Milwaukee With Rich People

The Vergecast is back with Nilay Patel, Dieter Bohn, new Verge science editor Liz Lopatto, and notable humanoid trollbeast TC Sottek. There was Ebola, Windows 10, really good Twitter stuff, and then Dieter foolishly took a bet that will see him use a BlackBerry Passport for the next two weeks. It got real. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Nilay Patel?

  Hello. This is The Vergecast.

• 0:11Nilay Patel?

  Is that good?

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:12Nilay Patel?

  Is that how it should start?

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:13Nilay Patel?

  I think it should start like that every time. I was watching a George Clooney movie last night. You know the one where he's like in the airport all the time? What's that movie called?

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Up in the Air.

• 0:20Nilay Patel?

  Up in the Air. And I literally...

• 0:23Speaker 01

  He does that like hello.

• 0:25Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:25Nilay Patel?

  No, I did this thing where... Because he has perfect hair.

• 0:29Speaker 02

  He does have perfect hair.

• 0:30Nilay Patel?

  Just like... I mean, it's like, it's a work of art. And I was like, man, he's got perfect hair. And then my wife was like, he's, everything is perfect. And then she was like, including his voice. And then I spent the rest of the movie repeating everything he said exactly the way he said it. And everything, he talks so slow. He, just like, listen, sometime listen to George Clooney talk. He's just like...

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Super slow.

• 0:51Nilay Patel?

  No. I don't want to go there. And you're like captivated by his hair and his... Anyway, hi, this is The Vergecast.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  I am bad, man.

• 0:59Nilay Patel?

  Uh, where the, the level of audio in our headphones is incredibly loud. Just a note for whoever...

• 1:05Speaker 01

  We also, no way. We also don't have the monitor to let us see how we look. So I might be like out of frame completely if you're watching live video.

• 1:11Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  But this is mostly a podcast, so it's okay.

• 1:14Nilay Patel?

  It's good. Just pretend, just know in your heart that Dieter looks sad.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17Nilay Patel?

  Uh... What do you want from me? Uh, hi, this is The Vergecast, where we talk about technology news, uh, and culture news, and science news, which are very exciting. I'm Neelai.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I'm Dieter.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  I'm Liz.

• 1:30Nilay Patel?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:33Nilay Patel?

  Did I surprise you? Uh, Liz Lopatto is here. She's our new science editor at The Verge. Uh, @mslopato on Twitter, which is, uh, I keep saying this. It's, here's, here's a fact. Here are two facts. One, it is extremely true that we hired Liz because she's extraordinarily qualified and a talented writer and a great editor. But it is also equally true that I read her Twitter feed once and said, "We have to hire this person."

• 1:56Nilay Patel?

  Those things are definitely related. But Liz is here. She's visiting New York. Usually she lives in Oakland, but she's visiting New York for a week. It's been delightful to have her here. And we wanted her on the Vergecast to meet everybody.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  Hey, guys.

• 2:06Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, so it's been a fun week. Yeah, things have happened. Fun? Fun. I've had fun this week. All right. I mean, you know, there's the usual like, oh crap, everything's falling apart. But then there's the, oh, good, I've started drinking and things.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Things are automatically looking out.

• 2:21Nilay Patel?

  Things have resolved themselves. And you go home and just sit there annoying your wife by repeating everything George Clooney says for 30 minutes. And he talks so slow. I mean, just watch a George Clooney movie. He's like, I am Batman.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Is this like a power thing? Is this like, I could get people to pay more attention to me if I just stopped talking quite so quickly?

• 2:44Nilay Patel?

  So here's the thing. I talk to our sales guys upstairs. This is true. And so sales guys are always like thinking about like how to close deals.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Of course. ABC. Always be closing.

• 2:54Nilay Patel?

  Always. And they always be closing. I apologize for that joke. And so they like have this like litany of like moves, like meeting moves. And they talk about this one that Jim Bankoff, our CEO, does, where he just starts talking quiet. And everyone has to lean in. Wow. And like, so that's good. So Bankoff is like a CEO, like he's got it down. He's like, he's in it, right? He can pull that move. He can pull. He's got it.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  I can't pull that move.

• 3:20Nilay Patel?

  No, I would just start giggling.

• 3:24Nilay Patel?

  But the sales guys keep trying it. And apparently some of them keep trying it and keep sucking at it, which is the best. And I'm dying. I don't know. I think I personally want our reporters to like go learn like some of the like meeting power moves from the sales guys. I'll figure it out one of these days.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, we could just watch the Kardashians. I feel like the Kim K moves are probably very similar to like the power moves that you do in sales.

• 3:47Nilay Patel?

  Her move is just being super beautiful and captivating.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  I mean, fair.

• 3:51Nilay Patel?

  I mean, that's like, if I was in a meeting, I'd be like, whatever you want. What is it that you want? I love you. I love everything that you do. You're a true American icon. You're royalty. You also married Kanye West. Can I meet him? Will he be my friend? That would be the best.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Speaking of George Clooney, apparently he gave up burner phones.

• 4:08Nilay Patel?

  Oh, yeah. He got married to a, to a very famous lawyer, a very powerful lawyer.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Human rights lawyer.

• 4:15Nilay Patel?

  Huh?

• 4:15Speaker 02

  A human rights lawyer.

• 4:16Nilay Patel?

  A human rights lawyer. Uh, and he gave away to avoid leaks. He made everybody have burner phones, which makes no sense.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  So I think-

• 4:22Nilay Patel?

  What would you use that phone for?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  The idea is you take the pictures, you can send them around, you can do whatever you want with those things, but they know that they're not backed up to iCloud.

• 4:32Nilay Patel?

  Huh?

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:34Nilay Patel?

  That doesn't make any sense.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Very short sighted.

• 4:35Nilay Patel?

  Well, cause you would presumably want the phones to not leak to the world, right?

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sorry, I'm posing for Snapchat right now.

• 4:42Nilay Patel?

  Oh, God.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  There, that's, it's over.

• 4:44Nilay Patel?

  Sam, Sam Sheffer is, uh, what I would call a Snapchat hype beast. Uh, that's a phrase I would use that I think he would enjoy. Uh, and he's just all over it. Okay, we should talk about some news that happens. We've got, we've got Liz that's, is here.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, to talk about the most depressing things ever.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's kind of my beat. Like, that's like where I live is, you know, terrible things happen to people and I write about it. Um, but I mean, obviously the thing that people have been really concerned about lately has been Ebola.

• 5:10Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Uh, cause we had our first case diagnosed in the U.S. And I want to be super clear. Um, having a case diagnosed here is not quite the same as having transmission here and especially not the same as having sustained transmission. Um, and I know that's a little jargony. Um, basically, uh, this guy, uh, came from Liberia and, uh, got into Texas visiting family and suddenly started showing symptoms. So, um, you know, so he got diagnosed here, but he clearly caught it somewhere else. Um, and now all of his family is being monitored. Everybody he's come in contact with is being monitored. All of their secondary contacts are being monitored. So that would be, if, if somebody else gets sick, that would be transmission.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Um, and the average number of people in Ebola person, a person infected with Ebola effects, infects is two.

