Pod Insights The Watch 'Squid Game' Season 2 and Everything But TV Recommendations About this episode Chris and Andy talk about the first two episodes of 'Squid Game' Season 2, and whether the show was harmed by a three-year break from the first season (1:00). Then, they talk about some of their favorite non-TV-related things this year, including books like 'Orbital' by Samantha Harvey and 'Creation Lake' by Rachel Kushner (26:23), and some of their favorite movies and music from the year (46:35).
Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald
Producer: Kaya McMullen
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Transcript 13,358 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 If you're a fan of the inner workings of Hollywood, then check out my podcast, The Town, on the Ringer Podcast Network. My name's Matt Bellini. I'm a founding partner at Puck and the writer of the What I'm Hearing newsletter. With my show, The Town, I bring you the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. Every week, we've got three short episodes featuring real Hollywood insiders to tell you what people in town are actually talking about. We'll cover everything from why your favorite show was canceled overnight, which streamer is on the brink of collapse, and which executive is on the hot seat. Disney, Netflix, who's up, down, and who will never eat lunch in this town again. Follow The Town on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
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2:26 Speaker 03 I need supports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.
2:31 Chris Ryan? Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me on the other line, a man with lots of opinions about the right translation for The Odyssey, it's Andy Greenwald.
2:46 Andy Greenwald? I didn't know you were going to speak on that. I thought you were reserving your thoughts for the new year.
2:51 Chris Ryan? We're definitely over here at Blue Thunder Incorporated. We're not really ready to give up that that's what Chris Nolan is actually doing. I do want to talk to you about The Odyssey. I want to talk to you about everything, man. I want to talk to you about this magic carpet ride called life. A little bit of Squid Game. The idea for today's show is we're going to hit Squid Game in a very general sense. I'm sure some of you hardcore fans have already binged through it. Andy and I have not. But we'll chat a little bit about the project, I think, more than the nuts and bolts of the episodes, and then we'll try and revisit that later. And then after that, it's anything but TV. That was the sort of the guiding light for this episode of The Watch podcast. You know, we typically,
3:32 Chris Ryan? obviously, talk about television. But there are some other icons on our podcast artwork. There's like music. There's books. We engage in both of those things. Greenwald, it's great to see you, man. How was your holiday so far?
3:47 Andy Greenwald? I think that we should replace one of the icons with a stock pot. And in that pot, depending who's using it, you know, for me, it could be aromatic, warming spices for the season. And for you, it could just be room temp water with a chicken in it.
4:00 Chris Ryan? You know? I really feel like I've worn that cloak for many years, you know, and I've improved my, not only my culinary ability, but also my tastes have expanded.
4:12 Andy Greenwald? You've grown. Do you feel like, do you ever feel like, by the way, this is going to be a really loose show, do you ever feel like our long relationship is holding you back? Because here, sometimes, you know, you're out there in the world, you're on another podcast, you're excelling in all areas of life. And then here, I'm like, your chicken is moist.
4:28 Chris Ryan? No, you're nice. You're nice.
4:30 Andy Greenwald? I don't, I just don't want you to feel bounded. Because, you know, the other day, I was sitting here, not really.
4:35 Chris Ryan? It's not like Bill lifts me up. It's like I go on Bill's pod to be like, put in a gimp suit and be like, oh, did you see Joel Embiid like crying on the sideline about depression?
4:45 Andy Greenwald? Okay, that's fair. But also, the other day, I just fired up the last 10 minutes of the 2021 movie draft, and you're talking about marrying the Hawk Tua girl.
4:53 Chris Ryan? Oh, yeah, but we recorded that in August. She was cool back then.
4:56 Andy Greenwald? I was just like, listen, listen to Chris run free. You know what I mean? It was a little bit like, we all wanted to keep the rescued animal, you know, but actually, it deserves to be, I don't know this analogy.
5:07 Chris Ryan? Is this our last pod? You're letting me?
5:10 Andy Greenwald? It's our last pod of the year.
5:11 Chris Ryan? I've taught you everything you can learn, Padawan.
5:15 Andy Greenwald? I feel like we've always had a Liam Neeson, Christian Bale, Batman Begins type relationship.
5:20 Chris Ryan? It's true.
5:21 Andy Greenwald? You know, and now you're just super jacked and ready to fight Bane. No, no, this is why maybe we're going a little bit off script this week, just to see like, if we can bring our new best selves to the podcast before we resume recording in person next week.
5:33 Chris Ryan? Have you had a relaxing couple of weeks, like, like, week off? Do you feel like you're ready to podcast?
5:39 Andy Greenwald? Absolutely not. No, no, no, I'm not rested at all. My most radical suggestion, I know that we have an incoming administration. I don't know anything about them, because, you know, I'm not really reading the news these days. But I did hear that there might be some dangerous, if not radical, ideas being pitched around, like, and, you know, anything's, nothing's off limits, everything's on the table, daylight savings, whatever. And I do think that it would be worth suggesting. Sure, Green Lanterns. I do think.
6:05 Chris Ryan? We gotta bring the Green Lanterns back. What if Trump brought the lanterns in?
6:10 Andy Greenwald? What if Trump's like, the lanterns are American and always have been? Sinestro's in space being like, that's not true. No, I think that we should suggest a, this is the two week holiday period where the schools are closed, and then the first two weeks of January, the schools are reopened, and all adults have them off. All parents have two weeks off.
6:29 Chris Ryan? Oh, yeah. A parent vacation, a parent holiday, basically.
6:32 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I guess if you're, if you're a teacher.
6:34 Chris Ryan? Rated R Christmas, like PG 13 Christmas?
6:37 Andy Greenwald? You can do with it what you will. I'm not saying you have to go do, what does PG 13 mean? Like, just smoke some cigs and say the F-bomb once?
6:45 Chris Ryan? The implication you're, you're kind of saying there is like, the kids are home for the last two weeks of the year. Once they go back to school, like, you're allowed to just get into ketamine if you want to.
6:53 Andy Greenwald? Sure, sure. But not, but not in a party drug sense, in its originally intended tranquilizing sense.
7:00 Andy Greenwald? That's that would meanwhile, you've been like you've been like Joseph Robinette Biden, just running up Amtrak up and down the East Coast. I respect it.
7:09 Chris Ryan? I was in New York. I got to see a stage play on the Great White Way. I went to go see Leslie Hedlund's play Cult of Love starring Shailene Woodley and Zach Zachary Quinto and Mayor Winningham and David Rash was was really good. You know, it's always New York's just the best, man. New York has still got juice to it. And when like you're like, you're you're sitting there. Oh, I have to tell you about this very fun thing that I did. So I don't know if you're aware, I usually stay downtown in New York City. Taylor Swift has essentially ruined dining in downtown New York, because if she goes to a restaurant once, if not three times, that place is essentially like impregnable. Like it turns into like Helms Deep. Well, I guess Helms Deep was pregnable, but you know what I mean. It's like
7:53 Andy Greenwald? Spoiler.
7:57 Chris Ryan? My bad two towers heads out there who are on page a couple more pages ago. She's gone to this place Corner Store, the Corner Store a couple of times. It's like on West Broadway. And the Corner Store is essentially is a very nice restaurant, but it was essentially like a really, really nice Chili's, which
8:16 Andy Greenwald? Yes.
8:17 Chris Ryan? And even if, as I say that, I would, I would put it right on the level of Houston's, which is a kind of obviously a California institution.
8:26 Andy Greenwald? No, it's Houston's is national and Houston's is as good as it gets. So now you're now you're drawing my interest.
8:31 Chris Ryan? But we were walking by, it was like five something. I go up to the door and I'm just like, I know you guys don't have reservations for the next three years, but I'm going to put my name down. And she's like, you can put your name down, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
8:41 Andy Greenwald? What name did you put down? Chris Kelsey?
8:43 Chris Ryan? I was like Kylie Kelsey's podcast producer. I so then we walk off and it's I'm hungry. It's like six now. So grab a couple slices of Joe's and we go to a wine bar, have a nice little like Cristini, have a nice cheese. We're just hanging out, drinking some red. And at about 7:40, who creeps into my texts? Well, Corner Store.
9:09 Andy Greenwald? No, they came crawling back to you?
