Pod Insights The Watch ‘The Bear’ Drops a Secret Episode! Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ E3 and ‘Top Chef’ S23E9. About this episode Chris and Andy talk about the trailers released this week for 'Tony,' the Anthony Bourdain biopic from A24 starring Dominic Sessa (2:23), and Christopher Nolan’s ‘The Odyssey’ (12:05). Then they react to ‘Gary,’ the surprise prequel episode of ‘The Bear,’ starring and co-written by Ebon Moss-Bachrach and Jon Bernthal (18:27). Later, they discuss ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 3 (46:01) and ‘Top Chef’ Season 23, Episode 9 (51:43).
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Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald
Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady
Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy
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Transcript 12,522 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.
0:25 Speaker 01 Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.
0:37 Speaker 02 I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.
0:57 Speaker 01 Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.
1:24 Speaker 02 Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.
1:35 Chris Ryan? This episode of The Watch is presented to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime's same-day delivery has your back, getting you exactly what you need, fast and reliably, so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same-day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.com/prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply.
2:06 Speaker 04 I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.
2:12 Chris Ryan? Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio, like Odysseus in The Odyssey, call him daddy, it's Andy Greenwald. I thought you were gonna say...
2:26 Andy Greenwald? Like Odysseus in The Odyssey, he's American.
2:32 Chris Ryan? He speaks in your voice.
2:33 Andy Greenwald? It's absolutely right. This is Don Delillo's The Odyssey.
2:37 Chris Ryan? Greenwald packed show today. A couple of things at the top, we're gonna talk about the Tony trailer. Tony the movie, the Tony trailer, not the Tonys.
2:45 Andy Greenwald? Which we could also talk about.
2:47 Chris Ryan? We are gonna talk about television's surprise drop era, cuz that's what we're living in. Earlier this week, Gary, a standalone episode, although with a lot of, I think, prequel and sequel connective tissue.
3:00 Andy Greenwald? Sure.
3:01 Chris Ryan? To the bear was released out of nowhere on FX starring Ebon Moss, Backrack and Jon Bernthal. We're gonna talk about that. Widows Bay, episode three, we'll touch on. And of course, some Top Chef and maybe some After Dark. Some notes from the Waxahachie MJ Lenderman show that I went to, which was just a blast.
3:18 Andy Greenwald? Tune in. I think we should talk about the elephant in the room, which is, based on your behavior last weekend, your behavior last night, you're doing this podcast, you're going straight to LAX, you gotta catch a flight.
3:29 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
3:30 Andy Greenwald? People are saying you're reapexing.
3:32 Chris Ryan? I, I'm trying. I'm trying my best.
3:34 Andy Greenwald? People are saying it.
3:35 Chris Ryan? I'm trying. You only live once.
3:37 Andy Greenwald? But you're living twice. This is literally what you're doing.
3:40 Chris Ryan? That's what I'm saying. I don't wanna die and be like, man, I could've gone to that hardcore show.
3:46 Andy Greenwald? What about you and St. Peter and St. Peter's like, it's a damn shame you got gored on the security tranchon at that hardcore show.
3:53 Chris Ryan? That's right. Let's talk about Tony. How about that?
3:55 Andy Greenwald? Okay.
3:56 Chris Ryan? An interesting conversation topic for us. Andy, you've interviewed Tony Bourdain, Anthony Bourdain, Anthony Bourdain. You have, I think, have, it's fair to say, have relationships with the wider Anthony Bourdain universe in terms of people who worked at his production company, worked on his show, who have worked on books about Bourdain.
4:15 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
4:15 Chris Ryan? This is a new film coming this year from Matt Johnson, who directed BlackBerry, which I'm a huge fan of, and Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie.
4:24 Andy Greenwald? He did that too.
4:24 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
4:25 Andy Greenwald? People love this guy.
4:25 Chris Ryan? Matt is like a really good filmmaker. And it is because of that, and it is because of Dominic Sessa, who I really like as a performer, and Leo Woodall, who I like as a performer, and Antonio Banderas, who looks very activated in this trailer for Tony, and Stavi and Amelia Jones, who's so great in Task, that I am. Very enthusiastic about this movie, even if the trailer kind of gave Deliver Me From Nowhere vibes.
4:52 Andy Greenwald? I see. Well, do you think, was that your takeaway?
4:56 Chris Ryan? I think it was just, it didn't, this is about Anthony Bourdain's formative summer in Provincetown as he like goes from being a ne'er-do-well, you know.
5:07 Andy Greenwald? Purposeless ne'er-do-well to a ne'er-do-well with a career path.
5:10 Chris Ryan? Yes.
5:10 Andy Greenwald? And some skills.
5:11 Chris Ryan? And also a guy who wanted to be a writer who decided that he was going to be a chef. And then the chef decided he was going to be a writer and the writer decided he was going to be a television host. Who gave us so much in this world. But what did you think of the trailer?
5:25 Andy Greenwald? I thought it was refreshing and I think I feel quite optimistic about the movie because unlike the traditional biopic, or unlike many bloated, I think misguided or ultimately disappointing biopics. What Matt Johnson seems to have done here is carved out a single scoop of a complicated life to make a movie out of it, which I think is very different than being like, did you like Bob Dylan? Well, get ready. Or do you like?
5:55 Chris Ryan? I do like Bob Dylan and I like that movie.
5:57 Andy Greenwald? Okay, that's the bad example. Maybe the better example would have been the Springsteen.
6:02 Andy Greenwald? Where you attempt to get your arms around something, or even the Michael Jackson movie, which I don't think either of us have seen.
6:07 Chris Ryan? No, but Ethan Hawke did. Did you see that?
6:09 Andy Greenwald? I did see that.
6:10 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
6:10 Andy Greenwald? Do you have any, would you like to?
6:12 Chris Ryan? It seemed like he saw it from Oklahoma, so I imagine they're shooting.
6:15 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
6:16 Chris Ryan? Yeah, they're shooting Lowdown season two.
6:18 Andy Greenwald? Ethan Hawke.
6:18 Chris Ryan? He had a night off and.
6:20 Andy Greenwald? Ethan Hawke, NCR, make friends in any room. You know what I mean? Like, I think you play to any crowd.
6:26 Chris Ryan? Sure.
6:26 Andy Greenwald? Big rooms, small rooms, doesn't matter. You show up, you put on, you put on a show. I think this is a, I think it's a very successful.
6:37 Andy Greenwald? Lane for biography, which is let's just take a moment and make a movie out of it. And then if you want to interpolate things past that, fine, but we are there. From everything about it, from the promotion, from the framing of it, to the fact that Dominic Sessa is, has an intensity and an energy and I think, and we agree, a stark charisma. They're not making him look like Tony Bourdain in any way. And I think that's key. So I, I think the intentions are made very clear by the trailer, which is also smart marketing, that this is going to be a coming of age summer movie that many people may enjoy. And if you also, if you've read Kitchen Confidential, if you're a fan of Tony Bourdain and his work, there might be something that chimes with you, but that is not the goal here.
7:16 Chris Ryan? I can't remember, how significant is the Provincetown stuff in Kitchen Confidential?
7:19 Andy Greenwald? It's very significant. I mean, in his biography, it's very, very significant. And it's the, the way that he cooked throughout his life really didn't change that much. I think the two major factors were what he learned from the, I don't know if it's a composite character, if it's a one-to-one character that Antonio Banderas is portraying.
7:37 Chris Ryan? Where he has like a kind of a rabbi who's showing him the ways of the kitchen.
7:41 Andy Greenwald? Yes.
7:41 Chris Ryan? How to cook up a wine. Yeah.
7:42 Andy Greenwald? Exactly. And that, and then when he worked at Laot in New York, and it sort of went in a more French bistro direction. But like, from that point on, even when he was tooling around the world with Eric Repair, he was always saying like, I'm going to make a shellfish soup and a steak or whatever. Like it was all, it was very simple, but what, what the main thrust of his biography and what he presented to the world was always that this, the kitchen gave me direction. It gave me borders and guardrails and purpose and skills.
