‘The Bear’ Season 4, Episodes 1-3: Let Carmy Cook

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Denis Villeneuve has been chosen to direct the next James Bond film and what a Bond movie from the acclaimed director might look like (1:00). Then they break down the first three episodes of ‘The Bear’ Season 4 and talk about how, even though the show’s motto is “every second counts,” these episodes spent a lot of time spinning their wheels (17:26). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:28Chris Ryan?

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• 1:03Speaker 02

  Stand up and walk now.

• 1:06Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me on the other line, this was not one of his preferred destinations. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:19Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know what you're talking about. I'm bringing that-

• 1:21Chris Ryan?

  That's a little Ace Bailey humor, dog.

• 1:23Andy Greenwald?

  Come on, I'm bringing that zomentum. You can't stop me today. We got this.

• 1:28Chris Ryan?

  Zomentum?

• 1:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:31Chris Ryan?

  You're edge combing?

• 1:33Andy Greenwald?

  No. So, so for our listeners who tuned in to hear our thoughts on The Bear season four, we are somehow trying to triangulate the NBA draft last night-

• 1:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43Andy Greenwald?

  And the New York Democratic mayoral primary.

• 1:45Chris Ryan?

  First time? First time here?

• 1:47Andy Greenwald?

  Just saying. I don't think we pulled it off, but maybe, maybe we'll get there.

• 1:51Chris Ryan?

  Greenwald, it's great to see you, man. Uh, I'm still in Portland. Uh, we're going to talk about the first three episodes of the first, of the fourth season of The Bear today. Got a couple of news and notes. Um, you look beautiful. What's going on with you? Anything? Update me.

• 2:05Andy Greenwald?

  Literally not a thing. I got nothing. I, I'm just, I'm just, you know, watching YouTube clips of my guys around walking up and down Manhattan, being like-

• 2:15Chris Ryan?

  So you're just, you're a day one, right? You're just, you're, you're all in.

• 2:18Andy Greenwald?

  No, I'm a skeptic and I'm like, yes, it feels good to feel good about things.

• 2:22Chris Ryan?

  I agree. I agree.

• 2:25Andy Greenwald?

  Like, you look, Kaia knows I'm a big supporter of the youth vote.

• 2:29Chris Ryan?

  That's true. Yeah. If you ran for face of the ringer, I think you would definitely win the youth vote.

• 2:33Andy Greenwald?

  I would win the youth vote, but then-

• 2:35Chris Ryan?

  Too bad nobody young engages with the ringer.

• 2:38Andy Greenwald?

  Also, here comes Governor Ryan coming in with his like scolding centrism.

• 2:42Chris Ryan?

  I lost, man. I lost.

• 2:44Andy Greenwald?

  I want to see the machines. I don't know.

• 2:46Chris Ryan?

  Van gave Mal the tiara. I can't do anything about it.

• 2:49Andy Greenwald?

  Can you explain? So for people who don't know about this, there was a-

• 2:51Chris Ryan?

  So Van had started a Twitter thread and like an online poll and all this stuff. And he was just entertaining himself where he was like, who is the face of the ringer? The face of the ringer is Bill, but who is the face of the ringer? And he was going through it and according to Van, I, it was me. And so he had me on Higher Learning. It was a delightful experience. Unfortunately, Rachel wasn't there, but when Rachel-

• 3:17Andy Greenwald?

  She didn't know who you were.

• 3:18Chris Ryan?

  No, I mean, I gotta say, I really, really like, Rachel is like an incredible podcaster. And then she was on, when she came back to Higher Learning on Monday's show, they crowned the face of the ringer. And Rachel, like with really sound reasoning, was like, I don't really know Chris. So how can Chris be the face of the ringer?

• 3:37Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 3:37Chris Ryan?

  Now, she also didn't really seem to know Mal, but that's okay.

• 3:41Andy Greenwald?

  So she ducked your appearance on the podcast, then was like, I do not know this man?

• 3:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:45Andy Greenwald?

  Also, what would have happened if you hadn't said, Bill is the face of the ringer? Like a small, small electric shock?

• 3:53Chris Ryan?

  No, I don't think so. I don't think anything. Bill, Bill, actually, if he listens-

• 3:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 3:59Chris Ryan?

  Has a really good sense of humor about himself.

• 4:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. If he listens to what?

• 4:03Chris Ryan?

  Like, for instance, make a joke at his expense. Let's experiment.

• 4:06Andy Greenwald?

  If he listens to this podcast? What was the time-

• 4:09Chris Ryan?

  Every once in a while, he does.

• 4:10Andy Greenwald?

  It's true. What was the time he listened out of like the last 200 shows? It was, it was a little perverse.

• 4:15Chris Ryan?

  It was about the studio.

• 4:16Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right.

• 4:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:18Andy Greenwald?

  Listen, I love working here. I love the young and the olds.

• 4:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Speaking of studios, Andy. Amazon slash MGM have chosen the next director of the James Bond franchise.

• 4:28Andy Greenwald?

  I'm really eager to talk to you about this.

• 4:30Chris Ryan?

  And it's, it's a bit of a shocker. Uh, it's going to be Denis Villeneuve, one of my favorite filmmakers. The new producers, uh, who took over for the broccoli family, um, are David Hayman, who is a legendary producer and is for full disclosure, working on the Harry Potter series that Andy is working on.

• 4:48Andy Greenwald?

  That's true.

• 4:49Chris Ryan?

  And Amy Pascal, who people obviously know from her production work, but also from the Sony leaks.

• 4:56Andy Greenwald?

  And from Catherine O'Hara's loving.

• 4:58Chris Ryan?

  And Catherine O'Hara's loving thinly veiled portrayal of her on the studio this last, uh, this last season. And, um, this has been a horse race that is now kind of overshadowed who will play the next Bond, has been who will direct the next Bond. And for a little while there, it sounded like Alfonso Cuarón was very close to signing on. In fact, I think there were some reports that it was like, it'll be done and announced this week, next week, whatever.

• 5:26Andy Greenwald?

  There was even some, if I, if I, tell me if I'm incorrect about this, but there was some speculation that David Hayman's involvement was

• 5:33Chris Ryan?

  Nailed it on. Yeah.

• 5:34Andy Greenwald?

  Of Cuarón's involvement because they have a long history of working together from the third Harry Potter movie through Gravity and et cetera, et cetera.

• 5:41Chris Ryan?

  For sure. So then, uh, that kind of went quiet. I think actually even there was some sort of like Alfonso Cuarón has taken himself out of the running here. It looked like, uh, there was a bake off and people were coming in and, and doing their pitches, doing their takes on the franchise. Some names thrown around included Edward Berger, uh, who did All Quiet on the Western Front and Conclave.

