James Gunn and Peter Safran Exit DC. Plus, Timothy Simons and Justine Lupe on ‘Nobody Wants This’ Season 3.

Andy talks about the shocking news that co-CEOs James Gunn and Peter Safran are stepping down from DC and what the seismic development means for the studio (1:49). Later, Andy is joined by ‘Nobody Wants This’ stars Timothy Simons and Justine Lupe to discuss their on-screen chemistry, how they’re involved with the writing process, what it feels like to become the romantic leads, shooting in Los Angeles, and more (10:59). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Host: Andy Greenwald Guest: Timothy Simons and Justine Lupe Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 2:11Speaker 05

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Andy Greenwald. I still have no official title at The Ringer, but I am happy to be joining you on what does feel like another line. I am still remote from New York. And our good friend, Chris Ryan, is on vacation, which is rare and deserved, so we won't bother him too much. A little bit of housekeeping. Today, you're going to hear from me, and then you're going to hear me talk to two very special guests: our old friend Tim Simons and our new friend Justine Loop, who are the co-stars, and some might say the secret stars, of the Netflix series Nobody Wants This. The third season premiered a couple of weeks ago, to great fanfare and fan response, and the show has just been renewed for season four. So it was really fun to talk to Tim and Justine together

• 2:55Speaker 05

  and get some insight into their obvious and unique chemistry, both on and off screen, and how their characters have kind of emerged as the de facto co-leads or second leads in a romantic storyline that is really, frankly, quite charming. So talk to them for quite a bit. I think it's worth it. If you've seen the show, if you haven't, they're just lovely people, talented people, and great guests. Plus, I got to drag Tim a bunch, which is always fun for me. The only other things to let you know, you guys know about, is that our Thursday show is in some state of flux due to the fact that neither Chris nor I are in our normal home studio or home city or home time zone. So we're trying to figure something out, but the details of that are TBD. But hopefully, we do get a second show off to you guys this week at some point,

• 3:40Speaker 05

  catching up on the lowdown, maybe doing a little bit more Black Doves, maybe something else that he's been watching and he'll tell me to watch tonight. That happens sometimes. The only big news that I wanted to cover briefly, although I'm sure we'll be unpacking it more in the future, was there was an actual industry surprise today. There was an unexpected shakeup. Just weeks after being announced as part of the newly merged Warner Brothers, Paramount, Skydance creative leadership team, it was announced today that James Gunn and Peter Safran are out as heads of the DC studios. This kind of caught a lot of people off guard. Not just that they were out, that they were out so abruptly,

• 4:23Speaker 05

  that they were out so shortly after being announced as being in. If there was a time for leadership change, I think many people thought it was right as the merger was happening for the fresh start. Also announced today is their replacement, a man named Jeremy Latsham, who was a former senior VP of production and development at Marvel and apparently overlapped with James Gunn on the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie. And then if you look at his credits, he seems like he had a pretty high-ranking and important role alongside Kevin Feige and Luis Desposito and the other leadership structure for those kind of Phase 1 into Phase 2 Marvel movies. So the new setup is Jeremy Latsham is stepping in. He begins in the position at the top of next month, December 1st,

• 5:05Speaker 05

  and interestingly, reporting to the Skydance Motion Picture Group co-chairs, Dana Goldberg and Josh Greenstein. This is an important detail in this announcement. A few weeks ago, when it was announced that James Gunn and Peter Safran were maintaining their titles as head of DC studios, they were part of, on the org chart, and I know you guys go nuts for Hollywood org charts. Who doesn't? They reported directly to the CEO, which was, you know, until a few weeks ago, David Zaslove, and then now is David Ellison and Ynon Kreis, who came over from Mattel. So now, DC, like the other heads of, like Warner has, you know, I think it's called Clockwork, or they have these other Warner Brothers animation, they now report directly to the head of film.

• 5:48Speaker 05

  The significance of this is that what Gunn and Safran had been empowered to do was basically run their own studio that was distributed by Warner Brothers and under the larger corporate umbrella, whether it was WBD or Skydance. What seems to be the case now is that DC is a brand. DC is an imprint, not its own studio. Which, you know, maybe that's just semantics, but it does feel kind of significant for how they want things to be managed. And maybe it's also for how they want costs to be managed. So it's been interesting to see some of the fallout. Gunn is still writing and directing and probably moving into post on the Superman sequel, Man of Tomorrow. The Skylar Gisando-starring, gorilla-grod Jimmy Olsen show,

• 6:31Speaker 05

  that's happening, happening soon. And Gunn, in his announcement, which was very much about how like, he kind of didn't like all the responsibilities of being the boss. He kind of likes just being an artist and filmmaker. He announced that he had just gotten the sign-off to write another project for them, TBD. And, you know, we'll see if that comes to fruition or not. It's interesting to think about why this happened, or why this happened now. I think some people are pointing to the massive, almost catastrophic money loss, money losing of Supergirl last summer. But that was last summer, and it's already, you know,

• 7:14Speaker 05

  the clock has turned, and attention then went to Clayface, which I didn't see, but by all accounts was fine and didn't really lose money, may have even broken even or made a little bit of money. And then going into Man of Tomorrow next summer seems like there was a little bit of wind back in their sails. And then there's always the speculation that's been bubbling this whole time about what he's going to greenlight next and what projects are still to come. Lanterns was quite a big hit, I think internally for the company and for HBO. But you could point to the fact that that was really Chris Mundie and his creative partners sort of steering a ship over some rocky waters while having to navigate the larger DCU demands of James Gunn. So I'll say this. I don't have any particular insight or any knowledge into it.

• 7:59Speaker 05

  But I think that this, my sense of this is that it is less about a repudiation or rejection of James Gunn's vision for the DC Universe. I think it's less about the financials or the optics of losing so much money on Supergirl. You know, that's Warner Brothers' problem. Skydance is, I guess, can start their books fresh, although they're crippled with enormous debt involved in the transaction to create the company in the first place. To me, this feels more like the essential challenge of elevating creatives to management. Like, this is a story that is one of the major stories throughout the history of Hollywood, that like, we have this industry that often conflates

• 8:44Speaker 05

  or expects an easy coexistence between two skillsets that couldn't have less to do with each other. This is something that you see a lot with showrunning, too, where sometimes the people who are the most brilliant creative minds, the most creative writers...