8:14 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
8:15 Andy Greenwald? That I then carried with me.
8:16 Chris Ryan? And the, the sort of thrust of BlackBerry is, you know, obviously about the sort of creation of this device.
8:22 Andy Greenwald? I never saw this. I heard it was good.
8:23 Chris Ryan? And it's like outsider rebellious spirit. It's more, I think spiritually true than factually true in terms of, like what you're saying. I think there are some composite characters. I think there are moments that are dramatized that are like, this didn't, we don't really know what happened in this meeting, or this didn't really happen, but it kind of happened ultimately. I, I think it's cool that they're doing that and I, you know, I know. Noticed that the Bourdain estate came out with a statement that was like, we decided that this was going to be like a way where we're going to allow Tony to be dramatized because we really believed in the vision of the people making the movie. So the only reason I like bucked up against it was because Amelia Jones is given the unfortunate task of asking,
9:08 Chris Ryan? are you a good person or not?
9:10 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
9:10 Chris Ryan? And Spoon Plays, and even though I love Spoon, they were not big in 1970s Provincetown as far as I know.
9:17 Andy Greenwald? I mean, don't put it past them. But yeah, I mean, I think the other thing that that tells me is the, it's interesting to think about this movie as the nexus of the two A24s in that A24 is known as the place that will encourage independently minded auteurs to stake out an artistic vision and express it. But they are also the company that's now making like Elden Ring, right?
9:44 Chris Ryan? And God bless them.
9:45 Andy Greenwald? So this, this may hit that sweet spot of like empowering Matt Johnson, who also gets a script. He's a, he gets a, his name on the, I don't know if he collaborated up with people or if he rewrote.
9:56 Chris Ryan? I think it was a script that he came in and then reworked, yeah.
9:59 Andy Greenwald? But that this was his vision for something and they wanted to work with him. But then also they are definitely aware that this has breakthrough potential, late summer, summer movie, could be appealing, coming of age kind of thing. It just, it just, you know what it seems like? Smart business all around. But, but often when you see something like this and you look at the cast and you named it, I'm like, okay.
10:16 Chris Ryan? Yeah, it's a great, it's a great ensemble. I was curious whether or not you want this at all. Like is somebody with, like me, has like a deep relationship to Bourdain's work and what he meant? Did you want to see a movie about him at all?
10:30 Andy Greenwald? No, but this is very, very smart. I think that in the years since his passing, his legacy has gotten, maybe this is true of any major figure, his legacy has become polarized in that there is a wider and wider gulf between the sanctity of the legend. And you see that in like Bourdain knife tattoos on every line cook from Brooklyn to Bangkok. Plus, you know, the sort of, like, much of what you see on reels of people being like, "I'm exploring the real hawker stalls of my small town outside of Leeds," or whatever.
11:06 Andy Greenwald? His quotes are, like, unironically written on the walls of restaurants that he probably would have hated. But the gulf between that legend and then the very messy reality, which has sort of leached out in fits and starts, and the disparity of the persona that was portrayed in various books,
11:24 Andy Greenwald? including the one by Tom, oh my god, I'm blanking on his name, his colleague who wrote In the Weeds, he came on the podcast to talk about it a few years ago, or Laurie Wolver's oral history, like, it's much messier.
11:36 Chris Ryan? Sure.
11:36 Andy Greenwald? And so, that-
11:37 Chris Ryan? He was always pretty con- like, he was really upfront about that, like-
11:41 Andy Greenwald? He was upfront about it, but even-
11:42 Chris Ryan? kitchens were like a place for criminals, like, he was always like fairly, like, it's funny to go back to early episodes of Bourdain TV-
11:49 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
11:50 Chris Ryan? And him be like, "We're the outlaws, and we are the drug addicts, and the petty thieves, and the criminals who can't get employed elsewhere, and we like jobs that get out at 1 a.m. and then we go out and party until the next day."
12:04 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
12:04 Chris Ryan? It was a more rock and roll outsider profession back then, at least that's the way it was presented.
12:10 Andy Greenwald? But also, when people tell you who they are, believe them. Because I think the other thing that was compelling, and I've certainly talked about this and felt this way, that like, to watch his various TV shows in the way that we watch TV otherwise, like, as a serialized TV show about the slow evolution and growth of a main character, was really meaningful. Because he did seem to, first of all, he 100% changed. He also just changed back and changed again and continued to evolve as real people do. But the narrative version of him was that he was sort of, you know, becoming more, the more he traveled, the less certain he became, the more open-minded he became, the more committed he was to making connections with people, and on a deep level, and using his platform to go to places that others were afraid to go, and, you know, and then starting a family and all these things.
12:52 Andy Greenwald? And then you read about how the more he traveled near the end of his life, the more agoraphobic he became.
12:58 Chris Ryan? Mm-hmm.
12:59 Andy Greenwald? And that he would essentially barricade himself in his Upper East Side apartment when he was home. And then when he would go out into the world, when he wasn't filming, he would be ordering KFC to the hotel because he just wanted familiarity, which like, I find it all heartbreaking and deeply, deeply human and also too fragile and rich, honestly, for a movie or a biopic to really capture.
13:22 Chris Ryan? Sure, and maybe that's good that he's not gonna try to.
13:25 Andy Greenwald? Exactly. I think it's really respectful and I think it's very, it's smart business, as we were saying, but I think it's also artistically more freeing and just bottom line respectful, which is why you feel, why you hear that the estate is supportive of this.
13:36 Chris Ryan? Your silence has been up until this point deafening about Tom Holland's American accent in the Odyssey trailer. Do you want to comment on that before we move on?
13:43 Andy Greenwald? I mean, I've seen all the Spider-Man movies.
13:47 Chris Ryan? But did you know that Spider-Man was also an ancient Greek character?
13:50 Andy Greenwald? I find, he does a good American accent. Talk to me about this because, okay, so I only learned about this as I learned about most things from you.
13:57 Chris Ryan? Two thumbs and doesn't give a shit if these guys are speaking an American accent.
14:01 Andy Greenwald? Before we say anything, I want to set the scene that I learned about this faux pas, this scandal via text from you and in my tired morning brain, I thought it said, how do you feel about Tom Hollander's American accent in the Odyssey? And I thought-
14:15 Chris Ryan? I don't know that I've ever heard Tom Hollander do an American accent.
14:18 Andy Greenwald? Well, I would love to and I feel like the fans of the White Lotus, season two deserve that much. You know, I just think it's time. Frankly, there ought to be room for an American Tom Hollander-
14:31 Chris Ryan? Tom Hollander playing Matt Damon's son would be one of the funniest things that ever happened.
14:36 Andy Greenwald? His older bitchy son would be awesome. Okay, so yeah, I don't, I don't actually care, which, what is the, so the debate is this isn't cool because some of these actors are English and also a generation, multiple generations of films have taught us that foreignness, even if they don't speak the actual language they were speaking historically, works if they're in an English accent, like the way we feel about Chernobyl and Star City.
15:04 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I, first of all, I think people just now probably associate anything that is period as English.
15:11 Andy Greenwald? Yes.
15:12 Chris Ryan? You know, which is fine because in some ways, like it is a very pleasant thing to hear, you know, it is watching Chernobyl is, and watching, like you said, the Star City trailer, like-
15:22 Andy Greenwald? Chernobyl, watching Chernobyl couldn't be more pleasant.
15:24 Chris Ryan? Couldn't be, I couldn't imagine a better way to spend-
15:27 Andy Greenwald? Press a spot of tea with it.
15:31 Chris Ryan? But I think people are also reacting to the colloquial nature of the language. It's not just that it's an American, but it seems like people are like doing a little bit of like Harvey Keitel, Brooklyn Judas from Last Temptation of Christ kind of stuff.
15:45 Andy Greenwald? Just say Jon Bernthal.