• 6:06Chris Ryan?

  Paul.

• 6:07Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I want to talk about these.

• 6:08Chris Ryan?

  King, Paul King.

• 6:09Andy Greenwald?

  Paul King, who did.

• 6:10Chris Ryan?

  Paddington guy.

• 6:10Andy Greenwald?

  Paddington and Wonka.

• 6:12Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, Edgar Wright, who obviously, uh, did Baby Driver and Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz, et cetera, et cetera. And it would seem like it was kind of all up in the air. And then out of nowhere. Like sort of rumored, from rumor to announcement was very brief, it seems like Denis Villeneuve, who is currently in pre-production, I think, on the third Dune film, has announced that he is going to be the new director of the Bond franchise for at least the first film. And that gave a very warm and loving biographical statement about how some of his earliest best memories of cinema are going to the James Bond movies. What did you make of this announcement?

• 6:53Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I want to know what you think, first of all, because I agree with you. I think Denis Villeneuve is one of the greatest filmmakers currently working, and he certainly proved himself to be the greatest curator of large-scale IP that we have. In some ways, like the inheritor to what Nolan was doing with the Batman movies. I, tell me what you think first, because you are more of a cine maniac than I am.

• 7:19Chris Ryan?

  Excited for Bond, disappointed for Denis.

• 7:21Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, yeah.

• 7:22Chris Ryan?

  So I think he will make an awesome James Bond movie. But I wish, I wish that we, once he's finished Dune, the third Dune film and the next Bond film, the last five movies he will have made are all sequels to franchises.

• 7:37Andy Greenwald?

  That's including Blade Runner?

• 7:38Chris Ryan?

  Now, you could say, you know, David Lynch did Dune, but this is like very much Denis Villeneuve's take. It's not like he's referencing hardcore like David Lynch's film and it's just an extension of that. So in some ways, these Dune films are quote unquote an original work for him. They're very much in line with a lot of his visual obsessions. Like you can see things in Enemy that, and you could also see them in Dune. But my favorite period of Villeneuve's career was this extremely prolific and extremely diverse group of films that he did. Kind of starting after Al Sandee, where he makes like Enemy, Prisoners, Sicario, Arrival.

• 8:22Chris Ryan?

  And you're like, wow, what the hell, like we have a kind of Goth Spielberg on our hands or something. And so it's a little bit disappointing that he is now kind of the cure, the, the sort of docent for the museum of cinema.

• 8:37Andy Greenwald?

  I, I agree with that take. Like I, I mentioned Nolan before, and I mean this sincerely. I think that Villeneuve has the, the credibility and affection from audiences and the track record now to be a...

• 8:50Andy Greenwald?

  Black Swan like Nolan in that if he makes an original film, audiences will see it.

• 8:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:56Andy Greenwald?

  I wish, I mean, we don't have as many directors who are at that level where people will show up for the director.

• 9:04Andy Greenwald?

  I wish the very few that maybe have that banked could use it more.

• 9:09Andy Greenwald?

  I think that this, what this tells me also, look, from the corporate point of view, this is beyond a slam dunk. This is a huge, huge validation of Amazon's money spent of bringing on Hayman and Pascal to shepherd this. It's hard to imagine a better outcome. And I say this as a huge fan of Alfonso Cuarón and his more mainstream films. Villeneuve is more in step with the times right now in terms of getting people with a contemporary track record of getting people to the box office. So it's hard, if they got an Oscar nominated filmmaker to take over this franchise that, again, a year and a half ago, people were like, why even do Bond anymore? That's wild. That's a huge win.

• 9:52Chris Ryan?

  I do wonder whether or not, oh, go ahead. Sorry. I didn't mean to cut off the second half of your take.

• 9:56Andy Greenwald?

  No, the second half of the take is it is, again, smart stewardship, but it is a sign to me that they are leaning into the more contemporary last 20 years version of Bond, which is, like much of our large go entertainment, deathly serious. I love Villeneuve. I don't think there are many jokes in his filmography. I doesn't mean to say that I find, like, I don't find Dune punishingly heavy. I find it kind of ecstatic in its insane commitment to the bit. Like, I really, really enjoy it. It's a lively thing, even though it is enormous in scale.

• 10:32Andy Greenwald?

  But Bond is also, in addition to being dour, historically has been clever and sexy and slick and fun. And I kind of wish that, I just generally want a return to some of that in our entertainment. And I kind of wish that there had been a filmmaker brought on who has shown at least a facility for that type of storytelling.

• 10:54Andy Greenwald?

  That would have been voted down in the boardroom. I'm not saying that that's a universal take, but that is kind of, I do carry that.

• 11:01Chris Ryan?

  It's such a delicate line that the Bond franchise walks and there's so many different iterations of it that it's almost strange to talk about it as this monolithic thing. I mean, Sam Mendes' version of it is different than, Martin Campbell's version of it is different than any prospective version of it that Denis Villeneuve will come up with. The person who is rumored that I thought might have the balance of tongue-in-cheek humor with action set piece was Edgar Wright. But in terms of like, making these movies feel massive and important, they could not have gotten a better director.

• 11:36Andy Greenwald?

  I think of the contenders, so if I was gonna rank them, I mean, I think it was a, it's a no-brainer who they hired, but of the other people you mentioned who at least, you know, are likely to have been interviewed, right, it's Berger, Wright, and King. I think Edgar Berger would have done an amazing job.

• 11:54Chris Ryan?

  Very good job.

• 11:55Andy Greenwald?

  But I think that what he, I can assume, I think safely, is that it would be more of a Martin Campbell type of thing. Like, I think Edgar Berger is an incredible filmmaker who has, honestly, a rare facility for painting beautiful pictures in the service of whatever he's doing. You know, I don't know if I would call anything like Burgarian necessarily, other than it's always really well-made and really nice to look at. I think Edgar Wright would have been the worst choice here, only because he's very, very, very self-aware, kind of meta at times, and very glib. And I think it would have felt like cosplay Bond, like, doing the hits. And I think that one of the things that maybe, that I hope the inheritors of the franchise

• 12:39Andy Greenwald?

  understand is that at least in the public imagination, Bond has a little more gravitas and is like, for adults. I don't, I know nothing's for adults anymore, not even The Face of the Ringer, but I think, I think that that was important to try to maintain. You know I'm a Paddington guy. Paul King is incredibly British and incredibly visually creative. With a really good script, I think he would have done a pretty interesting job. I think that's the one that I'm most excited about, just to see what, what he would do in a different, playing in a different sandbox. But- I don't know. Did you see the news? I feel like you and I knew this because I don't know if it had been reported before or if he had told us this. But our old pal Tony Gilroy went public with his and Steve Soderbergh's pitch for Bond. Did you see this? We've talked about this.