• 8:58Speaker 05

  Aren't necessarily the best managers. They are completely different parts of your brain. I think the very best, best, best, like, you know, top 1% are the people who are effortlessly good at both. But that's kind of like being, it's not even like being like Deion Sanders. It's like being really good at sports, but also really good at lyric poetry. You know, they are, couldn't be different hemispheres of the brain. So I'm not saying anything that Jane, I have no reason to believe James Gunn was bad at managing, but it does sound like a challenging thing when half of your job is something that used to be 100% of your job, which is writing and directing movies and TV shows that are very specific to the aesthetic that got you the job in the first place.

• 9:41Speaker 05

  And the other half of your job is building for the future and hiring people and setting the tone and trying to micromanage other people's projects to build the larger corporate things. And that's how you get ended up in trouble with stuff like, you know, the quote that he ended up kind of getting hung around his neck like an albatross, right? That where you said that the difference between the DCU he was going to create and the MCU that he was coming from was that in the MCU, well, he never specifically criticized the MCU, but he said that the DCU would start with a script. And only when the script was airtight would they go into production. And again, I think charitably, people who went to see Supergirl and Clayface,

• 10:21Speaker 05

  even those who liked the latter, would argue that that was clearly not the case. And then I wonder how many projects, whether it's like The Brave and the Bold, or What to Do About Batman, or what the future was beyond some of these very specific or niche passion projects of his, like Creature Commandos or Peacemaker, like what, where was the energy and where was the time building towards the larger project, which, you know, that's what Warner Brothers wanted out of DC after they saw what Disney was able to do with Marvel. It's kind of hard to have the person making the movies also be deciding on the future of the cinematic universe. So it does sound like they're going to go more in towards a feikey like brand management role for Jeremy Latcham.

• 11:03Speaker 05

  And then he'll be more able to hire and hopefully not too often fire the creatives to play into the larger corporate strategy. I gotta say, like, I, I'm looking forward to the Superman sequel. As someone who is a fan of what can happen when more unique creative voices are empowered to make larger decisions, it's kind of a bummer. I wish that it had worked, even though, you know, I'm not the number one gun guy, but I liked the idea of a very specific sensibility being the driving force and seeing how that shook out. And I would again, point to Lanterns as an example of a potential successful way forward, because Nathan Fillion as Guy Gardner is a kind of silly gun-like expression of a character that does one thing in Superman.

• 11:46Speaker 05

  But when he touched down in Nebraska in Lanterns, the silliness and extremity of the character was able to be shaded by the show that Mundy and Tom King and Damon Lindelof were making. So I thought that was cool. I thought it was interesting, but it will be interesting to see what comes going forward, because clearly the new leadership at Skydance, on some level, was like, what's the 10-year plan here, guys? And where's the consistency in it? And if the consistency is really tied to the one guy making one movie every three years, that's not a successful strategy for shareholders, which is not the why people should be making movies, but it is an interesting wrinkle about where we are right now. Okay, that was my take.

• 12:31Speaker 05

  That's today's show, basically, guys. I'm going to now turn it over to myself and my interview with Tim Simons and Justine Loop, co-stars of Nobody Wants This. Hope you guys want this. I love doing it. And we will be back in some shape or form at the end of the week. And don't worry, I've already made it clear that Chris gets one vacation every two or three years, and then he's back in the podcasting mines where he belongs. Enjoy the interview. Talk to you guys later in the week. I am so pleased to be joined on the podcast by two of the stars of the hit Netflix comedy, Nobody Wants This. Justine Loop and our old frenemy, Tim Simons. Welcome back to the show and welcome to the show.

• 13:13Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 13:14Speaker 07

  Thank you, Andy. It's great to see you.

• 13:16Speaker 05

  I'm very excited to talk to you guys. First of all, congratulations on season three and also congratulations on the recent announcement of the renewal for season four. This is, this is, this is, this is big.

• 13:28Speaker 07

  It's great.

• 13:32Speaker 05

  So, okay, so I want to start here. You guys are both savvy showbiz professionals. You know your way around the industry. And with that in mind, I'm wondering at what point in the process of your involvement in this show, was it as early as season one? Did you really look at the trend lines and you were like, this hot rabbi business really only has so many moves to make before it peters out and we're going to be the stars of this show? Like, at what point did you, at what point did you kind of see where it was headed? And like, just start making moves along those lines? Be honest.

• 14:06Speaker 07

  Justine and I have been pretty Machiavellian about this from the beginning. We, we talk a big game about being a very tight ensemble, but we, no, we've had a target on KB's and Adam's backs since the beginning.

• 14:21Speaker 05

  That's what I'm saying. Like, it was so cool, the way you guys just laid back in the cut. Nobody saw this coming, right?

• 14:27Speaker 06

  For sure. High five, Tim.

• 14:33Speaker 07

  It all just seems to have grown out of, I think, you know, a lot of opportunities, just in the amount of time, you know, I've said this before, but like, you know, in most like film romantic comedies, you have 90 minutes and, and every supporting character is there truly to, just to literally support the two people getting together. And I think just by nature of the fact that we have five hours of screen time every season, like, you can't help but give a little bit of extra time to flesh out the supporting characters on the show, whether it be Justine or me or Jackie or, or Stephanie and Michael,

• 15:17Speaker 07

  who played Justine and Kristen's parents. Like, there was just time to expand and, and the writers have just, have just been really generous in that.

• 15:29Speaker 05

  I think it's been really cool to see the way that, like, the writers have written towards some of the show's strengths and some of the chemistry that exists within the cast. But I wondered if you guys could talk, or maybe Justine, you could lead it off about like, the two of you getting to know each other as people and performers and starting to like, find little moments and take pleasure in the scenes that you got, even when they were more in the background prior to this season.

• 15:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, I feel like from the very beginning, I mean, you know Tim, as you mentioned earlier, just a few minutes ago.

• 15:56Speaker 05

  I'm not going to brag about it, but yeah.

• 15:58Speaker 06

  Like, you know, I was just, I was just doing, you know, he had a write-up in the Rolling Stone magazine and not to give him too much, you know, PR in one interview.

