Pod Insights The Watch Jason Mantzoukas and Mallory Rubin on ‘Shoresy’ Season 5. Plus, ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ S2 Casting News, and a ‘Game of Thrones’ Film. Jason Mantzoukas and Mallory Rubin on ‘Shoresy’ Season 5. Plus, ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ S2 Casting News, and a ‘Game of Thrones’ Film. The Watch
Hosted by Chris Ryan
Original podcast
About this episode Chris is joined by Jason Mantzoukas and Mallory Rubin to talk about the Season 2 casting news for ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ (2:25) and that ‘Andor’ writer Beau Willimon is taking on a ‘Game of Thrones’ movie (8:46). Then, they discuss the fifth season of ‘Shoresy’ and what makes the show so special (22:01).
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Host: Chris Ryan
Guest: Jason Mantzoukas and Mallory Rubin
Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady
Additional Video Supervision: Jacob Cornett
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Transcript 19,510 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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2:11 Chris Ryan? Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com and joining me in a new studio after receiving what could only be described as a monsoon of laffies, it's Mallory Rubin and our special guest, one of the great watchers of Tryon halls, Jason Mantzoukas.
2:32 Speaker 01 Let's go!
2:34 Chris Ryan? Come on!
2:35 Speaker 01 Fucking go! From our text chain-
2:38 Chris Ryan? Settle down.
2:38 Speaker 01 To the studio. Settle down, everyone.
2:40 Speaker 06 Settle down. Give your balls a tug.
2:42 Chris Ryan? We are here to talk about the fifth season of Shoresy, as promised.
2:45 Speaker 01 You're doing a great job setting the tone, CR.
2:47 Chris Ryan? Thank you, brother.
2:48 Speaker 06 You gotta set the tone.
2:49 Speaker 01 You gotta set the tone.
2:50 Speaker 06 I texted you guys last night, "Give your balls a tug." Neither of you replied.
2:54 Speaker 01 No, I did. No, I did. I did, which I felt like as commanded.
2:59 Chris Ryan? It didn't seem like appropriate to be like, "I've completed the cast."
3:02 Speaker 01 How did she know they were so cramped up in there?
3:04 Chris Ryan? Uh, Jason Mantzoukas and I, we did Shoresy season four.
3:07 Speaker 06 I remember. Yeah, and I stood outside of the studio-
3:11 Speaker 01 Oh, heartbreaking.
3:12 Speaker 06 And waited for you two to emerge to tell you that I have genuinely never in my life felt so betrayed by two people I considered dear, dear friends.
3:22 Chris Ryan? Yeah, so Mall likes Shoresy too and I didn't want a workplace complaint against me.
3:27 Speaker 01 But you kept saying, "This one's just for the boys."
3:30 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
3:31 Speaker 06 I thought- The boys or the boys?
3:33 Speaker 01 The boys.
3:34 Chris Ryan? Um, but no, I would never do season, another season of Shoresy, I will never do without you.
3:39 Speaker 06 Sure, yeah.
3:40 Chris Ryan? Uh, you love this more purely than almost anything in your life, I think.
3:44 Speaker 06 I do like this show a lot.
3:45 Speaker 01 Oh, obsessed. Obsessed with this show. I'm, I, and some, one of the nerds that loves this show will figure out is, I recommended this show on The Watch-
3:54 Chris Ryan? Yes.
3:55 Speaker 01 At least a year before I think you even started watching.
3:57 Chris Ryan? Absolutely. I was just like, you're like Letter Kenny and I was like, "Yeah, but like, that's kinda dull sometimes."
4:02 Speaker 06 Yeah.
4:02 Chris Ryan? Uh, this is one of my favorite shows. It's been in my top 10 the last two years.
4:07 Speaker 01 Love it.
4:07 Chris Ryan? I think it probably will be again this year.
4:09 Speaker 06 No question.
4:09 Speaker 01 Oh, easily.
4:10 Chris Ryan? We're gonna get to Shoresy. We're gonna probably talk a little bit of heater rivalry because of the extended-
4:14 Speaker 06 Ooh, exciting.
4:15 Chris Ryan? Uh, Canadian hockey TV pipeline and the Jacob Tierney connection that-
4:19 Speaker 06 Sure.
4:20 Chris Ryan? No longer really exists with Shoresy, but I think it's important to talk about. And we'll talk about some other stuff, obviously. To start with, I wanted to, since I have two of the biggest Game of Thrones fans- In my life, I think.
4:31 Speaker 06 Yeah.
4:31 Chris Ryan? Chat a little bit about some developments in Westeros?
4:34 Speaker 01 Let's go.
4:34 Speaker 06 Do it.
4:35 Chris Ryan? Number one is that-
4:36 Speaker 01 Let's take a trip.
4:37 Chris Ryan? Just TV is being TV and they're shooting Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I think they are in production. And Night of the Seven Kingdoms casting is Lucy Boynton, who people might remember from Sing Street. Horrorheads might remember from Black Coat's daughter.
4:50 Speaker 01 Okay, I think everybody remembers that.
4:52 Speaker 06 Not familiar.
4:53 Chris Ryan? She is playing Lady Rohan.
4:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, I like it.
4:56 Speaker 06 One of the main characters in season two.
4:58 Chris Ryan? One of the most exciting developments, Babu Sisay from Alien Earth.
5:02 Speaker 06 Freaked out when I saw this.
5:02 Speaker 01 Awesome.
5:03 Speaker 06 Morrow.
5:03 Chris Ryan? Is playing Sir Benis.
5:05 Speaker 06 Benis of the Brown Shield, Benis the Brown. A truly deranged character. I can't wait.
5:10 Speaker 01 A wild character.
5:12 Chris Ryan? Peter Mullen.
5:12 Speaker 01 See, Art, wait a minute. Have you, because of Talk the Thrones, because of House of R, I did something that I've never done before, which was I read Game of Thrones books.
5:27 Chris Ryan? Okay.
5:27 Speaker 01 And so, and when I say I've read them, I mean, I listened to the audio books.
5:33 Speaker 06 It's a wonderful audiobook experience.
5:34 Speaker 01 For these novellas, and they are incredible. And all three books are a sum total of nine hours long.
5:41 Speaker 06 I've tried to convince him that you could do it in a day.
5:44 Speaker 01 And it is so great, I cannot recommend it enough.
5:46 Chris Ryan? I don't doubt that I would love it. Here's my thing. If I become a guy who also reads books, then what's the angle I bring to Talk the Thrones?
5:55 Speaker 01 Okay.
5:56 Speaker 06 What's the angle you bring now to Talk the Thrones? You're a beautiful, shining personality. Your spirit and your essence, is reading a novella gonna sap the world?
6:05 Chris Ryan? But I am a guy who goes, I haven't read the book, so explain to me what this means.
6:10 Speaker 01 So you want, you're trying to maintain your posi-
6:13 Speaker 06 This is such a bullshit excuse. This is embarrassing.
6:16 Speaker 01 Ignorance is my bit.
6:18 Chris Ryan? This would be like if Pete Hegseth stopped doing pushups.
6:21 Speaker 01 Okay, okay. This is like, I've only been here 15 minutes, this is the third time you've compared yourself to Hegseth.
6:29 Speaker 06 Well, got news for you. I've been with them all day. The tally is higher.
6:33 Speaker 01 You also said you don't podcast with fatties, which I thought was super weird and gross.
6:40 Chris Ryan? The last cast member of Night of the Seven Kingdoms, season two, is Peter Mullen, who people may remember as being a fucking scumbag on Ozark.
6:49 Speaker 01 And one of the great actors of our time.
6:52 Chris Ryan? A great character actor, yeah.
6:53 Speaker 01 An absolute monster of an actor that is like just sneaking through the world, just giving unreal performance after unreal performance.
7:02 Chris Ryan? Did you ever see him on the streets of London when you were doing Taskmaster?
7:04 Speaker 01 When I was doing Taskmaster, I remember just walking the streets of London and being like, "Hey, Petey Mullen."
7:10 Chris Ryan? It's Trudy Tench.
7:11 Speaker 01 "Hey, DJ D, what's up?"
7:15 Chris Ryan? So, excitement abounds. And how does it feel as a longtime Thrones chronicler to be right back in it where you're like, "Okay, the ball's, the boulder's going downhill. We're gonna get this next year."
7:29 Speaker 06 I mean, it's the thrill of a lifetime, not only to have a good show, but to have it in our lives consistently. Like, I'm higher on House of the Dragon than many are, as we've discussed.
7:39 Chris Ryan? I think so.
7:41 Speaker 06 But having to wait, you know, multiple years between seasons is painful. So, it's great to know that we're gonna get Night of the Seven Kingdoms every year and that there's a continuity of character, Dunk and Egg. We have this like wonderful investment after six episodes now in that relationship. And then we get to meet new people because we're in a new place. And the ideas of the novellas that they're like, "Where are these guys at this moment in time? And what is this story and this adventure? Who is gonna move into the show and into their lives as a result?" To get to do that every winter or spring, or whatever the calendar ends up being, is like an absolute delight.
8:15 Speaker 01 One of the things that I think is so difficult, and I feel like both of you talk about on your shows, is this collision of prestige TV, high-end, elevated television, these shows that are hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to produce and take a year to make and huge, just like the ambition is off the charts. The shows are huge. And then we also talk about, or you talk about, and I've talked about as well, just, boy, isn't it fun to have TV?
8:45 Chris Ryan? Sure.
8:45 Speaker 01 The pit, things that feel like TV.
8:48 Speaker 06 Yes.
8:48 Speaker 01 And now I feel like A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, or something like Slow Horses, is threading the needle.
8:54 Speaker 06 My favorite.
8:54 Speaker 01 Slow Horses is, you are doing an incredible show that has scale and scope, fantastic performances, but it comes out every 10 months.
9:03 Speaker 06 Yes.
9:03 Speaker 01 A new season, boom. And if they can, knowing the novellas, as I now do, as a well-read Westerosi.
9:11 Chris Ryan? An audiobook subscriber, yeah.
9:13 Speaker 01 Oh, yes, with an Audible account, don't worry about it. Or, you know what, a Spotify account, if you will.
9:18 Speaker 06 This is a Spotify podcast?
9:20 Chris Ryan? I like testing the limits a little bit.
9:23 Speaker 01 I bet they bleeped.
9:24 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
9:24 Speaker 01 I bet the whole time is just bleeped off if I say [BLEEP]. Uh, or [BLEEP] or [BLEEP]. Spotify doesn't want the libraries to get the subscribers. So I think.
9:36 Chris Ryan? Burning library cards.
9:38 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. Oh, I think Spotify put all the libraries out of business.
9:41 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
9:43 Speaker 01 Pretty much, right?
9:43 Chris Ryan? Were they really ever in business?
9:45 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, for-profit libraries.
9:47 Chris Ryan? It was just like late fees? That's a good idea, though, dude.
9:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:51 Chris Ryan? Should we get into that?
9:52 Speaker 01 For-profit libraries.
9:54 Speaker 06 We can call it a bookstore.
9:56 Chris Ryan? Yeah, but like, you can't, you have to bring it back, though.
9:58 Speaker 06 What do you think?
9:59 Chris Ryan? You have to bring the book back. We charge you $13.
10:02 Speaker 06 Okay.
10:02 Chris Ryan? But you still have to bring the book back.
10:03 Speaker 06 What are you paying for?
10:04 Speaker 01 It's a book rental.
10:05 Chris Ryan? It's like Blockbuster for books.
10:06 Speaker 06 It's Hollywood Video or Blockbuster. Are you paying for early access? You get to cut the line? Are you paying for a recommendation? C R's picks?
10:14 Speaker 01 I love curation. That's great.
10:16 Chris Ryan? Yeah. I would rather be the old-school version, because you know, like, the librarian, it would just be like, you call and you'd be like, what's the weather tomorrow? And they'd have to answer, right?
10:25 Speaker 01 Remember when you used to call the weather? Did you guys used to call the weather?
10:29 Chris Ryan? People would call the newspaper to get the weather.
10:31 Speaker 01 Oh, interesting.
10:31 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
10:33 Speaker 06 We're really old.
10:34 Chris Ryan? I'm older than you, so you probably don't remember that.
10:36 Speaker 01 Oh, and I'm older than both of you by a bunch.
10:37 Speaker 06 But I am older in spirit, and I would say probably if you did some testing, also body. Than both of you.
10:43 Speaker 01 Oh, please. My body is in active collapse.
10:47 Chris Ryan? Jason, you mentioned the TV-ification of Game of Thrones. I thought this was really interesting, that this week. Among everything else that's happening in Hollywood with Paramount and Warner Brothers, and Andy and I are gonna talk about this-
10:58 Speaker 01 Wait, what's going on with Paramount and Warner Brothers?
10:59 Chris Ryan? They, uh, they bought each other.
11:01 Speaker 01 Uh-oh.
11:02 Chris Ryan? And me and Andy will probably get more into that on Monday. But, it came out, and I believe Variety first, but widely reported, that Bo Williman has a script for a Game of Thrones movie-
11:13 Speaker 06 Yep.
11:13 Chris Ryan? That, I dunno, they're moving forward on, that it's, the draft is in. This has been reportedly, it centers on Aegon's conquest?
11:22 Speaker 06 So, we've been hearing for some time that the Aegon's conquest story that was in development could end up being a movie, right?
11:29 Chris Ryan? Yes.
11:31 Speaker 06 I pitched this to Joe in real time yesterday on House of R, on our Mailbag episode. I dunno if there's enough opportunity, enough of a window here, to change what this movie's about. I think Aegon's conquest as a movie at some point in time would be great.
11:43 Chris Ryan? Do you mean within the confines of this podcast?
11:45 Speaker 06 Yeah.
11:45 Chris Ryan? Or like, you could get Casey on the phone and be like, okay?
11:47 Speaker 06 Both. Casey listens to the watch, Casey if you're listening.
11:49 Chris Ryan? He only listens to Andy, yeah.
11:51 Speaker 06 Can we call Andy? Can we get him in? He doesn't want Shoresy.
11:54 Speaker 01 He's a huge Shoresy.
11:55 Speaker 06 He's not here today. Uh, I think that this movie should be a Blackfire Rebellion movie, a first Blackfire Rebellion movie, so that we stay in continuity in the timeline. And then it's also like, clarifying, why is this a movie? Why is this a show? Because we're in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, in this stretch of the canon as a television show, we're glimpsing, oh, we were at the red grass field, we're hearing people say Blackfire Pretender, give us, in real time in our lives, a movie about this key event at this stretch of the canon.
12:24 Speaker 01 Do you think, though, my question would be, are they doing the math and saying, a movie at this scale-
12:31 Speaker 06 Yeah.
12:32 Speaker 01 Is four years away from being released?
12:35 Speaker 06 Probably.