• 13:22Chris Ryan?

  It was set in the 60s, right?

• 13:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, they joined forces and went into MGM at some point in the last decade plus and said, you do it in black and white in the 60s.

• 13:32Chris Ryan?

  It's cool. I mean, if anything, do you think that, do you want to see the Bond franchise get DCU'd? Where there's like multiple takes on Blofeld going on, you know?

• 13:45Andy Greenwald?

  No, I mean, I felt the most, I feel like it doesn't get enough

• 13:52Andy Greenwald?

  ink that like, that the last 10 years of Bond were like, actually, it's a unified theory of 007.

• 13:59Chris Ryan?

  Well, I love Commander Theory. I love that it's always been like multiple people playing, like, you know what I mean? Like, there's, there is like a unified theory of Bond out there that I enjoyed reading about, but I don't think it actually holds up.

• 14:10Andy Greenwald?

  Just make, just make one sick movie. You know what I mean? And hopefully that is the, that is the grief.

• 14:15Chris Ryan?

  They're not going to do that, though. They're going to make it like a new Bond. I bet it's going to be a young Bond coming into a 2025 highly digital surveillance state. The old, the new world order is cracking and something else is rising kind of thing.

• 14:32Andy Greenwald?

  Is this something else that's rising? The power of democratic socialism?

• 14:37Chris Ryan?

  James Bond.

• 14:38Andy Greenwald?

  Wall Street.

• 14:39Chris Ryan?

  James Bond making sure Cuomo gets elected as an independent candidate in the fall. It would be a fucking bummer.

• 14:46Andy Greenwald?

  Do you, the only rumor I saw for Bond was Aaron Pierre.

• 14:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I saw that that was some wish casting. Yes.

• 14:52Andy Greenwald?

  Wish casting, alright.

• 14:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:53Andy Greenwald?

  Do you have a guy?

• 14:54Chris Ryan?

  I, uh.

• 14:56Andy Greenwald?

  You watch a lot of British television. I don't know if you have a guy.

• 14:58Chris Ryan?

  I enjoyed Aaron Taylor Johnson in 28 Years Later immensely, and I think he, uh, he gave off some Bond fumes in, um, in Tenet. You know, like, I think he would be an interesting choice. Uh, 15 years ago, I would have said Tom Hardy, maybe 10 years ago, 12 years ago, I would have said Tom Hardy would be a great choice. I, I really do wonder though, if they've made such a brave, breathtaking kind of coup to get Villeneuve, maybe they will think equally outside the box with Bond and think equally outside the box with what kind of story they're going to tell. Cause this, the thing we have to remember is the Broccolis treated this like a Bentley.

• 15:41Chris Ryan?

  And it was like, you know, he took years and years of development and like they built up all this expectation around who was going to be hired to play the role. And it really was like the Olympics, you know, like it was like, here we go. Every five years, every four years, I know the Olympics are every four years, but like they built up to something. Amazon's going to want a quicker turn and they might want a multiplicity of story. Whether it's a money penny series or a Young Bond series or a Who was M series.

• 16:11Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I guess the, the worry then is keeping on Villeneuve that like Warner Brothers Discovery wanted a world of Dune stories.

• 16:19Chris Ryan?

  They sure did.

• 16:20Andy Greenwald?

  We got a show that definitely came out, but that did not feel, that was neither here nor there because it wasn't strong enough to stand on its own. And, you know, Big Denis was like, I'm, I'm busy. Basically I'm, I'm making the movies. So they, they, they weren't really talking to each other in any credible way. The only thing I'd say about casting is, um, I think it's important to remember how scandalous, as much as anything about casting can be scandalous. Daniel Craig's casting was, there were all those, there were all these like wailing and rending of garments over a blonde Bond. And also that he wasn't famous. Everyone, everybody wanted Clive Owen, you know, or, or at that moment, like whoever the hot person of the, of the day was. And here's the thing about the UK, and I'm not just saying this because I've spent time there recently.

• 17:06Andy Greenwald?

  There's so many fucking good actors. There are so many good actors. And I think the inclination to hire someone who has already been an action star is wrong. I think that the Daniel Craig lesson, if there's one to learn, is like, here's a phenomenal actor who's up for it and can become something that we hadn't seen before. And that would be exciting. And I think, again, because the way Villeneuve casts his movies and thinks about making them, I've ended this conversation with you feeling more optimistic than when I began.

• 17:36Chris Ryan?

  Well, I just hope whoever they pick, I think they should go, they should veer younger so that they don't run into the Daniel Craig, like, my body literally can't take this anymore.

• 17:46Andy Greenwald?

  I heard David Hayman was suggesting John Lithgow.

• 17:50Chris Ryan?

  That's, I can't think of a better way to end.

• 17:53Andy Greenwald?

  He's great.

• 17:54Speaker 00

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• 19:55Chris Ryan?

  All right, Andy, last episode, we talked extensively about like how we were feeling about the forthcoming season of the bear. We kind of reset the table about where things were in the third season. And the fourth season arrived and I suppose we could just say one thing here, which is that this is, I think from our POV, been a bit of an odd rollout. A pretty secretive, a pretty, like not a lot of, I think a fair, like, you know, some advertising, but I, I think I've met and bumped into and talked to multiple people in multiple cities who were like, bear's back?

• 20:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:32Chris Ryan?

  So I don't know whether or not there is a little bit of a, hey, it's the fourth season and this kind of, the show sells itself. I don't know whether there was secrecy around things that happened later in the season. I don't know whether or not this is just the way they prefer to do things with the show, but like, you know, it went up on servers yesterday, I think at 5 Pacific, which is, was a little earlier than it initially been stated, maybe? I'm not sure. And as it, when it went up, it went up just with episode one and a generic description of each episode, which was the sort of description for the season, like the chefs push forward or whatever. So I find it like a little bit strange that there wasn't more fanfare and that there

• 21:13Chris Ryan?

  wasn't more ceremony around what I think is like, you know, an award-winning, critically and commercially adored show.

• 21:22Andy Greenwald?

  It's very hard to read into it because we know nothing. This was treated like, like, you know, a nuclear enrichment program of level of secrecy. I-

• 21:35Chris Ryan?

  There's not a ton of secrecy going on around that right now.

• 21:37Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right. Great point. Yeah. Well, so maybe-

• 21:40Chris Ryan?

  Dudes are sharing.