9:11 Chris Ryan? Your table's ready and it'll be we'll be holding it for 10 minutes.
9:14 Andy Greenwald? Do you think they Googled your name and they thought that you'd be walking in with Hawk Tua girl?
9:20 Chris Ryan? I don't know. I don't know if money is good there. Um, so after eating several slices of New York's finest.
9:27 Andy Greenwald? This is, yeah.
9:28 Chris Ryan? A Cristini with like a walnut pesto. Two or three glasses of red wine.
9:34 Andy Greenwald? That's.
9:34 Chris Ryan? I then had to have dinner.
9:37 Andy Greenwald? Okay.
9:37 Chris Ryan? And it was, it was a tough scene, but it was, it was pretty good. But that was like it only in New York, you know?
9:41 Andy Greenwald? This is interesting. This is interesting on two levels. One, I have actually, I don't want to gas you up too much, but I have praised you and Phoebe a lot. I mean, I always do, but for one move that I've seen you and only you guys do, which is the pre dinner slice. I've seen you do that in LA, even though it's a very New York thing.
9:58 Chris Ryan? What if I tell you in LA?
9:59 Andy Greenwald? Over at, uh, at Bara Santos, I saw you, you remember it was like, I was, I was kind of impressed by that. I feel like that is a, you could take the kids out of New York or put them back into New York.
10:09 Chris Ryan? I think that what you're, what you're picking up on there is that my wife does not eat seafood. So what happens often is, is, you know, we love to hang. We love socializing.
10:19 Andy Greenwald? You guys are elite.
10:20 Chris Ryan? But when people are like, come with us to this restaurant, the specialty, and in fact, nay, the only item on the menu are prawns the size of, of Tyrese Maxey. You know, like, she's gonna need to grab a slice before we sit down and pretend that she's gonna even entertain eating a bisque, you know?
10:37 Andy Greenwald? No, that's smart game management. But the other thing that what you're saying, it does, it did remind me of a piece, I think this was in, I can't, I don't know if it was in the New York Times. I don't know if it was in failing New York Times or failing New York Magazine. It's hard to, it's hard to keep them apart these days. But there was a piece about how all the celebrity restaurants essentially serve baby food. That like, that all the hip restaurants are just like pasta and tomato sauce, sliders, buffalo wings.
11:03 Chris Ryan? Like Carbone and stuff?
11:04 Andy Greenwald? Carbone or Corner Store. It's all like sort of elevated TGI Fridays because, and, and, and the thing that this piece, hard hitting piece was trying to get to the bottom of, is this because all celebrities are babies with bad taste? Or is it because celebrities don't actually eat? They just go to these restaurants and get like three Cosmos and a dessert that they don't touch and then leave out the back entrance?
11:26 Chris Ryan? Oh, right. Yeah.
11:27 Andy Greenwald? And you, so all this is to say.
11:30 Chris Ryan? Jason Robards as Ben Bradley with his feet up on the desk being like, run that baby.
11:34 Andy Greenwald? Jason Robards as Jason Kelsey as Ben Bradley for the New Heights news, news podcast. No, I, I guess maybe this is why you weren't feeling great after dinner.
11:46 Andy Greenwald? You weren't supposed to eat is what I'm saying.
11:48 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I wasn't.
11:49 Andy Greenwald? Where are you on the, where are you? But we're gonna get into Squid Game, I promise. Where are you with the Kelsey Media Empire? Because I saw that Kylie, our queen, made an appearance on New Heights and just continued to just dominate the stat sheet.
12:02 Chris Ryan? I don't want the Chiefs to go, I do not want them to three-peat.
12:06 Andy Greenwald? No.
12:07 Chris Ryan? I'm not, I really don't have a problem with Travis Kelsey. Jason Kelly is a god. I would lay down in front of the 48 septa bus for Kylie Kelsey.
12:20 Chris Ryan? She seems like a perfect human being. And I, you know, I'm sure she would be like, I don't want that. I don't want your, you know, your expectations like that. You know what I mean? But she is a perfect human being.
12:30 Andy Greenwald? When I hear or like see a aggregated quote from Kylie Kelsey on a media appearance, I have the same reaction that maybe NBA heads do when they see Wemby's line. You know, when it's just like, the first ever 40, 20, 15 line. And it's just, for me, that's Kylie Kelsey being like, don't use pet names for me. And I hate buying presents for people. It's like, she is, she is the queen of the great Northeast.
12:56 Chris Ryan? Honestly, I welcome her to the number one spot. It's one that we have not held as a podcast per se. But I, if anybody is gonna get it, it should be her. Do you want to talk about Squid Game first? Or you want to keep going down memory lane here?
13:10 Andy Greenwald? No, no, I do, because we're gonna get silly after that, too. So let's talk about television. And by the way, on Thursday, for people who, I always like, for people who only listen to the first eight minutes, or people who only listen to the second 22 minutes, I don't know who's listening, but the agency continues to ascend in my personal, we're no longer ranking for the year rankings, and I'm excited to talk to you about the show.
13:29 Chris Ryan? The agency will not finish its season before 2024 closes. I can't remember.
13:35 Andy Greenwald? Right.
13:36 Chris Ryan? I think last year I threw Rogue Heroes, which is also coming back in early January. I think I threw Rogue Heroes on my top 10, even though it hadn't finished. But yeah, agency continues to cook, as does Landman. So on Thursday, we'll get back to that.
13:49 Andy Greenwald? I think Station 11 maybe didn't, was a December show. It was our number one. And that was quite controversial. No, it wasn't. We don't actually court controversy.
13:58 Chris Ryan? Nobody cares.
13:59 Andy Greenwald? Nobody cares. Okay, but Squid Game did come back.
14:02 Chris Ryan? I was gonna go back and see the tenor of our conversations in 2021 about Squid Game.
14:11 Chris Ryan? But I thought I would go into this a little bit more blind with you because I think for a lot of people who are not, say, super fan, like, I've been thinking about this show for three years, three years. This is probably a very common reaction, which is maybe a little bit of trepidation as this thing appeared after Christmas on Netflix, as it had been built up and built up by the company. It's obviously, I believe it's still the most streamed series in the history of Netflix, or at least the most streamed original show in the history of Netflix. And, you know, they, it has a special Netflix bong in the beginning. It's obviously like they've tried to spin this out and make it into a homegrown franchise.
14:55 Chris Ryan? And while all this has been happening over, especially the last six months, but even since the show first came out, the show itself as a show, as like all shows for the most part, faded from memory for me a little bit. Like, I, I think I had a little bit of hesitation or maybe dampened expectations heading back into this season, not because of the series, but because of me as like a human being who's able to retain information for any period of time. And I was like, I can't really remember, like, I remember this dude gets out, dyes his hair.
15:27 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, that's cool.
15:28 Chris Ryan? And goes to the airport. And I think somebody calls him. Now, I will say, one of the things I would really applaud this season for doing is handholding. You will remember what happened on Squid Game. You will remember all the key characters and what their motivations are. And it takes its time getting us accustomed to everything that we need to get accustomed to in terms of the socioeconomic situation of the characters, what's at stake, the sort of shadow world of the Squid Game empire that's looming in the underworld under, under all of them. But for you, man, like, were you like, Squid Game, totally remember? Or were you like, I, I'm gonna need a primer?
16:12 Andy Greenwald? It's actually not an easy question to answer because one of the reasons the show was so successful is because you get it. You get it pretty quickly. You get it despite language barriers. You get it despite, you know, my, you know, I've since studied up my lack of specific knowledge of the particular socioeconomic strata of South Korea in, you know, the post, you get what I'm saying? Like, the show is universal and its conceit is simple. That said, I remembered very, very, very little of the specifics, other than what you said and the fact that the show was set up for our main character to try to get back in, try to run it back, try to, if not three-peat, at least repeat.
16:52 Chris Ryan? That's right.
16:53 Andy Greenwald? And it's not easy to get back to the big game. Just ask the San Francisco 49ers this year. You know, bad, bad things can happen.
17:01 Chris Ryan? It's a tough scene.
17:02 Andy Greenwald? Sorry. I think that three years is an unconscionably long time between seasons of a television show in any capacity. I think that the degree of difficulty here is particularly high because, as has been said in interviews at the time, and certainly in the press tour this time, this wasn't designed to be an ongoing television show. This was designed by a film guy.