12:35 Speaker 01 We will have done all the Dunkin' Egg stories-
12:39 Speaker 06 Well, they're gonna be doing Dunkin' Egg for 15 years, but they will be finished doing House of the Dragon by then. So that, that does alleviate a little bit of the, we have Game of Thrones here, we have House of the Dragon here, we have A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms here, we have Aegon's conquest here. That's, I think, disorienting to ask people to track that many points of Targaryen history simultaneously. I do think Aegon's conquest would be a great movie, and better probably as a movie than a show.
13:00 Chris Ryan? The reason why I just raised an eyebrow when I saw this story come out was, obviously, a lot of panic going on about what this merger means for jobs in Hollywood, etc., and like, the content pipeline. But I think also there's like, some sweat- Like some well-earned sweat going on about like what happens to some of the franchises, some of the IP that belonged to Warner Brothers and them being transferred over to Paramount. And this to me was like, be cool. It's still, it's still in the works and like, maybe this will be like a big thing that, you know, Skydance Paramount throws itself behind. I personally, as somebody who's just a glass half-full guy.
13:38 Speaker 06 Always, yeah.
13:39 Chris Ryan? Taylor Sheridan, George R.R. Martin shared universe, Westeros Sacario.
13:42 Speaker 01 Let's go.
13:43 Chris Ryan? Fucking, let's get.
13:45 Speaker 06 You have my attention, sir.
13:46 Chris Ryan? Jeffrey Donovan from Sacario.
13:47 Speaker 01 Done.
13:48 Chris Ryan? Tac vests and big glasses.
13:50 Speaker 01 This sounds, I would love for these things to just start collapsing into each other. That was my favorite, uh, my favorite never made, but intended to be made sequel, which was,
14:03 Speaker 01 which was 24 Jump Street Men in Black Four.
14:06 Chris Ryan? Yes, right.
14:07 Speaker 01 Which was that those two things would collide with each other.
14:10 Chris Ryan? Scripts that got to like, all the way up to like the main, the last desk it needed to clear and they were like, no.
14:16 Speaker 01 What are we doing?
14:17 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
14:17 Speaker 01 But I love, I love that conceptually.
14:19 Speaker 06 This is great.
14:20 Speaker 01 But it really is like, you know, these are worlds that I'm genuinely like, what is about to happen? Inside of Harry Potter, inside of this, inside, yeah.
14:30 Speaker 06 Episode trailer.
14:31 Speaker 01 You're talking about in regards to this specific merger.
14:33 Chris Ryan? Sure.
14:34 Speaker 01 But I think that is, like, we're having that conversation in terms of what's going on with Star Wars. What does Star Wars look like right now? You know, Mandalorian and Grogu trailer question mark.
14:45 Speaker 06 Refuses to engage.
14:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:46 Speaker 06 He has said, and he has been pushed and has refused to budge. He's not gonna see the movie.
14:50 Chris Ryan? Sorry for having.
14:51 Speaker 01 Not gonna see the movie?
14:52 Speaker 06 Which I think is.
14:53 Speaker 01 Now that's interesting.
14:53 Chris Ryan? Yeah, it's just principles.
14:55 Speaker 06 Principles.
14:55 Speaker 01 Principles, and what are those principles?
14:57 Speaker 06 Walk us through it.
14:58 Speaker 01 What do you stand for?
14:59 Chris Ryan? A principle is when you're like, I'm not gonna go watch.
15:02 Speaker 06 Right.
15:03 Chris Ryan? This volume.
15:04 Speaker 06 This is good. He's not telling us what his principles are. He's just telling us what a principle is conceptually.
15:09 Chris Ryan? Well, here's what I thought about. I thought about tripling down and being like, no more Star Wars after Andor. It's, it's over, it's done.
15:15 Speaker 01 By the way.
15:16 Speaker 06 This is, this is toxic. I don't like this at all.
15:18 Speaker 01 It's toxic, but I will agree in the sense that.
15:21 Chris Ryan? How's it toxic?
15:22 Speaker 01 In a world in which CRU have continued. Well, no, actually, you've you've let up a little bit on one of your other principles, which was no animation.
15:30 Chris Ryan? Yes, I I've softened.
15:31 Speaker 01 You have softened for animation some, and I will say Star Wars animation is without a doubt.
15:37 Speaker 06 Wonderful.
15:37 Speaker 01 The best with and or accepted some of the best Star Wars of the last 25 years is in animation form, full stop. You know, and I'm I'm I worry about the next round of stuff as much as everybody. I'm also lamenting the loss of the Damon Lindelof, Lakeith Stansfield starring Jedi story. That's like, where is that? Give me that, you know? And so like all of these worlds that we love, boy, am I nervous about what's about to happen to all of them.
16:07 Chris Ryan? There's also this funny thing that's happening, and I imagine you must feel this because you're you're kind of like trying to watch these stories develop over the course of years when you're doing House of R. Where like, I feel like maybe some of these franchises that we identify so deeply with are not appealing to younger people and that they're like, for me, it's Super Mario Brothers. And I know that that's like, or like, some of the stuff where you're like, oh, man, this video game is really hitting for people like this. Like this adaptation of a video game, whereas like, we're still like, no, there's another way to do Star Wars, man. We can do one more thing.
16:42 Speaker 01 Why can't there be myriad ways? Why can't there be Star Wars content that is for younger people?
16:49 Speaker 06 This is why I said his, I'm stopping Star Wars after Andor take is toxic because for that exact reason. The thing that allowed us to get the brilliance and unrivaled excellence of Andor in the first place, of course, is Tony Gilroy's genius, a really clear vision, etc. But it was like, we're going to do something that is specifically utterly itself.
17:07 Speaker 01 Yes.
17:08 Speaker 06 So then if everybody else is like, the only good Star Wars is Andor, or I want to try to make Andor, then everything is going to be ubiquitous and samey and diluted and bad.
17:17 Speaker 01 And I think the other thing is we can't just be doing fan service for the fans who are like, listen, I nobody should be really listening to me. Star Wars shouldn't be for 53 year olds.
17:28 Speaker 06 No, I think it should be for everybody.
17:30 Speaker 01 It should be for everybody, I'm saying, but it should be aimed at a younger audience.
17:35 Speaker 06 If I do. I intend to still be watching Star Wars.
17:38 Speaker 01 Oh, and I love it. And I watch all of it, every, every scrap of it. You know, like, and I'm, I'm listening to the audiobooks. I'm listening, I'm all of it. I'm all in on Star Wars, but I'm not saying all Star Wars needs to be Andor, because Andor is unquestionably a mature show, you know? There should be stuff that we should be like, oh, this is, you know, not for me, because it's aimed at a young audience, which is perfect, you know? We need to be bringing still people, bringing people in, but.
18:08 Speaker 06 Aren't, we have a few colleagues and close friends who have young children, who are falling in love with Star Wars in real time.
18:14 Chris Ryan? I think I'm thinking about it more in terms of like.
18:16 Speaker 06 And they just want Uncle Chris to take them to see Mando Grogu, and he says, fuck off.
18:20 Chris Ryan? Yeah. What's the dream about what happened in the movie theaters last year in 2025? Is the success of One Battle Centers and Weapons? And people saying like, original movies are back. These kinds of stories resonate with people because it aren't rehashes of, you know, the same like three films over and over and over again. We can break out of these like templates that we have. And then on the flip side of that, a lot of box office success was rooted in things like Minecraft?
18:48 Speaker 01 Oh, don't pretend.
18:50 Chris Ryan? No, I, for a second, I was like, did they make a Mineswe?
18:53 Speaker 01 Minecraft?
18:54 Chris Ryan? I, I thought they maybe made a Mineswe movie, but that would be pretty boring.
18:58 Speaker 01 I don't believe this for a second.
19:00 Chris Ryan? I'm sorry, I'm just a leftist Andor fan. No, I'm just joking. I, I will watch more Star Wars. I just.
19:07 Speaker 01 No, no, I agree with you because.
19:08 Chris Ryan? Specifically, Mando Grogu, there, there, there's something wrong with this movie.
19:12 Speaker 06 It connects to the opening, hey, let's talk about the new cast of A Night at the Seven Kingdoms, season two point, right? Because it's like the part of the reason that that show was such like a jolt for Game of Thrones fans and such an animating experience of like, not just is this good? It is. Does the show understand what it's trying to be? Yes. Is the tone clear? Yes. Is the sensibility established? Yes. You felt in real time and it built week after week. People were excited, not only to consume it, but to share it with each other. So I see this cast list today for three of the main roles in the second. Season and I am levitating.
19:47 Speaker 01 Sure.
19:47 Speaker 06 I feel as alive as I have as a Thrones fan in years because it's like, these are excellent performers who are coming in to perform crucial roles for a moment in time. Right? And it's gonna be beautiful. It's six weeks and I can't wait. And that's all we need because it knows what it is.
20:01 Speaker 01 And I think that this show, Night of the Seven Kingdoms, is interested in telling slice of life, short form stories, you know? And that is something that larger IP driven stuff, whether it's the MCU, whether it's all the Star Wars, whether it's all that stuff are predominantly interested in stories that are too interwoven with the rest of their stories. And it has become unwieldy. Unless you are.
20:28 Chris Ryan? This was the success of Wonder Man to me.
20:29 Speaker 01 Yes.
20:29 Speaker 06 Yeah.
20:30 Speaker 01 Incredible.
20:30 Chris Ryan? Wonder Man should just be like a model for Marvel going forward and instead it's gonna be an anomaly, I would imagine.
20:36 Speaker 01 Well, wouldn't it be great for some, if they could figure out both? If they could figure it out so that it wasn't feast or famine, so that it wasn't one or the other, that they're servicing a larger, comics does this. Comics can do storytelling where you are following an issue to issue storyline in Daredevil that is about Hell's Kitchen and one of, one law case that he's pursuing. But then, yes, he is part of a larger event that's happening that includes Doctor Strange and Spider-Man and team ups and all the rest. How can you figure out how to tell grounded, street level stories while that, like Wonder Man, that feels like a cohesive whole, but that doesn't concern itself with multiverse
21:19 Speaker 01 or what's Loki up to or any other nonsense?
21:22 Speaker 06 What if we put Trevor Slattery in everything?
21:24 Speaker 01 By the way, and just let them do Shakespeare monologues all the time? I loved it.
21:29 Chris Ryan? Um, you know, and I think also there's a little bit of, uh.
21:31 Speaker 06 Did you get rid of your computer? Now I'm gonna get rid of mine. We go in no computer?
21:34 Chris Ryan? I don't need it. You're my two favorite people and this is a show I can, I can talk about with my eyes closed.
21:39 Speaker 01 We are your two favorite people. I love this. Andy, you can eat shit, bro.
21:44 Speaker 06 Is one of my favorite people.
21:45 Speaker 01 Yeah. Oh, I love it. Now we just compete.
21:48 Chris Ryan? You can guess. Uh, all right. I want to get to Shoresy in a second. I do want to say one more thing about Star Wars. Here's the thing.
21:53 Speaker 06 Okay.
21:54 Chris Ryan? There is. Is a issue with that franchise that I think is like a little bit of too big to succeed. So they are now.
22:03 Speaker 01 To succeed.
22:04 Chris Ryan? Cause they're operating at a margin where they're like, it costs X amount to make one of these things. And so it needs to be Y amount of a success for it to be worth it. And so the reason why I almost feel like Charlie Brown with the football with some of this stuff is that when they first started talking about Kenobi, it was the guy who wrote Drive and it was supposed to be Ben Kenobi, like noir detective. Jedi detective. Acolyte clearly went through some kind of like transformation in its, from its inception to its actual release. Like they have messed with this stuff for the most part. And the reason why Andor is Andor for a hundred reasons is because they almost wrote it where it's like, you can't do anything to this.
22:46 Chris Ryan? Like there, you could, you can have Vader walk across the screen if you want, but for the most part, this thing is like so, it's like a watch, like you wouldn't be able to do anything with the gears and the, and the, and the hands, you know what I mean?
22:59 Speaker 01 I also think they, they trapped themselves in a,
23:05 Speaker 01 in a process that did not reward building a new like thing. Like they, from the foundation built something weak, you know, without a, without a plan, looking ahead, with just kind of freestyling movie to movie for that first trilogy.
23:21 Speaker 06 Would you say there was one fatal flaw inside of the machine and that if you just?
23:27 Chris Ryan? And if you just like put the shield up.
23:29 Speaker 01 If you just don't put the shield away, you put the aim, the device away and just trusted your. Um, I mean, I would say like the thing that they didn't do with all of Star Wars. And that boy, do I hope Filoni will remedy it is, uh, is exactly, uh, the advice that Shoresy would give them. Go out, kill some guys.
23:53 Speaker 06 Fucking pro.
23:55 Speaker 01 Score some goals. Score some goals. Make sure they never forget who you are.
23:59 Speaker 06 Never let them forget who you are. Who are we?
24:02 Chris Ryan? Let's talk about the Sudbury Blueberry Bulldogs.
24:04 Speaker 01 Yes!
24:05 Chris Ryan? So for casuals who are just along for the ride for a few minutes here, let me talk a little bit about Shoresy broadly. This is a now-long-running Canadian sports comedy from Jared Kiso, who previously had done the incredibly-long-running Letter Kenny, which was a
24:21 Speaker 01 Ten seasons.
24:22 Chris Ryan? Canadian slice-of-life comedy. When Jared Kiso first started Shoresy, it was in creative tandem somewhat with Jacob Tierney, who has since gone on to great acclaim for his writing and directing work on Heat Rivalry, where he makes one of the most assured TV series in recent memory.
24:40 Speaker 01 Oh, and one of the most explosive
24:42 Chris Ryan? Yes.
24:42 Speaker 01 in every way.
24:43 Chris Ryan? Yes. And Jared Kiso, so he writes every episode, I believe, is credited to Kiso? I think there might be.
24:55 Speaker 01 No, there's some, I think there's a couple of other people.
24:57 Chris Ryan? But he did every episode this season.
24:59 Speaker 01 I think so.
24:59 Chris Ryan? And the first-
25:00 Speaker 06 If you had a computer open, you could check.
25:02 Speaker 01 And Shoresy is a character in Letter Kenny. For many seasons in Letter Kenny, Shoresy is an unseen character that Jared Kiso plays.
25:11 Chris Ryan? Okay.
25:12 Speaker 01 So Kiso plays Shoresy in the show Shoresy that we watch, but he plays Wayne on Letter Kenny, one of the leads.
25:18 Chris Ryan? Right.
25:18 Speaker 01 But invents this side-character who's a hockey player who's constantly taunting other hockey players, but it's always from like a bathroom stall or a shower.
25:28 Chris Ryan? Right.
25:29 Speaker 01 He's visually obfuscated.
25:32 Chris Ryan? Yes. The first three seasons of Shoresy are essentially a cycle about a semi-pro senior-league hockey team in Sudbury, rising from the-
25:44 Speaker 06 Should we start calling it Burberry in honor of the great one? Wayne Gretzky, who called it Burberry instead of Sudbury?