• 21:41Andy Greenwald?

  Gotta, gotta update my refs. But, um, yeah, I don't know whether it's because, as we've mentioned numerous times, like, the cast is quite large, quite sprawling, and also quite busy, so they couldn't do a traditional promotional rollout. I don't know whether everyone involved is kind of scarred in some way from the less-than-enthusiastic response to season three slash the "but no, this isn't a comedy awards chatter campaign" that happened.

• 22:09Chris Ryan?

  That feels like a such a small stakes conversation.

• 22:13Andy Greenwald?

  It does. There's something that feels, um, it just, something felt a little bit off about the launch and maybe, I'm trying to not, I mean, I'm not trying to read anything negative into it. There's nothing negative to be read into a successful show coming back, you know, as we've mentioned many times, like, on schedule at the same time every year. Maybe on some level, there's just like a, "Look, the secret ingredient in this show is love." But also, the second secret ingredient is, we just put it out there. Like, we let the food speak for itself, basically. You know, that, the, season one also dropped with almost no fanfare because absolutely no one was checking for it and it found its people, it found its drive, and it found success.

• 22:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it was like, it was, it was, the only thing I could compare it to for myself was seeing Stranger Things. And that, that kind of feeling of like, "This show went up on a network, I'm gonna check it out, it's all there." I mean, obviously with Netflix, they do that. But that feeling of like, "I think this is a thing." And then midway through, you'd be like, "This is definitely a thing."

• 23:11Andy Greenwald?

  I, I wonder then, though, if on some level, the challenge that FX may have had in communicating this fourth season, isn't that hard to parse because at least through three episodes, I, I find it hard to explain this season. I find it hard to find a peg to hang a hat on about it.

• 23:30Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, would you jump into talking about it? So like, to be clear,

• 23:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, I think we, not to do more throat clearing, but I regret the way we are covering this show this season. I don't think that you and I are going to be perfectly aligned in terms of how we're feeling about the show, but I wonder if we would be closer if we had just said, we're going to watch these episodes over the next five, six days and then do a full season breakdown next week. I wanted to extend the feeling, you know, it's I wanted to make this more than a binge. I wanted to make it a three course meal at least. And I think we'll have some interesting conversations because of that. I watched ahead because actually I felt compelled to and also I was really curious about.

• 24:13Andy Greenwald?

  Well, guess someone's just swanning around the Pacific Northwest binge watching television shows. Okay. Anything else? You get any, get any Willamette Valley Pinot Noirs in while you're up there?

• 24:24Chris Ryan?

  No, but I did have a really nice Sancerre the other night.

• 24:31Andy Greenwald?

  Here we go. Did Sweeps recommend it?

• 24:33Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 24:33Andy Greenwald?

  Did he pair it with?

• 24:34Chris Ryan?

  No, it was a, it was a French bistro. It was really good.

• 24:38Andy Greenwald?

  This guy.

• 24:38Chris Ryan?

  Why don't we just get into the show?

• 24:39Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know if there's room for you in Zorran's New York.

• 24:41Chris Ryan?

  I was gonna say that this, this feels like a show that actually deserves like a complete review rather than, hey, we watched three episodes, here we feel.

• 24:50Andy Greenwald?

  That said, I kind of reject the, I, I'm, I, I love the show. I love the people involved in the show. I love the spirit of the show. I love having it to talk about and chew over and digest.

• 25:03Chris Ryan?

  But we shouldn't be making.

• 25:04Andy Greenwald?

  But I reject.

• 25:05Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 25:06Andy Greenwald?

  The idea that the way the season begins can be excused by what happens later. I have no doubt that there are going to be some wonderful surprises. I'm sure there'll be some guest stars and some touching feeling experiences and opportunities in filmmaking that is bravura and great. But.

• 25:24Andy Greenwald?

  I was, I was pretty stunned by how the season began.

• 25:29Chris Ryan?

  Well, yeah.

• 25:30Andy Greenwald?

  I want to be, I want to do my best to be generous, which is to say, the third episode, which is all I've seen, ends with an exceptional scene. At the end of the third episode, Carmy gets on the L, gets off the L.

• 25:46Chris Ryan?

  Spoilers for the first three episodes of The Bear, obviously.

• 25:49Andy Greenwald?

  And runs all the way to Claire's house. And there's a little funny business in the beginning about Kelly and what's his name, one of the facts. And then there's Molly Gordon, not in a haunting, you know, 90s alt-rock scored flashback, but actually there. And they talk about it. And they talk about it in a way that is pure Bear, like pure, uncut Bear. They basically yell at each other and then they both cry and then nobody's happy. And I loved it. It was, it was chaos menu, relationship edition. And it moved the show forward, it moved Carmy forward, it moved Claire forward.

• 26:32Andy Greenwald?

  Honestly, it's also where the third season should have ended. The strangest thing about the beginning of the season to me is that every second counts has become the motto of the show.

• 26:46Andy Greenwald?

  What's her, oh god, I forget that Sarah Ramos's character, who has now come over from Ever, repeats it almost as much as everyone else says the word chef.

• 26:55Andy Greenwald?

  It's very odd for a show that keeps telling you every second matters to frankly waste time as much as The Bear does now in its later iteration.

• 27:09Andy Greenwald?

  It is so languid. It is so hovering, circling, obsessed with the past, scene after scene of characters talking to each other about things they've already talked about in pairings we've already seen, that it is really disconcerting. I mean, my first takeaway, my first note was like, forget the argument about whether this is a comedy or not. It actually, through the first two and a half episodes, it's not a drama. A drama, by definition, is, and I'm quoting from the dictionary, "an exciting, emotional, or unexpected series of events." Nothing about this series of events is unexpected.

• 27:47Andy Greenwald?

  The fact that the bad review leads them to just sort of circling another deeper drain was really surprising to me. Now, I want to get into more specifics, like what's working, what's not working, what we're expecting, what we're not expecting. But I went back and I watched the third episode of every other season, just to be sure I wasn't crazy.

• 28:07Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 28:08Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I mean? And 103 begins with Carmy going to an Al-Anon meeting for the first time. So we're learning something about him.

• 28:16Chris Ryan?

  That's the Molly Ringwald moderated one.

• 28:19Andy Greenwald?

  And there's a speech about, you know, structures can change, but nothing is really different until thinking changes, you know, until you've removed the chaos. And like, that is a mission statement for the series. The problem is, we are seeing it illustrated now in the show. We're like, okay, the structure has changed. It is now a fine dining restaurant. They've removed the chaos. It's just quiet and order, but nobody's fixed because the thinking hasn't changed. And we are sitting in it now for the second straight season.