15:46 Chris Ryan? Which I fucking love.
15:47 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
15:47 Chris Ryan? Like, I think it's interesting to make a choice and also is pretty smart. And here's why.
15:52 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
15:53 Chris Ryan? We can all be kind of on X or lurking there or looking on.
15:58 Andy Greenwald? You meant the drug.
15:58 Chris Ryan? Just looking at the film Twitter discourse broadly and being like, well, they fucked that up. And well, how could, what's he doing here? It's like, you know who's gonna dig this? Everyone. And do you know what is gonna be nice for people when they go to this movie? If they're not deeply familiar with this text is hearing voices that sound familiar to them. And so that they can make a connection to a classical text.
16:21 Andy Greenwald? Yes.
16:22 Chris Ryan? And not be put off by it. Now, this is kind of reminds me of what happened when Kenneth Branagh first started doing filmed adaptations of Shakespeare plays. And everybody was like, either scandalized by the naturalistic speed with which he was doing the language. Or they were like, this is great because it's introducing a whole new generation of people to To Much Ado About Nothing and Hamlet and all these other great plays and Henry the Fifth or Henry the Fourth Part Two. It's all, I think it's a really smart decision. Now, I don't know that like, if you are a classics scholar, this might bother you. But I think, I think the movie looks incredible.
17:03 Andy Greenwald? But also shut up nerd. Do you know what I mean?
17:06 Chris Ryan? Get a job, sir.
17:09 Andy Greenwald? Come on. I don't get it at all. I think, I think your point is a good one, which is that it's, it's actually cool to take so-called sacred texts and things off the shelf and come around a little bit, play with them, see what's up. It's funny to think about as someone who saw Kenneth Branagh's Henry, like my parents took me to the Ritz to see Henry, Henry the Fifth. And I was like, cool, he has a big sword fight. Like, I didn't, you know, that was maybe the first Shakespeare I'd ever engaged with. To me, it still felt quite high, high class, high status.
17:38 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
17:40 Andy Greenwald? But I enjoyed the movie very much and I became a fan of Kenneth Branagh, having made it. I was certainly ignorant, as I imagine any of us in America were at that time of a certain age, that like Kenneth Branagh's story is that he is working class and Irish and like he is not to the man or born of this stuff. And so his act of democratizing Shakespeare, that's what it looked like in 1989. It might look different now, but there is a tradition of bringing the stuff down and making it workable and playable and seeing if the stuff, if it still moves.
18:09 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
18:09 Andy Greenwald? So the other thing that's weird to me about this, and maybe this is just Twitter discourse, is like Christopher Nolan is famous for two things. He is an exacting OCD control freak about every decision that makes it onto the screen and all of those decisions make a billion dollars. So he wasn't like, oh, interesting choice that Tom is making today. Let's, let's see how this goes.
18:32 Chris Ryan? Yes, I think he asked Tom Holland to sound like Matt Damon's son. I mean, it better to have Tom Holland do an American accent than have Matt Damon and Anne Hathaway and everybody do a British accent to match Tom Holland.
18:43 Andy Greenwald? Do you know what's interesting? Matt Damon, famously a girl dad. So it's kind of an incredible thought exercise to be like,
18:50 Chris Ryan? You know, he wasn't a girl dad.
18:51 Andy Greenwald? Be Matt Damon's son.
18:52 Chris Ryan? You know, Odysseus.
18:53 Andy Greenwald? No, he was not. He was not.
18:55 Chris Ryan? Is he Odysseus?
18:56 Andy Greenwald? It all would have changed if, if he had been. Did you, who was it? Oh, no, this was, the idea of Nolan being like, be Matt Damon's son and Tom Holland spending weeks just sipping his non-alcoholic beer brand, being like, but he doesn't have one, reminds me of that anecdote that Josh O'Connor put out about working with Spielberg.
19:12 Chris Ryan? Yes.
19:12 Andy Greenwald? Where Spielberg texted him, just undo the latch. And he was just like,
19:16 Chris Ryan? You've, you've fixed acting for me?
19:18 Andy Greenwald? You're a genius, Stephen. And then Stephen was like, that was for my handyman?
19:23 Andy Greenwald? Sorry. Great.
19:25 Chris Ryan? This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime's same day delivery has your back, getting you exactly what you need, fast and reliably, so that you can actually join in on the moment, instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.com/prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. Let's get into Gary. This is probably unexpectedly gonna be the meat of our episode today.
20:02 Andy Greenwald? The beef.
20:03 Chris Ryan? The beef of our episode. You know, so we had heard chirps about something coming. Something Eben Moss Bakarak, Jon Bernthal related coming. But even in our position of kind of needing to know about this stuff, just to program the show and also, you know, being very curious about the the comings and goings of of the cast and crew and creative team of the beef. This was still something of a surprise in terms of what day it came out. Currently Bakarak and Bernthal are on Broadway, appearing in Dog Day Afternoon together. A production that they, I think, for very, very much, you know, hand in hand, a part of bringing to life.
20:44 Andy Greenwald? With Steven Adley-Gergens.
20:45 Chris Ryan? Yeah, so a creative partnership there, clearly, and they co-wrote this episode called Gary. I'll do a little bit of scene setting because I'm not sure, even if you haven't gotten a chance to see this yet.
20:57 Chris Ryan? It's worth noting what kind of happens in the episode and where it falls on like the bear timeline, which is not exactly like the galactic timeline of Star Wars, but is it's, I thought it was noteworthy, which is basically, this is an episode that takes place about eight months after Phish's. So the big Christmas dinner apocalypse from season two.
21:17 Andy Greenwald? Yep.
21:18 Chris Ryan? In that episode, Gillian Jacobs's character, Tiff, talks about how she's got morning sickness. She's, she's sort of just announced that she's pregnant. In this episode, she is about to give birth. So I believe this takes place the day before Tiff actually winds up giving birth.
21:32 Andy Greenwald? It's certainly implied.
21:33 Chris Ryan? Uh, well, and Richie tells stories about this day in a couple of different ways over the course of the series The Bear. In the final episode of season four, he talks about it to Carmy and Sid. And in a very melancholic way, I think. And similarly, I think in season three, he talks about it with Nat, but more in relationship to going to get spicy Thai food with Tiff the next day and that triggering her labor and that eating spicy food is apparently like a catalyst for giving birth or whatever.
22:09 Chris Ryan? This is kind of just otherwise relatively unconnected. I just thought it was interesting to note that.
22:18 Chris Ryan? Phishes has happened in this world, so we know how that went for Jon Bernthal's character from Mikey.
22:25 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
22:26 Chris Ryan? And Carmy is now gone. Like Phishes is the motivating event that sends Carmy off into the world.
22:34 Andy Greenwald? A fine dining.
22:35 Chris Ryan? A fine dining and of, I'm not coming back to Chicago until tragically Mikey's passing.
22:41 Andy Greenwald? I want to say at the top that I also have a lot of thoughts about the delivery method of the episode, and we should kick that to the end of the conversation.
22:48 Chris Ryan? We can do one or the other. I mean, for people who haven't seen it, we can talk about the phenomenon of doing a surprise drop. Like, this is an episode that is essentially like its own film. You know, it's like its own episode. You don't really need to know almost anything about the bear to watch it. It's a portrait of these two guys at different stages in their life.
23:08 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, and if you're a fan of certain types of, especially like 70s filmmaking, like these guys are, you will find something to recognize and maybe hang out with and enjoy.
23:17 Chris Ryan? And we should mention that it was directed by Chris Doran, who directs much of The Bear.
23:20 Andy Greenwald? He said it was written by Eben and Jon Bernthal, which honestly, after watching it, I feel like maybe they wrote some outlines and then they did a lot of hanging out and then they wrote a little bit more, then they hung out more. It felt very organic.
23:31 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I think that there's a couple of beats that get hit.