17:31 Chris Ryan? Film guy.
17:32 Andy Greenwald? Well, I mean, like you, or Sean, or Amanda, or Tim Simons, or Don Yeh Kwong, who made the show, Director Wong, we could call him. It was conceived of with cinema brain, meaning a beginning, middle, and an end with a purpose and a point to the story he wanted to tell. And that part of that time in between was basically to come up with a reason to do more. I feel strange, almost, you and I have only watched the first episode, and I'm engaged enough to continue watching.
18:01 Chris Ryan? I watched the second one, just because I wanted to get him, get him back to the precipice of the games, yeah.
18:06 Andy Greenwald? But I, I do think that this is a weird and very contemporary type of project to consider, because the first season was awesome, just unambiguously, it was sick. It was also so thrilling, because it came literally, well, okay, not literally out of nowhere, it came from South Korea, but no one was checking for it, no one expected it. And it was a very organic phenomenon, the kind that I think you and I really enjoy skitching along the back of. Like, I, I think that we started to hear people chattering about it, and it was bubbling up, and then we jumped on, and as did more people, almost everyone in the world. And you can't really recreate a phenomenon like that. I also think you were right to bring up something pretty unique here as well, which is Netflix
18:51 Andy Greenwald? has a number of mission statements, and one of them is to just, you know, get a lot of cheeseburger content out for the masses. But the other one is to build Perpetual legacy IP for itself. And Squid Game, Squid Game and Stranger Things are its best chance to do that. And you've already had a Squid Game reality game show that I don't think-
19:11 Chris Ryan? It's a Stranger Things, uh, West End, London show, which I'm sure will come to Broadway, yeah.
19:16 Andy Greenwald? Yes, but Squid Game is a weird receptacle for that honor, right? It is a, it is a foreign language, and I think deeply Korean in ways that you and I can't appreciate in terms of its cultural outlook and it's, and it, and the way it conveys drama and story, and even, even the way that it's shot and its tone shifts, et cetera, et cetera. They want Squid Game to be a, a brand. They want it to be video games. They want it to be all kinds of things. And, and then there's also the matter of the TV show, which in its first season was, as I said, unambiguously sick, but also a pretty fascinating and compelling critique of late-stage capitalism. And that's a tough, all of that is, that, that, that's tough to square, right? To accomplish all of those things with more television show.
20:00 Andy Greenwald? So for as much as it was confusing to be like, what is, what has been going on? It was also confusing to orient myself in, what is even this project anymore? Separate apart from what I remembered about the story.
20:09 Chris Ryan? Yeah, and then there's like, you know, they want to have this be something that feels both different and familiar. This is a sequel issue. This is a franchise issue where you want to basically give people the repeat experience that they've had before. So there will be games. Like you don't have to worry about that part. But clearly the filmmaker and the creator, creative team behind the show are interested. And, and he has expressed, I think, some, uh, ambivalence about making more of this. It's worth noting at this point, for people who don't know, that season two, I think, will largely be regarded,
20:48 Chris Ryan? season two and three are a statement together, and that season two is more or less two A, as far as it's a seven-episode run, and that he basically came up with enough story for however many more episodes than they divided it the way they did. And I believe three is coming much sooner, obviously not three years from now, maybe next year at some point. I found myself with a wandering eye in these first couple of episodes, kind of considering what would have happened-
21:19 Chris Ryan? If this was not responsible for the shareholder price, the stock price of a massively important and huge company anymore. Now, all TV shows kind of have that responsibility at this point, and it's something that we're not naive about. But there is this plotline early in the season with the recruiter who had initially brought players into the game in the first place, and he's given a little bit more room to cook, in this first episode especially. And I found myself just like completely charmed and engaged and fascinated by who is this guy? How did he get this job? What does he think of his job, et cetera, et cetera?
22:01 Chris Ryan? And that is something that needs to be wrapped up in the first episode so that they can get closer and closer to getting our main character back into the games. And I'm not here to debate whether or not that was the right or wrong choice, as much as if this had just been a plain old second season of a TV show, that might have been a path they could have nosed down a little bit. There are all sorts of different things about Seoul, or about the people who have been involved in these games that you could explore that aren't like, how do we get this guy to jump back in the matrix, right? And instead, it's like, okay, that's essentially what we have to do.
22:44 Andy Greenwald? First of all, Gong Yu is the actor who plays the recruiter. He's awesome and electric. And I think you've really hit on the issue that is, I don't even mean this as a criticism, it's just the nature of the beast here. The first season worked so effectively because it is a statement, a declarative statement on class and urban living and South Korea and the world, and also incredibly surprising and entertaining game.
23:10 Andy Greenwald? And I'm sure that Director Wong and his collaborators could make many stories about Seoul. And like, there's a moment in the pilot, the season premiere that I really, really liked, where the two guys working for Sung to find the recruiter are just eating convenience store food. Like, one has a sandwich and one has a rice ball. And there's like, at least we're working in the air-conditioned subways. And I'm like, oh, okay, now they're in a place, and this is what they're eating. And I'm interested in this. And, you know, I'm having my, my global television tourism moment that I'm always seeking. But this isn't that show and can't be. It has to do, as you said, two things at once. And that's tough. I mean, I don't know if there is a verb for this. Maybe we should come up with one, or maybe one exists in German. But like, it's not storification, but it's like, sequelification.
23:53 Andy Greenwald? It's, it's turning everything into a trilogy. And there's this moment when something jumps from, and sometimes, and most projects don't really survive the jump. The Matrix was like that too, right? And the issue with Squid Game is, no matter how successful this season is, and I'm willing to consider it the same way I've considered The Bear Season 3, which is just as part one of a two-part season. We'll see when we're done, how, how we pulled it off. That buys a lot of time and potentially goodwill, depending how they end the season with viewers. But I was really, really interested in season one Squid Game because I didn't actually have to care about who made this game. There was no origin story that I was interested in necessarily in the frontman
24:36 Andy Greenwald? or Sung's life before any of this, right? It was just an engine that told a really propulsive story. Once you jump to a second season, it has to be about this one guy's unique characteristics and heroism in taking down something that has specific reasons for existing and people behind the masks. And I, you know, people's mileage may vary, and this season may prove this point wrong. But at the start of season two, I'm just not as interested in that question. You know, I, I don't really care about who built this. I certainly don't want to see those VIPs again. I'm interested that it exists as a commentary on the larger world. And that's the, that's the jump. And The Matrix did that too, right? Like, The Matrix is a perfect film, and the next two movies are not perfect.
25:21 Andy Greenwald? And they have some interesting points, but mostly they were just kind of a clumsy attempt to make this not a story, but the definitive story about these people and why it matters.
25:31 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to comment too much without going too deep into the season, as which we have not done. So we're gonna obviously continue to check it out.
25:38 Andy Greenwald? For what it's worth, I did think I was gonna do what you were gonna do. I was gonna like just broaden the aperture a little bit. I saw Brian Phillips wrote a smart piece about it for The Ringer and like, I liked reading. I usually don't read stuff in advance of watching it, but I but reading that made me feel more interested that there is some social commentary and perspective shifting and, you know, that that grounds the season and gives it a reason to exist. So I thought that was optimistic.
26:01 Chris Ryan? Yeah, if I sound tempered at all, I think it's just that season one, and it really is a phenomenon that's that I think is limited to Netflix shows because of the the reach and the bingeability. Season one was the only thing close to it was Stranger Things in terms of the way it built up and crescendoed and felt like everybody was watching it. But season one had the added thing that Stranger Things didn't, which was the, oh, my effing god, have you seen this happen? I couldn't believe it. We were, you know, it's like, maybe not red wedding level, but it was essentially like getting a red wedding every episode of some kind. And that was that was sort of maybe 60% of the draw, you know? And so now that we've kind of gotten
26:45 Chris Ryan? this place, I like you, I listened to Joe and Rob talk about this on their Prestige TV podcast. I was reading Brian as well. Like, it's kind of a fun thing to engage in, but I don't feel the urgency around it that maybe I did the first time around. And that was also just such special circumstances in 2021, like, the world was much different back then.