• 28:42Chris Ryan?

  Do you think that they, when you're talking about the drama part, are you also talking about maybe a lack of adherence to even the broadest strokes of what an episode is supposed to do?

• 28:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 28:58Chris Ryan?

  Because that, I think, was my central frustration with the first few episodes was like, why is this episode, why does this exist, right? Like, so like, maybe, and I don't like doing the like, hey, you should have done it this way stuff, especially with people who we like so much. Honestly, professionally and personally, like, I really like the people who are doing this.

• 29:20Andy Greenwald?

  Me too.

• 29:21Chris Ryan?

  Like, I think the episodes don't feel necessary, but also feel a little like, like, you're waiting for something really important to happen. And I can't tell if that's because we have brain fever and are like, we need to have like a reveal, a cliffhanger, a twist, a turn, a oh shit moment. Or if you're, what you're getting at is like, a kind of scene to scene repetitiveness, which I think, yeah, go ahead.

• 29:52Andy Greenwald?

  The show needs an editor, you know, or just a reframing. And so that's why I continue to harp on that point, that it does feel like 10 episodes got pushed into 20. We don't know that. We've never had that confirmed or denied to us. But it's hard to shake that feeling. I remembered episode 203 one way, and I bet you did too. I remembered Sidney's culinary tour of Chicago. That was one of the show's really first examples of leaning into non-actors, making it feel real and just giving the floor to beloved figures.

• 30:21Chris Ryan?

  And to be fair, that episode did actually lean into an idea of like, what if an episode of television could feel like what the way something tastes and also could document a creative exercise?

• 30:33Andy Greenwald?

  But I'm gonna blow your mind, Chris, because that's not even the spine of 203. That's how we remember it. 203, every character has a plot, like a television show. 203 begins with Carmy and Alan on again, so now we're seeing some structure. 103 to 203, he's in these meetings, except now he's participating. Also in 203, Carmy and Sidney are practicing dishes in his apartment. So we get a sense of experimentation and creativity and failure, because they make it too salty and they're spitting it out. And they're talking about Marcus's mom, and maybe they should send him to Copenhagen. So now we're laying seeds for where the story is going. There are more places for these people to go. Tina's in culinary school in that episode.

• 31:16Andy Greenwald?

  Richie has the first, maybe not the first, but has a long conversation with his daughter. It's the scene, it's the episode where he goes, Daddy does love Taylor Swift, he just needed a break right now, which is the truest thing this show has ever fucking said. So that's kind of the alchemy that I didn't even notice while it was happening that was missing, which is, it was bearing out all over the place. Sidney walking around the loop and tasting things and meeting people who are famous to the Storer family and to the fine dining aficionados of Chicago. Awesome. And it was exciting. It was like giving us little pops of Bourdain within a scripted story. But it also was just like meat and potatoes, or I guess I should say beef sandwich level. TV making.

• 32:01Andy Greenwald?

  And this season's episodes, it's not just that everyone is just kind of in a fugue state. It's that it only snaps into focus every so often. So the first episode begins with, I mean, I gotta say it, this kind of... I think it's a crutch of expressing interiority when characters watch other movies and shows to explain how they're feeling. So Carmy's watching Groundhog Day and later is like, "Do you ever feel like you're stuck in something?" And I'm like-

• 32:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but I think actually that, I understand that, why you would say that was a little on the nose, or, but I do think that the major theme of the season goes on to be, how do you not only sustain a certain level of equality that you're trying to hit every night and answer whatever, like nagging voices in your head about being great or being perfect or all these other things, but simply how do you go to the same place every day with the same people and do the same thing and make it feel like anything but a grind? And what are the things that you actually value? Is it performance or is it people?

• 33:05Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I think that's very well said and I, and I see it. It's just that it took, I think it's eight, nine or 10 minutes into the episode when, when Oliver Platt's uncle and Brian Koplman's computer show up with a big clock and was like, "Okay."

• 33:18Chris Ryan?

  The season is starting now.

• 33:19Andy Greenwald?

  The season is starting now. Same thing happened in, in, in the second episode. You know, they, it's like, I think it's in the second episode, there's just like a long hangover from that service and then Richie goes to sleep and then the episode starts. You know, again, if you're, if you're one of the people who stayed up all night watching it, that kind of ebb and flow, you might just not notice.

• 33:41Chris Ryan?

  So that was the experience that I had was when I was watching, I found it really easy to click next, even though the first two episodes, I agree with you. I was like, "This is challenging. This is challenging. I feel like we're still," and I think part of it is the, even though The Bear is one of our few regularly reappearing series that hits a mark every year, it almost felt like this show is starting the next day, but I've waited a year for this to happen. So there hasn't, there isn't actually, I think it's been a little bit of time since the review came out, like maybe, no, actually it hasn't. Because in the first episode, he's still looking at the paper-

• 34:19Andy Greenwald?

  It's moments.

• 34:20Chris Ryan?

  That he had on the L.

• 34:21Andy Greenwald?

  It's moments and, and Sydney's still, you know, dodging calls from her father and from, and from-

• 34:27Chris Ryan?

  Shapiro.

• 34:27Andy Greenwald?

  Shapiro, my guy from Shappie's Pretzels.

• 34:31Andy Greenwald?

  What I also bumped on, and I'm not just, this isn't just a recitation of grievances. But what I notice sometimes also is the filmmaking is so good. Michael Mann's blue light shot through everything. You know, the ability of these actors to give so much with so little. And side note on that, when Karmie finally has that conversation in Three, I'm like, oh shit, Jeremy Allen White's a good actor when he talks.

• 34:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:00Andy Greenwald?

  You cannot hang, you could hang a lot on his hangdog expression, but let him cook. Let, literally, like, let these people act.

• 35:08Chris Ryan?

  Let Karmie cook.

• 35:09Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I mean?

• 35:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:12Andy Greenwald?

  There was this moment in 402 where, in an attempt, I think, to sort of gin up momentum, or a feeling of something moving forward, something happening, Chris Storri intercuts three storylines, you know, and it's cut with some of the familiar freneticism of other seasons. The things that he's intercutting, though, are Sugar being mad about Francied Fac, who I had forgotten about as a thing, and I just assume is now this is a breadcrumb for some stunt casting later in the season. Sweeps's wine education from who I assume to be a real sommelier in Chicago. Again, that's one of those moments that you kind of bump on where it's like, a moment

• 35:54Andy Greenwald?

  ago, they're talking about how they're gonna get a Michelin star, and then the next scene, the sommelier's like, what's Pinot Noir? Like, again, I understand these people all have, like, fantastic journeys to go on, and I love that, but I'm having trouble sorting it all out. And then the third scene is Sid and Karmie talking about the vendors and the terms and Apple metaphors.