• 6:01Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  So it's not nearly as contagious as things like measles, mumps, pertussis, all sorts of other stuff.

• 6:06Nilay Patel?

  So why does Ebola have this reputation? Cause I think of Ebola and I literally think of like zombies, like- Running down the street like blood spurting out of every part of their body.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Well, it's super horrific, like the way that people die. You know, you start sweating and you have this big fever and then you, you know, have diarrhea and like, it's just like this total hemorrhage thing and like it's a completely horrific death. Don't get me wrong. Uh, and most people who are infected do die. But it's really hard to transmit. I mean, like I, um, I hear people worrying and it's like, well, this is, this is an airborne infection. Like unless you're like deep throating somebody who is in currently like, you know,

• 6:42Speaker 02

  currently infectious, like it's not a thing.

• 6:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, no, I'm just, yeah. That's super hard to transmit, guys.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  So what's wrong with the, what's, tell me, tell me.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  I think I made Dieter blush.

• 6:53Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, you did, a little bit.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Tell me what's horrible. Okay, whatever.

• 6:58Nilay Patel?

  No, go ahead. No, it's fine. Look, there's like clearly the one way to transmit Ebola. I presume there are others.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have to be in contact with an infected person's bodily fluid and the person has to be symptomatic. Because when they're asymptomatic, they don't have enough viral load to infect anybody else. So all of the people on that plane with him before he got sick are probably fine.

• 7:20Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  You know, and but anybody who met him after he started to have the fever and the symptoms and may have come in contact with like, um, towels that he had been sweating on, that kind of thing. That is potentially a risk.

• 7:34Nilay Patel?

  Right. So you were telling me, uh, that like the treatment for Ebola is basically like a lot of fluid and time.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, and prayer. I mean,

• 7:41Nilay Patel?

  Prayer.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, um, yeah, it's like any, uh, disease where you hemorrhage, you basically are losing all of the water from your body, which is very destructive. Your body needs a lot of water, like 70% water or something.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  And so what you do is you want to rehydrate these patients as best you can. But that's it. Like, that's all, that's all we can do.

• 8:02Nilay Patel?

  Right. That's nuts.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:05Nilay Patel?

  I mean, that's nuts. So why is this outbreak so much more worse than the previous ones? I saw a chart, I think it was on vox.com where it's like, it just spiked out of control.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  It's actually really sad. So there aren't a lot of, uh, public health, um, infrastructure. Not a lot of hospitals, not a lot of ambulances, uh, in a lot of these countries. And then on top of that, um, you also have the problem of, you know, there aren't enough protective, like protective gloves, protective rounds, that kind of thing. I think in Liberia, I think it was Liberia, there was also a nurses' strike going on.

• 8:38Nilay Patel?

  Oh my god, oh wow.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  This, this first hit, in part because nobody had been paid in a really long time.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  And, you know, the, the WHO response was really late.

• 8:50Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Really, really late. And just to put, you know, the WHO in perspective, their, their budget is smaller than our CDC's. And they only control about 25% of it. That's the member dues.

• 9:00Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  What happens to the other 75% of it?

• 9:02Speaker 02

  They're donations that are earmarked for specific diseases by the member countries. So like, you know, you get a couple million here, a couple million there for AIDS, you get a couple million here, a couple million there for malaria. And they can't decide how best to spend that money because that has already been decided by their donors.

• 9:17Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  So they are, they're, they're operating with a really small budget.

• 9:23Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  By comparison. And it's the whole world that they have to take care of.

• 9:26Nilay Patel?

  That's bonkers.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:28Nilay Patel?

  So, I've read, there's a few things about this I think are interesting. I've read a bunch of stuff that's like, this is, because we're more globalized, it's inevitably coming to the United States, which strikes me as crazy.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  But then it happened with the one patient.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Right. But, I mean, it is inevitable.

• 9:43Nilay Patel?

  Well, in like Business Week ran a cover that was like Ebola is coming.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  It was like, it was in blood, right? See?

• 9:51Speaker 02

  I just, I think that's, that's needlessly panic inducing. I think a lot of people are afraid of something that they don't have to be afraid of if they're living in a place with a public health system. I mean, we know how to treat infectious diseases. This isn't the first hemorrhagic fever we've had here. Marburg fever, which is really similar. We had a patient who came in and was sick in 2007 and didn't spread it. And I think there have been three other cases as well. So this is the first Ebola case, but not the first case from that family of diseases. And we've done a pretty good job containing it. I mean, we have isolation facilities, we have public health, we have people following up with all of the contacts. Um, so that's the big difference. I mean, like, we have the infrastructure. We have the gloves. We have hand washing. We have all of these things, you know?

• 10:34Nilay Patel?

  Right. Do we have the facility? What's that Michael Crichton? Uh, book? No, uh, no, outbreak is with the monkey and I gotta find the monkey.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 10:41Nilay Patel?

  No, it's not Hot Zone. You can't just make up Michael Crichton book. TC is here. He's gonna talk about Windows soon. It's the one where they go deep Andromeda strain.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:50Nilay Patel?

  Do we have one of those? Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 10:51Speaker 02

  I have no idea.

• 10:52Nilay Patel?

  Uh, so there's this terrible, like, 80s.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Imagine, imagine ET, but instead of tubes to keep the alien isolated, it's...

• 10:59Nilay Patel?

  No, no, it's an underground facility. Uh, it's like meteorite hits a small town and everyone basically starts melting.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:06Nilay Patel?

  Right. It's Michael Crichton.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  As one does.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Well, it's a virus from Andromeda.

• 11:10Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Hence, it's the Andromeda strain.

• 11:12Nilay Patel?

  Uh, except for, except for an old man and a baby. This is true. Uh, and they take the old man, the baby, and they put them in an underground facility with like a carefully constructed team of like a computer researcher and a couple of biologists and a doctor and a psychologist who studies how team, it's Michael Crichton, right? Uh, and they're all in the seventies, like monkeying with computers, like going through tubes, trying to figure out why the old man, the baby stayed alive, which I will not reveal here. Rent the Andromeda strain, or actually I think you'd purchase a book.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Are we, are we a spoiler free podcast?

• 11:43Speaker 01

  No, just, it's, it's from 1970. It's 40 years old.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think you can spoil. I don't think you can spoil this for anybody.

• 11:50Nilay Patel?

  Look, they discover that the old man drank a lot of, like, TC's not happy.

• 11:57Nilay Patel?

  Uh, the old man was an alcoholic and drank a lot of Sterno and the baby cried a lot. And so they both somehow put their bodies out of the pH, the narrow pH range in which the virus was operating. Sorry, this is the fucking reveal of the book. Like, it's true. It's, that's the book. That's like at the end of the book. He's like, I got it! The old man is drinking Sterno. Uh, I don't remember what happened. I'm pretty sure they prescribed that all of America drank a bunch of Sterno.

• 12:23Nilay Patel?

  But anyway, the conceit of this book and movie is that there's someplace in America where scientists can go in a hole and like study viruses in a safe place.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  So we have biocontainment facilities.

• 12:35Nilay Patel?