23:35 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
23:36 Chris Ryan? It's also worth noting that there is, you know, I'm always kind of like on pins and needles waiting to see like who is going to emerge as like a special guest star on a bear episode. Maren Ireland, who's one of my favorite actors, plays a woman named Sherry that Richie and Mikey meet in a Gary, Indiana dive bar. They're sent to Gary by Uncle Jimmy to do a delivery. I think both of them kind of think they're running drugs or
24:03 Andy Greenwald? I hope.
24:03 Chris Ryan? doing something criminal and it turns out not to be, but they spend the day getting hot dogs, playing hoops, doing coke, hanging out in a dive bar. This is all with Richie having the imaginary deadline or imposed deadline of, I gotta be back at 5:15 back in Chicago, 30 miles away, because Tiff thinks she's going to go into labor at 5:15 PM.
24:28 Andy Greenwald? Okay, so in terms of the delivery method, like It is, I guess it's not, it's not the worst thing to do to remind people of a show coming back. A day after this debuted, FX announced that the fifth, and as we all expected, final season will be premiering June 25th. All episodes, as they've done in the past. I find this show's relationship to its fans and to its medium to be absolutely fascinating, if not borderline perplexing. It really does remind me more of the kind of, let's run a race, but first let me tie my legs together.
25:10 Andy Greenwald? Attitude towards success that indie bands have had in our lifetime, or even that some restaurants have, once people start lining up to take pictures of the food. The show is absolute phenomenon and delivered just like breathlessly back to back two of the best seasons of TV of the century.
25:30 Andy Greenwald? And then it got bumpier and it got quiet. And that's not, and there is a like a meta level of conversation here that we should have, which is like, we love this show and we love covering the show and a surprise drop makes it hard to cover the show. It's not about us, but that is sort of odd, A. But then B, it's not just that it's hard for us to cover, like they dropped it on a Tuesday in May and it's not categorized with The Bear?
26:00 Chris Ryan? No.
26:01 Andy Greenwald? So to find it, you have to search Gary. And as with everything regarding The Bear, the last two seasons, there has been, as of this moment, Thursday, no press related to it whatsoever.
26:11 Chris Ryan? I believe that they did some today or yesterday that will eventually get up, but yes.
26:16 Andy Greenwald? Right. So it is a weird thing for a show that, and look, we are not the audience police. But the show's relationship with its fans, and I think the show's reception has been, has changed slightly over the last two years, as the show has gotten more insular, more about itself, and also the, the conversation around it has been less forthcoming. Like we don't actually, you know, we spent a year and a half being like, seems like this was supposed to be one season, but they split it. And we still say that? Because we actually don't know what their intentions were and they're quite opaque about that.
26:48 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I mean.
26:48 Andy Greenwald? No one owes us anything, but it makes it hard to divine what the tea leaves are saying and what's going on. And that just continues with this sort of thing that I, I can't tell if this was released intentionally this way to just be chill about it, like, hey, we made you another thing and this is all we do. We're just whipping up something back in the kitchen and we're excited to share it. Or if this was like FX being like, got them again, gonna drop, blow their minds with a surprise drop of the episode of the year. And then it's, is it crickets? I don't know, but it's a weird, it does feel like there's a disconnect between where the show is in the culture and what the show is doing at the moment.
27:23 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
27:24 Andy Greenwald? That makes it hard to parse.
27:25 Chris Ryan? I think the bear is certainly in the last two seasons and certainly as some of those episodes stretched longer. And also honestly, as the bear as a show became so big after that second season. I found it personally perplexing that they continued with the binge drop model. I suppose you could do and/or style and put up three at a time. I suppose you could do boys style and do three and then 111 or however you wanted to do it, but to me, something that was so painstakingly made and honestly so obviously like emotional and emotionally cathartic for the people who made it.
28:01 Andy Greenwald? Right.
28:02 Chris Ryan? To have it go up and be like, have a nice weekend is strange. Uh, and yes, it does make it frustrating to cover because I would love to just be like, once a week, we have like a really thoughtful conversation about the bear rather than, you know, trying to figure out where people are and they're watching and that's, that's like a first world problem. Like I'm not really, not that big of a deal.
28:21 Andy Greenwald? I am very into the idea of creatives having enough, uh, freedom, energy, ideas, enthusiasm, creativity to say, let's dig a little deeper on something off, off menu.
28:36 Chris Ryan? It's honestly one of the most stimulating things that an artist can do for me is to be. Prolific in a really interesting and creative way. So to make stuff that maybe doesn't always fit into the same box over and over again. We'll probably chat a little bit about it, and this is a little bit of an odd connection to make. But I went and saw Katie Crutchfield from Waxahachie last night with MJ Lenderman. She has done a Waxahachie record, a Plains record, a Snowcaps record with her sister, and is now doing this like small, well, not small venue, but like quiet, like sit down, seated venues for this acoustic tour with MJ Lenderman.
29:17 Andy Greenwald? And she's about to drop the collab of the year with Kevin Morby.
29:20 Chris Ryan? And.
29:20 Andy Greenwald? A human baby.
29:21 Chris Ryan? A human baby.
29:22 Andy Greenwald? Congratulations to them.
29:23 Chris Ryan? But it's like, that's three different like iterations of her creativity coming out and all kind of one after another. I think the first time I saw Lenderman live was opening for Plains like a couple of years ago. That's awesome. Like, I think TV shows should feel free to do that. Like, I wish more TV shows did do like Landry's First Day at Art School or like whatever from Friday Night Lights. I don't know if Landry didn't go to art school.
29:53 Andy Greenwald? It wasn't Landry.
29:54 Chris Ryan? It was Saracen. But do stuff like that. Like, that's really cool. Um, it would be kind of funny if they were just like, what's Matt Saracen doing now? Forty-five minutes. I dropped on Peacock.
30:07 Andy Greenwald? And he's just drafting.
30:08 Chris Ryan? Yeah. Yeah, I think. He's fucking dialing up middle of the field throws for Jalen Hurts.
30:13 Andy Greenwald? He's literally the new.
30:14 Chris Ryan? He's John Mannion.
30:17 Andy Greenwald? Listen, I have some of the John Mannion thoughts. I'm of two minds about this, and I'm, this is our way into, I guess, talking about the specifics of the episode. Like, that interest, which is really real, and I'm supportive of it, and I like the idea that they were like, let's get in after this and also let Eben and John, because all good actors backfill their characters, whether it's their lives or just the moment before the camera starts rolling, that's part of a lot of actors' process. Uh, and they bring things to the table, and good directors and good writers listen to them and help try to craft a scaffolding for them to be able to work in. So the idea that Eben and John, being close friends, developed some sense of what that relationship was like off camera and wanted to put it on camera and play with it is incredibly cool. And it's cool to witness it and to see it get the full force of Chris's direction and
31:02 Andy Greenwald? obviously the sound design and song, uh, music supervision and everything is awesome. That said, I am, and this is something that's been a slight drag on my enjoyment of The Bear as it's gone on, I am not really a huge fan of flashback storytelling where every important inflection point of a life can be neatly sketched out in 30 to 60 minutes. That one's life really is a collection of, um, one's life really is like a 10-track record with the 10 moments that swung everything one way or another.
31:33 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
31:34 Andy Greenwald? Um, and so the, so, so this was a full expression of that. And I think that in that expression, in 59 unexpected minutes, you had, to my mind, the very best of The Bear and the most frustrating of The Bear. All mixed into one hour.
31:50 Chris Ryan? What, what's the, uh, what do they say about like TV? You know, movies is about the most important moment in a person's life and TV is about the most important arc of a person's life.
32:02 Andy Greenwald? It's about the life.
32:03 Chris Ryan? Is about the life.
32:03 Andy Greenwald? Maybe.
32:04 Chris Ryan? And I think that Storer and Joanna Callow and the people who make The Bear are probably trying to split it a little bit where this is, like you said, the most significant hits of Carmy and everybody's lives, but at the same time, we'll take, take a moment to just do a reverie. Although I guess every time I think of like an episode, I'm like, I bet that was very significant for that character's life, like Sid going around Chicago.