• 36:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, right. Each, that comes after Tina is at the farmer's market.

• 36:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 36:16Chris Ryan?

  And the pallets are getting smaller and smaller.

• 36:17Andy Greenwald?

  Each of those scenes on their own is not particularly compelling. The sum of their parts wasn't compelling either. Do you know what I mean? So I think the frustration that you're hearing in my voice was just the fact that... Every second counts, but we burned hundreds of them to get to what felt like the start. I'm never going to begrudge having this show in my life because even within the things that I'm complaining about, there are beautiful moments, like Marcus's stunning dessert that he makes, you know, or just these feelings like I am, I am, I am not a machine, like Richie making magic happen.

• 36:56Chris Ryan?

  You are not computer?

• 36:57Andy Greenwald?

  I am not computer. Richie making magic happen for people in the dining room.

• 37:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think three really is, is a significant leap ahead than one and two. And part of it is like, I am susceptible to sentimental creation of fake snow for a child or young woman who is recovered from cancer. Like, I definitely am open to that. My heart is open to that. As well as the aforementioned Carmy Claire conversation that I thought was quite, was just really, really well rendered. I thought that Molly, Molly Gordon and Jeremy Allen Wright were both really great in that scene. Started off with the kind of fax humor. Has like that cool moment where she's like, I have to go inside for a second so she can pull her shit together.

• 37:43Chris Ryan?

  You know, I think she's open to him, but is like, I am not here to like fix you and, and be the sounding board for your, your therapy. Like, do you fuck this up? I, I like, I really, I liked three, I think. I think I liked three a significant amount. There were things like, I do wonder how a, a restaurant that's running out of money can afford to hire the staff of ever?

• 38:04Andy Greenwald?

  Six more people?

• 38:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, right.

• 38:06Andy Greenwald?

  Totally. But there are, I think a lot of this comes down to, not just the engine of the car you're driving, but what kind of car you're driving. Like Forks, a masterpiece, turns Richie from an absolutely unfixable dirtbag into a dude who wears suits and is, you know, is, is, can run a restaurant worthy of a Michelin star. It does it with such humor, such heart, such efficiency, that your heart soars. Because we want to believe in fantasy. Like, I don't want this show to be realistic. Like, every season-

• 38:45Chris Ryan?

  Well, he also becomes the man he wants his daughter to see him as.

• 38:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and every season, like, certain, you know, magazines and newspapers and websites, like, "Okay, round up real chefs to talk shit about the show." Like, I do not care. The verisimilitude is not what appeals to me about the show. I think that what is accurate to human experience in a way that I think is not unique, but special with The Bear, is I think it is one of the most kind-hearted and generous shows about the fallibility of human beings in the way we are to each other. I think that scene that I'm harping on with Three, because I found it really wonderful, yeah, the acting is just, they're both so good, and they're so natural, and they're so attuned to each other. But the line that I love about it is when, you know, because I think to some degree,

• 39:31Andy Greenwald?

  right, Carmy is thinking this is like a big say-anything moment. Like, he's gonna do a big dramatic gesture-

• 39:37Chris Ryan?

  I'm gonna knock on the door, and then this is gonna be fixed, because I made the first step.

• 39:40Andy Greenwald?

  Of his heart, and he's gonna be forgiven. And his stumbling, when he realizes, what has he gotten himself into? He can't plan a structure for this. This doesn't work on the Brigade system. He can't say, you know, "Do it faster, chef." This is another person with her own autonomy in the scene. That's wonderfully illustrated and wonderfully played, and then he sort of, he does, for him, he emotes, and he's like, it's just so loud, you know? And then what Claire says that I loved is, "It's loud for everyone." And it's just this acknowledgement that everyone is carrying a screaming Italian beef sandwich shop in their head at all times, you know?

• 40:17Chris Ryan?

  I kind of wonder whether or not that's something to keep in mind going forward. This is actually not something that is indicated in future episodes, but whether or not the sort of idea- Behind this season to some extent is undoing the main character syndrome of Carmen. Or like whether the idea is essentially like the first season especially. Everybody is orbiting Carm and is like, he's so crazy, but he's so talented and I just, we definitely need to keep this place alive. And then it's the second season is turning it into a fine dining establishment and whether or not it will be approved of, but it's still about Carmy's brilliance and whether Carmy can take his traumatic experiences from some of the greatest restaurants

• 41:02Chris Ryan?

  in the world and turn it into like a homegrown rock star restaurant. And then you get to the end of that season and that review is kind of like, it's okay. There's some issues, but it's also got some, some dalliances with brilliance. And maybe this season is less about whether or not he can do both, whether he can make a family run brilliant restaurant and more about whether or not he sees the other people around him as main characters too.

• 41:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. And I think you can, again, you could see it like everyone who made, the first two seasons of The Bear are some of the best television of the decade. Everyone who made those seasons is still working on The Bear. Like they didn't forget how to do it. I think whether they bit off more than they could chew, or again, they tried to spread things too thin, or you know, certain, a love of fine ingredients, expensive ingredients, like extra time or extra location days or guest stars. Maybe people fell in love with that. We don't really know. But we'll unpack it as we go across the season, but people know how to do those things. So they still know how to do the things that were so good in the first two seasons. So I'm noticing,

• 42:10Andy Greenwald?

  of course, when in one and two, Carmy is noticing Sid and noticing how inessential he may be now in her ascension. And he says, this dish is perfect. And he sees how fast she's doing things, you know, and he steps back, or he notices the lengths that his floor crew will go to help people. You know, that's there, but man, editing is such a powerful tool.

• 42:36Chris Ryan?

  I know. But it's, is the reverse of that, and I'm asking, I'm not saying it. I'm, I'm, I'm wondering if the reverse of that is Forks where.

• 42:49Chris Ryan?

  A character goes through a complete and total transformation in this course of like 20 minutes. And you're like, now Richie is the greatest maître d' of all time and the greatest front of house person of all time. Because he had like a month of good nights at ever.

• 43:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 43:04Chris Ryan?

  Versus the actual time spent of watching Carm watch other people.

• 43:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 43:10Chris Ryan?

  And maybe start to, yeah, but that might not be entertaining television.

• 43:13Andy Greenwald?

  Here's the thing, everyone involved in the show is so smart that sometimes the things that I'm pointing out. They're like, yeah, that's the point.

• 43:19Chris Ryan?

  That's the point.

• 43:20Andy Greenwald?