• 16:07Speaker 05

  He texted it to me. I mean, he, he's been doing his own PR on that.

• 16:12Speaker 06

  I, I said in that interview, I was one of the people that they turned to for, you know, quotes. And the thing about Tim is he's just so warm from the get. And so pretty immediately, I felt like a kindred spirit. I just, I was drawn to him. I felt really open with him. And I think because of that, when you feel that kind of instant warmth with someone, there's like, you know, you can kind of like relax a little bit. And because of that, stuff comes up and chemistry comes out and you can play a little bit more and you can feel comfortable, like, taking things a little bit further in certain spots. And so I would say like, pretty instantly, I felt like

• 16:56Speaker 06

  we were already having a lot of fun together on the show. And since then, he's like, become one of my best friends and we're, our spouses are close and I feel like our work has gotten more expansive together. We got to do some really fun stuff this year. And I just talked about this in an interview where I just feel like, when you do three years with someone, you get to kind of pull on the feeling that you have about them as a person in the work. It's kind of this like weird crossover between like, how I feel about Tim and how Morgan feels about. Sasha. And so I feel like some of the inherent love that I have for Tim came out in like this season between Morgan and Sasha. I hope that wasn't a too long winded answer.

• 17:41Speaker 05

  It was a wonderful way, but also a little overly kind and generous.

• 17:45Speaker 06

  I know. It's too much. That's the end of that, you know?

• 17:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, okay.

• 17:49Speaker 06

  You thought it while you could, Tim. Take it and run.

• 17:52Speaker 07

  I'm gonna take it and run. I'll also throw out just like that. Yeah, I think pretty early on, I felt like a similar style of work, even though Justine and I are different, certainly, but there was like a way that we looked at things that I felt like there was a Venn diagram overlap to. And whether that's just because we're both kind of weirdos or whatever. But I also think like, just to what Justine was saying about the person, is something I've said before, that Justine, even in this like sort of very messy and very, very chaotic character can bring this sort of intense vulnerability. And that was

• 18:36Speaker 07

  something that I really responded to personally, especially in those later episodes of this season, where there were times, you know, if for people that have seen the show, there's a scene in a parking garage, where Justine sort of like lays bare something that's very hard for her. And it was, it was, there was such an intense vulnerability to it that just sort of as an actor, I kind of wished the writers had just let me solve it. You know what I mean? I was like, Justine personally is in pain here, and I feel like we got to let her off the hook. You know what I mean?

• 19:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, Justine, you're brilliant in that scene, as you are in the whole season. Tim, I guess I wonder, you know, you are well known for your amazing role on Veep, and Jonah did change over those seasons, but I don't know how much he grew. And I wondered what it's been like having the chance to, you know, all pilots are essentially caricatures, and then they become characters, then maybe in success, they become people. I wonder what the experience has been like specifically for you getting the chance to do that and playing scenes in this most recent season, that I don't know anyone who had seen season one would think you had, not that you as an actor had in you, but that the character had in him.

• 19:50Speaker 07

  I mean, number one, like really flattering for the opportunity. That was not something that I, you know, this, this sort of like romantic, this romantic lane that we got thrown into was certainly not something that I thought I would ever be given an opportunity to do. So it's really flattering. And there was something that I did notice, even though I don't know that I thought about it at the time, as we were shooting, but just something I was realizing as I was watching it, that there actually has been a little bit of maturity and a little bit of growth from Sasha in ways that even I didn't expect when it started.

• 20:34Speaker 07

  So I don't know, I think I like grateful for the opportunity is the, the first way to think about it. And then after that, just like, you know, what a, like, what a gift that we have been on long enough to explore those things, you know, that we have had the time, you know, as you say, like, I don't think anybody looking at the first couple episodes of season one would have seen that being a part of it. But, you know, what a gift to do something that you're not norm, that you're not used to doing, that you can like, push against the edges of, of, and expand them, you know?

• 21:14Speaker 05

  I mean, maybe too much opportunity. I would think I speak for all the girl dads out there. When I see that the room that Sasha has just thrown together off of Etsy, like for his daughter, I was like, okay, that was like Bluey's dad level of like hyper competence, honestly. It's like, it's like a little much, setting the bar a little high. Justine, I'm not sure your, your process as an actor, but are you the sort of person that, you know, whether it's in the moment, in episodes, or at the end of a season, or in the build up to another season, where you ask the writers and creators, whether it's Aaron, or whether it's Jenny, like, you know, what, what am I going to get to do? What might you like to explore? And I wondered if you asked questions about what Morgan's journey might be. And were you surprised by some of the answers?

• 21:54Speaker 06

  Well, they invite us, they invite us into the writers' room once before we start production, basically to give us kind of like the overall arc of what's going to happen this year. They invited Tim and I the year before, they invited Kristen and I. And kind of just like gave us the bullet points of what they were thinking. It changed a lot from that point. But I do think, in retrospect, it was helpful that they invited us in, and they kind of gave us that overview, because I kind of like came back with the proposal. Initially, they were gonna have like Morgan, kind of like pretend that it didn't, New York didn't happen, and be, you know, kind of flippant about the whole thing, and write

• 22:38Speaker 06

  him off. And I kind of came back and was like, Aaron, what if Morgan carries the flame a little bit? Like, what if Morgan's the one that is like shook by this whole experience? And like, that this is like a bit of character development that she actually is like, there are stakes for her, that it's not just like, okay, bye, you know, like the normal kind of girl that we've seen over the seasons. And they took it and they ran with it, and they really, she was like, really excited by that idea. And so it was like a nice, I'd say that was the only time that they really let us into what was going to happen. And then, past that, Tim, like, yeah, they give us little updates, kind of throughout

• 23:18Speaker 06

  the season, but most of the time, we're getting the scripts, you know, pretty up, like on the line, we're like right on the line. And, and luckily, I think over these three seasons, there's been like this really nice rapport that's been built between us and the writers, where we can kind of talk and workshop things, after we have the table reads and, and propose like thoughts. But yeah, I enjoy having that little piece. And besides that, I kind of am not one to just get in there and be like, hey, what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? Just because I know so much changes anyway, especially in this kind of like Netflix comedy medium. And, and also because I kind of like the surprise

• 24:03Speaker 06

  of like what's ahead and not knowing what's coming.