  So this is like back to reality.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  In reality, they're not really in holes so much as they're in hospitals. And there are various different levels. It's one through four with four being the highest and Ebola is usually ranked as four.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  But you know, that's how we do things like study everything from you know measles to the more serious stuff like HIV to the really more serious stuff like Ebola, any kind of smallpox, that sort of thing. And there are you know, procedures and that's the difference between the levels and it's gets sort of arcane after that, but basically has to do with how much you have to clean yourself off and how much you have to like, wear a gown and that kind of thing and you know, you go through like you go through. Well, it's like a hospital gown like they you know.

• 13:24Nilay Patel?

  It would just be amazing.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Not a hazmat suit at the highest level?

• 13:28Speaker 02

  At the highest level it's a hazmat suit, but in other ones is just like a clean, like clean.

• 13:32Nilay Patel?

  Right. So the other thing with Ebola is we were talking about this yesterday a little bit. I think you and Ariel were talking about sort of the most, which is there's like a weird xenophobic first American death from Ebola and now it's important, right?

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:47Nilay Patel?

  How is that still like, is that actually a thing or is that just we're perceiving like how to make it important for an American audience?

• 13:54Speaker 02

  It's hard to tell. I mean, there I was on the CDC call when they announced this first case and the first time somebody asked if it was an American citizen, I was like, okay. Like by the fourth time it felt weird, you know? Like is it really that important? Like that important that we find out whether this is a citizen or somebody who's visiting or somebody who like, you know? Is a resident alien, like, does it, like, does it matter?

• 14:18Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  His status? Like, he's here, he's sick.

• 14:21Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, and he's presumably being contained.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, he is.

• 14:25Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  He's in isolation.

• 14:26Nilay Patel?

  So is there more concern here? I mean, this is like, really, it's of, there are many science stories happening, and you've done a bunch so far, but this is like, the story of our time right now.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Right, this is, this is the big one, yeah.

• 14:36Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, you know, it's not the only public health emergency. I mean, like, there's another much more slow-moving one coming, and that's climate change.

• 14:46Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Which is really good for certain diseases, like dengue and malaria and chikungunya.

• 14:54Nilay Patel?

  Well, you know, Bill Gates is gonna kill malaria with lasers.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  With lasers?

• 14:58Nilay Patel?

  That's his thing, that's him and, and, uh, uh, oh, God, who's the patent troll? Nathan Myhrvold.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:05Nilay Patel?

  They've, that's what Intellectual Ventures, theoretically Intellectual Ventures, is a patent troll.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:10Nilay Patel?

  So they can spend their money on developing lasers that kill mosquitoes. This is a fact. Like, if you, if you read any piece at Intellectual Ventures, it's true, you know, you know I'm right. They all open with, like, Nathan Myhrvold is shooting a mosquito with a laser. And it's like, yeah, but he's also, like, ruining all...

• 15:28Speaker 01

  What, what, what chicken, chicken?

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Chikungunya.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Gunya.

• 15:31Nilay Patel?

  They're just moving on.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Don't, what, what is that? Should I be, should I panic about that?

• 15:36Speaker 02

  No, uh, not yet.

• 15:37Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  But it...

• 15:39Speaker 01

  What should I panic about? That's what I really want to know.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  What should you panic about?

• 15:43Nilay Patel?

  What can I freak out about and be mad at my evening news for not helping me freak out about?

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Um, well, I mean, there are a lot of low-level things that kill a whole bunch of people, um, and so like, the thing...

• 15:52Nilay Patel?

  We're getting tweeted out about car crashes right now.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Right, right, oh, well, that would be a thing. I was thinking more along the lines of vaccines. Uh, I would, I'm a little panicky about, uh, people who don't get their kids vaccinated. I am very panicky about the antibiotic situation, which is not good. And those are, those are real.

• 16:09Nilay Patel?

  So there's a big, there's a big Obama antibiotic plan that was like super criticized, right?

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, so, um, basically, the antibiotic plan was addressing doctors and hospitals, but 80% of antibiotic, antibiotic consumers are actually animals. And so a lot of these antibiotic resistant germs are coming from farms.

• 16:31Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  And the plan didn't really address that. We've stopped using antibiotics in feed for growth purposes, which was a routine thing. Because antibiotics do make animals grow larger. But there are also, you know, routine uses, like preventive uses, when you have a bunch of chickens packed very closely together, because if one of them gets sick, they all get sick, and so they do preventive antibiotic treatment, which is not great. Because the chickens, you know, if they're not sick already, then you're basically just exposing the antibiotics to everything in the environment. And things that small are really good at swapping genes, like especially, like, yeah, recombination.

• 17:12Nilay Patel?

  What?

• 17:13Speaker 02

  So if you have an antibiotic resistant gene in your, in something, bacteria in your gut, it can potentially swap into something else. Yeah.

• 17:23Nilay Patel?

  Wait, why things that small? And that's, this is like a thing I don't know.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  Um, I, I'm not totally sure why, why it works on that scale. But it's one of those things where, uh, you know, they swap, a lot of bacteria swap genes. And that's antibiotic resistant genes are among.

• 17:42Nilay Patel?

  Just a key part of your stomach.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's like, uh, how, um, swine flu became swine flu. Like it was a bird flu that recombined in a pig's stomach.

• 17:50Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Uh, and then it became very infectious for people.

• 17:54Nilay Patel?

  That's terrible. That makes me sad.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:58Nilay Patel?

  You have any happy science news?

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 18:02Nilay Patel?

  You know, it's really interesting about when I talk to you about science, it's like, there's a part of me that's like still eight years old and it's like happy science news is like robots are coming, right? But that's fundamentally like tech news. Like there's a, there's an incredible overlap here between what we're doing and what's happening in science and then like how we perceive what science will like bring us. And right now, what you're bringing us is incredibly infectious diseases.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  That's right. Um, that's right. That's part of it. Um, you know, I don't know if this is good news, but it's certainly interesting news. Um, the US is holding on to nukes to defend Earth against rogue asteroids.

• 18:40Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  I don't know if you guys saw that?

• 18:42Nilay Patel?

  Did?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Oh, we just got an answer. But is there like an actual plan to?

• 18:47Nilay Patel?

  We, all right, hold on, let me check some Twitter credentials.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Oh, here we go.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  Does Twitter have things to say about what's good news?

• 18:53Nilay Patel?

  Yes. A chemistry masters of science person, Shen Yi, says bacteria can swap genes easily because despite only working swaps survive, they replicate so fast it doesn't matter.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  There we go.

• 19:04Nilay Patel?

  See, that's.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  We're followed by brilliant people. That's really lucky.

• 19:07Nilay Patel?

  Also, one complete jerk.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I saw that. Blocked.

• 19:12Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. See, that's your move. Uh, if you guys don't know this, Liz is the master of the Twitter block. So it's amazing to watch. She calls him out out loud as she works, which is the best. Uh, but she's like got a, you have a script at this point, I'm sure.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it's just one of those things where it's like, you know, if you have something to say about my appearance, I'm blocking you.

• 19:32Nilay Patel?

  I think you look nice today.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Blocked and repeated a spam.

• 19:36Nilay Patel?

