‘Task’ Episode 4 With Mark Ruffalo, Tom Pelphrey, Brad Ingelsby, and Salli Richardson-Whitfield! Plus, ‘One Battle After Another’ Is Timely and Timeless.

Chris and Andy talk about seeing Paul Thomas Anderson’s ‘One Battle After Another’ and the surprisingly prophetic nature of its story (3:25). Then, they break down the fourth episode of ‘Task’ (17:39), before they’re joined by stars Mark Ruffalo and Tom Pelphrey, creator Brad Ingelsby, and director Salli Richardson-Whitfield for a live event at Vidiots to discuss how they went about portraying Philly culture, the inevitable collision of Robbie's and Tom’s story lines, creating the visual palette for the show, and much more (45:25). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of ‘The Watch’ and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Mark Ruffalo, Tom Pelphrey, Brad Ingelsby, and Salli Richardson-Whitfield Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Video Producer: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 2:22Speaker 03

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• 2:31Speaker 04

  I need sports to have to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 2:36Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio, don't mind me, dark hearts, just putting a little Linda Thompson on here at the bar, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 2:52Andy Greenwald?

  Did you take that as proof that you would do well at Lefty's, that they were playing, you know, shoot out the lights or whatever?

• 2:58Chris Ryan?

  Well, I do think that we have a situation on Task, which we're going to be talking about today on The Watch, where the musical supervision is perhaps outpacing the taste of the characters. But we, we'll get to that. We're going to get to a lot of things about Task. Andy, last night, you and I had the pleasure of hosting a panel talk at Vidiot's, featuring Mark Ruffalo, Tom Pelphrey, Brad Ingelsby, and last night's episode's director, Sally Richardson Whitfield. And we're going to play that in the second half of this episode. So you have some Task talk coming from the people who made it. And then we're also just going to break down the episode a little bit here. And if there's any headlines you want to talk about, tariffs, you know, Apple withholding The Servant, whatever hot button issues you want to address.

• 3:43Andy Greenwald?

  Is it The Servant or The Savant?

• 3:44Chris Ryan?

  Oh, it's The Savant. They have another show called The Servant.

• 3:47Andy Greenwald?

  They've got many shows. They also have two other Jessica Chastain shows, like In The Hopper.

• 3:51Chris Ryan?

  Do they really?

• 3:51Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, they've been greenlit. There's like an Art World one. There's a, she stays working for them. So she's like, I didn't, we weren't aligned on this one, but.

• 3:58Chris Ryan?

  How are you late night rock and roll Sunday night for us?

• 4:01Andy Greenwald?

  Listen, it was great. We had a really good time. Kaya, Kai, the whole team, they showed up. They showed out. Someone said from HBO was like, "You guys have a great team." And I said, "Chris has a great team." I'm just part of that team.

• 4:15Chris Ryan?

  You're part of my team.

• 4:16Andy Greenwald?

  I'm the long snapper.

• 4:17Chris Ryan?

  Exactly.

• 4:17Andy Greenwald?

  You know, you elevated me for game day.

• 4:21Andy Greenwald?

  That was, that was really fun. Everybody kind of schlepped out to my neighborhood.

• 4:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:25Andy Greenwald?

  It was, I would say, just a little extra color for everyone's gonna get to listen to it. I thought we had a good talk with those guys. It was really, really nice to spend time with a creative team who so clearly enjoyed their working experience.

• 4:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:42Andy Greenwald?

  You, you can fake that stuff and you certainly often do fake it, you know, in promotional tours. But behind the scenes and then definitely when we were doing the talk, like, these guys really respected the hell out of each other in a way that was really, it was kind of contagious. Also contagious, Tom Pelfer.

• 5:01Andy Greenwald?

  So him being on the other end of the road.

• 5:03Chris Ryan?

  He said he had a cold.

• 5:04Andy Greenwald?

  He was respectful. He was giving us elbow bumps.

• 5:07Chris Ryan?

  He was, but he also loves Jose Canseco, you know, so he was just doing Bash Brothers with us.

• 5:10Andy Greenwald?

  That's right.

• 5:11Chris Ryan?

  I saw him and Ruffalo had a very charming moment where they were talking about their shared love for Jeff Buckley.

• 5:17Andy Greenwald?

  Were they?

• 5:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, because the Buckley documentary is coming out. Or is out and that Ruffalo had just seen it and they were like, "Oh, I love that album."

• 5:24Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think that's a spoiler for episode five of Task? Where like the rest of J and W trash haulers show up at the quarry and they break out a little like,

• 5:32Chris Ryan?

  Last goodbye.

• 5:33Andy Greenwald?

  Like a little blue So No's Bluetooth thing and just crank Buckley?

• 5:37Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 5:38Andy Greenwald?

  Classic Monco.

• 5:40Chris Ryan?

  Oh, God.

• 5:42Chris Ryan?

  We can just get right into this episode of Task if you want to.

• 5:45Andy Greenwald?

  Well, how do you want to do it? Because we also both went to the movies. We also saw one battle after another, which we should probably talk about. So do we want to do a little task talk, battle talk, back to task? Or should we just?

• 5:55Chris Ryan?

  Let's do battle now. I just want to hear about your experience. You went and saw it, so like, we are lucky enough in Los Angeles to have this incredible collection of movie theaters, especially large format movie theaters. So I got to see it at IMAX in CityWalk last weekend and then talked extensively about it on The Big Picture. You're also going on The Big Picture, so perhaps we'll share some thoughts there.

• 6:13Andy Greenwald?

  Though I have no idea, I could be going on to get pranked. Like, I don't actually know why I'm going on.

• 6:17Chris Ryan?

  They don't do that there. They keep it real tight. I'm surprised you haven't received a full rundown from Sean.

• 6:23Andy Greenwald?

  I have received nothing. Only Jack was like, "You still want to do this?" And maybe he was like, "This feels a little..."

• 6:28Chris Ryan?

  Can I give you a tip? When you walk in there?

• 6:30Andy Greenwald?

  Please.

• 6:30Chris Ryan?

  Don't tease Sean about the Mets.

• 6:33Andy Greenwald?

  Listen, have you?

• 6:34Chris Ryan?

  No. No, you do that.

• 6:36Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 6:37Chris Ryan?

  You always text me and you're like, should I text Bill and be like, ha ha, the Celtics?

• 6:41Andy Greenwald?

  First of all, that was unnecessary. He just aired me out.

• 6:47Chris Ryan?

  He does the same to us.

• 6:48Andy Greenwald?

  It's not just he does the same to us. I've received two texts from Bill Simmons in the last six months. Both of them have been on group chains.

• 6:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:55Andy Greenwald?

  Where he's like, look at your stupid team.

• 6:57Chris Ryan?

  And then there's like nine dudes whose phone numbers you don't have saved.

• 7:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 7:00Chris Ryan?

  And it's like, Andy, eat shit.

• 7:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, so that's cool. Second, there was no point during the last few weeks of the Mets' truly epic $300 million collapse that I actually texted him or any of the other Mets fans in my life.

• 7:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:15Andy Greenwald?

  That's too dark.

• 7:16Chris Ryan?

  I know. I know. I went up to Jack yesterday, Jack Sanders, who produces The Big Picture and is also a big Mets fan. And I offered my condolences.

• 7:22Andy Greenwald?

  How was it received?

• 7:24Chris Ryan?

  I thought, level headedly, I will not be bringing it up with Sean.

• 7:28Andy Greenwald?

  Did you bring up that Trey Turner won the batting crown with a 304 batting average?

• 7:33Chris Ryan?

  This is why.

• 7:34Andy Greenwald?

  It's a real dead ball era shit.

• 7:35Chris Ryan?

  What happened to the game I love?

• 7:36Andy Greenwald?

  It's so nuts.

• 7:37Chris Ryan?

  We used to hit singles in this country.

• 7:39Andy Greenwald?

  We used to hit.

• 7:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Andy Greenwald?

  So no, I'm not prepared for that. But you were talking about formats and I was very excited to see one battle after another in the format in which it was filmed. Something that I learned about six weeks ago called Vista Vision. And I got to see it at the Vista Theater, which I also did not know is one of the four theaters in America showing the movie in this format. So I had a great experience. We'll talk about the movie. Maybe this will come up on Big Pick, but that's the church of cinema and this is, you know, we're just sort of partying outside here so I could talk about it. The level of seriousness with which some people do approach the format stuff is beyond me. When we were entering, we had, there was a huge line because the Vista is not like assigned seats.

• 8:24Andy Greenwald?

  So it was enthusiastic, people ready to support movies. But there was someone in front, at the front of the line, handing out little like stamp cards for one format after another. And I was like, sir, you grossly overestimate my ability, A, to see movies and B, my, how liquid I am?

• 8:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:41Andy Greenwald?

  That's crazy. I did see the movie.

• 8:43Chris Ryan?

  And also probably your passion for formats.

• 8:45Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's exactly right.

• 8:46Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 8:46Andy Greenwald?

  The other thing that I learned-

• 8:47Chris Ryan?

  As the world's most foremost Christopher Nolan on the backseat of a plane watcher.

• 8:52Andy Greenwald?

  Whatever, you know? I want the movies to meet me where I am.

• 8:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:55Andy Greenwald?

  And that's 30,000 feet over the mid-Atlantic.

• 9:00Andy Greenwald?

  I also learned, and again, maybe you knew this, that Vista Vision is in fact not a large Vista, that it is a more compact-

• 9:09Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 9:09Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, ratio.

• 9:10Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 9:11Andy Greenwald?

  So when you're in the last row, because you only showed up an hour before the movie, maybe you have a different experience with it.

• 9:16Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I, I think that that actually is sort of contributing to, uh, like this interesting stratification that I feel like is happening around certain releases, which is, I, look, I, I'm a fucking movie nerd and I, I love going to movie theaters here in Los Angeles and seeing things in unique ways. But, you know, I do want as many people to feel like they are getting the movie that Paul Thomas Anderson made-

• 9:42Andy Greenwald?