25:50 Speaker 01 Really funny.
25:50 Speaker 06 The most incredible moments of the season.
25:52 Chris Ryan? Shout out to everybody writing into the Watch mailbox, thewatchatspotify.com, because a lot of insight into how Canadians are feeling about Wayne Gretzky, the great one, these days.
26:01 Speaker 01 Oh, really?
26:02 Chris Ryan? Mixed.
26:03 Speaker 01 How so?
26:03 Chris Ryan? Mixed.
26:04 Speaker 01 Mixed why? I'm curious.
26:05 Chris Ryan? I think that his-
26:06 Speaker 01 Is there, or is there news, or has this always been the case?
26:09 Chris Ryan? No, it's just, I think Wayne's gone out of his way to associate himself with our president here in the United States of America.
26:15 Speaker 01 I didn't know that.
26:16 Chris Ryan? And our president has talked a lot about colonizing Canada.
26:20 Speaker 01 Oh, no, I made a 51st state joke at a How Did This Get Made show in Vancouver, and they were not into it.
26:31 Speaker 01 They were not into it and booed me for quite a while.
26:35 Chris Ryan? Because of the joke or because of the idea behind the joke?
26:39 Speaker 01 I think because of the idea behind the joke.
26:41 Chris Ryan? They weren't like, hey.
26:42 Speaker 01 Even that I, they, they wouldn't even entertain the joke of it. It was, they, they, they shut it down.
26:49 Chris Ryan? So that came up, but you know, and then, so they do the first three seasons. I think a flawless three season run. Which isn't to say there are really any flaws with four and five. It's just a different show. It's now about a post playing career for our titular character.
27:03 Speaker 06 Yep.
27:04 Chris Ryan? The, uh, fourth season I thought was lovely. Jason and I talked about it a lot.
27:08 Speaker 06 Yeah, you sure did.
27:08 Chris Ryan? Um.
27:09 Speaker 06 You sure did.
27:10 Speaker 01 Fourth season was a blast because it's like, the show has so few moves to make in terms of these people and where they are. And it's constantly calibrating and recalibrating them in context of the game, the, the league and each other in a wonderful way. Uh, but the fourth season did two incredible things, which was it introduced a series of young people that, that our team became the kind of mentors to, like teenagers.
27:39 Chris Ryan? Yes.
27:39 Speaker 01 And the entire fourth season took place off season.
27:43 Chris Ryan? Yes.
27:43 Speaker 01 So it was about.
27:45 Speaker 06 Summer in Sud Vegas.
27:46 Speaker 01 Yes, it was all about summer break. And so the vibes were so different and what, and I, and it was such a refreshing way to tell Shoresy stories.
27:53 Chris Ryan? Yes.
27:54 Speaker 01 And plus the love story between Shoresy.
27:56 Chris Ryan? Uh, and Laura.
27:57 Speaker 01 And Laura is incredible in that season.
27:59 Chris Ryan? Yes, which takes another step this season, so.
28:02 Speaker 01 Which was why I was shocked when we did our, our season for wrap up, that you were insistent on not having Mal. You know?
28:10 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
28:11 Speaker 01 You know, it's, it's, cause I was like, she's right there.
28:14 Speaker 06 She's literally looking through the door.
28:17 Chris Ryan? Wearing a Bulldogs jersey. I don't remember why I didn't have you on.
28:21 Speaker 06 Hmm.
28:21 Chris Ryan? It might not have been a concerted effort, or you may have been projecting a lot of stress at that moment.
28:26 Speaker 06 That would be, that would be shocking. That doesn't seem likely.
28:30 Chris Ryan? But you're here now.
28:31 Speaker 06 Can't imagine it was that.
28:32 Speaker 01 It doesn't sound like now.
28:33 Speaker 06 Can't imagine it was that.
28:34 Chris Ryan? Well, I'm gonna lay out for you here. What, like, tell me about your...
28:38 Speaker 06 This relationship to Shoresy?
28:39 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
28:40 Speaker 06 Learned about it from you guys. So that's nice, because I cherish things that I get to share with you, even if you don't feel the same way.
28:47 Chris Ryan? Don't start crying yet.
28:47 Speaker 06 I will cry today, as I cry during every season of Shoresy.
28:50 Speaker 01 Oh, same.
28:51 Speaker 06 Couple moments this season hit me so hard, I was sobbing like a baby.
28:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:55 Speaker 06 Um, I love this show. It took me, as I think it takes some people, maybe like two, it's, you know, each, uh, season is six episodes, they're somewhere between 18 to like 27 minutes. And it took me probably like three episodes into the first season to get acclimated, right? To the tone, to the pace, to the nature of the dialogue, to the fact that every like fourth or fifth line is a repeated line of dialogue or an in-joke. The rhythm and language of the show. Once I had a feel for that, I thought I was experiencing the most magical...
29:25 Speaker 06 I love sports, right? So it's a great sports story. It is a story about community. It is, for the young characters and the old characters alike, eternally a coming of age story and a story about identity and sense of self. And I think it is a beautiful friendship and relationship story.
29:39 Speaker 01 And found family story in that regard.
29:41 Speaker 06 Yes, and so the ability, right, the micro and macro community. The community of the team, a line inside of the team, and then Sudbury at large. Also then like one of the genius strokes in this season. Well, okay, you had something like the, um, the haunt, right? The US team in prior seasons is a real, like, real thorn in the side rival. And now it's like, well, we gotta bring, sure.
30:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, love him.
30:05 Speaker 06 Palmer Delaney back.
30:06 Chris Ryan? This is a real...
30:07 Speaker 06 This team off.
30:07 Chris Ryan? Yeah, echoes.
30:08 Speaker 06 They never cease to surprise us, and it's always so hilariously sidesplittingly funny, and I think so tender and moving. And often like profound.
30:18 Speaker 01 In a way that I am consistently shocked, you know? Because Letter Kenny is wonderful, and has so much of all of the components that you're talking about, with the possible exception that it doesn't have nearly the heart that Shoresy has.
30:34 Speaker 06 I've not seen Letter Kenny.
30:35 Speaker 01 Letter Kenny is phenomenal, and is truly one of the funniest shows... Those out there, in my opinion, was just pound for pound, a joke machine. And Shoresy, though, has so much of that stuff and so many repeated jokes, exactly what you're talking about. Building out the community, that's a big thing in Letter Kenny. But Shoresy has this forward moving plot. Letter Kenny is week to week, you can watch it out of order, it wouldn't matter, none of it's cumulative.
31:02 Chris Ryan? Right.
31:02 Speaker 01 Shoresy is a narrative story that has at its root, an absolute heartbreaking story every season.
31:09 Chris Ryan? Yes.
31:10 Speaker 01 Every season, there's something that's going on that will break your heart. Positively, negatively, everybody is emotionally invested. In a way that you are like, how, um, how do I have such access to these hockey players' emotions? And then I think it's really like, not to like, jump straight to the end of this whole season. But Nat's lecture to the church women about why the hockey pla- why they're wrong about hockey players. Yeah. And the culture.
31:40 Chris Ryan? Sure.
31:40 Speaker 01 Is incredible and was one of the times that I cried during the show.
31:44 Chris Ryan? So I would say like, for folks who are still listening, even after we've gotten into this conversation and are still like, looking for a reason to watch. You could watch Five and not know, you know, you could start on Five. And I've been kind of egging Andy on to watch the first episode of Five. Because in many ways, I think the first episode of Five is a perfect piece of television.
32:06 Speaker 01 Great.
32:06 Chris Ryan? And is the, if I had to tell somebody, like, what does Shoresy do well? I'd be like, watch these three acts of television and tell me another show that's able to do the three things that this one does in one place. That being said, that episode and so many of those scenes hit so much harder. If you know that Nat has basically been doing that same speech since season one.
32:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:29 Chris Ryan? Since she has been like, making the same kind of appeal to the larger community about the importance that sports plays in keeping a sense of like, you know, continuity and togetherness in a place alive. And that's the thing, it's like, we talk about it as a comedy, as a drama, as a sports show. I think it's also like, when I was watching it this last season, I was like, this is a show about utopia. Because these guys are always like.
32:56 Chris Ryan? Nobody has like a hard life in this show, like hard, hard. Like they are at strip clubs and hanging out at bars and getting chicken tendies.
33:04 Speaker 01 The fact that this season was so heavily focused on that Sudbury has, the strip club has reopened.
33:11 Chris Ryan? Yes.
33:11 Speaker 01 Finally, because there has never been a strip club in a previous season, I don't think.
33:16 Chris Ryan? I, I.
33:17 Speaker 01 Or if it does, it's very fleeting and I don't.
33:19 Chris Ryan? They have lots of nightclubs, it seems like, but not necessarily a strip club.
33:22 Speaker 01 This strip club is so foregrounded and its importance is so, it, it, it is so hilarious. And, and how often they are inside of and telling very sweet and having very emotional moments inside the strip club is really very funny and great.
33:38 Chris Ryan? And I've had like experiences like that.
33:40 Speaker 01 At a strip club?
33:41 Chris Ryan? No, not, no, I just mean in a town like.
33:43 Speaker 01 How much Scores funny money do you have in your wallet right now?
33:46 Chris Ryan? Do you know what Scores? Scores was like pretty big when I was in New York, like it was like.
33:52 Speaker 01 Same, that's why, that's my strip club reference.
33:54 Chris Ryan? I never went to Scores.
33:56 Speaker 01 I don't think it exists anymore. I definitely did.
33:59 Chris Ryan? They went to like an Atlantic City place and they played Joel Santana and I was like, this is pretty awesome.
34:04 Speaker 06 Yeah. Were you there with Delaney or?
34:06 Chris Ryan? No, it was a bachelor party.
34:07 Speaker 01 Getting lappies.
34:08 Speaker 06 Getting lappies.
34:08 Speaker 01 Getting lappies with Delaney.
34:10 Speaker 06 Love the lappy, loves cocaine.
34:12 Chris Ryan? Anyway, I had, I had a point, but anyway, it's a, a depiction of utopia.
34:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:18 Speaker 06 I think everything you said was so beautiful just now. I would like you to say it all again, but on this table posed like Hitch, uh, forward.
34:26 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
34:27 Speaker 06 With a blanket around you and a laptop in front of you.
34:29 Speaker 01 It's, you're so right because it is, inside of that first episode is everything.
34:34 Speaker 06 That's great about the show.
34:35 Speaker 01 Every piece of what makes, it is in microcosm, the show.
34:41 Chris Ryan? This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It can be hard to do your own thing when everyone else is following everyone else, but that's what some of the best films are about. An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast. From us, from VW, from the other outcasts out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day and don't be afraid to veer off course every now and then, because if you don't do it now, then when? Learn more at VW.com.
35:11 Chris Ryan? From now on spoilers for season five and spoilers pretty much for the entirety of Shorez because we'll probably reference things.
35:17 Speaker 06 Yeah.
35:18 Chris Ryan? This first season opens up with, and I don't really have a roadmap for how I want to talk about this, I thought we could just enjoy ourselves. The first episode of this season five opens with a group of these guys who I guess are living together.
35:30 Speaker 06 They are.
35:30 Chris Ryan? I didn't really process that in previous seasons.
35:33 Speaker 06 They have always been living together.
35:33 Chris Ryan? But they are all living in a...
35:35 Speaker 06 Shoresy and Big Sexies apartment.
35:37 Chris Ryan? Apartment.
35:38 Speaker 06 Yeah.
35:38 Chris Ryan? And are all simultaneously masturbating.
35:41 Speaker 06 Whacking it.
35:42 Chris Ryan? Shoresy comes home and is like, "Do you guys want to go get beers?"
35:45 Speaker 06 Yep.
35:45 Chris Ryan? And everybody is not in, everybody's in their rooms.
35:47 Speaker 06 Yes.
35:48 Chris Ryan? And as he goes into each one of their rooms without knocking, each one of them is masturbating.
35:53 Speaker 06 In their own unique way.
35:54 Chris Ryan? In their own unique way.
35:55 Speaker 06 Yes.
35:56 Chris Ryan? What did this, what kind of insight did this give you into the male mindset?
36:01 Chris Ryan? That we're all poets, right? That we're all individual artists.
36:04 Speaker 06 I thought this was possibly the best scene in television history.
36:08 Speaker 01 It's so funny and it's like so true.
36:12 Speaker 06 Okay, which part struck you as most true?
36:14 Speaker 01 I think it's...
36:15 Speaker 06 Who did you each relate to the most? Hitchcock?
36:17 Speaker 01 Not that it's...
36:17 Speaker 06 On all fours.
36:18 Speaker 01 I think it is so true that guys...
36:21 Speaker 06 Goodie, like my buddy plugged the laptop in.
36:24 Chris Ryan? He's trying to give you game right here. Let him, let him cook.
36:27 Speaker 01 Guys are up to stuff that they think is what everybody else is doing.
36:31 Speaker 06 Okay.
36:32 Speaker 01 There, I think guys are doing stuff, guys figure stuff out as kids.
36:36 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
36:37 Speaker 01 That they just maintain and think this is what everybody has figured out.
36:42 Speaker 06 Okay.
36:42 Speaker 01 This is how everybody does this.
36:44 Chris Ryan? Right.
36:44 Speaker 01 And only when confronted with somebody interrupting and be like...
36:48 Speaker 06 Sure.
36:49 Speaker 01 What, like, when Shoresy walks in on Hitch and is like, "What are you doing?"
36:53 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
36:53 Speaker 01 And Hitch is on all fours with a, like, with a blanket over him, like, he's like snufflephagus or something. I was like, "What's happening?" It was perfect. And the, just the absolute ease, "What do you think I'm doing?"
37:08 Chris Ryan? And which one of them is watching?
37:09 Speaker 06 Tryon Hall's.
37:10 Chris Ryan? Hitch.
37:10 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
37:11 Speaker 06 Because he has the whole speech about how you can't watch porn because then you can't...
37:14 Chris Ryan? Do it really.
37:15 Speaker 06 Actually have sex. And then Dolo is in the shower, also jerking off, and Shoresy is like, "Do you have a laptop?" And then he's like, "Spink bank!"
37:22 Chris Ryan? Yes.
37:23 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, yeah.
37:24 Chris Ryan? So Dolo's going off memory.
37:25 Speaker 06 Great stuff.
37:26 Chris Ryan? Hitch is masturbating to
37:28 Speaker 06 Watching for try on halls.
37:28 Chris Ryan? Shopping mall try on halls.
37:30 Speaker 01 But also, it took me a number, I had to, I have closed captioning on it all the time. But it took me a while to figure out, he was saying, "try on halls."
37:39 Speaker 06 I thought it was house at first, try on house.
37:41 Speaker 01 Cause Hitch's accent is so nuts.
37:43 Chris Ryan? Yes.
37:44 Speaker 01 Oh, boy. And so it's even funnier because you're like, so that when I realized he was saying, "try on halls," I was like, "this is incredible."