  One of the things that is, yeah, that's the point is that the bear, the restaurant is soulless. And kind of dead and creepy on the inside, right? Compared to the sometimes joyous, sometimes profane chaos of Mikey's.

• 43:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the place that Tina walks into in the third season.

• 43:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 43:38Chris Ryan?

  The way her flashback episode.

• 43:39Andy Greenwald?

  The place that Sid is working in in the first season, you know, we, we, we see that. We, I, we all understand that one of the most, one of the clever compelling things about the show is that the restaurant space is Carmy's brain made manifest. Where he's like, I will clean this up, just like I've tried to fix myself. I will fix this up through rigor and structure and repetition and then I'll be fine.

• 44:05Andy Greenwald?

  The problem is we've all now caught up to this, that he's not fine and this isn't fine. And we caught up to it around episode eight of season three. And now he is still just sort of sitting there staring, stewing, thinking about it, noticing, should I smoke a cigarette? Maybe not. Oh, Sydney's good at this. I'm going to touch the door of the fridge because I remember that's where I broke up with, you know what I mean? It's like every, even his run with the Love and Rockets song playing is super long. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of like, a lot of physical movement going on to get him to that place. I, I, I think we're just, I think we're, I, I just think he's stuck. It's been beautifully rendered and at least for the last like three episodes of the last season, three episodes of this season, we're stuck too.

• 44:50Andy Greenwald?

  Doesn't mean we can get unstuck.

• 44:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:52Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I think that if the show waved the checkered flag on some of these storylines, things would move real fast.

• 44:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 45:00Andy Greenwald?

  But it's just.

• 45:02Chris Ryan?

  It's pitched it to, the earlier seasons are pitched at such a great intensity that it's hard to imagine this being.

• 45:09Chris Ryan?

  A workplace dramedy in a traditional sense of like, we're just gonna, and honestly, these people are so articulate, the characters are so articulate about their emotional states that it is not actually, you know, hey, did you watch the Bulls last night? Like, I don't know what they're doing. You know what I mean? Like, did you, did you go see Sinners? Like, nobody is talking like a normal person. They're all talking about their feelings all day long at work and what work means to their feelings and how the two shape one another. So there is a degree of, of, this is appointment television, you know, like, this is the most important parts of these people's lives, but you are making the show in such a way where it's like, that's every single day for these people. So how

• 45:53Chris Ryan?

  do you make it a sustainable and entertaining show going forward?

• 45:57Andy Greenwald?

  What, I think that's very well said. What if, I guess the thing I would, I want to go back to your point about main character syndrome.

• 46:07Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 46:07Andy Greenwald?

  And I, you know, you've watched ahead, so I want, I hope this isn't, I don't want to overly tax your brain in terms of spoilers, but one does get the sense, both on a story level and honestly, as an audience member, that Carmy's got to go. That like, maybe he's the cork stopping up this whole thing right now. Because if he, if he and his psychology were removed from this restaurant at this point, it's a completely different thing about, you know, once again, scrappy people trying to make it on their own, not an insanely walled off perfectionist floating above everyone, demanding that they transcend earth and time to get to his level.

• 46:50Chris Ryan?

  Can I ask a question to your question?

• 46:52Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 46:52Chris Ryan?

  Would you feel that way if Jeremy Allen White wasn't becoming a pretty big movie star?

• 46:57Andy Greenwald?

  Like, is part of my question because I want to give him the freedom to do Born to Run 2 Electric Boogaloo?

• 47:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:03Andy Greenwald?

  No, I mean, I-

• 47:07Andy Greenwald?

  He's so, part of it is the frustration of he, he's acting, the character's in a straitjacket and through three episodes, he's acting in a straitjacket. Until that scene, he doesn't do anything. Like, he's not yelling, he's not even, he and Richie aren't even yelling at each other anymore.

• 47:22Chris Ryan?

  No, I mean, I actually really liked the Richie and him scene. I believe that's in two.

• 47:27Andy Greenwald?

  At the beginning of two, when Richie's locking up.

• 47:30Chris Ryan?

  And he's like, I'm gonna lock the door, is that gonna interrupt your moping? And then he's like, is this performative? And Carm can't just, he can't, he just gets to the edge of being able to start talking about it. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of this season is about the things that we can't tell each other. You're right. Normal restaurants, by the way, do this. Where it's like, it's the vision of a central chef, who then gets it to a level of success and turns it over to the staff.

• 47:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 47:58Chris Ryan?

  And goes on to become the creative figurehead of multiple restaurants. I mean, that's what Chang did. You know, like, that's what lots of people have done. Maybe that's where this is going. I don't know, because I have not finished the season. And that has not come up in my viewing yet.

• 48:12Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I think that, um, yeah, it, you know, the other moment that stood out to me is that there is a very lovely Tina and Carmy scene.

• 48:24Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's in two.

• 48:28Chris Ryan?

  About.

• 48:31Andy Greenwald?

  And what it is, it doesn't matter, I think it's in two. And she's like, I didn't sleep last night because I had a fight, and this is what happened in the fight, and this is what happened in the morning, and now I'm here. And I'm like, show us the fight. Like, take us into the active lives of the characters. There's, there is a thing that you can get away with to a degree that then suddenly has diminishing returns. And it's the talking about the thing that was interesting, not showing it, and telling, not showing. And, I mean, even the season begins that way. And it's to be forgiven, because like, again, anytime Bernthal and Jeremy Allen White are together, I'm like... Is Heat 2 going yet? Like, what are we doing? Like, these are-

• 49:11Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 49:11Andy Greenwald?

  These guys are awesome. But do you remember the tenor of that conversation? Was circling the same drain yet again, except this time it's like, "Remember that one place we used to go to all the time?" And he's like, "Yeah, I remember that one place we used to go to." "Show me the place." Or don't, like, telling me about shared memories to make me feel something, to me as a viewer, is the same as having a character watch a movie about how he's feeling. It's like so many different layers of remove. When, and I think that I'm bumping on it particularly in the case of this show, because the glory of the Barrett is-

• 49:46Chris Ryan?

  Because Sidney doesn't come in and say, "Hey, I once had a day where I went all around Chicago and had all these different foods."

• 49:51Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly.

• 49:52Chris Ryan?

  And that's what eventually inspires this scallop.

• 49:55Andy Greenwald?

  The glory of the show is the immediacy.

• 49:57Chris Ryan?

  I get that. I get that.

• 49:58Andy Greenwald?

  When Carmen says, "It's noisy up here." We have seen how noisy it was at the original Beef Restaurant. We have seen how noisy it was in the best kitchens in the world. Well, not the best kitchens, that's not noisy. But we've seen how noisy it is at his kitchen, at his dining room table in Phish's.