  Totally.

• 9:43Chris Ryan?

  -as possible. I think that one thing that you see is, is this like booming cinephile culture that obviously is thriving on Net, on Letterboxd and is like really, really inspiring in some ways, but, uh, it's, it's not even a concern troll. I just want like, I want people in Marlton, New Jersey to also go see this movie and even if it's just at your AMC, like on a normal projection.

• 10:07Andy Greenwald?

  You're still seeing it in the movie theater.

• 10:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:08Andy Greenwald?

  I completely agree with that. Um, don't, let's not overcomplicate this.

• 10:12Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 10:13Andy Greenwald?

  But it was really exciting and it was very exciting to see it in a full theater.

• 10:17Chris Ryan?

  You went into it, uh, similarly to the way I did, which was with the weight of expectations.

• 10:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 10:23Chris Ryan?

  Um, where it's just, you know, th- these are pretty uniformly, not just good reviews, like once in a career reviews for, for even PTA movies. Do you feel like that affected the way you watched it?

• 10:39Andy Greenwald?

  Possibly, possibly, because I think what that, when you just get the ambient, and I should say, like, I loved it. I can't wait to, and I genuinely, format agnostic, I need to see it again. But I do think that that elevating, ambient elevation, that this is somehow like not just a PTA movie, that this is a generational masterpiece. It's impossible for that not to seep in. And so then, when the movie does the things that I think I will grow to love even more in the second and third viewing, which is the super PTA, it's kind of like digressions or tone shifts. I was almost taken aback by them as opposed to going along the journey with them. Because there are moments, especially early in the movie, where it's so,

• 11:22Andy Greenwald?

  actually throughout the movie, I'll just say it, like, one of the most electric aspects of seeing this movie is the vibe you only get when an artist is both truth telling and telepathic. That like, he has been working on some sort of spiritual adaptation of The Pinch and Noval Vinland, right? For over a decade, I think, on The Big Pick, I think he said 20 years he's been sort of kicking it around. He filmed this a year and a half ago, more. He did not know what it would feel like to be in America in 2025, but he absorbed it, or precog, what's the Minority Report thing? Yeah. To feel art that is absolutely in sync with the moment in which it is released is such a rare thing.

• 12:07Andy Greenwald?

  And it is, it was exhilarating and at times like almost oppressive in its immediacy. Yeah. And I, and I love that. And I think that that also might be why there were certain moments when, again, he does his very PTA things, which is why I love him in the first place, where it becomes, it steps backward almost into silliness, or repeats certain beats, or lingers a little bit too long, or is dismissive of something that another filmmaker would turn into an entire meal. Like the shootout at the, at the, at like the gas station near the end. That you've, I found myself like almost yearning to grab the wheel, and that's not something you do in a PTA movie. So the fact that there's so much left on the bone for me to like get to,

• 12:49Andy Greenwald?

  once I've gotten those first viewing jitters out, makes me really, really excited, but also makes me feel almost like talking about it as an incomplete. My like my reactions.

• 12:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I don't want to get into spoiler territory because obviously like I hope that a lot more people see the movie and we just like don't need to go through beat by beat.

• 13:08Chris Ryan?

  I did your point about it being timely. I also thought it was timeless. You know, I was spending some time driving this weekend and I was trying to sort of like map out the timeline of the movie because there's a time jump in it and you know, some of it takes place 15 years prior to like the main action of the film, I think. But I was also like, so that would make that this year, that year, and then this goes up to like our current moment. And I was just like, why am I trying to?

• 13:36Andy Greenwald?

  Solve it.

• 13:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Why am I doing like the the Wayland Yutani chronology for a BTA movie that is largely a work of adaptation and imagination? But I just, I feel like I'm really grateful about it and like I can't wait. And it's also kind of seeped into my consciousness in a way that really you you only get like once or twice a year where like I've listened to the Johnny Greenwood score a bunch of times, listened to playlists people have made of the soundtrack.

• 14:04Andy Greenwald?

  Johnny blacked out on this.

• 14:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. And I started like even like listening to music like the music that's in it. You know, I want to, I want to dive into Vineland again, which I I read, but I think read too young, maybe.

• 14:22Andy Greenwald?

  My copy of Vineland spent a lot of quality time with me in London in the first part of the year.

• 14:25Chris Ryan?

  Two pages in.

• 14:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but he sat in the window. I think he had a nice view, you know, the neighborhood.

• 14:31Chris Ryan?

  You know, it's funny. I was, I I've been reading mostly novels this year and you and I both have been on this Oliver Harris kick, who's a British spy novelist that we've really into.

• 14:42Chris Ryan?

  So because I was reading these spy novels, I decided to read a book called The Ghost, which is a biography of James Angleton, who is a very famous infamous US spy.

• 14:53Andy Greenwald?

  And he's He's the one who basically ran an endless mole hunt.

• 14:58Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 14:58Andy Greenwald?

  He's the most paranoid man in the history of intelligence.

• 15:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, is is honestly like the character in the bureau who

• 15:06Andy Greenwald?

  J J A.

• 15:07Chris Ryan?

  J J A is named after him.

• 15:11Chris Ryan?

  It's really funny to go to nonfiction after reading almost exclusively fiction and just how matter of fact dudes will just be like, and he was a fascist.

• 15:21Chris Ryan?

  I'm like, alright.

• 15:22Andy Greenwald?

  Well, if you say so. I mean, but that's actually a really interesting way to consider one battle after another also, which is, and I, and I wonder if people like casuals who are seeing it, if casuals are seeing it, if it does get what I think everyone in the industry outside of the industry is hoping. It's, it's funny to note, just as a side note, that like, it used to be that like on opening weekends, Rival Studios would be like on deep background to Paul Derger, Dergerabadian or whatever, and being like, that's a shit opening. Like, this movie's doomed. And now everyone in town is like, give it time, it's got legs, we need this to succeed.

• 15:56Chris Ryan?

  Although, we have seen over the course of the summer with Sinners and Weapons, that there's, you know, usually you get a Marvel movie and then it's like 63% drop off the next weekend now that the geeks have seen it. And this is like, I think people are hoping that word of mouth spreads.

• 16:09Andy Greenwald?

  Although, judging by me and my colleagues at the Vista, the geeks have also seen this early. But, um, anyway, I was just gonna say that, um, this movie is fiction in a very, very, like, intentional way. Like, the, the names are very pinchiness, you know, the ones that he made up, and, and the extravagances of it, and the imagination of it. And it's fiction in a way that I find incredibly engaging and thrilling and exciting, but isn't really the way a lot of mainstream art is intended, or crafted, or received these days, right? There's a lot of, there's a lot of like, well, it wouldn't really happen that way. Or like, let's solve for this, right?

• 16:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:50Andy Greenwald?

  And I think that this movie is so aggressively fiction in a wonderful way, that some people might not be used to that. I think that's good for the world to have something like that out in it. And, just, just a couple other bullet points. Where would you, where would you rank this Leo performance in your personal pantheon? I don't, you don't need to, I'm not gonna hold you to it, I'm just putting you on the spot here. I was talking to my daughters about this on the way, they were asking me what I thought about the movie.

• 17:13Chris Ryan?

  Your daughters, big Shutter Island heads.

• 17:15Andy Greenwald?

  My daughters are, like, these posters, for them, are like, I'm trying to think of an example of like, like, like Dorian Gray shit, like, they're so horrified that Leo is a 50-year-old man because they've seen Titanic.

• 17:28Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 17:29Andy Greenwald?

  And some of Romeo and Juliet, that like, this is an abomination to them. And I was like, get ready. Get ready for the rest of your lives, girls. But- They were, and they were, of course, they were like, well, Titanic is his best performance. And I was like, let me show you the Quaalude scene from Wolf of Wall Street.

• 17:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think for me, probably sentimentally and personally, the part it is my favorite Leo performance. Uh, Wolf, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

• 17:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 18:01Chris Ryan?

  Body of Lies.

• 18:02Andy Greenwald?

  I thought you were gonna say The Beach. I think, um.

• 18:04Chris Ryan?

  Not Body of Lies.

• 18:05Andy Greenwald?

  The post, I don't know what the first movie that kind of introduced this kind of like broadly goofy Leo into the world is, whether it's like, whether, whether it was, it's not, he's not goofy.

• 18:18Chris Ryan?

  Maybe?

• 18:19Andy Greenwald?

  He's not goofy in Django, but he is arch.

• 18:22Chris Ryan?

  Oh, God, that's actually, that's top three for me.

• 18:25Andy Greenwald?

  His performance in, in Wolf, his performance in Hollywood, and but especially this one, like, this is top three for me already. I think it's an astounding performance. I think it is so, so, so funny. I'm obsessed with the fact, and this is also something that I think would be rewarded in rewatches, that the hero of the movie, the nominal, the nominal hero of the movie, Bob, does nothing, succeeds at nothing, accomplishes nothing, except he's a hashtag good dad.

• 18:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Andy Greenwald?

  And.

• 18:55Chris Ryan?

  I've seen people say that. I, I push back on that a little bit, but.

• 18:59Andy Greenwald?

  You think he's a problematic parent?

• 19:00Chris Ryan?

  No, I think he accomplished, I mean, like, I think he does a lot, you know?

• 19:04Andy Greenwald?

  But I just mean in terms of his role in The French 75, his role in society during the 16 years, even when he is chased out.

• 19:10Chris Ryan?

  He's a passenger, yeah.

• 19:11Andy Greenwald?

  He's a passenger like everyone else. And I kinda, I, I found that to be very, it felt like a very personal movie in that way, um, to, to PTA, and I found that really fascinating. And, you know, I think you saw this coming for me, because you saw the movie before I did, but the end wrecked me. Like, the end is, and we won't spoil it, but the last two lines of dialogue, like, Adam bombed my heart.

• 19:34Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:34Andy Greenwald?