• 24:06Speaker 05

  And I'd imagine you also see how that behavior is received when Tim does it. And you're like, I don't want to be that annoying.

• 24:14Speaker 07

  This is just, this is just a firing line.

• 24:18Speaker 05

  The essential story of season three is, too many people want to have sex with you. Like that is-

• 24:26Speaker 06

  Like, honestly, gross.

• 24:28Speaker 05

  It's just a little, like, you need a little brush back pitch, is all I'm saying. And this is the place for it.

• 24:34Speaker 07

  Yeah, I'm crowding the plate. You're right.

• 24:36Speaker 05

  But, but, but the question for you, Tim, like, in the same spirit, is like, I wonder what you thought of, you know, you have a show where you and Justine have wonderful chemistry as performers, and the characters suddenly have this unexpected chemistry. But, you know, in terms of like, creating a world in which characters can be respected, like Jackie's character, it has to be a whole person also. And so, your experience watching them creatively navigate that, as well as navigating it on screen, so that everybody got treated like an adult person, basically, even though, you know, the story was bending towards your character with Justine?

• 25:13Speaker 07

  No, I do think that that was, I mean, it was a conversation even in the first season. And, and ultimately, I do think that they did the right thing by, by not addressing it early, because it allowed, you know, it allowed for them to maybe write toward this, even if they hadn't decided. And I don't think they really decided until like the beginning of the pitch out of the third season. So even in the second season, I don't think necessarily that they were setting this all up for this season to happen. But it seemed to be, it felt like it was earned, and it got there naturally. And I think both Justine

• 25:56Speaker 07

  and I have talked before about the idea that like, yeah, it's an interesting story, but if you do it, and there's like, and you, it involves somebody cheating on their wife, and they have a kid, like, this ceases to be funny or charming, and is probably gonna lead to a revolt amongst audience members. And I do like that that time allowed for Esther to expand, and that this wasn't just like, oh, well, we're trying to rush toward this storyline, we need to actually give it some weight and do it properly.

• 26:31Speaker 05

  I assume you guys can feel comfortable speaking for her. We don't have the great Jackie tone on this call. But I imagine that she went to the writers' room and said, I need at least one of the leads from Wings as a romantic interest, if not both. I assume Tim Daly will arrive in season four, but like, that would sort of balance the scales.

• 26:46Speaker 07

  I, I actually got to go into the pitch out room twice. I went once with Justine, and the other time with Jackie, just because she needed me to back her up when she said, she actually demanded both this season, and the compromise was one.

• 27:00Speaker 05

  I see, I see. Or they were like, we can get you Stephen Weber and Tony Shalhoub, like, but we can't get Hayden Church, and we can't get Tim. Sorry, this is probably too much time on Wings.

• 27:11Speaker 07

  This is way too much time on Wings.

• 27:13Speaker 05

  But, you know, what other pod is gonna go there, you know? There is bravery still in the medium. Justine, you know, you are an incredibly accomplished actor. You are classically trained, as they say. I believe you're a graduate of the Juilliard School. But I imagine somehow, and I don't want to presume too much, we're just meeting here, that like, even when you were treading the boards, maybe part of you wanted to do a Pretty Woman montage, that like, that that might be something that most actors, and I imagine Tim wants that as well, and we'll get to that. But like, when you saw that's the shape of that episode emerging, was that appealing to you as a chance to like, do something like that?

• 27:51Speaker 06

  Yes. Yes, for sure. I mean, I grew up on Meg Ryan and Julia Roberts, and all, all, all the kind of classic rom coms were the ones that I kind of turned to over and over again, Four Weddings and a Funeral, like, all of them. I just love, I love that, that forum. So I was really excited to see that we, you know, as someone who's, as you said, I have, I have, I have some stuff, some work under my belt, but I've never been cast as the romantic lead, like, ever. You know, maybe in a couple of episodes of something on an obscure TV show that no one saw, or whatever. But I've never, never in this kind

• 28:31Speaker 06

  of like, I don't know, in this visible of a place. And so I think Tim and I both were really excited that our like, gangly Muppet bodies were elected to do this kind of bubble rom com episode. That felt kind of like a departure from the show and had its own little microcosm of all the romantic tropes and and also just, I don't know, some, some other stuff, too, you know, I, you know, the divorce talk, like, I love. And that's something that we don't really see in a lot of rom coms. So it wasn't just like quite on formula, but there was some really

• 29:12Speaker 06

  classic rom commy, um, moments that I just, I felt really excited by. And I love that we got to do our version of that as Tim and Justine as Sasha and Morgan. And I got to go with my really close friend and do it in New York. That was also amazing. So yes, it was like a gluttony of riches and I felt so excited. And it, it lived up to all my expectations. Um, we had a really great time doing it.

• 29:44Speaker 05

  How, how many days did you guys do that? I mean, like you said, it, it, it wasn't just that it was sort of out of character, out of the norm. You basically did a splinter, you know, and you were in New York City for a show that is so normally parked in LA.

• 29:55Speaker 06

  We did a few days in LA for the interiors, like the hotel was shot in LA.

• 30:00Speaker 07

  And the, like, some of the boutiques were in LA, like, the interior boutiques.

• 30:05Speaker 06

  Uh, but then we did three days in New York, right, Tim?

• 30:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, three, but really, the first day was just watch what happens live. So all the exterior New York stuff was really over the course of two days. Um, and our show, like, you know, I was a big deal, like, uh, to be able to find, I think, the time and the budget to go there. And I think the days that we shot in New York were ambitious and, uh, and just, but luckily, just everybody seemed very dialed in, like, uh, and not just like Richard, who was Richard Shepherd, who's the director of the episode, but like all of the, you know,

• 30:48Speaker 07

  our DP, Wes, everybody just seemed very locked in on, on being able to make a very ambitious schedule happen. You know what I mean? Just because I think everybody was, was excited about it.

• 31:02Speaker 05

  And Tim, what was that like for you? Because, you know, I, you are a versatile and talented performer, but I would imagine you kind of felt similar, that like, the opportunity to be the romantic lead in something pitched to that level of delight must have been refreshing. And I wonder if in any way it was also daunting, because you may have wanted to do it, but then here you are, you're having to do it.