27:02 Andy Greenwald? Would you choose the convenience store roll or the lottery ticket? If you were, let's say you were sleeping off a lot of pizza and walnut crustinis.
27:13 Chris Ryan? Yeah, walnut pesto. Well, I'd probably go lottery ticket because I was like, I'm still full from last night, you know? I'm intermittent fasting. So let's just see if we can make a miracle.
27:21 Andy Greenwald? Champagne problems.
27:22 Chris Ryan? That's right. What about you?
27:25 Andy Greenwald? No, I would, you have seen, and I've been, I'm often mocked in real life for the contents of my backpack because I always will have like an emergency sandwich or some almonds just in case. So even if I was full, I'm so averse to betting and I'm such like a risk averse.
27:42 Chris Ryan? I've never seen you gamble in my entire life.
27:45 Andy Greenwald? I've never gambled. I don't understand it. I wouldn't, so I would take the, I would take the roll. And then I probably wouldn't eat it, but I would carry it around. Cause you got, you see every time we leave Spotify HQ, sorry, Mr. Eck, but I take a smart bar or two just in case.
27:57 Chris Ryan? Just in case what? You're in Squid Game.
27:59 Andy Greenwald? I don't know. Yeah. What if I get recruited?
28:02 Chris Ryan? That's right.
28:02 Andy Greenwald? I'm always taking emergency snacks. You never know.
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28:42 Speaker 06 Sometimes remembering where you started makes you think where you're going. What if there's another way? Another way to breathe? Another way to connect? Another way to create?
28:58 Speaker 06 What if there's another way to grow?
29:02 Speaker 06 Another way to fly? There's always another way. Paradigm, Eau de Parfum and the Nou Parfum by Prada.
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30:14 Chris Ryan? All right, well, let's leave it there. We'll maybe even discuss a little bit more on Thursday when we're talking agency and land, and maybe we'll hit some future Squid Game episodes. I did want to talk to you about just a bunch of different stuff today. So usually we keep things to TV, but we'd like to try and and I don't think we're really talking about any movies per se now, right? Because you've not really gotten to catch up on awards stuff. Right. What are you reading right now? Like, as we come to the end of the year, I was curious whether or not with all your travel, like, has it been a good reading year for you? Do you have like a barometer?
30:50 Andy Greenwald? This seems like a loaded question.
30:51 Chris Ryan? No, I mean, I know what you're joking about, but like, I wondered whether or not you felt like you did a good job reading this year. I find that elections have a tendency to distract me from the world of fiction a little bit, but like, I'm curious whether or not you felt like you knocked out enough good books this year.
31:09 Andy Greenwald? Well, thank you for asking. I would like to take this moment to say that I feel like I did a very good job reading this year because I either read or reread seven quite long books for professional reasons. And enjoyed that quite a bit.
31:23 Chris Ryan? And then otherwise, we're just reading Kay Granger's tweets.
31:28 Andy Greenwald? No, otherwise I was just reading.
31:30 Chris Ryan? Kay and I were looking at her X account before you got on the Zoom. And I was just like, let's just see what Kay Granger's last tweet was.
31:36 Andy Greenwald? By the way, look at you pulling a Joe and Mika. Now you're calling it X, huh?
31:41 Andy Greenwald? You're just trying to just grease the wheels for January 20th.
31:44 Chris Ryan? I gotta check out my visa. I have no idea.
31:46 Andy Greenwald? Interesting. Interesting. Um, yeah. Anything good on there? You like some of those? Do you like some of that content? You see anything good?
31:55 Chris Ryan? There's a lot of debate. For some reason, my for you page is entirely about the right odyssey translation. I wasn't even joking. There's like a lot of fighting going on about that.
32:05 Andy Greenwald? I hope we do get a chance to talk about that. To answer your question more seriously, although I kind of did, that did take up a lot of reading this year. No, I think it's generally been a very, I think it's been a bad reading year. I've fallen beneath my benchmark of stuff. There was, there was a bunch of rereading. I find myself, and I don't know if this is like, this is like sign of a troubled mind or a diseased attention span. But I am in one of those, like, I am actively reading five books and it doesn't feel very good, you know? And then, and then just when I think I'm like really committed to something, I will get a beautiful advance from like Europa editions of a French crime novel called Dogs and Wolves.
32:46 Andy Greenwald? And that's what I'm reading now. And I'm really enjoying it. I do have two recommendations as part of my like end of the year stuff.
32:53 Chris Ryan? I know you got recommendations, brother. But I was curious, like, I have been, uh, so like I, this year has been what a lot of the late stage CR reading years have been like, which is a lot of espionage and crime fiction.
33:07 Andy Greenwald? Sure.
33:07 Chris Ryan? And then I am trying to read a project book every year. Now, like, when I say project book, I just mean it's gonna take me a while.
33:16 Chris Ryan? Just because like attention span wise and also work wise, like it's hard to just really spend like uninterrupted hours reading East of Eden or whatever. No big deal. And, uh, this year I was trying to read Devils by Dostoevsky. And I got about midway through when started traveling and I didn't want to bring a five pound Russian novel with me. I just didn't know how that would look on the streets, you know, I just never.
33:44 Andy Greenwald? In England? In England, I think you would probably do quite well.
33:48 Chris Ryan? Oh, no, they'd be like, I have a lovely penthouse apartment if you'd like to.
33:52 Andy Greenwald? Exactly.
33:53 Chris Ryan? So I feel a bit disappointed in myself and also, so I don't do the five books at once thing.
34:01 Andy Greenwald? No, no, it's impossible.
34:02 Chris Ryan? No, but what I do is just basically like inchworm my way through a book that doesn't need that much, that shouldn't require that much time to do. And then at the end of the, like after two months, I'm like, I can't believe I'm still on page like 132 of this. So that's why I think I've been trying to do more like, hey, always read because it's a good muscle. But, you know, give yourself a break and read Len Diten books if that's what you want to read, but make sure you're trying to like get one big one in a year.
34:31 Andy Greenwald? Well, that's why I think that, you know, it would almost be more useful than, you know, we, we always talk about it. We still have like somewhere in the blog over, there's still evidence of our double down book club stuff. And there's the crime novels that we always love to talk about. But I feel like it would be even more useful, like more service-y if we had a list of like skeleton key books, meaning books that re, that open your love of reading again, because it, it, it does happen, right? You could be totally jammed up and try and read five, but well, not now. Ruined it for me. But like there are books that suddenly remind you, oh yes, I love this more than anything else. And you read an entire book on a, I don't know, let's say 11 hour flight and you feel great about it. I would also say that the real version of Oprah's book club that matters to me is Kaya's book club.
35:15 Chris Ryan? I was just gonna say that. I wonder, she's had to listen to us talk about some pretty stupid shit over the course of her life, but her being like, me like book, but me can't read more two page ones. And Kaya has like a list of like 70 books that she read in 2024 and is like, I put stars next to the ones I like.
35:33 Andy Greenwald? Yeah. Did you see that the Emma Klein short story collection got a star? Chris?
35:36 Chris Ryan? I saw, I saw Play It As Lays made a spot there though.
35:39 Andy Greenwald? Well, hell yeah.
35:40 Speaker 07 To be fair, I don't really do project books. I pretty much exclusively stick to.
35:45 Chris Ryan? Kaya, your books are project books.
35:47 Andy Greenwald? Also.
35:48 Chris Ryan? Like Andy and I read the same book over and over and over again. Take the, take the W.
35:53 Andy Greenwald? Can I also say that in our defense, Kaya has 90 minutes on Mondays and Fridays just of uninterrupted reading time?
36:03 Andy Greenwald? So I think that's pretty good.
36:04 Chris Ryan? Yeah, that's why whenever you're like, I can't believe you still use Twitter. It's like, I only use Twitter while you talk on the pod.
36:12 Andy Greenwald? Especially when we're remote. Can I, um, can I make two actual recommendations?
36:17 Chris Ryan? Of course you can, yeah.