  And I'm not recovered from it. Like, that's the new want to have a catch dad, as far as I'm concerned. And as a hashtag girl dad, like there's no going back for me from this movie. And the fact that it, the fact that a movie like this contains that much note perfect sentiment. And also, Saturday Night Live legend Jim Downey of Jeff Epstein with the island? I would have heard.

• 19:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 19:59Andy Greenwald?

  Saying, coining the phrase semen demon.

• 20:01Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 20:02Andy Greenwald?

  There's something for everyone in this film.

• 20:04Chris Ryan?

  Uh, being a girl dad is a great segue to this episode of task. Should we take it?

• 20:08Andy Greenwald?

  Well done.

• 20:09Chris Ryan?

  All right. So, uh, episode four, All Roads. This one's written by Brad Ingalls, being directed by Sally Richardson Whitfield. It is, we can go two directions with this conversation. We'll get to both of them. But do you want to talk about the human drama moments? Or do you want to talk about the crime thriller moments? Cause I have stuff for both.

• 20:31Andy Greenwald?

  I think we should probably start with the crime thriller stuff.

• 20:34Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 20:34Andy Greenwald?

  That is the noisiest part and in some ways the most confusing part. And we should say again, our talk now is going to be followed by the talk we had with the creators and actors last night. We didn't get in the weeds with it so much.

• 20:46Chris Ryan?

  It's somewhat artificially capped because you've got the person who wrote the series and someone who directed half of, almost half of it. Uh, and you've got, obviously got the performers. So the conversation taking place basically at the midway point in the season caps what they can say about

• 21:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 21:03Chris Ryan?

  The piece itself meant to them or whatever.

• 21:05Andy Greenwald?

  And also the nature of the event last night kept us from saying, no, but really Brad, how did he get the phone?

• 21:11Chris Ryan?

  Well, let's talk about how did he get the phone?

• 21:13Andy Greenwald?

  Because we love the show and we have faith in his vision as a creator. And I also am fairly confident, having not watched ahead, that the next episode will make some of those beats clearer. But it is worth noting that, that in the sense of like the masterful, uh, navigation thus far through this thicket of characters and, and themes and betrayals.

• 21:36Andy Greenwald?

  Has been really, really clear. And this was the first time when I had to like rewind a couple of times and still feel not entirely. I understand that. I think I understand what's essential to understand.

• 21:46Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 21:47Andy Greenwald?

  About, you know, a mole or perhaps moles have diverted the phone, put the phone in the hands of the Darkhearts and thus.

• 21:55Chris Ryan?

  Well, no, let's, let's break it down. In the beginning of the episode, when the task force is having a larger meeting with some other law enforcement who are going to be assisting them with this bust at the park or this prospective bust at the park. Aaliyah is holding up Ray's phone.

• 22:13Andy Greenwald?

  In a evidence bag.

• 22:14Chris Ryan?

  In an evidence bag. And she's like, we have been communicating with Cliff as a prospective drug buyer.

• 22:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 22:23Chris Ryan?

  So he thinks he's meeting us tonight. We're all going to be there three hours early. We're going to be in place. There's a possibility that the kid Sam is going to be in the car. So it's a live wire situation.

• 22:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 22:36Chris Ryan?

  We have to also approach this as if also a rescue as well as a bust.

• 22:39Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 22:41Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Throughout the episode, but especially in subsequent scenes, like really early on in it, after that briefing, we are getting hints and lingering shots and we have sort of broken. There's a very thin wall that crime shows have where it's like, and I, we've talked about this a lot, whether or not that the characters on the show are at the exact same place as the audience or where the audience is outpacing the characters. And this is one of the hardest things there is to balance as a writer, I'm sure. As a novelist, you know, as a filmmaker, whatever it is.

• 23:14Andy Greenwald?

  Not a nonfiction writer. They know more and they're fascists.

• 23:20Andy Greenwald?

  Very declarative.

• 23:21Chris Ryan?

  So early on, we get a, I would say a couple of,

• 23:26Chris Ryan?

  oh, that's why they cast Martha Plimpton shots because she is obviously an incredibly accomplished actress and a well-known person. So casting her as Kathleen McGinty to just be like, I'm too old for this shit three times seems like a waste. So it's not a huge shock that. At least we are being tipped towards the idea that McGinty is in some part the leak on the law enforcement side leaking information of the dark.

• 23:53Andy Greenwald?

  And that is, the thumb is on the scale for that as well, because in the van outside at the park, like where in Tom's little control center where she is as well, there's a line of dialogue, and I'm sure I noted it down, but I didn't highlight it in my notes, where there's some comment about there being a mole or there being some mistrust.

• 24:10Chris Ryan?

  And then She dismisses it.

• 24:12Andy Greenwald?

  In the, not just that, the edit cuts to her. Like, this is, Sally and Brad talked a lot about the collaboration.

• 24:18Chris Ryan?

  It's essentially the crime thriller version of Jim Halpert face. You know, it's like, instead of selling the joke, you're selling, it could be her now.

• 24:25Andy Greenwald?

  And Sally and Brad did talk about the work they did, extensive work they did in the edit on this episode to help shape it and help guide the audience where they wanted the audience to be.

• 24:35Chris Ryan?

  That's, this is the delicate thing.

• 24:36Andy Greenwald?

  It could be a misdirect.

• 24:37Chris Ryan?

  Everybody wants it to be a shock, but they also want the shock to make sense.

• 24:41Andy Greenwald?

  To feel earned, yeah.

• 24:42Chris Ryan?

  And there's one way of doing that, which is, forgive me for spoiling Usual Suspects, but it's the Kaiser Soze reveal.

• 24:49Andy Greenwald?

  I don't get the reference.

• 24:50Chris Ryan?

  Where it all happens at the end.

• 24:52Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 24:52Chris Ryan?

  Right? You're watching it the first time through and you're just like, oh my God, who's Kaiser Soze? Who's Kaiser Soze? Is it another person that we haven't seen? And it turns out it's not. And that all of that is sort of recontextualized.

• 25:03Andy Greenwald?

  You want me to spoil it?

• 25:03Chris Ryan?

  No, no, let's let people enjoy Kevin Spacey and Bryan Singer's work. Just, you know.

• 25:11Andy Greenwald?

  The best possible way to spoil it, by celebrating two of our great icons of cinema.

• 25:17Chris Ryan?

  Or you can be, the camera lingers, and this is an interesting choice that they made where Ruffalo's character, Tom, leaves the room and we stay with Kathleen McGinty and get her calling saying, hey, we got a problem now. She could be calling her contractor. I don't know.

• 25:36Andy Greenwald?

  I think we know. The question is how many people are.

• 25:39Chris Ryan?

  Yes, because I have a hard time believing that the person who is largely like seems to be in charge of Philadelphia law enforcement is going to also be rooting around in evidence lockers right at this crucial moment.

• 25:53Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, so thus the the cloud of suspicion has not lifted off of the other members of the task force, particularly Aaliyah, who is the last one we see with the phone.

• 26:05Chris Ryan?

  She's the last one we see with the phone and we have spent the least amount of time with her personally.

• 26:08Andy Greenwald?

  And Grasso is remains a suspect for a number of reasons, one of which being he tells Tom that he was interviewed by some lady, which connects them.

• 26:17Chris Ryan?

  But also pretends like he can't remember her name, which seems unlikely.

• 26:20Andy Greenwald?

  Seems unlikely. And then two, his sudden crisis of faith.

• 26:24Chris Ryan?

  He is the reverse semen demon.

• 26:25Andy Greenwald?

  He is. Actually, I think the reverse semen demon would be something else.

• 26:30Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 26:31Andy Greenwald?

  And we probably shouldn't cover that on this podcast. However, I might bring it over to our friends at the Big Pick. It's a much safer place to discuss.

• 26:38Chris Ryan?

  If somebody skipped the one battle part and just jumped to that, that would be confusing. What I mean is, he suddenly has this, I guess you could say, kind of sweet and consistent with his character, crisis of conscience, where he's like, but kind of old fashioned and a bit odd, where he's like, I don't want to have our first time, meaning his and Lizzie's first time having sex, in your marriage bed.

• 27:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 27:03Chris Ryan?

  Which is fine, but odd. And I read that personally as this guy knows that he is engaged in betrayal.

• 27:14Andy Greenwald?

  And sin.

• 27:15Chris Ryan?

  And doesn't want to further complicate things.

• 27:18Andy Greenwald?

  I felt that as well. But I also credit the show for doing the legwork to make that kind of crisis of faith, of confidence plausible within the bounds of.

• 27:31Chris Ryan?

  Yes, of Grasso, who's casting around about faith.

• 27:34Andy Greenwald?

  Keeps asking Tom questions about being a priest or not being a priest, or how he felt about it, how he feels. So, you know, he is, he is, he is in the midst of his journey too.

• 27:45Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 27:46Andy Greenwald?

  Not to step on it, but Brad gives a very, I thought, very insightful and interesting answer in our conversation that you guys will hear later, about where he likes to engage with characters on their own internal arcs and journeys, and that tracks. So it's, it's the best scenario. It's good on both sides.

• 27:59Chris Ryan?

  Is there any part of you that?

• 28:05Chris Ryan?

  See, this is honestly not the most interesting part of the show to me is like, who's the mole?

• 28:10Andy Greenwald?

  Totally.

• 28:10Chris Ryan?

  I remember having this conversation, maybe I actually wrote about it, when The Night Of came out. And the first couple of episodes of The Night Of, you're just like, I cannot believe the world of New York that this show is building and how amazing, you know, the depth of feeling and the depth of like perception that this show has. And then it becomes like, who done it? Who really did it then? And that's fine. All shows need to arrive. They're all crime shows eventually need to solve their crime in question. Honestly, you can make a case for any one of these people, like Crosso, I can understand. Lizzie, it would be strange at this point, but also like, she is kind of like at once

• 28:54Chris Ryan?

  very gifted, but also vulnerable because clearly her life is sort of spinning out of control on the outside. Aaliyah, we just don't know a ton about other than her monologue last week that even, I think we broached the idea that that could have been performance in some way. In any case, that's happening and on the flip side of it, you know, the dark hearts are slowly making their way.