32:29 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
32:29 Chris Ryan? To get inspiration for her recipes and seeing architecture and see.
32:33 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I mean, to be clear, having the runway of multiple episodes of a TV show doesn't mean that you can sit a couple plays out, like every scene, this is, this is something that's said in writers' rooms, like, why are we doing this scene? What, what's the point of this scene that has to have some larger purpose other than being clever or cool, because this is a narratively propulsive medium?
32:52 Chris Ryan? In a, in a meta kind of parasocial way, I, I enjoy the idea of the Bear family, like getting to make stuff about their own characters. It's almost, it would almost be fascinating if, if I O got to do something like this, if, if a different, if the facts of, if Matheson got to make something, you know, like.
33:13 Andy Greenwald? We may get all of that.
33:14 Chris Ryan? Sure.
33:15 Andy Greenwald? I mean, a lot of those people have stepped up into more expansive roles on the show I was directing. I mean, I think, I think you're on to something when you point that out.
33:22 Chris Ryan? Yeah, and then as far as the episode Gary goes in particular, obviously there are some moments at the very end that I think will have a huge impact on the, the next and final season, but.
33:36 Chris Ryan? It was a really interesting
33:39 Chris Ryan? example of like,
33:42 Chris Ryan? if Bernthal on this show starts out and you're like, oh my God, like this guy came off the bench and threw 102 and struck out the side in fishes, you know? And then there are a couple of little flashes of him, like, of course, in that first season, like, the blast images of like his face.
34:05 Chris Ryan? And he pops up here and there throughout the series now, and to the point where he's not just like a ghost or a memory, he is like almost a living, breathing character. I thought this rounded that character out more than I could possibly have imagined. And I thought that, I think if I can read you right, the first half of this episode of them like saying fuck to each other and kind of banging heads was like a little raw. And then the second half for me really came together when they get to the dive bar.
34:36 Andy Greenwald? I felt.
34:39 Chris Ryan? Like, I thought it was incredible like that.
34:40 Andy Greenwald? Maren Ireland is one of those performers who belongs in this family and in this world. And it's hard not to think that because she's so, she's known by people who watch TV and respected, but I think she's more celebrated as a stage actor and is a vital part of that community. And so you almost wonder that this Eben and John doing this together while they were prepping for Broadway, maybe they know her from that world, bringing her into this world at this moment, releasing this episode the day of the Tony nominations, which didn't go the way those guys hoped, but the show got a couple, I think. Technical categories. I thought that was really appropriate and I thought that she was magnificent, you know? And it's a lot harder than I think one would realize to not just step into a well-oiled
35:25 Andy Greenwald? family of a show and, you know, and fit in so well, but to create an entire person with relatively meager pantry, meaning you have to show up and most half of what you're saying intentionally is part of a game where you're lying. And you also have to in the span, not just in the span of a few minutes, but in the the space of a toilet stall. Become the most important person who has ever spoken to the other character in the scene.
35:54 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
35:54 Andy Greenwald? A person who we don't even know that well. They were phenomenal together and I thought that that scene was really, really special. Not just because of her performance, but because it was really nice to see Bernthal turn it down. You can't, speaking about throwing gas, like you can't be a successful, you can't be a successful starter in this league. If you're just trying to blow past them every time, they're going to figure it out. You need to be able to throw some off speed stuff. And so much of his role on the show as a guest star is like a late innings reliever.
36:24 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
36:24 Andy Greenwald? Comes in and, you know, blows up the gun and everyone's excited.
36:27 Chris Ryan? The fork at Bob Odenkirk, yeah.
36:28 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, exactly. Every part of that up until Bob Odenkirk, I thought you were doing the baseball analogy still. That's great. So much of his performance, performances in everything recently has been that, including from what I gather, a lot of what he's doing on Broadway. So to see him drop the act, drop the mask and be really sensitive was, that was the highlight of the episode for me. I think the other, I think broadly, there are moments to enjoy about their banter and there are moments to enjoy about like another overly intense catharsis spurred on by a not entirely fleshed out and temporary female character. That like, and then the volume of the episode is the volume of the hour long, very special episodes of The Bear.
37:10 Andy Greenwald? It's not fair to ask painters to change up their style constantly, but that, those were volume and rhythmic beats that felt familiar.
37:21 Chris Ryan? Do you mean like in the tradition of like Claire, like somebody who's like, I'm just going to stand here while you have like a complete meltdown and then be like, you're the best?
37:29 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I hear you. I see you. I also wondered, and I think it's interesting because you talked about how, um, Mikey haunts the show like a ghost. Like maybe I am just prestige TV pilled, but like post that episode of Industry and also watching Widows Bay, I was like, I don't know, Sherry's real.
37:45 Chris Ryan? I, yeah, I, I think the more probably appropriate way of looking at it, rather than is Sherry like a fantasy? Because.
37:55 Chris Ryan? That would be a little bit of, I mean, I think that there's a, there's a percentage chance that you're right, right? Or that that's the case.
38:02 Andy Greenwald? No, I don't really believe that.
38:03 Chris Ryan? But the bigger theme is this idea of fact or fiction. This is a game that they're playing in the dive bar where they're telling stories about their life and obviously like it's better if you're very specific and it's better. And this is, Mikey's a guy that Richie has told fact or fiction stories about, or Mikey has told stories on the show where like, you know, you go out until 3 a.m. and the Blackhawks are all there and it's kind of funny that Sherry originally thinks that he's on the Blackhawks because Richie's lied to her about it.
38:28 Andy Greenwald? I'd never heard the term e-bug before, that was cool.
38:30 Chris Ryan? Yeah, but it's kind of amazing when, you know, you think about, this is gonna be a story that Richie tells. There's the real version of what happens there, which is Mikey essentially being like, you're a fuck up, you're not gonna be a good father and you should just get in my car and drive and get the fuck out of here. And yet, Mikey is this guy that multiple characters on the show like swear fealty to and are like, this guy saved my life, this guy saw me. And Bernthal does a couple of things in this episode where they very, very specifically, or store very specifically focuses in on Bernthal listening.
39:09 Andy Greenwald? Yes.
39:10 Chris Ryan? And for somebody who's, I think his addiction and his mental illness, the character's addiction and mental illness probably makes him incredibly difficult at times and incredibly charismatic at times. It was really cool to see that other side of that, which can be like radical empathy, you know, and incredibly locked in empathy and he does that in a very, very convincing way. I think you and I have both met people like that, we've, you know, had experiences like that, so it's weird. It's like, I just don't see a lot of other examples of human behavior being portrayed so honestly on TV.
39:42 Andy Greenwald? I think that's a really good point to make and I also would say that you're very smart to point out like that fact or fiction isn't just a bar game. Because first of all, if the bear just went on for 10 seasons hanging out in midwestern dive bars, like- Be a pretty good joke.
39:56 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
39:57 Andy Greenwald? And it would be one that I would be interested in. Seems like a really good time.
40:00 Chris Ryan? The second President Ossoff administration. God bless. We're just talking about the bear.
40:04 Andy Greenwald? It's like bringing back, but also, but also bringing back Gary.
40:07 Chris Ryan? Yeah, sure, right.
40:09 Andy Greenwald? You know, the industry's coming back. The idea of factor fiction as being like the central theme of The Bear, which isn't really about fine dining versus fast casual. It is fundamentally about the power of story and legend to hold families hostage and hold them in place. And the push pull we have, just built into our DNA of these are the people I have to love.
40:35 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
40:36 Andy Greenwald? These are the people I have to submit to. I have to pick up the phone when they call. I have to go back to them. I am locked in this with them or, you know, watchmen meme, they're locked in here with me. And at its best, what The Bear has done with flashbacks is highlight the inconsistencies and the despair and sadness at the root of what can become anecdotes.
40:55 Chris Ryan? Yes.