  Damn it. Damn it. I tried so hard to.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  But, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, hey, cutie. And it's like, you know, I didn't come to the internet to like be harassed like I am at a bar. Like, that's not what I want. And you're not, I don't have to listen to you. Goodbye.

• 19:51Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I'm telling you, like one of the best Twitter feeds of all time. It's the best.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  That's really nice to hear.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  You yell at your computer a lot.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  I do. Yeah. I.

• 19:58Nilay Patel?

  Wait, no, to be fair, Dieter today literally looked at his computer and just said the word, like really demandingly, where?

• 20:06Speaker 01

  It was like very like as everyone's like, what, where, what? And he's like, no, I'm just, I'm just talking my screens.

• 20:11Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. It's just, I mean, this is truly a strange place to work.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I do. I totally talk to my computer.

• 20:18Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  I really am not looking forward to the day that there's like voice recognition because I'm going to be yelling at my computer and the, you know, blowing off steam.

• 20:25Nilay Patel?

  But isn't that the dream? Like you can scream at like the machine and the machine just has to take it. No?

• 20:32Speaker 01

  But does the machine have feelings? Don't you feel bad for the machine?

• 20:35Nilay Patel?

  I, I don't. I, I just don't. I mean, like, maybe one day I will, but like this thing, here's the thing, once you like have had enough computers in your life.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 20:43Nilay Patel?

  They stop having a character.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Oh, so it's like children?

• 20:47Nilay Patel?

  That's like, it's like having children in eighteen hundreds.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:49Nilay Patel?

  Right? Where you're just like, you're just like, what?

• 20:51Speaker 01

  There's another one.

• 20:51Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I hope, go plow the fields.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:53Nilay Patel?

  Until you be taken with some terrible illness.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  Until you, until you die of infectious disease.

• 20:58Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:59Nilay Patel?

  It's ah, this, these children today. I wish they were heartier. No, it's, once you've had enough computers, it's like, they just stop being.

• 21:09Nilay Patel?

  Like my, when I was smaller, my computer was like very important to me.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  It's special. Yeah, yeah.

• 21:12Nilay Patel?

  It was like a reflection of my identity. Now it's like the thing I leave at work and I go home and like, don't think about it.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:18Nilay Patel?

  Except for the fact that I'm like, I'm trying to work on my phone and this is terrible. Wish I brought my laptop home. And then that feeling passes in minutes. This is, you leave your laptop at work too?

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Ah, I bounce. Sometimes I, I mean, I've got another laptop at home.

• 21:30Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  So I just use that one.

• 21:32Nilay Patel?

  I have an iMac at home. Here's my problem with the iMac at home. Uh, I recently changed all my passwords. And the iMac at home is not logged into my email because it wants the two factor password.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 21:42Nilay Patel?

  And I leave my phone in the other room and I'm like, oh, don't, don't care. It's not gonna do this. And so my iMac is like a little bit useless because it's not logged into a bunch of stuff.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Cause, cause your phone's five feet away from it.

• 21:54Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, like, ah, I've gotta leave another room. I've gotta leave the room. Ah, I guess it's not gonna do this.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  And then you leave the room anyway.

• 22:01Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, and then I get completely distracted.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 22:04Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Vodka.

• 22:05Nilay Patel?

  Vodka.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  No, this is nothing. This is a glass of water.

• 22:08Nilay Patel?

  Nothing at all. When I first started podcasting, our producer Trent used to tell me that I had to stop, I had to switch to beer because he could always hear the ice in the glass. But screen you, Trent.

• 22:24Nilay Patel?

  So Liz, what's up? We only have a few more minutes with you. What else is going on? Tell me what you're gonna do with Verge Science. What's the dream?

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Um, to build an empire and conquer the world.

• 22:32Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, cheers. I'm into that. Ooh, that was loud. No, seriously, like, what's beyond that? What's the plan for Verge Science? What do you want? How do you want to engage with readers? What do you want to tell them? What do you want them to tell you?

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Um, well, you know, I really want to, uh, write stuff that's, and, and edit stuff that's very, very voicey, um, you know, and that is aimed at a general reader who is enthusiastic about science, but maybe not necessarily knowledgeable. And I want to do it in an interesting way. And I often feel like, as important as study stories are, uh, they often don't really get at the depth of what's going on, because each individual study sort of piles up into a thing that you can then write about.

• 23:12Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  But each individual study can be very confusing, because sometimes you get, uh, contradictory results, depending on what, you know, population you're using.

• 23:20Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Like, you, the vitamin studies are case in point, really, where like, it's like one week, you know, vitamin E is great for you, and the next week, it's like, oops, if you're a smoker, that increases your cancer risk.

• 23:29Nilay Patel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  So...

• 23:31Nilay Patel?

  This is like, cell phones give you cancer.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:33Nilay Patel?

  We used to run a series with the headline, "Cell phones will or will not give you cancer."

• 23:37Speaker 01

  And the literal headline was "will slash will not."

• 23:39Nilay Patel?

  Yep.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Um, but, so, you know, I want to be able to step back and give a little bit more perspective, because I think that one of the reasons people get frustrated with science and science journalism is because each individual study is being reported, rather than sort of this larger, broader context.

• 23:54Nilay Patel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  And, uh, that's why replication is so important in science, you know? If somebody else in a different lab does the same thing that you did and gets the same result, you have a good result. So, yeah, I want to, I want to go a little bit deeper, uh, and be a little bit more thorough.

• 24:09Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  And, uh, I don't know, just bring you some kick-ass stuff.

• 24:13Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I mean, there's, there's so much going on, and it, I always say the thing with the Verge audience, it's cool, is they're like engaged, right?

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:19Nilay Patel?

  They will talk to you. Um, and it's cool to have, sort of, figure out what we're gonna build Verge Science into is gonna be fun.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:26Nilay Patel?

  Because everything we do thus far is like, already explosively popular. The Verge. That's it.

• 24:33Speaker 03

  Sweet.

• 24:34Nilay Patel?

  No, awesome. It was great having you here.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:37Nilay Patel?

  We'll have you back. We'll be on the show again. Uh, and now we're gonna execute a very seamless switch.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's gonna be no pause whatsoever.

• 24:43Nilay Patel?

  No, we're just gonna keep talking.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:46Nilay Patel?

  So while this is happening, here's the thing I will say.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Oh, here we go.

• 24:49Nilay Patel?

  Uh, TC is fired, is what you say.

• 24:52Speaker 03

  You're never gonna fire TC.

• 24:53Nilay Patel?

  No, I can't. He's like a barnacle. He's like, he's like, you know, old ships that have barnacles? And the barnacles are actually holding the ship together.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  What are these? Look at this, look at this laptop. He's got a, he's got a...

• 25:08Nilay Patel?

  Can you turn your laptop into a troll, TC?

• 25:10Speaker 01

  He's got duct tape on the back. It says Surface Pro 4.

• 25:13Nilay Patel?

  TC has duct tape on his laptop.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Surface Pro 4.

• 25:15Nilay Patel?

  Well, you have to, you have to read it. It says Surface Pro 4. It says running real Windows 10. What's the other one?

