This week in EVs, Starlink's wireless battle with Dish, and Sony announces gaming monitors

The Verge's Nilay Patel, David Pierce, and Alex Cranz chat with transportation editor Andrew Hawkins about EVs, trucks, Tesla, and Starlink. Segment 1 - 02:07 Hyundai gives first look at Ioniq 6 EV as market share surges Electric vehicle companies have a serious quality problem Segment 2 - 23:44 Tesla reportedly doesn't have enough desks after Musk threatens to fire remote employees Tesla lays off nearly 200 Autopilot employees who help train the company's AI Uber drivers are liking the Teslas Tesla reportedly doesn’t have enough desks after Musk threatens to fire remote employees Starlink RV review: the dawn of space internet to go SpaceX asks Starlink customers for support in wireless battle with Dish Segment 3 - 46:27 Google's worst hardware flop was introduced 10 years ago today Sony announces InZone gaming monitors and headsets for PC and PS5 Samsung M8 Smart Monitor review: the good enough of both worlds Arm's Immortalis GPU is its first with hardware ray tracing for Android gaming Apple says iPads will keep working as home hubs in iPadOS 16, but there's a catch The Future Of trailer: The Verge’s first Netflix show about the future of everything Email us at [email protected], we'd love to hear from you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Today on The Vergecast, Andy Hawkins joins us to talk about all the news in EVs this week and why it's so hard to build a reliable one. Of course, Neelai ends up talking about trucks, but we'll also get into all the gadget news from this week. That's coming up right after this.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's Chief Investment Strategist, and Colin Martin, Head of Fixed Income Research and Strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring you fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's Chief Investment Strategist, and Colin Martin, Head of Fixed Income Research and Strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring you fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:59Nilay Patel?

  Hello and welcome to The Verchast, the flagship podcast of both Wednesdays and Fridays. Yeah.

• 2:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:05Nilay Patel?

  Two days a week. Did you ever guys ever listen like Zoo Crew Radio in high school? And they'd be like, "Hump Day." That's how I think David should start every Wednesday show. Hey, everybody. I've wanted a soundboard the whole time. Liam, can I get a soundboard?

• 2:17Speaker 00

  You cannot have a soundboard, Neelai. Sorry.

• 2:19Nilay Patel?

  All right, fine. I'm your friend, Neelai. David Pierce is here.

• 2:23David Pierce?

  Hey, I'm your friend who will always do dumb pranks at 7:30 in the morning while you're on your way to school.

• 2:28Nilay Patel?

  Amazing. Alex Cranz is here.

• 2:30Alex Cranz?

  I've never listened to the Zoo Crew.

• 2:31David Pierce?

  I think Zoo Crew is like the, the universal term for like the people who are on too early in the morning, who just sort of yelled at each other over microphones. Like whatever they were called, they were the Zoo Crew.

• 2:41Nilay Patel?

  That's exactly how I think about it. Andy Hawkins is here.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  Can I get like a weird nickname like "The Squeeg"?

• 2:47Alex Cranz?

  Yeah. Andy the Squeeg Hawkins is here.

• 2:51David Pierce?

  It's pretty good.

• 2:52Alex Cranz?

  Talking about cars.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  Awesome.

• 2:54Nilay Patel?

  Before we start, I just want to say that next six episodes of our Netflix show are out now, including the future of headphones, which is like the most Neelai episode that we've done. The show's great. All twelve episodes are up. People seem to be really liking it. Some people have told me that they're like, "I don't, the show is just about the future." I'm like, "It's called the future of." Like, yes, it is. It is just wild speculation. Like, that's the show.

• 3:21Nilay Patel?

  I hope you appreciate it. My mom really likes it. She tells all of her friends to watch it. Um, I've been trying to get them to start like a VPN thing, like K-pop stands. Try explaining that to your mom.

• 3:31Alex Cranz?

  No, absolutely not.

• 3:34Nilay Patel?

  I was like, "Just keep streaming."

• 3:37Nilay Patel?

  A bit of a quiet week. We're headed into the Fourth of July holiday. There is a lot of stuff going on. Andy's here because there's actually a lot of EV news this week. Then we got to talk about Starlink and Dish. The Project Jena 5's this update as always, and we got a little lightning round. But let's start with EVs. There's some Tesla news, actually quite a lot of Tesla news. There's some overall EV quality concerns across the industry. But I'll start, I, people have seen me tweeting about this stuff. I've had the F-150 Lightning, and I spent some time with Rivian this week. I'm a little, I don't want to like overdo, we haven't published the pieces yet, so I don't want to give them all away before I publish it. Well, this segment in our rundown is literally just called Truck Talk with Eli. We'll do another rounded Truck Talk. But here's what I will say about these two cars. And Andy, I know you've written about this before.

• 4:22Nilay Patel?

  It just really occurs to me that the F-150 Lightning is a very important product, right? The F-150 is the best-selling vehicle in the United States for like 40 years or something. It is super just an F-150. Like, they changed out the drivetrain. The drivetrain is really impressive. That truck is really fast. A guy in a Corvette Stingray drag raced me down the highway and I kept up with him in a pickup truck. And then he smoked me because I was like, I gotta, it's not my truck. He was very confident. So the drivetrain is impressive. All that stuff was great. But inside, it's an F-150. The software is still just a Ford. Imagine me reviewing the software inside of the F-150. That's where we went. Whereas the Rivian, the R1T and the R1S are really very, very similar.

• 5:03Nilay Patel?

  One has, one's a pickup truck and one's an SUV, but they're kind of the same car. That, you know, that's like a ground up re-architecting of a car. And it's very much, they started with this hardware and software platform. And they own all of the software, even down to the, like the little itty-bitty chips. They wrote the code for those chips. The way that Ford just like gets the parts from suppliers. Driving them back to back, it just occurred to me like that split has not really been investigated and we're going to obviously talk about Tesla a bunch here. They're also completely integrated in that way.

• 5:33Nilay Patel?

  We're going to talk about the quality problems across the EV industry. It just seems like there's more to do with how the cars are built that's changing than almost anything else right now.

• 5:43Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, I think the, the missions of both of these two companies are radically different. Ford, their mission is not to scare away their customers. They already have a gigantic base of customers who are loyal to them and will always buy F-150s. They buy a new one every five years potentially. And their goal is to not scare those people away. In fact, to just to, to make sure that they, that they stay within the Ford ecosystem, if you will. Whereas Rivian is just trying to build something from the ground up. And so I feel like that they probably have more of an incentive to do something that's new and innovative when it comes to in-car software than Ford, which was just to basically, like you said, slap a

• 6:26Speaker 03

  an EV powertrain onto a pre-existing Ford F-150. And that's why I think also you hear so much about the frunk, because it is literally the only thing that's different. About the Lightning as compared to past F-150s is the fact that it has this gigantic front trunk. The thing that Ford talks about the most is the frunk.

• 6:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, which rules, by the way. It's like, as somebody who owns a pickup truck, having an actual trunk is like, oh, my car's twice as useful as it was before.

• 6:52Alex Cranz?

  Your car's actually useful?

• 6:53Nilay Patel?

  Well, I mean, you can like, put stuff in the bed of a pickup truck. That's very useful, but it gets wet. It could get stolen. You can't like, putting your groceries in the bed of a pickup truck is actually not a good idea.

• 7:04Alex Cranz?

  My mom disagrees.

• 7:05Nilay Patel?

  She does it?

• 7:06Alex Cranz?

  She does it all the time. She has like, a little, like, gate extender that I hate the most. It's like a 2001 Chevy Silverado. And anytime I'm in town, it's still got like, an American flag tent on it, because it was my grandfather's. He's been dead for 20 years, you guys. She still has this truck with the American flag on it, and the little extender. And she puts that little extender down, and she loads the back of her truck with groceries. And then she's like, she puts like, ice cream in there. It's like 100 degrees outside. And she's like, this'll be fine. You're just making soup on the way home.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  The electric Silverado coming out next year, that is also, the gate extender is a big...

• 7:41Nilay Patel?

  It's never coming out.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, I'm sorry. Being unveiled next year, or what have you. When it actually goes on sale, when customers will actually take deliveries, is very much in question. I forgot that we have to make all those qualifications on Vaporware Cast.

• 7:54David Pierce?

  Is it out of the, it's a drawing stage, or no? Like, where's the, where are we in the Silverado?

• 7:59Speaker 03

  That's like, the big thing that Chevy is hyping, is the gate extender.

• 8:02Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, no, they've made one. There's a prototype, like, they'll, you can watch videos of the one truck they've made. And it has, it does have the gate extender. But are they, are they gonna make more than one? Who knows?

• 8:12David Pierce?