• 29:18Andy Greenwald?

  Not so slowly.

• 29:19Chris Ryan?

  Well.

• 29:19Andy Greenwald?

  This whole show has happened in four days.

• 29:21Chris Ryan?

  I was just gonna say slowly making their way through the huge amount of volumes of photo books that motorcycle gangs keep.

• 29:28Andy Greenwald?

  They're very nostalgic people. That's incredible. It's true.

• 29:33Chris Ryan?

  This is like Stringer Bell, like, are you taking notes on a criminal conspiracy?

• 29:37Andy Greenwald?

  Hey, we're having a gang meeting, guys.

• 29:39Chris Ryan?

  Are you taking lots of group photos?

• 29:40Andy Greenwald?

  Get together, get together. Should we take our guns off? No, no, no, no, no. I want to see him in all the pictures.

• 29:45Chris Ryan?

  If they got RICO charges, it would just be like, in evidence, the collected photographic evidence.

• 29:51Andy Greenwald?

  And they're all in like the folders that they used to give you at the drugstore that says like, "Coat of Color" on the front.

• 29:56Chris Ryan?

  Reading rally. The site of a shooting that we participated in.

• 30:02Andy Greenwald?

  It's just a bunch of guys being like, "Oh, over dead body."

• 30:05Chris Ryan?

  In any case, Perry is searching for his own mole. And he seems to have at least started to arrive at it by finding a picture at the very end of Maeve with Billy and Billy holding his holster and the gun that was used in the shooting.

• 30:19Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think it's belaboring the point to just say again that like, all serialized dramas are to an extent puzzle boxes with something to be solved. The best of them, and I would, through four episodes, put Task in that category, hide that, you know, they build on, if the puzzle box part is the skeleton, like the muscle, blood, sinew, all that other stuff is literally, in my tortured metaphor, the meat of the show. And so, to your point, like, I don't really care who the mole is. I don't have odds on FanDuel about it. I'm really excited to see where the story takes us and what we gain from it.

• 31:02Chris Ryan?

  I also like, whether it's intentional or not, what it says about how hard it is to just do one thing.

• 31:09Andy Greenwald?

  One task, if you will.

• 31:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Because, think about a conventional show, or another version of the show would be Robbie and Tom on this kind of like, we are just gonna collide at some point. This is he, you know, we're the best at what we do. Robbie's not the best at what he does. He just fucked up basically the biggest deal of his life. And- You know, by trusting Cliff and Cliff's contacts, but also, just in general, like, I think he's got pie in the sky ideas and almost childlike ideas about going to Canada and living on an island and having Swiss Family Robinson up there. And Tom is like, kind of barely holding it together. His whole life is coming apart. And now he's gotta worry more about who from his side is leaking information-

• 31:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 31:54Chris Ryan?

  -than just finding this kid, which is supposed to be his job.

• 31:58Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I'll take it a step further. He's so far from the best at what he does, that in the world in which McGinty is a mole, or has, you know, a second allegiance, she put him in this job-

• 32:12Chris Ryan?

  On purpose.

• 32:12Andy Greenwald?

  On purpose.

• 32:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 32:13Andy Greenwald?

  Because he isn't-

• 32:14Chris Ryan?

  This guy's handing out pamphlets at like, trade fairs.

• 32:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. So, if you extrapolate it further, there's the possibility that this task force was put together to serve the Darkheart's interest, to find out with the full engine of the state behind it, who's robbing them.

• 32:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 32:32Andy Greenwald?

  And then to make everything go away.

• 32:33Chris Ryan?

  Well, that was actually, that's a very good point. Because you would say, she sure put the, she identifies it's Darkheart's for him.

• 32:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 32:41Chris Ryan?

  You know, and then Grosso gives him a certain amount of information, and we have a couple of outside law enforcement people who say very important things, like, don't trust anyone. But I don't know how on the ball Tom is with this stuff, because he's obviously got a lot going on.

• 32:57Andy Greenwald?

  It also ties into, I think, one of- Brad Ingelsby's like main themes in this work, if not all of his work, is that all of society is a collection of systems and that kind of work in concert with each other, good and bad, cop and criminal. Robbie, as a sort of noble loser, failure, is a wild card. He's the radical in this. And both sides need that stamped out, unfortunately. Particularly unfortunately, because it's like, you know, man, he just, and I brought this up again with him in the thing we did last night, so I'll let him speak to it.

• 33:38Andy Greenwald?

  When I say him, I mean Brad. But like, he does not let up in his storytelling. Like a more enjoyable, not enjoyable, but like a more, a lighter entertainment version of Heat, which would get a, you know, a 10 star rating, five star rating for you on Letterboxd. Would be all about the, the action, comma, the juice of the pursuit. There wouldn't be time, because I think everyone watching the show is like, I don't think this is going to work out awesome for Robbie. We don't actually know what's going to happen, but it doesn't seem great. We wouldn't have spent this much time on the father-daughter dance practice. You know, like they just wouldn't have done it.

• 34:20Chris Ryan?

  That was like the, I mean, like, we're starting to get into the tragedy aspect. We've lost Cliff in a brutal, brutal way.

• 34:27Andy Greenwald?

  Can I talk about that for a second?

• 34:28Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 34:29Andy Greenwald?

  Or do you want to finish your thought?

• 34:31Chris Ryan?

  I, I just think that like, everything now is starting to point in the wrong direction for people, you know?

• 34:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, that scene was devastating. It was beautifully shot by Sally. It was Tom Pelphrey's Satisized in the Biz.

• 34:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Really like an incredible, that must have been an awesome, awesome episode as an actor, because you get to have a prologue moment, still sad, because his wife is sort of drifting away from him. We don't really get it.

• 34:57Andy Greenwald?

  But he gets to play the other version of himself.

• 34:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he gets to play the younger version of himself. We get to see him with his brother. We get to see him in happier times, more or less. And then we get this moment where he... Both where he thinks, you know, everything is gonna be okay because, you know, we've decided we're gonna go to Canada, then that got shot down by Maeve with some like really basic follow-up questions. And he gets this grace moment with his daughter, but feels very, it's starting to feel a little McBeaney, you know?

• 35:27Andy Greenwald?

  Unfortunately so. Speaking of McBeaney, Cliff, I think, I don't think anybody had odds that Cliff was coming out of this episode.

• 35:35Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 35:36Andy Greenwald?

  On two feet.

• 35:37Chris Ryan?

  And it's a little confusing because like, obviously, there's this car stealing situation and Cliff steals a car that looks a lot like the car that eventually gets rushed. If I were, you know, it's, they're both white sedans, I think.

• 35:48Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, you mean the car that the people are looking for their daughter?

• 35:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And so there's a lot of misdirection. And I don't know how much of it is conscious among the criminals versus what the show did to just sort of throw us off.

• 36:02Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 36:03Chris Ryan?

  And then on top of that, when did the, when did the buy get changed from the park to wherever they're meeting somewhere?

• 36:10Andy Greenwald?

  Right. And that's

• 36:11Chris Ryan?

  Looks like off the Wistahickin somewhere, you know?

• 36:13Andy Greenwald?

  And the inference is that it changed when someone else was pretending to be Ray.

• 36:18Chris Ryan?

  Yes, that they were like, actually, meet me over here.

• 36:20Andy Greenwald?

  Meet me here. Okay, I have to talk about Cliff. Great actor, great performance.

• 36:28Chris Ryan?

  Raul Castillo.

• 36:28Andy Greenwald?

  Raul Castillo. I'm in a zag.

• 36:33Andy Greenwald?

  Kind of got off easier than I thought, to be honest with you.

• 36:38Chris Ryan?

  His head was, his brains were like coming out of his head. Yeah.

• 36:41Andy Greenwald?

  But he was alive.

• 36:42Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 36:43Andy Greenwald?

  You know, we've seen, he was, could have just gone into the blue tent for a little bit.

• 36:46Chris Ryan?

  I gotta say, getting Saran wrapped is like one of my top, top ways I don't want to go out.

• 36:51Andy Greenwald?

  Listen, I don't want to tell.

• 36:52Chris Ryan?

  It's like shark.

• 36:54Andy Greenwald?

  Go for it.

• 36:56Chris Ryan?

  I think, I think like any kind of skydiving accident where I'm like, ah, this is, I have like time to think about what's gonna happen.

• 37:04Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, you mean every time I'm on an airplane?

• 37:08Andy Greenwald?

  That's just what I think about. I'm not saying it's gonna happen.

• 37:11Chris Ryan?

  That I don't mind.

• 37:12Andy Greenwald?

  I know. You ride the waves up there. You're like Garrett on 100-foot wave up in the sky. Chasing the big ones. It's beautiful for you.

• 37:23Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe I should be more like CJ next time I get on a national flight.

• 37:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:27Andy Greenwald?

  This is where nature's taking me. No, I'm not saying that he had a pleasant exit from Earth.

• 37:33Chris Ryan?

  Just watching Tenny on a 3M screen.

• 37:35Andy Greenwald?

  We got intended.

• 37:38Andy Greenwald?

  It's more that, far be it for me to tell Jason how to do his job. I have never been in management.

• 37:43Chris Ryan?

  Jason, yeah.

• 37:44Andy Greenwald?

  Let alone, you know, the very stressful position.

• 37:47Chris Ryan?

  I think he's a move fast and break things kind of guy.

• 37:49Andy Greenwald?

  It's just that I feel like Cliff had more to tell him. You know what I mean?

• 37:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you know what? With advanced interrogation, I don't know where we're at. It's very, it's like, I don't know what, what, do you guys have like, if I put this guy through this much pain, I get this much information?

• 38:06Andy Greenwald?

  No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go galaxy brain on you here and say, I don't think it's about doing the sicario to people, or doing the Zero Dark Thirty.

• 38:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:14Andy Greenwald?