37:51 Speaker 06 It's the best.
37:52 Chris Ryan? So the guys go out and get beers after this is settled.
37:54 Speaker 06 We get beers?
37:55 Chris Ryan? It's like an eight minute scene that is, like, to your point, about like, the repetitive nature of the jokes and the jokes building. And then they'll deflate for a second, really like, "you're doing this again," and then it'll be like,
38:07 Speaker 06 Meta, so you build, you climax, and then you deflate.
38:10 Chris Ryan? But I always think about the-
38:11 Speaker 01 The refractory period for the jokes can be minutes and sometimes episodes long.
38:15 Chris Ryan? Will Ferrell falling through the floor and Austin Powers. And that joke goes on for so long that it gets so much more funny once it gets back.
38:23 Speaker 01 It's the Mr. Show Thimble sketch.
38:24 Chris Ryan? Yes.
38:25 Speaker 01 Yes.
38:25 Chris Ryan? They then are, like, "let's go get beers," they go out and get beers and get a ride from one of the MILFs that I believe they slept with last season.
38:33 Speaker 06 No, Jill has wanted to sleep with Shoresy. Jill has wanted, the Charlize Theron lookalike, the doppelganger Jill, who has been like, you know, "Shoresy, you should teach the youth," and, "Shoresy, if you just come in the back," and then he's like, "I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna go to Laura." So she's been trying to hook up with Shoresy, including in this episode, where she's like, "I'm just deciding, like, I'm trying to figure out if I'm gonna go home alone."
38:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, turn the heat on, or am I gonna have someone there to keep me warm?
38:56 Speaker 06 And then, of course, building toward the threesome plot, which was a stroke of absolute genius.
39:00 Speaker 01 Incredible, incredible.
39:01 Chris Ryan? Uh, they go to one of the kids from the previous seasons.
39:05 Speaker 06 Jack.
39:05 Chris Ryan? Jack is in a youth hockey, a national youth hockey team now, where is he playing? Like, I don't know, 90 minutes away, somewhere. And they go and you're like, "this is great, this is so funny, these guys are drinking beers, these guys are hanging out." Now it's gonna be Shoresy and his boys at a youth hockey game, this is gonna be hilarious.
39:20 Speaker 01 And it's really sweet because they're going to support one of the kids we met last season.
39:25 Chris Ryan? Yes.
39:25 Speaker 01 Which is-
39:26 Speaker 06 A Blue Bear buddy. A Blue Bear buddy.
39:27 Chris Ryan? And they're told in the car that this kid has been having a little bit of trouble, but they don't, I don't really get into it.
39:32 Speaker 06 Right, he's not scoring goals, and he's a goal scorer.
39:34 Chris Ryan? Shoresy and the guys show up, they're in the hallway, they- Talk to the kids coach for a second. They know who he is. There's some debate about like the right way to play hockey, et cetera. And then Jack comes out from the locker room to see Shoresy. And you're like, this is cool. This is whatever. And they all are like, Jack, Jack, Jack. And he gets pulled away by Shoresy. And as you can see, as he's walking down the hall, Jack's crying. And he's just like-
39:56 Speaker 01 He's uncontrollably overwhelmed emotionally and starts to cry.
40:01 Chris Ryan? And in almost any other iteration of a television show like this, Shoresy turns that into a joke. And it becomes like a huge like, I don't get you young kids and how you have emotions and like your Gen Z millennial wokeness or whatever. And instead Shoresy's just like, let it out.
40:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:19 Speaker 06 Puts his arm around them.
40:19 Chris Ryan? He's like, you already started, so let's finish it. Like, get it out.
40:22 Speaker 01 And he's covering for him.
40:24 Chris Ryan? And he makes sure he can't see and nobody can see.
40:26 Speaker 01 Nobody can see it.
40:27 Chris Ryan? And he's just like, what's the problem? And he's like, you know, I want to go home. And he's like, none of your friends are at home. What the fuck do you want to go home for? And they have this long conversation. And it is so beautiful and so amazingly well done. And you know, you just, Kiso is like, obviously a polymath talent. Like, I have no doubt that he can do all this different stuff. But jeez, and I didn't expect like, to get hit that hard in minute 11.
40:51 Speaker 01 Ability, this shows ability, his ability specifically, and it happens in Letter Kenny, just not as frequently. To turn from something that is just outright absurdly hilarious of like, looking at each of the guys jerking off, comparing jerk off. Come over here and look at him jerk off. You gotta see what this guy's up to. Building, building, building, heightening this joke. And then cutting directly from that into this incredibly emotionally available and sweet moment between him and Jack that then is the spine of the rest of the show. You know, like, Jack coming back after each quarter and Shoresy basically outlining,
41:36 Speaker 01 this is what you're gonna do. First things first, you're gonna, and then
41:39 Speaker 06 Yes.
41:39 Speaker 01 In, in, once again, in microcosm, he sets up how Jack is going to get himself out of his head.
41:46 Chris Ryan? Sure.
41:46 Speaker 01 Into the ice and into the game. And that is exactly what happens for the rest of the season for them.
41:51 Speaker 06 And this was the first thing you texted me about the season was, did you, like, how much did you cry when he put his, and I was so touched and so moved because it's the perfect shortcut to unlocking everything about the show and the characters. This is like, kind of the case for why you shouldn't just start with season five, or you should just start at the beginning because it is like two year old, that he could have like mocked them and ribbed them. That is where we started with the blueberry buddies, with the helicoptering and the toxic mess.
42:19 Chris Ryan? Also, he's the guy who's like reffing youth hockey games and just talking about those mothers for like the entire time.
42:24 Speaker 01 That's how Shoresy started, was just as an antagonist to the young people in Letterkings.
42:29 Speaker 06 Right, the Cory and Liam, exactly. And so you have, you have that as like the backdrop.
42:37 Speaker 06 The building from that, and like toward the end of last season, we moved into this really like emotionally resonant place with the karaoke and with Jack's Pursuit of Maria and how that mapped onto Shoresy's relationship with Laura and the reading of the notes. I remember you guys talking about on the pod, how hard that hit you. But it's not just inside of their relationship and how that tells us that Shoresy, who we've seen cry in every episode of the show, probably. He's always a free crier, even when he's a dick. We're on the part two journey of the show, which is about him being a leader and a coach. So you have to actually believe that he could unite all of these people under his direction and that they would say, and the number of people we heard, you should coach. And he had to decide, like, this is where I want to put my love.
43:20 Speaker 06 And then you see what that means to him and why he's good at it so authentically. It was beautiful.
43:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, I thought it was incredible, and there is. You watch him have to, at the end of the last season, he is forced to, and you watch him have to give up playing and all that that means to him. And this season, I think what, one of the things we learn is his reluctance to coach, or what's a little bit holding him back is that for him, that's his brother. And so new character for this season is Mo, who is Shoresy's brother.
43:56 Speaker 01 Big Brother and that was those moments give you such insight into Shoresy. When you realize like how much he's like, that's one of the moments that I cried is like when when he shores is going around and saying, who are you? Who are you?
44:09 Speaker 06 Oh, my gosh.
44:09 Speaker 01 In the locker room to everybody, who are you? And everybody's defining themselves.
44:13 Speaker 06 Yeah.
44:13 Speaker 01 This is who I am. This is who I am. And they said, he says, who? And he says, I'm Shoresy's big brother. And I was like, yeah.
44:20 Speaker 01 Uh oh, you know, like, so it's like, that to me also was like, oh, put Shoresy inside of a family dynamic that I didn't really know.
44:29 Speaker 06 I think that's another great example of how the show has always had a lot of heart, but the emotional heft has expanded. Because earlier insights, which were very brief in prior seasons into Shoresy's history is like, he was adopted. And what did that mean? Like, yeah, learning that he was called like waffle as a kid and stuff like that. It was all like, it was joke based and there's still a lot of humor here. But this is the first time that we've understood that he can't like, talk about what his brother meant to him without breaking that.
44:55 Chris Ryan? Yeah, I thought that that was like, it's easier for him to coach a kid through their emotions than it is for him to deal with his own. You know, I know that that kind of comes up again in the second episode. And I'll just finish the first episode dissection. We're not going to go through every episode at this level of detail. I mean, we could if we wanted to, but.
45:10 Speaker 01 Every episode.
45:12 Chris Ryan? Uh, I just thought that the third act of this episode, which is essentially like, he's kind of talked Jack into going back out and playing. And this show does hockey really well and they do, they photograph sports really well. And I think that it's the most legible kind of like execution of of a game on TV right now when you're watching it.
45:32 Speaker 06 Yeah.
45:32 Chris Ryan? But what they choose to do is Shoresy, every period of a game that Jack is playing.
45:39 Speaker 06 Yeah.
45:40 Chris Ryan? Gives Jack an a lesson, an idea to follow, like first.
45:43 Speaker 01 Like a simple goal.
45:44 Chris Ryan? So if you can't, if you feel like you're not having a good time and your game isn't, is not firing, what you gotta do is you gotta fucking kill some guys.
45:51 Speaker 06 Yes.
45:52 Chris Ryan? So the first bell goes and he comes back and he's like, yeah, you killed some guys. And now what are you gonna do? You're gonna score a goal. And he goes out and he scores a goal. And then he's like, what are you gonna do in the third period? You're gonna make sure they always remember who you are. Never let them forget who you are. And. The fact that they do that in those like three mini scenes within one scene without ever showing Jack playing, without ever showing Shoresy going back to the crowd, it's just like they meet up in the hallway behind the ice, then they go their separate ways and they do it three times is their joke style applied to drama.
46:25 Speaker 01 Yes.
46:25 Chris Ryan? Which is awesome.
46:26 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah. I mean, and it's so rewarding because that stuff, all of those component pieces then become the structure for them versus the EU teams.
46:38 Speaker 06 Yes, exactly.
46:39 Speaker 01 You know, and you hear when Jack and the rest of the blueberry buddies are on the sidelines
46:44 Speaker 06 Mason, Carter and Caleb.
46:47 Speaker 01 When they're all there watching the game, you know, Jack repeats almost like a mantra. Jack has has internalized Shoresy's teaching, which Shoresy has now told us was his brother's teaching, that his brother had a way of simplifying things for him. So that it's not, Shoresy is good at this. It is, um, Mo is good at this and Shoresy is just telling us Mo, there's an episode of, I don't think either of you watch it, but there's an incredible episode of Free Run Beyond Journeys.
47:19 Speaker 06 I'm about to start this.
47:20 Speaker 01 It's the greatest show on TV, full stop.
47:24 Speaker 06 Wow.
47:25 Speaker 01 It is, you are going to-
47:26 Chris Ryan? Free Run's like Kill Some Guys?
47:28 Speaker 01 Kill Some Guys. Well, no, there's this incredible episode where-
47:32 Speaker 06 Names of Beers, yeah.
47:34 Speaker 01 Get some puffers. They go, uh, Free Run travels with two other people, two young people. She's like an immortal elf and she travels with two humans and they're kind of of the same age and they have like a kind of will they, won't they dynamic.
47:50 Chris Ryan? Classic elf stuff.
47:52 Speaker 01 Fern and, and Stark. And they are gonna go on a date and Stark asks Free Run, what, where should I take Fern on this date? And Free Run walks him to a marketplace, you should take her to look at this, you should take her to look at that, this and that. And at the end of this whole sequence, he says, wow, you really know Fern well. And she's like, I don't. These are all the things that Hyter, the, her father figure, told me about Fern.
48:22 Chris Ryan? Oh, I love that.
48:23 Speaker 01 And it's this wonderful moment where you realize Freeyrin is, is, is an incredible maternal figure to these young people. But that for her, it takes, she has such trouble learning about people, really? That she's in, she's taken what Hyter told her and has just expanded on it. And it's this beautiful moment in what is unquestionably the most beautiful show visually and.
48:48 Chris Ryan? What channel is this on?
48:49 Speaker 01 It's on, oh, uh, it's on, I'm watching it on Crunchyroll.
48:53 Speaker 06 Yeah, it's, they have it on Netflix.
48:54 Speaker 01 The first season's on Netflix at least. Um, it's all over the place.
48:59 Chris Ryan? Did you like how I asked you what channel?
49:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, 56. It's on channel 56. Just tune it in.
49:05 Chris Ryan? It's like.
49:05 Speaker 01 You've got rabbit ears.
49:07 Speaker 06 Yeah, just move the antenna.
49:08 Chris Ryan? Uh, okay.
49:09 Speaker 06 That opening sequence also, more so, that's kind of the, the emotional core, but like we get little things set up that are really crucial, like the dive. You know, oh, you can't hit anybody because other players are gonna take a dive and you don't want to hurt your team because you get a penalty. So this setup for the big speech we're gonna hear Shoresy make at Bro Dude in the second episode and then the backdrop of what we hear from Teppo. The EU goes iconic, iconic villain character.
49:32 Speaker 01 Wild character.
49:33 Speaker 06 Just incredible stuff, but also there's the conversation with Cunningham, the coach of that team, who is like, as we learn, a three-time coach of the year. So sort of the poster boy for what a coach should be.
49:43 Chris Ryan? And he's more new school, is like wearing a cool suit.
49:45 Speaker 06 Right, exactly. But he's also like talking about the kids, like you gotta treat them like dogs.
49:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:49 Speaker 06 That's not how Shoresy is focusing on this at all. And that discussion they have about would the, how would you rather win or lose honorably or dishonorably? Which ends up being this thing that almost like Shoresy has absorbed via osmosis. And it is this thing that comes back at the finale in this big where he, where he's like, I had an epiphany. Like I have clarity about what matters to me.
50:11 Speaker 01 Well, what's so clear is that, and has always been clear, is that Shoresy plays dirty. You know, and that proudly plays dirty.
50:19 Chris Ryan? Well, the episode almost begins with like this dream that he's having of just destroying an entire team of guys by like, uh. Hitting him in the ankles with his hockey stick.
50:28 Speaker 01 Just slashing. He's just like a absolute beast on the ice.
50:32 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
50:33 Speaker 01 And so this idea of like honor is introduced this season, which is like incredible. And for him to try and figure out like how to, is it to lose honorably or to win dishonorably is a great.
50:46 Speaker 06 Yeah.
50:47 Chris Ryan? I thought that this was a season that was almost way more about like an idea than it was about a story. Like the story is good. It's somewhat reminiscent of earlier seasons. It's about a traveling EU all-star team, European Union all-star team, which is, you know, kind of funny. Like in the world, kind of.
51:05 Speaker 06 Yeah.
51:06 Chris Ryan? Political chessboard. It's funny to watch like the evil EU coming. And you're like, I could think of some other guys who are evil. And then the sort of vanishing identity of Canadian and North American hockey culture and how it needs to be reestablished in order to fend their turf. Cause these EU, this EU team is just burning down the fucking building everywhere they go.