• 31:22Speaker 07

  No, it is like, I, like, Justine and I have talked about this before, that like, it is, there is like, I, I've said this, and I'm like, you know, it's a quote from someone that I cannot remember, but I can't remember. This is dangerous.

• 31:38Speaker 05

  Totally canceled, by the way, but one good idea.

• 31:41Speaker 07

  People would rather do a sex, would rather do a death scene than a sex scene, because nobody knows what it's like to die. But a lot of people know what it's like to have sex, and so therefore, they can be judgmental about it. And I would get in my head sometimes, in, like, just as a performer, uh, sometimes you'll be brushing your teeth. And it's like, God, what if I brush my teeth weird? And then like,

• 32:06Speaker 05

  Most people do on screen, yeah.

• 32:08Speaker 07

  Yeah. And, and but then there's this thing of like, God, what if I kiss weird? And that is revealed, you know, like, what is supposed to be like this really, like, you know, this sort of climactic romantic moment. And then everybody is like, oh, God, oh, no, that's how he, that's how he does it?

• 32:28Speaker 05

  Justine, should we tell him? Or should we let him continue?

• 32:30Speaker 06

  I did have to tell him. He at one point was like, do we use tongue? And I was like, no, what? No.

• 32:37Speaker 05

  He asked that about podcasts, too. Like, it is not.

• 32:41Speaker 06

  I mean, not to play off of this too much, Tim, but there was also like a moment where we have to go, we both have to like be standing and facing each other. And we have to say, uh, hi, hi.

• 32:53Speaker 05

  Hey.

• 32:54Speaker 06

  Hey, hey. And Tim was like so mortified of that moment, I think, because he knew that he had done it when he was younger. And it was like the most cringe possible thing that you could, I mean, I think both of us had this opinion, this opinion of the, hey, hey, like, I've had guys say hey to me, and I've had the same kind of no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

• 33:14Speaker 05

  Hey is rough, yeah.

• 33:16Speaker 06

  So we were both going, oh, we're gonna have to do the hey thing. But it's the only time in the entirety of three seasons of working with Tim where he went away to another place while we were acting. I was like, I was like, you were not available, you were gone. It was like a cement block. Like, I was like, oh, okay. So Tim was like, completely disappeared. He's just, he's like, peace out on the hey.

• 33:41Speaker 07

  Where'd you go? I collapsed like a house of fucking cards. I, I think there was a part of me that was like, well, they're gonna cut this because they've seen me do this in rehearsal and in the table read. And it was awful. So clearly, they're gonna cut this. But then there we were on the High Line at like, four in the morning, and it was still there. And it was like, that was the, and I, it definitely, it was a moment that I don't know that I'm proud of, because I let, I let 22 year old worried about himself, Tim, play into a moment.

• 34:16Speaker 06

  I felt like as a team partner, I felt the moment that people describe when they're working with, when they're talking to like an alcoholic, and they're like, and then they go dark. And there's like snake eyes. Like, it's like, it was like that. I was like, oh, like, Tim's gone. There's like, I'm getting that snake eye thing that people talk about.

• 34:34Speaker 07

  And then Justine, in one of the earlier takes, then actually told me after, she was like, you were so gone that I felt like I had to do more. So she was like, hey, like,

• 34:46Speaker 07

  trying to put too much juice on it. But this, hey, but this, this does go back to like, yeah, there were things that like, yeah, definitely made you nervous. But again, it was, I, I, I tried my best not to like, run from the opportunity to think like, all right, well, building these moments is a part of the job. Like, how do we, how do we find our way to a moment like that?

• 35:14Speaker 06

  And you mostly got there, Tim. You know, you mostly got there.

• 35:17Speaker 07

  Except for that one, this is the, except for that one point where I absolutely didn't. I think I mostly got there.

• 35:25Speaker 06

  Every other moment.

• 35:26Speaker 05

  Mostly contains that, what you just said. It's just a nicer way to say it, you know, it just wasn't 100%. But really, it's something to grow on. No, but I do, I, I found this episode, I mean, first of all, I should have led with that. I mean, it's a, it's a delightful episode. It's a high point for the series. But one of the things that I really appreciate about it is that if you're doing an episode like that, if you're doing a full rom com fantasy, there are rules. Like, you have to find ways to, to be original and to surprise within it. But it's like a, like a three minute pop song, you gotta play the hits. And you have to provide certain things. And I wonder if there is excitement in that, but then also pressure, because you have to conform to either your expectations, or you know, people are watching it with their own. Like, just to use an example, like, I was delighted at the end with the crossing with the

• 36:10Speaker 05

  pillow and the blanket, because I don't think this is a brag to say, I knew that you would be behind the door the third time. But yet, to play it where you're looking, you're leaning in and looking forward to it, as opposed to like, of course, he's there, that's the balancing act.

• 36:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, that, I feel like we, I mean, we were both, we were both aware of it. We were both drawn to by it. And the way that Tim described, we kind of got to it. But the kiss thing, we were both like, please let us look hot. Please.

• 36:40Speaker 07

  Tell us if we don't.

• 36:41Speaker 06

  And let it get to the moment where we kiss and have people be like, yay, and sort of like, yeah, did it do. And it did work. I mean, I do feel like I can, as like, an objective, I mean, I feel like I could stand away from it and be like, oh, I feel like I didn't, that wasn't totally embarrassing. And, um, and, and, and when we were shooting it, it felt exciting because we were shooting in, on this one floor of a hotel. And so like, all the different camps of all the crew were in different parts of, in different rooms of the hotel. And when we kissed, you could hear in the background, like, people being like, yeah, like cheering kind of down

• 37:24Speaker 06

  the hall. Um, it was, it was really fun. Also, we were worried about it, too, because we're friends. And I will say, I was like, I was, every time we rehearsed it, I would go break into these giggle fits, where I'd just be like, I mean, why are we so, why are we so weird about this? And then finally, we get to the kiss, and he kind of, it keeps on going, it keeps on going past the moment where we kissed and we go into the bed. I ended up having to cut us for, for Richard, because I was like, I was spending way too much time on this bed after this kiss. And I'm like, with my brother on the bed. I was like, cut, we're good, we got it. And, um, and I was thinking about it afterwards. I was like, why did I feel so weird about this? Why

• 38:09Speaker 06

  was I such a little baby about this? And I, and I realized it was because Tim was like putting seriously, I don't know, he was putting me on the back foot with some like, actual game. And I'm like, that's something that like, the guy who's truly like, my brother, is making me feel kind of giddy and.

