The next big thing in movies is 60-year-old IMAX tech

Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey is the first feature film ever shot entirely with IMAX 70mm film cameras, which is apparently a very big deal, and why it's been harder than usual to get a ticket to see Matt Damon. And now that Spider-Man is moving onto IMAX screens, it may be even harder to get a ticket. Why is this 60-year-old technology suddenly the hottest thing in movies? The Verge's film and TV reporter Charles Pulliam-Moore joins senior reviewer Jennifer Pattison Tuohy to compare the standard and IMAX versions of The Odyssey and talk us through the difference between IMAX, LieMAX, and Infinity Vision. Further reading: Christopher Nolan’s Odyssey will be the first movie shot entirely on IMAX film Don’t screw this up, Marvel The Odyssey turned me into an IMAX believer Google just announced a major shakeup of its top AI leadership Nintendo beats earnings thanks to US tariff refunds it won’t share with gamers Bose’s upgraded QuietComfort headphones add head-tracking immersive audio Subscribe to The Verge for unlimited access to theverge.com, subscriber-exclusive newsletters, and our ad-free podcast feed. We love hearing from you! Email your questions and thoughts to [email protected] or call us at 866-VERGE11. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Welcome to The Vergecast, the flagship podcast of seven-story-high movie screens. I'm Jennifer Pattison Tuohy, The Verge's senior reviewer, and today we're talking IMAX. Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey has already been selling out IMAX theaters, and now Spider-Man: Brand New Day, which has just had the biggest box office debut ever, is expanding to IMAX 2. So it is a big week if you want to see 80-foot-tall close-ups of Tom Holland and Zendaya. But what is it about this 60-year-old technology that is suddenly the hottest thing in movies other than Matt Damon's biceps? The Verge's TV and film reporter Charles Pullimore is going to be joining me to give us the view from the top. But first, here's what's happening on The Verge today.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  This is 90 Seconds on The Verge for Thursday, August 6, 2026. Major moves are afoot among Google's AI leadership. Jeff Dean, Google DeepMind's chief scientist, is leaving to start Discovery Loop, where he'll build deeply positive AI systems. Demise Hassabis is out as leader and will become chair and Alphabet's chief scientist. DeepMind's CTO, Kuray Kavachuk-Ulu, replaces him. The Verge's Hayden Field says, "This laundry list of executive changes likely signal deeper issues within Google's AI organization, including Dean's opposition to Google's DoD contract and an overall push towards faster, more product-focused leadership."

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  Nintendo just made a bunch of money, thanks in part to a $300 million tariff refund. The company reported a 150% profit increase in its first quarter, thanks to strong game sales and a whopping big check from the US government. Despite raising prices on Switch consoles and blaming tariffs, Nintendo is keeping the refund. And it's not alone. Sony is also keeping its refunds from PlayStation price increases, and both companies are now facing lawsuits from users. Bose has announced its long-awaited second-gen Quiet Comfort headphones. The ANC models will be available for preorder on August 8 for $359 and come in some fun

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  new colors, including a gorgeous deep red rose and a vaguely urine-colored one. The second gen will feature an upgraded Aware mode and new immersive audio listening modes, including head tracking and a simulated theater-like experience. That's going to be fun while you're riding on the subway. You can read more about all of these stories at theverge.com. That's 90 Seconds on The Verge for Thursday, August 6, 2026.

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• 3:40Speaker 00

  Welcome, Charles. Thanks for joining me.

• 3:42Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to talk about The Odyssey, IMAX, but also Matt Damon.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  Yes, yay. Excellent. Okay, so let's just start right, like, 101 film school here, okay? Tell me, what specifically is IMAX other than a big screen?