51:28 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think this is exactly what you're saying about. It's more about an idea and almost something not even philosophical, but like existential, soul deep, right? Because this I loved structurally, and I think the way that the show adapts season over season, real continuity, but slight tweaks that make it feel much bigger and broader and wider and more sweeping. Like we're going wider and deeper at the same time. Think about where we were previously in the show's run. The idea of this team, the Sudbury Blueberry Bulldogs folding inside of the existing no-show was the crisis. And now, Shoresy walks in and Nat's like, the no-show is folded. It's just gone. So we think this season is going to be about watching him coach the Bulldogs. They're, the team doesn't exist because the league doesn't exist.
52:09 Chris Ryan? And it's kind of cool because like for as much as I'm like, oh, it's this utopia and like, these guys don't have financial problems and they just sort of jerk off and go get beers and stuff like that.
52:17 Speaker 06 Needs must.
52:18 Chris Ryan? It's fascinating when the outside world.
52:22 Chris Ryan? Shows like how they feel about this scenario because like there's a basketball team that basically moves into the arena overnight and immediately like redoes the locker room.
52:33 Speaker 06 Looks great.
52:34 Chris Ryan? They do that.
52:35 Speaker 01 And not only that, but they seem to be successful.
52:38 Chris Ryan? Yes.
52:39 Speaker 01 What we're being told in the story of the show is that senior whale shit hockey is unsustainable. And so all these teams in their greater league have folded, except for the Bulldogs and like one other team, I can't remember. And so there is no longer, there's not enough interest. They don't, it's too expensive to have the ice up, so they lose their ice time. All of these things that befall them, to then put them on a stage which is, oh, you're playing worldwide players. It's not even like another team from, you know, Quebec. You're playing like EU professional players, but then to take it out of their thing.
53:21 Speaker 01 My favorite move of this whole season was to put the game outside.
53:25 Chris Ryan? Yes.
53:26 Speaker 06 Chills.
53:27 Speaker 01 Made me, I was like, this is incredible.
53:30 Chris Ryan? Yeah. When you first see the, and you see the boards of the outdoor.
53:33 Speaker 06 Covered in blood.
53:34 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
53:36 Speaker 06 From the psycho church league.
53:37 Chris Ryan? But that's another example of like, you know, the women from the church who host the final match. And their take on hockey and hockey players is like, you can never trust them. This always happens. Like when we had the beer league, church league.
53:51 Speaker 01 Those guys play like psychos.
53:52 Chris Ryan? They were psychos and you would have to have the cops here every time. And it's sort of a little bit more about like how hockey is being viewed by the modern Canadian person and the, you know, like in a changing world.
54:03 Speaker 01 Well, and that's what the whole dynamic, the comparison between the EU and the North American play is that the Europeans played a much more graceful game. Like Shoresy's monologue on Bro Dude. Boy, I mean like better monologues of the year. Shoresy on Bro Dude talking about North American hockey versus Canadian hockey or Billy Bob Thornton in Landman talking about The View.
54:34 Speaker 06 I mean.
54:36 Chris Ryan? It's really hard to call it.
54:37 Speaker 06 Yeah. Talking about sticking his dick in an omelet. That was also memorable.
54:41 Speaker 01 There you go.
54:41 Chris Ryan? You know, and now we, if we do get a, like, well, I guess that wouldn't work because Hulu does Shoresy. But if Shoresy were somehow brought into the Paramount universe.
54:50 Speaker 01 Wouldn't that be amazing?
54:51 Speaker 06 But we could put Angela in Game of Thrones.
54:53 Chris Ryan? Well, why can't, why can't Ainsley become the Bulldogs' physical therapist?
54:59 Speaker 01 I love this. Yeah, absolutely.
55:01 Speaker 06 I would watch.
55:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:02 Speaker 06 I would watch.
55:04 Speaker 01 But there is, like, there's a way in which, so there, there's this whole thing, but that, that, that he's talking about, the North American style of play is dying.
55:12 Speaker 06 Right.
55:12 Speaker 01 It's dead.
55:13 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
55:13 Speaker 01 And, and the EU's coming over here and they're beating us at our own game, basically. And there is like no sense of pride. And that's what it's all about. And I want to be clear, this is my camera.
55:24 Speaker 06 Yeah.
55:25 Speaker 01 I don't like sports. Now, I know that I'm not allowed to say that here on a ringer show.
55:35 Chris Ryan? But it seems like you really wanted to get that off your chest and do it direct to camera.
55:38 Speaker 01 I don't follow sports. I'm not, I don't, I'm not a sporto. But I am obsessed with this.
55:44 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
55:44 Speaker 01 You know, like, I love this show. And, and so like, I, I'm saying that for the people who are like, I've heard about this show, but I don't, I don't like hockey. I don't like sports. I'm, that's not for me. I could very easily see people thinking it's not for them, but it is very much for you.
56:00 Chris Ryan? Many things, many sports TV shows or movies that I think would deeply satisfy people who have no interest in the sport.
56:08 Speaker 06 And who care more about it.
56:09 Speaker 01 I think the only one that I would say that fits the bill is Friday Night Lights.
56:16 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
56:17 Speaker 01 I think works for everybody.
56:18 Chris Ryan? Yes.
56:18 Speaker 01 You know?
56:19 Speaker 06 For many of the same reasons.
56:20 Chris Ryan? Even football fans, like, will be like, but the football in Friday Night Lights is like, preposterous.
56:25 Speaker 06 I've got some notes on Schem.
56:26 Chris Ryan? Yeah. Or the preponderance of Hail Marys that Sarah's in.
56:29 Speaker 06 For sure. No question.
56:30 Chris Ryan? Um, okay, so we have the EU plotline that goes through the second season. We could talk about Teppo Maki.
56:36 Speaker 06 What a character, what a figure.
56:38 Speaker 01 Great character.
56:38 Speaker 06 They're overrated.
56:40 Chris Ryan? Shoresy basically puts together a team of the no-show All-Stars.
56:43 Speaker 06 Yes, it's an enemies to lovers story. They used to be the rivals and they are united in a common goal, which is the restoration of that pride and identity. That's why the outdoor rink is so perfect. It's like the child, the reason that you loved, that you fell in love with the thing in the first place. Like that core germ of it and your relationship to it, like do it there.
57:01 Speaker 01 And it felt so, it feels so much more local and real and street level to be like, we're at this outdoor rink. Everybody's in, everybody looks cold. Everything looks like it's brutal.
57:13 Speaker 06 They're shoveling up the blood slushies.
57:16 Chris Ryan? It's so good, but the montage essentially, and there's maybe a montage or two, too many this season, but like the montage of them putting together the no show All Stars.
57:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
57:29 Chris Ryan? And the fucking Freezer Twins on Zoom.
57:32 Speaker 06 Killed me.
57:32 Chris Ryan? Was so funny, like the Freezer Twins bit. I don't know what the limit is of like how long I could watch a Freezer Twins scene.
57:41 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
57:42 Chris Ryan? But it might be like two hours.
57:44 Speaker 01 Well, I loved that one of them is just absent for part of like a whole scene. He's just taking a piss.
57:49 Speaker 06 He had to pee.
57:50 Speaker 01 I, I mean, like, it's like, and that's the thing, the show is so good.
57:54 Chris Ryan? I got my cousin's wedding in July.
57:57 Speaker 06 July. And I'm like, don't worry, it's gonna be sooner. And he's like, how soon Survivor's about to start? Like, he thinks it might be tonight?
58:05 Speaker 01 The Freezer Twins, and then later when they're talking to Mercedes is like, I fucked the fridge twins.
58:11 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
58:13 Speaker 01 She thinks they're called the fridge boys or whatever.
58:16 Speaker 06 Poor Michael, he's like, I was wondering why they were here.
58:19 Chris Ryan? Uh, so we get the Freezer Twins, we get Shur, uh, we get, uh, the Italian guy, Sylvester.
58:25 Speaker 01 Sly Sylvester, who the, the repetition of put a hockey stick in my hand and I become a totally different person. And that, that at least four different people say that exact same line.
58:36 Speaker 06 Absolutely.
58:37 Speaker 01 In regards to just stuff.
58:39 Chris Ryan? I believe Sylvester is the guy from the 98 Get Bedards fucking number off your back.
58:43 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah.
58:44 Chris Ryan? That guy. And then my favorite of of all of them is Delaney. Who is the coke head stripper addict that is also like a dynamite goal scorer. And needs to go through basically a trial of the seven to get himself back on the team. After he shows up late one time, right? Like or oh, he's just getting he's just getting lappies.
59:07 Speaker 01 He's just they think he's not but he's not.
59:10 Speaker 06 He's on the strip club side instead of the mixer.
59:13 Chris Ryan? Building and Delaney's getting lappies. He's like, these lappies are incredible.
59:17 Speaker 06 Shows up later with the two strippers because you hadn't been able to pay. So it's bring them to the locker room, then the phone is ringing. It's so good.
59:26 Speaker 01 So good. It's so good because it really is. Again, it's so easy to, I think, get access to a young person's sports story, you know, like young people and what it means to be striving for this thing. It's such a magic trick to make you care about guys in their 40s and 50s and their attempts. To win a sports game that means so clearly so much to them. But that you understand contextually like is preposterous in the life of people this age, you know?
59:57 Speaker 06 I love when they're talking about, because Sherzi is learning, the tracksuit, also a grave recurring bit and the slight changes.
1:00:06 Speaker 01 This is very winkle.
1:00:07 Speaker 06 You know, are we going to be able to get these guys to unite toward this comical and do this thing? And he's like, they'd walk. And then you see immediately that for every single one of them, that's true. They're quitting their job. Shura is under a sink doing a plumbing repair, like Sly is at the yeah. Palmer's shopping wood, Sly is at the restaurant. They're just like, I need to know literally nothing. Other than that this is happening and I need to be a part of it. Gorgeous Gord. Also there, the gyms are back. Possibly my favorite subtle-
1:00:36 Chris Ryan? Jims are prison guards?
1:00:37 Speaker 06 Yes. My favorite subtle return joke to something from a prior season was Good, after Sly says something he's not supposed to and Shoresy's trying to figure out who in the locker room said it.
1:00:50 Speaker 06 One of the Jims reveals that it was Sly and then Goody's like, "Jims are tattlers."
1:00:55 Chris Ryan? Jims are tattlers?
1:00:56 Speaker 06 They are!
1:00:56 Chris Ryan? They've done that before.
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1:02:57 Speaker 06 Who's your favorite character? Like, do you guys have a power ranking? Who do you... I mean, obviously, this show doesn't function without Shorzy, but like...
1:03:04 Speaker 01 But from everybody else...
1:03:05 Speaker 06 Everybody else.
1:03:06 Speaker 01 So like, I have like a real profound love for Hitch.
1:03:10 Speaker 06 Me too.
1:03:10 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:03:11 Speaker 01 And one of the... And maybe the moment that I cried the most, or the hardest...
1:03:15 Speaker 06 No question.
1:03:15 Speaker 01 That got me the deepest was when Shorzy makes Hitch captain.
1:03:20 Speaker 06 I was a wreck.
1:03:21 Speaker 01 And Hitch starts to try to talk, but starts to cry, and they all jump on him. Immediately jump on him and hug him. And I was like, like, moved by that moment because there is...
1:03:32 Speaker 06 Me too.
1:03:33 Speaker 01 An element of the show that is definitely about these men who are truly unable to understand their emotions.
1:03:43 Speaker 06 Yes.
1:03:43 Speaker 01 In almost every way. None of them have successful relationships, except for now, in these later two seasons, Shoresy, sort of, you know?
1:03:51 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah.
1:03:52 Speaker 01 Is getting there. This season especially, yes. But it took all of last trials and tribulations of last year for Shoresy to get to...
1:03:58 Speaker 06 Yes.
1:03:59 Speaker 01 A relationship, you know? And I feel like watching these men grapple with, like, just emotionality is moving.
1:04:08 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:04:08 Speaker 01 You know?
1:04:09 Speaker 06 Incredibly so.
1:04:09 Speaker 01 And sports allows them to exercise or exorcise those feelings.
1:04:14 Speaker 06 I love that. And then the payoff of when they're all going around the who are you? Another quiet genius touch, by the way, the whiteboard behind them. Everybody goes, which we saw at the end of the panel. I gotta chill.
1:04:24 Speaker 01 Loved it.
1:04:24 Speaker 06 It's like, you know, all the, all the episodes where we've seen the lineup red. I do miss Sanguinet, of course.
1:04:29 Speaker 01 I do too.
1:04:29 Speaker 06 But it's like, you're going, you're fucking going.
1:04:31 Chris Ryan? Is Sanger in fucking Hamnet? Where is Sanger? Like, how is Sanger...
1:04:34 Speaker 01 I wonder if he's on another show.
1:04:35 Chris Ryan? That's what I was curious about.
1:04:36 Speaker 01 I meant to look it up before this.
1:04:38 Chris Ryan? They keep referencing him and calling him and stuff.
1:04:40 Speaker 06 I like that we hear about him just... I mean, obviously, it's to answer, address the fact that he's not there, but it's like keeping him in the mix so he could come back.
1:04:46 Chris Ryan? Sure.
1:04:46 Speaker 06 But then when everyone's doing the who are you?
1:04:48 Chris Ryan? Like Jesse Bloom in industry or something, you know?
1:04:50 Speaker 06 I would like Jesse Bloom to return to industry. Hitch's answer is captain of the ship.
1:04:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:04:54 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:04:55 Speaker 06 It's the most important aspect of his identity, that honor.
1:04:59 Chris Ryan? I think my two favorite characters that are non-Shoresy department would probably be Zeke.
1:05:04 Speaker 01 Uh huh.
1:05:04 Speaker 06 Great.
1:05:05 Chris Ryan? Just because Zeke and Shoresy do the same thing every year, which is for five episodes, they say the worst possible things that you could think of to another person. And then there's like one incredible moment of tenderness in the last episode and you're just like, I'm fucking sold.
1:05:19 Speaker 06 The dancing this up this season.
1:05:21 Speaker 01 Really great.
1:05:22 Chris Ryan? And then.
1:05:22 Speaker 06 I, I, goodie.
1:05:23 Chris Ryan? Oh, I was gonna say Jory.
1:05:25 Speaker 01 Oh, Jory Jordan?
1:05:26 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:05:27 Speaker 06 I would, I would watch the sports report every day.
1:05:30 Speaker 01 I wish they would make like content that is just that.
1:05:33 Chris Ryan? If I could explain it to Bill in a way that he wouldn't just start walking away in the middle of the conversation, I would be like, Jory should be a podcast on the ring. And it's just like Jory interviewing.
1:05:43 Speaker 06 Wow.
1:05:44 Chris Ryan? Yeah. Like conconiple, you know?
1:05:48 Speaker 01 That's the kind of thing that I think, and I don't even know who or what that was, but like, I think, cause I was watching it this time and I was like, oh, it would be funny if they put out just material that was.