36:17 Andy Greenwald? That I think our podcast listeners would enjoy. One, and I think I've said this to you too, maybe I mentioned on the podcast, but there's a book called A Way of Life Like Any Other by Darcy O'Brien. It's available from New York Review of Books reissues. It is an incredible Hollywood book and it's like the author, it's semi-autobiographical buildings, Roman fiction, right? Where it's like the author and the main character are the sons of faded, golden age, silver screen stars. In real life, Darcy O'Brien was the child of Hollywood. And this is sort of loosely modeled on his own existence where there was a moment when his father was like a star of westerns and his mother was a romantic lead. And then all of their, the marriage crumbled, as did their fortunes.
37:01 Andy Greenwald? And this book is so, so, so funny. And it's just like an absolute, it's an absolute gem for people who enjoy relatively quick, funny books, but also deep, deep Hollywood. It's great. And the other book that's kind of got me outside of my comfort zone, Chris, I was, mentioned this the other week, it won the Booker Prize. It's Orbital by Samantha Harvey.
37:21 Chris Ryan? Yeah, you and Obama.
37:23 Andy Greenwald? That's among the many things that we have in common. I mean, we both are super into podcasts and we apparently watch a lot of television.
37:29 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
37:31 Andy Greenwald? No, we both love, but are not loved back in return by Boy Genius. For reasons that slightly differ.
37:36 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
37:37 Andy Greenwald? And this is unlike any book I've read, maybe in my adult life. It is 120 pages. It's super dense. It is about one rotation, one, well, it ends up being like 14 orbits, but one Earth day on an international space station. And it is not really fixed perspective among the astronauts. I can't tell you that anything particular happens. There's no crisis, but it absolutely blew my brain out the back of my head in terms of just perspective on this ridiculous planet that we're living on and who we are to each other and what we owe each other. And it's so beautifully observed by just a lady living in the UK. I, who, who in interviews has been like, no, I don't think I would ever go to space. It's. It's 120 pages, but it is not a single sitting.
38:19 Andy Greenwald? Like it is, you reward yourself with like 15 pages and then you think for a while and then you fall asleep.
38:24 Chris Ryan? Kaya, have you checked out Orbital?
38:26 Speaker 07 No, I haven't, but I mean, if it's on Andy and Obama's list, then I think I have to.
38:31 Andy Greenwald? It's star worthy, Kaya, I'm telling you.
38:33 Chris Ryan? So Darcy O'Brien, and then you had, and what was the name of the author of Orbital?
38:39 Andy Greenwald? Samantha Harvey.
38:40 Chris Ryan? Samantha Harvey, and you can find that on Barack Obama's 10 best books of the year list. My two recommendations that I have knocked out at the end of the year here, one is, well, they're both by two of my favorite writers. So the first one is the latest from Richard Price. It's called Lazarus Man. Richard Price is an object of deep, like, we adore him on this podcast. He wrote Clockers, he wrote Lush Life, which is one of my favorite novels. He wrote very many like incredible screenplays, including the script for Color of Money, the Martin Scorsese film, but has more recently been known to work in TV where he did work on The Wire, season three.
39:21 Chris Ryan? He co-created The Night Of and worked on The Outsider a couple of years ago on HBO. Lazarus Man is his new novel. It's set in 2008 in New York City and is about a group of characters who are united by the collapse of an apartment building uptown in New York City. And it's just a great Richard Price snapshot of of New York life, which he is, unlike anybody else I know, can capture certain ground currents, certain like patterns of behavior, certain energies. And even though this is, you know, more or less a period piece by this point, it is just a phenomenal, phenomenal book. I really loved it.
39:59 Andy Greenwald? Did you ever read his third book? Did you ever read Ladies Man?
40:01 Chris Ryan? Hell, yeah.
40:02 Andy Greenwald? In the 70s?
40:02 Chris Ryan? I think I've read them all at this point.
40:04 Andy Greenwald? I'm a big, big fan of, I mean, I like all of his books, but his early books, when he was less a, I am going to be a top-down observer and a canny observer of crime culture and the way people act the way they are. And he was still in his, like, I will also be a great novelist who will elevate my own existence prowling the comedy clubs of the Upper West Side of New York trying to get laid.
40:25 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
40:26 Andy Greenwald? That's a Ladies Man is a great book.
40:28 Chris Ryan? The other one that I wanted to recommend was Creation Lake by Rachel Kushner.
40:32 Andy Greenwald? Did you finish it? I'm jealous. I feel like that's on Kai and Andy's reading list.
40:35 Chris Ryan? And that one was-
40:36 Andy Greenwald? We have, we have our own list now, by the way.
40:37 Chris Ryan? Slightly different. It has a different vibe than other Rachel Kushner novels that I obviously just love her stuff and she's most probably well-known for flamethrowers. I loved Mars Room. Planet Telex is another one that that's really great, set in Cuba. Creation Lake is more of an espionage story, so I am cheating. It's not really a project book if there are spies, but it's about a woman who becomes involved with a group of radical environmentalists, I guess is the best, easiest way to put it, in France, but is also just a lot of riffing. There's a lot of like, and not, maybe not unlike Orbital, like the novel you were talking
41:19 Chris Ryan? about, where there's just like, a lot of room for Rachel Kushner, whether through the voice of her narrator or not, like, to kind of just make lots of observations about life. And so it's got a very compelling story. It's a bit of an oddball pacing-wise, because it's like, each chapter is about two pages long, so it feels very staccato in its rhythm. And sometimes you'll feel like, oh, I'm rolling downhill with this thing, I'm really going. And then it's like, no, I'm going to talk about Neanderthals for two pages. But it is an excellent book and it's, it's obviously in my wheelhouse in terms of the motif.
41:53 Andy Greenwald? Do you feel like there's any story to be mined from someone falling in with a group of moderate environmentalists? Just like people who donate to Greenpeace occasionally and usually remember to recycle and compost? I feel like all the environmentalists in fiction these days are radical. Like, remember how to just, how to blow up a pipeline, you know?
42:10 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
42:10 Andy Greenwald? Like, what happened to your just like, garden variety, like, doing my best, putting my kids lunches in paper sacks, not plastic bags, kind of environmentalist?
42:19 Chris Ryan? So here's the thing I wanted to, I don't know. That's a good question.
42:21 Andy Greenwald? Thank you.
42:22 Chris Ryan? They're obviously far more dramatic, the more radical they get. I wanted to ask you whether or not you've ever read The Odyssey.
42:30 Andy Greenwald? Oh, yeah, I have.
42:32 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
42:33 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, great, great story. Lot of stuff, lot of journeying.
42:36 Chris Ryan? Do you remember when you did it?
42:38 Andy Greenwald? Well, OK, so for context, right? We should say, one of the reasons you're asking me this is because Christopher Nolan's new movie was announced with Tom Holland and Matt Damon, and there was a lot of speculation as to what it was going to be. And you took every chip that you've gained in life and a couple packs of six MG Zins, and you pushed it into the center of the table and put it all on, this is a helicopter movie.
42:58 Chris Ryan? It's a remake of Blue Thunder, yes. And I am not ready to say I was wrong yet.
43:03 Andy Greenwald? No, I do think that the most interesting version of this would be The Odyssey with helicopters. It would be a much shorter story.
43:10 Chris Ryan? It would get so much easier.
43:11 Andy Greenwald? Because from above.
43:12 Chris Ryan? Imagine Zeus was like, what are these flying men?
43:16 Andy Greenwald? And like, there's the ocean is raging and Silla and Charybdis are like, soon he will be here, and then he just flies by in a helicopter.
43:22 Chris Ryan? The character references, you really have read this.
43:24 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, just flashing, just double middle fingers, being like, you can't stop me? What if the sirens were calling? The sirens were calling to Odysseus, but he's like, I can't hear you over the chopper. This was a, I think it was a college project, because I did take a classics course, because I couldn't disobey my father for that long. Like, I did have to, like, touch a couple bases in order to live the otherwise layabout existence that I lived. So you avoided The Odyssey, as we know.
43:53 Chris Ryan? No, I read The Odyssey, and I know that because I found a copy of it in my childhood bedroom, and I definitely have, like, notes on the margins for at least seven pages.
44:03 Andy Greenwald? Needs more choppers. Black Hawk Down, question mark?
