Pod Insights The Vergecast Solo Acts: Madison Karrh on her adventure puzzle game 'Birth' About this episode On episode three of our Solo Acts miniseries, Ashley Esqueda chats with Madison Karrh, an indie game developer who launched her most recent game Birth a few weeks ago. Birth is an adventure puzzle game about constructing a creature from spare bones & organs found around the city in order to quell your loneliness. Madison explains the challenges of making an entire game on your own and why that path is so important to her.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:26 Alex Cranz? Welcome to The Vergecast, the flagship podcast of playing really good independent games on the Steam Deck. It's my personal favorite. I'm your friend, Alex Cranz, and today we're going to have a new episode of our Solo Axe mini-series, which features interviews from people who are working independently to create great things on the internet. And every Monday on The Vergecast, our friend Ashley Iskada is curating and hosting these interviews and sharing with us what she's learned. And Ashley is here right now. Hello, Ashley.
0:53 Speaker 02 Hi.
0:54 Alex Cranz? You've been working on a really cool episode, it sounds like, all about video games, all about a video game.
1:01 Speaker 02 A video game. Well, a video game developer.
1:03 Alex Cranz? Okay.
1:03 Speaker 02 I love video games and I love indie games. The joy, the thrill of discovering a cool indie game is just, there's nothing else like it. And so I am talking today to solo game developer Madison Carr.
1:18 Alex Cranz? Well, why Madison?
1:20 Speaker 02 I first met her last year at Summer Game Fest in June. I was immediately drawn to her game, which is called Birth.
1:34 Alex Cranz? What's Birth about?
1:36 Speaker 02 Birth is a point-and-click adventure puzzle game. You've got to make a friend, basically, out of spare bones and organs you find around this very strange city. Because you're lonely. It's a game about loneliness.
1:49 Alex Cranz? Okay.
1:50 Speaker 02 And it's all hand-drawn. Madison draws, she draws everything, draws everything herself, she does everything herself. And it has this very kind of organic, dreamlike quality to it. And to me, it's just so creepy and so beautiful. Like, it's a Frankenstein's monster thing, but in a good way.
2:05 Alex Cranz? Well, I personally am very much looking forward to hearing more of your conversation with Madison.
2:15 Speaker 02 Hi Madison, thank you for coming on the show.
2:17 Speaker 03 Hi Ashley, thank you so much for having me.
2:20 Speaker 02 I've given a very broad description of birth, but Madison, do you mind explaining to the listeners in a little more detail what kind of game birth is?
2:30 Speaker 03 Sure, yes. Birth is a puzzle game about living alone in a large city. It was inspired by my move to Chicago at the very beginning of the pandemic and living alone in a tiny studio apartment. And in order to quell your loneliness in birth, you have decided to construct a creature from spare bones and organs that you find while traversing the new city that you've moved to.
2:54 Speaker 02 I am very curious about your journey as a solo game developer, because it's a very interesting path that many people like to think that they could attempt or that they are interested in attempting. And I want to hear a little bit about how that got started for you. So when did you start making games? And why did you start making games?
3:15 Speaker 03 I got into games via playing the Rusty Light games and realizing that, I think, seeing something that's just art that you're clicking around on, that felt very accessible. And I just had a very strong desire to try to make something similar. I'm a programmer by trade, and so that part came easy, learning the C sharp. It's the art that I did not have a ton of experience in. And so I just made it my New Year's resolution one year to draw every day and try to get better. My first game is very rough in terms of, I definitely was was learning as I made stuff. And there's a beauty in not knowing how little you know. Therefore, you're okay with releasing something. So my first game that I ever made
3:59 Speaker 03 definitely just came from blissful ignorance of thinking that something was was better than it was, I think, and not being embarrassed to show off what you made. Yeah, so that was in 2018 that I started, maybe late 2017. And I was working a full-time job at a financial software, which was very boring. And so it was a lot of early mornings and late nights. And I think it was just really Obsession of starting making something and seeing something on the screen that wasn't there before. And you made it. And that was just a very addictive thing, I think. And that like kept me coming back every day, every morning, wanting to work on it. And so that was through 2020, early 2021, I got funding from Wings and then was able to quit my full-time job.
4:43 Speaker 03 And so now I work on my stuff full-time, which is amazing.
4:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, this is you're a full-time solo game developer. This is your day job now. You made it your day job, which is the that's the dream, right? You're living the dream.
4:56 Speaker 03 Absolutely. It feels like a dream for sure.
4:58 Speaker 02 So to be clear to everybody, you mentioned the art, you're programmer by trade. Everything in this game is made by you.
5:07 Speaker 03 Yes, yes, that is true.
5:08 Speaker 02 So what tools you mentioned C sharp. What other tools do you use? What are your preferred tools of your trade?
5:15 Speaker 03 Yes, so I use Unity as a game engine, program in C sharp. And then I use Clip Studio, Clip Studio Paint for drawing. And that's only because I bought a Wacom tablet and it came with a subscription to Clip Studio. And it's just what I learned on and I'm afraid of change. So I haven't switched yet, but I've looked into Procreate a little bit because it seems really fun. And then just notebooks in terms of like idea, making sure that I have something to write to write down.
5:42 Speaker 02 Sketching things out. How long did it take you to make Birth from start to finish?
5:46 Speaker 03 Birth took 18 months, I think a year and a half. And that was the longest I'd worked on something. And that I think most of that time was a surprise just because I ended up pushing the release date. It was supposed to come out a few months ago. But doing the events, going to Summer Games Fest where we met and then Gamescom and other events throughout the year. That takes a lot of it takes a lot of time to do the PR part of making a game. So there's the making the game, which is fun because you get to sit at your desk, you get to be quiet. And then there's the PR and like showing people the game and hoping that they like it.
6:19 Speaker 02 Now, is that something that required you to step out of your comfort zone? Are you more of an introvert? Do you, were you excited to get out there? And really, I mean, obviously, you want to show off the thing you made.
6:29 Speaker 03 Yeah, I definitely fall towards the more introverted side of the spectrum. I think that's the only way that you can make a game on your own is if you're comfortable living a lot of your life by yourself. If you're comfortable sitting at your desk in silence, which I think could be said for a lot of creative crafts. There's two parts. There's going out and talking and being social, and that can be draining as an introvert. There's also the fact that birth is so extremely personal and close to me that it feels a little embarrassing to talk about in that way. And I am so thankful that so many people resonated with the premise of birth, of living alone in a tiny studio, especially after the pandemic. Not that I want anyone to feel lonely, and I would love for everyone to have their person.
7:11 Speaker 03 But yeah, there, I think that part was a little weird to talk about, just because it was basically like me being like, hi, I was so lonely that I had to make a game about it. Which is like, wow, you really care about it. You really, really care. You really were lonely. So I think that's part of it, too, is the vulnerability of saying like, hi, I put my whole heart into this, and I hope that's enough. I hope that's enough for you. Also, really, just like a very humbling experience to having people play it and give you compliments about it and, and tell you that it resonates with you is just like, I don't know. It just made me feel like my heart was going to explode the, the whole time.
7:47 Speaker 02 I, I would imagine there is something cathartic or validating about hearing the interpretation of the gameplay from people who did not build it and did not have that very close connection. Because the idea of loneliness is very universal, right? Or the feeling of not having those resources, those friendship circles, and everybody collectively, it's very interesting that you were working on this game, and then the pandemic hit. And it's very much a reflection of, everybody got that experience, really, to some extent. And so it's, it's interesting that there is that shared loneliness. There's an understanding there that maybe, I don't know, was there before for a lot of people?
8:32 Speaker 03 Absolutely. I do think birth is coming out at a good time in terms of, of course, there's never a good time for everyone to be spending so much time in their apartments. But I do think that that did form a more universal or a greater percentage of humans that had had experience with that, where before I don't know, it was a lot easier to mask loneliness and a lot easier to go out and spend time with people in order to cover that up. So I think you're right, that I think the pandemic made it a little bit more relevant.
9:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, I would argue a lot more relevant, so much more relevant. So walk me through what it is like on a typical day for you as a solo game dev. Do you impose crunch on yourself? Like, what is, what is your process?
9:13 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's kind of weird because crunch seems so negative when someone's working on someone else's game, when someone's making a game for a different studio. But when you're working on your own thing, it feels more like an obsession and there's more of a, I don't know, romanticized vision of it, I guess. I don't think crunch should ever be romanticized. But I, I am just so obsessed with making things that I do spend, I would say, majority of my weekdays are spent sitting at my desk and it does not feel like work. So my typical schedule is I wake up between six to eight, depending on how I'm feeling, I guess. And
9:45 Speaker 02 How late you were coding the night before.