1:05:59 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:06:00 Speaker 01 Five minute.
1:06:01 Chris Ryan? Jory talking to Adam Bell. Adam Brody and Kristen Bell.
1:06:04 Speaker 01 Yeah. He's just a junket guy?
1:06:08 Speaker 06 Uh, really got a kick out of the vlogs into sucking hogs. That was a good one. Turn the phrase, I love goodie.
1:06:15 Chris Ryan? So what are some of the, what are some of the like kind of tertiary plot lines from the season that you found interesting? Like, there's a little bit of, uh, I'll throw some out. So there's the Shoresy's kind of burgeoning media career.
1:06:25 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:06:25 Chris Ryan? That is acting as spokesperson for the Canadian way of hockey, but also like, you know, Anik obviously wants him to be on Bro Dude. There's this weird, I wouldn't say weird, but there's like this Gretzky episode where it's like, a lot of it is like Shoresy's about to start crying because Gretzky and he are gonna do a TV episode together. And then it's just like a FaceTime call.
1:06:45 Speaker 06 Is there anyone you guys would say to, like, you could shut an elevator door on my nuts and it would be fine? As Shoresy said to Gretzky, anyone you feel that way about?
1:06:52 Speaker 01 And I love, and I, cause it's that.
1:06:53 Chris Ryan? Tom Hardy.
1:06:56 Speaker 01 If Tom Hardy was.
1:06:58 Speaker 06 I believe you.
1:06:59 Chris Ryan? Doing Bane.
1:07:00 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:07:00 Chris Ryan? And he wanted to shut my nuts.
1:07:02 Speaker 01 But somehow on Taboo Island.
1:07:04 Chris Ryan? Only one of your nuts can make it out of the elevator shaft.
1:07:08 Speaker 01 Oh, see, oh. Produce your nut.
1:07:11 Chris Ryan? You know?
1:07:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:07:14 Chris Ryan? I'd do it.
1:07:16 Speaker 01 I'd do it. Yeah, no, you told us you would. We believe you. We didn't put this on you. You brought this to the table, my guy.
1:07:24 Chris Ryan? What about you? Proverbial nuts.
1:07:27 Speaker 06 Proverbial, uh, boy.
1:07:31 Chris Ryan? And it can't be fictional. It has to be a real person.
1:07:33 Speaker 06 A real person.
1:07:33 Chris Ryan? Yeah, it can't be like, oh, Jon Snow, I love you.
1:07:36 Speaker 06 Yeah, I was gonna say Ghosts of the Dire Wolf.
1:07:38 Chris Ryan? No, no, it has to be a real person.
1:07:39 Speaker 06 Get him back in the mix. The only people I really care about are you guys.
1:07:43 Speaker 01 And we would never do that.
1:07:44 Speaker 06 Never? No?
1:07:45 Speaker 01 Um, I think it would be R I P Anthony Bourdain.
1:07:48 Chris Ryan? Oh, jeez, well, you got me there.
1:07:51 Speaker 01 I would absolutely let Bourdain, uh, close an elevator door on my nuts. Um, happily, happily so.
1:07:58 Chris Ryan? Thanks for coming on the watch.
1:08:01 Chris Ryan? Uh, so we have the Gretzky thing in episode two.
1:08:04 Speaker 06 Yes.
1:08:04 Speaker 01 What I loved about the Gretzky thing is it clearly is so meaningful to him. And I feel like the show is setting you up for this kind of like, it's a rug pull. Oh, at the very last minute, Gretzky's not coming. And, um, Annika and the producer are pissed.
1:08:23 Speaker 06 Yes.
1:08:23 Speaker 01 And, and they're, they're like really being nasty about Gretzky. It's a bullshit move. It's amateur for him to cancel. They're, they're pissed off. And Shoresy just goes into the most beautiful.
1:08:35 Chris Ryan? Yeah, he's like, can you believe he even thought about?
1:08:37 Speaker 01 That he was going to be here is the best moment of my life. That, that, and he, his monologue then is so good. And then not just that moment where he, yeah, I think, you know what I think? I think, you know, what is it? The mute of Gretzky win the game. He, he just starts going on all this stuff is how meaningful and important Gretzky is to him.
1:08:58 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:08:58 Speaker 01 Then he takes this tiny transactional moment that he has almost on TV with Gretzky. And then he gets to FaceTime with Gretzky for, I don't know, half a minute or something. You see him have a little bit of a chat with Gretzky. And then he dines out on that positively.
1:09:14 Chris Ryan? For the entire season.
1:09:14 Speaker 01 For the whole season. He uses it to whip up his guys.
1:09:18 Chris Ryan? He wants to have, he wants us to show him like.
1:09:21 Speaker 01 Gretzky said, are you guys gonna show, he's watching.
1:09:23 Chris Ryan? Give me something to watch this year.
1:09:24 Speaker 01 Are you guys gonna give me something to watch this year?
1:09:26 Speaker 06 And he also, that's when he says the thing about like, you know, the hockey, like the hockey community, we've got each other's backs, we stick up for each other. Did you think we were just saying that?
1:09:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:35 Speaker 06 I love that moment and that line and that idea. And it's basically, that's a trampoline that allows us to get the nat speech at the end about like hockey culture and that community.
1:09:44 Chris Ryan? It's worth noting, people listening to this probably already know this, but strangely enough, out of this TV show has emerged this burgeoning live event vertical of Shoresy, where they are essentially going around North America playing.
1:09:59 Speaker 06 Inspired.
1:09:59 Chris Ryan? Ex-NHL stars. We got a chance to go see them in LA.
1:10:04 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:10:05 Speaker 01 We went to a hockey game.
1:10:06 Chris Ryan? They're having the time of their fucking lives.
1:10:08 Speaker 06 It's wonderful.
1:10:08 Chris Ryan? First of all, there was definitely like 6 to 10,000 people there.
1:10:11 Speaker 06 They're a lot. They're a lot.
1:10:12 Chris Ryan? Entirely decked out in Shoresy stuff.
1:10:14 Speaker 01 So many people there. It was so funny to watch a hockey game where everybody there is there for Shoresy.
1:10:21 Speaker 06 Oh, no question.
1:10:21 Speaker 01 And they're playing the LA Kings.
1:10:24 Chris Ryan? Ex-stars.
1:10:25 Speaker 01 Alumni league. And I felt like it was really funny because the LA Kings were constantly being booed in their home house.
1:10:33 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:10:33 Speaker 01 Because everybody there was there for the Shoresy team, which was, must have been a very surreal experience.
1:10:38 Chris Ryan? And there was like an element of just like also watching those, these guys actually play hockey or just like, an American TV show does not let Matt Saracen play against the Denver Broncos.
1:10:49 Speaker 06 Yeah, like all of these guys have hockey experience.
1:10:51 Chris Ryan? Yeah, but not even, even if you do or don't, it's like the Shoresy taking a puck to the face would derail this television series.
1:10:58 Speaker 06 Right.
1:10:59 Chris Ryan? For a year. You know what I mean? Like, you can't.
1:11:01 Speaker 06 They would just write it into the plot, man.
1:11:02 Chris Ryan? Probably would.
1:11:03 Speaker 06 You know? Goodie misses another tooth, great.
1:11:06 Chris Ryan? I just bring it up because I think that as this show has gone on, it has started to take on this like second life or like another, outside of the show, it is now like. A kind of lifestyle thing that is pretty interesting and I almost felt like this season reflected that. That it was like, the sort of ideals of hockey can live beyond just hockey itself.
1:11:28 Speaker 01 Well, and what a cool way to like, build your audience, hopefully is not to just like, you know, like, a lot of people go out there, shows want you to go out there and like, promote somehow and do this or that. But like, for their, for the, for their promotion to just be an exhibition hockey game, which is the thing the show's about, not like the actors being like, here's how we make, let me tell you how we make the show. It is like, oh, how would you like to be inside the show? Do you want to be inside of a Shoresy games? Here we are.
1:12:00 Chris Ryan? The problem with the indoor, they didn't depose any leaders in real life, you know?
1:12:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:12:03 Speaker 06 Something to think about.
1:12:05 Chris Ryan? Yeah. What were some other secondary plotlines?
1:12:08 Speaker 01 I think one of the best, and it alluded to earlier, is the Jill propositioning Shoresy and Laura, because it plays out over a couple of episodes and it is, it really is this interesting, because we almost, like I said, we almost never see relationships addressed. All the dynamics and relationships that we see in the show are between our teammates. There aren't really-
1:12:33 Chris Ryan? The Jims have slept with these women that these guys were also into.
1:12:37 Speaker 06 Right, you have to pick between.
1:12:38 Speaker 01 Exactly, and it's, none of them have-
1:12:40 Chris Ryan? Remember when the Jims were like, I looked into her eyes all night, we spoke, you know, next thing I knew, sun was up.
1:12:46 Speaker 06 And then Britt picked Jim and he's like, we should do something really amicable and lovely, now she's like, let's go to the strip club.
1:12:52 Speaker 01 Which is on the other side of this bar. Really funny, but so, so not only to get into, for last season, for Shoresy to really have to prove himself to Laura to win her, because she knows, as does everybody, hockey players can't be trusted in relationships. They're sluts.
1:13:12 Speaker 06 You don't date sluts, you just take them down!
1:13:18 Speaker 06 It's a great show.
1:13:18 Chris Ryan? I'm seeing you just with the safety off, you know?
1:13:21 Speaker 06 It's a great show. I'm just quoting Canon, you know?
1:13:24 Speaker 01 These are the, this is the text of our time.
1:13:27 Speaker 06 I agree.
1:13:27 Chris Ryan? Zeke just be like, what do you want slut every time?
1:13:30 Speaker 01 Oh, my God.
1:13:30 Chris Ryan? Shoresy walks in.
1:13:32 Speaker 01 Incredible.
1:13:33 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:13:33 Speaker 01 So you get a relationship, you build or you build to a relationship at the end of last season.
1:13:38 Speaker 06 Yes.
1:13:38 Speaker 01 When he runs that marathon, when he gets that, when the letter is read.
1:13:42 Speaker 06 Oh, my God.
1:13:43 Speaker 01 And then this season, as they're negotiating, you know, like the idea that you would tell me in season five of Shoresy, like he's like, he's negotiating, moving in with his girlfriend and like, like negotiating the dynamics of his relationship with her teenage son.
1:13:58 Speaker 06 Right.
1:13:59 Speaker 01 I would be like, oh, that sounds like not Shoresy. And it is absolutely Shoresy in the best way. And this thing where Jill propositions Laura and Shoresy and the way they talk it out and the way it gets talked out. And this idea of like, oh, you talk to your friends about me? How do you talk to your friends about me? All of that stuff was, because you talked about it earlier, it is, this is a coming of age story.
1:14:25 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:14:25 Speaker 01 In many ways for middle aged men.
1:14:27 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:14:27 Speaker 01 Not just for the kids. The kids are just, when, when you gave us the season of kids, it was like, well, here's what it is.
1:14:33 Speaker 06 Right.
1:14:33 Speaker 01 In reality, but this is unquestionably what we're doing for these grown ass men.
1:14:38 Chris Ryan? Yes.
1:14:38 Speaker 06 Yes.
1:14:39 Chris Ryan? Yeah. And it's, I, I guess, you know, not to be like, can Shoresy do this, but not like, I do wonder whether or not a season of this show is functional without like a central hockey plot, like of these guys, they have against all odds are going to try this. Obviously, like the emotional highs of this show are way higher when they are going for it in some way like that. But you could tell me this show's going to go for another 13 seasons like Letter Kenny did. And it winds up just being a slice of life of these guys banging around.
1:15:10 Speaker 01 Interesting.
1:15:10 Chris Ryan? Sudbury without hockey.
1:15:11 Speaker 01 I think it would be harder only because, and I think Letter Kenny really works because you can, episode to episode, do anything.
1:15:18 Chris Ryan? Right.
1:15:19 Speaker 01 Shoresy, you really are tied to some forward-moving narrative that is almost always inside of a sports story.
1:15:27 Chris Ryan? Yes.
1:15:28 Speaker 01 And how can you, like, I don't know, does Shoresy work if next season is about Shoresy, for the most part, Laura and her son at home, they're all like negotiating, becoming a nuclear family, and it's really about Shoresy acclimating to life at Bro Dude as a commentator?
1:15:47 Chris Ryan? Well, this is what I was kind of nervous about in season four, and then I was like, oh no, they're gonna do Bad News Bears. You know what I mean? Like, this is amazing. What do you think? Do you think they have to always have, do they, do you think they have to keep coming up with EU All-Star teams to play or something?
1:15:59 Speaker 06 I think they will, and that's like the genius of it, because I, my heart stopped when I was, like, I caught up on the first three seasons before season four. And when we got to the, this is the end of Shoresy.
1:16:11 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:16:12 Speaker 06 Part one, I was like panicked. What does that mean? Where are we going from here? And then I remember the first trailer, if memory serves, the first trailer for season four was just tubing.
1:16:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:16:24 Speaker 06 And I was like, what is, what is happening? But also, I can't wait.
1:16:29 Chris Ryan? But that's when I was like, is this gonna be Letterkenny? Is this gonna be like, these guys having funny conversations in and around town?
1:16:35 Speaker 06 But even the idea of the offseason and Weird Sudbury and like, building toward the choice of like, all season mounts toward Weird Sudbury just to decide not to go, because the Blueberry buddies are more important and that relationship is more substantial ultimately. Hockey was still the backdrop for all of that, so I don't know that it, especially after a season like this, which is a declaration of a soul-bone-deep connection to the proposition of hockey.
1:16:57 Chris Ryan? Right.
1:16:58 Speaker 06 I think that it has to be stitched into the fabric of the show. What exactly does that look like and how do they keep to, like, keep evolving?
1:17:06 Chris Ryan? I think they're gonna keep coming up with ways that Hitch, Dolo, Goody, playing hockey. Like, they've, they've done it in real life.
1:17:13 Speaker 06 Yeah, those guys have to be there. Like, JJ Sanguinette, as we said, is not on the show anymore. JJ, Frankie JJ is like, not on the show anymore. Characters have come in and out of the universe of the show. I don't, I can't imagine Shoresy without Shoresy, Goody, Hitch, and Dolo. That is difficult for me to think about.
1:17:28 Speaker 01 I was just gonna say. I think that's important as well. Because I, I could see a world in which, I will say, there is a show that works, that is... A couple of the guys, Nat and Zigg, and the younger generation where the guys are coaching a teen team.
1:17:50 Chris Ryan? Sure.
1:17:51 Speaker 01 You know, that the, the, the sports story maybe isn't for the adults, it's for the younger generation and the adults are plugged into it.