  One thing that I learned, and I think is true, I didn't learn, but one thing that was illustrated by one battle after another, and this is, I don't think it's a spoiler, if it is, hit 10 seconds.

• 38:24Andy Greenwald?

  People seem resigned to their own fates at different times when being confronted with, you know, the opposing forces or being interrogated. But as soon as the interrogator is just like, how's your sister doing? Then they spill, right? As soon as it becomes you're responsible for other people who didn't choose this life. So I'm just, just making a note. Look, broadly speaking, Dark Hearts, there's a more relatable workplace comedy there, I think, that I don't believe we're going to get into.

• 38:51Chris Ryan?

  Dark Hearts can't be broken.

• 38:52Andy Greenwald?

  But like, we learned in this episode that Perry, you know, has the autonomy to go around, interrupt people's dinner, wrap chains around his hands, and punch his direct reports in the mouth. But even he's got a boss.

• 39:04Chris Ryan?

  I love that. I love that little moment.

• 39:06Andy Greenwald?

  I do too.

• 39:06Chris Ryan?

  I also love that guy being like, my thing about this motorcycle club is I drive a car.

• 39:13Chris Ryan?

  That's how fucking bad I am.

• 39:15Andy Greenwald?

  He probably doesn't even take photos.

• 39:17Chris Ryan?

  I've gone all the way back around to having a cutlass. You know, like.

• 39:20Andy Greenwald?

  Cause it's like two motorcycles with a nice chair.

• 39:23Chris Ryan?

  It's like when you put two, two single beds together.

• 39:26Andy Greenwald?

  It's better.

• 39:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 39:27Andy Greenwald?

  That guy really cracked the code.

• 39:29Chris Ryan?

  European hotels right there.

• 39:31Andy Greenwald?

  Why do they still do that?

• 39:32Chris Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 39:33Andy Greenwald?

  Do you remember when last year we went to, we went to Norway for the media festival? We had, we had a very nice time, but one of the most confounding things about the, uh, uh, the, the hotel in Bergen was that it was like many European hotels, like two twin beds that you could join if you wanted company. But there were.

• 39:51Chris Ryan?

  If you wanted.

• 39:51Andy Greenwald?

  Oh no, it wasn't. It was one queen size bed, but two individual blankets, two individual quilts.

• 39:57Chris Ryan?

  That's how Scandies do it though.

• 39:59Andy Greenwald?

  So.

• 40:00Chris Ryan?

  Why would you share a blanket?

• 40:01Andy Greenwald?

  Cause it's like inefficient, they think.

• 40:04Chris Ryan?

  I think it's just like, it's inhumane that people have different body temperatures.

• 40:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but you can flip off part of it. Like, I feel like the whole point of like sharing a bed with someone is like, you share the whole experience. You can't like half ass it.

• 40:14Chris Ryan?

  Share the whole experience. Uh, I think that ultimately like, I like the way they do things over there.

• 40:20Andy Greenwald?

  Well, some things seem to have worked out. Like absolutely, you got me on the social contract.

• 40:26Chris Ryan?

  There's nothing like a ton of dried fish for breakfast, you know?

• 40:30Andy Greenwald?

  Kai, do you want to weigh in on this? Like, do you feel, you've traveled in Europe recently, do you? Do you, do you have a preference?

• 40:36Speaker 07

  The double duvets is not just a Scandi thing. That was very.

• 40:39Chris Ryan?

  European.

• 40:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think it's just a European thing. I, I personally love a double duvet. And I think America should adopt that.

• 40:46Andy Greenwald?

  Wow.

• 40:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, just like you can have your blanket. You wanna, you wanna strip it off and throw it over there.

• 40:50Andy Greenwald?

  Just a couple of NIMBYs standing in the way of my abundant agenda.

• 40:53Chris Ryan?

  I don't really think it's the overproduction of duvets that's gonna put this, this planet in the dumpster.

• 40:59Andy Greenwald?

  The way tariffs are going on duvets from Europe, we'll never be able to have this conversation in good faith. But second, I'm just saying like, I believe in more of a communitarian existence.

• 41:09Chris Ryan?

  For, for America, we should just make one big blanket that we all sleep under in this country.

• 41:13Andy Greenwald?

  Honestly, we should make one big Saran Wrap and just all go out like Cliff together. Cause that's what it feels like every day.

• 41:19Chris Ryan?

  Devin, you heard that's how we treat COVID now.

• 41:23Andy Greenwald?

  Well, look where we've ended up. Just another week of podcasting in the books. Oh, it's Monday. Can I also make a point? Well, you know what? No, I'll save this because this came up in our conversation with the gang.

• 41:37Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 41:39Andy Greenwald?

  Did you have any thoughts about, without saying it's whether it's like an admission of guilt or anything, but that Grasso and what's her name's?

• 41:51Chris Ryan?

  Lizzie.

• 41:51Andy Greenwald?

  Lizzie's date is happening after the botched.

• 41:55Chris Ryan?

  I just note with interest that if that meeting was supposed to happen at 11:00 PM, it looks like it was cold and wet outside. Lizzie's got that hood up.

• 42:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 42:06Chris Ryan?

  Then cut to they are at a bar and she's showered. She's got like her hair has been straightened and she's done her hair. So that would mean, and but Grasso was referring to, man, that really fucked that up. I assume that's the same night. So that would mean like they have gotten home, showered, then met back up again and stayed out for several beers. That's pushing Philly. Philly's like a 1:30 AM last call, right?

• 42:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but you know what? I'm just gonna let them have a pass on this because they're young people and they're able to like have a different work-life balance than I am. Like when you said went home and went out again, my eyes glazed over. Like that is psychopath behavior. Why would anyone ever do that?

• 42:48Chris Ryan?

  I'd love to be in a world where I did that.

• 42:50Andy Greenwald?

  We used to do that. And look at us now. Can't remember a thing.

• 42:54Chris Ryan?

  I was, you remember when we used to start going out at 10:00 PM in New York City? What would we do until then?

• 43:00Andy Greenwald?

  Not eat dinner, I'll tell you that much. I mean, play PlayStation?

• 43:05Chris Ryan?

  Play PlayStation, yeah. Read Vinland?

• 43:09Andy Greenwald?

  God, that's so sick. Wait, now you're making me yearn for it.

• 43:12Chris Ryan?

  Why did I pronounce Vinland like Grantland?

• 43:14Andy Greenwald?

  Vinland?

• 43:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Yeah, I noted that. I know that with interest.

• 43:19Andy Greenwald?

  Just the other thing before we get into the conversation.

• 43:23Andy Greenwald?

  The show, I don't know if everyone's having the same reaction to the show as this specifically, but like, we talked last week about how the longer running times, just for me anyway, hit different. Like, I just enjoy, I'm enjoying the pace of the show.

• 43:38Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 43:38Andy Greenwald?

  And one of the reasons why I enjoy the pace of the show is that this episode, for example, is shaped a certain way. You're expecting fireworks at the end, which don't actually come in the way you predict that they're gonna come. But even so, Brad is so talented at, I think, feeding people either what they want or what they don't even realize they need tonally, so that we're building up all this anticipation for the park stakeout. And then not only do we get the misdirect with the couple and the dog, we get Lizzie saying, you know, "How do I get cool patches and I'm gonna call you Bullseye?"

• 44:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:12Andy Greenwald?

  Which is just such a nice, like, mood lightener in that moment. It's, it's just being conducted very well. And I think that kind of execution comes from, not to be, infer too much from like, one evening with these people, but I think that you can draw a straight line from the balance and the rhythm of the show to the way these people clearly collaborated.

• 44:31Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm. I think also, like, even the moments where you could say, "It seems like Robbie could have called Bartos the, the truck driver."

• 44:43Andy Greenwald?

  Sick name.

• 44:44Chris Ryan?

  "That seems like a text message. Like, cool, can you meet me? I'll Venmo you, whatever." But it sets up, first of all, Robbie, I think they don't know who to trust.

• 44:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 44:55Chris Ryan?

  They're, they're, they're trying to do this as much in person as possible. And B, he has not thought this through.

• 45:02Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 45:03Chris Ryan?

  Like, he's got this kid with him, and he doesn't really seem to know exactly what to do as, as this kid's caretaker. This kid is now becoming wise to the fact that there is something very strange going on.

• 45:18Andy Greenwald?

  He saw some stuff.

• 45:19Chris Ryan?

  And on top of that... I thought that whole situation where he disappears and then this guy sees like a kid in the creek and is like, you know, what the hell is going on brought out a different side of Robbie than the one we've seen. And obviously this dude has like a rage streak.

• 45:35Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think that Maeve would have been more on board with the plan if Robbie had said, this guy Bartos is a truck driver, he's going to drive us to Canada. And then instead of pulling out a pamphlet, he pulled out a large leather bound book of photos of Bartos, Bartos's truck of like all the rest stops between there and Canada. And one of them labeled escape route in case of trouble.

• 45:55Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 45:56Andy Greenwald?

  Like, do you think that would have helped?

• 45:58Chris Ryan?

  I love that Maeve was like, I don't want to do that.

• 46:00Andy Greenwald?

  That sounds dumb.

• 46:01Chris Ryan?

  I'm not, I didn't do anything that requires me to leave like this. Like if anything, I want to go to fucking Brooklyn.

• 46:08Andy Greenwald?

  By the way, that is literally what my older daughter said to me last week when I suggested mini golf. Like this, leaving this house was not part of our negotiation. I refuse.

• 46:20Chris Ryan?

  Um, anything else on task this week?

• 46:23Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 46:23Chris Ryan?

  Uh, on Thursday, I think we'll do a little bit of a slow horses catch up.

• 46:27Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 46:28Chris Ryan?

  We could do some low down. Um, anything else that you're enjoying watching? It's really about you.

• 46:34Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I, we haven't really talked about, but I think English teacher has been great so far this season. I mean, so far they dumped the whole thing. I've only watched a couple. And, um, you, you sneaky guy, you, you jumped platonic. That was, that was the show that Kaia and I covered.