44:08 Chris Ryan? What would Scheider do? Yeah. No, I have at least seven pages of notes about it, and then they mysteriously vanish after a certain point. So I'm pretty sure I just was so into the story, I stopped taking notes in the margins. Though, I read The Odyssey also in college. I was very, you know, kind of surprised to see the arguments over the appropriate translation. I think Emily Wilson's has become the lightning rod here, because it's supposed to be a little bit more, in the more modern vernacular, I guess. And it is interesting, though, because I was flipping through the.
44:46 Andy Greenwald? Sorry, the modern vernacular?
44:48 Chris Ryan? Not like, like, skibidi.
44:50 Andy Greenwald? Oh, shit, Odysseus. Where are you at, RN? You have so much riz, you could come all the way, right?
45:00 Chris Ryan? Damn. Um.
45:03 Andy Greenwald? His wife's looking at me like, you up?
45:04 Chris Ryan? Texting him.
45:07 Chris Ryan? I wish that there was, or I wish that I was participating in some sort of continuing education thing where there were certain books that I do think would be, it's helpful to have them taught as much as they are to be assigned. So like, I always kind of felt this way about Faulkner. It was always like a really, like when I would be reading Faulkner, I would just, I, I, it's, it's a lie. It's that there's a density of the prose and you're, you're obviously, I think, missing something if you don't have somebody who is got an academic background in it, helping you kind of understand what it is I.
45:42 Andy Greenwald? Totally.
45:43 Chris Ryan? So I was thinking about that, though, with, with the, with the Odyssey. I wonder if the film will replace college? I don't know. I mean, will people basically like, be like, yeah, I've read the Odyssey. I saw the movie.
45:56 Andy Greenwald? Yeah. I mean, first of all, yes, that is what people do. I feel like that is fundamental. It, it's, I mean, are you pro this? Like, in the sense because you are generally just pro Nolan? And so, and do we have cast?
46:11 Chris Ryan? Are you asking if I'm pro Christopher Nolan adapting the Odyssey?
46:16 Andy Greenwald? Because you are pro Nolan, are you just like, yes, this seems like an exciting idea? Or do you have like, or immediately doubts forming or caveats that like?
46:26 Chris Ryan? I have no doubts. There are no caveats.
46:28 Andy Greenwald? You're not thinking about?
46:29 Chris Ryan? Also, I don't really feel like Christopher Nolan has done a straight story in his life. You know, like, with the exception maybe of the Batman trilogy, I don't think that he, he takes the subject head on. Like, if he wants, I mean, perhaps he's like, technology has met me where I need it to be. I've always wanted to tell this story. And so this is the right time. I feel like I'm nimble enough. I've mastered my craft enough. The cast wants to do it. And we can bring to life something that like, we could not even have imagined 30 years ago. There's like a way to depict Poseidon or whatever. But like, to me, it's just like, I can't wait to see what he does with this story.
47:10 Andy Greenwald? You just, you don't have like Darren Aronofsky making Noah vibes?
47:13 Chris Ryan? Nah, I don't. Do you?
47:16 Andy Greenwald? No, but I
47:18 Chris Ryan? I mean, with all due respect to Darren Aronofsky, it's a tale of the tape there. You know, like, what? Come on, man. I mean, Darren Aronofsky does not have inception on his resume, right?
47:30 Andy Greenwald? Okay, but now I'm just hung up on the modern, like, I just, when, when, when King of Ithaca, Tom Holland visits the Lotus Eaters and they're just handing out packs of like, what is it? Smooth flavored zins? What would you say was the best one?
47:43 Chris Ryan? Smooth, yeah.
47:45 Andy Greenwald? Like, these are pretty good. We should probably not go home now. He's like, no, spit out the devil's poison. Spit them out, like, but I feel calm. Okay.
47:56 Chris Ryan? Do you have any reading goals for 2025?
47:58 Andy Greenwald? I mean, I, I kind of, it was pretty thrilling to infuriate an entire fandom by, by, by not reading something. So I wonder what I could not read. There's a lot of power in that. My reading goals are, I have, are you a big, like bedside table guy? Like, I have a, just, my, there's my bedside table height. I should get a shorter one because the actual height is the 10 books stacked on top of it.
48:25 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
48:25 Andy Greenwald? Which are both taunting me.
48:27 Chris Ryan? I have a couple of books that I have, like, basically propping up a lamp on my bedside table. So they're like, just to elevate the lamp a little bit. I'm realistic, man. It's like, the book that I'm reading is the book that I'm reading and we're either gonna quit midway through and then quiet quit reading altogether.
48:43 Andy Greenwald? Quiet quit?
48:44 Chris Ryan? Yeah, like, for a little bit. I, I feel like I, I basically put myself in brain prison for a while when I get to a point of inertia with a book.
48:53 Andy Greenwald? I, I mean, I, I'm doing this podcast from my kitchen table right now where my computer is balanced on the beautiful hardcover copy of Three Shades of Blue, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Bill Evans, and the Lost Empire of Cool, which my friend Giancarlo sent me kindly five months ago. And I've continued to tell him, no, I'm reading it. It's really good from page 58. So I think, like, my goals are pretty overt. Can I just say also, though, just to look like a, like a pro tip, if you want to, like, give yourself the feeling of having read one of the Russian greats, but like, you don't have six months to devote to the project, check out my guy Turgenev. Read Fathers and Sons. This stuff's shorter.
49:32 Chris Ryan? No.
49:34 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, this is also a masterpiece.
49:36 Chris Ryan? No, I'm not gonna cheat. I'm not gonna cheat.
49:38 Andy Greenwald? It's not cheating. That's a great book.
49:40 Chris Ryan? I can see you Googling Turgenev to tell me which one to read or which translation to read.
49:44 Andy Greenwald? No, Fathers and Sons.
49:46 Chris Ryan? But who did the translation? That's good.
49:48 Andy Greenwald? Okay, you're a translation guy. This is, this is elite podcasting in your 40s. That's okay.
49:55 Chris Ryan? I have, I don't know what my goal is. I would like to, uh, maybe I'll get back to Devils if I can. What about music, man? Where are you at? How you been? I know you did your festive 50 playlist. I did one of my own, but did not make it public. And there's only 41 songs.
50:16 Chris Ryan? I think that, um, I noticed this week, these last two weeks. So about 10 days ago, on my Instagram story, I put up a song by a guy named Cameron Winter,
50:30 Chris Ryan? who is the lead singer, the frontman for a band called Geese. And he made a solo record called Heavy Metal. And it is unbelievable. I think it's like a fucking masterpiece. It's basically, I think when I texted Fantasy about it, I was like, this is like if Smog was produced by Harry Nilson. I've seen other people compare it to Scott Walker or to Lou Reed. Father John Misty, like, there's a lot of different comparison points you could throw around, but I personally just am really deeply enchanted by his lyrics. They're funny, they're heartbreaking, they're verbose and like dense.
51:09 Chris Ryan? But I noticed that because I had like kind of finished this really like hard run of pods and listening to pods. I had a little bit more brain space to just like let music take over my life and walk around with it. And I just was like, this record happened to come out at like the perfect time for me. And I know that you were like, this is incredible. But it's so funny how like, it's a, At this point in my life, like between podcasts and music, it's like, music has to have like almost this serendipitous moment with me where otherwise I'm just listening to like melodic hardcore all the time. And that's just like my preferred kind of music right now. And I just, I just,
51:52 Chris Ryan? that's the kind of stuff I'm really into. But this record came out and I was just like, this is clearly like my favorite record of the year. Like I haven't felt this way about any other music this year. What I mean, do you find that there are different times of year where this stuff is hitting you harder?
52:08 Andy Greenwald? I think you're on to something really interesting and I loved finding out about this record from you. And that the recommendation engine still works. And I find that one of the reasons why I do the 15 new songs that I love this year playlist, which you can, you can find on my Spotify. It's just my name on Spotify, public profile.
52:28 Chris Ryan? Not the private profile?
52:30 Andy Greenwald? Nah, that's just, that's just for the heads. That it's-
52:34 Chris Ryan? That's just all your audiobooks of The Odyssey. So you could pretend like you read it.
52:38 Andy Greenwald? No, just all the different translations of the great Russian novelist, just so I can be on top of these conversations.
52:43 Chris Ryan? Turn on him, talk.