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Intel Windside?

• 25:24Speaker 01

  No, but...

• 25:25Nilay Patel?

  But it does have Intel Inside.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  It says Windside.

• 25:28Nilay Patel?

  Oh.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Cause it's a win.

• 25:30Nilay Patel?

  Well, here's the thing you need to know about TC. We had a story meeting today. Uh, and TC, at the end of the meeting, it was, you know, TC was telling about all the stories he's working on. And then he looked very seriously through the room and he said, "It's time for our Windows coverage to get better." "It's time for us to start, you know, really having people like really use Windows."

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:48Nilay Patel?

  And said, "Okay, here's your moment, man. You got the stage. Talk about it."

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Let's hear some, some sweet Windows stories.

• 25:56Nilay Patel?

  Tell us about Windows 10. Tell us about Windows 7.5.

• 26:00Speaker 03

  Do we want, do we want to back up and say what happened this week?

• 26:04Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, do, do the whole thing. This is your show, man.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  Okay. Um, so Microsoft basically said, "Hey, we're not doing Windows 9." "We're doing Windows 10." Sorry, first they said they're doing Windows 1, which was a troll.

• 26:20Nilay Patel?

  A huge troll.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Huge troll.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Did anybody go up with a headline? Oh my God, it's Windows 1.

• 26:23Speaker 03

  We did. We got burned on Twitter. I think we did, didn't we?

• 26:26Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, we got tweeted. We got burned everywhere. Like, the industry got burned, right? Like, they were, I mean, a lot of very good Microsoft reporters, one of whom works here at The Verge, were convinced it was gonna be Windows 9.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the title of our live blog.

• 26:40Nilay Patel?

  It was in the URLs. Like, Microsoft, like, just executed like the ultimate SEO troll on the industry. Right? Like, finally, they're getting that sweet Google traffic they've always wanted, cause they were the only publication in the world, or the only site that had Windows 10 in their URLs. Anyway, so this happened.

• 26:56Speaker 03

  Anyway, yeah. So they, they showed off like a very small... portion of the new Windows that's coming out. It's a, they released a technical preview, which is basically for uber nerds who.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  It's, it's like, it's like, it's like Windows 7 with a different start menu.

• 27:12Speaker 03

  Exactly. Yeah. I used it, I used it for a few hours last night and it is pretty much that. Cause I, I've been using Windows 7 since the beta.

• 27:21Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 27:22Speaker 03

  I don't know how many years.

• 27:23Nilay Patel?

  You're like, but you, just to set the stage, like TC is a PC guy. He's, you built a PC.

• 27:30Speaker 03

  Uh.

• 27:30Nilay Patel?

  Have a PC.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  I've been using Windows since 1992.

• 27:33Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  3.1.

• 27:35Nilay Patel?

  When you were four years old.

• 27:37Speaker 03

  I was older than four. Not much older, but older.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  So, no, I think, yeah, you don't, we're the same. Cause I, I was three, I wasn't three, I was three one.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I remember like, being really familiar with MS-DOS like that early on.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  I remember.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  So I've been using.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  What was your high mem configuration?

• 27:55Nilay Patel?

  Oh my god. I had a PC with a turbo button. I'm just putting it out there. It was like a fact.

• 27:59Speaker 03

  I did. My first computer was like a $350 HP from Best Buy.

• 28:05Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  That I bought to play Counter-Strike at LAN parties.

• 28:09Nilay Patel?

  Right. Did it have a turbo button?

• 28:11Speaker 03

  It was terrible. No.

• 28:12Nilay Patel?

  I've never understood what the turbo button is for. I like push.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Going faster, bro.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  It's like NAS.

• 28:17Nilay Patel?

  NAS.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  That's truly the legacy of Fall Walker.

• 28:20Speaker 03

  Anyway, I've been using Windows forever. Like, I'm super familiar with it. Uh, I used to be really into building PCs every time a new graphics card would come out.

• 28:31Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 28:31Speaker 03

  I would look at every spec. I would, you know, every month or so, when I got bored at work, I would build a few computers in the new egg.

• 28:41Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 28:41Speaker 03

  Shopping cart that I would never buy. Um, so I'm, I'm really familiar with Windows. At least from a, I've used it for more than two decades.

• 28:53Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 28:53Speaker 03

  Kind of perspective.

• 28:53Nilay Patel?

  And you are not, you are not terribly impressed with Windows 10, what you're seeing.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Well, let's, before.

• 28:59Nilay Patel?

  You want to do the event?

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Before we pass judgment on the 10 itself, we gotta do the event, we gotta talk about.

• 29:03Nilay Patel?

  Okay, here's the thing.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  For a bit more.

• 29:05Nilay Patel?

  The event, so there's a lot of, I can do some backstory in the event. I got you. You want to do it? You can do it.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  No, no. We, we talked about, uh, the, the way they, this insane thing where they kept the event super small. Like they want, they, they wanted to believe that they could just talk to business and enterprise customers and nobody else would notice.

• 29:20Nilay Patel?

  Uh, yeah, I mean, I'll, you know, I'll say this. Uh, you know, we asked Microsoft, like, let us send more people. Right? Let us do a full, let's blow this out. And they said no. Flatly, they were like, Tom Warren will come, uh, which is fine. That's a thing you do. But you can't launch a thing called Windows 10 and not expect everyone to pay attention to you. And that's like, they just, I don't think they assumed that would happen. Right? They didn't assume that they would have so much attention for a new, a whole new product. And I think they thought that they are gonna build Windows in a new way, which is admirable. Right? Like, here's the foundation of what we're doing. We're gonna let our biggest customers into the process.

• 30:02Nilay Patel?

  We're gonna build it in it like moments. I get what they're doing.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're putting out new releases every two weeks or something ridiculous.

• 30:09Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, they're gonna build it really fast. They're gonna show everybody, everything they're doing. They're gonna be like, do you like this? Like, no, like, Microsoft has been burned on big ideas so many times. It sounds like they're gonna just like, do you, this one?

• 30:20Speaker 01

  This is.

• 30:21Nilay Patel?

  Do you like this? We built this.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Designed by committee with the biggest committee possible.

• 30:25Nilay Patel?

  Right. And that seems pretty messy.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 30:28Nilay Patel?

  Uh, no, so somebody's just saying, uh, somebody's asked me, Windows 10 needs a gate scandal for better coverage. And it's like, no, Microsoft doesn't want us to cover, like, straight up, we asked. They held that event basically across the street from our San Francisco office. And we're like, let's send all of our reporters to the event. And they were like, no.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  Well, whether or not that was a good, you know, the optics of that are good.

• 30:52Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  They were holding an event on their own terms and not the tech media's terms, which is, give us an Apple presentation for your next product, because what they're doing is actually the exact opposite of what Apple does.

• 31:05Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 31:05Speaker 03

  Which is saying, okay, we're not gonna release Windows until late 2015, which is a really long time from now.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Why are you having an event at all?

• 31:13Nilay Patel?

  Well, no, I get what they're doing.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  I get what they're doing, yeah.

• 31:15Nilay Patel?

