Gail Simmons on the ‘Top Chef’ Season 23 Finale! Plus, ‘Widow’s Bay’ Episode 9.

Andy opens by reacting to the ‘Slow Horses’ Season 6 release date (3:59), the announcement of ‘Tucci in Great Britain’ (5:22), and the phenomenon behind ‘The Amazing Digital Circus: The Last Act’ (7:52). Then he and Chris discuss the penultimate episode of ‘Widow’s Bay’ and why it felt like a tonal shift for the series (15:39). Later, Andy is joined by ‘Top Chef’ host and executive producer Gail Simmons to talk about the Season 23 finale (32:55). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guest: Gail Simmons Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Sarah Reddy The Ringer is committed to responsible trading. Please visit https://fanduel.com/predicts to learn more about the resources and helpline. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:01Speaker 01

  What's the secret to being a great host this season? Keeping things deliciously simple, like mixing Simply Cranberry into a festive drink as guests arrive, or serving up a warm mug of Simply Apple on a chilly night. That means less time behind the scenes and more time in the moment with everyone. Crafted with real fruit, Simply juices and fruit drinks make any holiday drink effortless, inviting, and completely delicious. Simply: Say yes to simple.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 1:41Andy Greenwald?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Andy Greenwald. I have no official designation here at Spotify. Chris Ryan is, surprise, surprise, traveling this great country of ours. I think he's calling it a listening tour. He hasn't really announced anything yet, but he is connecting with voters in the Midwest. Very happy to have you here. We have a good show today. It is not just going to be me speaking directly to you in camera, I promise. I'm going to talk for a few minutes. Chris is going to join me somehow through the magic of time travel, aka we recorded it earlier this week. Talk about this penultimate episode of Widows Bay, which I think is both of our favorite show of the year. And then, at the end of the podcast, I will be joined for my yearly, and I don't take it for granted, my yearly conversation with the great Gail Simmons, judge, executive producer of Top Chef.

• 2:26Andy Greenwald?

  That conversation hasn't happened yet, so again, miracle of podcast time travel, but I imagine it's going to be a good one. And we will talk about fully spoiling the just concluded season 23 in Carolinas. So housekeeping, something I am famously bad at. You can email us, [email protected]. Say whatever you want. I do not have access to that email, nor do I want it. You can also, of course, find us on Instagram at thewatch. Oh, I always get it wrong. It's thewatchpod.

• 2:57Speaker 04

  Thewatchpod underscore.

• 2:58Andy Greenwald?

  Underscore.

• 2:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:00Andy Greenwald?

  Classic.

• 3:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. Again, thewatchpod was taken by a account that reviews watches.

• 3:05Andy Greenwald?

  See, OK, that does seem inevitable to me. Do you think we get any crossover with the watch community? I don't personally wear one.

• 3:13Speaker 04

  I think we should try to get a sponsorship going.

• 3:16Andy Greenwald?

  I.

• 3:17Speaker 04

  A little rolly.

• 3:18Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think we can get a Rolex subscription, Gaia? This is.

• 3:21Speaker 04

  If we put it out there, you never know.

• 3:22Andy Greenwald?

  Very, very optimistic. While we are on the subject of housecleaning, one small thing. You guys know this about Chris, again, and this is what makes him an authentic candidate, almost authentic enough to run for senate in Maine. He does not like to engage with the replies and the reply guys. He's just like, the take is clean, the delivery is pure, we move on to the next one. I am not that impervious. And when I get something wrong, I do like to admit it. So two things. Last week, I believe, Chris had a really fun game where he pitched the idea that we would quote unquote star city other television shows, which is to say that we would just spontaneously, I'm sorry, no. He did it as homework, I spontaneously did it.

• 4:05Andy Greenwald?

  Alternate versions slash spinoffs of beloved TV shows that looked at things from the other perspective. I was very, very pleased with my final suggestion, which was a show set in the Mad Men universe based on the quote "other Jewish firm" that Rachel, the department store heir in the pilot, should have been seeking business from. I didn't, I fumbled, basically. I thought it was a good idea and I fumbled the ball at the one yard line. Longtime watch listener Jonathan zoomed in to say Mad Mench was right there. It was right there waiting for me. And I do feel like that's just a bad look for me and I will continue to get better every day. Second thing, William B. Davis, the Canadian actor who plays the cigarette smoking man on The X-Files,

• 4:47Andy Greenwald?

  a show we talked about last week, and frankly, I'm ready to talk about almost any time. Still alive. Still alive. 88 years young. I buried the man last week, guys. I'm really sorry. I conflated the actor with the man who smoked cigarettes on television for a decade. So you understand my error, but I do apologize to Mr. Davis. I hope he's thriving today. I also hope that he's watching the NBA Finals. I don't know if anyone else in this room has been watching, but the Knicks game last night was like the best TV I've seen this year. Kai, don't clip that because our Widows Bay content is just going wild right now. And I don't ever want to be known as someone who's inconsistent in his fandom, but that was incredible. That was incredible television. Last few things

• 5:30Andy Greenwald?

  of notes to go through. Slow Horses returns, season six, September 16th of this year. This is really one of the only constants in this madhouse that we call contemporary television and entertainment. I kind of love the flex here. This is all they released. Apple said that it was coming back, but we all knew it was coming back. This show puts a trailer for the next season at the end of the previous season's finale. Let's see the pit do that. This is their plot synopsis for their sixth season returning show. The Slow Horses are on the run as Diana Taverner embroiles them all in a fatally high stakes game of retaliation and revenge. To which I add, is the Slow Horses PR person the

• 6:15Andy Greenwald?

  easiest cushiest job in Hollywood? Literally cut and paste. Cut and paste. Kai, has there been a season of Slow Horses that that could not apply to?

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Um, no, I I've never really watched Slow Horses, but I that that summary just kind of gave me the gist of it. I think, isn't that what they do every season?

• 6:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, I think maybe the key is that they're all on the run. Sometimes they amble, they're slow.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 6:39Andy Greenwald?

  Sometimes they walk, sometimes they stumble, but they are always embroiled in a fatally high stakes game of retaliation and revenge. So business as usual.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  And people will tune in.

• 6:48Andy Greenwald?

  Two, and again, I don't know how you feel about this, Kaya, but um, a very exciting new show announcement, at least as far as I'm concerned, uh, this week or since our last recording, Tucci in Great Britain.

• 7:01Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 7:01Andy Greenwald?

  Tucci in Great Britain.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 7:03Andy Greenwald?

  Now, again, like the Slow Horses, uh, PR blurb, it's all right there in the title.

• 7:10Andy Greenwald?

  We rarely talk because of Chris's editorial iron fist, we rarely talk about the perverse pleasures of Tucci in Italy, or his previous show, which was just like, Tucci touches them all, or whatever it was called, but it was basically the same thing.

• 7:23Speaker 04

  Wow. So the title is really Tucci in Great Britain.

• 7:25Andy Greenwald?

  The title? Oh, you thought I was kidding?

• 7:27Speaker 04

  No, I, yeah, I thought.

• 7:28Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, no, no. It is called Tucci in Great Britain. And longtime Tucci heads know that Stanley has lived in London for quite some time with his wife, um, Felicity Blunt, sister of Emily Blunt. And I really, really enjoy his sourpuss social media content where he just sort of idly chops things and throws them in incredibly expensive pans and his incredibly expensive and beautiful kitchen in London and kind of complains about the weather. And as someone who, not to the degree that Stanley Tucci lives in Great Britain, but someone who has spent time there, I am ready for Stanley Tucci to show the world about the great food tradition of a country that is unfairly maligned.

• 8:09Speaker 04

  I'm nodding vigorously.

• 8:11Andy Greenwald?

  So do you, Kaya, do you like Tucci in Italy? Or do you just like Tucci, comma, Italy? Like, you're fine with both of those things?

• 8:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, I I never sat down and watched an episode of Tucci in Italy, but I love Stanley Tucci's Instagram content.

• 8:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 8:24Speaker 04

  And I'm in support of all things Tucci. And I thought he was great in Devil Wears Prada, too.

• 8:28Andy Greenwald?

  Which, by the way, I think maybe is on streaming already.

• 8:31Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 8:31Andy Greenwald?

  So now I can, I can watch it. My kids raced me to the box, raced me to the multiplex to see it. The other thing about the Tucci story that I love is I am all for and have long been all for celebrities doing lifestyle boondoggles. I still mourn, do you remember the show The Wine Show? With Matthew Rees and Matthew Good? Where two of the most charming British actors alive just convinced major corporations to pay for them to drink wine?

• 9:01Speaker 04

  Was that his boat involved in that?

• 9:04Andy Greenwald?

  In the sense that that's another boondoggle. I don't remember if his boat actually played a role. Because the show, I think they were traversing wine regions in Europe.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  It sounds like a great gig if you can get paid to do it.

• 9:14Andy Greenwald?

  What a charming guy. Anyway, unrelated, but I'm happy when people use their powers for selfishness in addition to good. Last thing. Okay, so Kai, I don't mean to put you on the spot here, and you are off camera, which I apologize for, but you are our youth correspondent. And I wondered if you had ever heard of a phenomenon called the Amazing Digital Circus?

• 9:35Speaker 04

  No.

• 9:36Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, so maybe some people, some Daddingtons and Momingtons are familiar with this, but The Amazing Digital Circus is a web series that premiered on YouTube in 2023 and then got upstreamed to Netflix. And I am only tangentially aware of it and maybe even mentioned it in passing once, because like with many of these things, my children, especially my younger daughter, got really, really into it. And what I would see as I walked past was essentially a screensaver nightmare. Because it is, to my eyes, like extremely intense and kind of ugly. I don't know if that's partially the point, but basically it is a very, very noisy visually and otherwise

• 10:18Andy Greenwald?

  web series about humans or human consciousnesses that are wake up trapped in this amazing digital circus like hellscape where they are in these bodies that are sold on t-shirts and Hot Topic now. Like genuinely, like one person is a rag doll named Ragatha and one person is a crazy purple bunny named Jax. And they have these adventures that are also kind of torture, being led by a ringleader named Kane, who is a like talking, what do you call it? Like, like he's basically dentures with eyeballs in his mouth. It was nine episodes. Fathom Entertainment released the final episode, much awaited final episode into movie theaters, paired with the eighth episode. And I think people are like, oh, that's nice.