1:17:59 Speaker 06 Well, that maybe gets back to what you were just saying, like workshopping the, okay, could it be the, the new nuclear family with Lauren or something like maybe it's, it does his hockey team, the kids hockey team become a part of the story at some point? What's interesting is like, I have also found the Shoresy, Laura Moore, this is the summer I closed on Laura Moore thing to be, um, very genuinely surprising in its longevity and how gripping I found it. Cause initially, my relationship to the core, uh, dynamics of the show is that the OTP, the, the true love story of the show to me is Shoresy and Nat.
1:18:27 Chris Ryan? Right.
1:18:28 Speaker 06 Without question.
1:18:29 Chris Ryan? Right.
1:18:29 Speaker 01 Oh, interesting.
1:18:30 Speaker 06 I don't even mean that romantically.
1:18:31 Chris Ryan? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:18:32 Speaker 06 It's like, that is, that is the deepest love.
1:18:35 Speaker 01 Well, they have, they, they, they have a fully shared point of view. They are both relentlessly pursuing greatness in hockey.
1:18:44 Speaker 06 Yes, and they can be the most unapologetic and unvarnished version of themselves in front of each other. And there have been so many moments across the five seasons where they sit, where they're sitting next to each other, they're, they can't look at each other, they're turned and one of them just gently puts a hand on the other one's back or something where you're like, wait, is this about to change? And then you realize, I don't, it's not like I need it to change.
1:19:03 Chris Ryan? They'll play with that relationship too, because that moment where you think that he's gonna ask Nat to be the coach with him.
1:19:07 Speaker 06 Iconic.
1:19:07 Chris Ryan? I was like, holy shit.
1:19:08 Speaker 06 Iconic.
1:19:09 Chris Ryan? And then it was just like, no.
1:19:10 Speaker 06 He's like, no.
1:19:10 Speaker 01 You've never, you've never been on the ice. Never stepped on the ice.
1:19:13 Speaker 06 I've skated my whole life.
1:19:14 Chris Ryan? So, uh, the season ends, like they have this incredible, and we can talk a little bit about the final episode, but they have this incredible moment where they're playing against the EU All-Stars, this outdoor rink outside of a church. The entire town of Sudbury has come out. Um, it's violent, bloody.
1:19:30 Speaker 01 They've been told, I think the, one of the best things is they've been told in no uncertain terms.
1:19:35 Speaker 06 No fighting.
1:19:35 Speaker 01 No fighting by the church, the people, the church that owns the rink. If there's fighting, we're gonna call the cops and we're gonna shut it down. And the minute the whistle is blown to start the game.
1:19:45 Speaker 06 Drop the gloves.
1:19:46 Speaker 01 They drop the gloves and sticks and a fist, and a gigantic melee breaks out.
1:19:50 Chris Ryan? Yes, and it's a really close game that they wind up losing because the
1:19:53 Speaker 06 On a dive.
1:19:54 Chris Ryan? Euros dive, but the larger moral victory is won. And
1:20:01 Chris Ryan? We still don't really have a no show though, right? Like, I mean, so the hockey league itself has collapsed. These guys are all presumably going back to their jobs. So like, yeah, I mean, going forward, I have no doubt that they'll be able to come up with something really, really entertaining for two hours.
1:20:14 Speaker 01 Oh, absolutely.
1:20:15 Chris Ryan? You know, and I honestly, no matter, like whatever machine they need to build to make it so that it's like, we need to do this because we need a charity match to save
1:20:24 Speaker 01 Great.
1:20:24 Chris Ryan? this community center or whatever.
1:20:26 Speaker 01 Great, because
1:20:27 Chris Ryan? I don't care.
1:20:28 Speaker 01 The, the, the mechanics of the, of the sports storyline really just help us move forward.
1:20:34 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:20:34 Speaker 01 Uh, and care about stuff, but really what we care about is the, this is, this show is just a masterpiece of character, barely development. You know what I mean? Like so many of these characters are inching forward in terms of their emotional development, but nonetheless.
1:20:50 Speaker 06 Arrested development for many.
1:20:51 Speaker 01 Moving somewhere, you know? The scenes where repeatedly they're, they're getting their house in order, getting a house in order, boys, you know? It's so funny and all of their shitty relationships.
1:21:04 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:21:04 Speaker 01 And Hitch and his girlfriend thinking they
1:21:06 Speaker 06 Hitch and Pam, yeah.
1:21:07 Speaker 01 They have the best relationship because when Hitch fucked the hockey mom, she got back at him by fucking him and now they're good.
1:21:13 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:21:13 Speaker 01 So
1:21:14 Speaker 06 Great stuff.
1:21:15 Speaker 01 It's the best. And so the idea that they can keep playing with these characters, I think is very, like, this is a show that is, to me, always refillable.
1:21:26 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:21:26 Speaker 01 Because the characters are just so perfect.
1:21:29 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:21:29 Speaker 01 And, you know, like, yes, it's all gonna come down to a game at some point. Sure. I, but I'm not here for the games.
1:21:36 Speaker 06 Right.
1:21:36 Speaker 01 You know?
1:21:37 Chris Ryan? I mean, and they're also making it, uh, six episodes a season, almost twice a year at this point.
1:21:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:21:44 Chris Ryan? You know what I mean? So it's like, it's pretty, I don't think we'll, I don't think we'll get season six this season, year, maybe?
1:21:51 Speaker 01 I doubt it.
1:21:52 Chris Ryan? I don't think we will, but
1:21:53 Speaker 01 I doubt it.
1:21:54 Chris Ryan? Um, I didn't get a chance to talk to you about Heat Rivalry, really.
1:21:57 Speaker 06 I, I mean, let's fucking go.
1:21:59 Chris Ryan? Uh, and we don't have to go nuts on it, but Heat Rivalry shares
1:22:03 Speaker 01 Jacob Tierney is like an essential part of Letter Kenny.
1:22:06 Chris Ryan? Yes.
1:22:07 Speaker 01 You know, both on camera and off, and has been like a part of that world forever.
1:22:12 Chris Ryan? And the sort of emergence of Tierney coming out and making Heat Rivalry, which is not only a successful adaptation of a wildly beloved, um, piece of fiction, but To make it in such a different way than the way the Kiesewitz shows have been made in the past, which is like incredibly static, incredibly flat, everything is about like jokes building verbally rather than through sight gags or anything like that.
1:22:38 Speaker 06 Right.
1:22:38 Chris Ryan? It's just, it was pretty shocking. That's the only thing that was shocking about Heat of Rivalry. I know what you're thinking. Um, what, I mean, just, what did you think of Heat of Rivalry as a series? And do you ever, do you, do you see any connective tissue between the two things?
1:22:52 Speaker 06 Um, I, I think that they are quite different shows. Obviously, I love them both.
1:22:58 Chris Ryan? Although both about getting into exotic positions.
1:23:01 Speaker 06 Absolutely. About understanding who you are and embracing that in full and surrounding yourself with other people who embrace that in full. Um, I thought Heat of Rivalry was wonderful. I mean, I loved the whole season. I thought it really evolved, you know, over the course of the first couple of episodes. You're like, this is sexy. This is fun. Uh, third episode, of course, we get the, are we spoiling things? I can speak in generalities. We get, you know, an episode centered around different characters other than the main characters. And it was very shocking, but in an incredibly energizing way where you're like, I don't really totally know what I'm watching, but I'm very invested in this. Episode four, I think is when you realize you're watching just, and, and episode three, but you're back with Ilya and Shane in episode four. You're like, we're watching prestige TV. This is just exceptional. I thought episode five is one of the best episodes of TV of
1:23:43 Speaker 06 the year. And I thought that the Shane, Ilya conversation where Ilya is speaking in Russian and we're just watching Shane's face was one of the best TV scenes of the year. And in the finale, I was sobbing like a fucking baby the entire time. I, I loved it.
1:23:56 Speaker 01 I think the thing that's clear about Letter Kenny and Shoresy is, and I think this is Jared Kiesewitz's whole thing, is I'm interested in excavating small town life. And life, the, the life that are the people, it used to be called Letter Kenny Problems. And it was all about the problems of the people of Letter Kenny, small town problems and how you settle them, usually with fistfights, you know? And that's, if there's fighting in Shoresy, there's a million times more fighting in Letter Kenny.
1:24:27 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:24:28 Speaker 01 Because Wayne, Jared Kiesewitz's character, is the toughest guy.
1:24:33 Speaker 01 In Letter Kenny.
1:24:34 Chris Ryan? Right.
1:24:34 Speaker 01 And so whenever there's a new tough guy who shows up, he has to come and fight Wayne. Or they have to go and fight some guy who did something. So the number of montage, seven minute long fight scenes in Letter Kenny is enormous.
1:24:49 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:24:49 Speaker 01 Absolutely crazy. And so to me, Heated Rivalry is taking all of those small town things and blowing them up.
1:24:59 Chris Ryan? Yes.
1:24:59 Speaker 01 You know, and putting them on a much larger stage and much larger, like, everything gets bigger. Everything becomes, it's not, it's, but still concerning itself with small character things.
1:25:10 Chris Ryan? I think that the lesson from the two shows ultimately is like, it's just much more interesting to watch TV about characters that aren't easily pinned down.
1:25:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:25:19 Chris Ryan? You know, like you could watch a version of Shoresy, and this kind of goes back to the first episode of the season five, where you're like, the easy thing to do would have Shoresy bust Jack's balls, make fun of him.
1:25:31 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
1:25:32 Chris Ryan? Like, and then be like, you know, like, I'll coach you because you don't understand. There's so many like logical, instead he shows this incredibly tender side. There are so many moments in Heated Rivalry where you're like, I got it. I know where this is going. I know what this guy is like. I know what that guy is like. And they show you a completely different side. And that goes all the way down to like, Ilya's the girl who lives with Ilya. You know what I mean?
1:25:54 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah, sure.
1:25:54 Chris Ryan? Like, you know, or like, uh, yeah, like, it's just, there's so many different wrinkles to all these different.
1:26:00 Speaker 06 Shane's conversation with his mother at the end.
1:26:02 Chris Ryan? Yeah, like you expect when the parents find out, when Shane's parents find out, you're like, oh shit, this is gonna be it. And they're like, huh, okay.
1:26:08 Speaker 01 Both of them do an incredible job servicing discovery and surprise.
1:26:13 Speaker 06 Yes.
1:26:14 Chris Ryan? Sure.
1:26:14 Speaker 01 In ways that you think you know what kind of a story you're inside of. And you're like, oh, that, I'm genuinely surprised by that. And isn't that, especially for people like us who spend all of our time inside of television, to be able to be surprised by a thing is very rare.
1:26:33 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:26:34 Speaker 01 Or to be like, oh, that did not happen.
1:26:37 Chris Ryan? Or for, and for a show to not make the surprise its entire raison d'etre, to be like, you thought it was gonna. If I could be like this.
1:26:44 Speaker 01 You idiot.
1:26:44 Chris Ryan? Dumbass, there's more than one silo.
1:26:47 Speaker 01 Well, that's the thing is, it's not.
1:26:48 Speaker 06 Spoiler, bro.
1:26:49 Speaker 01 It's not a rug pull. That, I think that's such a good point. It's never interested in, in a, it being a rug pull.
1:26:56 Chris Ryan? No, it's people are complicated.
1:26:57 Speaker 01 Or calling attention to it. It's that people are making choices that you're like, oh, of course, that is a choice that I just, that I don't think narrative television would always make in this way.
1:27:07 Speaker 06 And of course, the relationship that each story has to hockey, even though they are both in some way a hockey show, is radically different. Shane and Ily are the two best players of their generation.
1:27:18 Chris Ryan? Yes.
1:27:18 Speaker 06 This is not whale shit hockey. This is Montreal and Boston, the top picks in the draft, and they've won Stanley Cups and they've won MVPs.
1:27:25 Chris Ryan? And generationally, like on the others, like, you know, like Sid and, and yeah.
1:27:29 Speaker 06 Yes, exactly. And so then it's like, okay, well, if the rapper that defines my life and my public persona and my earnings and my endorsement deals, if I didn't feel like I could be myself inside of that, what would that mean? Their relationship to the sport is different from each other, of course, but certainly very different from all of our blueberry Bulldogs. So I think we get, we just get way less hockey in heated rivalry. Like it, it, it doesn't function as a, a sports show quite in the same way that shoresy does. Like obviously we have some scenes on the ice and some scenes in the locker room, but much more to establish like the position that they each hold, their stature inside of the game. And then how that influences the journey.
1:28:14 Speaker 01 A lot of position.
1:28:14 Chris Ryan? Yeah, they sure do.
1:28:15 Speaker 06 I mean, you, when you were saying pinned down earlier, I've been waiting, but here we go at last.
1:28:20 Chris Ryan? Um, they also share Wolf Parade, which they.
1:28:24 Speaker 01 Oh, yes.
1:28:24 Speaker 06 This, I felt bad about because I spoiled this for you.
1:28:26 Chris Ryan? It's okay. I think.
1:28:27 Speaker 06 I thought you had finished the season and I texted you and I was like Wolf Parade back and you're like.
1:28:31 Chris Ryan? Haven't gotten that one.
1:28:32 Speaker 06 What the fuck? I felt really bad.
1:28:34 Chris Ryan? They both drop Wolf Parade and I, I couldn't help but wonder, uh, Carrie Bradshaw style, if.
1:28:39 Speaker 06 I love when you do that.
1:28:40 Chris Ryan? It was Jared Kiesewetter saying, tip of the, tip of the cat, Jake.
1:28:44 Speaker 01 And just like that.
1:28:45 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:28:45 Speaker 01 And just like that, a Wolf Parade needle drop.
1:28:48 Chris Ryan? Jumped right way up.
1:28:49 Speaker 06 Was that your favorite needle drop of the season? Obviously in heated rivalry, yes, but of course. The Van Morrison.
1:28:54 Chris Ryan? Uh.
1:28:55 Speaker 01 Van Morrison got me.
1:28:56 Speaker 06 Oh, man.
1:28:56 Chris Ryan? There's nothing better in the world than the amount of, uh, Armon Van Helden that they just, like, the amount of UK garage and house songs that they're just like, yeah, this is just, we're doing it.
1:29:07 Speaker 01 One of the things that I'm curious, what you said, because you like, you binged all three seasons before, for is like, I think one of the, um, visual things that you have to get used to with, and it happened in Letter Kenny and with Shoresy, is for a show that is remarkably short in length per episode, an enormous amount of almost every episode is just a music montage.
1:29:32 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah.
1:29:33 Speaker 01 That is either, in this season, the strip club, it's the hockey games, it's the fistfights.
1:29:39 Speaker 06 The bras, yeah.
1:29:40 Speaker 01 It is long, long.
1:29:41 Chris Ryan? The celebration of them winning the no-show, I think, is like a full episode, right? It's like of a montage, basically.
1:29:48 Speaker 01 And like, full song.
1:29:49 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah.
1:29:50 Speaker 01 You can listen to the whole song play out.
1:29:52 Speaker 06 Oh, yes.
1:29:53 Speaker 01 Um, there, in Letter Kenny, there are oftentimes fights, which are incredibly choreographed.