• 4:02Speaker 03

  So, so, um, huge screens are obviously like a huge part of the IMAX brand, but IMAX, right? IMAX, TM, encompasses a handful of different proprietary filmmaking and projection technologies. So we're talking about the cameras that the films are shot with, we're talking about the specific kind of film that is loaded into those cameras, and then, you know, to the screen of it, we are talking specifically about a very particular kind of hard-to-build projector. Many of them are very old right now. And then we're also talking about massive, massive screens, right? We talk about, um, yes, the IMAX screen is big, and we all sort of know, we all sort of have a vague idea of what an IMAX screen looks like, but like, true IMAX, they are

• 4:46Speaker 03

  these humongous screens that are able to show films in 1.43 to 1, which is just like immersive and really sort of, if you are not specifically trying to look around the theater and you are focused on the screen, it is kind of like you're being pulled into the image, which is kind of the, the Image Max, IMAX of it all.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  Oh, I didn't know that. Okay, that makes sense. Great. Image Max. I was, yeah.

• 5:13Speaker 03

  They are one of the first maxing companies out there. Like, you know what I mean? Man, they were ahead of the curve.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  So I have to admit upfront that I am an IMAX virgin. I have never seen an IMAX movie. But quickly, why would I want to see any movie in IMAX? Like, what is the experience going to be like? You mentioned immersive, but is there anything else that's kind of really stands out about IMAX?

• 5:36Speaker 03

  Um, so you're going to get a really high-quality picture, and depending on the specific film that you're seeing, uh, seeing something at, seeing something that's shot on 70 millimeters truly can, it's hard, it's almost hard to put into words. Um, I know that we're talking about The Odyssey right now specifically, but I think the last time that there was a really big sort of public push to go see something that was shot in IMAX, at least partially, was Sinners, right? Um, and the big appeal with that film was that the scenes that were shot, it was like 15 perf, uh, 15 perforations per minute, now 70 millimeter, 70 millimeters, um, was that it lent itself to these wide expansive shots, right, of just like the country in the south, right?

• 6:21Speaker 03

  It really makes you sort of like feel what it means to have to drive through an old dirt road as you're just like trying to get somewhere. Um, and I think that when filmmakers make the choice to shoot something in IMAX, particularly if they're, ideally, there's like sort of a, an artistic motivation behind it, right? You were trying to depict something at a larger scale that's going to evoke a particular kind of feeling in the audience, right? And I think that really comes to the fore in The Odyssey. It is an epic poem, and Nolan goes out of his way to sort of present what he's crafted, much of which is done with practical effects in such a way that makes it look and feel larger than life. That's what gets me excited about IMAX. And it's not, you know, just because something's out in IMAX, it's not always, that's not

• 7:03Speaker 03

  always immediately something that's going to like catch my eye, but when you can tell that a filmmaker has intentionally worked in that format in order for, in order to like strengthen the narrative, that's kind of what I think the format's real, like, draw is.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  Well, and I mean, this is a 60-year-old technology. You mentioned, like, these old cameras. Why is it suddenly going through such a resurgence? Is it just because Christopher Nolan is doing it? Or, I mean, I know we had, was it Avatar a few years back? Couple decades, that was a big IMAX, but there hasn't been this amount of buzz. I mean, we've got Spider-Man coming out now, and, I mean, I, I was doing some research and I heard that theaters for, with true IMAX theaters were selling out like a year in advance. I mean, this isn't the era's talk, people. I mean, why, why does everyone want to go and see IMAX all of a sudden?

• 7:55Speaker 03

  I mean, I do think a lot of the popularity of the format can be attributed to not just Nolan as an individual filmmaker, but sort of what he has done to, um, draw attention to the format, right? Like, um, The Dark Knight was not entirely shot in IMAX, but there were sequences that were shot that way. And those sequences, you do get the sense that like Nolan's like, I'm going to, I'm making a grounded superhero film, right? This is sort of the beginning of that wave of like, ooh, it's moody and grim, dark and serious. But Nolan was very intentionally trying to make something that could still be a spectacle. That's become sort of common and standard in superhero films, you know, in the time since. But he was intentionally trying to be like, how can I make something that hits you in

• 8:37Speaker 03

  the face and in the feelings the same way that, um, like a splashy comic book, comic book layout can, right? And he has consistently sort of incorporated IMAX, uh, cameras and filmmaking into the bulk of his filmography over the years. You see it in The Dark Knight Rises and Interstellar, Oppenheimer, right? Over those years, right, as Nolan is becoming more and more of a celebrity director, I think as his star, you know, was on the rise, uh, the same sort of happened for IMAX, right? Um, it, he, he has played a really important role in teaching the public a lot about IMAX. Um, and I think that theater owners are thankful for it, right?

• 9:20Speaker 03

  As, as few, as few true IMAX theaters as there are out there, the fact that you have filmmakers like Christopher Nolan, uh, Denis Villeneuve, uh, Ryan Coogler out here doing things in IMAX, right? It gets people excited to go to the movie theater, and even if they aren't necessarily going to see something that's projected, um, in 70 millimeters, they're like, ooh, it's IMAX, that's fun, that's great, right? And as much as we all talk about like, oh, the movies are dead, the movies are back, part of that, part of that constant ebb and flow is, well, how many films are coming out that have sort of done a job, or done a solid job of capitalizing on the public's interest in that kind of format, right? Like Sinners, I keep bringing it back to Sinners, because that was a really big part of the marketing push.

• 10:03Speaker 03

  Um, they went so far as to give out little film, like little strips of film as like the little giveaway at certain theaters, and that's-

• 10:09Speaker 00

  Film strip, that's cool.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  But the idea, but the idea of like, in, in, in the 21st century, people are going to movie theaters and sort of marveling at a film, and then taking a little strip of it home, not the literal thing, but a facsimile of it, that really does remind you like, hey, so everything that you just saw, it's a bunch of images on some film, and it's, you know, being projected real fast, and that becomes a moving image, right? Like, that's, that's cool, right? Like, I think, I think that that's something that filmmakers like Nolan have been trying to advocate for, for the general public, like a deeper understanding of and appreciation for film as an art form and what all goes into it. Um, which is, I think, really kind of all culminating in The Odyssey in a really sort

• 10:54Speaker 03

  of like big, bombastic way that everyone can kind of recognize as being like a success, you know?

• 11:00Speaker 00

  So this is very much more like about the art form then like it's and Nolan is notoriously a Luddite, right? He doesn't use technology at all. He doesn't have a smartphone or anything. I think no email. I think I was, people print out his emails and give them to him. I saw.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  So was this kind of part, is this almost like a musician letting, releasing all their albums only on vinyl? Is it like going back to the kind of core of filmmaking plus taking advantage of this huge screen element? So like, you know, because it sounds like shooting in this format, especially the 70 millimeter IMAX as opposed to, I guess there's two types of IMAX. You can see the 70 millimeter or there's like digital. Is that right?

• 11:44Speaker 03

  So it's, we can get into that.

• 11:47Speaker 00

  Okay. So, but it sounds like it's a real pain to do the 70 millimeter. And this is why this is the first movie ever to have done it entirely. So what, you know, what's, why would he choose to do something that's this hard?

• 11:58Speaker 03

  So I think part of it is the challenge, right? I think that Christopher Nolan, you know, he's not a spring chicken anymore. He has sort of more than demonstrated his bona fides. And at this point in his career, he's like, what does me working at the height of my powers look like exactly? Right? I was sort of proven that I am a capable visual storyteller. We can debate as to whether or not he's particularly great at writing certain types of characters, women in particular, right? But he's like, in as much as I am a filmmaker who puts butts in theaters to see gorgeous tableaus just sort of like exploding all around you. How can I do that in a way that really sort of like challenges me to like step my game up? And I think that shooting in 70 millimeter is kind of like, I don't

• 12:42Speaker 03

  want to say his dream situation, but it's kind of, it's stacked with all of these kinds of challenges that are surmountable, right? They can be worked around, but it's going to take, it took a lot of technical know-how and just sort of faith and money, right?

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  But like, once you see the Odyssey and take a beat to sort of look into what all it took to put it together, it's like, oh, like that is, and it is impressive, right? Like there, there is a thing, there is a reason that people do not shoot on IMAX like this beyond just like the expensiveness of it. Cameras are heavy, right? They're really big. They're really big and you really can't, you're not going to get a lot of dynamic action shots because you can't run with that thing, right? You, it's not going to work. They're loud, right? They make a whole hell of a lot of noise. And one of the cool things about, about Nolan's production process on this, he had to like wrap or outfit the cameras in blimps, right? In order to muffle the sound, right? So that he could actually do dialogue,

• 13:40Speaker 03

  right? A lot of Nolan's previous films that feature, that were shot with IMAX, right? Those are like the big loud scenes, right? It's not necessarily like a quiet intimate moment, but for this, because the entire thing is shot on IMAX and a lot of this is, you know, quiet asides, you know, in the throne room while there's someone hiding in the shadows. You need, had to do all this to the camera, but because it was covered in all this muffling, this muffling like exterior, you have to put special mirrors on it so that everyone can get like their eye lines, right? And it's kind of like, it didn't have to be this complicated.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  Very complicated.

• 14:15Speaker 03

  It did not have to be this complicated, but you listen to, you listen to or watch interviews with any of the members of the cast and you can see that they were unaccustomed to working like this, right? But how to put, men fascinated by it and really excited about like, oh my goodness, like, why are we doing it like this? I love it, but like, tell me more about how that works. I think that that's a big part of why people are really like glomming onto this.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  What would be the difference between seeing this in a 70 millimeter IMAX, of which there are apparently only 40 in the entire world or 41 or something versus seeing it in a digital, is it digital IMAX or?

• 14:56Speaker 03

  The biggest immediate difference between real IMAX and limax, as people like to call it, it is the, I don't think that's fair, but.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  That's not the official name then?

• 15:07Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no. But I think the biggest, the biggest difference is literally just the aspect ratio of the screen. It is that tall, tall 1.43 to one versus, I don't know the, it's not a 16 by nine for like, for the widescreen IMAX, but it's something closer to that. Wider and bigger than what you would get in a regular screen, like in a regular theater, but it is missing some of the visual information that you would get in a true IMAX. I, in my mind, there's like three tiers. There's like true IMAX and then like the IMAX we all kind of have access to. And then there's just like a regular screening. All three are great, right? Like you're going to, I think you would have an enjoyable experience at all of them.

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• 17:40Speaker 00

  So you mentioned, we mentioned earlier that there's only like 40 theaters worldwide that can show the 70 millimeter IMAX movies.

• 17:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  Why only 40? Like, can they not build more projectors? I mean, it sounds like the ones that they're using now are like half a century old. So why, why is this, why is this limitation? Is this like, is this a marketing ploy? Or can we see more, see more of these movie theaters?

• 18:07Speaker 03

  Jen, like you've kind of answered it. They just don't have anymore.

• 18:12Speaker 00

  But it's the modern day. Can't they build more?

• 18:14Speaker 03

  So, so the thing is like, it's actually sort of tragic and fascinating at the same time, right? The vast majority of these projectors were built 50 years ago, right? And the ones that they are, the ones that are still being used right now, they have just been maintained and retrofitted to the best of IMAX's ability. One of the main reasons that they haven't been able to produce new ones, could you think to yourself, it's 2026, just like crack open one of the ones you have and build one. But part of the issue is, one, they're very delicate. You crack it open, it's going to be hard to fix. Two, a lot of the, the original blueprints for how to manufacture these are gone. IMAX did not do, in the same way, a lot of, a lot of companies just do not keep great records. IMAX does not have a lot of

• 18:56Speaker 03

  the original plans as to how to put these things together. That compounded with the fact that there has been an industry, like an industry-wide shift away from film, more towards digital projectors.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  So people haven't got the institutional knowledge.

• 19:09Speaker 03

  People don't have the understanding of how to build these things and the parts manufacturers, right? That once would have been able to build the parts, either they have gone out of business or they have pivoted into other industries, right? Just in order to stay alive. So all of this has added up to IMAX being like, oh my God, I'm sorry you guys, we simply can't build anymore. Is that true? Question mark? Maybe. I feel like, I feel like if, if, if IMAX were really to sort of like get down to brass tacks and be like, look, the people want more of these projectors. We need them. They could figure it out, I think, probably, right? But again, that would take a lot of R and D on their part, right? You have to weigh how much money actually goes into this versus how many are

• 19:52Speaker 03

  going to get out of them. And then whether or not that investment is actually going to pay off for IMAX. You know, their CEO has talked about, yeah, it doesn't really make sense for us financially to install these into, we can't really build, you know, 2,000 more of these just from a technical perspective, but also getting them into theaters is hard, right? In order for, so there's the projector side of things, right? We were talking earlier about you needing a massive screen. A lot of theaters don't have the space for those kinds of screens. They would then have to undergo a construction process to build an auditorium that could actually house it. That's money that the movie theater would need to put up and movie theaters are already, right? The like, the margins on those profits are already so thin, that's them taking a cut out of their film, like

• 20:33Speaker 03

  out of their money rather. So it's like, all of that makes it easy to understand why the company is like, yeah, we don't really have anymore. Maybe you just want to get on a plane and go find one of the ones we have, right?

