‘The Odyssey’ Is the Film Event of the Year. Plus, ‘Resident Evil’ and ‘Clayface’ Trailers.

Chris and Andy talk about the full trailers for ‘Clayface’ (6:15) and ‘Resident Evil’ (13:51), before addressing the online discourse around ‘Avengers: Doomsday’ (18:20). Then they talk about how the prolific British screenwriter Jez Butterworth may be poised to become the next Taylor Sheridan for Paramount (33:12). Later, they share their thoughts on ‘The Odyssey’ and how the movie has become the summer blockbuster (44:18). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi there. I am fully charged and here to tell you Toy Story 5 is now on Disney+

• 0:05Speaker 01

  It's been too long, cowboy.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  Woody, Buzz, and Jesse are back for a brand new adventure with some seriously cool new tech.

• 0:13Speaker 02

  What? Holy butterscotch!

• 0:15Speaker 00

  You said it, Jesse. So, save your batteries and watch the global phenomenon at home. And the best part, it's perfect for the whole family. Power up your movie night and watch Disney and Pixar's Toy Story 5, now streaming on Disney+ Rated PG.

• 0:35Speaker 03

  I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk, now!

• 0:41Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com. And joining me in the studio, now every time his daughters ask for more food, he says, "Somebody get these beggars out of here!" It's Andy Greenwald.

• 0:58Andy Greenwald?

  Sometimes when I come in, I can see that you're sitting on one.

• 1:00Chris Ryan?

  Let me tell you something. It's been a weird 10, 12, two weeks, maybe 12 days, two weeks.

• 1:06Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 1:07Chris Ryan?

  Because, um, been traveling.

• 1:09Andy Greenwald?

  You have.

• 1:10Chris Ryan?

  Haven't been able to exercise as much as I would like to because heat dome, in the air, on the road, watching World Cup. And then they took, they took my sweet, sweet vegetables away from me, you know, like, so I've basically been eating like,

• 1:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:27Chris Ryan?

  Uh, CR's 13-year-old diet. I'm surprised I'm not just taking out like full quarts of Ocean Spray cranberry juice at the fridge.

• 1:36Andy Greenwald?

  Are you back to like the peak days of mac and cheese with crumbled Pringles on top?

• 1:40Chris Ryan?

  That was, uh, by the way, we're gonna talk about regular television before I get into my culinary corner.

• 1:46Andy Greenwald?

  I'm leaning in.

• 1:47Chris Ryan?

  Today, we are gonna talk a little bit about The Odyssey, joining the other 714 episodes of analysis that you can get from The Ringer Podcast Network. Uh, we also have some news at the top that we wanted to go through, some trailers, some TV news. Um, and also we'll do some housekeeping about when we're doing what shows because I think people are getting annoyed that we haven't finished The Agency yet, although I know you're plugging away.

• 2:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I'm having a great time.

• 2:09Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:09Andy Greenwald?

  So, thank you.

• 2:10Chris Ryan?

  Um, when I was younger,

• 2:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 2:13Chris Ryan?

  My two staples were either a heavily mayonnaise-based pasta salad that I would make.

• 2:19Andy Greenwald?

  Mayonnaise-based, uh-huh. But it's mayonnaise-based, like a hyphen, not mayonnaise, comma, based?

• 2:26Chris Ryan?

  No, not like Little B.

• 2:27Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Okay.

• 2:29Chris Ryan?

  Although it was pretty based.

• 2:30Andy Greenwald?

  And, and you made this?

• 2:31Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And if you were curious about what it tasted like, I started to develop this recipe when I was studying, studying abroad in Cork, in Ireland.

• 2:43Andy Greenwald?

  I started this when I was studying under Ferran Adrià in Spain. No.

• 2:46Chris Ryan?

  No, it wasn't El Booy. It was El going to the, whatever the Asda was in Cork, uh, Ireland. And it was basically pasta and mayonnaise and like canned corn. And it was, uh, even the Irish people that I knew were like, yo, this needs an acid, you know?

• 3:07Andy Greenwald?

  Wow. Okay, so that was...

• 3:09Chris Ryan?

  But it almost like went so far beyond fat to umami, you know what I mean?

• 3:13Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, the sort of the mouth feel, like it coated your whole insides in a protective layer.

• 3:18Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, yes. And then Andy, as, as he mentioned, like for a long time, I was just like, I'm hungry, I guess I'll just have Kraft mac and cheese and crush Pringles on it.

• 3:25Andy Greenwald?

  But there's stuff like, who do we, you know, not to be therapy corner here, but like, who do you blame for this? Now, because in the reason I say this...

• 3:31Chris Ryan?

  My mother actually, uh, you know, um, was pretty good about, but we had like, I had like a lovely upbringing of culinary delights and, and both parents cooked and,

• 3:42Andy Greenwald?

  Really?

• 3:43Chris Ryan?

  They didn't bore me like...

• 3:44Andy Greenwald?

  Your dad cooked you?

• 3:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he grilled. He grilled and, uh, took me to McDonald's so that he could drink beer.

• 3:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 3:52Chris Ryan?

  Which I didn't know was not a thing.

• 3:53Andy Greenwald?

  But he couldn't drink beers while grilling?

• 3:56Chris Ryan?

  Uh, he could.

• 3:57Andy Greenwald?

  He respected the...

• 3:58Chris Ryan?

  He could.

• 3:58Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 3:59Chris Ryan?

  Uh, but yeah, I mean, like, I grew up like in a, you know, food groups, positive household.

• 4:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 4:05Chris Ryan?

  I think I just left the house. You know, only child, man, like...

• 4:09Andy Greenwald?

  It's the only child thing because I also like, we both had working moms who cooked in, I mean, it's amazing.

• 4:15Chris Ryan?

  Working mothers.

• 4:16Andy Greenwald?

  I know. We support them on this podcast.

• 4:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:18Andy Greenwald?

  Unlike some podcasts. And, um, although I was gonna, I was gonna make a Chris Nolan joke, but I guess Penelope is, you know...

• 4:25Chris Ryan?

  She's, she's practically the, the queen region.

• 4:28Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, she can't cover the Atlantic magazine, no, cover of the Mediterranean magazine. You can have it all. Um, the problem is that you leave home and you show up at college or wherever your next station is in life, just believing that certain things that are deeply idiosyncratic to your household or specifically like your parents are universal. So that when I arrived in, in, in college and be like, or like later in college when we had our own kitchen, and it would be like, ah, time for a night for me. And my mom's staple, like, I'll just do me nights for dinner were, um, buttered noodles cooked in, uh, canned chicken broth,

• 5:07Chris Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 5:08Andy Greenwald?

  which is quite salty.

• 5:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:09Andy Greenwald?

  And a microwave Stouffer's spinach souffle.

• 5:13Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 5:13Andy Greenwald?

  A classic combo for the mid-Atlantic palate. Or something that she called potato chip dip, which was for dinner, a bag of ridged potato chips, hers brand, of course, and a dip that I believe was just Philadelphia cream cheese.

• 5:29Chris Ryan?

  Yes, yes.

• 5:30Andy Greenwald?

  Ketchup and one onion.

• 5:32Chris Ryan?

  You have to also understand, Andy and I grew up in the, in the, the seat of power of cream cheese. The cradle, the cream cheese.

• 5:39Andy Greenwald?

  We had to, it was like Spam in Hawaii. You have to work it into every dish.

• 5:42Chris Ryan?

  And it just wound up being a very prevalent thing. Like, I thought dipping, uh, Snyder's hard, hard pretzels into cream cheese was, was honestly the highest ecstasy you could experience in food.

• 5:55Andy Greenwald?

  Chris, where are Snyder's pretzels from?

• 5:58Chris Ryan?

  Uh, where, uh, well, where are they?

• 6:00Andy Greenwald?

  John Fetterman's, Pennsylvania.

• 6:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, right. Oh, yes, of course.

• 6:02Andy Greenwald?

  Hannover.

• 6:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I thought you were trying to trick me into saying like Mitch McConnell's Kentucky.

• 6:06Andy Greenwald?

  No, although thoughts and prayers.

• 6:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:09Andy Greenwald?

  Um, but the problem is now the pendulum has swung...

• 6:12Chris Ryan?

  Mitch McConnell's like, I'm alive.

• 6:14Andy Greenwald?

  He's just eating pretzels.

• 6:15Chris Ryan?

  When are you guys gonna finish The Agency?

• 6:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, it takes. Um, I just feel like the pendulum has swung too far the other way. We're like, now I have children who are like, Dad, have you ever eaten at Burger King? And I was like, my dears, like, you are like probably 15%

• 6:33Chris Ryan?

  Burger King.

• 6:33Andy Greenwald?

  Burger King chicken sandwich.

• 6:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 6:35Andy Greenwald?

  Like, just from you.

• 6:36Chris Ryan?

  Just, you are, we could trace your line back to the king himself.

• 6:40Andy Greenwald?

  The king, you're royalty. You are the children of royalty.

• 6:42Chris Ryan?

  It's like a Targaryen thing.

• 6:43Andy Greenwald?

  That's right. Your hair color may have changed.

• 6:45Chris Ryan?

  I wanted to talk to you about a couple of things. You know, a few weeks ago, when we were wrapping up, uh, Widows Bay, you had also dipped into Weapons, the Zack Craig movie from a couple of years ago, last year, which was, uh, which was awesome and one of my favorite films of, of last year. And you declared, chest out, "I'm ready to get scared. I'm ready to be scared again. Or, or just for the first time in my life, I'm ready to experience"

• 7:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, first time.

• 7:11Chris Ryan?

  "true, unbridled cinematic fear."

• 7:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 7:14Chris Ryan?

  You didn't put it that way. You actually were like, as long as there's some irony and, and some...

• 7:18Andy Greenwald?

  No, just some well-observed emotional beats in the characters before they have their intestines removed through their mouths.

• 7:24Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Uh, you, you just, you declared that you were sort of preparing yourself for more adventurous film and TV going in the world of horror. Now, we have a couple of...

• 7:32Andy Greenwald?

  Year 14 of a podcast, time to get adventurous.

• 7:34Chris Ryan?

  Things coming. Uh, we had talked about these two titles earlier when their teasers came out.

• 7:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Chris Ryan?

  And now two new films, um, September's Resident Evil, which, uh, I'm prepared to dedicate my entire life to, is coming. And we got a full trailer for that. And then we also got the full trailer for Clayface, which is the, uh, is it the first non-super Gunverse DC movie?

• 8:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, well, this is the, this would be the third movie.

• 8:04Chris Ryan?

  It's the third movie.

• 8:05Andy Greenwald?

  I mean...

• 8:05Chris Ryan?

  Since he took over. Yeah, he and Peter Savern took over. So, uh, did you get scared? Are you ready?

• 8:11Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 8:11Chris Ryan?

  Are you ready to, to see what makes noise in the dark?

• 8:15Andy Greenwald?

  I, well, I think there's two ways to look at this. Like, the trailer for Clayface looks like, looks well-done. It looks like they have correctly chosen a lane. Like, I don't think there will be like ironic, slowcore, you know, Lumineers-esque Jimmy Eat World covers in this one. I don't think it's Jim Gunn House-style, which I think is good for the brand of DC, not necessarily for his own brand. And it 100% looks like a movie I don't want to see. But I don't mean that as like a...

• 8:45Chris Ryan?

  Because it's scary.

• 8:46Andy Greenwald?

  Well, it just looks like they are leaning full into, if I say it's Cronenbergian, that sounds like the Russo brothers saying that they're doing Parallax view.

• 8:55Chris Ryan?

  I think you would be joining a chorus of people who have pointed that out.