  The thing about the Ford that's really interesting to me is, it strikes me as like, and I say this as decidedly not a truck guy, but like, it seems to me like it would, it was smart for Ford to do kind of as little as possible here. Like, it's not like, there are like, massive things about the F-150 that this was the moment for them to solve. It's like, how do we take this very good truck that everybody likes for lots of very specific reasons, and make it electric? And that is like, I almost think it was smart to not try to solve any other problems except for that one. Whereas Rivian then has a much harder problem of being like, we have to convince you that this thing is actually better than the F-150, which is like, not a problem Ford has. They just have to keep making F-150s.

• 8:49Alex Cranz?

  Well, and Rivian is like, trying to create a new market, right? Wasn't that kind of the thing, Andy, that they're like, marketing to... People who eat granola and hike a lot.

• 8:57Nilay Patel?

  Adventure. They will, they will say the word adventure at you without a second hesitation.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  Right. They have the whole, like, there's the kitchen option that you can get with the R1T where you, there's like a pullout kitchen where you can cook all of your, what do people cook when they go camping? Beans?

• 9:12Nilay Patel?

  They cooked us a steak and potato hash in the kitchen at the event that I was at.

• 9:16Speaker 03

  I thought that hash is under embargo, Neela.

• 9:19Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I can't like give away like anything about the R1S, but I can probably talk about the hash and the R1T. What I'm getting at though is a little bit different than that. Like there's the expression in the product, which is, is it smart to just make an F-150 with an electric drivetrain? Yes, I think that's true. Yes, this thing made me the star of every Home Depot parking lot that I was in, especially when you open the frunk. Dads for miles around, like they get on the walkie talkies. We gotta go see this thing.

• 9:44Speaker 03

  It's like you blew the conch, you know, at the top of the mountain and all the dads came flocking.

• 9:49Nilay Patel?

  It was very good. And they all had, they all said two things to me. Everywhere I went, people said two things to me about it. One, they asked me about the range because everyone has crazy range anxiety. And two, almost everyone was like, I have a deposit on the Cybertruck. And then I'd be like, uh huh. And they'd be like, I know. And then we would just like have that moment over and over and over again. Cause like everyone just like gave Elon a hundred bucks or whatever for the Cybertruck. And no one really thinks they're gonna get one. They just all, everyone just has a deposit on the Cyber, like in the pickup truck community, you know, there was like the phone chain that was like, did you put your Cybertruck deposit down? And then it just like went around and everyone did it. It's bizarre. It was like the two things everyone said to me. I worried about the range. Does it get 300 miles like Ford says?

• 10:33Nilay Patel?

  And I have a deposit on the Cybertruck. And I was like, do you ever think you're gonna get one? And they're like, no.

• 10:40Nilay Patel?

  And then we would laugh and like, open the frunk some more. But what I was getting at is kind of bigger than that. So like, there's the, you know, the, the product of the F-150 and it's market on that. But the way that the cars have been designed and built, because Rivian and Tesla are new companies, they started with a software platform to run the whole car. And they started with these hard requirements that they're gonna write all of the software for all of the chips in the car. And like the meanest thing you can say about the traditional automakers is that they're basically banks that buy parts and turn them into cars, right? Like their big businesses are like financing and leasing. And the cars are like a way to get you into their bank.

• 11:24Nilay Patel?

  And the way the cars have traditionally been designed and built is like by buying lots of parts from suppliers that may or may not have chips in them and then integrate it. They're more like Dell than Apple, right?

• 11:33Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 11:34Nilay Patel?

  And like, I think the F-150 is just really interesting because Ford wants desperately to get away from that. They keep talking about it. They're splitting the company in two and the F-150 is kind of like stuck in the middle of that transition in that lots of it is new, but lots of it is just F-150 stuff. It was just very striking driving all these cars back to back.

• 11:56Speaker 03

  I mean, if you remember, like, you know, during the 2008 recession, when, you know, a lot of the auto industry had to get bailed out by the federal government, one of the first things that these companies did before they had to declare bankruptcy was to spin out their, their like their financial services businesses, you know? So like, it was clear that like, that was going to be something that like they saw as being like, that could save them potentially was, you know, was, was spinning those out or selling them off to, to like, you know, foreign companies, for example. But yeah, now it like today, it's like, it's much different. I don't know if you want to transition to like the, the study that just came out, the survey about vehicle quality, because like the today, it's like, we were always just sort of hopping and skipping in the auto industry from one crisis to another. And the crisis, you know, the, the most recent crisis is obviously supply chain and semiconductors.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  And now it's, you know, somewhat in some respects, it's gas prices and like, you know, how that's going to affect car sales and car sales are down, even though prices are still sort of like wildly out of whack. But, you know, I think that the, the most recent crisis with the, with the supply chain and the pandemic and everything that was happening, we saw like a really noticeable dip in vehicle quality. The survey was conducted by J.D. Power and Associates and it was like the most steepest drop in quality that they like have ever recorded in like 30 years of doing this survey. So it's clear that like, you know, while these companies like Rivian are, are exciting and coming along and promising sort of like a new architecture and a new way to think about cars, there is still like a lot that is dependent on sort of the old like tier one, tier two supply, supply chain issues.

• 13:26Speaker 03

  And that's going to affect all of the companies across the board, you know? And there's only so much vertical integration. That you can do like Tesla is trying to vertically integrate as much as they possibly can. But at the same time, they can't, they still can't make their own battery cells. They still need Panasonic to make all the batteries that go into these cars. And at that end, you're starting to see a lot of problems as well, because the prices are now shooting up and we're starting to wonder, are these cars actually ever going to be affordable for regular people? Or are they still just going to be these luxury products for rich people to buy?

• 13:58Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, this survey is fascinating. Electrical vehicle manufacturers are the biggest drops in quality. Polestar is dead last and they, I mean, that's fascinating, right? Polestar is connected to Volvo. They're not trying to make the fastest or craziest EVs. They're trying to make pretty practical ones that are well designed and like they're struggling. Tesla is seventh from the bottom. Every Tesla owner I know lately has been pointing out how creaky the car is or their cars are, or like where the panel gaps are, like that's just a Tesla thing that happens.

• 14:34Alex Cranz?

  There's that TikTok star, like this woman who does detailing on cars and she's now famous and she now has like her little TikTok business because she just one time was like, I'm just gonna roast this Tesla and all the problems with it. And she had like her little like paint meter. She's like, look how thin the paint is. She's been really crass about the gaps. It was great.

• 14:53Nilay Patel?

  TikTok auto detailers are my favorite TikTokers.

• 14:56Alex Cranz?

  They're my favorite. I'm like, oh, should I get one of those drill brushes? This feels like the right move.

• 15:02Nilay Patel?

  No, I definitely bought both a foam cannon and a drill brush because of TikTok. This is a real thing that happened.

• 15:06Speaker 03

  I had, I'm a transportation editor. I had no idea that there was this, this genre on TikTok. And my sister is an auto detailer in Missouri. I should, should I tell her to get on TikTok?

• 15:15Nilay Patel?

  Get on TikTok, dude.

• 15:16Speaker 03

  Oh my God.

• 15:17Nilay Patel?

  I mean, it's like ASMR for car nerds. Like, I don't know how else to describe it. You're like, here's someone gently brushing the console of a 1982 Toyota and you're like, you're gonna make it new again.

• 15:27Alex Cranz?

  It looks so nice afterwards.

• 15:30Nilay Patel?

  But anyway, so like Polestar is dead last, Tesla is seventh from the bottom. Ford has had numerous recalls on the Mach-E. They're different kinds of cars to build than traditional ICE cars, even though they obviously shared many, many components. It doesn't seem like we figured any of it out yet.

• 15:44David Pierce?

  Well, and this was the problem we were supposed to have solved with like traditional car manufacturers getting in the game. Right. It was like Tesla did a lot of things, right? But like was not as good at making lots of cars. And now this was supposed to be the moment where the people who are good at making lots of cars were going to come in and like simmer things down. And that, yeah, like to your point, that does not seem to be happening at all. And actually like the seems to be getting worse.

• 16:06Speaker 03

  The really interesting thing about the recalls, because there have been a ton and some of them have been really like, kind of like very concerning. Like Toyota just had like a major recall for this EV that they just put out, just came out. Like it's only been out for like a couple of weeks and they have to recall pretty much every single one of them because the, the wheel might fall off. Like while you're driving, which is like, that's not something that can be fixed with a over the air software update.

• 16:33David Pierce?

  The tire on the ground might just fall off.

• 16:35Speaker 03

  Yes, like the actual wheel.

• 16:36Nilay Patel?

  The bolts get undone.

• 16:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, the hub bolts were, were not the right bolts. And so it just goes to show that like, you know, the software issue is obviously very crucial, especially as cars become smarter and they start to use, you know, more advanced driver assist features. And like, you know, for, for example, like the Ford Mustang recall, like they're going to be able to fix that with an OTA update. But it's not coming until next, next month. It just sort of illustrates how far behind the traditional auto industry is compared to like the Rivian's and the Tesla's when it comes to kind of this stuff. Because as you say, they did not architect this stuff from the very beginning to accept software updates in this way. They had to create something and they're relying on a supplier base to provide them with the tools and the resources that they need.