• 46:48Chris Ryan?

  I know. I couldn't, I couldn't handle being left out.

• 46:50Andy Greenwald?

  And then you finished the season. I haven't even done that yet.

• 46:52Chris Ryan?

  My wife was just homesick one day and was just like running through all of platonic.

• 46:56Andy Greenwald?

  It's a dream show for that.

• 46:56Chris Ryan?

  This is pretty fun.

• 46:57Andy Greenwald?

  Great show.

• 46:58Chris Ryan?

  Uh, all right. So let's get into our conversation that we had at Vidiot's last night after screening of the fourth episode. You'll hear from Brad Ingelsby, the creator, writer of the show Sally Richardson Whitfield, who directed three, four, and the upcoming sixth episode. And of course, Tom Pelfree, who plays Robbie and Mark Ruffalo, who apparently...

• 47:18Speaker 04

  Was the Hulk and I was surprised to see a lot of people asking him to sign stuff. And I was like, are you guys Zodiac fans? Like, what's going on? And I was like, oh yeah, that dude is in eight of the biggest movies of all time.

• 47:30Andy Greenwald?

  You didn't see the guy with the Funko Pop of Mark Ruffalo in You Can Count on Me?

• 47:34Speaker 04

  I know.

• 47:35Andy Greenwald?

  It's like, it's like young Mark Ruffalo on a park bench.

• 47:38Speaker 04

  Sign my spotlight jacket. Uh, no, Mark Ruffalo, these guys were all great. I hope you enjoy it. I think you can also watch it, right? You can also watch it. The crew is awesome to come out and film and record all this. We will be back on Thursday, running through some other shows that are on and we'll talk to you soon.

• 47:56Speaker 04

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• 48:04Speaker 04

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• 48:13Speaker 04

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• 48:25Speaker 04

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• 49:09Speaker 04

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• 49:39Speaker 04

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• 50:08Chris Ryan?

  I'm Chris Ryan.

• 50:10Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm Andy Greenwald.

• 50:11Chris Ryan?

  Thank you so much for coming out for this special screening of Task. Without further ado, let me bring everybody out here. First of all, the creator of Task, Brad Engelsby.

• 50:26Chris Ryan?

  The director of the episode you just watched, plus several others from the season, Sally Richardson-Whitfield.

• 50:37Chris Ryan?

  And of course, the stars of this show, Mark Ruffalo and Tom Pelphrey.

• 50:50Chris Ryan?

  Thank you. Guys, thanks so much for doing this. Thanks for coming out. What an amazing show. Give yourselves a round of applause, everybody, for everybody involved at Task.

• 51:02Speaker 04

  Thank you for having us, guys. It's really, I really appreciate it.

• 51:04Chris Ryan?

  This is sort of unique. We don't usually get to do like a mid-season screening, check in with the cast. This is kind of awesome. It's usually for a first episode or a last episode. It makes asking questions a little bit difficult because we don't want you guys to feel like you're in spoiler territory. So I'll keep it broad with you. Brad, to start with, it's such a balancing act, I would imagine, in assembling the show in terms of its structure, because you've got a whodunit, you've got two characters on a collision course, multiple mole hunts now, but you've also got all this, these human character beats that I think is what is bonding people to the show in the first place. So can you talk to me a little bit about assembling something that's got all these genre elements, but also this human drama?

• 51:46Speaker 04

  It's something that we struggle with sometimes in the edit, really, Chris, is trying to keep a balance. But it really is always about the characters. And I think whenever we're in the edit or even in the writing process, where you feel like the plot is overwhelming the show in some way.

• 52:06Chris Ryan?

  I always have to stop and check myself and say, what is the show really about? It's about these characters and it's about the emotional arcs of the characters. And never letting the plot have to take over that part of the show. So, and yet, we also have to move the plot along. There needs to be an engine. There needs to be a moment where the audience gets to the end of the episode and they want to keep going. And so I think it is, it is a balancing act. And I think I have to put myself in the viewer's shoes in the edit, in the writing process and say, you know, what is the right amount of emotion and plot? And I have to ask myself, you know, am I able to care about these characters? And are we servicing the plot?

• 52:48Chris Ryan?

  So it's kind of a bit of trial and error, really, of just saying, are we on the right path? And are we not losing sight of what the show's really about?

• 52:57Andy Greenwald?

  That said, Brad, you may have tipped your hand a little bit in this episode, and I'm sure eagle-eyed, Philadelphia eagle-eyed viewers would notice that over the course of this season, when things were going relatively decently for the characters, they were drinking yingling. This episode, they seem to exclusively be drinking rolling rock. So I'm wondering what you were saying about the emotional narrative power of our favorite watery domestic lagers?

• 53:21Chris Ryan?

  I didn't even notice that, Andy. I can't take any credit for that one. I really can't.

• 53:27Andy Greenwald?

  Mark noticed, I could tell.

• 53:29Chris Ryan?

  For Tom and Mark, how crucial, I mean, this goes without saying, but how crucial was filming in Delco, filming in the greater Philadelphia area, not only defining like the literal accents and voices of the characters, but also for building out maybe backstories, biographies? Did you find yourself, you know, immersing yourselves in Philadelphia high schools and like learning a little bit about local history? How did that work?

• 53:52Andy Greenwald?

  There will be a quiz after, just to be clear.

• 53:55Chris Ryan?

  This is a quiz.

• 53:58Chris Ryan?

  You know, just, there's just something you can never get by shooting in a place that isn't where you're actually located in a, in a show. It's just everywhere you look, it's the light, it's the feeling, it's the cars, it's the stores, it's the people. And it's always, I mean, if you let it, it will always be informing you. And it's the food. I started with a fake belly.

• 54:35Chris Ryan?

  And that just kept getting bigger and bigger. As my real belly underneath it was getting bigger and bigger. And my wife came to visit me and she said to my family, "Well, your father's eating his way through Philly."

• 54:50Chris Ryan?

  So, it's, yeah. That was my, I did a tour of the Philly food. And, and that was, that ended up being my character's biggest.

• 54:59Andy Greenwald?

  Anything particular you couldn't quit?

• 55:01Chris Ryan?

  What is it? A pork sandwich? Pork sandwich. Brock, basically, Rob? Yeah. That was cra- that's the one I'm, oh, not in this episode, but in one episode, I'm just plowing a sandwich.

• 55:15Chris Ryan?

  And that was just, I just had no idea the camera was running during that.

• 55:22Andy Greenwald?

  And Tom, you're not from Philly. You're from Jersey originally, which we'll forgive for the sake of this day. And.

• 55:30Andy Greenwald?

  That's what we should.

• 55:30Chris Ryan?

  Let's go, boo!

• 55:32Andy Greenwald?

  We all won today.

• 55:33Chris Ryan?

  I love it, I love it. When you live far enough north in New Jersey, everybody treats you like you're another borough of New York. And then you live far enough south in New Jersey and they think it's just an extension of Philadelphia. Like, we do have an actual state. We're all proud to live there. We're proud to be from there.

• 55:50Andy Greenwald?

  So, congratulations on Jackson Dart. And, but beyond that, one of the crazy things about the show is discovering how many of the members of the cast are not from America at all and are adopting this accent. I was wondering if you felt like a regional ambassador in welcoming people? And.

• 56:07Chris Ryan?

  I did. My entire task force was not American. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it was amazing. To your, to your question about filming in the area, it reminded me so much of where I grew up. You know, like, and like, the vibe on set was great. Like, the crew is just constantly busting my chops. You know, like, that's what I'm used to, being the way of showing affection and knowing that you're safe. Is like, if, if, if you can make fun of me, then we care about each other. Yeah. You know, like, this is a safe space. And that's like such a particular East Coast thing. I remember taking that out west when I was younger and it didn't really go well. Yeah.

• 56:51Chris Ryan?

  An asshole.

• 56:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, literally, literally like, wow, man. He's aggressive. It's like, oh, I, okay.

• 56:58Chris Ryan?

  I love you.

• 56:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, I love you, but, you know.

• 57:03Speaker 04

  So, and then, yeah, the Brit, I mean, they really, they really caught it amazingly well, didn't they?

• 57:10Chris Ryan?

  My wife, who's watches intently, could not believe that the entire task team was either British or Irish or South African.

• 57:26Andy Greenwald?

  Sally, you arrived, like, literally into Brad's backyard to take on work on the show. I was wondering what the tone meetings were like between you. And was there a location that he took you to or a place that you visited that served as kind of a eureka moment for you to unlock your own understanding of the visual palette of the show?

• 57:44Speaker 07

  Well, I'd have to say that I've seen every piece of woods.

• 57:50Andy Greenwald?

  In all of?

• 57:52Speaker 07

  Philadelphia. Yes, all of Pennsylvania. That, that really was. Some of my episodes and later on really take place outside of the city and, and really had to explore. My DP, Ellie is here for my episode.

• 58:09Speaker 04

  Ellie.

• 58:11Speaker 07

  And I'm, I'm pretty sure that we've lost a year or two of our life from the amount of bug spray that we had counter and poison ivy that we walked through. And ticks.

• 58:23Chris Ryan?

  Lyme disease.

• 58:24Speaker 07

  Lyme disease, this one. But I think, you know, obviously, and, and, oh, I love to say that every single home we went to was either a relative of Brad or a teacher who taught with him. And so I think a lot of those people really welcomed me into the community very much. And I really learned a lot about Philly from them and from obviously hanging around with Brad.

• 58:51Chris Ryan?

  But you had like that amazing moment in three with Maeve baptizing or showing Sam how to swim. And that's such a gorgeous moment. And that's the thing about Philly that's weird is like you'll be city, city, city, blink your eyes and you were in the, like, the middle of the woods.

• 59:07Speaker 07

  Be searched and searched and searched for that.

• 59:11Chris Ryan?

  Particular spot that turned out to be the perfect place. Yeah. That's one of my favorite moments of the series so far.

• 59:18Andy Greenwald?

  To Mark and Tom, how so far you have not crossed paths on the show. How siloed were you during production? Were you checking for each other's dailies? Were you trying to track the other performance to meet each other midway? Or?

• 59:30Chris Ryan?

  You're in deep competition.

• 59:34Andy Greenwald?

  What's, what's he up to?

• 59:35Chris Ryan?

  What's he doing in that?

• 59:37Andy Greenwald?

  I would have played that differently.

• 59:43Chris Ryan?

  No way. He's amazing. We literally would be, I think we only saw each other in passing. We'd just be like, ugh.

• 59:56Andy Greenwald?

  Mark said, Mark told me the other day, we had to do press for something. Mark told me the other day that before we even met, he watched me leave my trailer to go to set. And he could tell from about 100 yards away that I had ADHD.

• 1:00:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Andy Greenwald?

  He's patting the pockets.

• 1:00:16Chris Ryan?

  Where's money?

• 1:00:19Chris Ryan?

  Oh, fuck.

• 1:00:23Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I have it on.

• 1:00:26Andy Greenwald?

  I said, you could tell. He goes, oh, buddy.

• 1:00:34Andy Greenwald?

  I love this guy. No, we, it was never on purpose. We, we, we just kind of didn't see each other too much.

• 1:00:40Chris Ryan?

  We were in two totally different shows.

• 1:00:42Andy Greenwald?

  I know, I know.

• 1:00:44Chris Ryan?

  What's crazy is we don't ever actually meet in the show.

• 1:00:48Andy Greenwald?

  Spoiler. Oh, wait, without spoiling.

• 1:00:52Chris Ryan?

  Is Marvel watching?

• 1:00:56Andy Greenwald?

  But Brad, how much, again, no spoilers, obviously, but did you feel pressure in crafting these two characters cross scene?

• 1:01:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, so I think that, you know, the whole show is really structured as a collision course. And I think. You know, what we talked about was if that's the structure of the show and that's the engine of the show and the tension of the show, and not just for these two guys in the show, I think it's for, if we've done our job, it was always our hope that you care about everybody in the show. And so the tension is, oh, God, I know this is going to be a collision and I'm scared, I'm scared to see what's going to happen. And if that's the structure of the show, and every week you're telling the audience, they're getting a little closer, a little closer, you have to pay it off. And the audience has to be satisfied with exactly what happens when the collision comes. So I felt immense pressure and Sally

• 1:01:49Chris Ryan?

  and I spoke about this, I won't spoil anything, but this is, this is something we always, always talked about was, if that's the structure of a show, we have to pay it off. You know, if we've been leading the audience along that these two are going to meet eventually, it had better be worth the wait. Do they meet in a diner, just the two of them? Well, that was one, I think that was one location we knew we had to avoid.

• 1:02:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, Lanark Diner's right there.

• 1:02:13Chris Ryan?

  I have to admit.

• 1:02:14Speaker 04

  We shot in Lanark Diner.

• 1:02:15Chris Ryan?

  I know. The way that this was described to me, however, many years ago, when this was first starting to come around and somebody was just like, it's heat in Philly. And I like had to check that there were not hidden cameras around to make sure I wasn't getting punked. I want to talk to you a little bit about some of the, the genre elements of the show because this episode sort of concludes in this really tense 20 minute sequence that involves the park situation and then also the road. I don't, I can't wait to find out where you guys shot the, the cliff stuff, but it's confusing. You know, it's confusing for the characters and I think it's confusing as a first pass as an audience member and you have trust in the show that it's going to resolve itself and everything. But like, how do you guys, Sally and Brad, decide this is how much the audience knows, this is how

• 1:03:00Chris Ryan?

  much the characters know, and this is how much we have to keep held back until future episodes?

• 1:03:07Speaker 07

  I think that some of that came out in editing and we really spent the time to grab extra looks from people, other people, you know, thinking so that we could maybe come back and tease you guys a little bit. Is it her? Is it him? And I think that, I think that a lot of that is in editing, don't you think? I mean, obviously you've set it up. But just figuring out how we're gonna lay it out later and having different, at least that's my job. Give Brad lots of different choices so we can figure out how we really wanna weave this together at the very end.

• 1:03:43Speaker 04

  I think Sally's on to it, and she does such a wonderful job of giving us tons of pieces. It's true. She has amazing storyboards, and she's way ahead of us on set. But I think that's the, is the idea, is to have more in the edit. And so when you get to a sequence like this one, you know, you play it a few ways, and then you put yourself in the seat of the viewer and go, is the viewer ahead of us? Are they behind us? Is the tension still there? It's the order of revelation. When are things revealed? And that's, and that's something we did in "Mare" a lot. And it's something we do in this show a lot, is just when you reveal things as opposed to what you reveal. It's when you reveal them. And I think that this is a good sequence that explains that, or is just like, you know,

• 1:04:26Speaker 04

  when do you reveal that Cliff isn't where he's supposed to be? And I think that's just watching it in trial and error and see which version of the sequence is playing. We did a lot of versions of this sequence. We did a lot. And sometimes you just gotta watch it a few times and go, is this, is this the best version of the sequence that's hitting the emotional beats and the surprises?

• 1:04:44Andy Greenwald?

  Do you have any extra footage of the couple who lost their dog?

• 1:04:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Andy Greenwald?

  Do you ever consider, I don't wanna tell you how to do your job, but do you ever consider just...

• 1:04:52Speaker 07

  I was very happy that people laughed at that, cuz you never know.

• 1:04:56Chris Ryan?

  I can't, what do you think they talked about when they got home that night? It's just like, maybe dog ownership is not worth it.

• 1:05:04Speaker 04

  They never found that dog.

• 1:05:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:07Speaker 04

  It's a damn shame what they did to that dog.

• 1:05:08Chris Ryan?

  That's season two. Is you guys looking for the dog?

• 1:05:10Speaker 04

  Maybe season two, HBO.

• 1:05:14Andy Greenwald?

  One of my favorite things about the show, and this is definitely a compliment to you, to you, Brad, is that like, the show never, always validates the internal struggle of these two characters. They have had really, really, really wildly hard things happen to them. But the show also doesn't shy away from the actual consequences of that internal struggle, that there's a responsibility for that behavior. And without getting too into the weeds of preparation... Or ADHD, I wondered to both you guys, like Mark, as an actor, how do you bring Tom's home struggle, what's going on in his personal life, to work with him as he has to manage these kids in the workplace? Like, just as an actor, how do you carry that into those scenes?

• 1:05:55Chris Ryan?

  It's just like our lives, we're always carrying our home life everywhere we go. Tom's home life is just, it's eminently part of his existence. And it's on the forefront for a long time until Sam is gone, till we realize that Sam's been kidnapped. There's a lot of duplicating, you know, he's looking for this boy, and his boy is gone. And he's, you know, trying to put, hold together this task force of misfits. And his family's this task force of misfits. I mean, Brad does this really beautifully.

• 1:06:37Chris Ryan?

  And it's constantly informing things. But by the way, Sylvie Vacari, who plays my daughter Emily, is here.

• 1:06:48Speaker 04

  Sylvia, stand up.

• 1:06:51Chris Ryan?

  Where are you, Sylvia? Stand up, Sylvia. Stand up, Sylvia.

• 1:06:58Chris Ryan?

  Bravo.

• 1:07:01Chris Ryan?

  Amazing. So, yeah, and then she comes to work with me when I do. Here, she's here with me now.

• 1:07:10Andy Greenwald?

  And to you, Tom, I was wondering, like, one of the incredibly compelling things about Robbie is that he does have this almost sweethearted belief in the future that he deserves. And I wondered how much of that was tied to the fact that he's spent a decade or more hauling other people's garbage, and yet he still believes that he deserves something better than that.

• 1:07:31Andy Greenwald?

  Just curious how you balance that. Like, the moment particularly, we could talk in this episode, that is so heartbreaking, the dance, you know, it is agonizing to watch. But I wondered, as you play it, do you have to play that he believes he's going to take her to the dance?

• 1:07:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he's got to get the million dollars and a trip to Canada. Well, there's two parts of that. One is...

• 1:07:52Speaker 04

  You know, this is how we all get out of bed in the morning, isn't it? We all hope that there's better days ahead. I mean, I hope we all do, for all of us, for ourselves, for everybody else. Like, I think that's the reason that Robbie's so relatable is because we all have that. You know, even sometimes you have a bad day, or maybe a bad month. But like, it comes, it comes back around, you know? It's a, it always comes back around. And, um, and as far as that dance goes, yeah, I don't know. I, I'll say this about it. I got to become a father two and a half years ago. Yeah.

• 1:08:35Speaker 04

  It's, it's the wildest, the greatest thing ever, ever, ever, by a million times. And, um, being around those kids now, getting to play. I've played characters before, have kids, but like, knowing what it means now. Like, the infinite depth of the meaning that you could only guess at before makes everything so, um, rich. Regardless of what's happening in the show, one thing I never had a single question about was, would you do this for your kids? The answer, fuck yeah. Oh, yeah. Anything, you know?

• 1:09:15Chris Ryan?

  But there's an incredible balance to that scene, which is the dance, which is the scene with Maeve. We kind of present this Canada dream. And she asks all the questions a parent would ask a kid who was like, guess what? I'm going on a road trip. And you're just like, okay, where are you gonna sleep? How are you gonna eat? How are you gonna pay for gas? And it's like, she's just like, where are the kids gonna go to school? Like, where are we gonna buy groceries? And that's, I mean, you and Amelia have such an incredible thing in this series, but that, that moment, can you just tell me a little bit about playing that scene? And Robbie's dreams kind of coming down to earth there.

• 1:09:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, it's really interesting that you bring that scene up because that was truly, actually, one of the hardest ones for me. Do you remember? Do you remember how much I was tripping that day? Well, yeah, because you're trying to, well, no, you're just trying to balance.

• 1:09:59Speaker 07

  Like, you have so many places that you need to get to. And where are we going too far? Am I giving too much up now?