• 50:15Chris Ryan?

  Yep.

• 50:15Andy Greenwald?

  Right? So we know the noise. And we bring that to bear when the character is confessing something. And that's, I mean, that's the beauty of serialized, long-form television storytelling, right? So, it's just, it's interesting. Like, I think that, you know, hopefully when we get to talk to Chris Dorr again, I mean, he's a filmmaker first. And I think that he likes experimenting. And there's nothing wrong with that.

• 50:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, I think it took me a little while, but I feel like,

• 50:45Chris Ryan?

  at least from my visceral reaction, that a lot of this season is shot at a much closer, much more close-up angle. Like, it's focused way more on faces than body movement, or the idea of people gliding around each other. There's actually a scene, not even talking about what it's about, but one of the scenes that jumped out at me, and I think later in the season, is when- Karmie is talking to one person in the kitchen and then turns and the camera just pans to the next conversation Karmie has in the kitchen. It's not acrobatic, it's not in some sort of chaotic flashbang way. But I was like, oh, all three of these people are in the same space and they're having two conversations at once.

• 51:29Chris Ryan?

  And it's not like a fax thing where like all the fax stuff always happens like kind of in an alley, or Richie and Jessica are usually in this office, or Natalie is often on the phone. And there's like a degree of like, not recycling it, but just like, this is how I'm shooting these people and this is where they're kind of, I'm really focused on their faces and their faces exhibiting this emotion. I like people moving in space, you know? Like you're kind of saying, like, I like to see it rather than just be told about it. I like to watch people dance around one another on a stage as much as I like to see the contours and the scars and the eyebrow twitches of characters. It's, we're also, you know, we are talking about TV that's being executed at a very

• 52:14Chris Ryan?

  high level. Technically, the music remains some of the best music ever made. They use a lot of it. Yeah, you know, I mean, there are so many great needle drops. I'm excited though, I mean, after the, I think that, I think that this conversation is going to evolve. I don't think we're just going to be repeating the same points as we talk about this.

• 52:31Andy Greenwald?

  I'm so excited to hear that. I think the magic of most of the things that I care about, whether it's filmmaking, art, food, is a collision between chaos.

• 52:41Chris Ryan?

  Democratic socialism.

• 52:42Andy Greenwald?

  Democratic socialism, that's actually a very good point. Organizing versus governance is a collision between order and chaos. And I think this show needs more chaos. I think the chaos has to come back, not in the form of like agonizing over Karmie's menu, but in terms of the messiness of actually being alive outside of the circumstances you can control. Outside of that ticking clock that is also just an artificial, you know, structure that they're now existing in. And the end of three reminded me what the show can do when it gets there. So I, I'm very eager to keep going and not just because like, you know, I can see the runtimes exploding around episode sevens, that's clearly.

• 53:24Chris Ryan?

  So that's what I think we should probably do is the next batch we should do includes seven.

• 53:29Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, so four, Monday.

• 53:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, four, five, six, seven.

• 53:34Andy Greenwald?

  Four, five, six, seven. So you're asking me to watch four episodes of television?

• 53:39Chris Ryan?

  I'm not asking you to watch Gilded Age.

• 53:41Andy Greenwald?

  I want you to tell me about Gilded. We didn't even do that today. Maybe we'll do that on Monday. I want you. I texted Chris this morning and I said, Chris, Wolf of Wall Street, Penny stocks me about Gilded Age. Call me.

• 53:54Chris Ryan?

  Can I interest you in Cynthia Nixon joining the temperance movement?

• 53:57Andy Greenwald?

  This is what I'm saying. I need, I need to be moved on this, you know, I am gettable. I am a mark.

• 54:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:04Andy Greenwald?

  So I need you to do that. You need to, you need to be your best sharp and make the sale. Maybe you'll do that Monday.

• 54:10Chris Ryan?

  You know, what, what Gilded Age does well, that I almost wonder whether or not we could like cross pollinate and get a little of this in the bear is they do, they make the littlest, littlest things seem like the Wizard of Oz is happening, you know, like where they're like, this guy is, is working on an invention of a new kind of clock and like 18 people are getting involved in this process. Or, you know, uh, at the last season was largely about who got what box at what new opera theater.

• 54:41Andy Greenwald?

  Oh.

• 54:42Chris Ryan?

  So, you know.

• 54:43Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. What was that thing you were saying before about how it work? Like they're just, you work with people every day, but there are things you can't say to them. Should we make this podcast a, are there things that you find, is there something you want to get off your chest? That you could only say maybe to Van, like I.

• 55:00Chris Ryan?

  No, not at all.

• 55:01Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 55:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Um, should we wrap up there? How are you feeling? Do you, do you feel like you want to end on a different note?

• 55:08Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I mean, I don't know. What do you want? Do you want to talk politics? You want to talk nuclear regimes? I, where, where, where, where's your head going?

• 55:16Chris Ryan?

  No, I do it like, you know, you, you have, you have this very full menu of bear stuff, but do, is there anything else you're, you're excited to watch coming up?

• 55:24Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, I want to see F1.

• 55:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 55:26Andy Greenwald?

  Have you seen it? You haven't seen it.

• 55:27Chris Ryan?

  No, I have not seen it. I'm going to try and see it in IMAX. So I'm, I gotta get back to Los Angeles for that.

• 55:32Andy Greenwald?

  They don't, they don't have IMAX up there?

• 55:33Chris Ryan?

  I think they do, but it's not close by.

• 55:36Andy Greenwald?

  They do, but they're only showing like John Tillman, you know, or whatever.

• 55:39Chris Ryan?

  They're only showing Brandon Roy highlights.

• 55:41Andy Greenwald?

  They're only, no, they're only showing like the Sight and Sound 10 best films.

• 55:46Chris Ryan?

  I wish. Uh, man, it's good to see you. Uh, we'll be back on Monday, uh, not in person, but then the following Thursday, right before, um, July 4th, we'll be back in person to discuss the end of the season of The Bear.

• 55:59Andy Greenwald?

  How many Michelin stars are we gonna give it? Oh, I know we didn't do. Oh no, that's for next week, sorry. I forgot which day it was. We have our barbecue playlist.

• 56:07Chris Ryan?

  Oh, we have our barbecue playlist.

• 56:08Andy Greenwald?

  We can debut that next week.

• 56:10Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 56:11Andy Greenwald?

  After you sell me in the Gilded Age. I mean, talk about getting people psyched for our next episode.

• 56:17Chris Ryan?

  Thanks to Kaya, thanks to John. We'll talk to you guys on Monday.

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• 56:59Speaker 06

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