1:29:59 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:29:59 Speaker 01 And like, so satisfying to watch, but you're like, I think I've been watching this fight for four full minutes.
1:30:05 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:30:05 Speaker 01 Of this 20-minute episode.
1:30:07 Chris Ryan? I thought I'd notice it mostly on this season where I was like, there are a couple of Shoresy episodes that are, it's like, there's 12 minutes of acting.
1:30:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:30:14 Chris Ryan? And the rest of it is like a montage with like a house anthem.
1:30:17 Speaker 06 That is, of course, a difference between the two shows, too. There are a number of wonderful performances in Shoresy, but just the ethos, the energy is so different. Where, you know, you're watching just Kiso do something, I think, kind of god-tier and astonishing. A lot of the people in a scene in Shoresy are like, people who played hockey well enough to be in Shoresy and are learning how to find that comedic rhythm. And then, across the seasons, this is really advanced. Like, I watched Heat at Rivalry, and I'm like, Connor Story is gonna be one of the most famous people alive.
1:30:45 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:30:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:30:45 Speaker 06 You know, Hudson Williams is becoming a sensation for a reason. Like, so that, they're very different, but I do love this, uh, kind of shared thread across them. And I, you know, I just, what a time to be on the rink.
1:30:57 Chris Ryan? I, I love the thread that we share.
1:30:59 Speaker 01 Oh, it makes me so happy.
1:31:01 Chris Ryan? I will re-convey us.
1:31:03 Speaker 06 What will we pod about next?
1:31:03 Chris Ryan? I mean, like, I could keep going, but like, I feel like that's a good place to end. We will hopefully find something new in between now and the next season.
1:31:10 Speaker 01 If we don't, we're fools.
1:31:12 Chris Ryan? Yeah. Jason Mantzoukas, thank you so much for coming by.
1:31:15 Speaker 01 Chris, an absolute delight. Mal, just the best.
1:31:18 Speaker 06 Thrill of my life to be here with you.
1:31:20 Chris Ryan? Thanks to Kai, thanks to Kai. Andy and I will be back on Monday. I think the, it's a pretty full dance card for Monday because we have some Paramount Warner Brothers Netflix post-game stuff. We have DTF St. Louis.
1:31:32 Speaker 01 We, okay, incredible. I'm all in on this show.
1:31:37 Speaker 06 I can't wait.
1:31:38 Speaker 01 Steve Conrad is the greatest.
1:31:40 Chris Ryan? Yes.
1:31:41 Speaker 01 Steve Conrad, my favorite patriot, Perpetual Grace Limited, Ultra City Smith.
1:31:46 Chris Ryan? And was the original showrunner on Seven Kingdoms.
1:31:49 Speaker 01 Yes, he was. He's a really, he wrote the first adaptation of The Duncan Egg Book. And I've only seen one episode of DTF St. Louis, but I think it's incredible. I'm so stoked for it. This is the other thing, sorry. I wanna, I'm gonna say this because I said it on this show. I told you about Shoresy. You slept on it. The show that I feel like everybody is sleeping on right now.
1:32:12 Chris Ryan? Is it The Fairies?
1:32:13 Speaker 01 Is Dark Winds.
1:32:14 Chris Ryan? Oh, fuck dude, can I, can I tell you something?
1:32:16 Speaker 01 If, I don't understand what is going on. You guys are gonna fucking lose it.
1:32:21 Chris Ryan? I know. And then the last time this happened, it was Mr. Inbetween. People were just like, what's your fucking problem?
1:32:26 Speaker 01 It's good.
1:32:27 Chris Ryan? Dark Winds is just the show that I've been like, I, I just can't abide being 30 hours behind on this, you know, or whatever it is.
1:32:35 Speaker 01 I understand.
1:32:36 Chris Ryan? But I saw that they were doing a 70s LA episode coming up and I was like, damn dude.
1:32:42 Speaker 01 This season has Titus Welliver in it. FYI, Bosch is in the show.
1:32:47 Speaker 06 Bosch Hive Rise.
1:32:48 Speaker 01 So get involved. But regardless, each of these seasons has been phenomenal.
1:32:55 Chris Ryan? So first season, you would start with the first.
1:32:57 Speaker 01 Incredible. Just start with, like, and honestly, you kind of don't need to. Like, each of them is a contained singular story. Each one is one case.
1:33:06 Chris Ryan? Okay.
1:33:07 Speaker 01 Or a couple of interrelated cases. It's not like one big, I mean, there is some larger.
1:33:12 Speaker 06 Character continuity across the seasons.
1:33:13 Speaker 01 There is absolutely character continuity, but each, each, they're based on books and each one is basically one case that falls into.
1:33:20 Chris Ryan? Have you ever started a show like midway through?
1:33:23 Speaker 06 I would die.
1:33:24 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:33:24 Speaker 06 I would.
1:33:24 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:33:25 Speaker 06 I'm actually not capable of doing that.
1:33:27 Speaker 01 I don't think you should, but you cannot recommend it enough.
1:33:31 Chris Ryan? Okay.
1:33:31 Speaker 01 As not just like, not just phenomenal, but consistently phenomenal.
1:33:36 Chris Ryan? Okay. You, do you have a recommendation for things that you don't talk about on House of R that you'd love to get off your chest?
1:33:42 Speaker 06 I think this is a great time to invest in the Baltimore Orioles.
1:33:44 Speaker 01 Oh, boy.
1:33:45 Chris Ryan? Oh, my Christ.
1:33:46 Speaker 01 I'm just, I'm only doing this because I'm looking at my Shoresy notes.
1:33:49 Chris Ryan? Do you feel like?
1:33:49 Speaker 01 Cause I made Shoresy notes.
1:33:50 Speaker 06 This is the year. They're gonna win the World Series.
1:33:51 Chris Ryan? All right. I'd like to have you come on maybe for a spring training episode with me and Andy. We can talk about the futility of cheering for baseball teams outside of Los Angeles Dodgers.
1:33:58 Speaker 06 That would be great. Hence, I will not be rooting for the Dodgers.
1:34:00 Chris Ryan? So Andy and I are gonna do DTF St. Louis. We'll probably hit Paradise. I think the Top Chef episode is up on Peacock, apparently.
1:34:07 Speaker 06 Okay.
1:34:07 Chris Ryan? The first episode of the season.
1:34:08 Speaker 06 You guys talking some Survivor?
1:34:10 Chris Ryan? No.
1:34:10 Speaker 06 Basically, all I think about right now is Survivor.
1:34:12 Speaker 01 Really?
1:34:13 Speaker 06 Season 50. Yes.
1:34:14 Speaker 01 That's all I think, but that's how I am with Alone.
1:34:17 Speaker 06 That's a thing you've loved for a long time.
1:34:19 Chris Ryan? Where they get dropped in the middle of nowhere?
1:34:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:34:20 Chris Ryan? But not naked?
1:34:21 Speaker 01 No.
1:34:22 Speaker 06 It's not naked. Naked and afraid.
1:34:23 Speaker 01 That's Naked and Afraid. This is like real deal. Like you are alone. There's no camera crew. You are the camera crew. You don't, and people, and the last person there wins either half a million dollars or a million dollars, and they're out there alone for months.
1:34:36 Chris Ryan? Oh, my God.
1:34:37 Speaker 01 It is. So you're watching people at first figure out how to survive. What's gonna be my food source? Where am I gonna get water from? I need to build a shelter. Where should that be? And then once those, once enough people have gotten that far, and some people have dropped out, you're watching people lose their minds. Because they are alone.
1:34:55 Chris Ryan? That's cool.
1:34:55 Speaker 01 For weeks and weeks and weeks at a time. It's incredible.
1:34:58 Chris Ryan? Do you think you could do it?
1:35:00 Speaker 01 No.
1:35:00 Chris Ryan? The isolation.
1:35:01 Speaker 01 Oh, oh, yes.
1:35:03 Speaker 06 Yes, you definitely could do that part. Come on.
1:35:05 Speaker 01 That part, that part I got covered.
1:35:07 Chris Ryan? You just couldn't build a fire and stuff like that.
1:35:09 Speaker 01 I, I would have a lot of trouble with the like actual like foraging and getting food.
1:35:14 Speaker 06 Do they let you bring your glasses? You could start a fire with those?
1:35:16 Speaker 01 You can bring 10 items.
1:35:18 Speaker 06 Okay.
1:35:19 Speaker 01 I could, I, so one of the, I could start a fire. I could get fires going.
1:35:21 Chris Ryan? 10 packs of cigarettes.
1:35:22 Speaker 01 And then 10 packs of bar bars.
1:35:28 Speaker 06 You were a Camel guy, right?
1:35:29 Chris Ryan? I was, yeah.
1:35:30 Speaker 06 I felt so proud of myself yesterday in this very office. Our colleague, Jack Wilson, asked, was Chris an American Spirits guy?
1:35:36 Chris Ryan? No.
1:35:36 Speaker 06 And I said, Camel.
1:35:37 Chris Ryan? Yeah, Camel.
1:35:38 Speaker 06 And he's like, are you sure? And I said, this is a friendship test, and I feel sure.
1:35:41 Chris Ryan? It was Winston's, uh, very, you know, just a guy came into a bar I was working at, and he was like, do you sell cigarettes? And we said, no. And he was like, I work for Winston. Next time somebody asks you that, will you give them a free complimentary pack? And we said, absolutely, Mr. Winston.
1:35:56 Speaker 06 Sounds like a Mad Men episode.
1:35:57 Chris Ryan? And we took all those cigarettes home and smoked them. And then I became addicted to cigarettes and then moved into Camels, because I was dating a girl who smoked Camels.
1:36:06 Speaker 01 Oh, okay.
1:36:07 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:36:07 Speaker 06 All of those tracks for me.
1:36:08 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:36:09 Speaker 06 All of it. Wow.
1:36:10 Chris Ryan? Yeah, and then I never stopped. And then I stopped. Now I still have nicotine problems.
1:36:13 Speaker 06 Um, yeah, okay.
1:36:14 Speaker 01 Were you ever a smoker?
1:36:16 Speaker 06 I have literally never had a cigarette in my life. But you know what I've loved? A cigar. I've loved a cigar over the years.
1:36:23 Speaker 01 Oh, that's a...
1:36:24 Speaker 06 I've loved a cigar over the years.
1:36:25 Chris Ryan? I think if you started smoking, it would be an incredible wrinkle for you.
1:36:29 Speaker 06 I don't, I don't know if the lungs can do it, man.
1:36:31 Speaker 01 It would be, it would be really funny if you just became not just a smoker, but like an in-studio smoker.
1:36:36 Chris Ryan? And like Dennis Leary style.
1:36:38 Speaker 01 And people knew that, like, oh, if you're gonna guest on House of R, like, now he's gonna smoke throughout.
1:36:44 Chris Ryan? Yeah.
1:36:44 Speaker 06 Well, what if I had like a pipe? I used to like to smoke pipe.
1:36:47 Speaker 01 I thought about pipe.
1:36:48 Chris Ryan? Who are the people in Hollywood who have
1:36:50 Speaker 06 Wear a tweed jacket?
1:36:51 Chris Ryan? indoor smoking rights?
1:36:52 Speaker 01 Sean Penn.
1:36:53 Speaker 06 That makes sense.
1:36:54 Chris Ryan? DiCaprio vapes everywhere, right?
1:36:55 Speaker 01 Sure. Sean Penn, I think, can smoke literally.
1:36:57 Chris Ryan? Like, Sean Penn lit up at like the Globes, right?
1:37:00 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:37:01 Chris Ryan? And that's it?
1:37:03 Speaker 01 Barack Obama?
1:37:05 Chris Ryan? He could, but even Barack would step outside.
1:37:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, I guess he would step outside.
1:37:09 Chris Ryan? There's all those shots of him, like, oh, God.
1:37:10 Speaker 01 You're right, you're right, you're right.
1:37:11 Speaker 06 What would my brand be?
1:37:12 Chris Ryan? Well, like...
1:37:13 Speaker 06 Of cigarettes?
1:37:14 Chris Ryan? Indian Creek, like, um, Kate from Sicario.
1:37:18 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:37:19 Speaker 06 Oh, shit. Sicario on your mind?
1:37:20 Speaker 01 Not like a, not like a Virginia Slims. Not like a skinny cigarette.
1:37:24 Chris Ryan? That would be interesting.
1:37:26 Speaker 01 I think Johnny Depp gets to smoke those gross.
1:37:30 Chris Ryan? Like cloves?
1:37:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, those gross cigarettes he smokes.
1:37:33 Chris Ryan? Inside, though?
1:37:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:37:35 Chris Ryan? Have you ever been on set with somebody who smoked cigarettes in your face, like, like while on set?
1:37:39 Speaker 01 Oh, wow. Probably. I'm trying to think who Johnny. I did do something with Johnny Depp and he was smoking constantly. And it was disgusting.
1:37:50 Speaker 01 But I'm trying to think of anybody who was like, like, like in a way that was like interruptive to the process.
1:37:57 Chris Ryan? Well, it's not even interruptive as much as it's just such a flex. It's like.
1:38:00 Speaker 06 You find it aspirational. I mean, this is one of your great hottest take episodes.
1:38:03 Chris Ryan? It ruins the indoors.
1:38:04 Speaker 01 Do you have an age where you're like at a, when I turn 70?
1:38:09 Chris Ryan? Yeah, brother.
1:38:10 Speaker 01 I'm gonna start smoking all the time because.
1:38:12 Chris Ryan? And I'll tell you what, it's not gonna be smoking that I get into.
1:38:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:38:15 Chris Ryan? You know what I mean?
1:38:15 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:38:16 Speaker 06 Heroin?
1:38:16 Speaker 01 You're going black tar, black tar heroin?
1:38:18 Chris Ryan? Like injecting.
1:38:20 Speaker 01 Straight, straight to the vein, baby.
1:38:22 Speaker 06 What's the age?
1:38:24 Speaker 06 No comment.
1:38:25 Speaker 01 As you get older.
1:38:26 Speaker 06 No comment.
1:38:26 Chris Ryan? Let's see how the world works out. You know what I mean? If it feels like imminent doom is there? Well, we like, I might just start being on ketamine while I'm on podcast all the time.
1:38:34 Speaker 06 I'm just gonna stick with edibles, I think. But you do you, man.
1:38:37 Chris Ryan? Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you to Kai.
1:38:40 Speaker 06 Thanks for inviting me.
1:38:40 Chris Ryan? Thank you to Kai. See you guys on Monday. Oh, we'll also have some industry mailbag questions.
1:38:44 Speaker 06 Oh, hell yeah.
1:38:45 Chris Ryan? Um, talk to you soon.
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Previous ‘Industry’ Season 4 Finale With Creators Konrad Kay and Mickey Down Next How the Warner Bros. Sale Changes Television. Plus, ‘DTF St. Louis’ and ‘Rooster’ Strike Out. Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated