‘Star Wars’ Announces Another Chapter of the Skywalker Saga. Plus, ‘Lioness’ Season 3 Finale With Van Lathan.

Chris and Andy talk about Jon Watts directing the next ‘Star Wars’ film, which will be the next chapter in the Skywalker saga (2:19). Then they discuss ‘Lanterns’ Episode 7 (14:41). Later, Chris is joined by Van Lathan to break down the ‘Lioness’ Season 3 finale and look back at the season as a whole (36:56). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Van Lathan Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Trevor Rabone Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Speaker 03

  I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 1:11Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the Ringer.com. And joining me on the other line, he will conclude his hat ceremony at the end of this podcast, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:28Andy Greenwald?

  Dude, I'm having flashbacks. This is how we started the pod.

• 1:30Chris Ryan?

  I know. One guy in New York City, another guy in Los Angeles, talking about TV and pop culture. And, you know, it's, it's another year. It's, we each got some different mayors, but it's okay.

• 1:46Andy Greenwald?

  I'm happy where I am for that.

• 1:48Chris Ryan?

  Have you taken any free buses in New York City yet?

• 1:52Andy Greenwald?

  I haven't, but I did consider buying a iHeartNY t-shirt for my daughter, but the heart is Zorong's face. And when I say for my daughter, I mean for myself. So it's, it's in play. It's in play. But no, it's been, it's been quite a, what's the opposite of pleasant? Rough landing.

• 2:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:11Andy Greenwald?

  Cause I moved out of the city 10 years ago. And then, and then I came just in time to get like a sick ass cold and have a sick ass nor'easter and I'm back, baby. I'm all, I'm all grim and grumpy.

• 2:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Andy's doing a little bit of work in New York City, but that doesn't mean that The Watch misses a beat, right? His dedication to this podcast and really his dedication to the larger project of television as a lens through which we view modern life. It's like, it's like Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail, man. You just gotta keep, keep walking the invisible bridge.

• 2:42Andy Greenwald?

  Wow. Yeah, that's how I felt this weekend when I was looking for a way to cross Flatbush without drenching myself. Yeah.

• 2:49Chris Ryan?

  I'm going to be joined by Van Lathan later where we talk extensively about the third season of Lions, including the last two episodes, which we hadn't gotten a chance to catch up on. Have you finished your, your Lions rewatch yet?

• 3:03Andy Greenwald?

  Try not to look too excited about that segment.

• 3:05Chris Ryan?

  We did talk about a lot of stuff, a lot of topics.

• 3:11Chris Ryan?

  But I'm, I'm more excited than ever to talk to you because we have Star Wars news and we have an episode of Lanterns that I really want to break down. The first thing I wanted to mention with this Star Wars stuff, Andy, is over the weekend it broke that John Watts has signed on to direct the first film in what is rumored to be the next trilogy in the Skywalker saga. So Star Wars is just, they just can't quit those crazy Skywalkers. And Simon Kinberg has been working on this project since, I think, 2018. It is being reported that Daisy Ridley will return to play Rey. So obviously John Watts has done work with the larger Disney corporation before in his, you know, Spider-Man efforts.

• 3:53Chris Ryan?

  And Simon Kinberg has fingerprints on multiple superhero properties. This is interesting to me, but I was curious whether or not it was surprising to you. I mean, I think, I think for me, like, it's always fascinating to see, like, companies sort of decide, we're not interested in bringing in Denis Villeneuve to do this. We are not interested in having Jeremy Sonnier or Zach Krieger or Kao Zhao or whoever. Like, it is becoming more of a studio system. And if, more now than ever even before. What's your reaction to this news?

• 4:33Andy Greenwald?

  For a business side of it, you know, there aren't that many safe hands in which to entrust something that is, let's be frank, quite compromised goods at this point. The larger Star Wars franchise has fallen into such disrepair that we have basically already agreed to memory hole Mandalorian and Grogu, that that was the first Star Wars movie in theaters in six years, seven years?

• 4:58Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 4:58Andy Greenwald?

  So the, the absolute retrenchment to not only a place of, we are just going to go back to making trilogies, we are back in the Skywalker business, which I can say as someone who worked on what may have been the next movie at one point with, with Lanterns, writers, producers, Damon Lindelof and Justin Britt Gibson, that was not meant to be episode 10. That was one of the mandates. That was not what was going to be the next thing. So to have gone so far back to just like Skywalker's slop, but also the fact that like they are so worried. And so it is such an existential decision about, will we ever get to do this again if we get this wrong?

• 5:39Andy Greenwald?

  You understand why they went to one of the very few A-list reliable producers of billion-dollar grossing content. And I say that, that's intended to be completely agnostic about the artistic and creative abilities of Simon Kinberg and John Watts.

• 5:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:54Andy Greenwald?

  Who I think are both smart, thoughtful, talented guys. It's more that the, the, the talent pool they were looking at was clearly a lot smaller than we thought. And so this is in some ways where it inevitably was going to end up.

• 6:05Chris Ryan?

  I think that the most important thing in terms of the creative storytelling here is that they just don't do the same blueprint as the previous three sequels and the original three films. So the prequels aside, if they tell another tortured, young prodigy comes of age, is thrown into a intergalactic battle between good and evil represented by a rebellion and an evil, like an evil empire and blows up a big space station in the process. I just, I think people will quit wholesale like midway through.

• 6:41Andy Greenwald?

  I'm excited to tell you, I don't think they're going to do that. Have you ever heard of a storyline that could be referred to as like a lone wolf and cub?

• 6:49Andy Greenwald?

  What if I were to tell you that there's kind of a special kid?

• 6:52Chris Ryan?

  So Rey finds like a little kid and tutors him in the ways of the Force. That would probably be number two in my least interested in Star Wars draft. But yeah, as a Disney story, I think it's notable that Sean Levy, who is the director of the next Star Wars film, Starfighter, which is coming out, I believe next year with Ryan Gosling, has left Netflix for an overall at Disney. And is, they are obviously, whatever they learn from the Kathy Kennedy era of Lorne Miller on solo, then getting fired and Colin Trevorrow and leaving and Abrams coming on for Rise of Skywalker and everything that happened.

• 7:33Chris Ryan?

  And even going back to Tony Gilroy taking over Rogue One, that chaos was the sort of norm there. Clearly what they want is a solid floor from which to work from. And yeah, I mean, like, are these films going to be nominated for Best Picture? Highly unlikely.

• 7:52Andy Greenwald?

  Charitably, I think that is the, the healthiest way to look at it. That if you, again, this is not my normal position to consider these issues, but if you were going to be sitting in Josh Demaro's chair, the era in which you quote unquote, took the meeting. And we know that Kathy Kennedy took a wild, wild assortment of meetings from, that some of which, you know, it got, got closer to the altar than I think we even realized. Whether it was the Steven Soderbergh, Ben, Ben Solo movie, or the meetings with David Fincher that were, I think, a lot more substantive than had been previously reported. Vince Gilligan. What do you have to show for that? I think you could make the pretty bottom line case that they have very little to show

• 8:34Andy Greenwald?

  for it and a lot of, you know, a lot of wasted time and probably a lot of wasted development money. So they have decided they aren't going to do that. They have decided to say like, we can do our best to future-proof this franchise by hiring one guy to make another trilogy, which is what people expect from this. And then, and then here we go. Now, I will say, as someone who once was, who has a recent experience, being someone who's like, you know, what we need here is a safe, steady pair of hands.

• 9:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:00Andy Greenwald?

  Just to get us through this next transitional period to prove that we can restore normalcy.

• 9:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:05Andy Greenwald?

  That is why I was a big Joe Biden guy in 2020. And we all know how that turned out. So I'm just saying that, you know, what makes sense in the moment might not make sense long-term. And then we can pivot to the fact that like, I find the fact that they're going to make a Skywalker story like really dispiriting because the inevitable drift back towards Skywalkers has been not only diminishing returns, it's been outright putrid since when? Since Luke showed up on Mando, since that awful end to that next trilogy. You could even say that, you know, that George Lucas's trilogy, which has had a lot of like, you know, after the fact, kind of rose colored glasses on it. It's certainly not inspiring, but how many podcasts are we are we going to do where we're

• 9:50Andy Greenwald?

  like, we're not sure we're inspired by this latest business decision by the Walt Disney Corporation?

• 9:55Chris Ryan?

  There is no limit. How many do you want to do? Do you know, do you want me to start skipping Star Wars news?

• 10:01Andy Greenwald?

  Definitely not. Look at us, we're cooking.

• 10:03Chris Ryan?

  Do you want to start talking about whether or not like Zoe Kazan has like their safest pair of hands for East of Eden? Like, I'm happy to do whatever you want.

• 10:10Andy Greenwald?

  No, no.

• 10:12Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk about lanterns, because this is the

• 10:17Andy Greenwald?

  Wait, wait, hold on. This is you play into the middle again. I noticed you haven't weighed in on your feelings about the John Watts Star Wars trilogy that is now in the offing.

• 10:27Chris Ryan?

  I did. I mean, I just, whether or not it's Skywalker's, it can't be the same Skywalker story. It can't be about someone being raised to be the prince who was promised and save the galaxy. If it can take anything, anything from the and or experience of, there are so many different ways to skin this cat, with all respect to cats. Like, you can look at it from so many different ways, and you can bring in so many different aspects of people's real lived experiences in their lives and like, start talking about that. It doesn't always have to be the same story over and over again. They've shown, in some ways, some discipline in not continually pumping out movies that

• 11:10Chris Ryan?

  are like, basically Fast and the Furious 11, and you're just like, here's a hologram of Luke fighting with Yoda against like, Palpatine who's died four times. You can, you can make a good Star Wars movie, you can make a good Star Wars story, you just have to have the courage of your convictions, but it's hard to like, evaluate it until, I think the Skywalker stuff is nerve wracking, but it's like, we'll see, the first time we get a logline, we'll know.

• 11:37Andy Greenwald?

  Do all Star Wars projects have to inevitably be about Star Wars, about either remaking or undoing what just came before? Is it, is it just locked forever in this like, almost meta textual relationship with itself? Or, as you said, Kennerberg's been working on this for a number of years already, did they give him time and space to crack a story that might be interesting in and of itself? That might be a worthwhile rip-roaring space adventure that is just not so completely self-referential that it drowns? I would hope that that's the case. The only other thing that I would note, and I, you know, you know, I like to be rigorous in terms of like, my internet research, because every time I, you know, Google Gemini something, I just know that that is exactly accurate. But I will say-

• 12:22Chris Ryan?

  A big Gemini shout there from you.

• 12:24Andy Greenwald?

  One of the, look, I'm getting alternate funding-

• 12:28Chris Ryan?

  Didn't know you were Team Gem. Go ahead, go ahead, yeah. Gemini-

• 12:32Andy Greenwald?

  I'm a Taurus, I could never be-

• 12:34Chris Ryan?

  What should I think of this, this Kennerberg trilogy Gemini?

• 12:37Andy Greenwald?

  I just want to say that I don't understand where this comes from, and I can't imagine that it's genuine or not bot farming, but John Watts is not loved by the fandom community, which I don't understand where that came from.

• 12:51Chris Ryan?

  I do think it's bots.

• 12:52Andy Greenwald?

  But is that like, I don't think that Destin Daniel Cretin is funding it. Like, it's just bizarre that like, concurrent with Brand New Day, Excitement, and like, Zendaya, Tom Holland, Mary Jane-

• 13:02Chris Ryan?

  I know, there'll be tweets that are like, John Watts should be in, in like, they should reopen Alcatraz for John Watts for what he did.

• 13:10Andy Greenwald?

  He should be in cinema jail for the way that he kept us from seeing, in the moment, we all loved those movies. And so I don't really understand what that's about, but I'm curious-

• 13:21Chris Ryan?

  I'm very suspicious now of any wave of like, I'm getting so many Slow Horses edits right now. I mean, I just need to not be on any of these platforms, but so many of like-

• 13:32Andy Greenwald?

  Be accurate.

• 13:33Chris Ryan?

  Look at River, look at Sid, 18 shots of like, and I'm like, who made this? Why is this on my feed? This person has no posts other than Slow Horses posts.

• 13:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 13:44Chris Ryan?

  And you're just like, this is somewhere like, a lonely PC running Gemini is just making Slow Horses edits.

• 13:53Andy Greenwald?

  I will say that a worrying amount of my daughter's YouTube consumption is fan edits. Like, that is a major plank of her media platform, the same way that like, my father read The New Republic and The New Yorker. You know, she's like, here's some Zendaya edits for like, a good hour of every night just to see how the other side is representing things. So, we're clearly on the back foot with that one.

• 14:14Chris Ryan?

  Hey, before we go to lanterns, I was just curious, like, have you been like, watching, have you been keeping up Slow Horses? Have you been keeping up on Youth? Like, are you, are you avidly watching TV on this trip, or just your assigned reading?

• 14:26Andy Greenwald?

  I've too, I've been too busy to do much television watching, but I am going to keep up with those shows because I really like them. Is Slow Horses, is the third episode up yet? Have we, can we talk about it Thursday?

• 14:37Chris Ryan?

  We can talk about it on Thursday.

• 14:39Andy Greenwald?

  Let's talk about it on Thursday. Youth, I believe I missed the third episode last night, but I know you and Joanna talked about it, so I don't want to be overly redundant.

• 14:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, no, I was just curious how, that was more of a personal check-in than it is a professional, like, curiosity.

• 14:51Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, thank you.

• 14:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I was just like, does-

• 14:53Andy Greenwald?

  I have to say, if you want the truth, I have been, I have found that the jet lag in general, like, work stress related insomnia has been alleviated by the second half of the second season of The Paper, so maybe I was a little quick to judge it. Because it has been a very, it's like a very gentle, kind of like, I'm enjoying it just enough, that I don't mind if I fall asleep, which is a genre of television that like, if Sam Smail still listens to this pod, he just did the, the Mourinho, like, ripping his headphones off when I said that. But I do think it's an important unrecognized genre.

• 15:22Chris Ryan?

  I feel that way about horror movies set on snow mount, like snowy mountains.

• 15:27Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 15:28Chris Ryan?

  Like, any horror in the snow right now, no, I'm like, that just lulls me right to sleep in a really beautiful way. Like, if a killer-

• 15:36Andy Greenwald?

  I can't wait for your visit to the East Coast later. If the weather turns, you're going to be prime picking.

• 15:40Chris Ryan?

  Lanterns, episode seven, written by Damon Lindelof and Tom King. I believe this one was called The Jordan Boys Legacy? The Jordan Boys Legacy. And, uh, let's get right into it, man. I thought this was a very well-done episode of TV. You basically can start with the Hal flashback and Jordan family being as complicated as the Stewart family. We could talk about Jon Stewart, True Detective. I have a lot to say about Noah's offensive line, and there-

• 16:14Andy Greenwald?

  As do I, that was my, that was my first, I texted you about that, I was so worked up.

• 16:18Chris Ryan?

  I was pretty close to breaking the seal and texting Damon and being like, come on, doc. There's no way this kid's going to Michigan with that line.

• 16:26Andy Greenwald?

  I would just say that he would be, he would spend most of the season in the fencing position, if those were the guys who were guarding him.

• 16:34Chris Ryan?

  And then this sort of prolonged what felt like a dream sequence, but was in fact Anton's planet that Sinestro had been trapped on. So where would you like to start?

• 16:46Andy Greenwald?

  This episode joins episode two for me, as being the, in some ways, the best expression of what I think is the best outcome for lanterns, which is, which is a really, really successful and still surprising marriage between the shoe leather, procedural, good, high elite television bones that exist in that writer's room, and the absolutely holy shit mindfuck of, yes, in this storage locker in Nebraska is a portable hole into another dimensional planet.

• 17:26Andy Greenwald?

  Like, it, it straddled that line so nimbly that it felt like it was working in a genre that has existed for many years, when in fact it hasn't. So, for that reason, I didn't feel like it was an episode that, you know, was sometimes at war with itself, or with its own conceit, as some of the previous ones have been. I don't know if that means this is like, I'm not trying to lay down a marker and say this was the best episode of the season, I just felt like it captured some of that unique magic that to me is the best path forward for a show that I am really enjoying.

• 17:56Chris Ryan?

  I think we're getting the payoff from some of the stretching that they do with the narrative, and some of the pretzels that they bend themselves into, in that writer's room, to give us multiple timelines, to do jumping around different people's POV from their childhoods, to show backstories and show flashbacks, and give us all these little slices of life. Because now, the cumulative effect is, it's really cool to have seen this many different Jon Stewarts in just seven hours of television. And now that we have what I think is being affectionately described as the hologram,

• 18:36Chris Ryan?

  who's basically a character on the show now, it's cool to see Kyle Chandler get to do, you know, grumpy old man, cocky young pilot, nice version of himself, you know? And the same goes for Kelly McDonald. You know, this is a show that probably had a extinction level event a little early in its season, you know, with losing Garrett Dillon Hunt, losing Paul Ben Victor, losing a lot of like, these kind of counterweights that the show had had, to say nothing of Zoe. And now it's kind of like-

• 19:11Andy Greenwald?

  He's going to say Zoe Erasure.

• 19:12Chris Ryan?

  No, no, and it wasn't even trying to, it's just more-

• 19:16Chris Ryan?

  I guess in the aftermath of that, it really cleared out space for these two characters to push into fully developed lead roles rather than just chasing mysteries.

• 19:27Andy Greenwald?

  I've never seen a show do this with how it uses the time that it has. And we were joking a few weeks ago about that concept of a surf Dracula and how all modern television shows have to tell the origin story of the thing that you think you're watching the television show for. And that joke, that was just a joke tweet, but it was in reference to the fact that, oh, no, this is a show about Jon Stewart, Green Lantern, but he's not going to get the ring until the end of the season or season two. As it turns out, the real surf Dracula was the friends we made along the way. No, the real surf Dracula was the buddy cop dynamic between this Hal and this John, that I think when we first heard the logline, I thought we were getting from the beginning.

• 20:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 20:13Andy Greenwald?

  I thought that the basis of the show was going to, the premise of the show is going to rest on whatever chemistry could be created between Aaron Pierre and Kyle Chandler. Instead, what they did, and it's really surprising, and I think maybe ultimately successful, is they kind of revved the car backwards for a while. So you could see tons of friction. You could see it across time that it would take Jon Stewart a lot more growth to reach a place of acceptance and also wit and humor and life. And the payoff frankly felt earned to me. I mean, I was thrilled with the way they were interacting and emoting and being more honest with each other. And I was like, well, this is a dynamic that this can go. Like this has, this has real range on it.

• 20:53Chris Ryan?

  This show has gotten, I think there's been a couple of moments. I was fairly confident that when Zoe got zeroed out by that satellite, that that was not the end of Zoe. And I was fairly confident when, you know, we first see Hal dead at the end of episode one, that we were going to see a lot more of Hal. But it's had a lot of fun extrapolating and doing yes and with its, with its hospital ball narratives that they throw where they're just like, this may work, or this may put a guy in the emergency room. And I guess my example from this episode, what would be that, that dimensional portal that they

• 21:33Chris Ryan?

  find in a storage locker that you mentioned, because you can really live or die on what's on the other side of that portal. And I was like, oh, that's where the money went. You know what I mean? Like, that looks really cool. This is a very interesting idea for not only an alien world, but a fate of a people. You know, this idea that they were leaping off of this sky city because of the toxic gases that the Manhunter had released there, and that those same gases were still present and were affecting, were affecting

• 22:09Chris Ryan?

  John. And the, you know, the imagery and the, the reappearance of, of John's father worked within the context of that story, that there was like some sort of hallucination going on. And what he, what he needed to do when he got to the other side of this, of this lake and got to Sinestro, I thought all of it really, really fit together really well.

• 22:36Andy Greenwald?

  First off, that planet had big Wormier vibes. You know, I don't know if you remember, that's where the, I believe it was the soul stone was located, where the red skull, you know, tempted Clinton, Natasha, you know, it was some real, you know, I know that storyline has meant a lot to you.

• 22:52Chris Ryan?

  I think the Agents of Shield are outside of your door right now.

• 22:56Andy Greenwald?

  I'm just saying. No, look, like, we've been overly crediting our friend Damon with some of the bolder ideas. And I, again, I have no idea who generated the way that this place would look, or that this was Anton's home planet, or that the city was in the sky and the orientation of the world is something that John didn't understand. But that is a pure comic book idea in the best way. That is a Grant Morrison idea, that is a Tom King idea, that is an Al Ewing idea, that is a like, what can we do to be as big and bold as possible? And so that even the words that they're saying, you can laugh, they can laugh at themselves as they're saying them. You know, there's an Einstein Rosen,

• 23:36Andy Greenwald?

  whatever that is, sludge hole inside of this, like, whatever. You're laughing with a giddiness of like, childlike invention and discovery, and I loved it. And I loved the, I loved the way it was featured, I loved how it was explained. And then, you know, again, it's the not necessarily glamorous work in a TV show of how can we use this decision, this big, bold decision, as a vehicle for backstory, as a vehicle for emotional check-ins, you know? And so it's the crazy making gas that gives John visions and Hal saves him and his father's back. And it's like, it's the kind of thing where you can kind of hum along to the melody, even though the setting is so specific and so weird. And again, I don't mind that. I just think it's a really interesting collision of, of, of high minded invention

• 24:19Andy Greenwald?

  and kind of day to day practicality that when the show works, it just, it just works. Or as the guys at the jeans store I was in yesterday said, it's Lantern Sunday. It's Lantern Sunday. And I was like.

• 24:32Chris Ryan?

  Were they saying that knowing that that was your profession was to, some of your profession was to talk about lanterns?

• 24:38Andy Greenwald?

  Seen, I Kool-Aid manned out of the dressing room to be like, actually, tonight's episode is pretty good, guys.

• 24:44Chris Ryan?

  Oh, did you let him know you saw it already? And what was the reaction?

• 24:47Andy Greenwald?

  I just wanted to like.

• 24:49Chris Ryan?

  They were like, sir, those jeans are free.

• 24:52Andy Greenwald?

  They were like, sir, please button the jeans before you emerge. Might I suggest a 31 waist instead? Those seem a little, yeah. No, but I, I was kind of into the fact that these are, these guys, I don't need to call them arbiters of cool. They were pretty cool dudes, but like, that it had, this show had reached some sort of like, cultural velocity for them that they were looking forward to it.

• 25:15Chris Ryan?

  That's cool. Yeah. There's a couple of notes I want to hit here as terms of getting ready for the finale. But before we do, I do want to talk about the Noah hat selection scene. So.

• 25:25Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 25:28Chris Ryan?

  Either this is a grave oversight in casting, and that, like, they were shooting it, let's say, I think they had a California tax credit for this one, right? So they were shooting it here?

• 25:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, they did.

• 25:39Chris Ryan?

  What, were they like, these, these five guys who earlier in the day were like, trying out for Sterling Point, season two or something? But like, yeah, in a pinch, we can use them as Noah's offensive line. Noah would have 250 pound offensive lineman. If, if he's about that life, if he is the savior of Rushville, he is emerging out of Nebraska. I mean, he's essentially Dylan Raola, you know, where like, he's, oh, actually, I think Dylan Raola wanted to go into school in Florida. Like, if he has stayed home to

• 26:15Chris Ryan?

  be this, this dude, he has got protectors. He has got bodyguards. He does not have three Jordan Catalanos looking to like, duck any smoke from opposing D lines. Also, this is a team historically that has occasionally faced aliens. Am I right? Like, like, there's been a lot of drama around this program, you know, over the years.

• 26:45Andy Greenwald?

  Well, now, now, hold on. Maybe that's interesting. Maybe his original, like, low center of gravity, you know, like, like five Willie Lampkins in front of him, maybe after the shenanigans a few years ago.

• 26:57Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 26:58Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I guess it was 10 years ago. So it's not like they're, I was gonna say, wait, so I'm pitching you something where they were in their 10th red shirt season. And they're just like, we just got to protect him.

• 27:08Chris Ryan?

  The NCAA is basically like, you know, giving everybody a free, free pass. It was during COVID, we can't understand it.

• 27:15Andy Greenwald?

  Doesn't count. They have more high school eligibility.

• 27:18Chris Ryan?

  Let's keep turning it out, Jambo, it's another year.

• 27:20Andy Greenwald?

  I just think it doesn't work like that. Like, they would, people would move to this town if he was the chosen one, right? To like, protect him and to ride in his coattails and get a, get a D1 scholarship.

• 27:31Chris Ryan?

  It's also an interesting collection of schools that he's, he's musing over, like, because I think it's Navy, Michigan, and Nebraska. But he does want to be the president, which he mentioned, I believe, previous episode, which definitely tells me that he is a Manhunter.

• 27:45Andy Greenwald?

  Does Navy have a lot of NIL money? Like, in the Trump era?

• 27:49Chris Ryan?

  You literally go to Navy to be a president. Yeah. No.

• 27:53Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 27:53Chris Ryan?

  I guess, yeah, actually, that's true. If it's 2026 and Trump's moving a lot of Bitcoin around, perhaps Navy could get in the.

• 28:02Andy Greenwald?

  I'm saying.

• 28:03Chris Ryan?

  They could go get Camario from Mississippi State, but.

• 28:07Andy Greenwald?

  Are there, you're watching, by the way, you're watching way too much college football on these weekends.

• 28:11Chris Ryan?

  It was on.

• 28:14Andy Greenwald?

  How many great statesmen and presidents have emerged?

• 28:17Chris Ryan?

  Don't judge me for my hobbies. Okay? Like, I don't, I don't like that. You've done it twice recently. And I am very supportive of you.

• 28:26Andy Greenwald?

  It's not judgment. It's, I'm just looking at you with, with, with wonder and a tinge of jealousy over your wide open skies. You know what I mean? Like, you just have ability, you have time to watch these things and to get pretty familiar with some of the players. Wait, I had a question for you, though.

• 28:42Chris Ryan?

  Andy, you'll be like, did you see Willie Lampkin went to Chili's on Wednesday night and ordered the like appetizer platter? Like, you know so much about.

• 28:51Andy Greenwald?

  But do you know when I learned that? That's when I leave the writers room and glance at my phone while walking to the bathroom. I can learn everything about what Willie Lampkin did that day at practice. I don't know what actually happens in the games. I wanted to ask you, though, how many great statesmen were, were hurricanes? You know what I mean? Like, does the University of Miami traditionally offer a path to power?

• 29:13Chris Ryan?

  You know what? You say that, but I do think, I do think one of, I think like, Ken Walsh or somebody, something was like a congressman. I don't know if I agreed with his political ideology. But.

• 29:24Andy Greenwald?

  Right. I guess in the sense of like, you know, important Senator Tommy Tuberville, I guess anybody can be anything. So.

• 29:30Chris Ryan?

  You know, I'm thinking back on some historic Canes teams and, and.

• 29:34Andy Greenwald?

  This is what I'm saying.

• 29:35Chris Ryan?

  It was a rich, rich fertile land for the people to be picking US senators. I mean, Clinton Portis, Willis McGahey, you know?

• 29:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 29:45Chris Ryan?

  Andre Johnson, like, plenty, plenty of guys I would have loved to have saluted.

• 29:50Andy Greenwald?

  You would have canvassed for, you would have, you would have been, you would have been a bundler. Yeah, I do think that is a massive oversight. And again, it's a sign that you're, you, you offered your, your services to the wider Hollywood creative community years ago as just the sports consultant. Like, these are the guys in your pickup game in the prison scene in Mr. Robot. Like, let's, I've got notes. And so similarly, like, I just want to know what kind of offense they're running with these windmills in front of him.

• 30:20Chris Ryan?

  I think he's running spread. I think he's running spread. Because I think the idea is that Noah is like a kind of Jackson Dart, maybe a little bit more upstairs, but like, a Jackson Dart style TV.

• 30:34Andy Greenwald?

  But I, but I think that runs counter to what he may be, Chris, which is a, a manhunter style QB in which you just methodically locate the weakest link in the defense and pick on it, right? Isn't that what a manhunter does when he or she arrives in a town?

• 30:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:48Andy Greenwald?

  So it's like, it would basically be like, you know, locating who a Dory Jackson was covering on last year's Eagles. You know what I mean? No disrespect. I'm just saying.

• 30:58Chris Ryan?

  How about?

• 30:58Andy Greenwald?

  I'm just trying to make it make sense.

• 31:00Chris Ryan?

  I send you off with some questions that need answers heading into the finale, or, or I hope that we have these answered when we get out of the finale. Who killed Hal Jordan? Do you have a clubhouse favorite? Obviously, Hologram is worried about Carrie.

• 31:13Andy Greenwald?

  I thought that was an interesting steer.

• 31:16Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 31:17Andy Greenwald?

  But probably because it became a plot point that was then walked back slightly with the suggestion that maybe the hologram said that because he was avoiding what the darker secret that might be underneath it, which that it was suicide. I think it's probably safe to say that those were red herrings. If your theory about Noah being a mini manhunter is right, then it may have been him.

• 31:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that's in, that's in the mix. And maybe that's the echoes that Hologram was feeling from Carrie was like, it's the right family. It's the wrong person. Second question, why was Sinestro stuck on Anton's planet? Who put him there and how do you get out of jail?

• 31:58Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I think, again, that was the red skull on, on Vormir. You know, I, I feel like you should re-watch. I know Endgame is in theaters now, so I feel like you could probably check it out and get that vibe.

• 32:09Chris Ryan?

  And Florida games, I went to Endgame in theaters two times this weekend, so.

• 32:13Andy Greenwald?

  We all choose to do the work that we have in front of us in our own way.

• 32:17Chris Ryan?

  I did, I did see primetime this weekend.

• 32:19Andy Greenwald?

  I, I'm jealous of that. We're not talking about it because I don't want to spoil.

• 32:23Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 32:24Andy Greenwald?

  You can do it on the other parts of the podcast.

• 32:28Andy Greenwald?

  What? I heard he broke up a child sex thing. It all worked out. And he got renewed. I, I am, this is a question I even don't want to speculate on because I love it. Because I am just excited about the way the show has used Sinestro thus far as a supervillain, but as someone haunting it, maybe attempting to Machiavellian style, Machiavelli style, like, control things. But I was also curious, is he just addled? Was he not looking? Could he not see through his beggars robes that he was grabbing Hal Jordan? You know, because I think that that's, that's his, that's his son, kind of. So I'm curious about what he thought was happening. That's the Jordan boy's legacy. He's a distinctive musk.

• 33:10Chris Ryan?

  Here is a question I need an answer to, because I need to see whether or not this was a pointless distraction or not. What's up with this waitress and her blackmail? And I should say, survivor of, of the siege of Rushville, like, but I thought it was weird that John was just like, yeah, for sure. Let me go get you 300 grand. And.

• 33:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. And then he gets the approval. He gets the voice note. He gets it.

• 33:37Chris Ryan?

  And I.

• 33:38Andy Greenwald?

  He's more, he's more liquid than I thought, honestly.

• 33:40Chris Ryan?

  I think the reason why, I just don't find like, her being like, I'll tell Sheriff Carrie that you punched Hal Jordan in the nose to be like, so what? Like, we've all done some things and seen some things. So I want to see where this leads because otherwise it feels like a kind of pointless red herring.

• 33:56Andy Greenwald?

  Can I ask you a question? What is the number? Because you and I are only children, as we know. So, but in a way, we are, we are brothers to each other. I'd like to think.

• 34:06Chris Ryan?

  It's really nice.

• 34:06Andy Greenwald?

  I call you from New York and say, listen, don't ask questions, but I need X amount of money wired to me in the next 24 hours. And his brother is just like, I'll think about it and hangs up on, which is, I think is a fair response. But then he does come down on the side of, okay.

• 34:27Chris Ryan?

  Well, you're asking two different things.

• 34:28Andy Greenwald?

  What is the number?

• 34:28Chris Ryan?

  I think John, that's John's money. Apparently, a fabulously successful architecture firm, if they have 300K and liquidity to sitting around. Are you asking?

• 34:39Andy Greenwald?

  If their, if their 2026 is the same as ours, I think that there is a, it is a boom time for panic basements.

• 34:45Chris Ryan?

  Right. And so if your question is, is there a watch slush fund that I can wire you money from? The answer is no. If the question is, will I send you my personal wealth to, to bail you out of some situation that you are not explaining?

• 35:01Andy Greenwald?

  Situation.

• 35:02Chris Ryan?

  Because I have a, a bad feeling that I would send you this money and then you'd be like posting pictures from the Delta One Lounge, you know, like.

• 35:09Andy Greenwald?

  I wouldn't post, I don't post the pictures, but I do send you some live looks.

• 35:14Chris Ryan?

  I would, I would, I would, I would write, I would cut the check. You know, I would cut the check.

• 35:18Andy Greenwald?

  I appreciate that. You're also famously liquid. So I think that you'd be the guy I'd call. I do question if there's not a slush fund, because all I know is I started working in New York and then Kaia mailed me these just like crispy new microphones. I got a ring light the size of Saturn in here. Like, I think that we have more at our fingertips than I believed possible. So we should, we should investigate that.

• 35:38Chris Ryan?

  Are the Manhunters really extinct? This kind of, you know, this has been a, a running conversation over the course of the season is that Zoe was not the last one. Is Hal really dead? Like, the Hal? It, it strikes me that it would be difficult to write Kyle Chandler off this show, if they were going to do more seasons of it, you know?

• 35:56Andy Greenwald?

  No way. I do think that it just as a appreciation for what has been a really surprising and, and I think unique journey of a first season of a show that, as we've said many times, had so many different mouths to feed. I think it's worth appreciating that, should the show return, which I think it is likely to do, is likely to do, certainly the characters will return in the larger Gunverse. And I think Aaron Pierre is officially in the Superman sequel. It's worth just noting that this might be our last go around with this flavor of Lanterns.

• 36:29Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 36:30Andy Greenwald?

  Which isn't to say it wouldn't be good going forward. It, it might retain the core cast. It might retain the same sort of relationship to the larger DCU. But I think, you know, the odds of this power trio running the show and really wrestling with what it would mean to take the time to introduce characters in this way. I think I, I would be surprised if a second season even attempted to do that.

• 36:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, just because of the amount of firepower that they had in that room.

• 36:55Andy Greenwald?

  And then the connective tissue that will be required coming out of a Superman sequel and whatever else is going to happen. So I, just a moment to appreciate what we got, which is pretty remarkable, I would say. Like, it, it is in a really, really strong place for a finale, which even two weeks ago, I don't know if I would have said because we were marveling over the fact that they basically ended the season already with the big Rushville incident and restarted.

• 37:15Chris Ryan?

  Well, I want to end this segment with you because I want to let you get back to work. It was great seeing you. Are, are you going to stay up to watch the Eagles tonight?

