Pirate Radio » Dial up!

How the Hmong diaspora uses the world's most boring technology to make something weird and wonderful. Episode two of The Verge's Pirate Radio mini-series featuring Mia Sato. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:28Speaker 01

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• 0:57Nilay Patel?

  Hey, everybody. It's Sean from The Vergecast. For the next week or so, we're actually running a mini-series on the feed called Pirate Radio. It's three stories about how pirate radio continues to grow and exist. We already ran a story earlier called Outside the Wire about the United States propaganda efforts in Afghanistan. I'm here with Kevin Nguyen, our features editor. What are we doing today?

• 1:15Speaker 03

  The story's called Dial Up. It's about the Hmong people in the Midwest and the very unconventional ways they run their pirate radio stations.

• 1:22Nilay Patel?

  Very cool. Here we go.

• 1:24Speaker 03

  I'm Kevin Nguyen, features editor at The Verge. One thing about having your email address listed on a website is that you get a lot of email. I get dozens of pitches a week, but sometimes, in that deluge of mail, you find something really special. Like, there's this time I got this one subject line, "How One Asian Diaspora Is Reimagining the Conference Line." Actually, that's a terrible subject line. Hey! Sorry, just being honest. By the way, this is Mia Sato. She's a freelance writer based in Chicago, and she's the one responsible for this very bad subject line. Hello. Anyway, I opened the email, and Mia had outlined a story about how Hmong people had, for years, been using conference call lines, the most dreadfully boring technology that exists, to make something really weird and really quite wonderful.

• 2:09Speaker 04

  There are 20 calls.

• 2:12Speaker 05

  What are we listening to?

• 2:16Speaker 04

  So that was just a little bit of a radio show.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  But it kind of sounded like we were, it sounded like there were 23 listeners. Like, it kind of reminded me of like being in a conference call meeting.

• 2:27Speaker 04

  Well, you were.

• 2:29Speaker 04

  This is a really interesting kind of radio show. For one, that language you were hearing was Hmong. The Hmong people are a small ethnic group. There's just under 300,000 of them in the United States. And what makes it so interesting is that these shows, of which there are many, are all run through free conference call software.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  And do you speak Hmong?

• 3:11Speaker 04

  Not a lick.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  So wait, how did you even find these conference call radio stations?

• 3:19Speaker 04

  So I am from Wisconsin, and I think that automatically separates me from a lot of Americans in that I know who the Hmong people are. I grew up around Hmong folks. I grew up around their culture and their arts and their language. And I knew that they had really specific news needs.

• 3:37Speaker 03

  And that's because there's just like not a lot of media that's written in Hmong, right?

• 3:40Speaker 04

  Right, yeah. And the Hmong language has a very relatively short history in its written form also. They didn't have a written form of their language until about the 1950s. So when I was an intern at the Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism, I wanted to know like how they got their news. And I wasn't really getting satisfactory answers. They said that newspapers, you know, aren't really too popular. They have like Facebook groups and things like that. And then, super offhandedly, a source I was talking to mentioned the telephone radio shows. And I had no idea what he was talking about.

• 4:20Speaker 04

  Once I found out about these lines, naturally, I went to do research to see if anyone else knew about this. And lo and behold, a former professor of mine had authored a whole paper and was and currently is working on a book on Hmong media.

• 4:35Speaker 06

  My name is Lori Kito Lopez, and I'm an assistant professor of Communication Arts at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. My research is on different forms of Asian-American media. And for my research in Wisconsin, I've been looking at Hmong-American media.

• 4:51Speaker 04

  This was totally new to me. And so I sat down with her, read her research. And she had been doing extensive studies and interviews with folks, Hmong folks around the state, trying to figure out what these lines were and how they played into Hmong-American culture.

• 5:07Speaker 06

  So basically, these are 24/7 radio stations that Hmong-American people tune into just using their cellphones. So they have a conference call, and it just runs all day and all night, every day of the week. And it's set up pretty much like a radio station, where they have a host who is assigned to facilitate conversation about a certain topic every hour of the day. And they stay on a schedule so that they can know what they're going to listen to, whether it's going to be conversation about health, or Hmong culture, or religion, or just storytelling, or maybe singing traditional songs. I would say it's the most popular form of mass media in the Hmong-American community.