40:56 Andy Greenwald? And that is a really, really compelling narrative idea. And it's something that The Bear has done better than any other recent drama. Cause I think when it's doing that, it's doing it in its guise as a drama.
41:09 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I mean, sometimes the result, it doesn't, doesn't always have to be intentional. Like if you have somebody like Dee Dee in your family, if you have
41:18 Chris Ryan? complicated relationships or, or people who are volcanic in the way that Mikey and Dee Dee are, it's not uncommon to be like, I have to recontextualize what I have experienced and make it into something funny.
41:31 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, it's a defense mechanism.
41:33 Chris Ryan? Or this hilarious night that this happened. And it's like, no, your, your mom drove a car through a living room and could have killed everybody. Like, that's crazy. Like, then you shouldn't have had to experience that. But it's like, that's also what happens in real life. I, I, I liked going back to the scenes. Thank you to the internet for pointing out the scenes where Richie has referenced Gary. Because. I don't know when they shot this necessarily.
41:59 Chris Ryan? But it was really cool to see the fact that there was a consistent tone from Baccarat's performance throughout this show of like, there's like a real pain in the way he references this day. It's obviously something that really hurts him. And obviously, the relationship with Tiff didn't work out. And I wonder if he's like, Mikey was always right about me in some ways. And it only gets to like forks where he starts to like reshape his life a little bit.
42:23 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I mean, the beauty and power of the bear at its best. And I am excited for the final season to see, you know, how they choose to land it. Having, again, we don't actually know what happened over the previous seasons, but they made another season. They did it willingly, and let's see what they did with it. But the idea that is essential to, I think, Chris Doris worldview, which is that people, maybe it's only in fiction, but people can change. And people can throw off the yoke of expectations or the version of who they used to be. And sometimes you do have to fake it till you make it. You do have to become a suit guy to do it. You do have to lose yourself in tweezers and precision. Call back to what we were saying about the Tony trailer, about what happened to that
43:06 Andy Greenwald? real life person now being fictionalized. It was also interesting what you were saying about humor as the defense mechanism, because that's an interesting way to frame the show's persistent miscategorization, that it presents as a comedy, like many of us do. And as actually-
43:23 Chris Ryan? Just imagining Hannah Iam by under watching last night. Just feeling, I haven't laughed once!
43:33 Andy Greenwald? I think I saw some of the Hacks crew at Madison Square Garden last night.
43:37 Chris Ryan? Did you?
43:38 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, they were on the wrong side of history. Actually, the right side of history, but the wrong side of justice.
43:41 Chris Ryan? Were they on the right side of comedy, though?
43:43 Andy Greenwald? Well, I guess they have the last laugh.
43:45 Chris Ryan? I have, just to wrap up the Gary part, the last moments, okay, so- Spoiler, if you have not watched this episode, you may want to check it out before I get to this part. You've been warned.
43:56 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
43:56 Chris Ryan? Uh, the last image of, of the episode is Richie sitting in his car. We are, I, this is, you know, more responsible Japanese vehicle, uh, that he has now, the one that he listens to Taylor Swift in. The implication being this is shortly after, I imagine, um, the episode goodbye in season four, where Carmy quits. Gives the restaurant to Sid and Richie. Uh, Richie's sitting in the rain in his car. He's thinking about Mikey. We are led to believe that like, this entire reverie has been taking place at a stop sign, more or less. Um, someone hogs to, for him to move. He goes and he gets T-boned by another vehicle.
44:36 Chris Ryan? This is interesting because we, I did not anticipate this.
44:41 Andy Greenwald? You did not expect such clear connective tissue from season four into the upcoming season five.
44:46 Chris Ryan? And I didn't expect there to be like a,
44:50 Chris Ryan? a tragic event. I mean, we don't know how bad this is or what state Richie's gonna be in. To me, my immediate narrative brain went to, well, this keeps Carmy attached to the bear.
45:02 Andy Greenwald? Sure.
45:02 Chris Ryan? Um, maybe Carmy now has to be front of house. Like, I don't know.
45:06 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
45:07 Chris Ryan? But, uh, it's, it's a very interesting gambit because I kind of, when you, when they, when a season ended, but they were like, the bear will return.
45:15 Andy Greenwald? Yes.
45:16 Chris Ryan? I was like, I wonder if this is gonna be like IO's show now.
45:19 Andy Greenwald? Yes.
45:19 Chris Ryan? And Jeremy Allen White will appear like four times or three times.
45:23 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
45:24 Chris Ryan? But I didn't know what narrative reason there would be to do it again.
45:29 Andy Greenwald? Well, the poster for season five.
45:32 Chris Ryan? Is Jeremy Allen White.
45:34 Andy Greenwald? Well, it's Jeremy Allen White looming over it like a force ghost.
45:36 Chris Ryan? Yes, but he's not the one in the car. So this would certainly give Jeremy Allen, this would give Carmy a reason to stay in Chicago, stay attached to the bear.
45:45 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
45:46 Chris Ryan? Care for Richie, become like a kind of paternal figure or patriarch of this real Brusato family, but also like the found family of the restaurant. That's my, that was my read on it. Assuming Richie is not dead, you know, which I hope he's not.
45:59 Andy Greenwald? I am, I, I just admit it. Like I am, I have no idea.
46:05 Chris Ryan? It's okay.
46:05 Andy Greenwald? And I have no idea what even what my feelings are as we're talking about it. I think that I had such a strange. Season four left me with such strange feelings about like, I was preparing for it to be over and then it's not over and I don't know what, I don't know how much more you can wring out the same towel.
46:23 Chris Ryan? Well, it's a much larger conversation that I think we'll probably have when the show comes back about, that I think we scratched a little bit of the surface of is how much do you need a show to give you its intention upfront? Like, how much do you need to be like, this is in fact not the final season and as you start the fourth season, you know?
46:39 Andy Greenwald? Well, also-
46:40 Chris Ryan? Guys, don't worry, it's not the last year.
46:41 Andy Greenwald? Well, here's, here's our opportunity to segue into Widows Bay and, which is that it's a very, not contemporary, but like the last few years problem or opportunity. How situational shows navigate the business of longevity, of delivering in the moment versus playing the long game that gets you clicking next, next, next, that gets you optimized for streaming algorithms.
47:10 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
47:10 Andy Greenwald? Which I don't think is what Chris is doing and I don't think it's necessarily what Katie Dippold is doing with Widows Bay, but it is part of how TV is made now. And, you know, I always point to something like Parks and Rec being quite good at that. That there was an immediate episodic story and then there was an over story that would shift. It's tough. I don't know if there's one good way of-
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49:12 Andy Greenwald? Doing it.
49:14 Chris Ryan? Briefly, when we talked about the first two episodes of Widows Bay, I offhandedly mentioned The X-Files as a reference point. And this felt, in a glorious way, like you could do 100 episodes of this show if this is how they're going to structure it and this is how they're going to do it.
49:31 Andy Greenwald? Or, first of all, I love it. I love the show. We'll talk about it. But in this, I don't think this is, this, I'm glad I have the chance to come at it this way because this is not concern trolling, but I did note with some interest that while this, the first two episodes did a very smart job of moving the ball forward, but then quiet resetting, like, everything is haunted, we can't have the tourists come. Oh, it's okay, it's fine, the tourists are coming. This episode moved things forward to a sense that Tom kind of no longer can pretend he doesn't believe, A, and B, he and Wick are now, they're not going to be on the same page forever.
50:08 Chris Ryan? But they, they both now are no, there's no longer one skeptical and one's a true believer. Like, they both are like, something fucked up is happening on this island.
50:15 Andy Greenwald? Which, again, they knew the show they were making when they pitched it and they produced it. So this is not me, you know, trying to concern troll what they did. But I was surprised at the harder turn into there is a season arc happening here of what's going on with this island. I thought, I did not think that would have come so quickly. And I'm curious, and frankly, because I trust the people so much, excited to see how they resolve it while assuming, I don't think anything's been announced yet, but I would assume that there will be a season two.