• 11:03Andy Greenwald?

  Like, the fandom will show up. Maybe it'll make $10 million. It made $26 million in the box office for something that's gonna be on Netflix, I think, next week. And I went to the theater. And I saw it. And I can't lie to you. There was a moment when, uh, and I got the popcorn and I went over to the old bar in the Americana movie theater called McGuffin's.

• 11:24Speaker 04

  With your children.

• 11:25Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, thank you for asking that. 100% with my children.

• 11:29Speaker 04

  Okay, great.

• 11:29Andy Greenwald?

  One excitedly, one grudgingly.

• 11:32Speaker 04

  Great.

• 11:32Andy Greenwald?

  I took a picture of my children before the movie started, and one child was wearing a Jack sweatshirt excitedly. And my other child looked like the Unabomber.

• 11:40Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 11:41Andy Greenwald?

  Because she had sunglasses on and was texting furiously. And really was only there for the junior mints. But I can't lie. There was a moment when I was in the theater being like, I love the old, the old multiplex. Can't wait to see a movie. Oh, right, I'm going to be seeing 80 minutes of YouTube animation.

• 11:56Speaker 04

  Right.

• 11:56Andy Greenwald?

  But I have to say, I was shocked by this thing, and not in a bad way. I was pretty riveted. This is not me talking about Euphoria exactly, but I can't say that I felt particularly lost, having missed the first seven installments of The Amazing Digital Circus. But what I was really struck by, and I, I'm, I'm trying, your question was very valid, Kaya, because I'm trying to get, uh, the big picture Sean Fantasy to see this.

• 12:21Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 12:22Andy Greenwald?

  And he asked if he could bring his much younger child to it.

• 12:24Speaker 04

  Great.

• 12:25Andy Greenwald?

  Assured him he could not, which does create the possibility, there are a lot of swears in it.

• 12:29Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 12:30Andy Greenwald?

  It does create the possibility of, uh, maybe it's already happened, of Sean, hopefully not wearing a trench coat, going to see this movie alone.

• 12:39Andy Greenwald?

  But what was crazy about it is that it is, yes, it is incredibly noisy. It is incredibly in your face. And it's pulling these references from like, um, extreme, like TikTok fan edits slash Looney Tunes cartoons. But it was also simultaneously the single most earnest and emo piece of content that I have seen in quite some time.

• 13:00Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 13:01Andy Greenwald?

  Almost like punch you in the stomach with its sincerity and intensity. And I did, I did a little digging into it, and it does make sense. This shows the brainchild of a 31-year-old, content creator, animator, composer, who goes by the name of Gooseworks. And it is extremely gamer-coded, but it is also extremely, um, what's the word I would use? Uh, well, it's gamer-coded, it's incredibly queer-friendly, and it's very

• 13:33Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 13:34Andy Greenwald?

  post-therapy. And the energy of it honestly reminded me of when I was interviewing Dashboard Confessional fans in 2002, except now there is no more amateurism about it. Now, all of the energy about like, "I've been rejected by society and it's very hard for me to connect, but it's all I want to do is connect, but nothing will ever accept me," but with the professionalism of, "I will pour all of this into something that is going to make the Fathom Entertainment Company untold millions on a weekend in June." So fascinating content. This is my report from Youth Island.

• 14:03Speaker 04

  Where, and where are we on the scale of the kids are all right after watching this?

• 14:08Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you for asking that question, too, because I actually, I mean, my younger daughter was a pre-apologizing.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  That's nice.

• 14:15Andy Greenwald?

  Um, she was also very worried going in because Jax, the rabbit, is her favorite character, and she was pretty scared that he was going to abstract, because just to give you guys the full story about what happens here, the longer you are in this digital hellscape, the more unhinged you become from who you were, who you believe yourself to have been in reality, and at a certain point, some of the previous characters, including a clown and, I believe, a bear, uh, abstracted.

• 14:43Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 14:43Andy Greenwald?

  Which means they turn into like, kind of weird nightmare monsters with rainbow eyes, and they're, they're lost.

• 14:49Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 14:50Andy Greenwald?

  Because they've lost themselves. So she was worried Jax was gonna abstract. Uh, I won't spoil.

• 14:54Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 14:55Andy Greenwald?

  I will say that we get Jax's backstory, which is so dark, so dark, and involves pushing his mother and becoming unhoused.

• 15:03Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 15:04Andy Greenwald?

  And, um, then Pomney, who is kind of the heroine, travels through his psyche.

• 15:10Andy Greenwald?

  And there are shades of Inside Out, and there's also shades of Severance. And it's this absolute blender of insanity. And I'm really glad Chris is, you know, pressing the flesh with voters because he would not care for this.

• 15:22Speaker 04

  No, Chris would have cut you off five minutes ago.

• 15:26Andy Greenwald?

  How would Chris have been able to segue from this into a take on the Lioness season three trailer?

• 15:33Speaker 04

  I don't even think he would have segued. I think he would have just said, and now Lioness.

• 15:37Andy Greenwald?

  Can I ask you guys a question since he's not here?

• 15:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:39Andy Greenwald?

  Does he have a mute button for me?

• 15:41Speaker 04

  No, but I mean, I-

• 15:42Andy Greenwald?

  Does he have access to that?

• 15:43Speaker 04

  I am, I'm the only one with access to mute, but I can cut your mic at any time.

• 15:47Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you, Kaya. On that note, having delved into the world of culture that was frankly eye opening and a little bit terrifying. But that's actually not true. Kind of ultimately wholesome. We should probably get into some more wholesome content. So to recap, Chris and I are going to, Chris is going to magically appear. I have a button that can do that. We're going to talk about Widows Bay, penultimate episode, episode nine, Emergency Shelter. All spoilers for that. Obviously, the episode premiered the other day. And then, straight out of that conversation, we will go into my interview with Gail Simmons discussing, spoiling Top Chef season 23. I look forward to you enjoying both of those things.

• 16:28Chris Ryan?

  This episode is brought to you by FanDuel Predicts. You can predict the summer soccer showcase action all the way to the final match with FanDuel Predicts. All you have to do is sign up to get your $25 bonus. From the opening game to the final whistle, stay locked in with every pass, every goal, and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion. Sign up now for your $25 bonus on FanDuel Predicts. Go to FanDuel.com/predicts to sign up. That's FanDuel.com/predicts to get your $25 bonus disclaimer. Offered by FanDuel Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 and over. Restrictions apply. See terms at FanDuel.com/predicts/bonus-offer/terms.

• 17:09Chris Ryan?

  Here we are, Andy. You have presumably done the beginning of this show. We are dressed suspiciously like we were on Monday.

• 17:15Andy Greenwald?

  It's laundry week.

• 17:17Chris Ryan?

  And we are here to talk about the penultimate episode of season one of Widows Bay. This one is called Emergency Shelter. Hiram Rai is back behind the camera for these last two episodes. Tom, Patricia Wick, and Rosemary try to find out the lineage of Richard Warren as a storm shuts down the island, sending everyone into shelters, everyone bar one very important resident.

• 17:42Chris Ryan?

  I want to talk to you about a pretty significant tonal shift that occurs in this episode.

• 17:46Andy Greenwald?

  I'm glad. I thought you were going to talk to me about accountability when I dictated exactly what was going to happen and I was, I got you 80% of the way there and I was wrong.

• 17:55Chris Ryan?

  When did you do that? Last week?

• 17:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, two weeks. No, two weeks ago when I was like,

• 17:59Chris Ryan?

  This is what's?

• 18:00Andy Greenwald?

  One of the children escaped from the boat and swam back and had a child.

• 18:03Chris Ryan?

  You were very good about that.

• 18:04Andy Greenwald?

  But I was wrong.

• 18:06Chris Ryan?

  About who the the the the seed was. Yeah. You were worried it was Evan?

• 18:11Andy Greenwald?

  I wasn't worried. I was enthused.

• 18:13Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 18:14Andy Greenwald?

  But yes, I thought it was Evan.

• 18:14Chris Ryan?

  Turns out it's not Evan. It's Ruth, the beloved yet, you know, comical assistant who only works half days.

• 18:22Andy Greenwald?

  Sorry, but tonal shift.

• 18:24Chris Ryan?

  Tonal shift in this series. So we have talked about the the the horror comedy balance that Katie Dipple and her team has struck this this season. It's been honestly like one of the delights of TV over the last couple of years to watch them kind of figure out how to mix funny with scary and then jump from subgenre to subgenre and homage to homage from episode to episode. This one felt a little bit more like a moral quandary, you know, I guess. This is basically like the the, what is it? The trolley car thing where it's like, do you save one person? Do you kill one person to save many?

• 19:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 19:01Chris Ryan?

  And on top of that,

• 19:02Andy Greenwald?

  Someone's watched The Good Place.

• 19:03Chris Ryan?

  I think also there's a lot of, a lot of like, what would be real world consequences and real world tensions

• 19:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 19:12Chris Ryan?

  of of this show have kind of come to a head. Sheer trying to get off the island. Wick being like, I'm not a comic relief character. I'm actually here to liberate this place from hundreds of years of of damnation. Tom's kind of.

• 19:30Chris Ryan?

  Arriving at this moment where, you know, he obviously cares about his son and he cares about like the future of the island, but eventually is like, kind of like, we need to do what needs to be done. And Patricia moving into more of a like, voice of reason character. So what did you think of, of this episode in terms of its tonal shift?

• 19:47Andy Greenwald?

  I want to be very clear about what I'm about to say, because I'm going to immediately follow up. I'm not going to leave it alone. This is the weakest episode of Widows Bay of the season, and I love it for that. I say the weakest because this is the first episode that felt like connective tissue. This is the first episode that locked into what appears to be the, the rest of the ride. Like that moment when you are at an amusement park or something and you're sitting in the weird little car on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride or whatever, and it brings you right to the precipice of something, and then you feel the old machinery click, and suddenly you're turning left because that's where you're going next.

• 20:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Andy Greenwald?

  That's what happened in this episode, as it went from, to your point, being about everything that's happened in the past, everything that could happen in such a wildly high jinx-y, horror-filled island, everything that could happen when you have a writer's room led by Katie Dipold, who are completely in a hysterical creative frenzy about all their shared references in their, like, the bad parties they went to, and also the bad horror movies they've seen their entire lives, and even some of the good ones. And now it's going to be about something. And it's a tension that we talk about constantly when we talk about many different types of shows. It's really, the most fun creatively making the show and often watching it is the, we're just throwing stuff at the wall and we're seeing what we can get away with. But eventually, when you're ending, and I

• 21:07Andy Greenwald?

  don't mean the series is ending, but you are ending a season and you are paying the tax on the decision to make it serialized in a different way, you gotta choose. You gotta be about something. And what I loved about an episode that I am calling the weakest of the season, was that even within that hard pivot, there was room for insane humor. Like when Dale Dickey's character.

• 21:33Chris Ryan?

  Rosemary.

• 21:33Andy Greenwald?

  Rosemary. When Rosemary goes through the genealogy chart.

• 21:38Chris Ryan?

  Dead baby, dead baby, dead baby.

• 21:39Andy Greenwald?

  Dead baby, dead baby, dead baby lesbian. Dead baby. And then Patricia says, please stop saying that. And she says, oh, I'm not allowed to say that anymore. And she says, not like that. And she goes, fine. And then she circles the next generation and says, retards, all of them.

• 21:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:59Andy Greenwald?

  This is a show.

• 22:00Chris Ryan?

  What was there's one character who was like the like something Hortense? What was the adjective like that person had like?

• 22:06Andy Greenwald?

  I was like disappointing Hortense or Hortense the I didn't note that down.

• 22:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:11Andy Greenwald?

  But this is a show that is so deeply in its bag and so comfortable with itself that it can carve out space for, I mean, quite broad physical comedy, like Tom's temper tantrum in which a picture falls on him and then no one's then Rosemary says, don't save him.

• 22:27Chris Ryan?

  That's funny. The total shift for me is that it was not a funny episode, but I laughed hardest maybe in the entire season was the two times I've laughed the hardest this season are fucking Matthew Reese battling that painting.

• 22:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 22:41Chris Ryan?

  Having it nearly bisect him. And then when he's like, Kenny, help me like they're like, stand back. He could have a spinal cord injury.

• 22:48Andy Greenwald?

  And then Rosemary throws out her own back trying to help him before the strong.

• 22:51Chris Ryan?

  And then the other bit is his thing with the lighthouse guy.

• 22:55Andy Greenwald?

  It's perfect. It's like, this is a joke that could travel through time. Like you could explain the setup of the lighthouse generator joke to the founding fathers of this island.

• 23:06Chris Ryan?

  And they'd be like, that's pretty funny.

• 23:07Andy Greenwald?

  They'd be like, like, we're living in hell, but I have to give it to you. That's a good one.

• 23:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:11Andy Greenwald?

  The joke being that the radio to the the old lighthouse keeper who we never really see.

• 23:16Chris Ryan?

  Garrett.

• 23:17Andy Greenwald?

  Garrett. We, Tom thinks he's not being heard about needing the the power generator starter from the lighthouse. So he drives through perilous storm conditions to get there, only for Garrett to wave at him from where he just came.

• 23:30Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And then it turns out Garrett's doing this all on a bicycle and is like, I'll come back to you. And he's like, no, wait. He does to drive back. There's so many like little funny psych gags in this episode, but at the same time, I felt like maybe it's the conversation between Wick, Tom and Patricia, which is played with no laughs whatsoever.

• 23:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 23:48Chris Ryan?

  Pretty much, you know, and and the fact that.

• 23:50Andy Greenwald?

  It's very sober.

• 23:51Chris Ryan?

  You know, we've, we've got.

• 23:55Chris Ryan?

  A lot of like the sort of like lore parts of the story have now activated. You know, like, and now we are really, truly watching this, this island, you know, come under the, the, under attack really by, by a demonic storm. The interesting thing to me also is that like, you know, when I started this episode and it said it was 31 minutes, I was like, well, this is either going to be one of the great 31 minutes of my life, or it's what I think it is, which is essentially part one of the finale.

• 24:21Andy Greenwald?

  That's right. That's what it was.

• 24:22Chris Ryan?

  And if-

• 24:23Andy Greenwald?

  Cause it ends quite, oh, here we go.

• 24:24Chris Ryan?

  And if they had put like this up as a one hour finale and it's a nine episode season, I think I would have been deeply satisfied, but it just so happens that they, that they extended it. What were some of the other things that jumped out at you about this episode, aside from the, the death of our, our favorite mushroom dealer?

• 24:42Chris Ryan?

  The shaman.

• 24:42Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, it's a bummer.

• 24:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Chris Fleming's incredible. I hope they find him in a tree, you know?

• 24:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I was thinking that too. Like when they made the show and they hired Chris Fleming to play this one small part, they were probably like, man, this guy's great. Who can we, in the Simpsons-esque Springfield cast of characters that we've already created, who can we sacrifice to the vengeful tornado gods? He was a pretty funny option, especially because he wouldn't leave his socks because he said he needed them.

• 25:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Andy Greenwald?

  But to your point, like-

• 25:10Chris Ryan?

  I need these.

• 25:11Andy Greenwald?

  The, the, the, the moment when they made the show, essentially in a bubble of their own enthusiasm and good spirits and creativity versus now when people genuinely, not just us, love it. Like, I don't know if they would make the same decision. Like, let's burn this ascendant comedian's funny side character, but that's the freedom of what's to come. And part of the fun of watching the show has always been watching it for purely what it is, then also admiring the construction behind it. And part of the construction behind it that I'm watching now is what is their plan to resolve the show? Because I a hundred percent believe that Katie and Hero took nothing for granted and will resolve aspects of the story. Like, does it end with Tom and Evan at a Red Sox game? Maybe.

• 25:57Andy Greenwald?

  But- They, there, there are legs here and there's somewhere else for this to go.

• 26:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Andy Greenwald?

  The question is, what's it going to be?

• 26:03Chris Ryan?

  Do you think this is gonna be the only season of the show?

• 26:04Andy Greenwald?

  No. I don't have insider knowledge, but I just deeply, deeply.

• 26:07Chris Ryan?

  I don't either, but I wonder if they had known what a sensation it would become if they would have had this storm hitting in the end of the first season and.

• 26:13Andy Greenwald?

  I think they would in the sense that she knows, I mean, again, I think we're gonna get a chance to talk to her about it, but like, it's, and it's not fair to reduce anyone to their influences. But it's interesting watching this as such an incredibly successful distillation of serialized storytelling and episodic storytelling from someone who is a veteran of Parks and Recreation, which was so good at managing the line between the two, who then went on to write movies.

• 26:38Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:38Andy Greenwald?

  And knowing that you gotta leave it all on the table and tell your full story.

• 26:42Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 26:44Andy Greenwald?

  Then there's a third piece. What do you hold on to? Where do you go next? And I, I was thinking about this show's just, at this point, seemingly effortless ability to transition between what you were saying, serious emotional reckonings between the characters who are 100% the same characters they've been in every episode. Patricia, the one who's sitting there being concerned or wanting to protect Tom or wanting to move things along, is the same woman who just tased a lady having a wine club meeting.

• 27:11Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 27:12Andy Greenwald?

  That's still the same person. But so, a show that can manage the reality of them as well as the surreality of them,

• 27:20Andy Greenwald?

  episode to episode, but then also, I don't know, I'm getting lost in the sauce of my own analogy.

• 27:26Chris Ryan?

  No, I know what you mean.

• 27:26Andy Greenwald?

  How much I love these characters.

• 27:27Chris Ryan?

  It's like they can have repeatable, like, TV bones, but they can be put into like almost movie scenarios, right?

• 27:35Andy Greenwald?

  And what I was thinking about when I was watching them just do this, it can be broad, it can be specific, it can be light, it can be dark. I was thinking about The Bear, which is coming back.

• 27:44Chris Ryan?

  At the end of the month.

• 27:45Andy Greenwald?

  In just a couple of weeks at this point. And I was thinking about the genuinely organic, beautifully thrilling excitement of the first season, in which we were looking at characters who were seemingly capable of everything also, in a show that was able to straddle multiple tones, despite what the, the, the hacks lobby would have you believe. The Bear season one was hilarious.

• 28:07Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 28:07Andy Greenwald?

  And impossibly tense, you know? And the inevitabilities of long-form storytelling, maybe when you didn't intend for there to be long-form storytelling, it wears on shows, it wears on characters, they become less elastic. So I'm not saying that's what's going to happen here, but I was really present in appreciating what's capable right now.

• 28:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, there's. I guess I would assume, based on what I know about the moral world of the show, that there will be a wrinkle to the Ruth storyline.

• 28:42Andy Greenwald?

  They're not gonna kill an old lady next week?

• 28:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I don't think, I mean, I think that, honestly, I would say Steven Root has been remarkable on this show. And for as much as I admire Kato Flynn and Matthew Reese's performances, Steven Root is, that part could go wrong. Like, that part could be, like, way too much yelling at clouds, way too much, like, this guy wouldn't be fit. Nobody would let him into a restaurant, or nobody would want him in, like, he kind of, like, embodies like a worn-out, weathered truth-sayer in this series. And I certainly really hope he continues on, because he's such a wonderful addition to the show. But I'll be fascinated to see, I mean, presumably, they're gonna traverse across an island to go find Ruth

• 29:28Chris Ryan?

  with a giant tornado streaking across it.

• 29:31Andy Greenwald?

  Steven Root, we don't talk about enough, because he's, like, woven into the American television fabric to a degree that is almost supernatural.

• 29:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:40Andy Greenwald?

  But if you think about, like, the first time I became aware of Steven Root as an actor was watching news radio. When he takes a part that, within two or three appearances, you're like, well, no one else could play this part. This is so deeply, deeply specific, and so remarkable, that I can't, but I also can't say that as a 19-year-old, I was like, it's a generational actor right there. I was like, that guy's really funny. But you think about how, at least in three cases, and I imagine if I did a deep dive on his filmography, there maybe would be more to pick out, but news radio, but particularly recently with Barry and with Widows Bay, the television shows do not work without Steven Root. I'm not saying they wouldn't be well-written, but if Steven Root isn't playing the part he plays

• 30:24Andy Greenwald?

  on Barry, the way that he plays it, in a way that only he can, and specifically here with The Widows' Bay as well, which is, everything he does is so knowing and broad and clever and comic, but also so soulful and technically precise, that the show doesn't work. It just, I mean, I can't imagine there was anyone else on their wishlist.

• 30:44Chris Ryan?

  I mean, it's also like he's been doing this for 40 years.

• 30:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 30:49Chris Ryan?

  But yeah, I was just, I forgot that he was Judge Mike Reardon on Unjustified, he was on Good Wife, he was on Boardwalk Empire, he is in The Newsroom for two episodes, he's on Fargo for two episodes. I mean, it's just such an insane...

• 31:08Andy Greenwald?

  One sneaky thing is that, I know the Coen Brothers are celebrated, but I don't know if we've-

• 31:16Chris Ryan?

  Seven episodes of Perry Mason with Matthew Reese, which I wonder if that's where that relationship started.

• 31:21Andy Greenwald?

  But do you feel like the Coen Brothers get enough credit for telling us about people? Like, it was the Coen Brothers, like, I know that, like, John Goodman was like a great, he was a great theater actor, and everyone was like, wow, this guy's really got the sauce. But the Coen Brothers, like, when they see someone who can do what they want, they're telling us something about-

• 31:38Chris Ryan?

  Is this his first one with them, Oh Brother?

• 31:40Andy Greenwald?

  Who?

• 31:40Chris Ryan?

  Steven Root.

• 31:41Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, I think so, but I just mean, when, like, people like Steven Root start showing up, even like, in the later movies, you're like, oh, that's a guy who can do this?

• 31:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:48Andy Greenwald?

  You know, in the tradition of a Turturro or a John Goodman, there's just this, or a Michael Stuhlbarg, there's like a specificity of the type of performer that is basically telling you, Tim Blake Nelson, like, oh, these guys can pretty much do anything and should be working twice as much as they do, and they already work quite a lot.

• 32:06Chris Ryan?

  What do you think of the Bashir plotline, the late introduction of his wife, and this pregnancy that needs to, that also has like a degree of urgency, because before it was just like, oh, wouldn't it be nice if Evan could get off the island and blow off some steam, go to college maybe, and now it's like, well, they all know that if you're born here, you're doomed. So they, there was like this push to get Bashir's wife off of the island from Patricia.

• 32:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 32:31Chris Ryan?

  And now it's like, you know.

• 32:33Andy Greenwald?

  And the wick scene there is great, what's the plan here, with the boats?

• 32:35Chris Ryan?

  That's great, that boat came here on a boat.

• 32:38Andy Greenwald?

  Great line.

• 32:38Chris Ryan?

  It was a great line, yeah.

• 32:40Andy Greenwald?

  I- I think that there is an element of engineering to good television writing and to show running and the ability to be deeply within the characters and in within the script to write funny jokes or have some kind of consistency is one thing, but to also be able to step back with some perspective and say, you know what, this is actually a load bearing wall and we're gonna need to shore it up a little bit.

• 33:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:02Andy Greenwald?

  And the show could work hurdling towards a finale, hyper focused on the three leads and what freedom might mean for them from this curse, but it works a lot better if there's like a ticking baby clock of a future generation.

• 33:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:18Andy Greenwald?

  Could be saved more than, because like, what are this, like, again, we're thinking about what are the stakes for all these characters and we understand deeply Evan's unfortunate life and his limited claustrophobic existence and like why he wants to act up and get out, but the stakes of him living essentially well enough for 17 years without going to a Red Sox game doesn't hit as hard as this young, this young couple, uh, the young family anyway, like who don't really want to be here, will be cursed to live here forever. It just hits different. It's just smart engineering.

• 33:49Chris Ryan?

  It really is. I cannot wait for the finale. Hopefully we'll have Katie on to discuss it, uh, next week. I will leave you to the rest of the episode.

• 33:57Andy Greenwald?

  What do you think I'm gonna do? This is exciting. At this point, decisions will have been made, announcements, introductions will have happened. Do you have any crystal ball predictions for what I've already said about you, about how I feel about you, about how I feel about you not being here?

• 34:10Chris Ryan?

  This is why I listen, you know?

• 34:12Andy Greenwald?

  That's why I don't.

• 34:13Chris Ryan?

  Thanks to Kaia and Kaia, uh, we'll be back on Monday with some combination of, of wonderful television talk.

• 34:21Andy Greenwald?

  You'll just talk to me about Cape Fear.

• 34:23Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

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• 35:55Andy Greenwald?

  I am so happy to be joined yet again. I don't know if this is the third year, the fourth year.

• 36:00Speaker 07

  At least.

• 36:01Andy Greenwald?

  We feel lucky every time we get to do it. We are joined by the executive producer and judge of Top Chef, our official favorite Canadian, Gail Simmons. Welcome back to the watch.

• 36:11Speaker 07

  Thank you so much. I always love talking to you.

• 36:13Andy Greenwald?

  I am really excited to talk to you. We have a lot to cover for season 23. We have some good, we have some bad, and we have some, not ugly, but some curious.

• 36:22Speaker 07

  Less attractive, perhaps, but also really interesting.

• 36:25Andy Greenwald?

  Fascinating, if I may. So I do think we should start where we just ended, which is the finale. Sherri, Lawrence, and Rhoda are our final three. And I wondered if you could give some insight into how much time, because it did feel like, again, I may be wrong about this, that there wasn't a gap this year between...

• 36:43Speaker 07

  There wasn't a gap. That's right, because we didn't travel for our finale as we usually do. We went right through all in the Carolinas. And, you know, I was actually very mixed about that from a production standpoint when they told us that that was the schedule we had to keep to. I brought it up several times with our showrunner, Donine, who I also think maybe has spoken to you over the years. But she...

• 37:08Speaker 07

  I was worried that usually our chefs get a reset. You know, they get two weeks or so between the bulk of the season and that last, let's say, two to three episodes to get back to their life, rest, recoup, get their creative juices flowing again, craft this final menu. They got none of that this time, but the flip side was that they just were running. You know what I mean? They didn't stop and then there's kind of a lull and you forget the, and you're not sort of in the moment anymore and then you have to get back in the moment. So there's two sides to the argument. This is one of the first times. The only other time I can think of when we didn't take a gap was during the pandemic

• 37:51Speaker 07

  when we were in Portland, Oregon. But you know what? I think it worked. I do. I think that their menus were what they would have been either way and I think that the final three were just sort of plowing forward. They were in a zone. They were, as they said many times, locked in.

• 38:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, much like the New York Knicks. There's something to be said about being streaky.

• 38:13Speaker 07

  That's right.

• 38:15Andy Greenwald?

  The only thing I really la- I missed was the hairstyle glow up that we often get from the contestants.

• 38:21Speaker 07

  Yes, that's true.

• 38:22Andy Greenwald?

  That was a shame.

• 38:23Speaker 07

  That's true.

• 38:24Andy Greenwald?

  But I was willing to overlook it.

• 38:25Speaker 07

  We tried to give you some ourselves.

• 38:26Andy Greenwald?

  You guys look great.

• 38:27Speaker 07

  Tom especially, Tom especially.

• 38:28Andy Greenwald?

  Tom, I mean, I Googled-

• 38:30Speaker 07

  He's had a glow up.

• 38:31Andy Greenwald?

  He, Tom looks amazing. I did Google Tom Colicchio ear piercing midway through the finale, which, which I've been informed by the internet was not debuted in the finale, but it sparkled.

• 38:41Speaker 07

  But it was this season.

• 38:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Incredible.

• 38:44Speaker 07

  Tom, Tom does funny things when he goes away. Like it makes me love him so much, just as a side conversation.

• 38:52Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 38:53Speaker 07

  You know, I think he just gets a little bit like loose and doesn't, he's not focusing on the restaurants as much. He's not as stressed perhaps. And he- You know, when we were in New Orleans in season 11, he went out one day just before the finale too. We had a day off and he was missing his sons. They were much younger then. And he went out to Frenchman Street and got a giant tattoo out of nowhere, first tattoo he'd ever had. And he was like over 50. He just decided that day that he wanted a tattoo and he got a giant tattoo of his sons' names on his arm in this beautiful script and like came back really casually the next day to shoot. And I was like, what the F is that? But he was just like, yeah, just felt like it. And since then, he's had

• 39:33Speaker 07

  like eight tattoos. But then on this season, he walked into the set one day with new ear piercings. Actually, to be fair, apparently he had them or at least one of them before from years and years ago and they'd closed up. And he was like, I was in a mood. I went and got my ears pierced.

• 39:49Andy Greenwald?

  Restaurant people.

• 39:49Speaker 07

  I love that for him. Yeah.

• 39:51Andy Greenwald?

  You take them out of the restaurants, but they still have that energy.

• 39:54Speaker 07

  Yeah, I know.

• 39:55Andy Greenwald?

  So with the lack of break between the penultimate episode and the finale, what opportunity did you and Tom and Kristen have to discuss what you expected? Is that even a worthwhile question? Did you expect certain things coming into the finale? And were those expectations met or subverted in any ways with what was actually served?

• 40:16Speaker 07

  Um, you know, we only talk about it to a certain extent because you can't put expectations on them in that way. You have no idea what they're going to do. I mean, you have some idea, obviously, of eating their food through the season. You know the direction. We knew that Lawrence was going to pull from Chinese-American roots. We knew he was gonna, you know, he knew that trajectory. We knew that Rhoda had been starting to really show us this beautiful Filipino home cooking elevated. We knew that Sheri would bring in the skill and technique she had from the restaurant she worked in with, you know, her Brazilian background. Like, we knew the generals, but I don't think you

• 40:57Speaker 07

  can ever expect. And I think when you do have too much expectation, you're largely disappointed, right? Because they need to show you who they are. You can't, you can't force on anyone, but certainly not on a chef in this creative outlet.

• 41:13Speaker 07

  What you want them to do, you know, it's like children, you need to meet them where they are. And so that was a weird metaphor, but you know what I mean? You really, you can't, there's just no way of knowing where they're gonna pull from, where their inspiration is and what is meaningful to them. And that's the beauty, I think, of the finale, that we finally release them from all of the parameters. And finally, after, you know, 13 episodes of making sure they cook us exactly what we want in these very narrow terms, we let them just show us what they can do. And I find whenever I do really discuss it in advance or have expectations, which I have had over the years, I, I'm disappointed, truly. I'm like, oh, it's never as good as I want it to be.

• 41:57Speaker 07

  There was a technical error here, but it takes all the joy out of them just cooking from the heart. Right? And it does, it's not about being perfect sometimes. It's about sort of showing us themselves and pushing themselves and giving us a piece of who they are. And I want that to be soulful and meaningful and delicious, more than I want it to be this like fussy perfection. Does that make sense?

• 42:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and then I think you got what you wanted because I think, at least from an audience perspective, this was a quite imperfect finale in terms of the cooking. I was struck by, and I wonder if there's any aspect of this that can be credited to the lack of break, like just some pretty fundamental temperature, plating, cooking method, decision-making errors that left you guys with what seemed like, I couldn't tell, honestly, I couldn't tell ultimately if this was an incredibly hard decision because everybody kind of messed up, or if ultimately it was an easy decision because one person didn't mess up as egregiously as the other two on the technical things.

• 43:04Speaker 07

  I would say both. It was a hard decision. It was a hard decision because all of them did at least one thing that we absolutely loved, that we couldn't stop thinking about, that really blew us away. And all, each of them also.

• 43:20Speaker 07

  Had something of a flaw along the way, if not more. But all of their dishes, I think, were actually, in some ways, more ambitious than we often get in the finale. I think they used ingredients that we don't often see. I think they pushed themselves to sort of show us what they really could do that they'd been holding back a little bit. It wasn't perfect, and I guess there's an argument, we'll never really know, to be made that they were tired, because they were definitely tired. I mean, they were tired by Restaurant Wars. They're always tired by Restaurant Wars.

• 44:02Speaker 07

  But the good thing is that it kind of doesn't matter, because, again, as we say all the time, it's greater on a bell curve. We're not comparing their dishes that night to dishes they've made in the past, to other chefs, to what I could get somewhere else. We're only comparing them to each other in this sort of bubble of a scenario. And across the board, they were all tired. They all had the same challenges. They were all up against the same timeline. So, in a way, you just have to sort of clear your mind of like, what could have been, you know, the what ifs of if we'd given them a break, or, you know. There were a moment or two of disappointment, for sure, about temperature, about cooking, done this once or twice.

• 44:46Speaker 07

  You know, two or three dishes sort of stand out to me that way. But really, I think it was an even race, and we truly were sort of stumped at the very end of the meal. It was not obviously clear.

• 45:00Andy Greenwald?

  I actually think that the analogy you made towards meeting children where they are is very useful here, because I definitely found, as a viewer this season, I mean, how could I not be comparing seasons to seasons?

• 45:11Speaker 07

  Yeah, of course.

• 45:12Andy Greenwald?

  Particularly, there was disappointment that I felt when I realized that, at least from a viewer perspective, having not tasted the food, none of the contestants were really elevating and transcending in a way that some of the legendary greats, or even the more recent greats, like a Buddha or Tristan did. You know, Buddha was made in a lab to destroy cooking competitions.

• 45:32Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 45:35Andy Greenwald?

  Came out of, Kristen didn't come out of nowhere, but his arc over the season was almost scripted in the sense that, oh, my God, the prince who was promised has been here the entire time.

• 45:43Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 45:43Andy Greenwald?

  And he's applying.

• 45:44Speaker 07

  And built and built.

• 45:45Andy Greenwald?

  And found a beautiful way to express his natural gifts through the prism of the challenges. Whereas someone like Lawrence, who I loved as a contestant, I imagine I would love as a person and whose food I would choose 10 times out of 10.

• 45:57Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 45:58Andy Greenwald?

  Stayed within his comfort zone, elevating, but within his comfort zone.

• 46:02Speaker 07

  He did.

• 46:02Andy Greenwald?

  So I wonder how you are able to keep your focus on the specifics of the season you are judging without remembering what is possible within the framework you've created year after year.

• 46:15Speaker 07

  I mean, that's interesting because I think we've had seasons where we've thought that much more so, actually. In Wisconsin, I remember we thought that a lot. We had many more discussions about it. What was interesting about this cast was, especially in the first five or six episodes.

• 46:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 46:30Speaker 07

  They all crushed it together on days that they crushed it. And they all flunked and flopped together on the days that they flopped.

• 46:37Andy Greenwald?

  They sure did.

• 46:37Speaker 07

  And it was a bit of a roller coaster that way. We couldn't figure out what was happening. Like, but they were also, I don't know, they all played on each other really, really well. And there were certainly some really memorable challenges and really memorable dishes. And I don't know, I'm so used to just thinking about it the way that I described, that it is on a bell curve, that it has nothing to do with how Melissa King cooked or how Buddha cooked or how Tristan cooked or, you know, any number of. Or Kristin Kish, exactly. That all we have to do is think, what was the best thing we ate today? And what was the least best thing we ate today? Those are the parameters. And that's part of why it's set up that way. You can't judge it like as a mark out of 10.

• 47:22Speaker 07

  It doesn't, it's not a science, right? It is, it is a craft. And you need to think about it holistically, I think, in the scenario you're in. You know what I mean? You can't compare it to, you know, it's like sports. When we talk about this all the time, anyway, like, it doesn't matter how you played yesterday or how you could play tomorrow. It's how you played the game that day against the opponents who were there on the field.

• 47:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 47:52Speaker 07

  And, and I think that.

• 47:55Speaker 07

  We have really trained ourselves to remember that along the way. And when we don't, we're reminded by each other. And, and most importantly, perhaps, we have a fourth judge at the table, sometimes a fifth.

• 48:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 48:06Speaker 07

  Who have no context and they are so vital to that process, to bringing us back to what is right in front of us and not worrying about anything else because it doesn't matter. There's no way to judge it fairly if you bring in those factors.

• 48:18Andy Greenwald?

  I imagine the actual Grindr production is incredibly intense. And so the opportunities to adjust are probably minimal. But are there producerial discussions mid-season or post certain challenges about ways in which maybe you could nudge things in a direction to, to challenge, to surprise? Because, you know, there, there are obviously producerial decisions in that direction made before the season, like let's bring in a couple, let's bring in brothers.

• 48:44Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 48:44Andy Greenwald?

  And the potential.

• 48:45Speaker 07

  The casting, sure.

• 48:46Andy Greenwald?

  The casting, the potential conflict never happened. It was all very pleasant, which I, I like.

• 48:49Speaker 07

  We always talk, especially the quick fires, but there's always room for decision making that we talk through in the challenges. I mean, certain things are set, the parameters, the theme, but we can adjust the time, we can adjust the ingredients. We can adjust certain factors because we are, we are hit with real life scenarios all the time. You know, we cooked overnight for a barbecue challenge and right before we went to judge's table, there was a massive possible tornado cyclone hurricane situation. And, you know, we had to stop down and pivot and figure it out. And so that's extreme, but we definitely look at each challenge as we come to it because they are written before we start the season and then we go into execution.

• 49:32Speaker 07

  And there's always a, hold on a second, can they do this? Are they as a group capable of pulling this off? Because we also don't want to give them something that then everyone's going to flunk and then no one looks good. But after episode two this season, which was our chili pepper challenge.

• 49:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 49:50Speaker 07

  We realized that yes, they're capable. You know, they didn't do great in episode one and they didn't do great in episode three, but they crushed it in episode two. So we knew we could push them a little bit more than we were worried about.

• 50:04Andy Greenwald?

  And push yourselves. You filmed that inside what appeared to be a torture chamber?

• 50:10Speaker 07

  It was a torture chamber. It was 97 degrees and we were eating ghost peppers for breakfast.

• 50:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, this is season 23. You don't have to do this.

• 50:20Speaker 07

  But you want to know what's interesting about that challenge that I keep saying? We ate that multi-course chili pepper meal and we, so we were hot, like we were sweating because it was August in the Carolinas. But I ate some cucumbers along the way to like cool my mouth, but it didn't blow us away. I was prepared. Like we walked in thinking we're going to be like in bed for three days grabbing our bellies. And all of us were fine because they actually figured out how to use the peppers in such beautiful ways. They didn't blow us out at all. Even Rhoda, who won that challenge with her final course, which was the hottest possible pepper, we loved it. And we didn't love it in a way that's like you love it and you're eating it and it's so good and so good. And then

• 51:05Speaker 07

  you stop for two seconds and realize that you're about to like keel over. We got, we got there. We were fine. It was a shock to us all.

• 51:13Andy Greenwald?

  I genuinely, I respect, genuinely to them and to you guys. So you mentioned the, the lack of travel in the finale. And so that does bring up the elephant or maybe the peacock in the room, which is as a longtime viewer, it couldn't help but feel that there have been some budget trims over the years. And it felt particularly this year, slightly claustrophobic, that there were a lot of in-studio challenges, that there were, there was a less, fewer opportunities to be out and in about. Last Chance Kitchen being trimmed by a number of weeks and only one contestant returning from it. Just these, these smaller things on the margins, up to and including in an episode that I think was rightly acclaimed.

• 51:59Andy Greenwald?

  I think there were two takeaways from the Asheville episode. One was this is what Top Chef does best, connecting contemporary events, culture, emotion, family, storytelling and food. Two, also watching it and being like, they took a two-hour drive and none of the judges and Kristen didn't come with them and some of the restaurants, they just did a drive-by. That felt small.

• 52:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's interesting.

• 52:22Andy Greenwald?

  I.

• 52:22Speaker 07

  So let me just.

• 52:22Andy Greenwald?

  Broadly.

• 52:23Speaker 07

  It's actually totally different. No, no, it's really interesting. You picked up on all those different things and you are right and wrong about them.

• 52:30Andy Greenwald?

  Love it.

• 52:31Speaker 07

  First of all, we did just as many in studio challenges as we have done in the last five years.

• 52:36Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 52:37Speaker 07

  Uh, we have a mandate because we build a giant studio uh that we have to do, well, we do almost all our quick fires there and we have to do, I think, at least two eliminations there. I, I, I could be wrong. Like, I can't have the con, you know, I don't have the details in front of me, but that's the same as we've been doing actually for the last several years. That did not change. I actually felt like we were out in the most beautiful locations so much, but what did change is that usually, obviously, this isn't a secret. We work very closely with the C V B of every city we're going to, right? With the Visitors Bureau and the um tourist, you know, the Tourism Board, the city, the mayor, or, or the state. Um,

• 53:20Speaker 07

  and this year, the Carolina stepped up in such a big way that that was their deal. They wanted the whole thing. Usually, we don't, we don't sell them the whole thing, but they made a really compelling argument for being in different places and moving, you know, to, from Charlotte, obviously basing ourselves in Charlotte, but then moving to Greenville and doing three full episodes in Greenville and then a little bit in Asheville. But that was because there were different cities playing into it.

• 53:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 53:48Speaker 07

  And Charlotte and, and Greenville gave us 90% of the support we needed. And Asheville, we wanted to do Asheville. That was us wanting to honor Asheville. Obviously, Asheville is known for so much of its culinary. It has an amazing dining scene for such a small place. And so we wanted to go to Asheville. Um, so we did it the best we could because we, it really wasn't in the resources of what.

• 54:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 54:13Speaker 07

  Um, you know, in as big a way as the other two places. So we found a creative way to work Asheville and Hurricane Relief and speak to some of those chefs who we tried to get to come to Charlotte and for other reasons weren't able to make it. Um. So, you know, we had to use a budget creatively, but it wasn't necessarily because it was trimmed that we didn't go on a finale. It was just more that South, that North Carolina and specifically Charlotte came to us with such a big plan.

• 54:43Andy Greenwald?

  That's interesting.

• 54:43Speaker 07

  They were like, this is what we want to do. We want to keep it here the whole time.

• 54:47Andy Greenwald?

  I also think-

• 54:47Speaker 07

  As I understand it.

• 54:48Andy Greenwald?

  Part of it is also, I think that, you know, there's, there's benefits to filming more regionally that are, that are exciting and seeing things we've never seen before. But I would also imagine it presents an issue in terms of scheduling and budget too, to then bring in recognizable chefs.

• 55:01Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 55:01Andy Greenwald?

  You know, you want to celebrate local, but you also want some bigger celeb guests, things like that.

• 55:05Speaker 07

  For sure. All of the above.

• 55:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 55:07Speaker 07

  But interestingly, when you mentioned Last Chance Kitchen, that's a completely separate budget, actually. It's a completely different show. It operates like its own show, actually. So the changes with that definitely came to play, but that had nothing to do with the, with Top Chef proper that we were making. So yes, there was a different sponsor, you know, there were sponsorship changes and, and certainly they chose to make it a smaller show this year.

• 55:37Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 55:37Speaker 07

  But it has nothing to do with sort of like the bigger picture of Top Chef itself. That would have happened no matter what.

• 55:44Andy Greenwald?

  And I say this as a, as a fan and someone who wants the show to be healthy. I was also concerned by the, the time slot shenanigans. You know-

• 55:52Speaker 07

  Me too.

• 55:53Andy Greenwald?

  And it felt like Kristen was too. Kristen was out, out there about it.

• 55:56Speaker 07

  Oh, we were both.

• 55:57Andy Greenwald?

  On, on social media, like-

• 55:59Speaker 07

  Well, because she gets heat for it and it all falls to her and us. I mean, because we're the ones who get yelled at by fans. But want to know something interesting?

• 56:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, very much.

• 56:09Speaker 07

  It didn't matter.

• 56:10Andy Greenwald?

  Now, is it, it doesn't matter because the fans are the fans or it doesn't matter because increasingly people are watching it on Tuesdays on Peacock anyway? And so 9:45 is abstract to them.

• 56:18Speaker 07

  Correct. It was a weird social experiment and it annoyed us because-

• 56:24Speaker 07

  We're all not Gen Z alphas and we don't understand how TV works these days. But the proof is in the numbers, which is so interesting. And I wish I could get more specific. I just don't have that information. But the story is actually pretty amazing. It drove us nuts. And then also that same thing that always happens with social media that like the few people who are the loudest get the attention.

• 56:48Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 07

  But it turns out there's only a few of them. You know, in comparison to the numbers we're seeing. So as frustrating it is as it is for me, because I want to say Mondays at nine.

• 57:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 57:01Speaker 07

  And it moved 16 times. Apparently, everyone's really thrilled and it didn't make enough of a big difference.

• 57:08Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 57:09Speaker 07

  To really be a problem, which I actually think is fascinating.

• 57:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, as a study in the, I mean, the show has straddled so many eras that it can continue to thrive and adjust and evolve is a good thing.

• 57:19Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 57:20Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, so we have to talk about two specific moments, obviously. I did think that I was trying to, I was doing the TikTok, as in the clock, not the app. What went on here? And I think we can trace it all back to Chekhov's Tire Swing. Because from what I remember correctly, Jen swung on a tire swing right before showing up in the Carolinas, injured her shoulder, and then a lot of crazy stuff happened all because of that initial injury.

• 57:44Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 57:45Andy Greenwald?

  So.

• 57:45Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 57:46Andy Greenwald?

  So she's in.

• 57:46Speaker 07

  As I understand it as well.

• 57:47Andy Greenwald?

  So she was injured. She arrives slightly injured. It gets, she exacerbates the injury through repetitive chopping and doing all the things she needs to do as a cook. She sits out one or two quick fires. She is warned that we can't really accommodate this. She says, I'm gonna stay, but then has to go due to an onset of what may have been Bell's palsy or something.

• 58:08Speaker 07

  It was Bell's palsy. Yes, I think, I hope that's.

• 58:11Andy Greenwald?

  No, I think that was public. It wasn't on the episode, but.

• 58:13Speaker 07

  Which, by the way, is, was related, but Bell's palsy is a whole other thing and it's a virus, right? As I understand it. And it's brought on, I'm not quite sure how, stress.

• 58:23Andy Greenwald?

  I think stress plus.

• 58:25Speaker 07

  I don't know.

• 58:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, so she, so she has to go. Justin, who has been eliminated, her partner, is offered the chance to stay. And he lovingly and generously says, I need to be with her. So he leaves.

• 58:40Andy Greenwald?

  Now, what we learned, I think awkwardly this season, is that the Last Chance Kitchen taping is not happening concurrently with the rhythm of the show. This is something that, you know, the magic of television-

• 58:50Speaker 07

  Yeah, we saved them up. We saved them up and do them in bulk.

• 58:53Andy Greenwald?

  We didn't-

• 58:54Speaker 07

  Because we need a few people at a time.

• 58:55Andy Greenwald?

  And we didn't know that. So what led to was a very, very strange, felt like, cover-up situation, briefly.

• 59:02Speaker 07

  Oh, did that? That's funny.

• 59:02Andy Greenwald?

  Well, only because we-

• 59:05Speaker 07

  You didn't know what was happening.

• 59:06Andy Greenwald?

  We didn't know what was happening. Because, so, Seeger does not show up in Last Chance Kitchen. No one shows up in Last Chance Kitchen. The next week, Justin shows up in Last Chance Kitchen, having determined that Jen is well enough for him to compete. He loses, and Rhoda comes back, eventually. But Seeger has already come back.

• 59:23Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 59:24Andy Greenwald?

  Any lessons to be learned here in regards to the Last Chance Kitchen of it all? Or is this really a freak one-off in which a contestant is injured and everyone tried to do their best?

• 59:34Speaker 07

  It was a freak runoff. I mean, it was, it was just an unmitigated circumstance that we could have never anticipated.

• 59:42Speaker 07

  The onset of what, you know, when we saw her suffering, really, that last day, you could see that, like, beyond her shoulder, her face was paralyzed. And it was getting worse and worse. And we just had to call, I mean, you have to call it, right? We need you. At what cost are you doing this to yourself, right? And so, as a organization, we have to say, it's time for you to take care of yourself. And, and then, the sort of domino effect of, okay, well, what do we do now? It just was this, you know, that was the, the good and bad of bringing in a couple, that by what are the chances? That the last person to have been eliminated in that episode was Justin. And then, did he want to stay or go?

• 1:00:26Speaker 07

  Well, he did, I think, the right thing. And all of a sudden, we had to figure it out, because there was no footprint for this. There's no precedence.

• 1:00:35Speaker 07

  It's, it was happening in real time. And I remember that night, staying really late, and Kristen saying even later, to film that conversation with Justin, to go in and tell him, because Jennifer was at the hospital, and we all sort of were waiting. I ended up going home, and I was waiting for Kristen to text me, to tell me what was happening, because we needed to know where the show was gonna go. And Donnie, our showrunner, was in touch with us all. And, and we were figuring it out as we went along.

• 1:01:03Speaker 07

  So I, you know, I can't imagine it would ever happen again. You know, we want, we wished we could have like shown more of her journey.

• 1:01:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:11Speaker 07

  But also, there's only so much you can follow someone into an urgent care situation. But, but we just want to make sure she was better, and she is, she has made a recovery.

• 1:01:21Andy Greenwald?

  We're glad about that. Downstream of this decision, Seeger is eliminated, is saved by a act of God, dodges Rota in Last Chance Kitchen, survives deeper into the competition, makes chicken liver parfait in 90-degree heat that looks frankly, deeply unappealing.

• 1:01:41Speaker 07

  It was unappealing.

• 1:01:42Andy Greenwald?

  Even to a viewer, and then has an all-time crash out at judges' table, something that we haven't seen on the show maybe ever, and also kind of bracingly broke the seal of a very beautiful, supportive, genteel kind of vibe that has been cultivated over the last few years, where everyone is supporting each other, everyone is there to make friends, and, you know, eliminations are tough but fair. How shocked were all of you? How much did we not see?

• 1:02:15Speaker 07

  So, where do we begin? Yes, the chicken liver mousse was unappealing. Again, that we are living and judged on a bell curve of what was the best thing we ate that day and what was the worst thing we ate that day, under the circumstances of the challenge that were given. And it was very obvious to us that although he had good intentions and there was good flavor, it was not a successful dish for a few reasons.

• 1:02:46Speaker 07

  You know, we know the chefs so peripherally in terms of their personal relationship to us.

• 1:02:55Speaker 07

  We had been hearing a little bit of grumblings. We caught kind of small whiffs of perhaps overconfidence. But he also had done some amazing things in the course of his trajectory on the show. I mean, yes, he got eliminated and there were a few clunkers, but there was also some really amazing moments for Seeger, I think, food-wise. It was a surprise to us. I always say that I'm actually surprised it doesn't happen more often because it is very hard to take criticism. Even if we are trying to be constructive, you are on camera being told what you failed at. And that is an incredibly hard pill to swallow, no matter how, who you are.

• 1:03:39Speaker 07

  I mean, Tom always says, you chose to be a chef, you will get reviewed in your career. That is the path you chose. If you want to be a restaurant chef, you will be critiqued. If you want to be an opera singer, if you want to be an athlete, if you want to be a dancer, a singer, an actor, you will be critiqued. That is the craft that you've chosen. I think what happened with Seeger was, you know, I'm still trying to process what happened with Seeger. Truthfully, there was a lot you didn't see. There was a lot more conversation back and forth between all of us. Spirited. But then you did see, you really saw, I think, the crux of what happened. He didn't understand, from what I could take away, why he was going home because he followed the challenge.

• 1:04:24Speaker 07

  He incorporated two or more ingredients from the Appalachian pantry. He made a dish that he finished. But what I don't understand is like, someone has to go. And of all the things we tasted, like, everybody was successful in doing that. Every single person used two or more ingredients. And every single person finished their dish and served us something great. And even if it was great, it was the least great of the five dishes that day.

• 1:04:51Andy Greenwald?

  I think the show has really thrived as it has steered away, and I say has steered away. This is like already 20 years old, but there's very little of the quote unquote "reality show" left. It is a very, very high-minded and supportive competition program. But that said, there are some reality elements and eliminated contestants don't go home. So he's stewing around Charlotte somewhere and then comes back for the finale. Was there any bumpiness or any friction that you perceived of? Was that ever an issue?

• 1:05:21Speaker 07

  Well, I was wondering the same thing, but he did calm down. And then in everything I've heard from Rhoda and seen on the final cut, and then I actually this morning was reading an interview with Rhoda about that exact question of how was it then cooking with Seeger, knowing what had happened in his elimination? She was like so thrilled to have him and she knew he would show up for her and he did. He cooked his heart out for her. He supported her. He executed as she needed him to. And they worked really, really well together and they're really close. And in fact, I think he just flew to Hawaii to cook a dinner with her last night or over the last couple of days. So I think he was able to get over it. I wish I understood what his point was more.

• 1:06:05Speaker 07

  And what was he trying to tell us? I'm not totally sure.

• 1:06:08Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not going to give him his flowers for being willing. He was willing to fly to Hawaii.

• 1:06:13Speaker 07

  No, no, I'm just saying that they are so close. I'm just making the point that they are so close. She invited him, right? So like they, it worked.

• 1:06:20Andy Greenwald?

  All of these people are professionals. They've worked with high, you know, hot-blooded.

• 1:06:23Speaker 07

  No, but they are particularly close is what I mean, even after this happening.

• 1:06:27Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. So I have to call you guys in this and find out what was going on. There was some feeling that the, that, you know, that Nana should have gone home in the first episode for the ring mold, but I'm not on that camp. I loved that episode. I love for the way it demonstrated the evolving role of the judges. You guys in your pastoral role, especially Kristen and what she brings to the show. And also Tom being like, I liked it more. Good for Tom. So I'm not worried about that. There was one elimination that still sticks in my craw and I need to know. Stand more about it.

• 1:06:57Speaker 07

  Oh, tell me.

• 1:06:58Andy Greenwald?

  So Rhoda is amazing at the top, falls to the bottom, Last Chance Kitchen. She boat races everyone, she christens, she she crescendos back in as a as a top line.

• 1:07:09Speaker 07

  Oh, I know where you're coming.

• 1:07:10Andy Greenwald?

  She walks back in and her reward for winning Last Chance Kitchen in such a dominating fashion is to get shanked. No, that would be lamb shank, shivved with dessert.

• 1:07:20Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:07:21Andy Greenwald?

  Set up to fail, does fail, makes what is clearly, to the audience, the worst dish of the day. And then Oscar goes home because he put rice on his plate. That felt a little.

• 1:07:35Speaker 07

  Terrible under.

• 1:07:36Andy Greenwald?

  Hand of God a little bit. That felt a little.

• 1:07:39Speaker 07

  It wasn't, as I remember it, and again, it's so hard to remember it all.

• 1:07:46Speaker 07

  But I and I try to remember it versus just pull from what the show showed you, you know what I mean? His dish, the rice was terrible. Like, the rice was legitimately not great, and it should have been.

• 1:07:59Andy Greenwald?

  If if he was going to add something that was duplicative or redundant, since his assignment wasn't to make rice. Is that the thinking? So he added something he shouldn't have, and the thing he added was bad.

• 1:08:09Speaker 07

  But but you know, it wasn't like, there was no hand of God. It was really just like, again, sometimes when there's a few things that are sort of in the same, at the same level, and we have to make a decision, there's no, well, let's just not send anyone home, or let's send Dube home. We go about it from different angles, and often it's, well, what would I rather eat again? And I would rather eat that dessert 100 times over than eat what Oscar served us. It just wasn't successful. It wasn't delicious. Hers was a bit of a mess. It was. But it wasn't like, there was nothing sort of like

• 1:08:45Speaker 07

  bad tasting about it or texturally bad about it. It just wasn't skillfully put together.

• 1:08:51Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, I'll allow it. Plus, she won, and she deserved to be there, and I would have been angrier if she was gone, but I'm just saying.

• 1:08:56Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:56Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, so.

• 1:08:57Speaker 07

  No, it's a it's a good perspective. I like hearing all this stuff. It's very helpful. I you I've said this before, you should be a producer on the show. You should be the audience producer.

• 1:09:06Andy Greenwald?

  Give me a call.

• 1:09:08Andy Greenwald?

  We, I have plenty of questions that we don't really have time for about just like, you know, I like talking to you very much about the state of the industry as well as the way it reflects on Top Chef. So I think I can sort of consolidate that into one basic question, which is, one of the beauties of the show over many years and now decades has been seeing the way the show has both led the industry and responded to changes in the industry. And you can see changes from like the, you know, the dominating masculine brigade system to this beautiful moment when diners' eyes and stomachs turned towards cuisines they may not have been familiar with and the contestants reflected that. We are in a very, very strange and kind of dark moment, I would say economically, certainly. I mean, generally, yes, but particularly for the restaurant industry at the moment.

• 1:09:53Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:09:53Andy Greenwald?

  And here's a quote I want to give you from a recent interview in New York Magazine with Dan Kluger, who's a great chef in New York.

• 1:10:00Speaker 07

  Yes, I love him so much and I love his restaurant.

• 1:10:02Andy Greenwald?

  Blurring place, which he is closing after 10 years.

• 1:10:04Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:10:04Andy Greenwald?

  So here's the question and the answer.

• 1:10:06Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 1:10:06Andy Greenwald?

  Here's the question. How do you operate in a place where you need to charge $50 for an appetizer that once cost $20? And Dan's answer, you don't, which is why we're closing.

• 1:10:17Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 1:10:18Andy Greenwald?

  This is the moment that restaurants are in.

• 1:10:21Speaker 07

  I mean, three restaurants, major to me, important, vital restaurants to the life blood of New York City, closed last week, or planning or announced closure last week.

• 1:10:31Andy Greenwald?

  Including Tom Colicchio's craft.

• 1:10:33Speaker 07

  Correct.

• 1:10:35Andy Greenwald?

  So how can, or how should Top Chef reflect this reality? Or how does the contestant pool reflect this reality?

• 1:10:45Speaker 07

  I think that your earlier question about budget constraints does reflect this reality. But there is still appetite for what we do. And we are so lucky that we can give our contestants.

• 1:10:59Speaker 07

  The means to do it on our show. Our show isn't the real world, right? We know that. But we do pride ourselves in it reflecting real world circumstances of what it takes to run a restaurant or be a chef today. Obviously, we are not including so many things. We give them the money they need.

• 1:11:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:18Speaker 07

  Obviously, we do put constraints on it. They're never like, you know, I think it's not actually helpful to just say, oh, you have all the money you need to buy caviar and foie gras.

• 1:11:28Andy Greenwald?

  And they get 2.5% back also. Let's be clear about that.

• 1:11:33Speaker 07

  Correct, there's cash back.

• 1:11:35Andy Greenwald?

  That's been mentioned.

• 1:11:35Speaker 07

  Wells Fargo, thank you very much. Um, we love Wells Fargo. But we, you know, I do think that it is still a hard, it's still challenging. But what I think it allows people to do is to push themselves creatively, to figure out what they can serve that still reflects who they are when you're not relying on the crutches of easy luxury.

• 1:12:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:12:02Speaker 07

  Um, and, and I think that that actually is really important to the moment we're in. You know, I read an interview and for what it's worth, I'll send it to you after this call because I've sent it to so many people. It's actually was written by a chef in Toronto who I'm friendly with, who I was on Top Chef Canada with and whose restaurants we ate at a lot when we were shooting in Canada last season. Um, and he's a chef I respect a great deal. And he, um, wrote an article recently. And what he said, like, I can't get out of my head. And it's very similar to what Dan Pfluger said, which is that he said, the problem is that restaurant, and I'm paraphrasing.

• 1:12:45Speaker 07

  The problem is that restaurants are unable to charge the prices of what food costs. They have to charge what diners are willing to spend. And there is such a massive discrepancy between the two. And diners have no idea. And if we really charge, if we, I do not run a restaurant for this reason, if restaurants really charge for profit margins like that reflect the margins of any other industry in the world, no one would go to restaurants.

• 1:13:20Speaker 07

  Interestingly, if I may say, I am about to publish a book in November called Guesting. And it tackles this question in a big way in part of the book about how to be a good guest in all different scenarios. And much of the book is about going to people's homes and building community and the reciprocal relationship between host and guest. But a third of the book, sorry, a quarter of the book is dedicated to restaurants and how to be a good guest in restaurants. And it really breaks that down. Why we don't understand when we go to a restaurant, that is, it is not just transactional. And in fact, we are getting nine times out of 10, an amazing deal.

• 1:13:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:56Speaker 07

  And let's act accordingly. And let's respect and show grace for the people who choose to do this for us for a living. Because it is, especially right now, financially, almost near impossible.

• 1:14:11Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think also Top Chef has done a lot of great work, and the contestants, particularly when they've left the show, in educating people, not just on what the cost is, financial, emotional

• 1:14:23Speaker 07

  Right.

• 1:14:24Andy Greenwald?

  labor, but also that there is such a profoundly ingrained disparity between what we think should cost certain amounts of money. So seeing like what Kwame's done in New York with ingredients that maybe people weren't, or Paul Carmichael at Kabawa, right, being like, yes,

• 1:14:38Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:14:39Andy Greenwald?

  this is built on a tradition of things that you can get on the corner in Brooklyn, but we are elevating it. And there's a, you can pay for tortillas, and you can pay for ethnic food, or Chinese, or Chinese food.

• 1:14:47Speaker 07

  Chinese food is, I always say, is, and it goes back to a lot of things. I mean, there's so many layers to unpack here. But, you know, the traditional cheap takeout,

• 1:14:57Andy Greenwald?

  right? Yes.

• 1:14:59Speaker 07

  And that is xenophobic, but it is also ingrained in American culture in a way that has to change. Because we now know that so many of these cuisines are the great cuisines of the world. And to do them well and with

• 1:15:13Speaker 07

  Education and thought and with the best quality ingredients, those same best quality ingredients that we expect when we go to Le Bernardin or to Kraft, you have to pay for it.

• 1:15:25Andy Greenwald?

  But now, what do we do about this moment where the first decade of Top Chef, it was clear, you win Top Chef, you open a restaurant in your hometown, and then you have a restaurant empire, and then you do whatever you want. Second decade of Top Chef, you win Top Chef and you become a brand and you, you know, you consult and you you work on yourself and you don't tie yourself to one place.

• 1:15:45Speaker 07

  You go work on the Food Network.

• 1:15:46Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly.

• 1:15:46Speaker 07

  They give you a show or two.

• 1:15:48Andy Greenwald?

  We are now in this era where we are in the fried chicken with caviar era, right? Like, that's all anybody wants to eat, 1% or 99%, and you put caviar on the fried chicken and you charge whatever. And that's where we're at. What do we do with the, or who are the next generation of contestants? And what are their ambitions? Because I think that, and again, I'm not faulting anyone, but to come on and be like, I am a ninja of execution and fine dining like Buddha. Well, what is the end game for that these days without a restaurant? The creativity of a Richard Blazer, countless other contestants, who I'm not really thinking of at this exact moment. But like, do they come in with that same creativity? Or are they just like, I live in the world as it is and my margins are what they are?

• 1:16:33Andy Greenwald?

  And I'm just gonna cook.

• 1:16:34Speaker 07

  No, I think they come in with bigger aspirations. And I think a lot of them come in. I do, because we always say like, just keep cooking. You know what I mean? Like, you win, it's very easy to be distracted by the shiny lights and the sparkles of the caviar. But if you stop cooking, and I don't mean restaurant cooking is the only way to cook. But if you stop cooking, it's very hard to maintain that level of respect, right? In the industry. But I look at so many successful chefs whose food I admire so much. Melissa King, for example, who markedly actually never had a restaurant for any of us to go to. But she has managed to be relevant because she is so good at what she does.

• 1:17:19Speaker 07

  And she is a creative. And she's able to bring that to us in many different ways, whether it's to her book, or pop-ups, or, you know, any number of things that she that she does, travel the country, collaborations. And I do think that there's a lot to be said for that. We all. They need to make a living, number one. And I know for sure that it is easier for Melissa to make a living doing what she's doing. I'm just using her as an example than it is for most restaurant chefs who have one restaurant that they are. Not always, but often just like, you know, tied to day after day, just the financials. Um, she doesn't have a staff, she doesn't have a lease.

• 1:18:00Speaker 07

  Um, so, you know, I think that's reality and that doesn't mean that they're not chefs and that their experience and that their creativity, creativity isn't valid. I, I just think that we're gonna see more of it because at the end of the day, people need to make a, a living wage. And that sounds crazy, but also so simple. So any way you can do that while doing what you love is a gift, I think. And I think that there's just, we, we are a little traditional in that, you know, where I was like, just go back to the restaurant and put your head down and cook. That's not, there, what's this, there's many ways to skin a cat, that is a weird expression.

• 1:18:38Andy Greenwald?

  It is really weird.

• 1:18:38Speaker 07

  But, you know, there's just so many ways and I think we, we all will fall behind if we maintain only that thinking. I mean.

• 1:18:47Andy Greenwald?

  We're, we're all Uber drivers now, Gail.

• 1:18:49Speaker 07

  Right, well, also me too, right? Like, I was a journalist, like, I, I worked at Food and Wine Magazine for 15 years. That's how I got this gig. And sometimes people ask me now, well, what do you do? Like, if Top Chef only takes eight weeks of your year, what do you do? What are you? And I'm like, I'm still a journalist. Just because I'm not working at a legacy media company anymore, I'm actually doing way more. Um, and my platform has allowed me, I mean, being on Top Chef is reporting and research and exploration and giving voice to my industry. Um, the books I'm able to write, the articles I'm able to write, the, you know, keynote speeches, the research.

• 1:19:32Speaker 07

  I still, you know, but it's just about thinking you can't be, you can't get stuck in how it was 20 years ago when I started this gig. You have to evolve. And I think the chefs have actually done a great job of that. That was a very long answer.

• 1:19:43Andy Greenwald?

  No, I find this fascinating and it's part of, I mean, I think we touch on this in different versions every year we get to talk.

• 1:19:47Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:19:48Andy Greenwald?

  And it stays relevant and it stays interesting.

• 1:19:50Speaker 07

  It'll be interesting to see what Rhoda does too, because she's at Obers in, on the big island, which is gorgeous. And she's the chef there and I hope she stays there and for a while and shows, you know, because I think now people want to find her. But I also know, she said it herself, like, who knows what her trajectory will be and where she wants to go next. And she's figuring that out. And I'm just really excited to see all of them. I adore them. I really do. I think they were a great group of chefs. But with Rhoda in particular as our winner, I think she will do something unexpected and beautiful. And I think she'll really give a platform to the food that she loves, just as Tristan did.

• 1:20:31Andy Greenwald?

  Truly. We'll go, I'll let you go on this. Every year I do something that is unwelcome, potentially, and impossible, which is I ask you to tease where you're going next. And then inevitably, you do a great job, we can't figure it out. And then like 48 hours later, it's announced. So there's this beautiful little lacune between that. And I wonder if you have anything prepared to tease us with.

• 1:20:51Speaker 07

  I, you know, I'm going to disappoint you this year because often I do know right around now, June is generally, generally when we find out because we start shooting in August. But we are not shooting in August this year. We've been pushed back a little bit, really only for scheduling. It's going to make a lot more sense to our, to our year and our planning for the, for the network, not just our own show. And that's a great thing, but it means that no one has told me anything.

• 1:21:18Andy Greenwald?

  This isn't like, that isn't a hint in itself, like when they.

• 1:21:21Speaker 07

  It's not.

• 1:21:22Andy Greenwald?

  Because remember.

• 1:21:22Speaker 07

  I wish I had better info. All I know is that we will shoot, we will make another season. And that's all I care about. I still have a job, which is awesome.

• 1:21:31Andy Greenwald?

  This isn't like the year.

• 1:21:31Speaker 07

  And every year, it's the cherry on top. You know what I mean?

• 1:21:34Andy Greenwald?

  They.

• 1:21:34Speaker 07

  You can't, you can't take it for granted.

• 1:21:35Andy Greenwald?

  The year they delayed the World Cup, just because they were, it was in Qatar and it was, they had to do it in the winter. This isn't that. This isn't Top Chef Middle East. You're not trying to give us a hint.

• 1:21:43Speaker 07

  No, we're not. No. But that is an amazing reference.

• 1:21:46Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 1:21:46Speaker 07

  But it is not dissimilar, but it is the truth.

• 1:21:49Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. All right. I'm gonna trust you on that.

• 1:21:52Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:21:53Andy Greenwald?

  We're eager to find out when it's announced. Gail, maybe

• 1:21:55Speaker 07

  Me too.

• 1:21:56Andy Greenwald?

  It does. Maybe it will give you time to promote your book and maybe we could talk again more broadly about things then.

• 1:22:01Speaker 07

  Personally, it really allows, well, first of all, allows all of us to have a summer for the first time in years instead of cutting it, you know, early and taking off from my family.

• 1:22:12Speaker 07

  And it's going to allow me a much easier fall because I'm launching my book and going on book tour. So that's like my own personal. And it's going to let us actually plan a couple of great things, I hope, to make sure that this season is the best it can be.

• 1:22:25Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I hope so too, as the unofficial audience consultant.

• 1:22:28Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:22:29Andy Greenwald?

  Gail, thank you. You're always so generous with your time. Thank you.

• 1:22:32Speaker 07

  You give me a lot to think about.

• 1:22:34Andy Greenwald?

  Really appreciate it.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

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