• 5:50Speaker 04

  Right off the bat, she said she is not aware of any other media forms like this, or people using this technology in this way. But that said, there are elements to this format that are similar in some ways to more mainstream media forms. So like, it's like podcasts or normal radio in that you use your voice to communicate to your community. But it's also kind of like citizen journalism in media, because it's participatory. So people don't just call in, they also speak back to the host. But then, that kind of sounds like a chatroom. So it's all over the place, and it's also not bound by geography. So as long as you have the phone number, you can call in from anywhere.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think the cool thing about it is that it's not necessarily illicit, but it is kind of like a form of pirate radio, right? Like, it exists to speak to a marginalized community that doesn't often get spoken to, and in this case, literally, in Hmong. And then it uses a technology in a way that it's not supposed to be used. You know, it's kind of subversive in that way.

• 6:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. And it's really on their own terms. So there's a lot of agency that's given to hosts and owners of the lines, where if you were a Hmong person and you wanted your own line tomorrow, you could figure it out, right? And you could do it. And you could find hosts amongst your friends or families and be like, "Do you want to have the Thursday at 5:00 PM slot? You can talk about whatever." So it's very led and shaped by the community for the community.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  So why do you think the conference call radio shows work specifically for Hmong people? It sounds like, at least according to Professor Lopez, that no one else is doing this.

• 7:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a really complicated question, and it has a lot of layers to it. So even within the Hmong community, it isn't for everyone. It seems like it's a lot less popular for people, say, my age, second or third generation Hmong Americans. And the community isn't monolithic, so opinions are divided, to say the least. So I would say it's hard to pin down just one reason why this format works for them, but Professor Lopez does have some ideas.

• 8:02Speaker 06

  So first, I would say that it just being an oral medium is really resonant for Hmong American people. So they have a rich oral culture, where singing songs and telling stories and communicating orally is really important. And also, there's a history of older Hmong people not being literate necessarily in English or Hmong language. And so if people's lives were really disrupted by the war, then they often didn't get to learn how to read and write. So then they come to the US, and they have a history of really communicating well orally and having a need to really listen to stories and tell stories. But then I also think that it being on their cellphones is also what made it really take off as a mass medium.

• 8:47Speaker 06

  So then, just having a cellphone, they can just turn it on, call the number, and tune in.

• 8:52Speaker 04

  So you can see the rise of these programs is really complex. And there's a mix of technological changes, wider accessibility to technology, and maybe just a few people with a really clever idea that others eventually latched on to. But I think to really understand why people are so active on these lines, you need to also understand the history of how the Hmong people came to the United States. The Hmong are an ethnic minority with origins in China and then later Southeast Asian countries like Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, and they've experienced persecution for hundreds of years. Even before I began reporting this story, I heard Hmong people refer to themselves as

• 9:37Speaker 04

  "a people without their own country." That's because they were forced to flee violence and oppressive rule over and over again. In the 1960s, United States forces recruited Hmong in Laos to help resist the spread of communism in Southeast Asia, and that conflict is called the Secret War.

• 9:55Speaker 07

  Hmong soldiers ran spy missions deep inside enemy territory, even entering China to tap telephone lines there for the CIA.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  During that, tens of thousands of Hmong men and boys were killed in combat, in addition to about 50,000 Hmong civilians killed.

• 10:10Speaker 07

  Their casualty rate was 100 times higher than that of the United States in Vietnam.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  In the years following the conflict, hundreds of thousands of Hmong people were essentially scattered around the world, and some Hmong who left their homelands came to the United States, where they settled mostly in California, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. There are some Hmong people in France and Australia, but the vast majority still live in Asia. So if you're a Hmong American and you don't live in an enclave like St. Paul, or Fresno, or Sacramento, or Milwaukee, it's likely pretty normal to not encounter another Hmong person in your day-to-day life. Basically, you have this diasporic community that is all over the world with a rich oral culture and innovative, easy-to-access, semi-digital spaces that they've basically made for themselves, and they've been doing this for years.

• 11:21Speaker 08

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• 12:19Speaker 03

  So you talked to some of these DJs, right?

• 12:22Speaker 04

  I did, yes.

• 12:24Speaker 03

  And like, I guess what is it like to run one of these lines?

• 12:26Speaker 04

  So, these people are really invested in them, and they spend a lot of time running them, organizing them, keeping things running smoothly. And many of the hosts and callers I spoke to also described really meaningful friendships they've formed through the lines. The same way that you and I might talk about internet friends who you know in some sort of removed or isolated context, but you might never meet them in real life. But that said, they're still your friend and you still share part of your life with them. One person connected to the lines that I spoke to was Mi Vang. She is 53, she lives in St. Paul, Minnesota, and she is prolific and beloved by her listeners.

• 13:09Speaker 11

  I don't have time to volunteer outside of home to my community. And by hosting my own show in the telephone conference, that's my community work to my people. That's my volunteer work to my community.

• 13:22Speaker 04

  She hosted shows for about a decade. Earlier this year, she finally quit hosting. She got too busy with other things. But her shows mostly focused on relationships, personal growth, and especially cooking.

• 13:34Speaker 11

  Teaching people cooking on air. So they would come and listen to me and then they can go home, take my recipe and cook at their home. And I also talked about multiple subjects of self-improvement, ranging from helping different children or being a mother or romantic relationships or any kind of relationship with people or just keeping out of your house, cleaning, anything self-improvement I talked about on air.

• 13:59Speaker 04

  Listeners loved her cooking shows. She said that throughout the years, they've sent her all sorts of gifts in the mail after hearing her talk through recipes on air. And they would send her like dry foods and kitchen utensils, like pasta machines and traditional Hmong accessories. And one even sent her money when her son graduated high school, which I thought was really funny. Wow, that's amazing.

• 14:22Speaker 11

  Hmong people traditionally were not as open talking about relationships in general or romantic relationships in general. And romantic relationships is a topic that I'm very passionate about. So I was amazed when I first called in and talked to them. I was amazed how much we have changed and able to discuss such topics publicly, openly.

• 14:48Speaker 04

  One of the stories of hers that stuck with me the most was about Mother's Day and Father's Day on the lines.

• 14:54Speaker 11

  Mother's Day, Father's Day celebration. We didn't have those back in Laos.

• 15:00Speaker 04

  Hmong culture traditionally doesn't have many holidays and Mother's Day and Father's Day were something that Hmong refugees new to the United States had to learn when they first came here. So the idea of having a holiday dedicated to outwardly expressing love and gratitude to your parents was a new thing for them.

• 15:18Speaker 11

  We did not have a social opportunity to appreciate our mom and dad. And then they die and then this telephone conference become available. And we have the chance to socially let the world know how we feel about our mom and dad.

• 15:34Speaker 04

  A lot of Hmong folks that I spoke to, they were like, we never said, like, I love you. We showed our love through actions and by being, you know, good children. And our parents showed their love through taking care of us. But that verbal exchange was just not part of their traditional culture.

• 15:54Speaker 11

  The first few seasons, people were just crying, crying while they delivered their message to their mom or dad on Mother's Day and Father's Day.

• 16:03Speaker 04

  And back in June, right around Father's Day, I got the chance to hear what she was talking about. So it's a Friday before Father's Day, and I call in right at 6:00 PM. The show is supposed to go from 6:00 to 8:00. There are about 20 callers on the line when I initially call in, and they're all there to listen and share what Father's Day means to them, or tell stories about their dad.

• 16:28Speaker 11

  Okay, Mia, are you here? If you're here, so you come and say hello to everybody.

• 16:34Speaker 04

  Look, you are now unmuted.

• 16:35Speaker 11

  Hello?

• 16:36Speaker 04

  So I introduce myself on the line, let them know who I am and what I'm doing. And they know that I don't speak Hmong. So a few of the callers on the line spoke English and translated for me here and there, or shared their stories about their dad in English.

• 16:51Speaker 12

  I would like to talk about my father. So because Father's Day is this Sunday.

• 16:59Speaker 04

  One woman by talked about this being her first Father's Day after her dad died last fall.