9:47 Speaker 03 Yeah. Make coffee, sit down at my desk. And for the most part, when you're working on your own, I think there's this beauty of being able to come up with an idea and then implement it then in that moment. And so there's like a lot of, each day feels like there is this chance for amazing things to happen because you don't have to have permission from someone else. There's no red tape in terms of like getting someone's opinion or getting someone's approval to put something in the game. And so a lot of times I'm thinking of things that day and can implement them within like hours. And so it typically depends, but usually I am drawing and programming in the same day. The way that I work is, I know that there's advice that you should prototype an ugly version of your game first to know if the gameplay is fun. But I struggle with having ugly things
10:30 Speaker 03 on my screen. And so I typically draw final art from the start. I will draw like a very rough draft and then for the most part, it is like final art. So that is just the most joyful way for me to work, I think, is if I can Make something that looks really good the first time and be able to see. So that way, when I set up the physics or the programming for that object, it feels finished in that moment. Any day that I have to do audio, any day that I have to record, any amount of music is not, those are not my best days, but usually I chunk those into like, okay, these will be my audio days and then I will be done with it for the time. So usually, programming and art are my, my happy spaces and those are the two that I work on every day.
11:08 Speaker 02 I would imagine having close to final art as you're working is very motivating to be able to, to keep going. It's sort of like the, it's the carrot that keeps you kind of going for, moving forward.
11:19 Speaker 03 Yes, absolutely. I agree with you.
11:26 Speaker 02 Okay, we're going to take a break, but when we come back, we'll talk about the logistics of making your way as a solo game developer.
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12:26 Speaker 02 Okay, we're back and I have Alex Krantz with me.
12:29 Alex Cranz? I have to butt in because I have one question. How the money happen?
12:33 Speaker 02 The eternal question.
12:34 Alex Cranz? The eternal question.
12:36 Speaker 02 Well, Madison has a publisher. As an indie game developer, she is given an advance, much like a book deal. She's given an advance to make a game that she either has a working prototype of, or if she has a working relationship with a publisher, or any other solo game developer has a working relationship, a lot of times, there's an understanding that she's making her next project. This is kind of the top line idea. Go forth, make game. And then, once that advance is set in stone, it's doled out in pieces as the project meets milestones. So you can't just wallow in concept art land for 10 years.
13:14 Alex Cranz? You gotta ship something.
13:15 Speaker 02 Well, you gotta just show some progress, right? It's like, you gotta, you gotta show them something. And then, when the game comes out, publisher usually, usually sets a pricing. And then, the publisher usually wants to recoup that advance. They want to get back some of that money, or all of it. And that amount of percentage when the game launches depends on the agreement between the game developer and the publisher. So it could be 100% of an advance has to be recouped before the developer makes anything, or it could be a percentage, a split in there. And then, the developer keeps the IP. It doesn't ever belong to the publisher. So that's nice. And then, there's a publishing agreement. So there's a set period of time where the publisher is collecting on profits.
13:57 Alex Cranz? Okay. So, given kind of the economics of it, and a lot of those challenges, why does Madison go down this route, rather than going towards a more stable, kind of consistently lucrative thing, like as a AAA game developer?
14:12 Speaker 02 That is a great question, and one she answered. So let's take a listen.
14:16 Speaker 03 So I think there, obviously, is a lot of safety in having a corporate job. And making the decision to quit my job in 2021 was very scary. And it was not like something that, that was easy at all. And, and I feel like for the first few months, I was just terrified all the time of like, have I made a terrible financial decision? Because then you're also in charge of taxes. There's a lot more than just like, how big can the number be? You know, what is the number I need per month? I had no idea how hard it was going to be to do your taxes when you are not having a W.
14:46 Speaker 02 Yes, it is hard.
14:47 Speaker 03 It's terrible. It's terrible. And then health insurance, you have to figure that out. There's a lot more than just choosing salary, you know, based on on that number. And also just from a mental health perspective of having that safety net. But I think in terms of, and not to be so extremely philosophical, but the way that I will measure my life at the end of it is, how well did I love my partner? And how many works have I created that I'm proud of? And working at a studio, making someone else's games, obviously, that's a much easier and safer feeling life to have. But there is a direct limitation on how many of your own things you get to make. So it's definitely scarier to be on your own.
15:30 Speaker 03 But I think it's worth it if you have that obsession with your own creative work and getting better. But I definitely see how people could want to just stay at a at a job because it's safe and that's good. And I, my best friend, she will work corporate forever. And she she lives a very nice, a nice, safe, easy life. And I'm happy for her, but that is just not what I what I want. It's hard to hard to live a creative life, I think.
15:52 Speaker 02 So Birth is a game about loneliness. And a pandemic happened in the middle of it. And one of the biggest parts of the indie game dev community is those connections between other indie game devs. And obviously, you know, conventions and other networking opportunities were not available for a big chunk of Birth's development. How did you personally pivot during the pandemic? And did you find that your choices were different or the same as the rest of the game dev community? Were there still, you know, masked up outdoor game jams going on? Like, what did you find happened in the community at large? And then what was your individual response to the pandemic?
16:36 Speaker 03 Yeah, so I think mine might be a little bit different because I feel like my first two games were so small and I did not go to any shows. So Birth is the first game that I'm showing and taking out into the world. And so to me, it felt like as the pandemic was, as restrictions were being lifted, it was like right when I was like ready to show Birth. And so Summer Games Fest, that was like a lot of the, a lot of people's first events back after the pandemic. And that was my first time ever showing a game ever. And it just so happened to be Birth, and luckily it was like really good timing. And so for me, it almost felt like the pandemic kind of, maybe I would have shown my second game somewhere, but I'm kind of glad that I didn't because I'm like very happy that Birth was my first one that is kind of getting any amount of recognition.
17:20 Speaker 03 Just because of, I think as creators, we are most proud of our latest work. And you can look at something you made a year ago and think, oh no, that's terrible. I would have done so many things differently if I was making it now. So for me, there wasn't a huge difference. I did love coming into showcases. That is a brand new thing for me. So that was like very, very fun. And I'm glad that it lined up with everyone's excitement to kind of get back into things. So I do think we are moving more towards having more online stuff. I hope that's something that happens throughout, you know, even as restrictions get lifted. I do hope that that stays because I think that's a very accessible way for humans to be involved in things when they can't afford to go to shows because they're expensive and...
18:03 Speaker 02 Or physically can't.
18:04 Speaker 03 Yes, right.
18:05 Speaker 02 The indie game space, it has never been harder to discover certain indie games. Like discoverability because of the proliferation, just the absolute mountain of games that are available on many different platforms and storefronts. It makes it hard for any indie game developer, whether you're a solo game developer or studio, to be discovered. Hopefully, products like the Steam Deck seem to be helping. I am really curious about how you have seen discoverability within the space change since you started game dev.
18:44 Speaker 03 Yeah, so I think that when I started, I also didn't realize how small the industry felt. And so it feels really big from the outside, but there's, it seems like there's so many tie-ins between most of the bigger games, for sure. I think your point about the Steam Deck helping discoverability is really important because porting is hard. And so you... Don't get to see a lot of those niche indie games on consoles that maybe do have a little bit more curation. And so I'm glad that people are able to play weird unfinished things on Steam on their couch now. That is like, I think, the barrier to, at least for me, to playing a lot more Steam games is that I don't want to sit at my desk after I've been sitting at my desk for so long. And so having a Steam Deck has helped me
19:29 Speaker 03 play a lot more, just like smaller, smaller games. I do think you're right, though, that especially with Steam, and I know this has been discussed a lot, but there's so many games that come out on Steam. And I know that I have missed so many games that I would love to play. I know I'm missing out, and I know it's, I think about when I started, I didn't know how to tell people about my thing. And I would just put it on Steam and not, I didn't have a Twitter. I wouldn't tweet about it. I would just put it on Steam and hope that people found it. And that's just, it just doesn't work like that. And I didn't know at the time, of course, I was ignorant. And so I do think there's a lot more, I'm seeing a lot more smaller showcases pop up, which is nice. I think Day of the Devs is a great one, and that's not a small showcase by any means, of course. But I'm
20:11 Speaker 03 seeing a lot more indie is the, I guess, the word you would use for it. It's almost like indie showcases, independently run showcases. Yeah, so I think just, hopefully there, you're finding things from your community, but you definitely can't just, there's just so much chance involved with putting something on Steam and hoping that someone finds it. So I think it's really just about like following curators that you like that hopefully will hype up other indies. But it really takes people caring about indies in the indie space to like, make sure that, that as many of them get the attention that they deserve. But there's no way that they can. You know, there's so many people creating things and as indie, indie development gets more accessible, which is amazing, and we're getting way more diverse stories than we've, we've ever had. There's not enough people that can afford
20:55 Speaker 03 to talk about them and write about them.