• 38:30Speaker 05

  I don't know. Turn on in this scene. You threw a little mustard on it. That's good. Throw a little mustard on it. And everything he's said since then about sex or throwing mustard on anything has completely turned off any part of that feeling that I had.

• 38:47Speaker 07

  Yeah, trust me, it was back to normal 15 minutes later where with her being so annoyed with me, like her little brother doing bitch. She's like, oh, God. There was, I think, there was also like, I think, a little bit of a pressure of like, knowing, well, holy shit, if that moment doesn't work, then all of the lead up of this episode, all of the lead up of the season, and then certainly all of the lead up of this particular episode.

• 39:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:16Speaker 07

  Doesn't work. But I think one of the great things about Richard, who directed it, was like, he was very committed to doing that in a oner. And just like you said, that idea of like, you knew he was gonna be there. But it makes me happy that that people are like, we knew he was gonna be there on the third one, and it's still got an emotional response. He was so committed to that oner of of going room to room that I think he chose that location because of it. And it allowed for the scene to build up. And like, I think that only helps along, like that feeling that an audience is gonna get from it. But no, I mean, like, it just, I don't know, I think both of us pretty proud of being able to help that along, you know?

• 40:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, just one last thing. Richard Shepard isn't amazing. I feel like he's someone who steps into this show as a director, and he feels like he's a film. He's coming at it like a filmmaker. He's trying, he wants to, he wants things to feel cinematic. He wants things to feel complete. He doesn't, it doesn't feel like someone who's just stepping in for a week of a show, which is, he has a very strong point of view. And so I felt very trusting of this process, also knowing there was gonna be with him. I mean, he wanted to rehearse. He wanted to talk about things. He wrote us both before the episode. He was

• 40:41Speaker 05

  really, there's, he just has this fire that really wants things to be great. And it's really nice to be in the hands of someone that you can feel wants something to be great. It's so, he is a great director. And I, whenever his name comes up, I always tell people to go see The Matador, which I think is a really underappreciated movie that he directed with Pierce Brosnan. But you, when you said something really interesting to him about the pressure of that moment, because so much was depending on it, people buying it. And it did make me think, I was semi joking about you guys sort of gaming out the show to ultimately be about you as the stars. But they did create a situation, like Erin created a show in which they, she basically can't break up the central character. And

• 41:23Speaker 05

  so all of the delicious twists and turns that can happen in a longer gestating romance kind of get kicked to you guys in terms of obstacles and steps forward and steps back. And it does seem like there, there's a lot of road ahead for these two characters potentially in the next season or even in seasons to come. I hope so.

• 41:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, I hope so. I mean, it's certainly not solved. I think you could.

• 41:49Speaker 05

  No, you literally dropped her on the ground in the finale.

• 41:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 41:54Speaker 07

  It's, I know, I, again, I'm gonna throw compliments at Justine all the time, like her ability to like, not only have this like intense vulnerability, and like be able to play this sort of like truly like ethereal romantic person, and then also be such like a gifted, gifted comedian, like both physical and like dialogue based comedian, that like the moment where she falls, and she leaves her arm up to be the last thing out of frame is brilliant, like, anyway, I just wanted to derail everything by giving Justine compliments. No, I think by the end of this, yeah, like, the show, I don't want to speak for the writers,

• 42:38Speaker 07

  but it does seem like, yeah, like, the idea of whether or not Noah and Joanne are gonna be together has been solved. And I like that the show still examines that even if you're together, relationships continue to grow and relationships change. And there is drama and interest in that. And, and I like that also at the end of the season, you are, it isn't clear what the path forward is for, for Sasha, for Morgan and Esther individually, much less as any sort of.

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• 44:50Speaker 05

  Puppling that's happening there.

• 44:54Speaker 05

  I have two more very surface questions about the New York episode specifically, but I think you were on to something when you were complimenting Justine. So let's just do one more round of that. Justine, I'm just curious about process and how you approach stuff, because as, as we've alluded to, like, you have been given in the course of the show, some of the more ridiculous things to say, do, and believe. And yet, at every moment, there is an honesty and a humanity to it that is really breathtaking and allows us to like, enjoy season three. And when the mask drops a little bit, and by mask, I mean, the red light mask that you're wearing in one scene. But, you know, I know there's like, there's the basic answer as an actor of like, you know, you play the truth of the character. But I'm wondering about your way into this character in particular, so that

• 45:37Speaker 05

  you are never judging, even if the audience sometimes may, may be judging. Thank you, guys, both of you guys. I feel like this person, Morgan qualities of her do exist in me. I mean, Tim will tell you, I am like, I think the cast decided that I'm the least like my character, but also that there is this kind of chaotic whirlwind, like nuts part of me that I feel Morgan has that I have fun tapping into. It's like the part of me that I kind of tried to like shove deep down under other things as I've

• 46:18Speaker 05

  tried to evolve as a person. So there's, there's a part of me that just loves tapping into the parts of myself that I know are there and that I don't really lean into as a person, because they're absurd, and because they're embarrassing, and because they're a little bit chaotic and out of control. But it allows me not to judge them because they exist in me. Like you said, I mean, I guess that's kind of just a more expansive way of saying what everybody says. But it's true. I do feel like there's, there are parts of Morgan that exist in me that I have fun, a fun time leaning into. I think that the writing is very clear. I feel like I understand from the way that Erin writes

• 47:02Speaker 05

  Morgan, I see, I feel very clearly who she is. I also have done a lot of dipping into the way that those two banter on their podcast as sisters and kind of finding that rapport. But yeah, I don't know, I just, from the beginning, I was like, well, this is fun. Like, why not just lean into the fun and the absurdity? And if you can go far with it, people, on Succession, I kind of learned, I learned a trust in the directors and the trust in the writers to just go for it. And then if I was, like, there was one point where I remember Mark Mylott was like, go for it, go for it, like, just go big, go big. And I went big. And he was like, and bring it back, can we bring it back? I was