50:46 Chris Ryan? I assume so as well.
50:49 Chris Ryan? There is, so this episode is essentially about, you know, it's the first day of summer. The tourists have shown up. It's a big hit with the New York Times article claiming it could be the next Martha's Vineyard. And Tom, as mayor, is supposed to do a ceremonial, like, first swim in the ocean to show everybody that the water is okay. The night before, he is considering, like, reopening his heart, you know, and getting involved in romance again for the, I'd seemingly like, for the first time. I doubt it, because that would be like 15, 16 years. But clearly not a frequent dater.
51:27 Andy Greenwald? No. Small dating pool on the island.
51:29 Chris Ryan? Small dating pool. And a woman, not mysterious, but like, very specific woman, who's part of a bachelorette party.
51:37 Andy Greenwald? Or so she says.
51:38 Chris Ryan? So she says, is like wandering around the island. Tom gives her a ride. They meet up again to chat. He winds up opening up to her about how his wife died during childbirth of his son, and that they've just been basically together since then. Like, they're supposed to meet at a bar at some point. She never shows up, so he's like driving home. And he comes across an old woman who, he offers to give a ride, but she scratches him on his arm, thus starting the legend of the sea hag, which is basically a gross old witch from the ocean, who zeroes in on one target by getting his scent and his skin underneath her nails.
52:13 Andy Greenwald? And then Wick says that she will get into his house, and he will become lethargic, and then she will sit on his face and kill him.
52:19 Chris Ryan? Yes.
52:20 Andy Greenwald? He sings it, so it sounds better than when I just.
52:22 Chris Ryan? Yeah. And then eventually Wick has to come to his rescue, but it is something that, like, you know, we can't, we don't, nobody else can see the sea hag except for Tom. And really, except for Wick and Tom, right?
52:35 Andy Greenwald? Well, we don't know, because no one was, no one was there.
52:37 Chris Ryan? Right.
52:38 Andy Greenwald? No one saw it in the ocean during the swim. But also, because the show is clever like this, it's dovetailed with the, the relationship with the woman visiting the island.
52:47 Chris Ryan? Yes.
52:48 Andy Greenwald? Played by Elizabeth Alderfer, who, another one of these like.
52:50 Chris Ryan? She's on AP Bio.
52:51 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, like, great, great casting. She was great. I, I was glad that the show didn't go back to the same well, where there is a mysterious stranger that Tom opens up to who actually doesn't exist. The show intentionally did the opposite of what it had done with Tim Balls the week before as the clown.
53:06 Chris Ryan? Yes.
53:07 Andy Greenwald? Where he says, "I know what you are, get away from my door." And we do get the shot of her going back into the taxi with the other bachelorette at the party, saying, "That was humiliating."
53:16 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
53:17 Andy Greenwald? So it walks a fine line successfully. I did say this to you on the phone that because I took a chance because of the comedy part of the show and I was, my younger daughter was on the couch with me, I did fire up the beginning of the show.
53:32 Chris Ryan? How'd that go?
53:33 Andy Greenwald? And it was fine. She was, she was drawing on her like comic book drawing app and, and she was, she was okay with it. And I was like, I, I think it might be a little scary, but it's not, it's not that scary. And she was fine with it and she was laughing about it. And then at one point early in the episode, she quickly got up and washed her arm and then came back and then went and did it again. And I was like, is something going on? And she's like, well, you know, the cat scratched me. And so, you know, sea hags. And I was like, we're turning this off. So I did not finish it.
54:05 Chris Ryan? What did you turn on?
54:07 Andy Greenwald? Uh, I turned on another nightmarish vision, which is other teams in the playoffs other than our own.
54:13 Chris Ryan? Oh, in the NBA area?
54:14 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I think I turned.
54:16 Chris Ryan? Got a little Wimby going?
54:17 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I got a little Wimby going.
54:18 Chris Ryan? This show is awesome. I, I think like in some ways, it's almost helpful to have a batch of episodes to discuss, but was there anything else from this specific one that you wanted to highlight?
54:28 Andy Greenwald? I just thought it was interesting watching the show settle into itself. And so there is now like, like the church bells subplot with the reverend is, that's cooking.
54:39 Chris Ryan? Yes.
54:40 Andy Greenwald? I really like the way the show is confounding me with its commitment to all of the bits. Meaning it's not getting cute with the haunting. It is also a horror show. It is just full speed doing both still, which I think is really challenging.
54:55 Chris Ryan? We could throw After Dark on for Top Chef, I think, because it's like a
54:59 Andy Greenwald? Sure.
54:59 Chris Ryan? brief enough conversation.
55:01 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, we gotta do a power round here because you gotta get to the airport.
55:03 Chris Ryan? Lawrence won this previous episode, which was like not Restaurant Wars, but kind of, you know, and like it's a, it's a large scale dinner party that they have to serve immediately coming out of Restaurant Wars.
55:16 Andy Greenwald? Right.
55:16 Chris Ryan? Um, they're like signing up for things as they are waiting for Rhoda to come back for Last Chance Kitchen. Rhoda gets kind of the worst end of the stick here.
55:24 Andy Greenwald? Uh huh.
55:26 Chris Ryan? This was an interesting example of the show emphasizing a rule and some parameters of the competition, and then the judges disregarding that when it came to judging or evaluating.
55:38 Andy Greenwald? Speak on it.
55:39 Chris Ryan? They were given, I can't remember the specific, like, it was $1,200 for the entirety of the remaining chefs to go cook past apps and a main, or some part of a menu.
55:52 Andy Greenwald? A full, yeah.
55:53 Chris Ryan? It was a significant amount of food, and they were allowed to go to Whole Foods with $1,200, and they had to like each spend $150. And each one of these people makes a compromise.
56:02 Andy Greenwald? Mm-hmm.
56:03 Chris Ryan? Anthony, instead of getting king crab, gets Dungeness, and not even that much. Oscar, who winds up going home, gets a bunch of short rib, but has to like, be like, I'm gonna need to get this down to like the bone because I don't have, I should have like, another half of amount of short rib here.
56:19 Andy Greenwald? And then he makes a fatal decision.
56:22 Chris Ryan? Yes.
56:22 Andy Greenwald? Being like, I need to fill out my plate with starch.
56:24 Chris Ryan? Rhoda, who is back from Last Chance Kitchen, is given dessert, which nobody wants, and she doesn't want, and is kind of
56:32 Andy Greenwald? Put an asterisk in that.
56:32 Chris Ryan? Shy and retiring about what she needs to make her meringue, and, you know, I thought, I wanted to ask you whether you thought there was some gamesmanship on Sherri's part when it came to the sharing of eggs?
56:44 Andy Greenwald? No.
56:46 Chris Ryan? Okay.
56:46 Andy Greenwald? I think this, I think the one hallmark of the season is that everybody's pals.
56:49 Chris Ryan? Sure.
56:50 Andy Greenwald? And that's fine.
56:50 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
56:50 Andy Greenwald? I think, I think there's two major problems coming out of this episode. I think the one you're pointing to is really important, which is, you can't give them a draconian budget and then complain about what you get on the plate.
57:04 Chris Ryan? Yes.
57:04 Andy Greenwald? Like, they're all, all the judges are sitting there in their hot dog suits, being like, we're all trying to figure out the ones who did this.
57:09 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I thought it was, and this was also among the more like, because they judge them at the table.
57:15 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
57:16 Chris Ryan? So when they've served the food, the entire table of people are giving notes on what they're eating.
57:21 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
57:21 Chris Ryan? Um, Tom seemed to be in a terrible mood.
57:24 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
57:24 Chris Ryan? Uh, and I thought they were getting irate about certain things, like, there's just one little bit of crab here. I'm like, crab costs money.
57:32 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
57:33 Chris Ryan? You know, like, I know what you want.