• 17:20Speaker 03

  They're not doing it themselves, whereas Rivian and Ford have vertically integrated all of that stuff into their business model.

• 17:27Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, the hub bolts thing is at once like hilarious because it's Toyota and like they have a reputation for making really excellent long lasting cars. But it's also very understandable and that like. Someone was like, these will work if they fit enough. Like, that's like how I build things. I'm like, this is close enough.

• 17:42Alex Cranz?

  Like, the car's still there. It's not going anywhere.

• 17:46Nilay Patel?

  Literally is not going anywhere. Because if you take it somewhere, the wheels might come off. Like, we just published a review of that, right? The BZ4X.

• 17:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, Abigail Bassett wrote it for us, and she was not impressed with it. She thought it was pretty mediocre EV overall. And this was before, like, she turned in her review before the recall came out as well. And so I was just like, I reached out to her afterwards. I was like, I'm so glad you lived to write this review because it turns out this could have been a very, very bad, bad thing that happened to you.

• 18:14Nilay Patel?

  The other thing I want to call it from this survey is people hate the software in their cars and they in particular

• 18:20Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 18:20Nilay Patel?

  dislike CarPlay and Android Auto, which they find difficult to use. The introduction of wireless CarPlay and Android Auto attributes to an increase in connectivity problems, 4.9 problems per 100 vehicles in 2021 went up to 5.8 in 22. I'm just gonna say this, I know we've talked about CarPlay and Apple's vision for CarPlay. The more people that have talked to me about Apple's vision of taking over the screens from the auto industry, the more people that have just laughed and been like, this is never happening. Nobody wants this to happen. Also, it's impossible. Like, there's no standard car API for Apple to tap into to just take that and like, provide you a speedometer in CarPlay.

• 18:58Alex Cranz?

  Can you imagine the amount of work Apple, Tim Cook, would have to do to get all the carmakers to be like, you know what? Yes, we're gonna do an API.

• 19:09Nilay Patel?

  The best way I could describe this to you is what Apple is proposing is basically Windows 95.

• 19:14Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 19:15Nilay Patel?

  Like, you know, like, you know, you can install the Windows 95 and that whole thing got prettier, but then you're like, DOS is here. Like, DOS lurks in the background of Windows 95. And like, at some point, like, your computer is definitely still running DOS. And it wasn't until much later with NT, I think it was like, straight up Windows 7 and Windows 8 that finally like, got rid of most of the DOS underpinnings. Like, Windows 95 and 98 and ME were like, definitely just shells on DOS. That's what Apple is basically proposing with CarPlay. Like, you'll run your regular systems and you'll just provide us with the information we need to display it in CarPlay, but your stuff will still be there because there's no way to replace it.

• 19:57Nilay Patel?

  There's no standard, like, CAN bus is like, not a, it's not gonna work for them in that way. So like, the more people have talked to me, the more like... What are they even proposing here? Like, there's no way to build it.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  I don't understand why Apple isn't going the Google route, which like Google will like, you know, they have Android Auto, obviously, but they're also like working, you know, alongside a lot of automakers to just like install Android Automotive natively in a lot of cars. You know, like Polestar has it, a lot of Volvos have it. BMW just announced that some of its next cars will have native Android. And I'm just like curious, like, I don't know, why doesn't Apple do that?

• 20:32Nilay Patel?

  And once again, we're going to point to Polestar being dead last.

• 20:37Nilay Patel?

  Like Android is Android. I think there's like, it's an out, you know, and like Ford signed that big deal with Google to base the new version of Sync on Android, which is like another big question mark about the Lightning. Like Lightning I tested was somewhere between 90 and $93,000. And I was like, the software in this, like, I don't know what its future is. If you buy that truck now for 90 some thousand dollars and you think you're going to have it for 10 years, 10 years from now, you're on a dead end road of software because Ford is moving at some point next year to Android. But I think most people are taking that out because Google is there and they'll do it for you. But I don't think Google has it figured out either. And then CarPlay in general is like fairly confusing to use as the cars get more complicated. Because particularly

• 21:22Nilay Patel?

  for EVs, what you want is a like accurate range estimate. And to get the most accurate range estimate out of any EV, you've got to tell it where you're going. So now you're like flipping back and forth between Apple's vision of the world and EV vision of the world. And I would point out that even that vision of CarPlay we saw at WWDC was definitely for a gas car. Like gas meter, like the whole thing. It just like, I, this, I think the software story in cars, both from the how is a car architected to what is on the displays is like incomplete and total flux right now. Like, nobody knows what's going to happen.

• 21:57David Pierce?

  And, and all the way down at like, at the very bottom, it's like, people can't connect their phones to their cars with Bluetooth. Like Bluetooth is bad, is part of the problem here. And it's like, well, good luck with your beautiful vision of a CarPlay future, when I can't figure out how to do the like 11 button routine I have to do to get my phone to understand that it's in a car.

• 22:16Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I still plug mine in with a wire.

• 22:18Alex Cranz?

  I'm kind of flabbergasted that none of the carmakers have been like, oh, we all are asking you to use Android Auto. We're all asking you to use CarPlay if you want to have that. Fun experience, I guess. But we're not going to provide any like very natural way to like just slot your your phone in like a little computer into your car and be like boop, done. It charges, it connects everything and go.

• 22:40David Pierce?

  Oh, like a floppy disk? You do like a little slot you just stick it into and you get in the car?

• 22:44Alex Cranz?

  That's the dream for me is just be like boop, done. And then also you don't have to worry about texting and driving because then you have to like eject your phone and immediately you don't know where you're going because Waze is disconnected.

• 22:55David Pierce?

  I like this.

• 22:56Nilay Patel?

  So instead of the CD slot, you just want like the phone.

• 22:58Alex Cranz?

  Just a phone slot, just boop.

• 23:00Nilay Patel?

  And then when you like have to get out of your car and run away, you're like, hold on.

• 23:04Alex Cranz?

  Hold on, I gotta eject. Hold on, stop it, shut up.

• 23:06Nilay Patel?

  So I will say that the lightning is close. The new F150s are close in that there's a wireless charging pad and wireless carplay works fine. So you just like get in the car, you throw the phone in the pad, it starts charging. Off you go. I will again, reserve my detailed complaints about all of this software for the forthcoming review. But like at the end of the day, the the notion that anyone knows what's happening in cars. Well, there's two, there's two things that I'm obsessed with. One, all of these cars are being re-architected and who the winners and losers of that software battle are unknown. Rivian, like they developed their entire own software platform because they were on an open source platform and they just decided it wasn't good enough and they made their own. All kinds of companies make that decision, but for like consumer products. And now that's happening at the level of cars.

• 23:50Nilay Patel?

  And then second, I get to drift EVs around dirt tracks because that's how you test the products. And it's like, oh, this is great. All my interests are aligned.

• 24:00Nilay Patel?

  And it was like, yeah, again, I won't share too much about actually driving the R1S. It was beautiful truck, oval headlights, make your own decision. But you know, it's like a bunch of tech reporters and a bunch of car reporters. And I just, what you notice is like, we live in different worlds. We think about different things. And that was, you know, it's eye opening and obviously revealing, but you got the sense that like the car industry is still in a framework of gas cars. Like they still think about gas car stuff. And all the tech reporters like, no, like the real question to ask is how much headroom is in the Nvidia chip in this thing that runs Unreal Engine? Because like two years from now, is it going to be slow? Right? Like Rivian's like very prepared for that question. And like Ford is basically like, it's slow now, actually. It's quite slow.

• 24:46Speaker 03

  It's called managing expectations.

• 24:48Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, Rivian stuff is coming out next week. The Lightning should come out, the Lightning review should come out right after that. It was fun driving both. If you have questions, let me know because I'll try to put the answers in the reviews. All right. Like I said, there's actually a bunch of Tesla news. There's some Starlink news too. So let's take a break. Andy, stick with us. We'll come back for the Elon Musk segment of the Vergecast. We'll be right back.

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• 26:19Nilay Patel?

  We're back. Andy's still here. We got a bunch of Elon stuff to talk about. Let's stick with cars. Let's talk about Tesla. Tesla's going through it, man. What is going on with this company?

• 26:27Speaker 03

  Lots of layoffs. They decided to go the route of like slow rolling to the layoffs so that they just like have like multiple news cycles, like dedicated to how many people are getting laid off, rather than just like rip the Band-Aid off all at once. It's just like this excruciating process. So yeah, they just most recently, it was reported that they're laying off about 200 people from their autopilot team. And I guess most of these folks are like hourly workers who were tasked with like labeling. So that means that like you're sitting at a desk and you're looking through training data. And you're saying, this is a car. This is a pedestrian. This is a baby carriage. Don't run over these things.

• 27:09Speaker 03

  Those people don't work at Tesla anymore, which depending on how you feel about Tesla and autopilot, maybe is a little concerning. I don't know.

• 27:15David Pierce?

  Yeah. Do you track that specific part of the company being affected as meaning anything? Like, should we read anything into the fact that it's autopilot? Like 200 people in the scheme of Tesla is not that many people, but it is 200 people from sort of one specific team.

• 27:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I don't think that that means that like Tesla is going to stop labeling its trading data. Cause that would obviously be, I think, a huge blunder on their part and could result in, in potentially lots of crashes and deaths that they probably don't want to have happen. But I think that it is, what's clear is that like the industry in general is sort of turning to cheaper sources of that labor. They're outsourcing it to other countries where, you know, people work for, for less money than they do in the United States. We shouldn't assume that Tesla is going to stop doing this task altogether, just because these people are getting laid off.

• 28:01Nilay Patel?

  So, but the stealth layoff thing at Tesla is a slowly growing story, right? So first Elon sent the memo saying, everyone's got to go back to the office or you can quit. Which is like a very good way to make people quit without saying you're doing layoffs. Like we've seen that pattern repeat now a few times at other companies. So he does that first. Then there's this hilarious story that there's not enough desks in various Tesla offices for all the employees who are not forced to come back to work, which is very funny as well. Then there's this allegation from a number of employees that they were fired for, quote, performance reasons all at once. And that actually constituted a layoff event, giving them rise to some additional rights.

• 28:40Nilay Patel?

  That has led to a lawsuit. And then now we're seeing the 200 autopilot employees, all in the context of Elon saying, I feel bad about the economy. Tesla's overstaffed. But as of yet, he hasn't said, I'm just doing a layoff at Tesla. Like it's, it's this like death by a thousand cuts. And I kind of don't understand why, like of all of the CEOs in the entire world, the one who could say, I'm just going to fire about 10,000 people, like you can sign up and go, or I'll just, I'll just walk around the office pointing at people and saying you're fired. And like Elon can do that, you know, in a way that like no, no one else could get away with just saying, I'm, I'm making these cuts to deal with it.

• 29:15Alex Cranz?

  Does Tesla still not have like a PR department?

• 29:18Nilay Patel?

  No.

• 29:19Alex Cranz?

  Could that be part of this? Just somebody who actually knows about comms being like, hey buddy, your Twitter account does not actually equal corporate comms. And there's other ways to do this.

• 29:30Speaker 03

  That ship has sailed.

• 29:32Nilay Patel?

  It's like you're, you're talking about like, most CEOs don't want to do that, but Elon, like in particular is like, don't get in front of my Twitter account. Like you, the United States government, you want to get in front of my Twitter account? I'll just buy Twitter.

• 29:45Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 29:46Nilay Patel?

  That's where he's at with this.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  I mean, he's, he's literally still involved in like litigation with the SEC over the issue of whether or not he needs to get his tweets checked out with regards to whether or not they're like, they would have a material impact on Tesla's share price. And he's trying to get them to like vacate the settlement that he, he made, which required him to have someone, some lawyer somewhere. You talk about Trump's music, man. Elon's Twitter sitter is like another job.

• 30:09Nilay Patel?

  But he doesn't actually have one.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Is another job that I feel could be categorized in the same way.

• 30:15Nilay Patel?

  But, but he hasn't actually employed the Twitter sitter. Anyway.

• 30:18Speaker 03

  No, yeah.

• 30:18Nilay Patel?

  But I'm just saying like, it's weird that he hasn't just said, I'm, I'm making this move. I'm cutting Tesla down to be ready for the recession.

• 30:25Speaker 03

  They did the same thing in 2017. They had layoffs in 2017 and they slow rolled it and it came out drips and drabs over like multiple weeks and it was an excruciating news cycle. And they clearly just haven't learned anything since then, that this is just the way that this company does business. And, you know, in terms of like its labor practices, it's been well documented that there have been numerous lawsuits filed against Tesla over a toxic work culture, racist incidents happening in its factory in Fremont, gender discrimination. It's just, you know, sort of the list goes on and on. And so it seems like the way that they are doing these layoffs are just sort of part and parcel with sort of like a culture at Tesla that is extremely problematic.

• 31:07David Pierce?

  Well, and Neelai, I'm not sure I agree with you that Elon Musk is the, is the CEO who can get away with this right now. Like it's, it's, it's. Been a moment where like investors in particular are not super convinced that Tesla is a very well-run organization. And with all the Twitter stuff going on, there's been a lot of, you know, nerves. And I think if he were to come out and say, I'm laying off 10,000 people, like two years ago, Elon Musk, everybody just goes, you're so brave. And that's great. Now I'm not sure that works for him the same way. And I think there are a lot of people out there who are like worried about the future of Tesla, who are looking for reasons to get really, really, really, really worried about the future of Tesla.

• 31:45Alex Cranz?

  Well, and Tesla's stock is not doing great. All of his wealth is tied to it. I have no doubt that he's thinking, okay, which hurts my stock more? Just one ripping the Band-Aid or doing these like low trickles and hoping that everybody talking about the Music Man distracts from the fact that we keep laying people off every week?

• 32:02Nilay Patel?

  I don't, I don't want to like be full CNBC Eli, but like

• 32:06Alex Cranz?

  Do it.

• 32:06Nilay Patel?

  Like, I don't know that he cares that much. And also like Tesla is the most shorted stock in like world history. Like, people have been betting against Tesla stock the whole time. Like, at the end of the day, it's like bad overall, right? Like, people are losing their jobs. It's like heartbreaking. It's just strange to me that in everything else, it's brash moves. And in this thing that he signaled so loudly that he thinks the economy is bad and Tesla's overstaffed, he's letting it persist as opposed to just doing it. And I think maybe part of that is like he is distracted with all of the other things, like buying Twitter, like fighting with the SEC, like SpaceX generally is a going concern. Do you know he has a company that drills tunnels under the surface of the earth to slowly drive one car through them?

• 32:49David Pierce?

  They just got a new project in Vegas. They're, they're still doing it.

• 32:52Nilay Patel?

  The official tunnels of Gen 5, sis.

• 32:56Nilay Patel?

  It's just like with all that stuff, like maybe, maybe he was like, just figure it out. And like, so there's a slow bleed. It's just interesting, like Tesla's feeling it in a way that a lot of companies are feeling it. And that's, I think, unusual. Like Tesla has virtually unlimited demand. They have never been like, we made too many cars. They're always like, we cannot make enough cars.

• 33:14Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 33:14Nilay Patel?

  At every point in history. And now I think Elon's predicting like they're going to make too many cars, which is surprising.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Well, this is all happening at the same time that the Texas factory is coming online, the Berlin factory is coming online. Musk has described both of those factories as essentially just money furnaces at this mo- at the moment, where he's just shoveling money into a furnace. The Shanghai factory continues to go through a pretty like concerning cycle of opening and being forced to close because of COVID restrictions in China. I don't understand how that man gets a single minute of sleep every night, considering just the numerous catastrophes and fires he's forced to put out on a constant basis.

• 33:57Nilay Patel?

  And really, I think managing the lack of sleep explains a lot of the tweets.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  He hasn't tweeted in nine days.

• 34:03Nilay Patel?

  It's good for everybody.

• 34:04Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 34:05Speaker 03

  If you've noticed that the birds are singing a little bit more clearly outside your window and people seem to be walkering with a little bit more of an upright gait, it's because Elon Musk has not tweeted in eight days.

• 34:14Alex Cranz?

  Love this for all of us.

• 34:15Nilay Patel?

  The thing I'll say though, I said basically, you know, there's unlimited demand for these cars. But what is true right now is that they're being outsold by Hyundai and Kia, which have very hot EVs in the Kia EV6 and the Hyundai Ioniq 5. I see Ioniq 5s all over the place here. You know, I always look to see who's driving them and it's like a wide selection of diverse people.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  It's just people.

• 34:36Alex Cranz?

  It's just people.

• 34:37Nilay Patel?

  But with Tesla, it's like for a long time, I was like, oh, VC, VC, VC, startup guy, VC, VC.

• 34:43Alex Cranz?

  A lot of Patagonia vests.

• 34:44Nilay Patel?

  A lot of vests in Tesla's. But yeah, I don't live in New York City anymore and it's just, it's shocking to see how many EVs I see floating around. And then again, when I had the Lightning, I was like going to chargers and you just saw there, it was like Mach-E's, Ioniq 5s and like the odd Volvo XC40 Recharge, like populate all the chargers up here. And so I think the fact that like Hyundai is actually taking share from Tesla has got to be weighing on Elon's mind as well. He's tweeted that they're doing a good job.

• 35:12Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, I mean, he was like, he's had the luxury of being kind of first mover in this space for a long time and now he actually has to compete. And just the worst time to overextend yourself with a ton of new factories and a giant $48 billion Twitter purchase. Like, maybe not the best time to do all that.

• 35:29Speaker 03

  I think Hyundai and Kia made the right move, too, because they made enough cars for people to actually buy. Whereas a lot of the other automakers who are introducing these new EVs have limited supply. The F-150, they're only gonna be, there's only gonna be like several thousand delivered probably this year. It's gonna ramp up, obviously. But, you know, Hyundai actually, you know, Volkswagen, they sold out of the ID.4. There's not gonna be any available till 2023. Like Hyundai and Kia, they actually made enough cars for people to buy. And demand is obviously very high right now because people are getting pinched real hard by the gas prices. So I think that that was a smart move on Hyundai's part. They sort of came out at the right time, right place, right time, and they actually made enough.

• 36:08Nilay Patel?

  So now we gotta talk about the Ioniq 6, which, boy, were they like, people will go with it.

• 36:15Speaker 03

  It's, yeah, I don't know how that, that thing looks strange. They're leaning into this like retrofuturism thing, which like normally I think is like kind of a cool design choice. And I'm with it. I'm here for it. But yeah, this one, it seems like they're trying to do something like similar to like what Mercedes did with EQS. It's like extremely like bubble shaped and very like aerodynamic. But yeah, it's a sedan. No one's gonna buy that in the US.

• 36:41David Pierce?

  All I can think of is squishy minivan. That's just what I look at when, when I look at this. It's like somebody just took a minivan, removed the bucket seats and was like, here, here it is. You have a car now.

• 36:51Nilay Patel?

  I've seen a number of people, including Marques Brownlee tweet that it looks like an Apple Magic Mask. And then immediately his replies had people photoshopping a charger into the bottom, which is very good. We'll see. The notable thing I'll say about from this announcement, you should go look at the picture. It does look silly. Their head of design is like, we're sticking with buttons, like physical buttons. Touchscreens are dangerous when cars are moving.

• 37:14Alex Cranz?

  Yes.

• 37:14Nilay Patel?

  And I just want every car designer to like internalize this. Rivian's all touchscreens. The Lightning, regular F-150s have a lot of physical buttons and the Lightning has that portrait touchscreen. That takes the HVAC and puts it on the touchscreen.

• 37:28Alex Cranz?

  I hate it.

• 37:29Nilay Patel?

  And it's just like, what are you, what are you doing to me, man? Like, I'm driving an eight-ton pickup truck. Like, I can't be messing with the seat heaters like this. Like, leave me alone. So I appreciate that about it. Hyundai Kia.

• 37:40David Pierce?

  Can I just read this quote? Cause I actually wrote this. I took this quote out of the story that we did and was like, this is the thing. This is the answer. And it's, it's like you said, from, from Hyundai's design chief, whose name I should have written down and forgot. But it says, for us, anything that relates to the safety, we use hardware. Anything not related to safety, we'll use a touch interface. Like, that's it. Perfect. Crushed it.

• 38:00Alex Cranz?

  Love it.

• 38:00David Pierce?

  A plus. No notes. That is the answer.

• 38:03Nilay Patel?

  Go look at that picture. I mean, tell me if you think it looks like a magic mess.

• 38:07Alex Cranz?

  I think it looks cool.

• 38:08Nilay Patel?

  It does look cool. It has like some, like.

• 38:10Alex Cranz?

  It's got some PT Cruiser energy.

• 38:11David Pierce?

  Hmm.

• 38:12Nilay Patel?

  Wow, that's, that's harsh.

• 38:13David Pierce?

  Did you say cool and then PT Cruiser, like right next to each other? Did that happen?

• 38:17Nilay Patel?

  I was gonna say it has some old Porsche energy, but I would not have gone PT Cruiser.

• 38:22Alex Cranz?

  I want it to look like a car that Batman in the animated series would accidentally hit with his car while he's chasing the Joker. That's what I want from a car. And this, this has got a little of that energy, that PT Cruiser energy.

• 38:34David Pierce?

  You want to be the NPC bystander car?

• 38:36Alex Cranz?

  Yeah. I want it to look like a weird 30s car as designed by an animator in 1992.

• 38:44David Pierce?

  Dream big, Alex.

• 38:45Nilay Patel?

  And that's very much where Hyundai's going.

• 38:47Alex Cranz?

  That's, that's where they're going. They nailed it.

• 38:49Nilay Patel?

  That's true. Have you seen the new episode of Westworld, season four?

• 38:53Alex Cranz?

  I haven't watched it yet.

• 38:53Nilay Patel?

  Where her job is writing backstories for NPCs, which is very funny, because she was.

• 38:57Alex Cranz?

  What?

• 38:57David Pierce?

  Oh, my God.

• 38:57Alex Cranz?

  Oh, I love it.

• 38:59Nilay Patel?

  I don't know if it's any good, but I, I definitely laughed as I watched her try to explain. And I was like, it's the Westworld thing and she's on a date and she's trying to explain what a video game is to, to her date. I'm like, have you been around? Like, do people still not know what video games are in this future? It's very good. Last little Elon bit, uh, some Starlink news. First, Thomas Ricker, who lives in Europe, as you may know, uh, reviewed Starlink RV. That's a version of Starlink that you can just like take anywhere you want, as long as there's service. You can, uh, shut it off and not pay the monthly fee and then turn it on again when you're on the road. The trade-off is that you are lower in priority for bandwidth than anyone else. Thomas loved it. He was like mostly on beaches. He had a clear view of the sky, which is very important for Starlink. And he said it was faster than whatever cell internet

• 39:45Nilay Patel?

  options that he had wherever he was. And he did not notice the throttling. I will say two things. One, they've changed the design of the dish and they've made it worse in some ways in the original dish than I reviewed and better in some ways. So better, it's smaller and it looks cooler. The worst part is very vergecast. The my dish gets power over ethernet. So you plug the dish into the power box and you plug the power box into the wifi router and you just plug everything in and everything has power and you're off and go. One wire to each thing. This dish attaches via micro USB.

• 40:18David Pierce?

  Oh, no.

• 40:20Alex Cranz?

  That's just like a big, like falling on your face.

• 40:23Nilay Patel?

  It's a 70 foot micro USB cable that attaches to the wifi router. Did I say 70? 75 foot micro USB connector.

• 40:32David Pierce?

  You can charge your old Kindle and use your Starlink dish.

• 40:36Nilay Patel?

  What are we doing? Like, not like backwards, but also like backwards and sideways?

• 40:40Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 40:41Nilay Patel?

  To go from pure power over ethernet to not even USB C, but like, yeah, micro USB. Let's see what that is. He also said it rarely lines up properly, which is very good. So just like a confusing, but it's uses less power than my dish. Like, there's all this, there's benefits to the new dish and there's obviously trade offs. So that's good. And like I said, he had, he sent me this slack. He's like, I had a very different Starlink experience than you. And I was like, did you have any obstructions? And he was like, no, we were like on beaches.

• 41:07David Pierce?

  Well, but he also, he framed it in a way I thought was really smart, which is basically like, your experience was you were trying to replace your home internet, which is like a very high bar in terms of both reliability and speed. His, and he said this in the review, is his bar was basically awful cell service at the beach or at a music festival. And like, beating that is really easy. And that's like, that's what Starlink is trying to do here, basically, right? So they're like, even if we throttle you, even if you have some obstructions, like, you're going to get pretty good internet in places where pretty good internet is actually like a vast improvement over what you've had before. And I think Thomas might be being slightly generous in being happy with good enough internet, but like, good enough internet in a lot of places is, is a huge improvement. And I thought, like, I just think that it's a clever way of thinking about it.

• 41:52Alex Cranz?

  What happens when you're like at Burning Man and everybody's got their internet? Cause that's totally a thing that happens at Burning Man. But everybody's got their little Starlink, like, system. Won't that actually make the internet worse if everybody adopts this?

• 42:04Nilay Patel?

  Well, so this is kind of what's happening with Starlink right now in general.

• 42:08Alex Cranz?

  Okay.

• 42:09Nilay Patel?

  So I'm a proud lurker of the Starlink subreddit. And it's like, to me, it's like one of the most chill places on the entire, it's just bros helping bros.

• 42:17Alex Cranz?

  Love it.

• 42:18Nilay Patel?

  Like, everyone's just trying to solve the same problem. And they're like, should I climb this 100-foot pole with no safety equipment to install Starlink? And everyone's like, you got it, bro. Like, it's great.

• 42:28David Pierce?

  Is the top comment on every single one just like, "Trees?", question mark?

• 42:33Nilay Patel?

  There's a lot of discussion of trees and whether cutting them down or going over them is better. There's a lot of just like, you know, I'll put this in like historical context, like, the big cable companies in the United States are now lumbering giants, but they were all started by effectively cowboys.

• 42:47Alex Cranz?

  Yes.

• 42:48Nilay Patel?

  Right? Who like, wanted to help a community. And so they set up an antenna and like ran coax cable to their neighbors and they had like started a cable network. And I think that part of that story is so cool. And like, yes, now they're lumbering giants. Disclosure, Comcast and NBC Universe also are in the box media. And now we have to think about like Peacock and like whatever, the minions exist, right? But they, like even Comcast started as like this cowboy outfit. There's an element of the Starlink moment that has that cowboy energy that I think is great. And so it's just people like, they can't get internet access where they are. And they've got one tool to do it and they are overcoming whatever obstacles to figure it out. And I think that's great. They don't like me very much because I said Starlink doesn't work with trees.

• 43:32Nilay Patel?

  But I would just say like, the revealed evidence is that trees are a problem for Starlink, even in the subreddit.

• 43:40Alex Cranz?

  I ran into a woman this weekend and she uses Starlink. She does not read The Verge. It was very rude for her to say that, but it's fine. But she was like, "Yeah, I love Starlink, except for trees. Did you know that trees are really bad for Starlink?"

• 43:50David Pierce?

  And you said, "Oh."

• 43:52Alex Cranz?

  Do I?

• 43:53Nilay Patel?

  Anyhow, so like the subreddit's great. I read it all the time. But the thing that is happening right now is the cells are getting overcrowded. So Starlink divides the map into these like honeycomb grids. And that people are getting Starlinks and I can get them, there's no waitlist anymore in a lot of places. The RV has no waitlist, you just get it in a week. And the speeds are dropping. They're dropping to about 40 to 50 down. And so like, there's just a lot of, to David's point, there's a lot of justification now in that community over, I was an early adopter, I was getting like 200 down and now I'm getting 40, but it's still better than my satellite internet. And that's what you gotta keep in mind. And I think that this trade-off over- You know, Starlink is more or less self towers in space. Like, there's a physical limitation to what they can accomplish over time, even with more and more satellites.

• 44:38Nilay Patel?

  And like, whether they can pull off the whole business is like, it's running into its like, first cap of limitations, which I think is fascinating.

• 44:46David Pierce?

  Is that why Starlink is fighting with DISH? Because it wants more spectrum to solve these problems?

• 44:54Nilay Patel?

  So deeply unclear why they have chosen to fight with DISH.

• 44:59David Pierce?

  No Verge story made less sense to me this week than Starlink and DISH fighting about spectrum.

• 45:04Nilay Patel?

  And we tried, we tried real hard with this. So Starlink this week sent out an email to all its customers saying, "End this, we ask for your support in ending a lobbying campaign that makes, that threatens to make Starlink unusable for you and the vast majority of our American customers." So DISH wants to use 12 gigahertz spectrum for 5G. They have formed an alliance called the 5G for 12 gigahertz coalition. This is true. In the, the trades and Fierce Wireless, which is a trade publication, there's a great line that's like, "This is not to be confused with the 12G alliance."

• 45:41Nilay Patel?

  What's happening with you people? What's going on over there? So they formed this thing where they want to use 12 gigahertz, which the FCC has provisionally said might be interesting. So DISH is doing studies about whether it can use 12 gigahertz for 5G. And they're pushing to a place where they can do it with this coalition. SpaceX is also using that spectrum. And so they filed with the FCC where it says, "They use 12 gigahertz spectrum as workhorse frequencies to provide critical downlink services across the US. If you open that spectrum up for 5G use, customers will experience a total outage of service 74% of the time." So now DISH, which I remind you, has no 5G network, owns a ton of spectrum, has been required by the government

• 46:25Nilay Patel?

  to light up a network called Project Gen 5 SIS.

• 46:29Nilay Patel?

  That we have two Project Janna 5SIS phones. Mitchell has one and Nathan Edwards on the new senior review editors have one. We're gonna have a piece coming out, but as of yet, those phones have mostly been on AT&T's network because that's what Dish is using as its backstop, which is very funny. So even the Dish network that has launched is still just AT&T. The world's first smart 5G network remains an illusion. But Dish wants even more spectrum to take away from Starlink and Starlink's gonna fight with them. And it's like, both of these things are like, what are we even fighting about? Like, your network doesn't exist. Like, you should just build the network you have. Are you gonna convince Apple to put 12 gigahertz radios in the iPhone for 5G?

• 47:06Alex Cranz?

  No.

• 47:06Nilay Patel?

  I don't think you are. Like, I just doubt it.

• 47:09Alex Cranz?

  Especially when you have like, four customers.

• 47:12Nilay Patel?

  This is how you end up with the Motorola Edge Plus as the only supported phone. And then obviously Starlink, you know, they're already using the spectrum, but it's amazing that they've built out a service that could be threatened by a competitor as ferocious as Dish Network.

• 47:28Alex Cranz?

  I thought it was wild that the FCC like, started all this January of 2021. And it's only now, in June of 2022, that SpaceX is like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, we need that. That's ours. We need that really badly. Like, were you just not looking? Did you just not read the trades this, for the last year and a half?

• 47:51Nilay Patel?

  Well, so I think one thing that's happening here is Dish already uses 12 gigahertz for its satellite TV service. They wanna just like repopulate it and use it for 5G. Cause they have some of that spectrum. I just, like, the phone networks are like, the phones don't exist that use the spectrum. So like, where are they at? Anyway, Dish said a great line, which in the context of fighting over spectrum in space is great. "We believe coexistence is possible." Like, that's 100% what the president says after the aliens invade Earth. "We believe coexistence is possible." So we'll see. It's like, one of the funniest broadband stories in forever. Cause like, they have a network. They should just build that one. They have all of the spectrum.

• 48:32Alex Cranz?

  They can do it. I mean, they could.

• 48:34Nilay Patel?

  There'll be more Janna 5SIS coverage to come. I'm very insistent that we over-cover Project Janna 5SIS. So we're gonna do it. All right, we gotta take a break. Andy, thank you so much for joining us.

• 48:43David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 48:44Nilay Patel?

  It's good to see you, Squeeg.

• 48:46David Pierce?

  And we're gonna do Truck Talk Round 2 in a couple of weeks, so you'll be back.

• 48:49Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, you'll be back. The Lightning Review is coming up and we'll have you back for all that stuff. Okay, we're taking a break. We'll be right back.

• 48:54David Pierce?

  Squeeg, send it off.

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• 50:24Nilay Patel?

  We're back. Let's do, let's do like a little gadget lightning round to wind this up. David, you want to take us?

• 50:30David Pierce?

  Sure. So, I mean, this says something about how newsy this week was, but the biggest Verge gadget story of the week was that this was the 10 year anniversary of the Nexus Q, which makes it the 10 year anniversary of one of my all time favorite Verge photos, which is the Nexus Q being used as a doorstop in our office in New York, which I think is about as good an explanation of the Nexus Q as you will ever find.

• 50:53Nilay Patel?

  That was our office on Fifth Avenue, which was basically an apartment.

• 50:56David Pierce?

  Yeah, the bathroom was right in the center. It was awesome.

• 50:59Nilay Patel?

  It was a very strange office. I will say this, that this is one of the rare product that was killed by product reviews.

• 51:06David Pierce?

  Yeah, I think that's right.

• 51:07Nilay Patel?

  So they announced it in this weird moment. They said it was, uh, it was a music streamer. It was one of the first Google hardware devices. Andy Rubin announced it. It was like a high-end music streaming device. It was a circle, like a sphere-ish shape, and you could turn the top to change the volume. Very strange. You gotta look at a picture of it. And they gave it out to reviewers. Uh, we gave it a five out of 10. Everyone else was like, what is the point of this? It was also really expensive.

• 51:32David Pierce?

  It was $300, I think, yeah.

• 51:34Nilay Patel?

  In 2012, $300. And it didn't work with anything except Google services. So Google was like, well, that was a mistake. And they canceled the product and they killed all the services, rendering it completely useless.

• 51:46David Pierce?

  Yeah, a $300 streaming device that only works on Google Play Movies. Uh, what a surprise that that really never took off. I will say it did look very cool. The, the like sphere sitting there and when you connected all the cables, it kind of looked like that like tentacle monster from The Matrix that was always flying around. It's just, it was, it was kind of sci-fi and cool looking. And now all streaming devices are the same little like flat, pucky rectangle things. And I at least kudos to Google for doing something more interesting.

• 52:14Alex Cranz?

  I mean, visually it was cool even at that time because like Apple, Roku, everybody else was doing, like Roku was doing weird giant boxes. Apple was doing weird giant boxes. Shield, I don't think, Shield wasn't, didn't exist yet. Like, had to get it in there.

• 52:29David Pierce?

  There it is.

• 52:29Alex Cranz?

  There it is. This was, I, cause I definitely remember at the time being like, ooh, should I get one to run Plex? And I was like, no. Just immediately like, no, this won't work at all. This is a stupid idea of mine, but it looks cool. I really wanted one and I never bought it.

• 52:45David Pierce?

  And I liked, just one more note on this, then we should move on. Chris Welch wrote that story and he mentioned in it that you can kind of see some Chromecast DNA in it. And it is true, like as, as a precursor to what became the Chromecast, which is like a simpler thing that's much cheaper and has more services. It sort of makes sense. And someone responded to him on Twitter who was like, I was on the Chromecast team. There is no Chromecast DNA in this thing. We were just as surprised as everybody when it launched. They were like, do not associate us with this piece of junk. And I very much enjoyed that.

• 53:15Nilay Patel?

  That was very good. All right. We gotta talk about this GPU situation, which is like the Alex Cranz special. So for our audience of hardcore Android gamers.

• 53:26Alex Cranz?

  Your time has come. I'm trying to figure out how it's pronounced because I want to call it the Immortalists.

• 53:33David Pierce?

  I read it as Immortalis.

• 53:34Alex Cranz?

  I assume they want Immortalis, but I want to call it the Immortalists because like that's a dumb name either way.

• 53:40David Pierce?

  It also sounds like a ship, like the Immortalists is like an old timey spaceship.

• 53:45Alex Cranz?

  It's got like a lot of wood in it despite being in space.

• 53:48David Pierce?

  Exactly.

• 53:49Alex Cranz?

  Everybody wears like 18th century British naval uniforms.

• 53:53David Pierce?

  Yeah, it's like Pirates of the Caribbean in space was on the Immortalists. Like that's definitely what happened.

• 53:58Alex Cranz?

  Would watch. But so ARM has announced a new GPU. They're still doing the GPUs they do now, which is the line, it's called Mali. And this is a new GPU lineup and it's meant for big high-end phones. We'll probably see some stuff from MediaTek, Samsung around it. But the big catch here is that it does ray tracing on a tiny ARM-based GPU for your phone versus ray tracing, which we have now, which is primarily AMD kind of does it for, you know, the PS5 and the Xbox and Nvidia's doing it in its 20 and 30 series GPUs. This is the new version of it. And I suspect, I want to get really excited about it. I want

• 54:43Alex Cranz?

  to be pumped because ray tracing is, continues to be a holy grail. Like hardware-based ray tracing is a big deal. We want this because it's going to just bring really incredible visuals. But there's two kind of key components. One, developers have to develop for it and actually do it. And as we've seen in the PC gaming space and even in the console gaming space, they don't actually want to do it. Most of them are like, yeah, this is really cool. I'll do it because you paid me to do a tech demo, but I won't actually regularly put it into my games. And then the other problem is like on mobile gaming, we already have a very distinct visual language for mobile games, right? They all look kind of the same and it's kind of that flat thing.

• 55:25Alex Cranz?

  There's maybe some shadows. Why would you need a lot of ray tracing? Like, there's no effort to make photorealistic stuff on mobile gaming, apart from, like, card games.

• 55:37Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I mean, but this is like the question mark around hardcore Android gaming in general, right?

• 55:41Alex Cranz?

  And also, it's limited to Android, which makes it even worse, because most of the games are getting developed for iOS first. That's where the fun happens. My hope and dream from this is that somebody makes a really cool handheld console that can sometimes play

• 55:54Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 55:55Alex Cranz?

  the games, but is just mainly for cloud gaming. That blog will be on the page one day, I swear.

• 56:00Nilay Patel?

  I mean, but that's what's been happening right around the industry. Like, they made it now for Android phones, and maybe they'll get it in Android phones, but

• 56:07Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 56:07Nilay Patel?

  over time, this just becomes the default GPU for ARM?

• 56:11Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, I think that's like, kind of the idea, is that eventually, maybe we move away from Mali, and they start to really use Immortalis. But I don't know how quickly that's going to happen. I think this is like, a really big flashbang of like, hey, wow, cool! And then we're all going to forget about it, and then five years from now, we'll be like, oh, wow, I saw my reflection in this game.

• 56:33Nilay Patel?

  It was Immortalis.

• 56:37Nilay Patel?

  Truly, we are all Immortalis. More lightning round stuff. It feels like the "we should make cooler monitors for work-from-home" market is having a moment.

• 56:47David Pierce?

  Yes.

• 56:48Nilay Patel?

  It's like, definitely happening, right?

• 56:49Alex Cranz?

  They're finally catching up.

• 56:50David Pierce?

  Well, and there's this thing where it's like, oh, do you sit in front of the same screen for 17 hours a day? Would you like that screen to do more things and look good? Here's some products.

• 57:02David Pierce?

  It's great. I think this Samsung M8, which Cam Faulkner and our team reviewed this week, is one of those devices I have been sort of aimlessly shopping for basically all week. It's like, part TV, part monitor, doesn't do either of those things exceptionally well, but does them both better than it would if you tried to buy them both for the same price, if that makes sense. And is like, yeah, we're just getting to this place where it's like, what if your computer monitor did more stuff? And I am very interested in that world.

• 57:31Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, I think McKenna Kelly, one of our policy reporters, she was like, oh, I want this. This is what I want. I live in New York. My monitor needs to do double duty anyway. Yeah, I want to watch some TV on it and also do my work.

• 57:43Nilay Patel?

  So I buy it. It's only 32 inches. If it was 40 inches, I would like extremely buy it.

• 57:50Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 57:50Nilay Patel?

  Right. It's just like, it seems a little small.

• 57:52David Pierce?

  Do you want a 40 inch computer monitor, though?

• 57:54Nilay Patel?

  Uh, I mean, I could.

• 57:57David Pierce?

  Fair enough, yeah.

• 57:57Nilay Patel?

  My Zoom setup now is our legendary 40 inch Samsung curved TV, which has now found its true purpose is just being my display for Zoom.

• 58:07David Pierce?

  Just enveloping you in Zoom.

• 58:09Nilay Patel?

  It's great. It's, everyone kind of looks like, you know, I can see their faces. I can sit far away from the TV. Uh, I never use it to watch TV anymore. It's just a, but yeah, but then all my work happens on my actual laptop screen. I would just say at 32, it's like, ah, one tick's small. Great headline from Cam, though. The good enough of both worlds.

• 58:27David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 58:28Nilay Patel?

  Very good. But this thing looks great. I, I know one person who has one is, uh, Dieter Bohn. He definitely thinks it's the good enough of both worlds as well.

• 58:35David Pierce?

  So, okay, wait, can I ask a question about this, though? Cause my counter to this thing would be, cause the, the shtick basically is like, it works as a computer monitor, but it also runs Tizen and is a smart TV with a TV remote. And I was thinking about this and I'm like, what TV do I want to watch that I can't just make like a full screen browser window on my computer?

• 58:54Alex Cranz?

  I think it's more for like, think back to college. You're in your dorm room. You want to sit on your bed and watch all the episodes and you don't actually want to move.

• 59:02David Pierce?

  So it's, the remote is the thing, then?

• 59:04Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, I think it's the remote.

• 59:05David Pierce?

  I guess that tracks. Okay, that's fair. The webcam sucks, though. Huge mistake making a terrible webcam.

• 59:09Nilay Patel?

  The webcam being this like weird external thing that you can pogo pin on the back. I love it. I love a pogo pin. We always have the Verge's stand to pogo pin since the dawn of time.

• 59:19David Pierce?

  True.

• 59:20Nilay Patel?

  Very good. That's cool. So then the other one is from Sony and they seem, this is their in-zone monitors and they, they're like, they're in the game.

• 59:27Alex Cranz?

  You mean in the zone? You did it.

• 59:30Nilay Patel?

  And truly, that day, we were in Mortal.

• 59:37Alex Cranz?

  I've been doing this to Cam all week. It's mortalists. I refuse.

• 59:42David Pierce?

  Has Sony ever done this before? It's like, it's a lineup of, of like gaming monitors and headsets. And I have no memory of Sony like being deep in this game before, but maybe I'm missing things.

• 59:52Alex Cranz?

  I have no memory. Cam and I like try to look around for it. We have no memory of it, but we also don't want to say they've never done it before because someone will absolutely be like, actually in 1998 for two weeks.

• 1:00:04David Pierce?

  Sure. In one store in Japan. Yeah.

• 1:00:06Alex Cranz?

  But this is definitely like a significant push for them. And I think Cam's got a story coming this week. I think it'll be up Friday when you're all listening to this beautiful Vergecast episode that's kind of about why they had to do this. Cause when he went and learned about it, he was like, oh, this makes sense. Like Microsoft is out there. They're doing great in the console space. They own the cloud gaming space and they own the PC gaming space. Sony, if it doesn't, it can't like compete like Nintendo does with a bunch of weird, wacky games. It has to compete in Microsoft's land. And so, okay, let's do what we do best. Let's just make a bunch of cool gadgets and shit.