• 8:56Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think that's necessarily true. Um, it struck me also having some like Sam Raimi Darkman vibes.

• 9:03Chris Ryan?

  If it does, I think it would be to its benefit.

• 9:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 9:06Chris Ryan?

  Uh, they have certainly downplayed the humor in that film. If, if, if there is humor in Clayface, they have sort of downplayed it in the trailers, but I wouldn't be surprised. I think the big thing here is that I believe it is an R-rated movie.

• 9:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 9:21Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, that, you know, it's, it's kind of weird in 2026 with like the access everybody has to so much that PG-13 is still a thing, you know? Like, I, I, I think that, I wonder if it is kind of antiquated? Like, they don't check IDs at movie theaters.

• 9:40Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, this is gonna come up a lot in today's podcast, but my 13-year-old daughter accompanied me to The Odyssey, and she was a little worried.

• 9:50Chris Ryan?

  That she would get carded?

• 9:51Andy Greenwald?

  That she was gonna get carded.

• 9:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. So can't you go to an R movie if you're with an adult?

• 9:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 9:55Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 9:56Andy Greenwald?

  As, as my friend Brian's mother learned when she took us to see Basic Instinct, at the multiplex outside of Disney World.

• 10:03Chris Ryan?

  I assure you, no one was checking when we went to go see Menace to Society for the second time. They were like,

• 10:07Andy Greenwald?

  The second time.

• 10:08Chris Ryan?

  Come on in.

• 10:08Andy Greenwald?

  You could've put the two in Menace 2 Society. Um, she was actually very articulately saying that there should be a, another rating in between for like mature teenagers, you know?

• 10:20Chris Ryan?

  Shockingly, my, my, my, my friends in the audience at Chestnut Street did not want my takes on O-Dog.

• 10:26Andy Greenwald?

  Really?

• 10:27Chris Ryan?

  In Menace to Society.

• 10:28Andy Greenwald?

  Were you offering?

• 10:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that was one of my worst faux pas's ever committed in a movie theater where I'd seen it. And then,

• 10:35Andy Greenwald?

  Right, this was your second.

• 10:36Chris Ryan?

  I did like what I do every once in a while, like where like I see Training Day or whatever, and then I go to every man I know and say, we have to go see Training Day again.

• 10:44Andy Greenwald?

  You did do that.

• 10:44Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, so the, the original one was Menace to Society, where like, I, I think I'd seen it with my dad. And then I was like, every friend I had in school, I was like, we gotta go see fucking Menace to Society. So we went, I think at like a 3:30 or something, maybe when on a Saturday, to, on Chestnut Street in Philly.

• 11:03Andy Greenwald?

  I believe that theater is now a CBS.

• 11:04Chris Ryan?

  And now, and then there's gonna be a part where fucking O-Dog goes into the fucking thing, and he's like, yo! And this guy turned around and he goes, "Excuse me! I haven't seen the movie yet!"

• 11:17Chris Ryan?

  And I didn't talk for two years.

• 11:19Andy Greenwald?

  Did you explain to him the idea?

• 11:20Chris Ryan?

  I became Clayface.

• 11:22Andy Greenwald?

  Is this your origin story for rewatching films? Like, I feel like this is your traumatic Bruce Wayne, parents gunning down in the alley. You know, you wanted to own the fear, and now you do this for a living.

• 11:32Chris Ryan?

  It's like, my enthusiasm for movies is contagious, you know, and not always welcome.

• 11:37Andy Greenwald?

  It's infectious.

• 11:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:38Andy Greenwald?

  Really.

• 11:38Chris Ryan?

  Um.

• 11:39Andy Greenwald?

  Incredible story.

• 11:40Chris Ryan?

  So Clayface, yes, but...

• 11:43Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think, there's a couple of things about it that I think are worth noting. One is, it is a very, very interesting IMDB page, because this project began with a guy you are a fan of, Mike Flanagan, who is sort of the auteur of horror on television. And he was developing this, maybe for TV, maybe for movies, wrote the screenplay.

• 12:01Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 12:03Andy Greenwald?

  And then, when James Watkins, who's directed Black Mirror and a lot of British television, came on to direct it, he's done horror movies as well.

• 12:09Chris Ryan?

  Speak no evil, right? Yeah, speak no evil, I think, whatever the adaptation of the original, I can look it up.

• 12:15Andy Greenwald?

  When he came on to do it, he brought...

• 12:18Chris Ryan?

  Speak no evil, sorry.

• 12:19Andy Greenwald?

  He brought 60-year-old Hussein Amani on to rewrite the script and get a credit. And I think we remember him from such things as Wings of the Dove and Jude in the 90s.

• 12:30Chris Ryan?

  Drive, right?

• 12:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, right. So I think that's kind of fascinating.

• 12:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 12:34Andy Greenwald?

  And it is just also so deeply English. They filmed this in Liverpool. The two stars, well, the stars are Welshman and Naomi Aki, and then, like, Eddie Marzan and, uh, my guy, David Danchik from Star City.

• 12:49Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:50Andy Greenwald?

  And I guess they were like, is Max Minghella gonna hang out in the UK a little bit longer? Because he's also in this.

• 12:58Andy Greenwald?

  Anyway, big picture, I don't, this isn't the type of movie I want to see, but I think that I can see the strategy, and I think it makes a lot of sense. Particularly, it's particularly fortunate that this is the next movie after the financial wipeout of Supergirl.

• 13:15Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 13:15Andy Greenwald?

  Because you need to diversify the portfolio, my brothers.

• 13:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I will be curious to see whether Clayface has any connective tissue to that side of the DC storytelling.

• 13:24Andy Greenwald?

  What city is Clayface living in?

• 13:26Chris Ryan?

  Philly.

• 13:27Andy Greenwald?

  Good guess.

• 13:28Chris Ryan?

  Liverpool.

• 13:29Andy Greenwald?

  Great guess. I mean, I would say culturally similar.

• 13:32Chris Ryan?

  Metropolis, what's that place called?

• 13:34Andy Greenwald?

  Gotham City, dude.

• 13:36Chris Ryan?

  Oh, fuck.

• 13:37Andy Greenwald?

  Gotham?

• 13:38Chris Ryan?

  Damn.

• 13:39Andy Greenwald?

  City. Want to talk about the football club there, like Gotham United? Do they have?

• 13:44Chris Ryan?

  Um, the other one is...

• 13:45Andy Greenwald?

  So this is establishing Gotham City in the Gunverse. And I thought it was interesting that Matt Reeves has an executive producer credit on this movie. And I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that he's like, he's like the landlord. He keeps keys in his hand for Gotham at the moment, right?

• 14:03Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 14:04Andy Greenwald?

  Isn't that what that references?

• 14:05Chris Ryan?

  Wait, that's a rap line, isn't it?

• 14:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Label me landlord, I keep keys in my hand.

• 14:10Chris Ryan?

  That's Pusha?

• 14:11Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 14:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:12Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, yeah. It's not really relevant.

• 14:15Chris Ryan?

  You know, I think the way you delivered it didn't quite have the nasal cadence that Pusha T.

• 14:18Andy Greenwald?

  Oh. He is a contemporary of ours.

• 14:21Chris Ryan?

  The other movie that I wanted to ask you about is Resident Evil. We watched the teaser. I wouldn't even say that this trailer is that much different than the teaser. The thing I loved most about this trailer is I am fairly confident that what's in the trailer is like, the first five minutes of the movie. And that is a brilliant thing to do if you're doing a horror trailer. I hope they don't do another one. I think it's Resident Evil. It's the guy who made Barbarian Weapons. That should be enough to get you through the door. But having zombie bodies falling from roofs and exploding into blood plumes, uh, that's just what it's all about, you know?

• 14:56Andy Greenwald?

  And from the other side of the aisle.

• 14:59Andy Greenwald?

  Genuinely, this movie looks a lot more interesting to me, partly because of my very positive experience with weapons. But also, like, I mean, you love Austin Abrams, who's the star of this movie.

• 15:08Chris Ryan?

  Ah, he's very talented, yeah.

• 15:09Andy Greenwald?

  A lot of it is on him. But I really liked that what we see in the trailer leans into some humanity. Like, there's the beginning of it before he wanders into this, like, video game hellscape. But also, has a little bit of lightness and sense of humor about itself in that the trailer, like, the hammer of the trailer is Raccoon City, which is the famous, infamous name of the town in the video game, which is just like such a classic weird Japanese-English translation. I think a more heavy-handed or serious-minded director might have changed that. And I liked it.

• 15:46Chris Ryan?

  Changed Raccoon City?

• 15:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 15:48Chris Ryan?

  No, you can't change Raccoon City.

• 15:49Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, this is the one that you're gonna?

• 15:51Chris Ryan?

  No, that name rings out, come on, it's Raccoon City.

• 15:53Andy Greenwald?

  I can't wait to hear it. But then we get to The Odyssey, he'll be like, actually, Sinon's a character from the Aeneid.

• 15:58Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 15:59Andy Greenwald?

  Like, it'd be incredible what you got pedantic about.

• 16:01Chris Ryan?

  I'm the Emily Wilson of Resident Evil.

• 16:03Andy Greenwald?

  Of Konami horror video games. No, I just like that it is, it's a little bit, it's tongue-in-cheek, a little bit. Like, he knows what he's doing. And it just made me think again about something that I'm sure you and Sean have spoken about much more articulately than I can, which is that, like, there is a connection for people who know how to do horror with people who know how to do comedy. And I think it has to do with timing and manipulating audiences' expectation buildup and release.

• 16:29Chris Ryan?

  And they have found the third part of that triangle.

• 16:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 16:32Chris Ryan?

  Which is dudes who used to smoke a pack of Camel Lights and play Resident Evil.

• 16:36Andy Greenwald?

  Hell, yeah. So, no, I thought that looked really cool. I will, as I promised, I will be sprinkling the show with references to my journey to the IMAX theater this week with my daughter. And her main concern about seeing the movie wasn't seeing the movie. It was that by seeing an R movie, she's like, I bet there'll be a lot of really inappropriate or horror trailers. And I was like, absolutely not. No one does red-band trailers anymore. They aren't gonna show, so all of the trailers were...

• 17:04Chris Ryan?

  Now are just, yeah.

• 17:05Andy Greenwald?

  Resident Evil, it was the movie where Jessica Chastain burns pasta for her child and then becomes a demon.

• 17:11Chris Ryan?

  I actually have to say, I didn't know, there's some misinformation online about...

• 17:16Andy Greenwald?

  Stop there.

• 17:16Chris Ryan?

  About Other Mommy.

• 17:18Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 17:18Chris Ryan?

  On the IMDB logline, for at least when I talked about it on Big Picture, like, a week or two ago, the IMDB logline for Other Mommy suggested that there was a demon living in this house that was flatulent. A flatulent demon lives in this house and that the family has to, like, rid itself of this, I guess, farting demon. That didn't sound right to me, but I repeated it.

• 17:39Andy Greenwald?

  So you announced this?

• 17:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Andy Greenwald?

  So you contributed to this misinformation campaign?

• 17:43Chris Ryan?

  I insisted, and I read it from the internet movie database, you know, like, and so...

• 17:48Andy Greenwald?

  Did your own research again.

• 17:49Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I think I was wrong about that.

• 17:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I would say so.

• 17:53Chris Ryan?

  Delightfully so, because I have had the Other Mommy nightmare. Like, when I was a kid, you have the nightmare that you have to choose between two moms, and you keep being like, which one of you is my mom? And one is like, you have to choose, and the other one is insisting.

• 18:08Andy Greenwald?

  And the other one is making potato chip dip out of off-brand cream cheese? And you're like, well, that's the tell.

• 18:14Chris Ryan?

  Baltimore cream cheese.

• 18:15Andy Greenwald?

  What?

• 18:17Chris Ryan?

  And then you choose the wrong mom.

• 18:18Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 18:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:19Andy Greenwald?

  And then your dad's out back grilling, and he's like, don't worry about it. Your new mom's fine. That was disturbing.

• 18:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:27Andy Greenwald?

  And then, perhaps most disturbing of all, was there was a red-band trailer for the film Digger.

• 18:33Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 18:35Andy Greenwald?

  Can't wait to see a rollicking political comedy made by a man who has evinced no sense of humor across his 20-year career.

• 18:42Chris Ryan?

  In RuPaul's, yeah, okay.

• 18:43Andy Greenwald?

  Cruz likes to laugh.

• 18:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he chuckles.

• 18:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, he doesn't chuckle, he brays. He throws his head back and commits.

• 18:49Speaker 00

  Hi there, I am fully charged and here to tell you, Toy Story 5 is now on Disney Plus.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  It's been too long, cowboy.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  Woody, Buzz, and Jesse are back for a brand-new adventure with some seriously cool new tech. What?

• 19:03Speaker 02

  Holy butterscotch!

• 19:05Speaker 00

  You said it, Jesse. So, save your batteries and watch the global phenomenon at home. And the best part, it's perfect for the whole family. Power up your movie night and watch Disney and Pixar's Toy Story 5, now streaming on Disney Plus, rated PG.

• 19:20Chris Ryan?

  Couple of other things.

• 19:21Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 19:21Chris Ryan?

  We smoked a little bit of the Feige pack last episode.

• 19:24Andy Greenwald?

  There's gonna be some news.

• 19:25Chris Ryan?

  About probably the X-Men cast.

• 19:27Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe they might throw a few more actors into Doomsday.

• 19:29Chris Ryan?

  But he did some interview, Feige did an interview recently, which got aggregated.

• 19:34Andy Greenwald?

  They're doing Spider-Man press.

• 19:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and he talked to, I think, a Chinese website, a Chinese news outlet, and was like...

• 19:38Andy Greenwald?

  It's about Other Mommy.

• 19:40Chris Ryan?

  It's like, that demon is not flatulent. It's about, uh, he was talking about how they have at least the broad strokes

• 19:49Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 19:49Chris Ryan?

  of Marvel plans, Marvel Cinematic Universe plans stretching to 2042.

• 19:54Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 19:54Chris Ryan?

  So that would mean, somewhere out there, a baby has just been born that might play Cyclops in the third phase of...

• 20:03Andy Greenwald?

  Of X-Men babies.

• 20:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. No, 2042, if you're born in 2026...

• 20:07Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, you mean a baby today?

• 20:08Chris Ryan?

  Like, an 18-year-old, right?

• 20:09Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 20:10Chris Ryan?

  Be?

• 20:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. You've done it again.

• 20:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 20:14Andy Greenwald?

  Incredible. Yeah.

• 20:15Chris Ryan?

  So, uh, I thought that this was interesting because...

• 20:21Chris Ryan?

  I think I've been a little hard on him.

• 20:23Andy Greenwald?

  Is this the zag?

• 20:24Chris Ryan?

  It's not a zag.

• 20:25Andy Greenwald?

  Did you speak to your constituents?

• 20:26Chris Ryan?

  But I was thinking about, I was listening to Midnight Boys and they were arguing back and forth about the Doomsday trailer. And I will say this to his credit, Feige's credit. I don't like his visual sensibility that he is obviously, you cannot blame anyone else but him for why these movies look the way they look.

• 20:43Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 20:44Chris Ryan?

  And in some ways, I understand because I think that a lot of the stuff in Marvel movies needs to be rendered with CGI. Like, I don't think you can, you can't really do practical effect.

• 20:55Andy Greenwald?

  Well, as Chloe Jow learned.

• 20:58Chris Ryan?

  Yes, that's true.

• 20:59Andy Greenwald?

  She tried.

• 21:00Chris Ryan?

  But you add up a lot of the curveballs that have been thrown their way between the insistence that they pump Disney Plus full of streaming TV, then the pullback from that. Covid and the strikes and the tragic passing of Chadwick Boseman as Black Panther and the left turn they had to make after Jonathan Majors became unemployable to their mind and Hollywood at large, it seems. They have had to adjust a lot of these things, you know? Now, I don't always, obviously, I don't, but I guess like when I was listening to Van and Charles and Jomi and Steve, I was like, you know what? This has been a tough, like, last couple of years.

• 21:45Chris Ryan?

  And so maybe that has something to do with why Doomsday is like, we have to like, kind of clear the decks, which is now sort of what he is leading with as the headline of. He's like, these movies will set us up for the next generation of Marvel movies.

• 22:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, I think you touched on this a little bit last week. Like, I, the negativity and concern that I feel for Doomsday coming off of that bleak looking trailer has nothing to say about my optimism for starting clean slate with a good cast of the X-Men with a good director in.

• 22:22Chris Ryan?

  Jake Schreier.

• 22:23Andy Greenwald?

  Jake Schreier and Sonny from Who's Done Beef and Joanna Calo.

• 22:29Chris Ryan?

  It's like the Thunderballs crew, yeah.

• 22:30Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's exciting and I think it could be a good movie. I mean, you know, I saw you say that you don't remember where you were during Fantastic Four, you were traveling.

• 22:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:39Andy Greenwald?

  And you were home. I liked that movie. I don't think it necessarily works as a, I don't think it's a great work of art. I don't think it's necessarily like the most thrilling building block to what's coming out later this year, but I liked it and I think they understood, he hasn't lost his ability to understand at their root what's interesting and compelling about a lot of these characters.

• 22:59Chris Ryan?

  Do you think that part of the problem with some of the films that have come out, and I'm talking specifically about FF, which, you know, I think you enjoyed the specificity of like the idea of this kind of retrofuturistic stuff in the family. But that's a movie where, I mean, honestly, like, it does seem like Fantastic Four is a little bit of, it's got a little bit of a hex on it, like, over the years, you know, as they've.

• 23:23Andy Greenwald?

  It's a tough one.

• 23:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and it's, it's one of those things where we're like, this has so much name recognition, why, why aren't people coming to this movie? But I wonder whether it was a little stuck between stations, which a lot of these films recently have been, where you can't really confidently push an entire phase or cinematic universe forward because you're not entirely sure how to get where you ultimately want to go, which is X-Men.

• 23:49Andy Greenwald?

  And, yeah, and so they learn with Supergirl. Like, you can't just count on each step you take being sturdy.

• 23:54Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And then, on the other hand, because you still have to make some gestures towards that, you can't just have like its own, it can't be Ant-Man, you know what I mean? Where it's like, we're gonna have fun and do a caper movie. You know, you have to build up all this, like, meet these people and understand what they've accomplished. What's their, what's their new kind of object, object that they have to overcome? And then where does that leave not only them, but a dozen other characters? So I have sympathy for, because I just don't think anyone's ever really tried to do this before in the history of movies.

• 24:27Andy Greenwald?

  Well, they've never done it in either direction. What was incredibly successful and ultimately exhilarating was when they started making the Marvel movies as Marvel Studios that led to the Avengers. They wanted to get there, but they were not sure that they would. And they understood that each step they took would have to be taken with great care and make a case for itself on its own in case they had to rip up the playbook and change their minds. And there were even early missteps, quote unquote, but like, you mentioned Ant-Man, like, the origin of Ant-Man is interesting because that was Edgar Wright coming in for a meeting and being like, I want to do something crazy. And then being like, we love it, go. And then realizing, actually, this thing that we're very delicately trying to build doesn't have the ability to do that.

• 25:12Andy Greenwald?

  We have to bring it closer to the house style. We have to make it a little bit more in line with everything else. It's not, Gunn is doing something different by putting Clayface into this so early, I think. What was incredible about the Marvel run is that then they did it. And then they were stuck in a completely new, unique circumstance, which was, how do we do it again? And everything that came out after Endgame was building towards another Avengers event movie, no matter what. And you could feel it. You could feel it in the pressure placed on each one, on the greater impact of the missteps. And then how do you, I mean, it just depends what side you're looking at it on. If you're looking at it from a, like, corporate and creative management, getting this movie

• 25:55Andy Greenwald?

  into theaters this year with Robert Downey Jr., with the Russo Brothers, with all this cast returning is a remarkable feat since they were, had to go zero to 60 with it. Right? I mean, they didn't.

• 26:06Chris Ryan?

  It's sincerely hard.

• 26:06Andy Greenwald?

  It's wild in the week since that trailer dropped, or a few days now since that trailer dropped, seeing how many people are posting the Infinity War trailer and being like, goddamn, we used to be a society.

• 26:18Chris Ryan?

  For sure. And some of that, what they're reacting to is how, how those characters felt. And I think that it's, it's also with hindsight, like, that we go back and say, like, this, I mean, yes, that was, those, those two films felt like such huge events. But I think that The Midnight Boys really touched on this, where it's like, the relationship we had to those characters was far deeper and well curated over the course of the first few phases of Marvel movies, which also had their missteps. You know, we forget that we had Thor: Dark World and we had, you know, a Black Widow movie that went into the abyss and.

• 26:52Andy Greenwald?

  But the charm of Endgame was that it made Dark World incredibly important.

• 26:55Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And. I guess Black Widow came after Avengers, right? Yeah.

• 26:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, but I think to me, it's what you said. It's like, do you have an organic relationship with actors and roles that build over time? Do you're excited to see them again? Or do you have this forced artificiality nostalgia that all of the multiversal movies essentially have become? Whether you're wink-winking at how silly it is that Chris Evans is playing Johnny Storm or you are somehow building a major plank of your billion-dollar, hopeful movie rocketship on the imagined fucking Mandela effect emotion of Channing Tatum playing Gambit? Which I insist on reminding our audience, never fucking happened.

• 27:41Chris Ryan?

  Never actually happened.

• 27:41Andy Greenwald?

  That movie never happened. And him doing that in Deadpool was a kind of another one of these wink-wink jokes of how fun it is to play with how much we know about these movies even beyond the movies themselves. But now, it was supposed to be some sort of emotional crescendo moment in the trailer that he's fighting Chong Chi? And I'm like, we don't know this person and we don't care. Do you know this term? I love this, in the, the idea of glup shido.

• 28:09Chris Ryan?

  I don't know this term at all. Is this a?

• 28:11Andy Greenwald?

  This is a term that has been coined to make fun of people who are like, really obsessing over the minutia of Star Wars characters. Being like, what is this character's name? If you're a real fan, they're like, ah, they brought back glup shido.

• 28:23Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 28:24Andy Greenwald?

  And I think that Channing Tatum's Gambit is the ultimate glup shido of like, there are, you know, dozens of people doing the fucking Leo DiCaprio meme when he's doing it. But also Gambit himself is such like a 90s kid-coded, like, that was the coolest thing ever, when there was a Cajun guy wearing body armor who threw flaming.

• 28:45Chris Ryan?

  Playing cards at people?

• 28:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. And then I would just like, turn the page of the comic and take another spoonful of your fucking pasta salad, mayonnaise smeared pages. And like, that's cool, but like, we're adults now, you know? So like, I think all of this is to say that the idea of rushing to the multiplex to see something that is designed to clear the decks does not feel good. Like, I think that there is some rebellion against that, in addition to the one that you articulated very well and Sean did as well and Amanda did as well, which is like, we just saw what ambition can look like when married to some version of reality.

• 29:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and James Hibbert wrote a really cool piece in The Hollywood Reporter that identified that I, people want to feel like maybe the thing they're seeing on screen feels real. And that there's like a pivot away from, I don't mind if everything in this was pre-vis rendered, you know? It has nothing to do with Avatar and like, that's a different kind of level, I think, of marrying technology with filmmaking, regardless of how I feel about it. Like, it's obviously a huge achievement, but I think that.

• 30:04Chris Ryan?

  He, you know, when you hear about Nolan using mirrors so that actors can still feel like they're having an intimate scene when there's massive IMAX cameras blocking their eye lines. And the actors being like, it was such a genius, using fucking mirrors. It's like, like, it's so, it's so old Hollywood to do something like that, that when you see, and you know, this might be Alan Cumming being cheeky, saying like, I don't know who I was speaking to or what I was talking about, or who else is in the room with me when I'm speaking. And you see these scenes in the trailer, which, again, to the credit I give Resident Evil, like, the stuff that's in the trailer for Doomsday might happen in the first 15 minutes of Doomsday, and all those people die.

• 30:46Andy Greenwald?

  Or might not be in it.

• 30:47Chris Ryan?

  Or they get incurred out of, you know.

• 30:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and I, and I think there's like, understood things that will prob, most likely be in this movie.

• 30:54Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 30:55Andy Greenwald?

  Like Deadpool, like multiple Spider-Men, like, they're not giving all that away. But, but it's weird how much, we're being held prisoner by this, like, the most mocked still from the trailer is just this awful blocking negative space room of C-list heroes.

• 31:10Chris Ryan?

  All of them standing around, yeah.

• 31:11Andy Greenwald?

  And people have frozen that frame and pointed out the giant doom-shaped hole in the middle, because they don't want to give the plot away that he's most likely, if it's anything like some of the Hickman comics, when he's introduced, he's like, I am going to save reality.

• 31:23Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 31:24Andy Greenwald?

  And I need your help.

• 31:25Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 31:26Andy Greenwald?

  As opposed to then I'm also evil, or whatever.

• 31:27Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 31:28Andy Greenwald?

  But, and, and, you know, I want to, we will talk more about The Odyssey in a moment, I'm sure, but like, absolutely, two of my favorite, favorite scenes in the movie were examples of old-fashioned artistry and restraint, which are just out of fashion, and certainly hard to argue for if you are not one of the few directors who can put butts in seats. But like, the Cersei transformation scene is theatrical.

• 31:56Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 31:57Andy Greenwald?

  And it's, it's physical, and it's interesting, and the way that the camera moves contributes to what we see and what we don't see in ways that you understand that it's quote-unquote "artificial," but it feels organic, because someone's making the decision to move the camera and show, that's a human body, oh, now it's not.

• 32:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 32:13Andy Greenwald?

  And the other one that I love, and we'll talk more about this scene in a moment, I bet, but the siren scene is one of the best moments in the film for any number of reasons, but one of the things that I've been thinking about ever since I saw it was, you just get a glimpse, there's just some figures on the rocks.

• 32:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, well, it's actually got a sense of perspective, because you're rooted in Odysseus' experience.

• 32:33Andy Greenwald?

  And, and it's more powerful, because we don't have to see it.

• 32:36Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 32:37Andy Greenwald?

  It's fine.

• 32:38Chris Ryan?

  One last thing, and this dovetails with us kind of finally figuring out, when do you want to do season two of The Agency wrap-up? Would you like to do it Monday?

• 32:46Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 32:47Chris Ryan?

  Or would you like to do it next Thursday?

• 32:49Andy Greenwald?

  Have you finished the season?

• 32:50Chris Ryan?

  I have got three episodes left.

• 32:52Andy Greenwald?

  This has been incredibly hard to talk about, because the momentum of the season builds really, really well.

• 33:00Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:01Andy Greenwald?

  And I, you know, when we did our top 10s of the year so far, I think we both had it low on our list, because we hadn't finished it. I think it is.

• 33:09Chris Ryan?

  We also have like, a consciousness of like, how it will probably go.

• 33:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, we know a lot of the things.

• 33:13Chris Ryan?

  The Bureau.

• 33:14Andy Greenwald?

  But, but as the season has gone on, it has gotten stronger in its, in its, I think in its pacing, in its cumulative storytelling, and then also just like, the, the, the creator's understanding of what they've got. Like, there were a lot of moments in season one where because of the necessity of like, churning this plot, that it hadn't really found its legs in terms of like, inter-office dynamics, or like, how are we going to play these smaller scenes that can be invented? And they are feeling themselves in this season in a way that is like, really, really engaging. We could do either day. I'm, I'm, I've crossed the halfway point, I'm, I'm rolling.

• 33:48Chris Ryan?

  I think we should do Monday, if you can.

• 33:49Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 33:50Chris Ryan?

  Just because I think that would be a good podcast.

• 33:53Andy Greenwald?

  My goal is to do a good podcast.

• 33:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:58Andy Greenwald?

  Have I led on otherwise?

• 33:59Chris Ryan?

  No, I think we should lead with joy. That's what we should do in 2026.

• 34:03Andy Greenwald?

  And I do think we need to talk about it sooner rather than later, because as you're about to mention, I don't feel bullish about the future of the show, and I wish I could.

• 34:10Chris Ryan?

  Well, it's interesting that you should say that.

• 34:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:13Chris Ryan?

  Because I would like to talk to you about the Taylor Sheridan-ing of Jez Butterworth. Jez Butterworth, for people who do not know, is an accomplished British playwright.

• 34:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 34:24Chris Ryan?

  And a screenwriter, has worked on, is huge, is, is sort of, big, big play that he did that is, you know, totally an awards magnet, was Jerusalem with Mark Rylance.

• 34:37Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, his play of his theater, yeah.

• 34:39Chris Ryan?

  Uh, screenwriting-wise, you know, I think he's done.

• 34:42Andy Greenwald?

  He's done some big stuff.

• 34:44Chris Ryan?

  A lot of stuff, but like, did he do any Bonds?

• 34:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 34:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 34:48Andy Greenwald?

  Spectre, Edge of Tomorrow is him.

• 34:50Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 34:51Andy Greenwald?

  Um, Black Mass.

• 34:52Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:53Andy Greenwald?

  Ford, and then he, and then he works with Mangled a lot. He did Ford, Ford v Ferrari, and he did the, that, I mean, we don't talk about this, but the last Indiana Jones movie.

• 35:01Chris Ryan?

  I mean.

• 35:02Andy Greenwald?

  He wrote.

• 35:02Chris Ryan?

  Of the problems with that, probably.

• 35:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 35:05Chris Ryan?

  We're not all together script-based, you know?

• 35:07Andy Greenwald?

  He is also the writer of the Beatles cinematic event.

• 35:10Chris Ryan?

  Oh, the four Beatles movies. Okay, so obviously somebody who is prolific, which helps.

• 35:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 35:16Chris Ryan?

  Because he has signed up to do another show for Paramount Plus, also from 101 Studios, which is the studio behind Sheridan stuff, also, most of it was on Paramount Plus.

• 35:26Andy Greenwald?

  We established also that with his brother, he writes Mobland.

• 35:28Chris Ryan?

  John Henry.

• 35:29Andy Greenwald?

  And The Agency.

• 35:30Chris Ryan?

  That's what I was getting to.

• 35:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 35:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, so he, he is now, season two of Mobland is coming imminently, they had a trailer come out, that's obviously been in the news, because of, is Tom Hardy on or off the show if they do a third season? The Agency, we're going to be talking about on Monday, we love to make a commitment to make The Agency, seems like you should say, we think this will be a grower, and people will, by the fourth season, be like, this is my favorite show, which is kind of how The Bureau worked.

• 35:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 35:59Chris Ryan?

  But, uh, so far, no word on whether or not The Agency has been renewed for season three, which honestly is a bummer, and has dampened my like, maybe relentless spirit to finish in a timely manner, you know? Although, if it was a week-to-week show, I think I'd be still on time.

• 36:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 36:16Chris Ryan?

  Now he's going to do another show.

• 36:17Andy Greenwald?

  Why not?

• 36:18Chris Ryan?

  Called Laird, L-A-I-R-D, starring Kenneth Branagh, and it sounds an awful, awful lot like Scottish Yellowstone. It is, uh, the logline is, a proud Scottish family man standing up to an American billionaire who wants to buy up Scottish land, which I think is very funny, given Paramount's sort of precarious position with the Warner Brothers deal, and the Department of Justice.

• 36:41Andy Greenwald?

  They're diversifying their portfolio.

• 36:42Chris Ryan?

  Are making a show that kind of sounds like when Trump came and bought a bunch of golf courses.

• 36:47Andy Greenwald?

  Listen, two things. One, you got to prepare for after the midterms.

• 36:51Chris Ryan?

  We don't know for sure that the billionaire isn't the good guy in this show.

• 36:55Andy Greenwald?

  That's my next point. My next point is like, what if Local Hero is actually about how it's better to turn things into golf courses?

• 37:02Chris Ryan?

  Someone who stands in the way of progress and good golf. Uh, but this was largely like, the thrust of Yellowstone, where you take an incredible natural environment, and in this case, the Scottish Highlands, I imagine, uh, and you put a major star, Branagh, Costner, and you build like, a drama around his trying to save his family and his land. It's a very interesting kind of, I can't decide where I want to start with. First of all, it's very interesting that they're like, making new Sheridans, you know?

• 37:37Andy Greenwald?

  Without, you mean, without him?

• 37:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and that he, I mean, I wouldn't even be surprised if he gets a piece of 101 Studios shows, but.

• 37:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 37:45Chris Ryan?

  I thought it was interesting that as he is going to Peacock, as he is doing the Call of Duty movie, and, you know, I think Lioness is coming back in a week or two, and...

• 37:54Andy Greenwald?

  Don't act like you don't know.

• 37:55Chris Ryan?

  Uh, yeah.

• 37:56Andy Greenwald?

  Who, who among us?

• 37:58Chris Ryan?

  Well, now the enemy is within.

• 38:01Andy Greenwald?

  You've got an ICal.

• 38:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:03Andy Greenwald?

  Alert.

• 38:04Chris Ryan?

  Um, it's interesting that they're looking and recruiting and fostering and scouting like, other people, but what I want to know is like, how do you write this many episodes of television?

• 38:16Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I, I don't know. There are people who are super prolific. It's, it's almost hard to interrogate this stuff without, A, like, running afoul of like, Writers Guild illicit shenanigans, you know, or like, accusing people of that, but B.

• 38:30Chris Ryan?

  It's worth noting that in England, it's not uncommon for the creator of a show to also write every episode.

• 38:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, I, I would also say that like, in a world in which David E. Kelly did what he did for all of the 90s and 2000s, like.

• 38:41Chris Ryan?

  And Sorkin, although.

• 38:43Andy Greenwald?

  Sorkin used external, I mean, who among, we can't blame people.

• 38:46Chris Ryan?

  He was motivated.

• 38:47Andy Greenwald?

  He was motivated. He found, he found things that helped.

• 38:49Chris Ryan?

  As the TSA found.

• 38:51Andy Greenwald?

  As the TSA found. They found a lot of things. Um, but, yes, to your other point about like, the British model, like, until recently, the British model was, the creator was also, didn't really have the term showrunner, had the term lead writer or head writer. And a writer's room, such as they existed, would be the lead writer calling his or her mates, who they used to do theater together, in for like, a week, and they would sit around, and they would.

• 39:19Chris Ryan?

  Have a sesh.

• 39:20Andy Greenwald?

  Have a sesh, um, you know, get a bag out, bag is Tesco, of, you know, some breakfast sandwiches, and, um...

• 39:29Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's get it back in, actually. Sorry, I'm looking.

• 39:33Chris Ryan?

  Are you talking about Tesco or cocaine?

• 39:34Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I was trying to do, trying to bridge the gap of some of British people's greatest passions, you know? And then, and then they would contribute, you know, for a week, but that all of the episodes would be credited to the person who then took those ideas and consolidated them and wrote the scripts.

• 39:47Chris Ryan?

  I see.

• 39:48Andy Greenwald?

  The American model is becoming more prevalent there, especially as more American productions are based there. But anyway, I'm not, I don't know why I'm trying to like, explain the Butterworths. I mean, they also, they're, they're the brotherworths and maybe they just work super well together.

• 40:01Chris Ryan?

  They might just be like, we don't look at Twitter, we just write, you know?

• 40:04Andy Greenwald?

  That's so sick.

• 40:06Chris Ryan?

  Twitter's been really good for like, five weeks.

• 40:07Andy Greenwald?

  There's been a lot of good jokes on there.

• 40:10Chris Ryan?

  Anyway.

• 40:11Andy Greenwald?

  But the other, I think the other piece of it that I find interesting is, well, one, I'm just, can Brian not do the accent? I mean, I'm not putting anything past him. He is Northern Irish by birth.

• 40:19Chris Ryan?

  I mean, he's been playing Roman Abramovich for like 12 years, it feels like, so I'll be curious to see how he adjusts to Scottish.

• 40:24Andy Greenwald?

  I think he's probably up to it.

• 40:25Chris Ryan?

  Very good, yeah.

• 40:26Andy Greenwald?

  But the other thing, though, is I do think it's interesting to call it, you can call it Sheridan-ing or tailoring, but Paramount, the powers that be at Paramount clearly believe that their, that this model is expandable beyond Taylor's specific purview, but that delivering a 10-episode chunk of something kind of beautiful and soap operatic works for their audience, that that is something that they can understand as a brand of, like, part of the services brand as opposed to the brand of one filmmaker.

• 41:02Chris Ryan?

  Do you think adding a third show to his portfolio bodes well or poorly for the agency's future? The argument for well would be they are making a massive commitment to Jez Butterworth. When Taylor Sheridan started, he did the first season of Yellowstone, I think it was 18. By 21, he was doing 1883 and Mayor of Kingstown.

• 41:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 41:23Chris Ryan?

  22 was 1923, Tulsa King, which I think he was on and off of, as he was with Lawman Bass Reeves. And then he had another push of like, Lioness and Landman.

• 41:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 41:37Chris Ryan?

  And then 26, he did The Madison and Dutton Ranch. And while all this is happening, he is heavily involved with or fully writing other seasons of the aforementioned shows. Butterworth, in the last couple of years, Agency premieres in the 20, in 2024 with 10 episodes of that. The following year, Mobland goes up, 10 episodes of that, I believe. He wrote all of those with his brother. And now this year, another 10 episodes of The Agency, I think Mobland, I think, is coming back this year. So that would be 20 episodes of TV that he has produced this, this year. Do you think?

• 42:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 42:13Chris Ryan?

  There's a sign that this is like, the agency didn't work, but we believe in you? Or do you think it's like, hey, we're, we're just in your business?

• 42:19Andy Greenwald?

  I think they're in his business, and I think there's nothing in his CV that suggests that he and his brother couldn't do a third season of The Agency if it got greenlit.

• 42:26Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 42:27Andy Greenwald?

  Particularly because it is a different job than these others. It is a lot more than like, scenography, but they do have the broad outlines of plot, so they can sit down and be like, here's what we have to accomplish and here's how we, so the job becomes dialogue, specificity, and making it in the voices of their, you know, slightly evolving characters. I'm, I'm very concerned about the future of The Agency, but in ways that are incredibly opaque and frustrating and indicative of what TV is these days.

• 42:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 42:56Andy Greenwald?

  It's, I, I still cannot fathom how expensive this show is to make and produce. The talent on screen, the location shooting on screen and across multiple countries, the producers involved, all the people getting paid for every episode, that's kind of an under-reported thing or not as well-understood aspect of where the money goes.

• 43:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:16Andy Greenwald?

  When you see, you think that, oh, this show must have had its budget slashed, not necessarily. If there are upwards of eight executive producers and one of them is named George Clooney, like, everybody's getting a taste of everything that gets made.

• 43:29Andy Greenwald?

  And then it's a question of like, return on investment as well and regime, because this show survived somehow out of, you know, this was going to be a Showtime original, and now it's, you know, a binge drop on a random weekend on Paramount Plus. So it's rare for shows to thrive across administrations, let's say. And, and then I think the fact that, clearly from our mentions, people are finding the show and loving it, but I do, I don't know if it has inspired what I would call a hot fandom.

• 44:01Chris Ryan?

  I don't know, I don't. I think Paramount Plus is also the other streaming service, it, for a lot of people who listen to us, is like, you know, that, there are some who are like, I, you know, enjoy the Taylor Sheridan content or whatever. There's a lot of people like, I don't have Paramount and I, I don't, because I'm not interested in Taylor, and that seems to be the main thrust.

• 44:20Andy Greenwald?

  Or UFC or whatever.

• 44:20Chris Ryan?

  Or Elsbeth or whatever else they've got on it. So, I don't know, I, I think he can make it.

• 44:29Chris Ryan?

  You know, The Agency went up June 21st, they released all 10 episodes. You could make the argument that they are waiting 10 weeks to announce that. There, there is some idea of like, you know, people watching it in a week-to-week format or once a week, and we're waiting to get the cumulative number back?

• 44:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, my guess would be that there has been a lot of action behind the scenes trying to salvage a future for the show.

• 44:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:54Andy Greenwald?

  And whether that means making the case for doing a third season in a different way, or budgetarily different, or if it means the studios actively shopping it to see if it would fit better with a different network. I think all of that is possible and all of that is in play.

• 45:08Chris Ryan?

  How often do we talk about that versus how often it happens?

• 45:12Andy Greenwald?

  It happens very rarely.

• 45:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's very complicated. We'll do Agency on Monday.

• 45:15Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 45:16Chris Ryan?

  I'm happy to do it.

• 45:18Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk about The Odyssey. Now, Andy has already mentioned a couple of, of his favorite scenes. It goes without saying that this is spoilers for The Odyssey. It seems like many of you have seen it already.

• 45:29Andy Greenwald?

  Seems like it's doing fairly well.

• 45:30Chris Ryan?

  Just straw pull, anybody, who else in the room has seen it? Kai, Sarah, not Kai?

• 45:35Speaker 06

  I'm trying to see it in IMAX, okay? It's a hot ticket.

• 45:38Chris Ryan?

  It is a hot ticket.

• 45:38Speaker 06

  I have tickets to go see it next Friday.

• 45:41Andy Greenwald?

  I, I have to say, that was cool, like, that I, I'm not really, you know, I'm not really a format snob, but I was like, I, if, if given the opportunity and living in a city that I believe has more IMAX projectors than, than most, let's say if not all, I very, as you learned too casually, said, I'm just gonna go see it tomorrow on the, a weekday morning.

• 46:03Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 46:03Andy Greenwald?

  And like, these 7:00 AM screenings were sold out.

• 46:06Chris Ryan?

  Yes, it's, it's a tough ticket to get. I went, so I went once at CityWalk, which is the IMAX 70, and I saw it once on just a quote-unquote, regular IMAX, and it's weird. I think I preferred the second screening, possibly because a lot of, I knew where I wanted to lean in and hear a line of dialogue that I may have missed. You know, there is, there's a scene early on when Penelope and Odysseus are in bed and talking about like, he's gonna have to leave, and she's just like, what if we like, ran away? And what would happen? And.

• 46:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 46:42Chris Ryan?

  It is crucial to understanding a bunch of, you know, the state of their marriage, the state of Ithaca, Agamemnon, saying this is about Helen of Troy, but it's in fact.

• 46:54Andy Greenwald?

  It's about trade routes.

• 46:55Chris Ryan?

  It's about trade routes, yeah. So there's a lot of stuff that I picked up dialogue-wise the second time around. The screen was also, maybe it's a, it's a totally a personal preference thing. I like to see, like, the whole screen kind of in my static line of view.

• 47:12Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 47:12Chris Ryan?

  Rather than scanning up and down the way you do at CityWalk 70. I even had that problem sometimes in the Cenarum Dome, which is blessedly reopening here in Los Angeles, where you would be kind of panicked scanning yourself across the horizontal line. I don't know why we're getting into aspect ratios.

• 47:31Andy Greenwald?

  Exciting.

• 47:33Chris Ryan?

  I was very excited for you to see this movie. How did, what did you think?

• 47:36Andy Greenwald?

  Can we talk aspect ratio? No, I mean, I did, I don't know enough to know the difference, and I also don't, didn't know enough that there are hotspots for sound or not sound, especially like, if you're not in a theater personally curated by the Nolan Family Trust.

• 47:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:50Andy Greenwald?

  So we were kind of like, upper left, because those are the seats that were left.

• 47:54Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 47:54Andy Greenwald?

  And so we were seated directly underneath.

• 47:56Chris Ryan?

  That'll blow your ears out.

• 47:57Andy Greenwald?

  The speaker.

• 47:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:58Andy Greenwald?

  Which was very worrisome when you're watching trailers and also like, you know, Gigi Fruit commercials that are not exactly like, delicately. And then when the movie starts, it was cool because I was like, wow, they really did a lot of ADR of dudes, you know, bathing in the background of the scene, or like, wow, the Temple of Athena is a, is a busy place.

• 48:18Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 48:18Andy Greenwald?

  So there was a lot of that, but it was clearer than I had expected. But again, these theaters, you could have the right format, but there was still like, the line of the seats in front of me was doing what people are saying the 35 millimeter print does, so I was losing the bottom of, of the frame. Anyway, it was, I, I think it's tough to articulate any strong opinion about Nolan because he is an industry unto himself, and anything that he does at this point, particularly a movie like this, is worthy of consideration. Like, it was such a great experience to go with my daughter, who went for three reasons.

• 48:58Andy Greenwald?

  None of them were IMAX or spending the day with me. They were named Tom Holland, Zendaya, and Greek mythology.

• 49:05Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I thought maybe.

• 49:06Andy Greenwald?

  Of which she's passionate about all three.

• 49:07Chris Ryan?

  Our Pat's got.

• 49:08Andy Greenwald?

  She likes, she likes him, but she's not like a, a Twihard, you know, she doesn't really have the, she liked him in, in good time, mostly. That's, that's like her.

• 49:18Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 49:18Andy Greenwald?

  Way in.

• 49:21Andy Greenwald?

  So it was really great to have the experience and then have the like, the long drive home. Because we did not see it nearby.

• 49:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:28Andy Greenwald?

  To talk about it and then to keep talking about it, like, how great an experience is that? Not just for dads and daughters, but for those of us alive these days who can go share something with people.

• 49:38Chris Ryan?

  I think it's the gifts that he gives, is that his films, whether they are. Espionage puzzle boxes like Tenet or, you know, photorealistic war movies like Dunkirk or space movies or whatever they are. You wind up just like chewing on them for weeks afterwards and wanting to re-see the, to see them again and revisit them immediately because you're like, did I miss something here?

• 50:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 50:05Chris Ryan?

  I wonder how the second act feels once I know where it's going. And there's a lot of like, I think when, you know, sometimes with, with his movies, the first run through

• 50:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 50:15Chris Ryan?

  is just almost like a purely physical experience or visceral experience.

• 50:19Andy Greenwald?

  Can be.

• 50:20Chris Ryan?

  Oh my God, like my hearing is shot. Like, I feel like I've been on these mountains and been on these boats and like been thrown against the waves. And now that I can see it, I'm watching like, oh, this is the first time Odysseus acted like a prick here in this like little scene.

• 50:34Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 50:35Chris Ryan?

  You know what I mean? And, you know, he, he obviously had this arrogance or what makes Penelope say that at this moment? And like, you know, obviously then I think, you know, some of the greater themes and the more contemporary themes that Nolan's playing with start to emerge. Did you? Did you feel like you were able to, or like discern like how you liked the movie beyond like that was a hell of an experience?

• 50:59Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think I am not as big of a Nolan head as all other men in their 40s who have microphones.

• 51:07Chris Ryan?

  I think there, you'd be surprised. And I also think that there is like, there are Nolan guys who are like, I'm a Dark Knight guy. There are Nolan guys who are like, I like Memento and Prestige. There are Nolan guys who are like, the last three movies are his best.

• 51:18Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I, I think he is a fascinating filmmaker. I find him so, I mean, he, he doesn't have a funny bone in his body. And I've, and him talking about how he really likes MacGruber reminds me of Steve Carell talking about women's breasts and 40 year old virgin.

• 51:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:34Andy Greenwald?

  I find his movies, they leave me very cold generally. So I did not, I enjoy the spectacle. I do not feel particularly transported by them, except in some occasions.

• 51:46Chris Ryan?

  So you like, never forget you're watching a movie is what you're saying. Like you're not like, I've lost my, my sort of

• 51:52Andy Greenwald?

  Totally.

• 51:52Chris Ryan?

  inner brain here.

• 51:54Andy Greenwald?

  I found Oppenheimer really, really compelling because of all of his movies about lost men who have to work all day and only feel slightly bad about it. It, it is about someone who loses himself in technicality and science, for lack of a better word, and struggles over that being his version of soul. And that I think is a very autobiographical thing as opposed to like, in a different way than Interstellar, which is just about how like, you know, it is hard to, to, to work on location sometimes. But that's, but, but I, but I, but I found that really interesting and compelling in Oppenheimer. And also, one of the ways that I would, eager to continue the conversation is to lower the temperature from, and you don't do this, but like,

• 52:38Andy Greenwald?

  just because he made a movie doesn't mean it's the best movie ever made or the best movie he's ever made. You know, so I, I think that when you get to think about all these movies in conversation with each other and where his muse is taking him and where his relationship with commerce and the town is taking him is very interesting. All that to say, like, I thought that at its heart, this movie was so wildly audacious because it's fucking nuts to be like, I'm gonna do the epic of ancient Greek battle poetry.

• 53:05Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 53:05Andy Greenwald?

  And make it about, um, modern life in the way that he did. And also it's a swords and sandals epic, which is incredibly out of fashion and has a long history on the screen and is often campy, right? Or, or, or leans in other directions than a, than a typical Nolan

• 53:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:24Andy Greenwald?

  movie. That said, I also thought some of this was ludicrous in good ways.

• 53:29Chris Ryan?

  I kind of want to know what you thought was ludicrous.

• 53:32Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, there were just moments when I was watching these actors, some of whom I thought were giving it their game best, but were wildly miscast, speaking like they're in the fucking 10 commandments, but then, you know, the music's like and it's about like how we should feel things. And I'm like, that's a horse dog. Like, that's a big wooden horse. Like, I know you could talk about how you were in there bleeding and shitting on each other, but like, it's absurd on some level.

• 53:57Chris Ryan?

  What do you mean that they?

• 53:58Andy Greenwald?

  Well, no, I mean, just like, think about what we're talking about or like how I, I, like, the movie Pattinson was in was my favorite movie, I would say, because he, I mean, you saw this, like, you, you saw it and he's talked about it. But also you see it on screen that his, his, uh, North Star for the part was James Woods in Casino.

• 54:18Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 54:19Andy Greenwald?

  Which is such a great pull and exactly right and fun and funny and more alive in some ways than some of the other characters.

• 54:28Chris Ryan?

  Pattinson could be very knowingly full of shit in interviews, but he also made a very compelling case for why, is it Antinous? Like, he's like, she should have chosen me. She should have chose me. Like, I, I like, he was like,

• 54:40Andy Greenwald?

  He had a lot to offer.

• 54:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he has like, I was making the case and he was like, I don't think he had a hard time believing.

• 54:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 54:45Chris Ryan?

  He's a sniveling dickweed in the movie, but he's a fantastic villain. And also I love, there's so much maintenance going on for like, people like, who will be like, I can't, I can't portray this kind of character. I have to make, make sure like the, the, the ride is always going uphill or whatever. And Pattinson and possibly Shalhoub are my favorite dudes when it comes to just like, I'll, I'll play a piece of shit.

• 55:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 55:11Chris Ryan?

  And Batman, you know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't need to.

• 55:14Andy Greenwald?

  And the movie needed some of that, I think, in some of the other places as well.

• 55:20Andy Greenwald?

  I thought the, the, the intention.

• 55:23Chris Ryan?

  You didn't like the idiom that it was spoken in or like maybe accents, the, the fact that they chose everybody to sort of like?

• 55:28Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't like it. I was like, well, because the, the, the macro point I want to make is you can't do this without making some pretty definitive fucking choices. And I like that he made those choices. I didn't personally respond to or vibe with some of the choices. Like, I, I, I think I'm, I'm continuing to be kind of struck by how drab the movie is. Like in terms of the colors and the palette and what it looks like.

• 55:50Chris Ryan?

  It doesn't actually feel super Mediterranean.

• 55:52Andy Greenwald?

  But there was, there's a choice behind that and what he's doing. And I'm like, I find that interesting. So I want to like dig deeper and talk about it. But I didn't like, I wasn't transported by that. You know, the, the, the scenes, the scenes with the suitors just felt like one, like micrometer away from being super campy and silly. And Pattinson was yanking it in one direction, but you know, the, the heaviness of the movie and of the, of the, uh, the journey was pulling in the other direction. So it seemed a little bit in conflict with itself. But like, you know, I know Emily Wilson here, like the, the Odyssey itself, like all Greek myths is like about an ancient world in which gods were deeply flawed human actors who are fucking things up all the time. And that's interesting too.

• 56:37Andy Greenwald?

  And he intentionally didn't do that.

• 56:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:40Andy Greenwald?

  Which is a absolutely, I mean, he doesn't need me to say this, but I find that a really interesting and compelling choice.

• 56:46Chris Ryan?

  Bold choice.

• 56:47Andy Greenwald?

  And so

• 56:48Chris Ryan?

  And I honestly wonder whether or not it speaks to, whether you want to call it spiritual bankruptcy or like pragmatism on the part of contemporary audiences that they would be like probably pushing up against it if Zeus is around there like flipping boats over. You know what I mean?

• 57:02Andy Greenwald?

  Well, or Thor. I mean, I know it's a different mythology, but the, we were used to seeing gods on screen now. So it was more interesting not to, and that to make his ultimate.

• 57:10Chris Ryan?

  They had to make Thor more like Tony Stark for him to be a hugely popular character. When he was doing like dark worlds, like Odin shit.

• 57:19Andy Greenwald?

  But

• 57:19Chris Ryan?

  People were like, nah.

• 57:20Andy Greenwald?

  But Hermes is a James Gunn character, you know, like, like these, these dudes. But truly, like, the first thing Hermes did when he was born was crawl out of a cave, fuck around with Apollo's cows, which is relevant to this conversation. Kill one, take its sinews and make the first liar and just started playing music. And Apollo was like, what the fuck's up with this baby?

• 57:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 57:41Andy Greenwald?

  Why did this baby invent music and kill my cows?

• 57:44Chris Ryan?

  Was there no music before that?

• 57:46Andy Greenwald?

  Well, not, not like rocking, you know, fucking Chris Pratt with his Walkman kind of music. I'm trying to like square the circle here. But, uh, the other thing that he is so uniquely good at that we almost take it for granted is making cleverness and making the three act structure, even with like asynchronous time, like making it reveal the reason for the story. Late in the game.

• 58:08Chris Ryan?

  It's the prestige idea, like it's the basically the late period. And this is the secret and this is the reason.

• 58:16Andy Greenwald?

  And what did Einstein say to him in Oppenheimer? And in this movie, the idea that the people from the sea were them all along, that they broke the world, that he's made this movie because it's about the end of one era into another. And then the different ways in which he backed it up, like with the completely anachronistic metal armor on the giants. You know?

• 58:35Chris Ryan?

  Wow.

• 58:35Andy Greenwald?

  Being like, well, like he saw the future. And in the future, the world is literally changing. The trees are going around them and stuff.

• 58:41Chris Ryan?

  Bronze to

• 58:41Andy Greenwald?

  To, to, to, to iron metal. Like, I love that. I love the thinking behind that. But I think that, I, I'm not trying to fight what the movie is, but I think that my, my relationship with this movie in particular comes up against that, which is, I love the thinking. And then there were moments though of absolute transcendence, like, um, hiring the great clown, Bill Irwin, to be the Cyclops. And so to, to, to physicalize him and then to linger not just on his monstrosity, but on his humanity and have him weeping in pain. Like honestly, that dude's life was pretty good. He's just making cheese and apparently pretty good cheese. You know, in a different world, he just brings it to the market.

• 59:25Chris Ryan?

  He can watch the agency at the pace he pleases.

• 59:27Andy Greenwald?

  And every Saturday he, he goes to the green market in Montrose or whatever and like hawks his wares and, you know, next to the Dubai chocolate lady. And like, then he comes home with a sheep, rolls the rock back. It's fine.

• 59:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Eats two guys, falls asleep.

• 59:40Andy Greenwald?

  Well, he doesn't have

• 59:42Chris Ryan?

  I love that the soldiers are ambient to him, like as soon as he has two.

• 59:45Andy Greenwald?

  Instant sleep. It's like me turning on a movie after 9pm. A rap.

• 59:52Andy Greenwald?

  But like, this is the thing about something that is like worthwhile art, honestly, is that like, look how, I feel very excited talking about it, even though I didn't love it.

• 1:00:01Chris Ryan?

  Do you historically like movies of this scale? I remember seeing Lawrence of Arabia with you in 70 millimeter a couple of years ago. And it was, you, you had like a religious experience, but that also has different qualities than I think some, I think the closest movie. I would argue is, is to Lawrence is more like Dunkirk.

• 1:00:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, well, I think Dunkirk, I mean, this is, I'm, this is not my argument, but I saw someone make the, the argument that Dunkirk is in many ways his most successful movie because it comes preloaded with emotion and, and context.

• 1:00:31Chris Ryan?

  Well, Dunkirk is my favorite movie of his. I, I think my, I, I think the structure and his structural trickery serves the movie because in Dunkirk, everything he's doing is more or less observation. There's incredible set pieces, obviously. There are things that are happening that are absolutely extraordinary. You know, you essentially feel like a fighter pilot while watching Dunkirk, but you are never brought inside the characters. You know what I mean? Like, except for Rylance and like, you know, there are people, but like, they have, there is not a star of Dunkirk.

• 1:01:07Andy Greenwald?

  No, because you don't have to, because you understand the ticking clock means lives that existed in history and World War II and the specter of Nazism and all that. And you, you arrive with that. Whereas the challenge of these, of the more original movies, and I don't mean to say this lightly, is the movie has to do the, the work, not just of resolving the story or making you feel the tension at the end. It has to introduce you to Dom Cobb and why it's important that he does X or Y or Z thing first and become invested in him and his story.

• 1:01:34Chris Ryan?

  So you mentioned that your daughter was very into Greek mythology and I take it by the casual references to Hermes's liar that you are too.

• 1:01:42Andy Greenwald?

  Delair's book of Greek myths is probably the most important book of my life that I gave to my children.

• 1:01:47Chris Ryan?

  So were you a little annoyed that it wasn't more Greek?

• 1:01:51Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 1:01:51Chris Ryan?

  Not in like the like, you gotta cast like a Greek guy.

• 1:01:54Andy Greenwald?

  First of all, my Instagram reels are full of contemporary Greece content and island hopping, James Demetrius is a great guy. You know what I mean? Like, it looks lovely. I was, no, I, I don't care about that in terms of like authenticity or whatever.

• 1:02:07Chris Ryan?

  Wish it was more magical and mythological.

• 1:02:09Andy Greenwald?

  No, I, I, I didn't, no, I didn't feel that at all. In fact, I really, really liked also that one of the other like card pulls in the, in the end, which is that, yes, Zendaya is Athena, but really what he's seeing is the priestess.

• 1:02:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22Andy Greenwald?

  And the crimes and the way that they, and, and the idea of Zeus's law being like, you don't know who is a god or who isn't. I thought that was very elegantly done. No one can do that, what he's doing. I mean, in terms of taking the most complicated ideas, themes, narrative devices imaginable and making them feel, I mean, his movies are effortful, but it does not seem overly complicated, honestly. It communicates.

• 1:02:49Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:02:50Andy Greenwald?

  I think, and that's one of the reasons why, in addition to the spectacle and the stars, that everyone's going to see the movie, because I don't think people are leaving casuals or leaving this movie being confused by things, you know?

• 1:03:01Chris Ryan?

  I think people, people are going because every couple of years, there's something like this comes along and, you know, I remember going backwards to Jurassic Park in my life at least, you know? And perhaps in the eighties with Spielberg movies, but Jurassic was the first time that I was conscious of the fact that like, that and Batman, where it was like, no, we're all going. Like, you know, and it doesn't even matter if you can't remember the name of Triceratops or you don't know anything about Joker. Like, this, this seems to have crossed over into a, I go to the movies twice a year, but this is going to be one of them kind of thing. I think also you mentioned the stars and you mentioned.

• 1:03:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I want to talk about them.

• 1:03:37Chris Ryan?

  The, I think really wonderful promotional effort that's been made by these people because I think despite how hard it is now with like, they're like, make a pizza and hold a puppy and take a lie detector test and all the stuff that like, I think is necessary for keeping the apparatus going of, of social media based interview shows or whatever. They are always foregrounding the craft of filmmaking, the importance of how Nolan made the movie. They are telling like the same anecdotes over and over again with the same amount of gusto. And you can tell it had a profound effect on every one of them. Now, if there's somebody there who's just like, this one sucked, you know, like, I'd love to hear it.

• 1:04:19Chris Ryan?

  But all of the people involved in this movie seemed to be like, it was really special that I know that this movie is going to last for 50 years, 100 years. And people are going to be watching it and they're going to go back and be like, that was fucking incredible. And I think it had a huge thing to do with it. That being said, I was curious about some of your takes on some of the performances in the film.

• 1:04:36Andy Greenwald?

  I think, I think there's a wild disparity and I, and again, like, one of the things that's been fun about this era of star directors is that the, the company, you know, all great directors have the people they like to work with, some, some more pronounced than others, but like, seeing that go so super mainstream with like, we, and also it's a, it's a winnowing of what actors really work because the overlap between all the big movies of this year is quite striking.

• 1:05:04Chris Ryan?

  I mean, Pattinson's in five movies, Zendaya's in, in four, four or five movies. Like, it's, it's crazy.

• 1:05:09Andy Greenwald?

  But I, I like his allegiance to actors. I do think that actors love working with him, so I'm not criticizing him again. But there is, sometimes I see people, one thing you never see in a, like a PTA movie or a Wes Anderson movie, is you don't see people caught out. You know, he casts people because he sees something in them or he knows them so well and he puts them in positions to like surprise and succeed.

• 1:05:35Chris Ryan?

  Those guys are known as different.

• 1:05:37Andy Greenwald?

  Because I think his, the star often is the storytelling device and the camera and the, and the shot and everything. And so I think there were some actors who got pantsed in this movie in ways that I didn't, that I thought was a bummer. I think, I think Tom Holland is really in way over his head and I find him to be an absolutely charismatic and delightful performer. And it was rough.

• 1:06:00Chris Ryan?

  So second time around with him.

• 1:06:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:02Chris Ryan?

  Was drastically improved.

• 1:06:04Andy Greenwald?

  Really?

• 1:06:05Chris Ryan?

  Yes. First of all, you're prepared for the accent, you're prepared for the manner. So you're not like, did this, did this dude get like?

• 1:06:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:12Chris Ryan?

  Like shook or whatever? Like, it's also, I found it, I found that his performance was very consistent with the truth of his character. Which is like pretending that he's ready for something that he is completely unprepared for. Now, is that a convenient explanation for maybe a performance that doesn't like have like a ton of emotional resonance? Perhaps? He doesn't really get a moment like being strapped to the mast, you know, he doesn't get a moment.

• 1:06:37Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:39Chris Ryan?

  And he's often paired with people who are not only more seasoned performers, but older characters. So Penelope's experiences and her pain are a little bit more earned than Telemachus, who's like, I think I'm ready. You think I'm ready? And she's like, you're not fucking ready. I mean, that's the point. So I, I, I think that he has not done a lot of favors because he's got to go up against Anne Hathaway, then Burnthall, then.

• 1:07:07Andy Greenwald?

  And Pattinson.

• 1:07:07Chris Ryan?

  And then Pattinson.

• 1:07:08Andy Greenwald?

  And then be like, yeah.

• 1:07:09Chris Ryan?

  Odysseus comes back. But yes, like, I, I understand that it's not everybody's cup of, of tea.

• 1:07:15Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, there were two things that made me laugh out loud in the movie. One was, uh, what happens to Corey Hawkins? We don't need to spoil that for people, but it's like, that, that had to be intentionally funny. But the other one was when, when Odysseus and Penelope are like, okay, we're leaving, like, make sure to like, you know, don't leave the stove on, son. And he's dressed up, you know, like.

• 1:07:35Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:07:36Andy Greenwald?

  It's like, this is not going to go well for Ithaca.

• 1:07:39Chris Ryan?

  Does it go well for Ithaca? I actually don't know the sequel.

• 1:07:42Andy Greenwald?

  The larger Homer Expanded Universe. Yes, like, I also didn't fully vibe with Anne Hathaway's performance. I didn't fully, I, I didn't. There were, there were, I, I'm sorry to say it in this podcast, but I thought Burnthall was pretty ridiculous, um, doing the same thing, um, in this movie. I thought some people popped in smaller ways, like, um, Samantha Morton as Cersei is awesome. Leguizamo is just, I loved. I love because that's showing us someone, I mean, this was, in small ways, this is John Leguizamo's digger. Because turns out he's like 65 and just really, really doesn't look it.

• 1:08:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:23Andy Greenwald?

  And I just liked that that was him. And there's something about, he seemed, it seemed like an old movie performance, like someone in, you know, like Edward G. Robinson in Ten Commandments or something.

• 1:08:35Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:08:35Andy Greenwald?

  In a way that I was like, this is cool. This is surprising. This is a person I haven't seen before. This is an actor I know, seeing him in a different way.

• 1:08:41Chris Ryan?

  I think he also, um, this is not my favorite Nolan script.

• 1:08:48Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:08:48Chris Ryan?

  You know, like, I think there's two ways of looking at that. Is it structurally not my favorite? No, I actually quite like the structure. I wish there were more moments of character rather than informational dead drops for, for a lot of these characters. And I thought Leguizamo and Hamesh Patel did the two best jobs of being like, I know I have to mention Zeus's law or talk about, you know, this, this thing that's happened and may happen again, but they felt like very real people. And I thought Burnthall did too. I thought Burnthall, the second time around, like, when you know the, the accent is coming and it's not even an accent, he's just doing Burnthall.

• 1:09:29Chris Ryan?

  Like, I think I liked the fact that everybody more or less did their voice. And it's, honestly, it was really funny. I, the second time around, like, Damon, when he's like.

• 1:09:41Chris Ryan?

  This cheese, it's pretty good.

• 1:09:43Andy Greenwald?

  I love that part.

• 1:09:44Chris Ryan?

  Like, I was like, this is the most Boston just jumped out of Odysseus.

• 1:09:47Andy Greenwald?

  I know, and I like that. I, the thing I burnt, like, this is a longer conversation, but like, watching him do some of this press, and I'm like, oh, he just seems like a nice man who also went to a private Quaker school.

• 1:09:58Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 1:09:58Andy Greenwald?

  And then as soon as he's on screen, every year since I don't know what, he just does that. And I would like to see a different shade, I would say. But clearly, he's hired for, this is like the most insulted you've ever been on this podcast.

• 1:10:10Chris Ryan?

  I don't think you have to limit men who went to friend's schools, you know, like, they can have whatever they.

• 1:10:14Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think you could bring a little bit more of the light within.

• 1:10:16Chris Ryan?

  I don't need them, I don't need an actor to be authentic to his off-screen persona.

• 1:10:20Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not saying he needs to do that. I'm saying that there are other, other color crayons in the deck, you know what I mean, in the pack?

• 1:10:28Andy Greenwald?

  Not the light, he's doing more Marlboro Light rather than the Light Within. Do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:10:32Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:10:32Andy Greenwald?

  And surely, you among all of us understand that they're both.

• 1:10:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:36Andy Greenwald?

  Twin flames burning at both ends. The Agamemnon, the Agamemnon piece, you know? But like, having that be a Safdie who you never see, you know, and the idea that it was all.

• 1:10:46Chris Ryan?

  Show me the Safdie.

• 1:10:47Andy Greenwald?

  No, but there was all for, it was all just greed, and he was undone by the things he wasn't paying attention to. And like, I thought that was all just very well-woven.

• 1:10:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Andy Greenwald?

  We mentioned the two scenes that I like best. I thought that.

• 1:11:02Chris Ryan?

  My favorite, the one of the, just to throw another one in there that you didn't mention was the Hades scene.

• 1:11:08Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, sorry, that's the best scene in the movie. Thank you. That's, that's what I was building to. I thought that was the most, and I wonder, let's talk about that. Was it the best scene in the movie because it was the most otherworldly? I mean, I know there are monsters and other scenes, but like, I thought that scene was so beautifully conceived. It was so haunting. And I never wanted it to end, and then it ends in an incredible way.

• 1:11:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:29Andy Greenwald?

  And the way that he turned that moment into a vehicle for the narrative that he's been telling was masterful. I thought that was an incredible scene.

• 1:11:38Chris Ryan?

  Another one that just, it got so much deeper the second time around for me. I didn't notice that Yovona Depo, first of all, like, the first time, I don't even know if I noticed that Yovona Depo was in the movie. And he's then comes out when Sanan and Agamemnon are done talking and is like, but you're old. The people that you've already lost on this voyage want to have a word with you.

• 1:11:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, we have some things.

• 1:11:58Chris Ryan?

  And that's what, like, that's when the army of the dead run after him.

• 1:12:04Chris Ryan?

  I just thought that was, I mean, the guy fucking went to Iceland to shoot a scene. Like, that's awesome.

• 1:12:09Andy Greenwald?

  That's what, that's what that was?

• 1:12:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Andy Greenwald?

  No, it's incredible. And he's afforded opportunities that other people don't, but he makes the most of them. What do you think?

• 1:12:17Chris Ryan?

  I still think this movie's gonna cost a lot less than Doomsday, though. I mean, like, people act like it's, and I don't know whether actors are taking discounts for him because they get to be in it.

• 1:12:25Andy Greenwald?

  Zendaya got scale, I would say.

• 1:12:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Andy Greenwald?

  I'm pretty sure.

• 1:12:28Chris Ryan?

  What do you mean? What does that mean?

• 1:12:29Andy Greenwald?

  Your day rate. Like, you're not getting, you're not getting the Zendaya starring in a movie. She's doing it because she wants to do it.

• 1:12:35Chris Ryan?

  Right. Right.

• 1:12:36Andy Greenwald?

  But, so let's talk, let's talk Damon.

• 1:12:39Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:12:40Andy Greenwald?

  I, I love watching Matt Damon in movies. I just think he's just like a naturally charismatic actor who is also a movie star. And I, this, it's just, it's just such a good use of him because I never really get tired of watching him in movies. And you don't, so he wears well over the course of this movie.

• 1:12:59Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:13:00Andy Greenwald?

  When it was over, and I was reading more about it, and I saw Sean talking about this, that like, it seems pretty clear that he probably went to Christian Bale first, or that that's, is that official, or we just think that?

• 1:13:09Chris Ryan?

  I don't, I don't think that that's.

• 1:13:12Andy Greenwald?

  That's not been said?

• 1:13:12Chris Ryan?

  That's not been said. I think Sean and I and Amanda talked about, like, who else could have played this part? And I think Sean was like, Bale is the one that nags at me.

• 1:13:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. I wondered that as well. Do you, what, what worked for you in the performance, and what, do you have any notes or quibbles?

• 1:13:30Chris Ryan?

  I mean, physically, I thought he captured, like, the way he shaped his body, I thought was like, perfect for the historical era that they were trying to depict within the reality of the movie.

• 1:13:42Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, although, sorry to bring it full circle to where we started this podcast. The man ages 20 years and then straps himself to a raft to float home.

• 1:13:53Chris Ryan?

  But that's.

• 1:13:53Andy Greenwald?

  And somehow returns in peak fighting shape. No salads.

• 1:13:58Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 1:13:59Andy Greenwald?

  No weight training. You know what I mean?

• 1:14:01Chris Ryan?

  I mean, he, I, I think when you have a physically active lifestyle, you can compensate for.

• 1:14:06Andy Greenwald?

  My brother, he spent seven years munching on opium flowers.

• 1:14:10Chris Ryan?

  But every day, he has to like, yes, but beautiful seafood. Just, like.

• 1:14:16Andy Greenwald?

  Don't tempt me with the part of the movie that, don't make me say that I wish there was more of that. So you think what Calypso's really doing is just like a small sea-to-plate kind of situation?

• 1:14:26Chris Ryan?

  It reminds me a lot of this place I went in Vise, off of Croatia, where, you know, it's just like the best, the best of the best. They cook it under a bell, you know?

• 1:14:34Andy Greenwald?

  What?

• 1:14:35Chris Ryan?

  Embers kind of heating the bell.

• 1:14:37Andy Greenwald?

  And you were in the best shape of your life.

• 1:14:38Chris Ryan?

  And I was in the best shape of my life.

• 1:14:39Andy Greenwald?

  Incredible.

• 1:14:42Chris Ryan?

  Damon, it's hard to distinguish between, Sean spoke about this very articulately, the, the associations you make with Damon. Sean and Amanda, but the, the sort of baggage you bring with Damon and being like,

• 1:14:58Chris Ryan?

  I trust this guy.

• 1:14:59Andy Greenwald?

  Totally.

• 1:14:59Chris Ryan?

  I don't mind if he does five things that put lots of people in danger. I don't mind the arrogance of thinking that he can, only I can fix it. I can defy the gods and figure out Solange and, and.

• 1:15:12Andy Greenwald?

  Krybdis.

• 1:15:14Chris Ryan?

  Where everybody else is like, no, you, you really can't, you know?

• 1:15:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:18Chris Ryan?

  And again, the end of the Calypso sequence, the first time around, I don't even think I was really processing it. And the second time, I was like, oh, that, he has to give himself over.

• 1:15:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:30Chris Ryan?

  To fate, rather than try to conquer it, you know?

• 1:15:32Andy Greenwald?

  I think that his innate goodness and trustworthiness may have worked against some of the deeper themes of the movie. Because I was, I don't think I'm like, I, I'd like to think that I run towards moral nuance in, in storytelling. I'd like to think that. You know, I, I, I hydrate, I stretch, and then I run towards it. When he shoots the extra arrow at the already grievously wounded Cyclops, and you're like, why did you do that?

• 1:16:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:07Andy Greenwald?

  And his people are like, why did you do that? That was a real prick move. And he's like, well, he ate some of my friends or whatever, and I have my moral code. And you realize that there is a counter-narrative, anti-heroic narrative to what he's doing and dragging these people. I was, that is the only thing that might make me want to watch the movie again, because in the watching, the, it almost worked against what I think the casting of him was meant to do, which is, I trust this guy completely. Wait, why is he letting everybody down?

• 1:16:35Chris Ryan?

  I think that he, Damon has moved way beyond, like, that's the Martian, that's the guy who I just would like, love to have a beer with and would trust with my life. Like, I think Damon is capable of playing Colin in The Departed.

• 1:16:47Andy Greenwald?

  No, he's a great actor. I'm not questioning his performance. I'm just saying that the way you use him, because as you guys were talking about, like, you cast people because of audiences' relationships to them as well, and you play towards it or you play against it, that I think some of the nuance of what he was doing and his stubbornness and how his, his trick unbroke the world was, for me, in my experience watching it, was slow-developing. And I don't think slow-developing in the good way of the like, aha. I think it was more like, I don't know how clearly that was communicated.

• 1:17:19Chris Ryan?

  Where is that aha from? Oh, is that Princess Bride?

• 1:17:21Andy Greenwald?

  That's Princess Bride.

• 1:17:21Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 1:17:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Do you want me to do more?

• 1:17:24Chris Ryan?

  No, but you've done it a bunch, and I'm always like, who, and then I'm like, oh, yeah, Billy Crystal.

• 1:17:29Andy Greenwald?

  It's like the, you know, the, are you serious about that? I kind of had it decoupled from Joe Pesci.

• 1:17:36Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:17:37Andy Greenwald?

  In My Cousin Vinny.

• 1:17:38Chris Ryan?

  Well, this is, the profundity of your commentary is that you can borrow from the greats and then make it your own.

• 1:17:44Andy Greenwald?

  All six of the movies I remember seeing.

• 1:17:45Chris Ryan?

  Um, I guess, where do you want to end?

• 1:17:47Andy Greenwald?

  I, I think the hardest thing about this is, it is such a major movie, and it's a major event, and it's deserving of all this unpacking and conversation and discourse. I wish, this is, this is a recurring thing. I wish there were more movies on this scale of ambition and of intent and of thought.

• 1:18:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:07Andy Greenwald?

  So that we could have a spirited conversation about where movies are on that level.

• 1:18:12Chris Ryan?

  Right. And you worry that, like, this is, while great, or at least a great experience, that it's like, is this a bottle of Aquafina in the middle of a desert?

• 1:18:23Andy Greenwald?

  You love, but wait, you love Aquafina?

• 1:18:24Chris Ryan?

  That's why I used it as a reference.

• 1:18:26Andy Greenwald?

  That would be a dream. Oh, and I don't. So I'd be like, no, thanks.

• 1:18:28Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:18:29Andy Greenwald?

  Would rather die. No, I don't wor, I want to, I don't worry about anything.

• 1:18:35Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:18:35Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I mean? I just think that.

• 1:18:37Chris Ryan?

  I assure you, that's not the case.

• 1:18:39Andy Greenwald?

  When it comes to this film, nothing about it gives me pause, and I have no reason to concern troll. I think it's fascinating, and I think it's rich, and I think it's rewarding. I, I, I, I'm not good at dealing with the world as it is, perhaps like Odysseus, in the sense that, in many ways, we're similar. In the sense that I wish that it was in more active conversation with other big movies this summer.

• 1:19:01Chris Ryan?

  It's like this.

• 1:19:02Andy Greenwald?

  Not to take sides, but just to have a more, like, a rounder, richer conversation, as opposed to everything else is dogshit and this is exceptional.

• 1:19:11Chris Ryan?

  Well, I think it's been a great year at the movies so far.

• 1:19:13Andy Greenwald?

  It's been a great year at the movies, but on this fucking scale.

• 1:19:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I think it would almost be interesting if this was coming out, and then next month, Dune was coming out.

• 1:19:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:21Chris Ryan?

  But, we'll see. We'll see how, we'll see when we get to the end of the year. You know, this is, this would be a pretty historic run for him to, to go back-to-back with films that he's directed, with Oscar sweeps or Oscar juggernauts.

• 1:19:37Andy Greenwald?

  His work ethic is unbelievable. Like, if you look at how many movies he's made.

• 1:19:41Chris Ryan?

  It's, it's my favorite thing about him is that there's all these now pockets of his filmography to get lost in. It's, it's really enjoyable.

• 1:19:48Andy Greenwald?

  Is it, so is, I didn't, I didn't listen to the whole podcast yet. Like, Amanda was really having trouble with people who like to talk about The Prestige.

• 1:19:55Chris Ryan?

  I don't, did she?

• 1:19:56Andy Greenwald?

  That's me, Doug.

• 1:19:57Chris Ryan?

  Do you like, is The Prestige your favorite?

• 1:19:58Andy Greenwald?

  Hell, I love that movie so much. I love that movie.

• 1:20:01Chris Ryan?

  You like Bale, don't you?

• 1:20:03Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, since Empire of the Sun.

• 1:20:04Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:20:05Andy Greenwald?

  No, I, I do like Bale. No, I, I, there's something about that movie.

• 1:20:09Chris Ryan?

  I like Bale.

• 1:20:10Andy Greenwald?

  The, the fact that, again, like, I like it when the subject matter is also, there's subjective and objective. Like, the movie is a trick, but it's about a trick, and then the monstrousness of the reveal in that movie.

• 1:20:21Chris Ryan?

  That's why I like Inception, yeah.

• 1:20:22Andy Greenwald?

  Is so, so, so haunting. Yeah, Inception, it's just, what's, what's your, I, I don't have a favorite, but what is your?

• 1:20:30Chris Ryan?

  Dunkirk is my favorite, very easily. And then I, I think my, I, we just did this, but I think it was Dunkirk, Inception, Odyssey, Tenet, or something like that?

• 1:20:41Andy Greenwald?

  Tenet?

• 1:20:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Damn, I love Tenet.

• 1:20:43Andy Greenwald?

  I would say, I would say, yeah, Inception, I would say Prestige, I would say Dunkirk. I'm a big Batman Begins guy.

• 1:20:54Chris Ryan?

  I don't like Batman Begins very much.

• 1:20:55Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's the best of the three.

• 1:20:57Chris Ryan?

  Well, that's your favorite Rachel Dawes, right?

• 1:21:01Chris Ryan?

  Thanks to Kai.

• 1:21:02Andy Greenwald?

  Now, what if Rachel Cusk was in that movie?

• 1:21:04Chris Ryan?

  Thanks to Sarah. We'll be back on Monday for definitely the agency recap, and we'll see Dragon?

• 1:21:13Andy Greenwald?

  Of course. Of cour, I live to serve.

• 1:21:16Chris Ryan?

  Thanks so much for listening and watching, and we'll see you on Monday.