52:48 Andy Greenwald? That it focuses me at the end of the year to like actually engage with the stuff that I've been dumping in various playlists. And, you know, because one of the books that I want to check out next year, it just came out and there's been a lot of coverage of it is Liz Pelley's book Mood Machine about how Spotify works and also works against-
53:04 Chris Ryan? Careful.
53:06 Andy Greenwald? Passions here. No, no, I'm saying I think it's interesting. And it's kind of true in the sense that like, I realized that probably like the most listened to music of the entire year for separate apart from my rapped, is like a West Montgomery Trio track that finds its way into every single algorithmically designed playlist that I listen to when I'm making dinner, to the point where I'm actively sick of it. And I kind of want to turn off this one track, which is a beautiful track. But instead of playing me the six other things that might be like it or put me in a different direction, it just keeps giving me the same thing.
53:38 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
53:39 Andy Greenwald? So I do find one has to take more of an active role in listening and curation helps with that. One thing, I loved a lot of music this year, but one thing that I am kind of excited about, and I don't know where you are with this, and I don't know if it feels a little bit like nostalgia in an uncomfortable way to you, is this group of teens into their twenties indie kids in Chicago, and the scene, the self-appointed name of the scene is Hallow Gallo, after the Noya song, but that's like bands like Lifeguard and Horse Girl, and Horse Girl has a new record coming out at the beginning of the year, and the first single that I heard from it, Julia, is phenomenal and would have made a list if it had come out a little bit earlier. But this kid, Kai Slater, who makes a zine, re-interviews
54:21 Andy Greenwald? like Letitia from Stereolab, and it's almost like he is performing nostalgia for himself for a time that he didn't exist, but was our childhood. And then he also just casually drops records as The Sharp Pins, including a record called Radio DDR, which is one of the best albums of the year. It's just seemingly effortless, lo-fi guitar pop.
54:41 Chris Ryan? I have literally never heard of this. This is an entire scene that you've just been keeping to yourself?
54:46 Andy Greenwald? No, I just feel like this is out there. People like Lifeguard and Horse Girl are both on Matador.
54:50 Chris Ryan? This is like your little...
54:51 Andy Greenwald? No, they're on Matador, man. Like, I didn't invent this.
54:54 Chris Ryan? I'm bringing Cameron Winter to you. I'm like, fucking Lou Reed walks among us, and you're just like, oh, I just have my little Chicago indie pop fans.
55:00 Andy Greenwald? I made a public playlist. You could dive in anytime you want, but...
55:04 Chris Ryan? I skimmed. I skimmed it.
55:05 Andy Greenwald? Okay, all right. My point is, I find this kind of cute and also inspiring, but mostly I think the songs are really good, and I have not felt the same way about a lot of hyped indie acts who are as... All this is to say, if you're still listening, God bless you, but you know, when we, if people who are listening who are roughly our age, and there were new bands coming out of the 90s, and people who are older than us would be like, oh, yes, it sounds like whatever. I'd be like, whatever, man. Youth is the future. And now we are the people being like, yes, this does sound weirdly like every band that was in New York 20 years ago.
55:40 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
55:41 Andy Greenwald? And I still have access to those bands, so you do you, but I don't need to engage with this. I am not having that response to the Chicago bands, who I think are actually actively engaging with art and culture in an analog way that I find, not just charming, but actually kind of inspiring.
55:55 Chris Ryan? Yeah, that's one of the hardest things about the long lifespan of bands, with no disrespect to them, because everybody should continue to do their thing, but like, it is... I think it's interesting. Do you find yourself more invigorated listening to a younger band do something similar to the bands that you used to like or loved growing up do? Or would you rather just listen to Interpol or continuing to like chip away at like at the wood?
56:27 Andy Greenwald? I think it depends on the band. And I think that, you know, if you love music and you you have the sort of deeply subjective, deeply empathetic relationship to it, I do think that one's compass is often right. Like, there is a spark here. There is an actual engagement. Whereas there's an artist like, and I mean, no disrespect, but like, who records is The Dare?
56:45 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
56:45 Andy Greenwald? And he's fallen in with like Charlie XCX world. And I'm like, yes, I too remembered what it sounded like at pianos in 2003, except I wasn't in preschool. I was there. You know what I mean? And so that's fine. But and then now I sound like losing my edge. But I think I do like bands, like in this year, one of our favorite bands, Los Campesinos, put out a record. And that is a band that I find more engaging as they age because they are aging. And like, the whole band identity was just like, we're kids and you know, we're against the world.
57:16 Chris Ryan? Beautiful and doomed, yeah.
57:17 Andy Greenwald? And gang singing. And now Gareth is like, well, I guess I really do work at a university library now. But I still am moved by art and romance and things. And it sounds a little bit different. And it's a little more world weary. And I really like, I like that because I am also a little bit wearier of the world. So, but then, you know, but then when when youth hits, it hits, you know, listen to these, listen to these Chicago teens. They're trying to tell us something, Chris. They're trying to tell us something.
57:44 Chris Ryan? Only other thing that I will mention that I've been really into recently, music wise, and then we can wrap it up, is, I know you have the same thing, where sometimes with playlists or songs you're looking for on Spotify, you're really chasing a feeling more than you're chasing like, a certain artist or a certain grouping of artists. And ever since I saw The Brutalist. I feel like I have been chasing Brutalist Core, which is broadly like this kind of modern classical meets a little bit of free jazz that you can hear in Daniel Blumberg's score for The Brutalist. And if you haven't, if you get a chance to see The Brutalist in theaters, please go see it. It's one of my favorite movies of the year.
58:25 Chris Ryan? But the music, it's one of the main reasons to see it and to see it loud. And, uh, you know, I was basically like skimming around on Spotify, trying to find stuff that reminded me of that score. And the other day, just like in one of those moments where you're like, fuck, yes, life is okay, is I was walking across church in New York City. It is a wet 50 degree December day. And I was listening to Julius Eastman, who is this really tragic composer musician from the seventies and early eighties, whose work was essentially lost to time after he died, I believe of AIDS in the early eighties, essentially like alone and penniless.
59:08 Chris Ryan? And his music and has since had this like huge revival, or at least a significant revival. And I came across this piece of music called Feminine, which is just absolutely extraordinary. The number seven is the one I was listening to. And it actually like captured the exact thing I wanted. It was like, it was Brutalist Core in its purest form. And I know that that is like such a stupid way to like sum up a huge body of work from really talented and important artists. But I got introduced to a whole new, uh, a whole new person's body of work that way. And it was a very cool moment and I've been listening to his stuff nonstop since then.
59:48 Andy Greenwald? No, I think that one of the signs of really great art or engagement with art is when it completely changes your sense of an aesthetic and, you know, and gives you a full 360 degree. Feeling of creativity and opportunity and like now I want things to sound like this or look like this, or I want to try to have them feel that way again. I haven't seen the movie, but that's exciting. By the way, I do want to say, I didn't know we were just doing the icons on our logo because I did want to advocate for two other life-changing things that I discovered this year.
1:00:19 Chris Ryan? Okay.
1:00:19 Andy Greenwald? And really celebrated, if that's all right. And obviously I have been traveling a lot, so it reflects that. But I do think that we are often sold a bill of goods in terms of like, you know, things that are going to change our lives, whether they are, you know, like life hacks, or I know you're really into the Huberman diet and it's really worked because you see sunshine right away and you've just been a different guy ever since. But of all the things in the last 10 years that have promised me something and under-delivered, only one has truly promised me something and delivered to a degree that I never expected possible. And Chris, that is the Global Entry card from, from the great, still great, United States.
1:00:57 Chris Ryan? You're just saying shit you have now.
1:01:00 Andy Greenwald? No, I'm saying that my greatest experience of the year was flying through the line at the end of only my like, I flew back from London six, I think five or six, seven times? I don't remember this year. And only one of them did I have the status where they were like, yeah, you're fine. It changed me. It changed me. And I don't know if I can ever really go back.
1:01:25 Chris Ryan? But you know, it's not like Sapphire status. All you had to do is go talk to a gentleman at one of our great airports and they would consecrate you with this, with this, they would give you this benefit.
1:01:35 Andy Greenwald? I was worried because there was a period of time when I was traveling and bringing back raw dairy cheeses, just with abandon.
1:01:40 Chris Ryan? No, it's, that's, you picked the right time in human history to be the raw milk delivery man.