• 47:43Speaker 05

  like, I don't even know who you were talking to when you said, go big. But that's like a fun game that I have with myself now, is like, how far can you kind of take it? And just trusting that people pull you back if it's too much, and that there's like fun stuff to mine on the edge of the line where it becomes like stupid or unbelievable or not really good anymore, or not authentic. And, and that there's actually more rope there than a lot of people think there is. And Morgan is so absurd that I just have fun going there with her. And this year, I felt really lucky that I got to go to a different place, which was what's underneath that and the other parts of her that I feel

• 48:27Speaker 05

  like, even the writers, I think maybe sometimes shy away from, because they're like, the natural instinct is to go for the fun with this character. And, and this dynamic between Sasha and Morgan, I think, like, elicited something different that was kind of, like, that couldn't be ignored. And I was so excited that there was like this huge kind of like shift of the dial that shows that there's something way more, you know, even, you know, on the boardwalk, when they're talking about her past and her embarrassment around her ex-relationship, and all the way in through episode eight, there was just so much different stuff than I've ever gotten with this character. And I felt really excited to, to be able

• 49:09Speaker 05

  to show, to be able to show a different side of her, I guess. Yeah. I love that. And I just was working, not very particularly directly, but with Mark Mylott on Harry Potter. And I know that, like, he's incredibly gifted at getting good performances out of the kids, because he makes them like run, jump up and down and scream and shout and get out all the energy and then immediately say action. And I wonder if he learned that from you on Succession. I wonder if there's like a direct. Honestly, not, no, probably not. No. That's really funny. It's it's possible. About the same disposition as an 11 year old. It's like, these tools feel about relevant. I can handle a magic wizard. Like this is this. Oh, my God.

• 49:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, he's the best. He's the best. All of them were the best. It was such a great training ground. Also, watching other watching Matthew McFadden and the things that he was doing as Tom and that there was just a fearlessness of doing things that were just insane and absurd. And God, it's so nice to be around actors that are unafraid of throwing shit out there. And then and then and then having people around them that you can trust to kind of manipulate, maneuver and help like guide the ship, you know? Yeah, Tim, I feel like this is something you guys, I'm sure you've talked about this at length, but you both had incredible experiences working on legendary HBO shows, which is, I'm not trying to apples and orange, the two experiences, but they are fortunate

• 50:39Speaker 05

  in the sense that you're working with people in a very specific like aesthetic with a very specific aesthetic and a sense of freedom and possibility and exploration that now you can bring. And I think that you can sort of see that reflected in the ways that your performances have surprised, you know, and outgrown even the original conceptions of the characters.

• 50:59Speaker 07

  No, I do think that even though the processes of the two shows are very different, like obviously, like, you know, Armando had this rehearsal process that we don't have. And like, you know, that was, it was an incredible thing. But I do think that one of the things that I learned from it was the idea of even if you don't have specifically in a production the time to do that, ripping it apart and putting it all back together and thinking about it from eight different angles and bringing ideas and trying something. And even if, even if it might fail and it might not be funny, or you suggest something and they're like, oh, that's the absolute, yeah, great idea for some other show that isn't

• 51:43Speaker 07

  this one, that that that the amount of times that we were able to do that, I think, has informed everything else moving forward. I think also just in my own confidence of thinking that while I'm not going to like, put a hammer down, that like, my own suggestion, my own voice is a part of this process. It might not be the most important one, but it should be, and it is a part of the process to be able to say, this one bumps against me a little bit. And I think here's the reason why, or I had an idea. And sometimes I'll like, after a table read, I'll even like, go over to Jenny and pitch a joke for another scene, just because I was like, I don't know, this might work and it might

• 52:27Speaker 07

  be funny. I do think that even though the shows are very different, everything that I learned from that has helped in every other job moving forward.

• 52:38Speaker 05

  I do have one last question about the New York episode. And, you know, we were just discussing how the tropes of rom coms are celebrated and expected. And sometimes they beg or believe, like, it can be slightly implausible. But I do need to drill down on the idea that two people, particularly ones such as Tim of a certain age, could have a romantic night after multiple Manhattans and big bowls of cacio pepe. I just like that. I did want to just sort of drill down on that and wonder if anyone brought that up, or if like, you know, did you walk on the high lines, like, kind of work off the carbs? It's just, that was my one real note. I've got to say, Tim, as as someone who has not had a romantic evening with Tim, but has had a long evening with Tim. I can speak to that.

• 53:20Speaker 05

  Multiple, multiple drinks where I'm watching him. And I'm like, when are you going to tank? He is kind of the little engine that could where it just goes on and on and on to the point where I'm like, you've actually got to go to bed. Like, it's time for you to stop talking. I literally have two other friends in my bed and our blankets are up to our noses and we're saying, time to go to bed, Tim. And he'll just be like, let's keep going. Let's keep chatting away. Like, his endurance as as old as he is. Let's be honest. And also the father of twins. Like, it's amazing that this guy can go as hard

• 54:00Speaker 05

  as he can and as long as he can. I mean, yeah, God bless. God bless. I shut it down far before him. I mean, the next morning after the night that we talked about, I had to wake him up to get on our flight and he, A, was in his underwear still. I'm not that. No. And then we get out on the street and I was like, dude, you still smell like wine. And you need to take a long nap. So he knows how to do it when he's like, I guess, I mean, it's not.

• 54:31Speaker 07

  It's not much like the character. I can basically only do it when I'm in New York City. Like, that's the thing. Whenever you land at JFK, you're like, oh, I'm 20 years younger than I actually am.

• 54:46Speaker 05

  That's right. Yeah, it's like calories don't count in airplanes and alcohol doesn't count in Manhattan. I'm the opposite. I'm the opposite. Tim knows. Like, the minute I get to JFK, I'm like, I'm in bed by 7:00 PM. I mean, I'm in bed by 7:00 PM. I'm like, this is my moment to sleep. I've been, I've been with a two year old. Like, I'm going to bed for the whole time. That sounds like a dream. That's right. That's right. I'm in New York right now. And frankly, I'm dozing off. Like, I love talking to you guys, but like, this is. There was one night where Tim came over with like, four other friends to watch a football game. And I was behind them in the bed asleep by like, what would you say, Tim?

• 55:23Speaker 07

  6:30.

• 55:24Speaker 05

  I respect it.

• 55:26Speaker 07

  In in her hotel room, all just like, having old fashioned and watching a football game. And she had fall, she had put on Wuthering Heights on her laptop, and within five minutes was dead asleep. Like, we'd close the door gently behind her.

• 55:42Speaker 05

  This is queen shit. Okay, so let's wrap up on the, I mean, I will also, we can tease season four, we can do any promotional business that our friends at Netflix would like us to do. But there's a really pressing issue that I've saved and I really wanted to, really wanted to bring it up with Justine here. Recently, Tim was a guest on the Jimmy Kimmel Show, you know, which, congratulations, it's wonderful. The clip that they clipped from this was Tim beginning a story by saying, well, Jimmy, my wife and I love to entertain, and we love to have people over for dinner. And let me just tell you, this was news to me and some other members of Tim's more extended Los Angeles social circle. So I'd

• 56:23Speaker 05

  like to know, Justine, if you have been the recipient of this largesse, or if we can appropriately roast him for telling tales out of school in order to get clicks and laughs. I'm invited to his house one time for dinner. One time. One time, don't even go there. There is one time I came over for crudités midday, but that was the only time that I've been invited for dinner. And then he did have a birthday party with a paella event that was like, quite extensive. I got invited to Tim's house to meet him at the door with his dog so we could walk, you know? So I feel like I didn't get the invite into the house. So this was a risky story to tell, Tim.

• 57:01Speaker 07

  It was. And look.

• 57:03Speaker 05

  How was the blowback then?

• 57:05Speaker 07

  The blowback has been severe and widespread.

• 57:08Speaker 05

  Good. And deserved, frankly.

• 57:11Speaker 07

  And deserved. And Andy, we are going to rectify that. I would love for you to come over to the house for dinner. And I would have asked that whether or not.

• 57:20Speaker 05

  I appreciate that. I have to check my schedule. Does Andy know about your watch, your watch club?

• 57:27Speaker 07

  Oh, about the Tuesday movie night?

• 57:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, he entertains a good group of bros to watch obscure. Yeah, I think Tim knows me well enough to know that that's going to be a, thank you so much. Thank you. I'm just having crudités alone and I'm in bed at 6:30 on a Tuesday. So that's actually respectful that I'm not a part of that. That's another side of Tim. That's the big picture guest side of Tim, that I'm okay. Okay. Well, I'm glad we take, I'm glad we figured that out.

• 57:55Speaker 07

  I am going to get both of you guys over to the house with your significant others, and possibly we all do it together, like the three couples. Maybe we mix it all together.

• 58:07Speaker 05

  Wow. Okay. This is all, this is my agenda on all podcast interviews, by the way, is just dinner invites. It's classy. You guys have been renewed for season four. It's very exciting. Where are you in the process? And how exciting is it to know that not only will you get to continue to tell the story, but you'll get to continue to tell the story within like, an easy commute from your homes? Oh, God, it is really, I had my first job away from home this year, like away from LA this year. And it's, it is just invaluable that we get to drive truly, my drive is 12 minutes. It is unbelievable. I'm so lucky. I feel like, on top of that, we have Kristen Bell kind of manning the ship of we're done quite early. Like, this woman wants to be

• 58:51Speaker 05

  home, putting her kids to bed. And so everyone's kind of like, at their homes by 7:00 PM most nights. It's a dream. It's a dream. It's kind of, you can't, don't you, don't you think, Tim, it doesn't get better than that?

• 59:06Speaker 07

  I mean, it's incredible. I think, you know, fortunately and unfortunately, most of my experiences up until this point, I guess, the last three seasons of Veep were shot in LA. But a lot of stuff you have, okay, sorry.

• 59:21Speaker 05

  Considering that Veep was like, your first job, what are you talking about?

• 59:26Speaker 07

  I've had to leave town a lot. I've had to leave town a lot. And weighing the two against one another. Yeah, boo fucking who. Weighing the two against one another. Yes, I will absolutely err on the side of shooting close to home. I mean, it's incredible. I also think that there's like, the, the beautiful thing of that, like, the crews here are the best in the world. And, and this is no shot at other cities, but this is, this is the town where everybody moved to to do this because they're great at it. And I love that the crews here are incredible. And so to not only have us be able to work close to home, but be able to have crews work close to home. And then there is that other thing of like, I don't love it.

• 1:00:11Speaker 05

  Let's just say crews work, because it's not like they move crews to other cities that often. I mean, like, I'm just like, so happy that they get to work. Like, you talk to our crew and they're like, they don't have jobs in between seasons. Like, it's, they're so, yeah, it's so nice to be like, oh, yay, our crews get to a job.

• 1:00:28Speaker 07

  And then there's this other thing of that it frustrates me sometimes when I hear people who might be able to put their thumb on the scale complaining about Los Angeles. It's like, oh, my favorite restaurant closed. And it's like, I don't know, you're the one that sent all the work to a different country. So if you want the restaurants to stay open, the crew has to be able to eat there. Like, that's a big part of the ecosystem out here. So I just, I think there are so many incredible things about it. And even beyond just like working close to home, working with Kristen and Adam and Justine and Jackie, like, like the ensemble is very, is incredible. And the idea of being able to jump back into scenes with those guys is, it's like, I'm really looking forward to it.

• 1:01:13Speaker 05

  Have you been invited into the writers' room yet to make your case for the season? Not yet.

• 1:01:18Speaker 07

  No, they're open and they've been working for a couple of months, I think. But it's getting close.

• 1:01:23Speaker 05

  They're not going to have us in this year. Maybe this is the year that they've had enough.

• 1:01:27Speaker 07

  Yeah, quite possibly.

• 1:01:29Speaker 05

  At least of one of you. And I think we all know which one. Honestly, I think you might be wrong about which one you think it is. It's good. Good to be surprised. I cannot thank you both enough. Congratulations on this season and on the success of the show. Wonderful to have you, Justine. Totally fine to have you, Tim.

• 1:01:48Speaker 07

  Thank you, Andrew.

• 1:01:50Speaker 05

  We'll have you again soon. But congratulations. Thanks for joining me.

• 1:02:01Speaker 04

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