• 1:10:08Andy Greenwald?

  Sure. And how much do you fight?

• 1:10:10Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 1:10:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, no, because obviously Sally was directing that day. And that was strangely a scene that I struggled a lot with in a way that I didn't with some other scenes. And to your point, yes. You know, it's so interesting sometimes, like, when you think about, right? Like, acting, I'd be an acting nerd right now, real quick. But you think about an acting relationship, and it's not a literal thing. So Maeve's my niece, but my relationship to Maeve is often mom, which doesn't make any literal sense. But like, when I'm playing scenes with her, I often just give over to what arises if I act like she's my mom.

• 1:10:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Andy Greenwald?

  You know? And that's what we do in life, too. We just don't think about it. Like, we have an acting relationship with people that's not the same as our literal relationship. So you really want to try and find that. The last thing I'll say about that is how fucking good is Amelia? She is.

• 1:11:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Andy Greenwald?

  She is so talented. She is so incredible. I mean, the way that girl works, the way she shows up prepared, the way she... And she's such a light and a delight, like, so impressive.

• 1:11:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, those scenes pop, for sure.

• 1:11:25Andy Greenwald?

  Sally, you've had a long career as a director, and you've directed all kinds of genres, including Los Angeles basketball genre.

• 1:11:35Andy Greenwald?

  I wondered, what do you... How do you approach scenes like the ones we're talking about now, just to stay with it, in terms of directing intimacy and comfort? You know, it's very different than the scale that you're sometimes asked to do, even within a show like this.

• 1:11:48Speaker 07

  That's hard, because, I mean, obviously Brad is set up... You know, the words are there. So sometimes it's actually kind of easy. I mean, I have beautiful words. I have two great actors who've done their job. And my job is just to sort of gently glide, you know, guide them to the right spot, and...

• 1:12:12Andy Greenwald?

  Not always gently.

• 1:12:14Speaker 07

  Not...

• 1:12:18Speaker 07

  Someone doesn't like continuity.

• 1:12:26Chris Ryan?

  Is this another sandwich thing? Or what is it?

• 1:12:29Speaker 04

  It's Tom.

• 1:12:30Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:12:33Speaker 07

  But really, I mean, I was an actress for many years before I did this. So I really, I don't come to any scene with any expectations. And sometimes I'll have actors who will ask me for notes before they even start. Not these people, but you know, before they even start seeing anything for me. I'm like, no, I don't know what you're gonna do. And I really have to watch the performance. And for me, it's a feeling inside and knowing if I feel it and if I believe it. A lot of times with Mark, he'd come up and go, what do you think? And he would always know, because sometimes I don't know what to tell you, but I just know it's not right yet. And you know it's not right yet.

• 1:13:14Speaker 04

  That's why I was asking you.

• 1:13:16Speaker 07

  Yeah, I know. So we're both, and we're both going.

• 1:13:19Speaker 04

  It's not right.

• 1:13:20Speaker 07

  It's not right. I don't know.

• 1:13:22Speaker 04

  Should we do it again?

• 1:13:23Speaker 07

  I think we should do it again.

• 1:13:24Speaker 04

  Okay, let's do it one more time.

• 1:13:25Speaker 07

  But sometimes, but sometimes that is it. Or sometimes it's one word or asking a question. I think a lot of times I would just ask you a question.

• 1:13:34Speaker 04

  And I go, oh.

• 1:13:36Speaker 07

  Yeah, but because by asking a question, then you start, oh, yeah, you're right. Okay, yeah, I haven't thought about that.

• 1:13:41Speaker 04

  Especially when the question is, don't you think that could be better?

• 1:13:46Speaker 07

  But I mean, it's just a very hard question. I think I just let them guide me and then I know what to tell them. And sometimes it's just simply, you know, can you do that faster?

• 1:13:58Speaker 04

  That was a big one for me.

• 1:13:59Speaker 07

  You like that note, don't you? Can you just do that faster?

• 1:14:02Speaker 04

  I know exactly what you want.

• 1:14:05Chris Ryan?

  I was asking Tom, I was saying to him outside of the theater, that this seems like the kind of thing that if he wasn't in, he would be watching. Like, it's the kind of like crime show, awesome, like, piece of crime storytelling. And Mark, you were in one of my favorite crime films, Collateral, in Los Angeles.

• 1:14:22Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:14:23Chris Ryan?

  I wish you'd bring that goatee back. It was sick, the slicked back hair. It was awesome. I was wondering if you had any.

• 1:14:31Speaker 04

  That was me in Collateral.

• 1:14:33Chris Ryan?

  Anyone like on the panel, honestly, if there were any reference points from whether it was other series or other films that you were like, this is the kind of thing we're looking for, because the show has a very unique feel, but also has like, you know, points where it echoes, you know, maybe some classic crime films.

• 1:14:49Speaker 04

  I mean, I think for me, it was, structurally, Heat was an influence there. But I think the, yeah, I think the movie that spoke to me, and it's the reason we have a quarry, was Breaking Away. I don't know why, but that's a movie that I grew up watching all the time. It still resonates with me. It's about friendship. And it's why we have a quarry in the show, is I've always wanted to tell a story, you know, like Breaking Away, that was about friendship. And I really think Robbie and Cliff's story is a story of friendship. So I think that was an influence on me. In terms of the crime story, you know, Heat was there. I think The Town was another one that it kind of plays in a similar arena,

• 1:15:29Speaker 04

  I think. And then, you know, and then just trying to keep the emotion in the front of the piece, you know, so embrace, embrace the genre expectations while also trying to subvert it. And I think that's what we did in Mare, too, is we wrapped our arms around the whodunit, but we also tried to go a little deeper with the characters and the relationships within the community. So I think those are, I mean, strangely, Breaking Away was a big influence on me, especially for the Robbie storyline.

• 1:15:57Chris Ryan?

  That's awesome. I never would have thought that.

• 1:15:59Andy Greenwald?

  That's great.

• 1:16:00Chris Ryan?

  They got a reboot Breaking Away, but the cyclists are robbing stash houses.

• 1:16:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:16:04Chris Ryan?

  I'm in.

• 1:16:06Andy Greenwald?

  Who throws their pump into his spokes? Jamie. So Brad, on the, on the, on the. Sorry, I didn't know that one. Oh, God. On the podcast a couple of weeks ago, when the show premiered, I was, as we often are these weeks, finding different ways to compliment you and your writing. And there was one thing in specific that I said on the pod that I'd like to bring up again here, which is, I was reading a novel recently, and there's a character who teaches literature, and she says the advice that she tells her students is make it worse. Not in terms of quality, but like, make everyone's situation the most extreme version of it, so you can really see the stakes here.

• 1:16:47Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:16:48Andy Greenwald?

  And you are exceptional at that. Everything is terrible. I, without spoiling things, I wondered if you could talk a little bit about how you would grade yourself on how bad you made it in the episodes still to come.

• 1:17:02Andy Greenwald?

  And you guys can chime in as well.

• 1:17:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, on the episodes still to come, you're saying, Eddie.

• 1:17:06Andy Greenwald?

  Well, you could give, you give us both sides, the A side and the B side.

• 1:17:09Speaker 04

  So I, I always think the, a question I ask myself when I'm starting to write something is, why are we dropping in at this point in a character's life? Why right now? And I think I can answer that for every character in the show, I think. I can say, why are we coming into Lizzie's life right now? Right? Why are we coming into Grosso's? Why are we coming into Aaliyah's? And so I like to play that game. In the case of Tom and Robbie, they're both going through a crisis of faith in some way. Tom's is a more overt crisis of faith. He's, he's quite literally lost his faith. Robbie's is he has a faith. It's just quite a different faith.

• 1:17:50Speaker 04

  And so I think I made things as painful for both of them as I possibly could. And I think, and I think what I like about that is, you know, is that it gives them a wider arc, I would say. And I felt that way about, about the character of Mare too, is that I had to start her in a, a place of a lot of pain in order to get some level of healing at the end. And I think I like to have big arcs for characters in a show. And so in order to get a greater distance, you have to start them in a slightly lower place. In this case, they're both, so I would say A plus for the, you know, the pain I put on these characters, all the characters in the show.

• 1:18:34Speaker 07

  But I think that's what I, I loved about it was so much is that I feel like that's why people can relate to it so much. I don't find it that much different than people's reality. Maybe we don't have a murder happening, but we've all been through terribly awful things in our life and we're jumping into that in this film at that time. So I think that's why I enjoyed it so much, that I, I feel it so like deeply on an emotional level. And it was wonderful to be able to get such great words to direct.

• 1:19:08Chris Ryan?

  Tom, I mean, when, when it's, it's this incredibly pivotal moment in a character's life, but also seeming like every scene is, he's going through like an absolute gauntlet, like Robbie is like. Are you almost like, good? Let's just jump in it. Like, let's, let's, I don't need 10 scenes where I'm just doing exposition and walking around. Like, I like being in this. Or is it, is it daunting?

• 1:19:31Andy Greenwald?

  I want to get in there. Yeah. I, I mean, when you're in there with, with, with Brad and with Sally and Jeremiah, you stay in there all day. And you get in there and you're with people who understand what they're doing and understand that all of it is in service of the story. And you do that and you leave it at work. And then you go home in a good mood. You know, like it, everything about the process was a joy, even the painful parts. And that's what happens when you're around really talented people who, who know how to, how to, you know, run the ship, kind of. But, um, no, I, I'll, you know, I'm, I'm comfortable there.

• 1:20:10Chris Ryan?

  I think we can wrap up there, guys. Thank you so much for participating in this tonight. Mark, Tom, Sally, Brad, thank you so much. For Andy and I, thank you to everybody for coming out. Thank you to Vidit, KCRW. And you can watch or listen to this on the watch feed tomorrow at some point.

• 1:20:26Andy Greenwald?

  Go Birds.

• 1:20:35Chris Ryan?

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• 1:21:04Speaker 01

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