• 17:05Speaker 12

  For us that doesn't have a father anymore, when that day comes, you don't know where to go. So you could go to the cemetery and bring him flowers, but it's not, it's not like when he is here that you can see him and talk to him, or even just be here visiting him. So to me, Father's Day is a day that I do cherish and I will always remember, even though he's no longer here. I think that I'll remember, I'll remember his smile, his face.

• 17:44Speaker 12

  And his love, so Father's Day is very, very important to me. And I am very happy that I am here in this country and that I'm able to share and I'm able to celebrate and just share this special occasion of Father's Day with my family.

• 18:02Speaker 04

  That stuck with me, and I think it's because it exemplifies so much of why I find these lines to be really special and incredible. It seems like a lot of Mongolian cultural evolution happened and continues to happen on these lines. I think it's sort of amazing that people like me, Vang, got to watch that happen in real time within her community on the lines. And Mother's Day and Father's Day are just two examples of that cultural evolution and change. When I initially called into the line, I thought I would just be kind of in the background listening and recording. I had it like on speakerphone on my cellphone in my kitchen while I was making dinner. But about halfway through the call, just when I thought the callers had forgotten

• 18:46Speaker 04

  I was there, they invited me to join, first asking me to talk about my own father and then asking me questions about myself.

• 18:54Speaker 12

  Yeah. Can you share some of your--

• 18:58Speaker 04

  You are now unmuted.

• 18:59Speaker 12

  --experience with your father with us two, since we're all talking and you're not just listening?

• 19:04Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 19:05Speaker 12

  Can you share some of your experience with your father?

• 19:07Speaker 04

  Yes, I would love to.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  So you've been researching this story for months, and then this is the first time you've spoken on it. Did something kind of like crack open for you once you kind of had a firsthand experience?

• 19:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, I felt really grateful. The whole process of reporting this story, I was and still am an outsider to this community. And so they were really welcoming. I'd called in and listened for research many times to this line, but I had never actually spoken on the lines before. I had never been unmuted, so I was pretty nervous. So my father is from Japan and--

• 19:48Speaker 13

  My parents met when my father came to Wisconsin for school, um, for college. And so my mom is American from Wisconsin and my dad is Japanese. And they come from two completely different cultures and worlds. You know, I love my father. He's still alive. I'm really thankful. Um, and one thing that is hard, though, is, for instance, I won't be able to see him this Father's Day because my dad lives in Japan, actually.

• 20:19Speaker 04

  You never hear English on these lines. And here, these people were like translating for like the girl who doesn't speak Hmong, who is for some reason interested in what we're doing here. It was really kind and really just a wonderful moment. And I even halfway through the show, they were like, hey, Mia, like, some of our normal callers, they don't speak English very well and they don't know what you're saying. So we're going to switch all to Hmong now. Is that OK? And I'm like, oh, my God, like, I am an intruder here. Like, you do what you need to do. It is totally OK. But they opened their space that they created for themselves to an outsider. And they expressed how happy they were that I was, that I joined them that day and shared with them that day.

• 21:01Speaker 04

  So it felt really rewarding and I felt really humbled to be there.

• 21:07Speaker 05

  You are welcome here anytime now. You are the Hmong sister now.

• 21:10Speaker 04

  OK.

• 21:12Speaker 05

  All you need to do, just learn Hmong that you can come enjoy us. I'm going to give you a program that you can hold.

• 21:22Speaker 04

  Ms. Lee, the woman who owns the line I called into, sees what she's doing by owning and operating a line as a form of community service for the Hmong people. She talks a lot about wanting to do this despite being busy because she cares about the people on the other end of the line and not just on Father's Day. For many Hmong people, this is part of everyday life.

• 21:41Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm just happy that, you know, in America, we have something like this that it doesn't matter where we are, we all can stay in touch. We can learn from each other. And it's a way of making friends, it's a way of changing people's lives through the Hmong Conference. That's all I, I know.

• 22:10Speaker 03

  This special episode of Vergecast Pirate Radio was made by Mia Sato, Andrew Marino, and Kevin Nguyen. Fact check done by Maya Hibbett. Special thanks to BAM Studios in Chicago for letting us record, and a shout out to Neelai Patel, Verge EIC, for letting us, in the spirit of Pirate Radio, hijack Vergecast.

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