21:00 Speaker 02 All right, let's take one more break, then I'll be back with Alex Krantz and more of my interview with Madison.
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21:53 Speaker 02 Okay, we're back. Alex is here too. Hi, Alex.
21:56 Alex Cranz? Okay, Ashley, so typically on this last act of the solo acts podcast, we get a little nerdy. We get pretty in-depth. Where are you taking us in this last act?
22:07 Speaker 02 The only place we can go, which is the future.
22:09 Alex Cranz? I love it.
22:10 Speaker 02 The future specifically of the solo game dev space. I think 15 years ago, you could make a moderately successful breakout hit as a solo or a really small game dev.
22:21 Alex Cranz? Right.
22:21 Speaker 02 And now, you know, if you do that, the opportunity to parlay it into a mid to senior level role at a mid-sized studio is not as prevalent as it used to be because all of these mid-sized studios have been snapped up by first-party developers. We've seen Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo. I mean, they're all just, they're just buying up studios. They're hoovering them like Kirby.
22:46 Speaker 02 And I wanted to know what Madison's thoughts were on the current and future landscape of small and indie game development because it's a weird place to be right now. And I was dying to get that first-person perspective from her.
23:01 Speaker 03 So I've seen the, I'm not sure exactly who had posted this, maybe Rami Asmal, about the amount of money that it takes to acquire a mid-sized studio or a larger studio and how that could fund so many indies. You know, so many indies just need sixty or seventy thousand dollars to make their game. And, you know, there's billions going around. And I think that speaks to how much money there is just in gaming in general. In terms of where it's going, what I would love to see is more people, and you know, hopefully this is just the world in general, that more task, more general tasks are automated, therefore more humans have more time for enjoyment. You know, hopefully the the general population's amount of free time goes up.
23:44 Speaker 03 And with that comes more time to enjoy games and also more time to make games. And so hopefully, as our world becomes more automated, we have more time and more games that are getting made. But I don't have a good prediction on what's going to happen to indies. I hope that I hope that self-publishing is stays as accessible as it is and that there's enough people that care about indie games. I've been shocked at how many people just care about indies since becoming one. People really care and people want indies to exist. I want indies to exist. And so hopefully, there's enough people, you know, what I like to think about, indies doing well, so solo developers doing well and feeding back into another solo developer doing well. So hopefully, there's like enough indie devs wanting other indies to survive that
24:29 Speaker 03 we all find funding somehow, but that is hard to hard to imagine happening. But that's what I hope. That's my hopeful prediction.
24:36 Speaker 02 I want to hook back to something you mentioned, which is automation. And we've seen so much in the news about ChatGPT and OpenAI and all of these other artificial intelligence apps and, you know, platforms. How do you think automation might help you as a solo game developer specifically?
24:56 Speaker 03 If it could automate any amount of the admin task that I have to do. The biz dev stuff brings me no joy. Other than that, I do think I value the human aspect of work. And I know that is a big argument for or against AI art. And I value that in my work, just because I love, for the most part, everything I get to do, everything that goes into making a game. I love that part. Maybe localization, maybe if it could, if it could localize into every single language for me, that would be amazing.
25:27 Speaker 02 That's a good one. I hadn't thought of localization, but that does seem, seem at least a good starting point. Right? And then you, you can spend maybe a little less having a translator refine a translation as opposed to doing it from scratch. Right?
25:43 Speaker 03 Absolutely.
25:44 Speaker 02 You mentioned your sort of, again, not to be macabre, but we are talking about birth here. You did mention you're like, at the end of my life, these are the things that I, I will feel good about.
25:53 Speaker 03 Yes.