• 37:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 37:25Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 37:26Andy Greenwald?

  My entire day is based around that. I'll eat lunch then. Are you kidding me?

• 37:31Chris Ryan?

  And you'll eat dinner on the, the bones of Case Keenum? Yeah.

• 37:35Andy Greenwald?

  And I'll eat dinner when, next time I get to the Delta Lounge, thanks to your largesse. I'll be fine.

• 37:39Chris Ryan?

  Thanks, Greenwald. I'll talk to you on Thursday. We'll do a little bit of, a little bit of slow horses and, you know, hopefully get to some East of Eden pretty soon. That's coming out.

• 37:50Andy Greenwald?

  We'll do a bigger show Thursday.

• 37:51Chris Ryan?

  Thursday evening on Netflix. Great to see you, man. Talk to you soon.

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• 38:56Speaker 01

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• 39:11Speaker 01

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• 39:28Speaker 01

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• 39:31Speaker 01

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• 39:34Speaker 01

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• 39:43Speaker 01

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• 39:57Chris Ryan?

  I'm joined by Van Lathan. We needed to do this, even though we're a week late on the Lioness finale. You were in Sweden, so we couldn't, we couldn't hook up and talk about the final op. Dude, what a season of TV.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 40:12Chris Ryan?

  And one that you and I have enjoyed together. And we didn't want to leave people without getting in the cage one more time.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  If it's okay.

• 40:17Chris Ryan?

  If it's okay.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  If it's, if it's okay with Tracy, we'll talk about.

• 40:21Chris Ryan?

  Do you want to do, I don't want to do that right now.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Okay, let's not do it.

• 40:23Chris Ryan?

  Because this is the watch, this isn't the big picture. We can save it for the end. We can talk college football and Tracy Lathan.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  We're chopping it up.

• 40:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. What did you think of the end of the season?

• 40:31Speaker 01

  I thought the finale was a tad bit underwhelming.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  It's a tad bit underwhelming.

• 40:39Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Can you set the stage of where you watched it? Did you watch it like in international travel or?

• 40:44Speaker 01

  I watched it in Sweden.

• 40:45Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Which changes the experience totally.

• 40:48Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Right? Because you know, you're looking around.

• 40:50Chris Ryan?

  It was in Swedish. Yeah.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you're watching. Also, look, so I watched it while I was traveling for the Spotify Summit in Sweden's in a very nice hotel room, hotel diplomat in Sweden.

• 41:02Chris Ryan?

  Oh, nice. Nice.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  And it was one of those situations where. Where you are removed from your comfort zone.

• 41:11Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  And you feel like you have no distractions. When they're traveling, no distractions.

• 41:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Everybody knows kind of not to call, you're in a different time zone. It is you and the goddamn show. So I was locked in to Lioness, the finale. And after the highs of this season, which saw Joe in such harrowing situations.

• 41:32Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  It just kind of felt like they ran out of gas to me.

• 41:38Chris Ryan?

  It felt like there was an idea of where it should end. And that Taylor Sheridan, the guy who obviously created and wrote this series, was like, I want this to tie together to the first season.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 41:50Chris Ryan?

  I want to bring back some of the villains of the past season's villains, is a relative term. And I want to emphasize that the war has come home for Joe. All the way back into her actual home where she's been. There was an attempted kidnapping or attempted murder, a kidnapping. And now her husband has left her.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:11Chris Ryan?

  And then we get this finale where we find out that this guessing game that's been going on for the last couple of episodes of who's behind Joe's kidnapping is finally, we find out it's Aaliyah from the first season. It's the daughter of the man that Cruz, the original lioness of this series, or I guess the second lioness, takes out.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Right. Bassem Youssef.

• 42:32Chris Ryan?

  What?

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Bassem Youssef.

• 42:33Chris Ryan?

  Yes, and they had that and they were like, okay, like that's the idea that we want to end on. But they did so much complicated shit in the beginning that like getting there was like, if you watched the route the car took to get there.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 42:47Chris Ryan?

  It was, it was so wild. And I think that's embodied in what is both my favorite and least favorite moment of the entire season.

• 42:57Chris Ryan?

  Martin Donovan, who plays Nicole Kidman's husband on the show, Caitlin's husband. Do we ever get his name?

• 43:04Speaker 01

  I don't know. I like, I think we do because.

• 43:07Chris Ryan?

  Is it like Ellis or something like?

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Well, he says, well, you know what? When Kelly calls, Michael Kelly's character, when he calls, he says, does she, does he say, let me speak to your husband or does he say the character's name?

• 43:21Chris Ryan?

  In any case, it's Martin Donovan.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Right, Martin Donovan.

• 43:23Chris Ryan?

  Who is very good at playing dudes like this, you know, like kind of like shadowy executives. He was like this in Tenet. You know, Joe has been rescued by this point by Cruz and the crew in Texas. We'll get to that. And Martin Donovan does this thing where he's like, you know, you and me, Caitlin, we don't really ever cross a line in terms of sharing information and in terms of asking each other about each other's work. And Martin Donovan is an analyst of some kind who, but who works for like probably a hedge fund, a data-driven hedge fund.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Seems like he's connected to the intelligence community or the State Department in a private sector capacity.

• 44:07Chris Ryan?

  One that makes a lot of money, I think.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  One that makes a lot of money, but also is privy to a lot of intel.

• 44:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and then he's like, so the State Department asked us to like basically run an analysis of what just happened and figure out who did it. And the way that he tells her about this, it would be instant divorce. He obviously has like the conclusion that he has come to, which is that Ukraine is behind Joe's kidnapping.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 44:33Chris Ryan?

  And he's like, who could have benefited? And she's just like, I don't know, like maybe Afghanistan, maybe this, maybe that. And he's just like, but who would have the wherewithal? And she's like, well, I don't know, maybe Russia, maybe China, maybe Iran. He's like, but who would be able to activate agents? And he's like, tell her!

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:49Chris Ryan?

  You know the answer!

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:51Chris Ryan?

  A CIA agent just got kidnapped on American soil.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  But is there some, is he not supposed to say it like that? Is, is there some sort of conflict of interest?

• 45:01Chris Ryan?

  It's not like he's like, she came to the conclusion by himself. He says, we're gonna break the, the sort of barrier that we have between us where we don't share information. And he immediately puts himself into it. Here's the thing, though. He's fucking wrong! He's wrong!

• 45:16Speaker 01

  That's somebody killed.

• 45:17Chris Ryan?

  There's never anything, there's no acknowledgement that the world's smartest man, who sits there and is just like, the Qataris are taking over our universities. But that's not what really scares me.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:28Chris Ryan?

  AI scares me. This dude is wrong. It was Aaliyah in a bathtub calling in favors with two phones.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Which by the way.

• 45:38Chris Ryan?

  Joe Dumars style.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  Somebody should have been able to peep that. Somebody should have been like, okay, who are all of Joe's enemies?

• 45:47Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  That are left on the board from ops gone by.

• 45:51Chris Ryan?

  Dude, it's, she's the lioness.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 45:53Chris Ryan?

  Who have the lionesses taken out?

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:55Chris Ryan?

  Who are their family and friends who are still in action?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:00Chris Ryan?

  Do they have a lot of money and a grudge?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Right, but they're so smart, they're dumb. They go through this entire elaborate thing, then gets our Ukrainian bay killed.

• 46:11Chris Ryan?

  Oh.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  By the way, I gotta say something, man.

• 46:14Chris Ryan?

  That's just like.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  I gotta say, in this episode, Ashat Sheridan TV is back.

• 46:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Just straight.

• 46:22Chris Ryan?

  I know, just like such a long, her getting out of the shower.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Right. We just, Sheridan's like, hey, man, she's about to go, you're not gonna see her again. Before she goes, I'm gonna give you guys a little something.

• 46:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Enjoy, okay? Ashat, Aaliyah, Ashat, end of the season.

• 46:37Chris Ryan?

  Like, couple of strip clubs in this season, right?

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Exactly, just Ashat Sheridan, give you the ass, right? Then she's out of here. That character dies when she legitimately was trying to protect her country.

• 46:47Chris Ryan?

  And America.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  And America. The entire failure of the intelligence community summed up in the death of one character. But not only that, carnage.

• 46:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  In a random cafe place where African diplomats are killed.

• 47:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  All because Joe is strung out on her grief.

• 47:08Chris Ryan?

  And they're still giving her the playbook.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  And they're still giving her the playbook, your call.

• 47:11Chris Ryan?

  You're Davis Webb.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  She.

• 47:12Chris Ryan?

  It's okay, brother.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  She legitimately just came home from kidnapping. But she's like, you know what? Go for it, Joe.

• 47:19Chris Ryan?

  Green light.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Green light, do whatever you need.

• 47:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  And she makes that wrong call, people die. This episode and all of that stuff would have worked if it wouldn't have been so scattershot. It just didn't seem like all of that connected to the grandiosity of the plot throughout the entire season. Because remember, there was, who is the mole? Is there somebody giving information?

• 47:42Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Why do we know so much about the way Joe is moving around? The kidnapper, is it Iran? Is it Ukraine? Like, we go to Cuba. We go down to Guantanamo Bay.

• 47:53Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  And when we go there, it's just luck that some guy sees Joe.

• 48:00Chris Ryan?

  That they tort, like, but not torture, I mean tortured earlier in this season, yeah.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Right, some guy sees Joe and is like, hey, you, black woman, Irish name. I'm like, what the fuck? So we get to the end of it and I like, I actually like the thread of next season being about her chickens coming home to the roof.

• 48:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  I think that's actually awesome, right? But it just seemed like more work should have been done throughout the season to get us here. Still a fantastic season. This legitimately was the only episode where they missed for me.

• 48:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, because the penultimate episode, the one where they get her back, I'd put that shootout up against almost anything I've seen on TV in the last 10 years. Like, like, like up there, maybe not up there with like the True Detective, season one.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:46Chris Ryan?

  Shootout, but as far as like action set pieces go, in a non-genre, like non-fantasy, like Game of Thrones, Last of Us kind of way. That shootout in, in Texas was incredible, like with the helicopter coming in and everything.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  See, I love that shootout. I still like the shootout from, which season was it? Where Taylor Sheridan once again comes in, they cross the border?

• 49:12Chris Ryan?

  Mexico.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Huh?

• 49:13Chris Ryan?

  It was the second season.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 49:14Chris Ryan?

  Right?

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Oh, I can't, I feel like it was the second season as well, because that's when the congresswoman that got kidnapped.

• 49:19Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:20Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  So those two are the crowning jewels, but all of that stuff, it, it was working in this season. And then at the end, this almost seemed like a backdoor pilot for the next season of the show. Like, we're gonna tamp you down.

• 49:32Chris Ryan?

  Well, it was, so this has been like a huge thing that people have been talking about after the Emmys and a bunch of studies that have been like, people are losing interest in TV shows if they don't come back within a year of their final episode. Like, if you, if you make people wait two, three years for stuff, there, you'll have, every once in a while, you'll have a severance that people are like, I'll wait because I need to know everything, I need to find out what happened. But that, what happens is most of the time is like even for something like Widows Bay, which obviously just won a bunch of Emmys, I'm sure Apple gave a second season relatively early in the process, but not so early that Katie Dippel, when she came and talked to us, was like, I haven't started writing yet. You know, like when she talked to us after the finale, she was like, I have not started writing the second season yet.

• 50:17Chris Ryan?

  Taylor is like one of the only dudes out there who's kind of got like this, you can make as many seasons of this as you want, you know? And so he at least was able to make an authentic cliffhanger in the fourth, in this third season, which we usually don't get those kinds of things anymore. People feel the need to wrap everything up because they don't know if they're coming back.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  This also was a season where the show became distinctly about Joe. Like, this season is about her. Other seasons in the show, she is the eyes and ears by which we observe this world.

• 50:52Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  But there's a new lioness, there is the ragtag group of people. People, there's a new enemy. This season is about her and then it expands the show around her. She's kidnapped, her family, all of the bodies she's laid, the red in her ledger. That is what this season is about.

• 51:13Chris Ryan?

  It's also like a very big Zoe Saldana season because they could have told this story in a linear fashion where she gets the attempted kidnapping or the attempted assassination early, does all her shit. And then midway through the season gets kidnapped and then she's basically off the board for the second half of the season. Cause she's getting moved around and instead they're like, no, let's tell it in these two timelines so that we can max out Zoe Saldana. And she's doing action shit, but she's also in danger. She's doing detective stuff, but she's also still like this mysterious kind of like uh rabbi to these like lionesses and like showing them the way.

• 51:57Chris Ryan?

  So it's, it's like a good use of her, if perhaps a confusing way to tell a story. Hot button issues openly monologued about, but not really discussed or debated. Uh, this season include uh foreign largely Chinese, Russian and Qatari influence in the American university system and media.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:14Chris Ryan?

  Corruption among the Ukrainian political class was a late breaking curve ball.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:19Chris Ryan?

  From the origins of COVID, China pushing disinformation to pit Americans against one another. The evils of AI and very, very, very briefly, a real world mention of America's invasion and toppling of the Venezuelan government.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. You did the same thing with Venezuela is what the Russians sell us.

• 52:39Chris Ryan?

  Russia and Morgan Freeman's basically like touche.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. He goes, hey, we shouldn't have done that.

• 52:46Chris Ryan?

  It's interesting that like, what, what do you think of that collection of, of stories that they're talking about? Like it's not quite Fox News.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:58Chris Ryan?

  And it's not quite, I don't know. It's not conspiracy.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  So can I give you the, the cynical read? The cynical read is obviously it's propaganda being pushed by the political worldview of the creators of the show.

• 53:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  But there's also another read and I stretch my brain to consider this read as well. That what they are trying to do is legitimately give us the mind frame.

• 53:22Chris Ryan?

  Of these people.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Of these people.

• 53:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Who have to believe in the single virtue of America, American freedom, and not just that, but American domination. So in order to put your life on the line for the country.

• 53:37Chris Ryan?

  You gotta believe you're fighting for something bigger than you are and more important than you are.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Right. But like not just American freedom, which is what she sells to her children. America first, not in the America first way that we see thrown around in political spheres now, but that the world is better. The greater hand that America has in it, right? American exceptionalism, perfect way to put it, better way to put it, the way that it is put. And in order to do that, you have to believe in the shadowy enemy everywhere else. And in the fact that they hate us because they hate us. So every single country falls into that sort of designation. So everything you hear is number one, the things that America does and has done aren't really so bad in the context of the entire history of the world.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  There've been assassinations going back to Jesus Christ and all of that.

• 54:27Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  So every once in a while.

• 54:28Chris Ryan?

  Assassinations, they're the first assassin is in the Bible.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Right. Every once in a while you gotta take a motherfucker out. We didn't invent it. We just gotta do the same thing that they did back in the day, right? And then the other side of it is our way of life that we've tried to export and change the world is under constant threat.

• 54:46Chris Ryan?

  Yep.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  And you watching this show, you get up and you go to work and you come home, but somewhere there's somebody who their entire job is watching the wall. And that.

• 54:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. The Fugan men's speech.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly. And that person has to take these threats seriously.

• 55:03Chris Ryan?

  Right. I think the reason why it's confusing, whatever you want to, whatever, however you want to describe like the political and social and ideological viewpoints of the characters, because I think you're exactly right. Is that if you were going to do this job, you would have to look at the country as a thing worth defending, saving, promoting, believing in. So a lot of what they're talking about is that the things that are wrong with America are seeded by outside evil forces.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:35Chris Ryan?

  NGOs with shadowy financing, uh, university students graduating and believing in socialism and communism. Hysteria over a cold, which is kind of what the attitude the show takes towards COVID. And getting involved in what they deem

• 55:55Chris Ryan?

  non-essential or non-beneficial armed conflicts, like the Ukrainian fight against Russia, stuff like that.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Which is the genesis of Joe's entire strife in this season, or so we think. Right? She gets involved in that and it actually complicates something that she would be able to see. Think about that.

• 56:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Thematically, if not for her getting involved in that op, she probably would have been able to see the actual problem.

• 56:21Chris Ryan?

  Coming for her.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Which is her past, but because she got involved in that war that really has nothing to do with us. It complicated everything else, things that we should be able to see. And that to me is kind of like a microcosm of how people feel about the Ukraine situation.

• 56:35Chris Ryan?

  And I went back and rewatched bits of the first episode of this season and they're actually, I mean, the, the Ukraine stuff is, is pretty, pretty well rendered. It's very, very good action stuff. And I forgot that she basically turns to Cruz after they get the Russian general and she's like, what the fuck are we doing here? This isn't even our fight. And I'm like, this is where you're drawing the line? Like you've been going around hiring women to assassinate people all over the world. Like you think this is like the.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:05Chris Ryan?

  And I guess it's kind of good because it illustrates just how almost futuristic the Ukrainian conflict has become. With like drone warfare and everything like that.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:14Chris Ryan?

  But in any case, uh, there's something that happens with all these discussions of these topics where people usually say them and in most dramatic writing, there would be an opposition force. There would be somebody being like, I don't know about that. I think that you're wrong about that. Or here's what we have to, here's why I think the something, something that you don't think. And in this show, in this season, there's no pushback. Now we made jokes about this where somebody would be in the office and be like, what, what did this motherfucker just say? But it is kind of like either a flaw or an attribute, I can't decide what of his writing, that people are like, they're just unchecked.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:54Chris Ryan?

  And it makes more room for their like new, like their detailed rundown of how the Qataris have ruined Princeton.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. You know, yeah, exactly. You know what? A lot of people ask that know my politics, like how I can enjoy this show. And the answer is very simple. It's because I believe in my politics. I like actually believe in them.

• 58:14Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  So them being challenged does not bother me at all. As a matter of fact, other people's perspectives on them don't bother me at all. The only thing that bothers me is when people lie about what it is that they're doing.

• 58:26Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  This show is truthful in what it is trying to do. Now, a lot of that stuff is bullshit that I don't agree with, but the reality is I share my community with a bunch of people who do believe that. So I'm pretty confident in the way that I view the world. Therefore this show like doesn't really bother me. I mean, before, you know, I'll go watch it, it Avengers Endgame where a billionaire saves the universe, right? Like where a billionaire, a guy who's, he's a, a smart guy with a bunch of money saves the entire universe.

• 58:57Chris Ryan?

  Arms dealer.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  He's an arms dealer. And he say, he saves not just this world, but he saves trillions of lives, right? He's talking about, you know, propaganda. So like none of this stuff really bothers me that much. Especially if they're real about it and this show is, this show is honest about what it is and who it's catering to. And something else, there's enough of a human dynamic here, like at play around this stuff. Like when Nicole Kidman and her husband are going back and forth, the thing that I think about more either more even then, should I say? The information is what must that marriage be like? Like, these people who are connected to Joe, they call her boss, this maternal fucking connection that they have to her.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Throughout the entire season, they were really going through it when they thought they would never see her again.

• 59:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  And all of that human stuff is really well done in the show. All of the connections, the little, do we like Kyle? Is Kyle a hero? Is Kyle a villain? That's a really good character. All of that stuff is really done.

• 59:57Chris Ryan?

  Do you want to see the Kyle in Africa spinoff?

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Uh, definitely. I definitely want to see the Kyle in Africa spinoff. It almost seemed like they were setting it up.

• 1:00:05Chris Ryan?

  They kinda did.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:07Chris Ryan?

  When Michael Kelly was just like, you know what's gonna happen? Now we have to go intervene in Mali. You're gonna go? I was like, oh, lord.

• 1:00:17Chris Ryan?

  Yes, I, I think that there is also something unique about this series. Whether or not it's entirely intentional or not, which is that a lot of moments get no sold. For people who don't know, that's like a, it's like a term when like, if Van is like, I have an incredible idea, theory about Star Wars. And I just like, I'm like, cool. And then I just move on to the next topic.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Which is the worst thing you can do in a tandem performance in wrestling. If you no sell something, they'll actually kick you in your fucking face because you're supposed to sell somebody else to make somebody else look good.

• 1:00:49Chris Ryan?

  But there are a lot of moments that get tossed out. For instance, like, late breaking in this season, I think Cruz becomes kind of like fixated on being the one to save Joe. Because she is like, this person made me who I am and I actually like who I am now. Um, and so much so that she does multiple solo prayers, begging for the opportunity to be the one who gets to assassinate the people who've taken Joe.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:18Chris Ryan?

  Right?

• 1:01:21Chris Ryan?

  That's really just like moved past, you know? Like, like, obviously, when she rescues Joe and Joe's like, I owe you now. And Cruz is like, you don't owe me anything.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  But can I tell you something? The end of the show made that stuff make more sense to me.

• 1:01:34Chris Ryan?

  Yes, well, now that you know Cruz is gonna be in the jackpot next season.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Cruz's op to get Aaliyah.

• 1:01:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  And not only the op, they were opping the shit out of each other.

• 1:01:43Chris Ryan?

  So that's like an example of something where it's like, oh, that's cool. Like, you can then read into the super story, like the macro stuff. The stuff that gets kind of no sold is when they murder a Ukrainian woman who's done nothing but help the United States.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  And then, as if.

• 1:02:00Chris Ryan?

  And I'm just like, goddamn, I wish I had that info.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  As if we didn't realize that they killed her because they come back to the meeting room and Joe is like, what happened? Everybody else was like, oh, shit.

• 1:02:11Chris Ryan?

  She knew too much.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, you fucking.

• 1:02:13Chris Ryan?

  She knew too much.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  It's like, they look.

• 1:02:15Chris Ryan?

  Is this Goodfellas?

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  Everybody else is like, hey, man, can't make an omelet while, you know?

• 1:02:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  And so we know that, right? And that's like, oh, shit, that sucks. We like that character. Then we have to see her dead body as Ringo the Dog finds her.

• 1:02:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  And I'm like, okay, man.

• 1:02:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Now they're really letting us know the cost of existing inside of this world. I'm not so sure they got there with that character. What that actually did, which is another thing that I have to give the show credit for, because everyone in this world extols the virtue of who they are and what they are doing.

• 1:02:52Chris Ryan?

  It showed that they're like, they were corrupt.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  They were wrong and they murdered an innocent person.

• 1:02:58Chris Ryan?

  Which is what Morgan Freeman says to Michael Kelly. He's like, don't ever think it's anything but murder.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:02Chris Ryan?

  Like, like, you can tell yourself whatever you want about military action or this or that, but it's murder.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  So these super powerful people murdered somebody with their incompetence, which is another thing that the show kind of does every once in a while. That lets you know that despite all of the political packaging of the show, there still are consequences to existing inside of this world.

• 1:03:26Chris Ryan?

  So season four will be, I mean, thi- this happens in action movies especially where the villain has an opportunity to get their revenge. But they want their revenge in the exact circumstances that they want it, that they've imagined. Aaliyah has like 150 opportunities to kill Joe.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46Chris Ryan?

  But she wants the entire Lioness team.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  She wants to get them all.

• 1:03:50Chris Ryan?

  To come to her.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Chris Ryan?

  I don't know how she's gonna do that, uh, now that she's, you know, done the kidnapping bit. But it will be interesting to see, like, I'm sure he has like an ending in mind. I bet this is gonna be the last season. It would line up with when he's leaving for Peacock, when Taylor leaves for Universal. But this is such a weird show that I, I like, I can't, I'll never stop watching this.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  We're getting robbed of the entire Lioness universe, which I would love to see.

• 1:04:22Chris Ryan?

  I know.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:04:24Chris Ryan?

  But as somebody who's gone through the like, Taylor show's not written by Taylor, it just doesn't hit the same.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I get it. Oh, uh, because I haven't tried like Yellowstone Marshalls.

• 1:04:34Chris Ryan?

  He wrote Yellowstone for the whole thing, but somebody else is writing, uh, Dutton, yeah.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  So she wants to kidnap a senior CIA case officer. Not just a senior CIA case officer, but one that knows where all of the bodies are buried, that the American government will go through incredible lengths to get back. And she's gonna keep trying. The question for the next season is, number one, is she gonna get the opportunity to kidnap Joe? Which you almost think that she would have to.

• 1:05:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  For this to make sense, right? Joe's gonna, is Joe gonna hit the bottle? Like, her, her family's gone, what's Joe's gonna be into? Is Joe gonna hit the bottle because her family's gone? She's by herself, she's got fucking.

• 1:05:19Chris Ryan?

  She starts hitting the low a little hard.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Crazy, people are like, Joe, you're spiraling. You don't fucking know what I've been through.

• 1:05:25Chris Ryan?

  Giamatti in sideways style.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. She's drinking, she's pouring the bottle on her rancid toe, the whole fucking shit.

• 1:05:30Chris Ryan?

  She's only got nine toes now.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Right, she's going, yeah, and I'm telling you, right there. Is Aaliyah from the first season a compelling enough villain? Like, that one singular thing, that's not what the show is about. The show is about layers upon layers upon layers of political espionage.

• 1:05:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I thought that the idea that like, basically there's a black market for like ops. And that you can go out and hire Belarusians and Iranians and all these people to do your dirty work. That was a pretty cool world to go into, a pretty interesting world to go into. I don't know if Aaliyah is the one that I've been like, that's the Joker. That's, that's the person I want to get to eventually. There was one more thing I wanted to ask you about this.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  Was it about the butt shot of Aaliyah?

• 1:06:13Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Because we could talk about that. We're gonna do a separate pod.

• 1:06:17Chris Ryan?

  About butt shots and Lioness?

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  Ass shots and all of them, by the way, because it's not.

• 1:06:21Chris Ryan?

  A lot of guys.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  A lot of guys, right?

• 1:06:22Chris Ryan?

  A lot of guys.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Is, is, this is the ass shot show like of our time. I really can't get, like, there have been some phenomenal, he loves the ass shot.

• 1:06:31Chris Ryan?

  He really does. I was just trying to think of like, if he does this in a lot of his series, but I, he loves to get people naked. You know another thing he loves? And I want, this is what I was gonna ask you.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:06:41Chris Ryan?

  Forty-two percent of this show, I did the math, takes place on tarmacs.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Oh, airport shit.

• 1:06:47Chris Ryan?

  I've never seen a guy who loves fucking flying private more than Taylor Sheridan. There's nothing that gets him off more than a private jet rolling up and then just being like, yeah, wheels up.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Wheels up.

• 1:07:00Chris Ryan?

  Let's go, I'll let you know where we're going when we get there.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  Not just that, but the jet rules.

• 1:07:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Like, this is the altitude you have to fly at to be under radar.

• 1:07:09Chris Ryan?

  How much fuel are you carrying?

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  How much fuel are you carrying?

• 1:07:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  The jumping off points, like, we gotta get to fucking Mexico because when we get to Mexico, it's fucking done.

• 1:07:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  We can't be seen anymore.

• 1:07:20Chris Ryan?

  There was a really funny one, they were like, then they're in international airspace and, you know, they're gone. And it's like, I don't know, you guys go into like international spots all the time and assassinate people, just blow the plane out of the sky.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  You went to the Ukraine.

• 1:07:31Chris Ryan?

  Do you think, because he shoots a lot of this stuff in Texas, like on his ranch now? Do you think that Taylor has his own airport on that ranch? And that all of that stuff is shot like at his spot?

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Oh, it could be.

• 1:07:45Chris Ryan?

  Because the airport in Cuba and the airport in Baltimore and the airport in Mexico are the same airport.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  The same airport, yeah. I mean, it, it could be. I like the fact that he uses his own shit. Like, he like.

• 1:07:58Chris Ryan?

  I definitely think that Ukraine is Texas, but with like a Ukraine filter on the camera.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  My que- my question is probably all at the big ranch that he has. My question is, what would be your version of this? If there was a CR show and the show was essentially about some other shit, but really wrapped up in all of your interests?

• 1:08:18Chris Ryan?

  My passions?

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Your passions.

• 1:08:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Because his passions are guns and horses and asses and airplanes and lesbians.

• 1:08:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  Those are the things that he loves.

• 1:08:27Chris Ryan?

  This is the reason I like the show so much is I can't think of any other passions I have.

• 1:08:34Chris Ryan?

  Maybe that's what we're getting to, is this deep psychological profile that I didn't know existed for myself. I don't know, like, nobody wants to watch a TV show about used bookstores and being bad at golf.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:44Chris Ryan?

  You know?

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Pick up basketball show, nobody wants that, you know?

• 1:08:49Chris Ryan?

  Anything else before I let you go? You got higher learning. And, and you're back and you jet lagged and you, you did the show with me and I appreciate it.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm fine, man, like, I'm good. Like, I tell you, I will, I have to say this, I'm, once again, we have, I have to go.

• 1:09:00Chris Ryan?

  Oh, you want to do a little bit of behind the scenes? Well, so, go ahead.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  I mean, look, we're talking about Lioness and it seems as if Tracy Letts doesn't like that idea, man. He doesn't like the idea of us talking about, did you see?

• 1:09:11Chris Ryan?

  I think he's fine with us talking about it, I just don't think he's interested in joining us in any kind of capacity.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  So you didn't feel played by what he said on the big picture?

• 1:09:19Chris Ryan?

  I, I, I had reached out on Olive Branch last time, I think when I was on Midnight Boys. I think I posited an idea of like, why, why are us three guys fighting for scraps and being third chair? Like, why don't we think about making something, owning something, being part of something together, three chairs?

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:09:39Chris Ryan?

  And Tracy said, that's loser shit. And that sounds like the idea of a loser and the philosophy of a loser and, and that you and I, I believe you compared us to Pat Buchanan and Lyndon LaRouche.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Lyndon LaRouche, yeah.

• 1:09:51Chris Ryan?

  Failed politicians, to say nothing, uh, to say the least.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Said that we were chopping it up.

• 1:09:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  We're chopping it up about Lioness.

• 1:09:58Chris Ryan?

  I mean, cool, he's off my Christmas card list, you know what I mean?

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  I'll be honest with you, I don't like that shit. I'm like, I'm, I'm gonna be all the way real. It was funny, because like, you know, let me keep it all the way real with the audience. Let me keep it all the way real with the audience. I realize that the big picture is like the Bushwood Country Club of the Ringer. I, I, I do. I get it. I am the Rodney Dangerfield.

• 1:10:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  They are the Bushwood Country Club of the Ringer. Lovable people that we love to talk movies. But I know that the audience over there is not thrilled to see me on the podcast.

• 1:10:36Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Right? That I go in there to rabble rouse and to rough shit up and what we have in common with each other.

• 1:10:42Chris Ryan?

  This Star Wars movie was good.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  This and say, guess what? The Flash fucking ripped.

• 1:10:48Chris Ryan?

  Did you do that?

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Nah, I did it on Midnight Boys. It's one of my great regrets. Anyway, um, it did not rip. But I was caught up in the moment. They put Christopher Reeve in the movie. Anyway, so look, uh, so I get that. I understand that. And that's like a unspoken deal that I have with the fans of the big picture. You know, they know this.

• 1:11:04Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  They know what we have in common.

• 1:11:06Chris Ryan?

  Everybody knows what they're here for.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Everybody knows. They know that I'm there to rough up and be the rabble rouser about comic book movies. But we all love movies. We love Sean. We love Amanda. Okay? That's the fucking deal. So when I said that I wanted to be third chair, that was really for them.

• 1:11:23Chris Ryan?

  It was facetious.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  It was to get them going. Let's, it's holding on a little too tight. I gotta be honest with you, bro. Let's is holding on a little bit too tight, bro.

• 1:11:33Chris Ryan?

  Do you know what it is? I just think that's a dude who I love. I really do love him in the short time that I've known him. And I just, I just think his banter comes from another generation.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  That's the thing.

• 1:11:46Chris Ryan?

  He's like, I'm like, you're, that's a, you're hitting a little close to the kidneys, Tracy.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  That's, that's the thing. The thing is, you know, he doing something you're not supposed to do.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  You're not supposed to fall in love with your side bitch. You're not. The big picture is Tracy Letts' side chick. That's a two-time Pulitzer. That's his side chick. You're not supposed to fall in love with your side chick, even if she make you feel young again.

• 1:12:10Chris Ryan?

  This just speaks to the allure of podcasting and Sean and Amanda creating such a warm, hospitable home for so many of us.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  He, well, he called me Lincoln LaRouche and I felt like Kevin Hart in the 40 year old version, like, I don't understand the words that's coming out of your mouth, but I'mma take him as disrespect. You know what I'm saying? I'mma take him as disrespect. What the fuck you talking, chopping it up? Grandpa, if you ever go see your ass down somewhere. I knew who that was, but I'm just saying like, the, I, I like, I looked at that and I'm like, hey, man, look, now we gotta do the thing where we really start to kind of get at each other a little bit. Don't, don't, don't play with me, Tracy. Like sitting down there talking with Sean. Look, it's all love.

• 1:12:52Chris Ryan?

  It is.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  But don't fall in love with your side chick, grandpa. Don't do, don't do that.

• 1:12:57Chris Ryan?

  Where would you rank the watches, your side chicks?

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  What you mean?

• 1:13:00Chris Ryan?

  Like in your, in your, I think, I think you are a man who is so ever-present on so many pods. I don't really understand the romantic hierarchy of your podcast.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  Oh, but see, that's the thing though. If you don't fall in love with them, you can treat them all the same.

• 1:13:14Chris Ryan?

  See, I see.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? Like for me, I'm a part, for better or for worse, whether you like it or not, I'm a part of the Ringer podcast family, baby.

• 1:13:23Chris Ryan?

  There we go.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  So I'mma, they're just doing, doing, doing it again. Predator. So I'mma be around having fun with my bros.

• 1:13:29Chris Ryan?

  Like Predator.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly the same thing. Predator, after they've both had atrophy. Like, I'm having fun with my bros, man. But I don't want to be third chair. I don't want to be third chair. There is no such thing really as a third chair. We're all just hanging out.

• 1:13:44Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Podcasting. Don't get over your skis though.

• 1:13:47Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Don't, don't do too much.

• 1:13:49Chris Ryan?

  This is your Oppenheimer moment. Like, what have I done? Cause you really ramped it up when you threw your hat in the ring.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  It was, yeah, it was like, yeah, it was, we were having fun, but like, you know, man.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Who you talking to?

• 1:14:04Chris Ryan?

  Oh my God. Thank you for coming to him.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  No problem. Love it. Lion ass. What are we gonna click up again to do?

• 1:14:11Chris Ryan?

  East of Eden?

• 1:14:16Chris Ryan?

  I'll talk to you soon.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  All right, peace.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

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• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  From the studio that brought you WandaVision.

• 1:14:58Speaker 06

  I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy.

• 1:15:08Speaker 06

  That family wasn't real. You sure about that?

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  I had a father called Vision. How is this possible?

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming only on Disney+