• 20:44Speaker 00

  That makes that an expensive movie night out.

• 20:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think that like, as time goes on, right? I don't know that, I don't know that like every film isn't going to be shot in IMAX, right? Like.

• 20:56Speaker 00

  Well, that's also the problem, right? There, there aren't many of these. Can they make more of the cameras as well or no?

• 21:01Speaker 03

  So I think, yes, I think they can build more of the cameras. Nolan actually was working with a specific kind of IMAX camera. I think it's called the Keeley camera. It's named for one of IMAX's co-founders. But the thing is, the vast majority of filmmakers still aren't going to be working in IMAX, right? Especially not 70 millimeter IMAX. Again, like Christopher Nolan has quite a bit of sway and quite a bit of pull in the industry and the ability to, you know, drum up the finances to be able to pull this kind of stuff off. That's not always going to be the case. And just because a theater, or rather, just because a film is big, doesn't necessarily mean that that's going to get people to flock to the theaters, which is another reason that I think that IMAX has been like, ah, we'll think about it. We'll think about it. I imagine in the next 20 years, maybe they'll roll out like two more, maybe. And it'll be like.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  Two decades and we might get two more.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  But we'll see.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  You actually wrote about, so you've seen it both ways, right? You've seen standard format and IMAX.

• 21:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 21:59Speaker 00

  Are you going to miss out by seeing? Just seen The Odyssey on a standard screen. Like, how was your experience between the two?

• 22:06Speaker 03

  So.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  Spoilers, by the way. Spoilers.

• 22:09Speaker 03

  I'm so sorry for spoiling details from this epic poem that is thousands of years.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  How many thousands of years old? But just spoiler alert.

• 22:16Speaker 03

  But yes, right? Odysseus and his men, they get past the whirlpool and they're like, we're good. Oh, my goodness. And then a monster arm just reaches down. Now, I went into the theater expecting it, but I was really hoping to get like a better look at like what Nolan's silhouette looks like, right? Because as much magic is present in the film, it's few and far between. And those moments are impressive and interesting. But it's always like, okay, we've seen, we've seen the Cyclops and we've seen the giants and we've seen Cersei do her thing. But like, what do the, what do the other beasts look like? And when I saw the film the first time on regular 35 millimeter screening, you see, you see a couple of Scylla's tendrils, tentacles, arms.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, just little bits.

• 22:56Speaker 03

  You see a couple, yeah, you see a couple of them. And I was like, huh, that was cool. But I left the theater, as much as I loved the film the first time I saw it, I was like, there was something, there's just something that just didn't, it's not that it didn't sit right with me, but I felt like something was missing. That's so odd. And I thought, was it a creative choice to sort of be like Odysseus and his men, or rather Odysseus and his men, because Odysseus knows what's going to happen at that point. But we're supposed to sort of be with them in the sense that they're unaware of what's going on around them and they're just kind of listless.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:25Speaker 03

  Saw the film a second time and it's like, oh, no, there she is, right?

• 23:28Speaker 00

  So in IMAX, you could actually see her?

• 23:30Speaker 03

  Right. And this was not, this was not the 70 millimeter. This was just regular IMAX. And there was, I, there was more, right? You see more of the creature's form. You see that she scuttles back into a hole like a hermit crab. And it's like, oh, like, that's like, that little, that little bit of detail. I don't want to say would have fundamentally changed my viewing experience, but it made me like, I was like, oh, so it's not that you weren't going for subtlety, it's just not there, right? And that is like one of the drawbacks to shooting in 70 millimeter, right? The vast majority of people are not going to be able to see your film. There's been some debate online as to whether or not Nolan thinks of 70 millimeters as the way that the film is in like, meant to be seen.

• 24:15Speaker 03

  But there is a version of the film that has more going on in it visually, more visual information that you're just not getting access to. If you see it at one of these other formats, which there's a debate as to whether or not that's like, oh, like, there's a premium on seeing the film in its full form, right? Like, there's already, to bring it back to the movie theater economics of it all, like, that's also part of, that's a factor into how people engage with this kind of stuff. IMAX tickets are much more expensive, right? And I'm kind of like, well, hmm, do I want to pay more for the ticket? Like, why aren't all the, why aren't all the tickets the same, exactly at the same time of the day? Yeah.

• 24:53Speaker 00

  So if you, if you have the choice, though, you should see it in IMAX?

• 24:58Speaker 03

  I think so, right? I, I, I, I'm of the opinion that like, if you have the ability to get to the theater and get a reservation, why not, right?

• 25:08Speaker 00

  Can you? Is that even possible now?

• 25:10Speaker 03

  It depends on where you live, right? Who you know, if you're willing to buy some aftermarket tickets, like if you're willing.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  This is crazy.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  It's, it's, which is, it is kind of wild, right? And that, I think, I think.

• 25:21Speaker 00

  And it's exciting.

• 25:22Speaker 03

  It's exciting, right? Like, all the, all the film bros and cinephiles are just like, this is our moment. Oh, my goodness, we did it. Everyone's talking about film formats, right? And I, I think that's cool, right? I think that something else that this kind of film and films like it are doing are getting people to appreciate that, yeah, like seeing a film in one of these larger formats can be a very different kind of very fun, enjoyable experience that like, maybe that's something that you want to do more, right? We talk so much about what can theaters do to get more people to see films. I don't necessarily know that screen big, people come is going to, is going to be the, I don't think that that's necessarily an equation that the industry can rely on.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  But I do think that, just to focus more on the theater goers, I think that the movie theater, rather, the movie theater experience can be something that is fundamentally different than watching something in your home.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  What we're seeing now is some, some studios moving towards this specifically Disney. Now they're hyping up something called Infinity Vision. And from the look on your face, I can tell this is perhaps not IMAX 70 millimeter. Can you tell me a bit about what this is? And is this something, this is for the new Avengers, I guess? And this is something that's going to bring us all back to the movie theaters?

• 26:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So whereas IMAX refers to a very specific set of proprietary technologies, right? The film make of the cameras and the projectors. Infinity Vision, very clever, is a set of standards, right? A set of Marvel approved or Disney approved standards that theaters have to adhere to in order to be able to say that a screening is being shown in Infinity Vision. But these are all things that like a theater can tweak, right? It doesn't actually have anything to do with the way that the movie itself was shot, or the way that the movie is being projected. That's more just sort of like, if you do A, B, C, X, Y, Z, then we can slap something on this. I don't know or think that the Infinity Vision screenings are coming at like a premium price,

• 27:23Speaker 03

  but it is that kind of thing where you put it in the commercials, people talk about it, right? They're like, ooh, I saw an Infinity Vision. And I don't know what that is exactly, but it kind of sounds a little bit like Vista Vision, which is a very specific kind of way of shooting, right? Films. And I think that for your average consumer, like, it's like, it's the kind of thing that might get their, their brain tickled a little bit. Will it sell tickets to Avengers Doomsday? Forgot the name for a second.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Avengers Doomsday. Easy to do. They kind of all.

• 27:54Speaker 03

  Avengers, Avengers Doomsday is going to make money regardless, right? I talk about this online all the time. As much as people like to say, nobody even watches superhero movies anymore. Maybe those box offices beg to differ.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  You nailed it. You nailed it. Thank you, Charles.

• 28:09Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  That's it for today. As always, we love to hear from you. Email us at [email protected] or call the hotline 866-VERGE11. To support what we do and get ad free podcasts, go to theverge.com/subscribe. The Vergecast is produced by Josh Kahas, Eric Gomez, Brandon Kiefer, and Travis Larchuk. See you next time. Matt Damon forever.

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