1:01:46 Andy Greenwald? That's great. That's great. I was ahead of schedule. I do think that one of the funniest things about Global Entry is that the most common and efficient way to get it is that at the tail end of a no doubt bruising international flight, you then wait in another line to talk to a guy about why you should be allowed to not experience this again. So my, my photo is the worst photo ever taken of anyone.
1:02:07 Chris Ryan? Oh, yeah. I just, I just look like an absolute.
1:02:09 Andy Greenwald? Yeah.
1:02:10 Chris Ryan? I look like a guy who's like, had 14 Guinesses in Say Nothing in my picture. Yeah.
1:02:17 Andy Greenwald? How many had you had?
1:02:19 Chris Ryan? Just six.
1:02:20 Andy Greenwald? Just six. Okay. I was also just going to say letter of recommendation from travel for, for the half pint. I just, I just feel like none of people who, people who have not traveled off into the UK don't realize that it is a relatively normal thing to get half the amount of beer. And that is honestly a game changer as one gets older.
1:02:39 Chris Ryan? Do you ever do that in America?
1:02:42 Andy Greenwald? I haven't, I haven't found a place that does it.
1:02:44 Chris Ryan? I bet places do it, but I bet it's just like, I feel like there's something that you would be looked down on for doing it here.
1:02:54 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, I do a lot of things that are looked down on here. Okay, I know you want to wrap up, but I have one last question for you guys for our free for all episode and Kai, I'd like you in on this as well. I asked, I did prep Chris for this. I don't know if you came up with any answers. I had a moment recently, and this has happened throughout one's life. I think it happens more often to only children. Where there are just things that you assume are universal. And then in the larger bloodstream of your adult life, you find out that some people just didn't grow up that way and do it completely different. For me, it was a birthday cake. And the idea is that I understood growing up is that, and I thought this was standard.
1:03:31 Andy Greenwald? Let's say it's your eighth birthday. How many candles are on your cake at your birthday party?
1:03:37 Chris Ryan? Forty for LeBron James.
1:03:39 Andy Greenwald? Happy birthday. No, really, like at your eighth birthday, how many candles were on the cake?
1:03:43 Chris Ryan? Eight.
1:03:44 Andy Greenwald? See, I thought it was always nine because there's one to grow on. And I thought that was a universal conceit to the point where I would just use that as an analogy of like, no, no, it's just, you know, it's an extra one. But then I was looked at with such just shock and confusion at my presumption that anyone else would. Kai, am I talking crazy?
1:04:04 Chris Ryan? I've never heard of one to grow on, on a cake before.
1:04:07 Speaker 07 Never heard of that. Sorry.
1:04:08 Andy Greenwald? Are you serious?
1:04:09 Chris Ryan? Yeah, definitely, man. I'm sorry. I've never ever.
1:04:12 Andy Greenwald? See, I know I'm coming.
1:04:12 Chris Ryan? Putting that extra candle on because one to grow on.
1:04:14 Andy Greenwald? One candle.
1:04:15 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:04:15 Andy Greenwald? Yeah, that, that's what my parents did. I just thought that was a standard.
1:04:21 Andy Greenwald? Well, I actually don't know how old I am.
1:04:24 Andy Greenwald? This is a real like, real like mask off like,
1:04:26 Chris Ryan? Yeah, maybe you weren't at piano in the 2000s, early 2000s.
1:04:30 Andy Greenwald? I wasn't old enough. Really? So are there any other examples of this that you can think of, of just things that you thought were normal in your household? You know, I'm often, I often think of this when I watch people brush their teeth in movies and television, when they're just constantly drinking and spitting, for example.
1:04:46 Chris Ryan? And I feel bad, but he's, he's not, you know, longer with us and it hasn't been for a while. And I always thought this was like such an amazing moment was, I don't think I knew until I was 15 that not everybody's dad brought a six pack of Bud Light to McDonald's.
1:05:03 Andy Greenwald? This is my favorite.
1:05:07 Chris Ryan? And it was like, my dad and I used to go to 30th Street Station to go to McDonald's as like a guy date. When I was a little kid and he would have a little cooler of BLs. And I was like, that's just what you do. You bring your own beverage to McDonald's.
1:05:22 Andy Greenwald? That's what dads do.
1:05:25 Chris Ryan? That's called doing the work. And it was like, I can't remember what, how it kind of occurred to me that like, that that wasn't what other dads did all the time. But yeah, that was, that's basically mine.
1:05:38 Andy Greenwald? Did you learn eventually by looking at the other booths? Like what?
1:05:42 Chris Ryan? No, you know, I mean, I was locked in on that Quarter Pounder, man. Like I was just like, this is, this is about as good as it gets. I mean, McDonald's is really like, that's, that's the original corner store.
1:05:52 Andy Greenwald? It is. It still is.
1:05:54 Chris Ryan? What about you, Kaya?
1:05:55 Speaker 07 Oh gosh, I don't know if I, nothing is coming to mind off the top of my head, but Chris, I really love that. That is a beautiful memory from your childhood.
1:06:05 Andy Greenwald? I mean, I do think that, and Kaya, you have a sibling. So maybe it's different, but like, I do have a lot of, I think it's very only child.
1:06:11 Chris Ryan? Yeah, it happens a lot for only children where you're just like, oh, I like, nobody gave me the guidebook. Also for, for like only children who go to Quaker School. I think we're kept from a lot of things. Like saying grace.
1:06:26 Andy Greenwald? Oh, sure.
1:06:26 Chris Ryan? My, my wife's family does grace before holiday meals. Like I try to jump in there like refines and conclave. I'm like, cause I don't get to do that very often, you know? So I'm just like, we gotta get this demon out of Reagan, you know?
1:06:41 Andy Greenwald? I thought you meant the opposite. I thought you meant that you keep getting caught off guard because your hand is already inside the cooler you brought.
1:06:48 Chris Ryan? Oh, yeah. Cause I'm DL number four. Yeah.
1:06:51 Andy Greenwald? I, I just remember like in, I feel, I talked about this recently, maybe with you, but certainly not on the microphone, but like on, on any times in my childhood, when my father was out of town for work or whatever, my mom would be like, oh, what should we have, should we have our usual dinner at this night without dad here? And I was like, yes. And usual dinner was potato chip dip, which was, which was a brick of Philadelphia cream cheese in the food processor with one onion and just a healthy, long squirt of ketchup and then some ridged hers potato chips. I'd be like, mm, dinner time.
1:07:27 Chris Ryan? I'll just go over and curl up with the Odyssey.
1:07:30 Andy Greenwald? That was, that was my version of girl dinner. I guess that was boy dinner.
1:07:34 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:07:34 Andy Greenwald? In the eighties or my mom's version of it. But again, like you just don't have, especially as an only child, you don't have the barometer of someone else's face taking this in. So I'm like, well, it's just normal. Pop open a new bag. Life's a mystery, man.
1:07:48 Chris Ryan? Greenwald, I'll see you on Thursday. Thanks to Kai for producing us this goofy little episode. We'll be back to talk about agency and land man and maybe some more Squid Game on Thursday in person.
1:07:57 Andy Greenwald? And guys, January is the 13th birthday of this podcast, which means 14 candles on our podcast birthday cake.
1:08:06 Chris Ryan? Bye, guys.
1:08:06 Andy Greenwald? Happy new year, Baranskis.
1:08:22 Speaker 01 You're receipt it. The Sausage Muffin with Egg Extra Value Meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5. Only at McDonald's for a limited time. Pricing participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.
1:08:36 Speaker 06 What's the secret to being a great host this season? Keeping things deliciously simple. Like mixing Simply Cranberry into a festive drink as guests arrive. Or serving up a warm mug of Simply Apple on a chilly night. That means less time behind the scenes and more time in the moment with everyone. Crafted with real fruit, Simply juices and fruit drinks make any holiday drink effortless, inviting, and completely delicious. Simply. Say yes to simple.
Previous The ‘Superman’ Trailer, ‘Landman’ Episode 7, and ‘The Agency’ Episodes 4 and 5 Next Is TV Marketing Broken? Plus, ‘The Agency’ Ep. 6 and ‘Landman’ Ep. 8. Page updated November 5, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated