Is ‘Stranger Things’ the Last Gasp of Blockbuster TV? Plus, Why Netflix’s ‘Death by Lightning’ Is Worth Your Time.

Chris and Andy talk about the upcoming premiere of the fifth and final season of ‘Stranger Things’ and how it’s significantly evolved over the years (7:21). Then they discuss why the new Netflix historical drama ‘Death by Lightning,’ starring Michael Shannon and Matthew Macfadyen, is worth your time (18:11). Later, they check in with ‘The Morning Show’ Season 4 (38:38), ‘I Love LA' (47:17), and ‘The Chair Company’ (49:09). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:04Andy Greenwald?

  I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 1:10Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio from London, dead by lightning, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:23Andy Greenwald?

  I haven't seen a lot of lightning here, a lot of rain.

• 1:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25Andy Greenwald?

  Lot of clouds.

• 1:26Chris Ryan?

  Yes, a lot of storming. We've had a lot of like really just right into the BBC shipping forecast here for our listeners. What's up, man? It's Chris and Andy. This will be our last show from London. Because we're going to be back in LA next week, back to regularly scheduled programming. Thanks, everybody, for bearing with us as we erratically publish episodes of this podcast while overseas.

• 1:47Andy Greenwald?

  I'd like to say that we could have done more, but unfortunately, both of us have gotten just outrageously lost here in the Warrens of Spotify UK, which is the most confusing building.

• 1:56Chris Ryan?

  That's true.

• 1:57Andy Greenwald?

  I have ever set foot in.

• 1:58Chris Ryan?

  There are all these missing posters up for podcasters who have gotten lost looking for bathrooms. Correct me if I'm wrong.

• 2:03Andy Greenwald?

  To get out of the studio we're in now, I could turn left or take a series of ramps and end up in the same place.

• 2:09Chris Ryan?

  It's funny you should mention that. Just really quickly, you can email us at the watch at spotify.com. You can follow us at the watch podcast. Watch pod?

• 2:17Andy Greenwald?

  The watch pod.

• 2:18Chris Ryan?

  The watch pod underscored Instagram. You can watch us on the ringer dash TV YouTube channel and on Spotify where you're hopefully listening to us. And last night I was recording an episode of the big picture about Predator Badlands.

• 2:28Andy Greenwald?

  From here?

• 2:29Chris Ryan?

  Yes, which is a film I saw at BFI South Bank IMAX, which was fantastic.

• 2:33Andy Greenwald?

  And you weren't alone. This is a huge hit.

• 2:35Chris Ryan?

  No, it was a big, big hit. Big, big hit. A lot of people had a lot of time for Elle Fanning playing two, two parts.

• 2:41Andy Greenwald?

  When now, pause. When you say two parts, you mean she plays two roles or she is ripped into two parts?

• 2:46Chris Ryan?

  Both. Uh, and anyway, so I was recording the pod and as I was leaving last night, I was just like, goodbye. And walked into one room and then all of a sudden like my, my badge didn't work on one door. And I was like, well, here I am in this other hallway. I'm sure at the other end of it, I should be able to get out, swipe and like, I increasingly was able to swipe through one door and then when that door would close, no longer be able to use it. And getting into smaller and smaller confined spaces until I found myself in like an office lobby somewhere.

• 3:16Andy Greenwald?

  I want to be clear that in, upon check in just now, as opposed to in LA where they are very, very strict about entry and monitoring things and having a little sticker with my bad picture on it that says Kai's name, just in case I need to be returned to my master. The guys here were like, go ahead. And we were both like, does he need, do I need a sticker of some kind? And they looked at me the same way the dudes at the edge of the labyrinth looked at Theseus. And they were team Minotaur. They were like, it's fine.

• 3:44Chris Ryan?

  Good pull.

• 3:45Andy Greenwald?

  It'll work itself out. You know what I mean? Like they're like, either you'll come out or you won't, but we're not that worried about proprietary IP.

• 3:52Chris Ryan?

  Andy had a couple of things for you today. We're going to talk a little bit about Death by Lightning, which is a new series on Netflix.

• 3:56Andy Greenwald?

  Excited to talk about that.

• 3:58Chris Ryan?

  Starring Michael Shannon and Matthew Macfadyen. McFaden? How do you pronounce it?

• 4:03Andy Greenwald?

  You could throw in a little Y, I think to.

• 4:04Chris Ryan?

  I tried like just at the end for the slider, but I mask it.

• 4:09Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I, you know. First of all, you just looked like me trying to show off throwing a frisbee in 1995.

• 4:16Chris Ryan?

  This is the slider.

• 4:18Andy Greenwald?

  No, but also you could like, you ever throw a frisbee, buddy?

• 4:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, man.

• 4:22Andy Greenwald?

  You ever throw a frisbee enough to throw a frisbee with a dude with the Greenpeace backpack? Who's like whipping it forehand?

• 4:28Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 4:28Andy Greenwald?

  And then you're like, yeah, I can do that. And then you like decapitated a dog.

• 4:31Chris Ryan?

  Those guys nailed it.

• 4:34Andy Greenwald?

  They picked their moment. They went big. Okay, yeah, throw in McFadden. I don't want to derail.

• 4:39Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 4:40Andy Greenwald?

  But at the top of show, can I just say one thing? I don't know which is my.

• 4:45Chris Ryan?

  Is it about death by lightning?

• 4:46Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 4:47Chris Ryan?

  Oh, sure.

• 4:47Andy Greenwald?

  We're gonna talk about other TV shows. We're gonna talk about.

• 4:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, we're also gonna talk about I Love L.A. I want to ask you about Stranger Things. I want to ask you about Perivis. Yeah.

• 4:53Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 4:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:54Andy Greenwald?

  I can't wait. We're so cozy in the studio.

• 4:56Chris Ryan?

  But first.

• 4:58Andy Greenwald?

  I just want to check in. I did just mention Kaya and Kaya is gonna be going through this back in L.A.

• 5:02Chris Ryan?

  Oh, because she threw a hospital ball on your Courage Bagels clip?

• 5:05Andy Greenwald?

  And our guy Kai, who's been doing video clips. And I just want to look in the camera and say, what would you like from London? What can I bring you? Perhaps a scented candle from Liberty, something from Selfridges? Because in the comfort and safety of this room, I am my most genuine self.

• 5:22Chris Ryan?

  You know exactly what you're doing when you're doing it.

• 5:25Andy Greenwald?

  I do not.

• 5:26Chris Ryan?

  Give me a break.

• 5:27Andy Greenwald?

  I do not.

• 5:27Chris Ryan?

  You know that when you are teeing off on beloved, popular, small businesses within the Los Angeles East Side community.

• 5:36Andy Greenwald?

  Small businesses? I feel very comfortable.

• 5:40Chris Ryan?

  I'm sorry Einstein's Bagels didn't get that spot, you know, okay? But Courage Bagels is doing what they can.

• 5:46Andy Greenwald?

  Wow.

• 5:48Andy Greenwald?

  From the Chamber of Secrets to the Chamber of Commerce, I am across it all. I just want to say that like historically, I'm just not built for these times because you and I.

• 5:58Chris Ryan?

  For context, Andy made some disparaging remarks.

• 6:01Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 6:01Chris Ryan?

  Andy ranked Courage Bagels low in his power rankings of L.A. Bagel spots.

• 6:07Andy Greenwald?

  This is so niche, but yes. My point is, the bigger picture is. I feel exposed. It's tough to, it's tough to say things.

• 6:16Chris Ryan?

  Is that why you're sitting so low in the seat over there?

• 6:18Andy Greenwald?

  Aren't you sitting so low in the seat?

• 6:19Chris Ryan?

  I feel like I'm taller than you in this one.

• 6:21Andy Greenwald?

  This is a very low bucket seat and also I am clearly feeling nervous and needing the womb-like support of this, whatever this is. I, I just feel like this is usually a safe space for me to, to deliver my most sincere takes and now those takes are getting melon balled out.

• 6:35Chris Ryan?

  Your naivety about this at this point is crazy. You absolutely are the take lord. You never only, you are never like, first of all, bagels is fine. You're like, I,

• 6:46Andy Greenwald?

  That's how I live my life.

• 6:47Chris Ryan?

  You love something or you hate something and Kaya being, and Kai being good producers, they focus on your hate. They, they, they focus on the dark side of the force.

• 6:56Andy Greenwald?

  No, no. Post the love. Let's get a, what happened, what's wrong with a 12,000 eyeball clip? You know what I mean? What's wrong with a nice clip being like, I love LA is pretty good. We also put that one out last week. I saw that. There was a clip where you were like, it's nice having a show like this. And I'm like, it's pretty nice.

• 7:17Chris Ryan?

  Well, if you were watching us, would you stop on that clip? Two schmucks being like, I like this show. It was pretty good. It was pretty funny. I don't get all the references, but it's okay.

• 7:26Andy Greenwald?

  Twenty somethings do drugs.

• 7:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:29Andy Greenwald?

  That's fine. All right. I just need to get offline and just live, just immune to the consequences of my actions.

• 7:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that can be a big project for you when you return to America, getting offline.

• 7:40Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I hear the government's working again, so I'm good. I can just visit some national parks.

• 7:44Chris Ryan?

  I was in the, the hotel lobby this morning and a guy was explaining, uh, he was American, but his mother was Norwegian and I felt like a lot of the Norway had gotten into him where he was very direct and, you know, sort of straightforward about the government shutdown in the States. And he was explaining it to the concierge or the front desk person at the hotel. And he was just really like, well, we'll see, we'll see when they actually get back to work. I don't know.

• 8:12Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, so he's results oriented?

• 8:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 8:14Andy Greenwald?

  Well, Congress has been killing it.

• 8:16Chris Ryan?

  When it comes to air traffic control, I am results oriented as well.

• 8:19Andy Greenwald?

  Especially since we are both about to experience the glories of the internet.

• 8:21Chris Ryan?

  It's an AB kind of thing.

• 8:23Andy Greenwald?

  That's fair.

• 8:24Chris Ryan?

  Grimal, I wanted to ask you a little bit about Stranger Things. I think I've done some temp checks with you recently. These are sort of pointless because I know you haven't really watched much past season two, right?

• 8:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I feel, I apologize. I know it is the biggest thing.

• 8:35Chris Ryan?

  I don't think you have to apologize because one thing that, uh, we don't, I don't think we actually talked about the trailer, which came out a couple of weeks ago. It's quite long.

• 8:42Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't even watch it.

• 8:43Chris Ryan?

  Um, and it is a really interesting indication of how much this show has changed over its just astonishingly long, uh, run, even if not that many seasons compared to the amount of time it's been on the air. It's been 10 years, I think. Yes, exactly, because the first season was a sensation as The Ringer really started to publish. And that was one of the first things that we kind of seized on as

• 9:09Andy Greenwald?

  I remember that, yeah.

• 9:10Chris Ryan?

  Um, as like a kind of pop cultural artifact from that era. Um, so the trailer comes out and the trailer looks way more James Cameron than, um, Amblin, Richard Donner, Goonies.

• 9:24Andy Greenwald?

  Wow, that's

• 9:24Chris Ryan?

  Fun 80s kind of kids hanging out.

• 9:27Andy Greenwald?

  Now we're adult 80s.

• 9:28Chris Ryan?

  Yes, and it has way more, uh, T2 Terminator vibes than anything like The Explorers or Goonies or Stand By Me or whatever. And that's cool. Like, I think most shows go through some sort of transformation. I was just mentioning to Sean just how remarkable the Breaking Bad arc is when you actually go back and watch some early episodes of the show.

• 9:51Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, in terms of how the tent, the tone changed?

• 9:53Chris Ryan?

  Tone and just, you know, when you imagine, if I had shown you the first episode of Breaking Bad and then I showed you the final season trailer, uh, with Ozymandias

• 10:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 10:03Chris Ryan?

  poem reading.

• 10:04Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 10:05Chris Ryan?

  You would be like, that's not the same show.

• 10:07Andy Greenwald?

  And that's a beautiful testament to what TV can be.

• 10:10Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 10:10Andy Greenwald?

  A journey.

• 10:11Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I almost felt like, though, watching the spectacle around this last season of Stranger Things, which is going to be theatrically released in some cases. I believe the finale is going into theaters. Uh, is being released over the course of Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years.

• 10:28Andy Greenwald?

  In big

• 10:29Chris Ryan?

  In big chunks. Um, I'm very curious to see how that's received, especially if these are two-plus hour action movies.

• 10:38Andy Greenwald?

  Which they seem to be, according to the, the advanced word.

• 10:41Chris Ryan?

  And also whether this is like, kind of maybe going to be the last of its kind with TV shows. Um, it's hard to imagine.

• 10:50Chris Ryan?

  Another show lasting as long as this one, having this arc, seen people become stars over the course of its run. To the extent, I mean, Millie Bobby Brown, I suppose, would be the biggest example, but Finn Wolfhard's done really well for himself.

• 11:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and Maya Hawke's career as a scientist and Joe Keery.

• 11:07Chris Ryan?

  Despite Lily Allen's best efforts, she's still walking around.

• 11:11Andy Greenwald?

  You want to weigh in on that record?

• 11:12Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I haven't listened to it specifically, but I do think it's pretty amazing. Uh, just like the excerpts I've read from some of her observations.

• 11:19Andy Greenwald?

  Quite direct.

• 11:20Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Not a lot of nuance.

• 11:22Andy Greenwald?

  Unlike a lot of English people I've met, just comes back and says it.

• 11:25Chris Ryan?

  She does. Do you think we'll ever see another situation like this, though, or is this kind of a last TV show? Well, and maybe even the last gasp of blockbuster TV in a way.

• 11:38Andy Greenwald?

  It's interesting. It's an interesting question. I think that there's a couple of ways to approach it. And one is, I have to confess, I do feel, I do apologize to you and our listeners that I did not make good on my, I'm sure I promised at some point to catch up. The truth is, I did think that as my older daughter sort of aged into it, she might get into it and then I would have a way in.

• 11:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:58Andy Greenwald?

  She got close and then did a hard left at the Wednesday fork in the road. So I've been watching that and I've not, I've not done Stranger Things.

• 12:06Chris Ryan?

  That's a data point.

• 12:07Andy Greenwald?

  That's in my, in my defense, I guess, if anyone will accept it. I think one of the most remarkable things about The Stranger Things, well, there are two. One is that it is, despite its obvious influences, it is original IP. And it grew into blockbuster status, uh, and in a way earned this send off, that there was enough demand, there was enough interest to both have these giant sized episodes, but this giant marketing push, I mean, it's taken over even here in London, it's everywhere.

• 12:37Andy Greenwald?

  And the, the runtimes, et cetera, et cetera.

• 12:41Andy Greenwald?

  The other thing is, I'm sure Netflix, if you ask Netflix, like, for a do-over, they would not have wanted the show to take 10 years. But it is a really interesting snapshot of audiences growing up with something.

• 12:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 12:54Andy Greenwald?

  To your point, like, would the show have been able to make these tonal shifts if the children hadn't become like

• 13:00Chris Ryan?

  Adults.

• 13:00Andy Greenwald?

  Pushing thirty while making it.

• 13:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Finn Wolfhard's gonna play Paul Westerberg, you know, like.

• 13:05Andy Greenwald?

  I'm interested, but also just that the audience itself has grown into maybe a mature audience who can handle the bigger themes that they seem to be playing with. I think that's all pretty interesting. It is, it was never a cheap show, but it definitely fit an older paradigm of big genre pieces in that it started small and expanded and grew into something massive. You could say that's because the film, the Duffer Brothers, expanding ambitions, or ego, or actor salaries, or talent, or whatever. But that's the arc it took, which is not that dissimilar from Game of Thrones, which, as we love to point out, was mostly people in rooms until the dragons got big.

• 13:42Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 13:44Andy Greenwald?

  The precedent now for launching this stuff is a little bit inverted. It does feel like it has to start big and then stay big, which is really, really, really challenging. Challenging from a production standpoint, challenging from a network spend standpoint, and challenging from an audience standpoint, I think, as we're learning with the long delays in House of the Dragon and stuff like that. So it is weird to talk about something as unique and as uniquely fraught as Stranger Things as production has been and say, a classic example of TV doing what it does best, but if you squint, maybe?

• 14:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, or I think that this will go down as a time capsule piece from a very specific era of TV. Obviously, this was the first big breakout hit that Netflix had that was owned and operated by Netflix. Before that, they had been a buyer of shows and then aired them. This is the first significant like hit of their own. I believe they purchased House of Cards from someone else, too.

• 14:40Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, House of Cards was MRC, yeah. They were out, they announced themselves in the marketplace by outbidding for things and then partnering.

• 14:47Chris Ryan?

  And giving like full two season orders, you know.

• 14:50Andy Greenwald?

  That's how they, that's how Netflix, at least in terms of the anecdotes, that's how Netflix took House of Cards from HBO.

• 14:56Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 14:56Andy Greenwald?

  Guaranteeing two seasons.

• 14:58Chris Ryan?

  But then, you know, I was thinking about the other shows out there that have maybe been big hits since. I don't know, not even that Mad Men comparatively was as big of a hit as something like Stranger Things, but in that post prestige era where you get into like the peak TV and then maybe even like post peak TV, if you want to call it that, like you more often than not see something like Yellowstone, which even though it became a phenomenon and will have spin offs and, you know, made some careers, ended more with a fizzle than with a bang.

• 15:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 15:31Chris Ryan?

  Because of Costner, I don't think that they were able to go out the way they wanted to.

• 15:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 15:38Chris Ryan?

  Um, and because, possibly because Taylor Sheridan is working on 15 other things, lost sight of maybe what Yellowstone, and I don't know that Yellowstone was ever supposed to be a 70 hour television show.

• 15:48Andy Greenwald?

  That's the other risk you run in the more or less, and again, these Yellowstone and Stranger Things, it's a stretch to call them traditional, but the traditional way of deal making and starting something from a baby idea and letting it grow means you can't always control the outcome.

• 16:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:02Andy Greenwald?

  Best case scenario, the creators stick around, get to call their shot, land the plane, whether, you know, people like it or whether people agree with the ending or not, like tell the full story that they want it to tell. It is just as likely that you could lose audience, you could lose the plot, metaphorically speaking, um, you could just, your star could decide to make a two part, spent his own money making a two part western that, did the second part ever come out?

• 16:25Chris Ryan?

  No, but it is being released on digital, on a, on physical media.

• 16:29Andy Greenwald?

  On physical media?

• 16:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:30Andy Greenwald?

  Nice. So will the council convene? Will you, Tracy, Tim and Sean?

• 16:34Chris Ryan?

  Possibly a small subsection of the, a working group might convene.

• 16:37Andy Greenwald?

  Working group, right. Anyway, uh, you can't control it. So it's a, I, I guess the traditionalist in me is happy that they were able to end on their own terms. I mean, I, again, like, the reason that I'm here working in London is working on something, obviously that is a very huge, huge production. And the scale of it and the requirements of maintaining that scale are humbling.

• 17:00Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:00Andy Greenwald?

  Like genuinely, I am in awe and a little bit terrified of it. And it has to.

• 17:07Andy Greenwald?

  Begin at a level that is unprecedented.

• 17:09Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 17:10Andy Greenwald?

  And has to maintain that level, which, you know, and the only way you can do that in today's economy, or maybe honestly, in any responsible economy, is to do it with one of the two or three biggest IPs in the world. Otherwise, how could you get there?

• 17:23Chris Ryan?

  Where would you put Pluribus in that version of TV where you have to start big versus the version of TV?

• 17:29Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think that Pluribus is both exhilarating and relatively unique because it is a star-driven enterprise, but the star is the creator, the writer and creator. And that is very rare and incredibly dependable. You know, that was why Apple, I think, felt confident giving it a two-season order. Like generally, like if you get in a situation where it's a bidding war, and I do think Pluribus coming from Sony, which is Vince Gilligan's longtime studio home, it was a bidding war by all accounts. Like it went out to market.

• 18:02Andy Greenwald?

  Generally, a two-season guarantee comes from a place that has nothing to lose and everything to gain, like Netflix getting House of Cards. They didn't know if the show was even going to be good, but they needed it for their portfolio, and they would just see what happens. If it's a Vince Gilligan show, you can probably feel pretty confident that it's going to deserve a second season creatively.

• 18:19Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 18:20Andy Greenwald?

  That's pretty unique. Also, as we were just talking even before we got on the air, like among the other unique things about Pluribus, and we're not spoiling it, so no one needs to hit the skip button if you haven't watched it. I think you should watch it, but you should also not know anything about it if possible.

• 18:35Andy Greenwald?

  Outside of Ray Sehorn, there are no stars, at least no stars yet in the episodes we've seen. That's pretty unique. Like the nature of the business is really, it's not necessarily the same all the time as it was 10 years ago, where it was like, get me every actor who's never been in a TV show and let me pay them $2 million an episode, although I think, I think talking about the morning show is on your docket, so it might become relevant again. But it definitely is like, it definitely, the economy of the business definitely is from a streamer or network standpoint, let me fill every margin of this canvas with something reliable or known just to hedge my bets.

• 19:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 19:11Andy Greenwald?

  And that's not the case with Pluribus, and it's better for it.

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• 21:07Chris Ryan?

  Okay, so let's talk a little bit about Death by Lightning, the new series on Netflix. This one was released last week, I believe. Stars Michael Shannon, Matthew McFadden, and then just like an absolute list of hitters. Betty Gilpin, Shay Wiggum, Bradley Whitford. Really great to see him in this. I know that, I believe he's also in, is he in Diplomat as well?

• 21:30Andy Greenwald?

  He's in the Diplomat.

• 21:31Chris Ryan?

  So, yeah, great.

• 21:32Andy Greenwald?

  A lot of rave reviews for Diplomat.

• 21:33Chris Ryan?

  I know. You know what? Honestly, Diplomat is the one that I'm like, but I have to start at the beginning. And so I just kind of, I should, maybe I should just like bang out some Diplomat.

• 21:43Andy Greenwald?

  You got an 11 hour flight.

• 21:44Chris Ryan?

  I know. I was gonna say. And then Nick Offerman. This comes from a creator named Mike Mikowski, who people may have seen his HBO film with Hugh Jackman called Bad Education. He's written out a couple of features as well. But he is creating this, and I believe writing a lot of it, under the EP.

• 22:03Andy Greenwald?

  He wrote the whole thing.

• 22:04Chris Ryan?

  Shingle. Great. Good, because I love the first episode. So if he's writing the whole thing, like, I think it's.

• 22:08Andy Greenwald?

  And Matt Ross, who people might remember as an actor on Silicon Valley, who is also a director. He directed a great movie with Viggo Mortensen a few years ago. It's a name I'm absolutely blanking on, but I can call up.

• 22:19Andy Greenwald?

  And he directed Gaslit, I believe it was called, the Sam S. Mail Show. He directed all of it. So it is a four-episode, written and directed by all the same, same folks. Captain Fantastic was Matt Ross's movie.

• 22:30Chris Ryan?

  And this is based on the book Destiny of the Republic by Candace Millard, which I believe Littman, Juliette Littman would say is one of her favorite recent books.

• 22:37Andy Greenwald?

  Is it?

• 22:37Chris Ryan?

  Yes. She was very excited for this series. And I went in knowing about as much about this period, or this specific president, which is James A. Garfield. His fate, which is decided by Charles Guto, who is play, or Guito, played by McFadden. And kind of like, also about Chester A. Arthur and Ulysses S. Grant, like, I knew, I basically am like, right there in the Civil War. I got it pretty.

• 23:03Andy Greenwald?

  You're good.

• 23:04Chris Ryan?

  I'm pretty good. And then I go west. My interests go west.

• 23:08Andy Greenwald?

  That's right.

• 23:09Chris Ryan?

  1870s, 1880s, I'm much more interested in your lonesome doves, or what have you, than.

• 23:16Chris Ryan?

  I am in what was going on in Washington DC. And I just never got taught this era. So I almost went into death by lightning. About as blind as I went into Pluribus.

• 23:26Andy Greenwald?

  I feel the same way.

• 23:27Chris Ryan?

  And so I was just like, here's what happened when I turned on this first episode, written by McCauskey, directed by Ross, obviously. And it's set in the 1880s, largely in Chicago for this first episode, but around in and around the Midwest in that era.

• 23:41Andy Greenwald?

  And then to DC.

• 23:42Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And it's set during the Republican National Convention, which is supposed to be a layup renomination for Grant for his third term.

• 23:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 23:51Chris Ryan?

  Good for him. I hope that never happens again.

• 23:53Andy Greenwald?

  Relevant again.

• 23:54Chris Ryan?

  And, you know, there's just supposed to be a couple of sacrificial lambs who stand up and try to make some points, but they know that Grant's going to get his nomination. And he is being essentially managed by Shay Wiggums, New York Senator, who seems like a real character.

• 24:09Andy Greenwald?

  Roscoe Conkling.

• 24:10Chris Ryan?

  And he is kind of old party politics style, like, you know, everybody gets a job, but then they deliver their votes. Michael Shannon, playing James A. Garfield, stands up, gives a very stirring speech about how they're the party of Lincoln. They should be the party of the working man of the every fireplace in America matters. And the people lying in bed at night need to know that the people in in Washington care about them and have the same principles.

• 24:35Andy Greenwald?

  He talks about affordability, talks about his favorite halal carts in Queens.

• 24:38Chris Ryan?

  Buses are free, you know?

• 24:40Andy Greenwald?

  Pretty inspiring stuff.

• 24:41Chris Ryan?

  First, we got to invent the bus, then we're not going to charge for it.

• 24:46Andy Greenwald?

  The horseless bus.

• 24:48Chris Ryan?

  Wouldn't you know it, throughout an amazing series of events, and I gotta admit, one thing I do really love.

• 24:53Andy Greenwald?

  Say it.

• 24:53Chris Ryan?

  19th century conventions.

• 24:55Andy Greenwald?

  No, dude, go bigger. I fucking love conclaves.

• 24:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I actually love a conclave.

• 25:00Andy Greenwald?

  Didn't understand this about myself because frankly, we have not been given enough conclaves. And I will include the film Conclave, which I was mixed on, but the part of it I liked most, the titular conclave.

• 25:10Chris Ryan?

  So.

• 25:11Andy Greenwald?

  You get me a scene of a bunch of people in a room talking about who should win. And then you lock them in and it gets a little hot, gets a little tight in there. Nerves are frayed, backroom deals are happening. And one hero rises to meet the moment.

• 25:26Chris Ryan?

  And it's always that, why did he get one vote guy?

• 25:28Andy Greenwald?

  And yes, and you know what else? He doesn't want it. He doesn't want it, but heavy is the head.

• 25:33Chris Ryan?

  Yes, heavy is the head.

• 25:34Andy Greenwald?

  Destiny's calling.

• 25:35Chris Ryan?

  I think that every vote should count, for sure.

• 25:38Andy Greenwald?

  Great.

• 25:39Chris Ryan?

  But.

• 25:39Andy Greenwald?

  Here we go. This is how it starts.

• 25:41Chris Ryan?

  It's pretty fun to watch them decide, you know? It's pretty fun to watch like a group of 12 dudes decide. Another good example of this was the film Lincoln, where they have to get the votes for the amendment. Um, but there's a lot of backstabbing and lying and like, Strathairn's just absolutely, you know, and David Costabile are like, "You lied to us."

• 26:03Andy Greenwald?

  Can you imagine like, and that's how we ended up with Democratic nominee Dick Durbin? Cause a bunch of guys went in a room and were like, "Everybody likes Dick."

• 26:12Chris Ryan?

  Uh, nobody likes Dick. Um, all right, so this show, you start it, you start watching it, and here's what I felt.

• 26:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I want to talk about the opening specifically. Is that where you're going?

• 26:22Chris Ryan?

  As we got into arrivals in Chicago and deals being made, I felt myself have multiple generations of sons and become a grandfather who just sits around reading history books.

• 26:35Andy Greenwald?

  Oh yeah, well, first of all, we're closer to that than you may realize, sons aside. Like, I don't think, I was prepping a joke about how like, one day I'll become a guy that just has a thousand-page doorstopper book about Congress next to me, then I'm like, "The numbers are the numbers," you know what I mean? Like, I got about five more years of cool spy books before that just becomes my identity. We're getting there.

• 26:58Chris Ryan?

  Um, I just found this to be very fleet of foot.

• 27:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 27:02Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, not, despite the fact that it was obviously doing a lot of exposition and, and, you know, everybody is like, "Do you mean President Grant, the Civil War hero? One Piece and Appomattox?" Like, that's how they are introducing people?

• 27:19Andy Greenwald?

  Not mad at it.

• 27:20Chris Ryan?

  Dude, it moved. It had a great tempo and a great pace.

• 27:24Andy Greenwald?

  Let's talk about that. Let's talk about ways to make, let's just rap about history, kids. What's up? I got some TikToks to show you about, about reconstruction. I joke, but also, the, the show opens in a relatively surprising way that started to feel worrisome, which is, it starts with 1960s soul music playing.

• 27:45Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 27:45Andy Greenwald?

  And I was like, "Oh, okay."

• 27:48Andy Greenwald?

  Immediately, my brain leapt to, this is a post Steven Knight historical drama. And we talked about Steven Knight dramas. Yes, we talked about Steven Knight recently. He is one of the most prolific TV creators of our time. He is often brilliant and we often, very often, like his shows.

• 28:03Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 28:05Andy Greenwald?

  I-

• 28:05Chris Ryan?

  Rogue Heroes and Peaky Blinders, two of my favorite shows of recent memory.

• 28:09Andy Greenwald?

  I struggled with and did not really engage with House of Guinness for the reason I'm about to repeat, which is it's Fontaine's DC version of history, which everything is a anachronistic needle drop set punch-up with glossy images.

• 28:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and every aristocrat is also a bare-knuckle boxer who loves to do snuff.

• 28:37Andy Greenwald?

  I completely respect it. I have enjoyed it in doses and I see why that fits Netflix's strategy to make the history go down like cheeseburgers. But I didn't know if I wanted an American version of that necessarily. And what was very clever about the beginning is that it isn't that.

• 28:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 28:53Andy Greenwald?

  The music is actually period appropriate because the show begins in the 60s with some people moving a house, a building of records and presidential stuff.

• 29:00Chris Ryan?

  And it's our boy Ramen Jawadi from Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon doing the score.

• 29:04Andy Greenwald?

  Doing the score, which I didn't know about that. Let's circle back to that. They find a brain in a jar, as one does. I mean-

• 29:11Chris Ryan?

  And this is the 1960s scene.

• 29:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but it's a hallmark of, I mean, there's a lot of different genres that begin with people going in some sort of government archives and there's a brain in the jar. You know, I feel like they could get a little-

• 29:22Chris Ryan?

  Wait, are you pulling my leg?

• 29:24Andy Greenwald?

  No, I just feel like that would be the beginning of like an invasion movie or something.

• 29:27Chris Ryan?

  Okay, yeah, but there's not like a lot of shows that start that way.

• 29:30Andy Greenwald?

  Funny story, Chris. What in my time is TV critic-

• 29:33Chris Ryan?

  The original Friends pilot.

• 29:36Andy Greenwald?

  The first episode-

• 29:36Chris Ryan?

  Chandler Bing.

• 29:37Andy Greenwald?

  No, did you know that the first episode of The Seinfeld Chronicles did not have Julia Louis-Dreyfus, but it did have a brain in the jar?

• 29:43Chris Ryan?

  I did not know that.

• 29:44Andy Greenwald?

  Well, now you know. And then it transitioned, they go like, who the fuck is this? And then we go back into the past.

• 29:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:50Andy Greenwald?

  And what that communicated in a really fun way was that we were not going to be somber. We were not going to be like overly reverential about tone or history. We were going to be lively, but we are also not going to be glib, which I really, really appreciated. And then it just went into, as you said, something that just moves. It didn't feel the need to narratively explain itself, which I think was one of the reasons why I didn't stick with, I bet this is a theme for me, I guess.

• 30:17Chris Ryan?

  Not sticking with this?

• 30:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Was Manhunt the?

• 30:21Chris Ryan?

  Yes, I was gonna bring Manhunt up. Another thing, and who knows? I think the fact that this is a short series is very attractive. But I think with Manhunt, it was, I admired it and did not feel the need to finish it.

• 30:36Andy Greenwald?

  It, again, I would like to know more about the genesis of the show and maybe we could talk to people involved in it because Mike McCauskey, if you look at, he's a very young writer and creator, he's 34 years old. If, I would not have guessed his CV, you know, as the person who would make the show. So I don't know if he was passionate about the book or if it was a really, really successful marriage made in a general meeting where Benioff and Weiss and their company or Netflix had the rights to this and they were just taking meetings. It seems like someone who was really fleet of foot and not too reverential. And maybe the book's written in that spirit, I don't know. But immediately I was like, I'm really excited that these people are telling me this story. And it happens to be a story that I know literally nothing about.

• 31:19Chris Ryan?

  Well, and then you get into the performances because I think that is kind of like the dice roll for all of these shows. This also kind of fits into a Netflix tradition of what I would very lovingly call Wikipedia shows, which is, even for as much as I adore, almost every iteration of Narcos has a little bit of like, that there was Pablo Escobar, you know, like voiceover and, you know, it just makes sure you know, and that's the year that old Ronnie Reagan decided to declare war on drugs. Well, we had fun with that one.

• 31:50Andy Greenwald?

  I feel like you should do this for a lot of our recaps.

• 31:52Chris Ryan?

  Have Boyd Holbrook just narrate history or?

• 31:54Andy Greenwald?

  Like, like last week, when we were talking about I Love LA, you were like, you know, Rachel Sennett plays Maya, an up and coming manager who also sometimes does ketamine and cares about skincare.

• 32:04Chris Ryan?

  That there is the Silver Lake reservoir.

• 32:06Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I'm looking for.

• 32:07Chris Ryan?

  Guys like to walk around with water bottles.

• 32:08Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I'm saying. They called it Arowan, they sold a smoothie.

• 32:14Andy Greenwald?

  A $25 confection.

• 32:16Chris Ryan?

  That's like, now you're sounding like Woodrow from Lonesome Dove.

• 32:20Andy Greenwald?

  So?

• 32:21Chris Ryan?

  Because I'm just trying to stick to Boyd Holbrook.

• 32:24Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I'm messing with your imitation? A minute ago, you're like, I only read Lonesome Dove.

• 32:28Chris Ryan?

  That's not what I said. I just said that like, once we get after the Civil War, I go west like Horatio Alger. I don't stay over in the East Coast.

• 32:37Andy Greenwald?

  You're not a creature of the swamp town of Washington. I get it. That said, do you think Boyd Holbrook, in character as a 1980s DEA agent, sees the word smoothie for the first fucking time and nails it? You don't think it's possible that he garbles it?

• 32:52Chris Ryan?

  Wouldn't he just be like, it's much like an orange Julius?

• 32:55Andy Greenwald?

  That's exactly right. Sherbet in a cup for 30 American dollars. Designed by the wife of a pop star. Justin Bleber.

• 33:06Chris Ryan?

  Although this wife does do quite well in the makeup space and wellness.

• 33:11Andy Greenwald?

  I believe she's what's called an influencer.

• 33:13Chris Ryan?

  Pablo Escobar liked wellness of another kind. Nose wellness.

• 33:19Chris Ryan?

  Anyway, uh, death by lightning.

• 33:21Andy Greenwald?

  Say something controversial about a bagel store. Let's go mega viral.

• 33:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:27Chris Ryan?

  The cast of this show and what the cast is doing. One thing that's sometimes difficult with any show that you're going to start with two people on a collision course, but they're not going to have a ton of interaction, at least early on, is making sure, this was an issue I was always kind of curious with TASC. Uh, Ruffalo and Pelfrey kind of famously did not have very many scenes together and barely saw each other during production because they were shooting on different, you know, ends of, of, of the city or because they were shooting in different locales or whatever. And he, they were like, yeah, you know, it was kind of always wondering, you know, making sure that we're in the same show, making sure that we're doing tonally something that is in the same show.

• 34:06Andy Greenwald?

  And complimentary.

• 34:08Chris Ryan?

  And I think that this show so far. Is doing something wonderful with its two leads. McFadyne is incredible in this first episode.

• 34:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:16Chris Ryan?

  Playing someone who is essentially, looks like a small time hustler, who's been in and out of prison and in and out of scams and deals that fall through and is always looking for a get rich quick scheme. But in his mind is a man of ambition and is a man of big dreams and is looking for someone to recognize that in him and give him the opportunity. He's constantly going up to people and saying, "I have an opportunity to give you if you give me the opportunity to make some money."

• 34:41Andy Greenwald?

  And to be seen by you.

• 34:42Chris Ryan?

  Exactly. And he is essentially banging around Chicago, living with his sister, but is, I think before we-

• 34:51Andy Greenwald?

  He's released from prison at the beginning of this series.

• 34:53Chris Ryan?

  Before we had like a diagnosis for it, would probably be bipolar or something. You know, like obviously is just has episodes of darkness, episodes where there's a moment later in the first episode where he is chopping wood manically and nearly swings the axe at his sister, who is pretty much the only person in the world looking out for him.

• 35:13Andy Greenwald?

  Played by Paula Malcolmson, you might remember from-

• 35:15Chris Ryan?

  Of Deadwood, which is worth mentioning as an influence on this show because I think if you wanted to know the equation of this series, it would be basically Gilded Age by way of Deadwood. And I just thought that the energy that he was emitting was absolutely electric. And if Michael Shannon had been doing the same thing-

• 35:35Andy Greenwald?

  Like twitchy kind of energy.

• 35:36Chris Ryan?

  It would have been too much.

• 35:37Andy Greenwald?

  Totally.

• 35:37Chris Ryan?

  But Shannon is doing stock still, man of Lincoln, farmer, has a great family, cares about like the right kind of things.

• 35:46Andy Greenwald?

  Decent but unambitious.

• 35:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And it allows Shay Wiggum and Bradley Whitford to eat scenery. And Wiggum has this great scene in the first episode where he takes a piss and then he's like, takes off all of his rings before he washes his hands. And that's like, I think that was my favorite scene in the episode. It's like, he's just sort of like, "You should have stayed on that farm," you know? So, look, this is, to me honestly, a pretty easy recommend.

• 36:11Andy Greenwald?

  Very easy.

• 36:12Chris Ryan?

  Did you have any other thoughts on it before we go? Oh, I had one more I wanted to give you.

• 36:16Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I, I think the performances are just great.

• 36:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:19Andy Greenwald?

  I, I think it's just great to see, first of all, elite facial hair acting by everyone involved. Can't possibly do better.

• 36:29Andy Greenwald?

  It is a example of something that is just clearly elevated by the actors who are available to it, because when you cast Shay Wiggum, and as you said, it's, everyone is perfectly cast.

• 36:41Chris Ryan?

  It kind of reminds me of like, American Masterpiece Theater.

• 36:44Andy Greenwald?

  Everyone is perfectly cast, everyone is firmly in their bag.

• 36:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Andy Greenwald?

  But there is a directorial and producerial hand here, because I think you characterized it well, that like, you can only spin Shay Wiggum at that velocity if other people aren't spinning as fast.

• 37:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Andy Greenwald?

  You know, it's really artfully done that everyone is complimenting each other, depending on the gradation of their, of their, of their spin. I'd also say it is, you know, we have, when the names David Benioff and DB Weiss have come up on this podcast in the last years or so, it was a combination of optimism or incredulity about Three Body Problem, which was the, like, the fruit of their massive, massive post Game of Thrones to Netflix deal. We've also just kind of talked about the deal, and how challenging it is to get the Albert Pujols deal, after you've been an MVP elsewhere, and you rarely get return on investment to that degree. It is worth celebrating, then, that however it got there, this came into Netflix through

• 37:44Andy Greenwald?

  their deal, and has to be considered, I think, a win as part of that deal.

• 37:47Chris Ryan?

  I fist bumped both of those guys, because when you really think about it, the two things that they have done, and really, I, would you consider, what was the Sandra O'Shaughn, the chair?

• 37:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 37:58Chris Ryan?

  Oh, that's right. Would you consider that part of their deal?

• 38:00Andy Greenwald?

  Well, it's probably why it ended up at Netflix, yeah.

• 38:02Chris Ryan?

  I would say-

• 38:03Andy Greenwald?

  Good stuff.

• 38:04Chris Ryan?

  They have, they have done well, because I know people have, like, many people might think Three Body Problem fell short of their expectations, either as fans of the books, or is ridiculous, and I understand that, but I thought it was a big swing, and I liked a lot of it.

• 38:17Andy Greenwald?

  I liked it too, but the story of it is not as forgiving as we were about that first season, and I think generally, when you hire big talent off the back of something very successful, it's hit or miss, unless it's, you know, someone with a proven massive output, like a Ryan Murphy, or a, or a Shonda Rhimes. An example I was thinking of was, like, when the Glover brothers left FX at the end of Atlanta and went to Amazon, we got Mr. and Mrs. Smith from it, which I adored, but that was Glover dependent, because Donald was the star of it, and then, I believe, the only other thing we've gotten from that deal is Swarm, which was incredibly- Bold.

• 38:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:55Andy Greenwald?

  And kind of brilliantly executed show that was a very challenging watch made by Jenny Neighbors, their collaborator. And Amazon wasn't making that show without the deal. So kudos to the Glovers for lifting something up. But this is just feels, this is obviously a much more mainstream swing, but it is a, I think it's just a win.

• 39:11Chris Ryan?

  We'll have this same conversation if we're still doing this.

• 39:14Andy Greenwald?

  Doing a podcast?

• 39:15Chris Ryan?

  A couple of years about the Duffer Brothers at Paramount and about Taylor Sheridan at Universal.

• 39:19Andy Greenwald?

  Absolutely.

• 39:20Chris Ryan?

  I pledge to you to keep pottin' with you until we get the first Taylor Sheridan Peacock show.

• 39:25Andy Greenwald?

  That's beautiful.

• 39:26Chris Ryan?

  Will you still be here?

• 39:27Andy Greenwald?

  Was it in jeopardy?

• 39:28Chris Ryan?

  It's like in 28, though.

• 39:30Andy Greenwald?

  Will I still be here? Like, what sense? Like, I got a lot of history books to read starting around then, so I might really die with my retirement. Also, Kai is out here trying to get me just put on the IR. Like, I don't know if I'm gonna be free to give takes.

• 39:44Chris Ryan?

  Okay, so big watch recommend to this.

• 39:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I really liked it.

• 39:47Chris Ryan?

  I will just say, if I, to not glaze this thing the entire time.

• 39:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 39:51Chris Ryan?

  I could tell it was Budapest.

• 39:55Andy Greenwald?

  Because of the regressive politics off camera?

• 39:58Chris Ryan?

  Well, I think it did a wise job of, I enjoyed the convention hall shot, even if it's obviously like digitally replicating the first 50 guys into eternity there. And apparent, what?

• 40:13Andy Greenwald?

  Just replicating the first 50 guys into infinity. My time in the post-AI Hollywood trenches. Like, I just feel like this is a memoir.

• 40:22Chris Ryan?

  They've been doing that where it's just like, you know, the Battle of Troy. And it's like, hey, there's a million people here somehow. I don't think Wolfgang Peterson had that budget, but okay. I just would say there are a couple of scenes where I was just like, well, that, that's not really like a thing. It's not a real place. But I find that the diorama nature of it to be effective. And they're not doing too much like epic sweeping shot of a city that we made in a computer. It's like pretty medium shot, medium kind of.

• 40:51Andy Greenwald?

  And again, we don't, we're not in the edit bay. I don't know what's always what's of his effect and what's not. I'm sure we get some things wrong just watching this as we are on iPad, whatever.

• 40:59Chris Ryan?

  Maybe they really had a thousand extras in the convention hall, but they all stood exactly the same way.

• 41:02Andy Greenwald?

  And they all spoke Magyar. So it's a little challenging to get them to cheer at the right moments. No, that, but that was one of my issues with Manhunt, which was, it really felt. CGIE, it was filmed in Georgia, I think it filmed in Savannah.

• 41:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:18Andy Greenwald?

  There were some beautiful locations, but the old timeiness felt digitally added in a way that this show, I'm sure there are moments, but it was more tightly focused. And also because the writing is the way it is and the performances are the way they are, it's just making aesthetic choices in a more consistent way.

• 41:33Chris Ryan?

  I have to tell you something, you don't know shit about CGI until you watch this season of Morning Show.

• 41:38Andy Greenwald?

  Just in terms of actors being in the same room, or what?

• 41:41Chris Ryan?

  It's, I'll get to that.

• 41:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, yeah, okay.

• 41:44Chris Ryan?

  But there are also multiple scenes where it's like, a rooftop bar in New York City, and I'm like, this over, there's an overhead shot of Reese Witherspoon and Billy Crudup.

• 41:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 41:55Chris Ryan?

  Slow dancing on a rooftop bar in NYC to a jazz band.

• 41:59Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:59Chris Ryan?

  No, no noise coming from below, you know, on the streets.

• 42:03Andy Greenwald?

  No, that's because everything's free now.

• 42:04Chris Ryan?

  And then either they have chosen to shoot it in a way that makes it look like it's shot in the volume, or they shot it in the volume. Uh, it's one or the other, but I am also like, why? You know, like, also, why are they slow dancing on a rooftop hotel? I, it, it.

• 42:18Andy Greenwald?

  Is there a moment that they were like, they wanted to prove, like, holding up a, like, a newspaper in a hostage video, they wanted to prove they were in New York? So they had Amy Sedaris in the frame, but she's Amy Sedaris in her Mandalorian costume? Because they shot on the same volume in Manhattan Beach? Like, yea or nay?

• 42:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, um, there is also, I have to admit that one of the major draws to me for watching this series continually is analyzing scenes where major characters, hugely famous people, or moderately famous people, in the case of the example I'm about to give, are just simply, clearly not in the same.

• 42:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Chris Ryan?

  Set together.

• 42:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 42:56Chris Ryan?

  And I'm not saying that it's a Good Wife thing, where they're, they're beefing.

• 42:59Andy Greenwald?

  Which we, which was never confirmed, right?

• 43:01Chris Ryan?

  It's a scheduling thing, and I think that they are doing their best to be like, we can get Greta for these days in between Tron Aries reshoots, so we will have her do this stuff. But this is a scene where Billy Crudup is also in the scene, and they just can't do, they can't make it work, but they're gonna do it. There is a scene in an episode I watched recently, this is the fifth season, fourth season of the Morning Show, fifth season of the Morning?

• 43:24Andy Greenwald?

  You're gonna have to tell me that one, Doug.

• 43:26Chris Ryan?

  Four, I want to say.

• 43:29Andy Greenwald?

  No way to find out.

• 43:31Andy Greenwald?

  I'll find out while you talk, it's fine.

• 43:32Chris Ryan?

  You find out while I talk. Where Billy Crudup and, and something very crucial has happened in, in the UBN world.

• 43:39Andy Greenwald?

  Season four, dog.

• 43:40Chris Ryan?

  And they're walking past each other, two ships passing at night, and also up and down the corporate ladder, past each other. It's like walking and he's looking at her, but it's a single of him. And she's looking at him, but single of her. Single of him, single of her. And at the very last second, a woman with an amazing Greta Lee wig walks out of the frame, for two frames, walks out of the shot, past Billy Crudup. But I'm like, she wasn't there. I just want to know. I want somebody, please, if you worked on Morning Show, the watch at spotify.com, please tell me she wasn't there. And that I'm not spending all of my time being like, why is there only one shots of these people and not them together in a room together?

• 44:20Andy Greenwald?

  You know, we really should have one, like one day on the show as a guest would be a first AD. Because generally like-

• 44:28Chris Ryan?

  Oh, the anonymous first AD.

• 44:29Andy Greenwald?

  Just, just to be like-

• 44:31Chris Ryan?

  Voice, like voice distraction.

• 44:34Andy Greenwald?

  But not to like get dirt specifically about a show, although obviously we'll take dirt. What's the, what's the email address?

• 44:40Chris Ryan?

  The watch at spotify.com, yeah.

• 44:43Andy Greenwald?

  Because of scheduling. Like what a modern nightmare it is to schedule stuff. Now that everybody's working on lots of things. Now that everybody has positions that they're supposed to be delivering on and that because of the nature of TV shows, there are very few shows that have their cast under contract for multiple seasons in first position anywhere.

• 45:00Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And one of my favorite examples of this is Aaron Pierre is on this season.

• 45:06Andy Greenwald?

  Great.

• 45:06Chris Ryan?

  He plays Marion Cotillard, who is sort of the Sherry Redstone-esque figure running the network, or who owns the network, or family, the Dumont family.

• 45:15Andy Greenwald?

  We're like Cherie Redstone.

• 45:18Chris Ryan?

  Every once in a while.

• 45:20Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 45:20Chris Ryan?

  You look, you look, you look up from your Robert Caro book and you're like, more like Sherry, am I right?

• 45:26Andy Greenwald?

  Um, still got it.

• 45:27Chris Ryan?

  He plays her husband. He is a art dealer, like art world connector.

• 45:34Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 45:35Chris Ryan?

  Um, for rich guys who want to get into art.

• 45:36Andy Greenwald?

  Such a sick job.

• 45:37Chris Ryan?

  He is shot, his scenes are almost exclusively shot in a gorgeous loft somewhere where women routinely walk in and say, make me a drink. And his drink setup is like better than most bars. So like he starts just pulling out Campari and gin and like making Negronis, but has like all this fresh fruit to peel. And I'm like, how many women are coming by asking for Negronis that this, these, you know, these oranges wouldn't go bad?

• 46:01Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, oh, interesting question. You don't think the oranges are replaced regularly? Also, oranges are, you know, shelf, shelf stable for a while.

• 46:09Chris Ryan?

  Are they? I mean. I don't really have any oranges at my house.

• 46:12Andy Greenwald?

  You also have scurvy. Go on.

• 46:15Chris Ryan?

  Uh, there's also a major plot line in this season about, uh, Greta Lee's character developing an AI, um, to translate and to replicate like the personal images and voices of the newscasters so that people can watch the Olympics in any language and Bradley Jackson will still be their host or whatever.

• 46:35Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 46:35Chris Ryan?

  Um, but then that AI goes bad on her.

• 46:38Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, no, wait.

• 46:39Chris Ryan?

  Well, cause throughout the season, she's been like.

• 46:41Andy Greenwald?

  It went bad faster than those oranges.

• 46:42Chris Ryan?

  There's been all this like voiceover from, from Greta Lee's character Stella. And you're like, I don't know, this seems like an excessive amount of like random monologuing from her. And it turns out she's been talking to her AI all season. And then the AI is like the true reflection of her like insecurities.

• 46:58Andy Greenwald?

  Oh shit.

• 46:58Chris Ryan?

  And it's like a crazy racist AI. Not that racist, but a little bit.

• 47:03Andy Greenwald?

  Like racist enough to get elected to Congress.

• 47:05Chris Ryan?

  Falling asleep, but it was really crazy because she's giving this huge presentation where she's like, this AI is going to take us like, they, they have a problem at a presentation.

• 47:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 47:14Chris Ryan?

  And so she's like, I'll just debut the AI and she hits play and the AI just loses it immediately.

• 47:19Andy Greenwald?

  Could you describe that scene the way Boyd Holbrook would describe it?

• 47:24Chris Ryan?

  I can do you one better.

• 47:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 47:26Chris Ryan?

  One of the major characters of this season is a podcaster named Bro Hartman, played by Boyd Holbrook.

• 47:32Andy Greenwald?

  Stop it.

• 47:33Chris Ryan?

  It's like a Joe Rogan slash Morning Zoo guy who is speaking to the manosphere.

• 47:38Andy Greenwald?

  I never want to watch the show. I only want you to tell me about it.

• 47:41Chris Ryan?

  And he, at one point, is asked after, um, I can't remember who falls through, Chris, who's like one of the other newscasters, gets accused of using steroids during her Olympics.

• 47:53Chris Ryan?

  So Boyd Holbrook's character is gonna have to step in and like host the Olympics.

• 47:57Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. Okay, listen.

• 47:59Chris Ryan?

  And then he says, "I'll do it, but only if you let me host the presidential debate."

• 48:06Chris Ryan?

  And they're like, "Okay." And then...

• 48:09Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. Can I stop you for a second? Can you name the current news anchors for the major broadcast network? Because this show seems like it really puts a lot of pressure on...

• 48:18Chris Ryan?

  Uh, David Muir.

• 48:19Andy Greenwald?

  That's the, he's now the, the eminence Greece of newscasters.

• 48:23Chris Ryan?

  Nora O'Donnell.

• 48:24Andy Greenwald?

  Where's she?

• 48:25Chris Ryan?

  She's CBS, isn't she?

• 48:26Andy Greenwald?

  I think she, I think she left. Hold on. The problem is...

• 48:28Chris Ryan?

  She was just interviewing Trump like five weeks ago.

• 48:31Andy Greenwald?

  Listen, news travels fast.

• 48:33Chris Ryan?

  On 60 Minutes, but I thought she was the night, night person.

• 48:35Andy Greenwald?

  Here's, by the way, here's also what's kind of incredible. This is like when, we gotta get home. Because a few weeks ago, we were talking about Down Cemetery Road, and I have not kept, I've gotta watch the new episodes. We'll talk about it next week. Um, and we were like, "Man, that one actor, again, no way of knowing who he is, is really tall." And you were like, "How tall is he?" I was like, "I bet he's tall enough. Google, Google, Google." He's like 1.12 meters or whatever.

• 48:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Andy Greenwald?

  And we were like, "No way of knowing how tall that is." I was gonna do a bit just now where I was gonna quiz you on the newsreaders, but I have to tell you, we remain in England, so I have a list of...

• 49:06Chris Ryan?

  It's all BBC, ITV and Sky.

• 49:08Andy Greenwald?

  Fiona Bruce, Justin Webb, Ali Khan, and Stephen Dixon and Anne Diamond on GB News.

• 49:14Chris Ryan?

  Oh, well, all those guys are gonna be working for Trump tomorrow.

• 49:16Andy Greenwald?

  Nailed it. Anyway.

• 49:19Chris Ryan?

  Uh, just, so I just wanted to let you know that's where we're at. Also, in the meantime.

• 49:22Andy Greenwald?

  Tom Lamas.

• 49:23Chris Ryan?

  Bradley Jackson, who's played by Reese Witherspoon, who has been in like four scenes with other actors this season. Uh, is working with Mark Duplass's Chip Black character, who used to be a producer on the morning show, but is now a documentary filmmaker. And they're getting after a controversy where there was this whole Michael Clayton situation with a pharmaceutical or like agricultural company called Wolf River.

• 49:47Andy Greenwald?

  Nice.

• 49:47Chris Ryan?

  And people got poisoned. They're trying to get to the bottom of that. And it might go all the way to the top.

• 49:51Andy Greenwald?

  So.

• 49:52Chris Ryan?

  Just wanted to let you know what was going on on the morning show.

• 49:53Andy Greenwald?

  A week or two ago, you were like, I gotta tell you, I don't remember if this was on mic or just as we were walking into the studio, you were like, morning show might actually be good this year. And I was like, cool, I'll check it out. Do you stand by that? Or is it just more like, wow, morning show exists this year?

• 50:08Chris Ryan?

  It's entertaining.

• 50:09Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 50:09Chris Ryan?

  I am entertained. Your entertainment is hearing about it. Do you have any notes on I Love LA or Chair Company before we get out of here?

• 50:14Andy Greenwald?

  Just to say that, um, we touched on it last week, um, second episode of I Love LA. I think we'd both watched it in advance. I really liked the second episode.

• 50:21Chris Ryan?

  That was very funny.

• 50:22Andy Greenwald?

  I really, I thought it was very funny. The second episode did have that moment that gave me my one note last week, which was the end where they are being like held coke hostage by the evil influencer.

• 50:37Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 50:37Andy Greenwald?

  And Maya pretends to go crazy to chase her out, but then she comes back and sees that she's been made fun of and excluded and then goes live on whatever the fuck to like talk shit about, uh, Tallulah.

• 50:49Chris Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:50Andy Greenwald?

  I, my eyes glazed over at that point.

• 50:53Chris Ryan?

  Oh, because of influencer drama?

• 50:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, mainly because, and I could be wrong about this, and I also just could generally be wrong about the arc of the season. But it did feel to me like the kind of thing that is suggested or noted or even like dreamed up in a writer's room when everyone's like, you're in series, you've done the pilot, you're in series, and it's just like, well, how are we going to get some stakes here? How are we going to really like have the rubber hit the road and get some momentum here? So that the network understands that this is a show.

• 51:17Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 51:17Andy Greenwald?

  Not a hangout. I actually think it's a positive that it didn't need it. Now, maybe it's gonna fuel all this.

• 51:23Chris Ryan?

  You almost would prefer like a more episodic, like the crazy adventures of these two women in LA rather than like a long running influencer beef that needs to get worked out over the course of some episodes.

• 51:32Andy Greenwald?

  I just, this is my, this might also be my Robert Caro in my Eames chair era talking, but I. I find that uninteresting and uncompelling as like stakes. I don't actually care about that. I would have been fine with the episode if it ended with them just hanging. But I'm curious about what the balancing act is going to be going forward. And often a first season is figuring that out in real time.

• 51:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I loved the Roger and Munchy bit. That was really funny.

• 51:58Andy Greenwald?

  The show's really funny. I can't wait to watch the next episode.

• 52:00Chris Ryan?

  Jordan Firstman and I O being in scenes together was great.

• 52:04Andy Greenwald?

  They're great.

• 52:05Chris Ryan?

  What is going on with Chair Company?

• 52:07Andy Greenwald?

  I can't do Chair Company justice the way that you just did.

• 52:11Chris Ryan?

  Do it like Boito.

• 52:12Andy Greenwald?

  Morning Show, I can't. It's just that what occurred at the end of this week's episode, which basically involves tracking down a little person actor who makes his living playing Scrooge in prisons and also posing for headshots for like bar memory games. They track him down at a bar where Ron warns a guy with a long braided ponytail and a massive dent in his head from some sort of metal plate surgery, that he's about to accidentally dip his white sleeve in some cheddar soup. And then the guy gets really mad at him for doing that.

• 52:56Andy Greenwald?

  And then the little guy's like, you shouldn't have pissed him off. This is a Coke bar. And then everyone in the bar is on cocaine. And then the little guy says, I'll show you what I have on the Chair Company, but I have to go do some cocaine first. And then he robs the cocaine. And then they run away from a mass of people, including the guy who has now been staring at Ron dipping his elbow in the cheese soup, saying, is this what you were afraid of? Is this what you were afraid of? And Ron hits him in the dent to escape. And then like Night of the Walking Dead, they all follow Ron and the little person and Mike to the little guy's house, where there's also a squatter in one room and old woman who's yelling.

• 53:35Chris Ryan?

  Wait, not the woman, not the mother they threw popcorn at a couple of weeks ago?

• 53:39Andy Greenwald?

  No, this is just that he opens another door and there's just an old woman in there going, "No, I'm not leaving." And Ron gets an iPad to the neck and head. And also, there's a very, very large man with a very unique torso having an affair in the basement. When Ron walks in on them, says, "The only way we're getting out of this is that if you have an affair with her too, and I film it."

• 53:59Chris Ryan?

  Did he say an affair?

• 54:01Andy Greenwald?

  I think so. Or, "You cheat too." He's like, "I'm a married man." He goes, "You cheat too." "I can't, I can't do it justice. I can't bring Boyd into this."

• 54:10Chris Ryan?

  For 10 seconds, I was like, "This is kind of why I fell off Chair Company, but now I'm back in."

• 54:15Andy Greenwald?

  It is so unique, and I have not even, and I won't, for our beautiful listeners who need to see this themselves, it ends with something that I can't describe. And frankly, I've never seen on television before. It is a very, very, very special show that we may never see again. Honestly, because like, the whole network might get shut down after this episode. God bless it.

• 54:38Chris Ryan?

  That was a great description.

• 54:39Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 54:40Chris Ryan?

  When you run out of words to say, it's time to end the podcast episode.

• 54:43Andy Greenwald?

  That's probably right.

• 54:44Chris Ryan?

  Thank you to Kaia and Kai. Thank you for you guys putting Andy in the ER again and again. Thanks to Larissa for setting us up today here in London. We'll be back in Los Angeles next week. And I think what we've decided is no, no second episode this week.

• 54:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, we're, we're stretched a little thin, but we'll do.

• 55:00Chris Ryan?

  Young Go Hards, Monday and Thursday next week.

• 55:02Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's really smart, because our circadian rhythms are going to be so sick next week.

• 55:06Chris Ryan?

  I'm not worried about, about the other way around.

• 55:09Andy Greenwald?

  I am.

• 55:09Chris Ryan?

  I do well that way.

• 55:10Andy Greenwald?

  Like, just for the record, I've been away for six weeks.

• 55:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 55:15Andy Greenwald?

  And I immediately have to take my children to a school play that goes until 9:00 PM.

• 55:19Chris Ryan?

  Like Friday or, or?

• 55:21Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, Saturday.

• 55:22Chris Ryan?

  Saturday.

• 55:22Andy Greenwald?

  So, I think it's going to be interesting. I would just like to pre-apologize to the cast of this youth production if there is just a man snoring.

• 55:31Chris Ryan?

  You think they're listening? Do you recap little people doing cocaine?

• 55:35Andy Greenwald?

  Kai, clip this. I'm so sorry to the cast of Agatha Christie's, I don't know what it is.

• 55:40Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 55:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I'll do my best.

• 55:41Chris Ryan?

  Uh, thank you for listening to The Watch. We'll be back next week.

• 55:43Andy Greenwald?

  God save the king.

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