• 1:00:44Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but I gotta say 900 bucks, 27 inch 4K IPS with 144 Hz refresh rate. That's a strong spec sheet.

• 1:00:52David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Alex Cranz?

  I mean, that's, that's up there with, I had just purchased another LG GN950, which has similar specs. And I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. I kind of wish I'd waited, but it's too late now. I've got it.

• 1:01:04Nilay Patel?

  Also I'll point out it has full array local dimming with 96 zones and displays your 600. If you were, for example, to compare it with another 27 inch panel that was very expensive, you might note that it has far superior specs for far less money.

• 1:01:19Alex Cranz?

  A really, I think this is a really smart idea because Sony has gotten really good at TVs. They're oftentimes considered better than LG in the OLED TV space. Like their processing is really good. The, the visual is just really good. They, they do the local dimming really, really well. And so take all of that kind of like TV math and now apply it to monitors, which have really struggled, especially with like controls and calibration. That's a place that's a real pain point on monitors and bring that TV ease into the monitor space. Like that to me is just a smart move.

• 1:01:51David Pierce?

  This is a super interesting thing from Sony in the world of like, they want you to put your PlayStation on your desk, which I think is just like a totally different way for Sony of thinking about gaming that I think is fascinating and is like, like you were saying about Microsoft kind of owns the whole world that isn't you sitting on your couch playing games on your television. And Sony is like, needing to compete with that space because more people are spending more of their time sitting at their desk playing games. And for Sony to be like, okay, this thing works for your PC, but also like, the real magic is if you plug in your PS5 is, it's like, it's a subtle, small thing, but feels like a kind of big omission from, or a big admission from Sony, that this is like, we are in a

• 1:02:33David Pierce?

  new world where of how people play and where, and Sony needs to like, be part of that in all the ways it possibly can, which I just think is fascinating.

• 1:02:40Alex Cranz?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:02:41Nilay Patel?

  Let's end it here. The iPad Home Hub and iPad iOS 16 situation is of little consequence. At the end of the day, I think very few of our listeners are using their iPads as home hubs. Let us know if you are. If you're running your Apple HomeKit system off your iPad.

• 1:03:00Alex Cranz?

  On purpose. We need to make that, we need to make that key.

• 1:03:03Nilay Patel?

  I'm curious as to why, but here's the thing that's really interesting. So, there was some code in iOS 16 that made it seem like iPads would not be able to work as home hubs in HomeKit anymore. We run around in circles, there's a lot of reporting, whatever. Apple finally released a statement. The statement is fascinating, because Apple made a big deal about Matter at WWDC. They said Matter out loud. They put the thing on the screen. But here's the statement. "iOS 16 and iPad iOS 16 will continue to support iPad as a home hub with no loss in functionality. Alongside these releases, the Home app will introduce a new architecture for an even more efficient and reliable experience. Because iPad will not be supported as a home hub with the new architecture, users who rely on iPad for

• 1:03:44Nilay Patel?

  that purpose do not need to update the home architecture and continue enjoying all of the existing features." Now, you could just read that as it doesn't have the radios to support Matter.

• 1:03:56David Pierce?

  Right, which is what we assumed for a while is the case. Like, that's, that's definitely the simplest way to read that statement.

• 1:04:02Nilay Patel?

  But neither do most Apple TVs.

• 1:04:04David Pierce?

  Right.

• 1:04:04Nilay Patel?

  And really, only the HomePod Mini has thread radios that work in that way. So it's unclear, actually, what this new architecture is.

• 1:04:10Alex Cranz?

  But they're saying that you Matter accessories will require an Apple TV, which doesn't have the radios.

• 1:04:17Nilay Patel?

  Right. It's just unclear, like, what is this architecture? And why can't the iPad run it? Is it Matter? Is it not? What is Apple's true commitment to Matter?

• 1:04:26Alex Cranz?

  Does it matter?

• 1:04:27Nilay Patel?

  Far more up in the air now because of this statement than you would expect. Like, you would just expect, like, oh, it makes no sense to have this, like, mobile device be your home hub.

• 1:04:37Alex Cranz?

  Right.

• 1:04:38Nilay Patel?

  But the expectation was always, like, many iPads just never leave the house.

• 1:04:41Alex Cranz?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Nilay Patel?

  So it might as well be the home hub. I think that's actually what they were saying is, actually, sometimes iPads leave the house, and that's bad. So we're going to things with plugs. But they said, we have this, like, this misdirect about architectures. So I don't know, we'll see. But I'm, Matter still hasn't shipped. It's gonna save everything, you guys. It's gonna change.

• 1:05:01Alex Cranz?

  It's gonna matter.

• 1:05:02Nilay Patel?

  Soon your house will be smart. It was dumb before.

• 1:05:05David Pierce?

  And then we will be immortals.

• 1:05:07Nilay Patel?

  And then, as I walked off the field, I looked around and thought, today, we have become immortals.

• 1:05:18Nilay Patel?

  Look, it's, it's been a weird, short week of news. We're going into holiday. We should end it here. I'll say two things. One, Decoder next week, our annual grill spectacular. Last year, we interviewed the CEO of Blackstone, which, by the way, went public after we, they were on Decoder. And they're gonna do 600 million in revenue this year selling grills. Which is pretty good. This year, we got the CEO of Traeger. They're gonna do 800, 850 million in revenue selling smokers.

• 1:05:44David Pierce?

  That's the wood pellet one, right?

• 1:05:46Nilay Patel?

  That's the wood pellet smokers.

• 1:05:47David Pierce?

  People love that thing.

• 1:05:49Nilay Patel?

  That dude, Jeremy Andrus. Do you know what, what he did before he was the CEO of Traeger? He was the CEO of Skull Candy.

• 1:05:54Alex Cranz?

  Wow.

• 1:05:55Nilay Patel?

  Headphones to grills. Yeah. Crazy story.

• 1:05:58David Pierce?

  Is he your best friend in the whole world now?

• 1:06:00Nilay Patel?

  We're, like, in it now.

• 1:06:01David Pierce?

  Yeah. Give that man a Ford F-150, and it's like, he can just move into Nilay's house.

• 1:06:06Nilay Patel?

  That's coming. That's our, um, it's our 4th of July special. The Vergecast is off next week, but our show's on Netflix. Future of is on Netflix. Please go stream it. We also have a huge package called Homeland this week. It's the 20 year anniversary of the Department of Homeland Security. Lots and lots of stories, including a look at Chad Wolf, which is a fake name. But Chad Wolf was basically illegally the Secretary of Homeland Security for a long time. Sarah John dove into that. McKenna Kelly has a big piece on the Afghan refugee crisis in the United States after we withdrew from Afghanistan, which has a big Airbnb component inside of it, which is fascinating. And I interviewed the Director of Innovation for the TSA, which went pretty much how you'd expect.

• 1:06:49David Pierce?

  You talk about innovation in shoe removal?

• 1:06:51Nilay Patel?

  We innovated. He was a very nice guy. His name is Dan McCoy, but it's the TSA. Like, you can't overcome the TSA. But he was getting, they actually came to us. So all that's going on, there's even more stories in the Homeland package. Please check that out. We've spent a long time on it. It looks beautiful. It's one of those beautiful things that are published.

• 1:07:08David Pierce?

  It's gorgeous. And the stories are great. McKenna's story in particular, they're all very good. But if you're gonna start somewhere, I would start with McKenna's story. It's excellent.

• 1:07:14Nilay Patel?

  For sure. Okay, that's it. We have, we were just about to go over. Wait for it. We went over. See, it happened.

• 1:07:23David Pierce?

  So close.

• 1:07:24Nilay Patel?

  I was waiting for it. You can tweet at us. I'm at Reckless. David's at Pierce. Alex is Alex H. Krantz. Andy is at Andy Jayhawk. David's got the show on Wednesdays. What was your show this week on Wednesday?

• 1:07:36David Pierce?

  We talked about privacy implications of Roe v. Wade. We talked about why Netflix won't just tell me what to watch. And we talked a bunch about Asus laptops. And Monica made all of Asus's stupid names make sense to me. I think David gets mad about product names is gonna be a long running theme of the Wednesday Vergecast. I'm very excited about it.

• 1:07:55Nilay Patel?

  And that's how he became.

• 1:07:59Nilay Patel?

  All right, that's it. That's Vergecast. Back on.

• 1:08:06Speaker 00

  Thanks for listening to this week's show. And hey, we'd love to hear from you. Shoot us an email at [email protected]. And if you liked the show, share it with a friend. Vergecast is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today's episode was produced by me, Liam James, and our senior audio director, Andrew Marino. Our executive producer is Eleanor Donovan. That's it. We'll see you next week.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

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