57:34 Andy Greenwald? It's weird, because the relative poverty of the show in general is getting more and more apparent. You know, that they got, I think it was reported, they got like, they get a million bucks from the Carolinas Tourism Board to film there, and in return, Carolinas get A bunch of episodes indoors celebrating Duke's mayonnaise. Like, there is no question that post World All-Stars, this show's budget has been slashed considerably. And it is doing a great job. I still think editorially and like in terms of the design of the show, they're doing a great job. They've never been better at cultivating points of view and chefs and also relationships from the judging panel now. It's been great.
58:15 Andy Greenwald? But don't pretend you're still in the luxury fine dining space because you're not. And then when you do things like that, like say, we're going to challenge them by giving them even less money to cook indoors for the third straight week. It's like you're kind of telling on yourself in a way that you might not want to.
58:29 Chris Ryan? Yes.
58:29 Andy Greenwald? But the biggest problem of the episode for me was the fucking cooked gamesmanship of the whole thing. I don't necessarily blame them for absolutely sending Oscar home instead of Rhoda, because Rhoda had just gotten back. But Rhoda fucked up. Now, was it her fault? They set her up to fail by coming out of the Last Chance Kitchen and setting up a challenge where she would be almost guaranteed to be walking into a dessert.
58:56 Chris Ryan? Yes.
58:56 Andy Greenwald? That felt, if other seasons have overly privileged those coming out of Last Chance Kitchen, because it's like they're shot out of a cannon.
59:03 Chris Ryan? Yeah, they're like, I have so much confidence because I've been cooking my food for Tom.
59:07 Andy Greenwald? Exactly.
59:07 Chris Ryan? And getting a direct feedback for...
59:10 Andy Greenwald? Maybe the thought was, you are still at a disadvantage because you were eliminated from this competition. But then if that's the case, have the courage of your convictions. Because this was, this more so than Tom being like, despite the dining ring mold on my plate, I still think Nana's food was good. This felt like one of the most egregious decisions ever. I don't think Tom was wrong to be like, he served meat with rice next to a rice dish. Like, that was really dumb.
59:36 Chris Ryan? It's funny though, because that was another note that they gave where they were like, this is a complimentary tasting menu that should complement each other. And they had done the same thing about the canopies where they were like, don't all of you make fucking shrimp toast? You know what I mean? Like, don't everybody make the same thing? But I didn't feel like that note was so strong that like it was insane for Oscar to do that. Like, I didn't feel like they were like, if you put rice on your dish, you're going home.
1:00:04 Andy Greenwald? Well, if you serve it next to rice, I think that was particularly provocative.
1:00:07 Chris Ryan? A mind blowing dish, he probably would have won. Um, but I did, I don't remember Last Chance Kitchen being such a play in tournament team in previous seasons. And I don't, if I was Rhoda, I'd be like, what's going on? Like, I didn't get Seeger that day, when like I just cooked again against two, Nana and Brittany, I think, right? And then I beat Brandon or Jonathan, I can't remember which one was in the, Brandon. I come in very late after they've all gotten to decide what they're, not only what kind of thing they're gonna make, but like the specific thing they're gonna make. And then I'm like, I guess I'm gonna make a meringue, you know?
1:00:46 Andy Greenwald? And then I'm gonna do a terrible job at it for four hours. I think that's the thing that was so galling. It's not like she got boned by the eggs. She made a bad meringue, needed to remake it because she didn't add sugar to it for four hours.
1:00:58 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I don't.
1:00:59 Andy Greenwald? That was a terrible dish. And it didn't fulfill the function of the dessert in the menu. And they saved her. Now, is the show better heading into the finale with Rhoda who prior to?
1:01:12 Chris Ryan? Well, I don't know because Rhoda has won twice and failed twice, but being like top bottom. Obviously in LCK, she did very well.
1:01:22 Chris Ryan? I don't know, I don't know how much longer she will last. To me, the other thing that's sort of strange is the attention that I'm paying to the mess, the fuckups is way greater than the fact that Lawrence and Anthony are basically a two horse race for this
1:01:39 Andy Greenwald? Yep.
1:01:39 Chris Ryan? season. And I would be frankly shocked if Lawrence didn't win at this point.
1:01:43 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
1:01:44 Chris Ryan? Like, they just seem routinely blown away by what he makes.
1:01:47 Andy Greenwald? They don't seem routinely blown away. They seem routinely pleased. Okay, you know, I think it's just been incredibly underwhelming performance from the contestants across the whole season. And I wonder if the lack of opportunity to challenge them in more overt or literally outdoor ways is affecting what I'm seeing. But sometimes, and I don't know if any of these people left would step up in this way. But one of the things that was always really cool about Top Chef was when circumstances got more extreme, some people would find a new gear, that they would be able to harvest the ingredient and then also get it done and then also.
1:02:27 Chris Ryan? Well, I will say in previous seasons, the one thing that you really haven't heard this season is like the judges imploring the chefs to like cook their food, to express themselves, to take it to the next level. Like, it feels like they're kind of like, can you guys get food on the plate in time?
1:02:42 Andy Greenwald? And since ever.
1:02:45 Chris Ryan? And follow instructions.
1:02:46 Andy Greenwald? And in a time when 80% of all challenges are inside the studio and Last Chance Kitchen is in the studio, and they're just pulling from a pantry or going to Whole Foods and cooking, like, they're kind of all the same challenge.
1:02:57 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:02:58 Andy Greenwald? One has mayonnaise and one doesn't. One is cooking a restaurant meal as an active restaurant and one is cooking a coursed meal doing one course. Look, who among us hasn't had to stretch a few ingredients to make a meal last, you know, or make a budget last for the week? But you are feeling that in the show in a way that is disappointing because, I'll just repeat myself, like editorially and like in terms of like the hosts and the judging, it's as good as it's ever been.
1:03:24 Chris Ryan? I agree. I mean, I still, I will watch it every week, right into the second Ossoff administration, you know?
1:03:30 Andy Greenwald? I think that's beautiful. Are they back to back administrations? Or is there going to be like a brief interregnum for, you know, like a Kristi Noem era?
1:03:39 Chris Ryan? That would be cool. I can't wait to see.
1:03:41 Andy Greenwald? I think what I like in governance is the same thing that I like in like an Uber driver, which is wild swings from left to right constantly. Hey, as long as you make it to your destination.
1:03:53 Chris Ryan? Let's wrap it up there. On Monday, we will be together, but remote. So I will be calling in.
1:03:59 Andy Greenwald? Sad.
1:03:59 Chris Ryan? Landlines. Sal 2009 style. Um, now we'll do a euphoria and some other stuff on Monday and then just Andy on Thursday. It should be very exciting.
1:04:09 Andy Greenwald? I'm glad you keep reminding me on camera because I would say that my planning for that.
1:04:13 Chris Ryan? We're not gonna actually be together for a while. So you're, you're doing Thursday on your own and then I do all of next week on my own.
1:04:20 Andy Greenwald? Do you guys have enough material after, um, what's the word, 14 years to just make like a soundboard?
1:04:26 Chris Ryan? I gotta get on a plane. We can make an AI generated version of you.
1:04:30 Andy Greenwald? That's awesome. That's awesome.
1:04:31 Chris Ryan? AI Andy coming at you with me.
1:04:34 Andy Greenwald? I'd be like, what? I'm offended by that. You could just sort of hit it like an NPC.
1:04:38 Chris Ryan? Not for me, but I'll tell you what. See you guys later.
1:04:50 Speaker 06 This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Fall is here and Whole Foods Market has everything you need for cozy meals, seasonal treats and easy entertaining. Elevate your hearty dishes with tasty bone-in beef short ribs or New York strip steaks with no added growth hormones or antibiotics. And as the fall evenings draw in, why not get ahead of cold season with immunity shots, herbal teas, lozenges and supplements? Make sure you look for sales throughout the month. Shop fall flavors with higher standards at Whole Foods Market.
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