  They just didn't, they're not.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  They're a different company. They, they have, they see their stakeholders differently, uh, and how they develop their product. So I think, you know, I think, um, at least what I, you know, having to sit through that event was really fun because I talk shit on Twitter all day. I love, I love tech events.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  By the way, you guys know TC, but he has a different Twitter handle now. He's no longer laughing stoic.

• 31:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, why'd you change your Twitter handle?

• 31:41Speaker 03

  Felt like it.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:44Nilay Patel?

  You can, but you get to keep your followers, right?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  But what was the process of changing your Twitter handle? You just changed it?

• 31:48Speaker 03

  Hey, you just go in and...

• 31:50Speaker 01

  Did you have...

• 31:50Speaker 03

  Of course, I spent like 10 hours trying to find one that hasn't been taken because Twitter's been around since 2007, so...

• 31:57Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Yeah. How'd you land on Chillmage?

• 32:00Speaker 03

  It was available.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  You know, being around since 2007 doesn't matter. I couldn't get Verge on ELO. I tried to get Verge on ELO and I was like a day late.

• 32:07Nilay Patel?

  We're not talking about ELO.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  No.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  No? You're not talking about ELO?

• 32:09Nilay Patel?

  No.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  No?

• 32:10Nilay Patel?

  Come on.

• 32:12Speaker 03

  It's a joke.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Let's talk about Windows 9.

• 32:14Nilay Patel?

  It's the app.net of, of, of, of Facebook. This way, it's, it's like, app.net was the app.net of Twitter and ELO is the app.net of Facebook. And everything will fail and Casey wrote a great thing about it.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I read it. It's good.

• 32:27Nilay Patel?

  Advertising runs the world, okay? That's true. It's happening to you right now in your brain, whether or not you want it to.

• 32:33Speaker 03

  So anyway, I love Windows.

• 32:35Nilay Patel?

  It's like, obey.

• 32:36Speaker 03

  Because I've used it.

• 32:37Nilay Patel?

  I love, advertising runs the world, he's just like, I love Windows.

• 32:40Speaker 03

  And I think Windows should die.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 32:43Speaker 03

  I do. I've been using it for, sorry.

• 32:45Nilay Patel?

  Wait, we haven't done the event.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  We gotta do nine.

• 32:47Speaker 03

  What are we doing?

• 32:47Nilay Patel?

  Do it.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  No, the event's fine, whatever. There was an event, it was like, huh, here's a command line, ha, ha, ha. Isn't it funny we're showing you a command line? No. It's not that funny.

• 32:57Nilay Patel?

  They were trying to, here's what, they were, all the stuff they were doing at the event was like, we have taken the time to finally improve these little parts of Windows that you've always complained about. We have a plan for our tablets that we're not going to really talk about, but like, here's some Windows 8 stuff that we grafted on. But really, this is like Windows 7 Plus, right? And we're just really going to harp on the fact that Windows 7 users will find this familiar, big businesses that have not yet upgraded to Windows 8.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:25Nilay Patel?

  Also, please be a part of our development process because we need you.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:28Nilay Patel?

  That, that was the event.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  That's fine.

• 33:29Nilay Patel?

  And it was a strange, it was just a strange event. Like, just go watch that video, like, ask yourself, like... If it's great for Microsoft to do the iterative development, I think that's really cool. It's very different, but holding an event, calling it Windows 10, it's disconnected from the, they want this thing to be small. Having an event and calling it Windows 10 made it big.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:54Nilay Patel?

  And that's really the, that's all the problem.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Why 10? I, like, I've only seen one answer.

• 34:00Nilay Patel?

  It's a bad, and Tom does not agree with that answer.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  I don't either. I just think it's hilarious answer.

• 34:04Nilay Patel?

  Go ahead.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  So the answer, was this on CNET? The answer that I've seen that is hilarious is.

• 34:10Nilay Patel?

  It's, it's still a rumor.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  There's a bunch of apps. Yeah, it's a rumor. There's a bunch of, uh, programs that back then they weren't called apps, they were called programs.

• 34:17Nilay Patel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  That were designed to detect what version of Windows they were running on, and they needed to check to see if they were running Windows 95 and/or Windows 98. And so the, the common code was if running Windows 9X, 9 star, then blah, blah, blah, blah. So they couldn't call it Windows 9 because all those programs that were designed to detect whether or not they're running in Windows 95 or 98 would fail.

• 34:41Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, Tom really, by the way.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  It's a good joke.

• 34:43Nilay Patel?

  It's a good joke, but it's not real.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's not real. And also, Tom just, Tom had like a Twitter moment yesterday. Yeah, he was stressed. He'd been working.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:52Nilay Patel?

  He's probably on a plane.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  He did, yeah, he covered a lot at that event.

• 34:55Nilay Patel?

  I will say that drunk Twitter on a plane has been where I've made what I will, what I will just candidly call my, my biggest mistakes.

• 35:04Nilay Patel?

  Just, just my most resounding errors have all, have all occurred, like, because Twitter works on a plane when it, nothing else will. Do you know this?

• 35:13Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:14Nilay Patel?

  So like, like, you know, you're on the plane, you're like, go, go, you've got like bad wifi. And like, basically, nothing will work, right?

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:20Nilay Patel?

  Like, the, like, the web won't load, and like, your email will be crappy, but Twitter comes through. And you're like, but what if, what if I just say this? And you're like, you're drinking, you're at high altitude, yeah, it's like pressured.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  You can't talk to the people next to you.

• 35:33Nilay Patel?

  TC, basically, where the story is going is TC, if you ever get on a plane, you in particular, don't use your phone.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Okay, but why 10? Why not 9?

• 35:45Nilay Patel?

  Cause they-

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Just tell me.

• 35:46Nilay Patel?

  Cause their competition is at 10.

• 35:49Speaker 03

  I think the better question is why Windows? That name is such a quagmire.

• 35:54Nilay Patel?

  No, I've said for years that Windows is a bad brand name.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  It is for their tablets. They always, we all, we're not going back to they should have called it Metro.

• 36:02Nilay Patel?

  This is the disconnect. For their enterprise customers, Windows is a great name. They bought into Windows, they're invested in Windows. This is like, that's where they've built their businesses. For consumers, Windows is a disaster. And I think that is Microsoft's biggest problem. They have been trying to serve two masters for the longest time. They have been trying to serve consumers with enterprise strategies. That's where you end up with like, you know, Microsoft Windows 95 Pro XP Edition or whatever, right? Like, they're doing these things that they assume consumers are experts, like their enterprise IT customers. And then with 8, they tried to service their IT customers, enterprise customers with consumer features, and they're like, nope.

• 36:44Nilay Patel?

  And they just, how many times have we said they should have left Windows 7 alone, had Windows 8, and then split out Metro for tablets? Like, we have said it a thousand times. And I'm looking at Windows 10, and what I see is, that's basically what they're gonna do.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Depending on whether or not a keyboard is attached.

• 37:01Nilay Patel?

  Right. But like, that's what they're gonna do, right? They're gonna break out all of the Metro slash modern features and do a tablet touch interface, and that's gonna go over here and probably won't touch the desktop too hard. And they're finally gonna like make the desktop its own thing, including like refining the command prompt. That's a great strategy.

• 37:18Speaker 03

  I think it's a terrible strategy.

• 37:20Nilay Patel?

  They're just doing it three years too late.

• 37:21Speaker 03

  I think, I think, uh, nobody actually really wants to do what they think people want to do, which is like-

• 37:29Speaker 03

  What BlackBerry thinks people want to do, which is like have a phone or have a phone with a keyboard on it still. They like keyboards.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  All BlackBerry wants to do right now is exist. Let's be like anything that that's that's their ambition.

• 37:40Nilay Patel?

  Oh, can we can we just take a quick BlackBerry pause?

• 37:42Speaker 01

  No, that's coming.

• 37:43Speaker 03

  No, I'm just saying. The desktop is fundamentally like a decent user experience. There are tons of apps that are going to be around forever that are not going to get modern UIs that governments are going to use that old businesses are going to use like that needs to be around. When but it just doesn't need to exist alongside.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Why does it need to be around? Um, why, why, why do we have to?

• 38:12Speaker 03

  Because I don't think.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  No, but no, but.

• 38:14Speaker 03

  Certain, certain tools that.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  We made this stuff. We made this shit for Windows. And it wasn't like when we were making this shit for Windows for all these enterprise apps that they were like, we're like, oh, man. We gotta make sure we've got the stuff that runs on VAX. We're going to make sure VAX sticks around and stays the same forever because we made all this stuff for VAX or Unix or whatever the hell you want. Everybody made this shit for Windows in the 90s and early 2000s. They can make that shit again. And I know that it will cost money and whatever, and I personally think they should be building something on something like the web. It's more cross platform so that they can not have to worry about what it runs on. But all I'm saying is.

• 38:54Speaker 03

  There are a lot of problems.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Talking about a platform that is worried about software that is approaching. What 20 decade, 20 years old, not 20, but at least at least 15.

• 39:04Speaker 03

  Microsoft, I don't think people give enough charity to the actual

• 39:09Speaker 03

  problem that Microsoft has to deal with, which is that what certain organizations need and what certain governments need is not actually map to the consumer technology cycle of planned obsolescence.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  So. So why? So so it doesn't make sense.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Make a new product that's so compelling that people want to use it and let the shit that needs to be backwards compatible. Run the old stuff and charge them a maintenance fee after 10 years to keep it.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  That's that's that's actually exactly what I'm saying. I think Windows should become just a desktop.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  Operating system, very minimalist. Basically, all it needs to do is run old shit that people are going to upgrade.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:49Speaker 03

  I think, I think nobody really wants a laptop that can transform and do all this weird shit.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Oh, I do.

• 39:57Speaker 03

  Do you really?

• 39:58Speaker 01

  I, I do. I, everyone I've tried has been pretty bad, but I, I really want it.

• 40:02Speaker 03

  You want a laptop that you can like, uh, have Excel on and then you want it to transform into a tablet that you do fun things on? I don't think, I don't think, I think maybe two people. I think maybe two people want to do that.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 40:15Nilay Patel?

  It was good. No.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  No, I totally want that.

• 40:17Speaker 03

  When you want to do something on a tablet, you pull out your iPad mini or something.

• 40:19Nilay Patel?

  I have never once wanted to reach out and touch the screen on my laptop.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Really?

• 40:23Nilay Patel?

  It has never occurred to me.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Uh, I, after using a Surface Pro three for a week, I, I was touching the screen all the time.

• 40:30Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but because you, you can't, you like, this computer, like my laptop is completely functional and designed to be used with like this gigantic, well-functioning trackpad, right? The Surface Pro three is not functional unless you touch the screen.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:47Nilay Patel?

  Like it, it just trains you to like, move your hands around more. It doesn't train you to be even more productive.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Well.

• 40:55Nilay Patel?

  Like, you have to, it's when does it? You have to like, you have to do all the screen side, like, I have one in my house too. I use it.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:01Nilay Patel?

  Um, but it doesn't inspire me to want to use it more. It's just like, ah, here's a computer that makes me use two input met.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  What, what, like, the answer, I know.

• 41:11Nilay Patel?

  Got it.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  The answer to, do you want a fancy laptop is always yes, because the idea of it is amazing.

• 41:21Speaker 03

  No, that's, that's, that's a bullshit that people in the, the tech report, reportage.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Let me finish.

• 41:27Speaker 03

  It's a lie. It's a lie. I'm going to say it's a lie.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  I know it's a lie. It's what I'm trying to get to. Let me finish my sentence. It's a cool lie. It's an amazing cool lie. And we want to believe that someone's going to figure it out.

• 41:40Nilay Patel?

  No one's going to ever figure it out. It's fundamentally two different things. And like one day, uh.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  See, you say that, but like the tran, the, the basic Asus Transformer, is there, if, if they just implemented that well, so that it had a decent trackpad, decent keyboard, you know, really nice screen, it folded up like a laptop, but if you just wanted to disconnect it, you'd have two pieces and you'd be like, oh, I got two pieces though. What's going on? But there was actually like an iPad. You, it sucked because you'd have two pieces, because whatever, but.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  That would be great. And then it would need to switch software modes. It's what Windows 8, or sorry, Windows 10 is doing. You plug it in, computer, you pull it out, I'm a tablet now.

• 42:22Speaker 03

  That, what you just said is not simple for most people. The idea of combining the thing that you do your work on and the thing that you pull out of your backpack because you want to play Angry Birds or whatever, I'm like.

• 42:36Nilay Patel?

  Also, I don't know that. No, and I just want to point out, like iPad sales have totally stalled. Yep. And that since I've had a gigantic phone, I've barely used my iPad. Right. Right? So like, building software for like, and then they're going to turn it into this tablet, is like, yeah.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  So what do you think with these 12.9 inch iPad rumors?

• 42:56Nilay Patel?

  I think that's where they have to go with the iPad. Right? Like they, like I, it's in my iPhone 6 Plus review.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  But you guys have just been making the case that the iPad is for consumer stuff.

• 43:06Nilay Patel?

  What I'm, yes, I think the, the iPad, like tablets, in order to continue to be viable, have to turn into more and more like consumer level laptop replacements, right? Which is like what Chromebooks are. That's like Chromebooks terrify.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Apparently they've got half of the education market, they claim today.

• 43:22Nilay Patel?

  Oh, that's something. But like, that's what Chromebooks are, right? Chromebooks are consumer grade laptop replacements. And then people have phones, right? And like, that's the, the universe of problems that those devices solve. But like, a Windows work laptop that you like turn into an iPad, it's not solve that problem that same way. Right? So like, it makes sense to turn the iPad into more of like, an enterprise focused device for like, a bunch of enterprise applications, but not Excel. It makes sense to turn the iPad into like, the only computer you need at your house, grandma, because it's more powerful now and can do a little, a few more things. And the screen's even bigger. It does not make sense to be like, here's our weird 10 inch screen that can do everything. Because that's not.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Cause you don't believe in.

• 44:09Speaker 03

  That's a more complicated user experience than having discreet places for the things that you do.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Right. But the idea is when you disconnect the keyboard, it turns into that discreet place.