25:54 Speaker 02 How do you measure success when you launch an indie game? Because obviously it is a very different metric. So when you launch birth, birthed out, how do you measure the success of this game?
26:04 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think if we were in it for money, we would be in a, there are way more efficient ways to make money for sure.
26:10 Speaker 02 You'd be programming for a hedge fund or something.
26:12 Speaker 03 Yes, absolutely right. I would be having a much more boring life for sure. Obviously, numbers matter because numbers indicate whether you can make the next game or not, or what you need to be asking for from funding or publisher next time. So numbers do matter a little bit. Those numbers are important, the same way wish list numbers are important before you launch, even if there's no guarantee. But for me, I think what has brought me joy and what makes me feel like I did the job that I set out to do is, is watching people play it. Specifically, I love watching streams of it and seeing small interactions because it's taken so many thousands of hours to make birth. And so if someone has a really good time for two hours of their life, I have to make up those thousands of hours that I spent.
26:57 Speaker 03 So I need so many people to play it and know that you're improving someone's life at least a tiny, tiny bit for it to be worth it. And so positive. Reviews help, but I really think it's seeing someone play, play through it and enjoy it. And other people can like vocalize what it makes them feel. And you, in return, are learning more about yourself or what you've created through that. Yeah. So I think it's how much joy it brings other people. That sounds really cliche and naive almost, but as long as the numbers are good and as long as it's not a flop. Yeah, it is important how much joy it brings people.
27:33 Speaker 02 And my last question is, what is your best advice for anybody who feels like they have a great game in them? Like, what is, what is your best advice there?
27:43 Speaker 03 Make it, start making stuff. It will be so bad at first. Everything that I made at the beginning was so bad. And still things that I make, sometimes I'm like, oh my God, that's atrocious that I made that. And I feel like I'm, I'm getting better every day at things. And so you just have to start. The scariest part is having total creative freedom and having no restraints whatsoever and having a blank canvas. That is really scary. What is not so scary is having a little bit of something on a canvas that you're editing a little bit. So yeah, start now. You'll wish that you, I wish that I started way earlier. I wish I had found game dev when I was like four or something. I don't know.
28:17 Speaker 02 My son's about to turn four, so I'm going to get him started.
28:20 Speaker 03 Oh, my gosh, you should.
28:21 Speaker 02 This year.
28:21 Speaker 03 Yes.
28:22 Speaker 02 Get him started immediately.
28:23 Speaker 03 A new indie game dev.
28:24 Speaker 02 Just a new one right now.
28:26 Speaker 03 Yes.
28:33 Alex Cranz? Okay, that is it for the Vergecast. Thank you so much, Ashley.
28:37 Speaker 02 Oh, it's my pleasure.
28:39 Alex Cranz? I've been having so much fun on this series with you. And we've got even more episodes of the solo act series coming. This was episode three. We have two more. So you got to tune in next Monday to hear even more about it. Ashley, what's going on next week, though?
28:52 Speaker 02 I have heard that mechanical keyboards are very popular.
28:57 Alex Cranz? Oh, my God, are they? I'm shocked.
29:00 Speaker 02 I received a telegram. And I've heard that the technology community loves mechanical keyboards. So I decided to talk to Tiny Makes Things. Tiny is a mechanical keyboard custom keycap creator.
29:15 Alex Cranz? Yes.
29:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, she makes custom keycaps.
29:17 Alex Cranz? Like the cute little ones that always like, look like food or like little characters and stuff?
29:21 Speaker 02 Yes, and she also even makes accessories for them. So talk to her and she is a very interesting person with a lot of really cool things to talk about in the, in the mechanical keyboard space. I think if you are a longtime enthusiast of mechanical keyboards, you will enjoy it. But also, if you're new to mechanical keyboards or just thinking about it, you may find her, her talk interesting.
29:43 Alex Cranz? All right, well, Vergecast listeners, please stay tuned. That's going to be next Monday, but this is all, all we've got for the show today. The show is produced by Andrew Marino and Liam James. Brooke Minter is our editorial director of audio. The Vergecast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. If you've got thoughts or feelings or feedback, you can always email us at [email protected] or you can call the hotline at 866-VERGE11. We're going to be back on Wednesday for another episode and then Neelai and I are going to be back on Friday. It's going to be a lot of fun. Until then, stay classy.
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