• 44:18Nilay Patel?

  Right, but I.

• 44:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, not even to mention that like no one solved the battery problem yet and who actually wants to have one device to do everything.

• 44:26Nilay Patel?

  No, I mean like I literally, I watch Becky like basically every night. Becky and I, we have like just one TV in our house, right? We sit there and then we fight over it and then I win because I didn't bring my laptop home. This is true. This is what, pretty much why I don't bring my laptop home. And then I win, like I watch whatever garbage I want to watch. And she watches The Good Wife on her iPad while doing her email on her laptop. And she wants that experience.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  She just wants a second screen to have the video playing on.

• 44:51Nilay Patel?

  Right, but she actually now chooses the iPad like all the time. Like she, this is like, and she has an iPad too. She won't even let me like upgrade her to like a new one.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  What?

• 45:00Nilay Patel?

  Screw it. She's like, whatever, I just use this for Netflix. So she doesn't care. Uh, and like that is like a big deal for her. Like she has her laptop and her iPad and her phone and they're all doing different things.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:11Nilay Patel?

  She's very comfortable with the roles all those things are playing. And I will say like I've had like the six plus and I use it more than ever. And I'm like, the only time I bring up my iPad is when I want to like watch a video and like do some other crap. And like the idea that anyone doesn't want that segmentation. Like that makes-

• 45:31Speaker 03

  I think very, very few people don't want it. And those are the people who get excited about the idea of coming up with this really weird rigged system to like play computer games on their television with their PC in another room like it's that crowd. I think.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  That's garbage. I just, people, if they can find, if they can buy one thing instead of two or three things.

• 45:54Nilay Patel?

  But those things always suck.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  They have always sucked, but isn't that a reason to want to see companies like Microsoft try to fix that? And make it not suck? And I'm not saying Windows 10 is the answer, but I am saying, give them a chance, guys. Let them try.

• 46:11Nilay Patel?

  I'm saying when you try to-

• 46:12Speaker 03

  They have the idea, they just need to kill the desktop and stop being held hostage by a small-

• 46:16Nilay Patel?

  Metro, they need to just call it Metro. I mean like they-

• 46:20Speaker 03

  I like Windows Modern more than Metro, which is what they call it now.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  That's terrible. No, you don't. It's not called Windows Modern anymore.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  Uh, it's called Windows Store.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Windows Store, Windows Store Apps.

• 46:29Nilay Patel?

  God, what kind of terrible-

• 46:30Speaker 03

  That's not called Windows Store App. Their design language is called Microsoft Design Language. Actually, I think that's what it's called.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  It's Store Apps. They always call them Store Apps. Told you.

• 46:39Nilay Patel?

  It's definitely

• 46:40Speaker 03

  I'll bring up the Wikipedia page for you and owe you.

• 46:43Nilay Patel?

  What does that mean? That means like some like, like IT manager in Kansas was like, "I gotta update the Wikipedia page." Do you think Microsoft?

• 46:53Speaker 03

  Metro design language.

• 46:54Nilay Patel?

  They should have called it Metro.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  That's deprecated.

• 46:56Nilay Patel?

  Here's what I know about Microsoft.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  We're not bringing up they should have called it Metro anymore. We have to put a ban on that on the Vergecast.

• 47:01Nilay Patel?

  No, this is just a phrase.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  All we ever say, every single time, we're like, "Oh, they should have called it Metro."

• 47:05Speaker 03

  In September 2012, Microsoft Design Language was adopted as the official name for the design.

• 47:09Nilay Patel?

  Here's what I know about Metro. The phrase we should all use for decisions that should have been made, but weren't made and now we regret, is you should have paid the grocery store. That's it. That's the legacy of Microsoft. That's the legacy of Windows 8. They should have paid the goddamn grocery store. Because they didn't and now everything got confused and they wouldn't split it off.

• 47:29Speaker 03

  Avocados were on sale.

• 47:31Nilay Patel?

  Avocados were on sale for the first time in like months, man. They were so expensive before. Uh, they were. There was, uh, avocados were very expensive all summer. It's true. It's a fact, I know.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  I love guac.

• 47:43Nilay Patel?

  Who doesn't?

• 47:46Speaker 03

  Whatever.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 47:47Nilay Patel?

  Burn.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Burn. Off, off, off, uh, off like Liz, just let us know that.

• 47:51Nilay Patel?

  Guacamole burn by Liz Lopatto.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Guacamole burns by Liz Lopatto. New book coming out this fall.

• 47:59Speaker 03

  Listen, have fun when your state breaks off from the continental United States and Kurt Russell is the only one who will save you.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 48:06Nilay Patel?

  No, that would be super fun. I don't know what you're talking about. Like, that's not an insult. That's more like a promise of good times to be had. Like, soon you'll be floating away on a glorious island and Kurt Russell will be there.

• 48:18Speaker 03

  Which is, in fact, a giant prison.

• 48:21Speaker 03

  Sounds, sounds great.

• 48:22Nilay Patel?

  As long as Kurt Russell's there.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  I'm just gonna put this out there and just gotta let it sit for just a second. Real quick.

• 48:28Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Just let it sit after I put it out there.

• 48:30Nilay Patel?

  All right, I promise I'll let it sit.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  California is better than New York.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  That's where I was born, so I have to agree.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  One full second of sitting you were supposed to leave it.

• 48:37Speaker 03

  I was agreeing with you. I was born there.

• 48:39Nilay Patel?

  Here's what I know about both these places. Here are some facts.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  All right.

• 48:43Nilay Patel?

  Uh, California is super weird.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Here's some facts.

• 48:49Nilay Patel?

  California is one of the weirdest places I've ever been. Uh, it makes no sense as a state. It should be like eight states.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Oh, you're, you're with that crowd?

• 48:57Nilay Patel?

  I'm absolutely, like, Los Angeles should just be like a state. Like, just, you just govern yourselves.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 49:03Nilay Patel?

  And then there's like, San Francisco should be like, just exploded. Wow.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  The source of like everything that's sitting on this table and every piece of like gadgetry.

• 49:13Speaker 03

  No, this is from, this is from Washington State.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Designed by Apple in California.

• 49:18Nilay Patel?

  No, San Francisco is really nice. I just, I feel competitive with San Francisco because we're New York.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Because you, you know, they're better.

• 49:24Nilay Patel?

  San Francisco is like Milwaukee with rich people.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  I actually didn't say San Francisco.

• 49:28Nilay Patel?

  Like, that's what San Francisco is. San Francisco is like a tiny city that like thinks it's really arty. Uh, and it's very confused about like, like how big of a city it is. Right? Like Milwaukee is like really confused about how big of a city it is.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:42Nilay Patel?

  But always knows that Chicago, Chicago is there to be bigger and better.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  San Francisco, good baseball team.

• 49:47Nilay Patel?

  That's fine. I mean, if you like baseball.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 49:51Nilay Patel?

  The, the most archaic of sports. Baseball is like an old time sport.

• 49:58Nilay Patel?

  Soccer, I, yeah, I mean, they're, they're both like, what sports can we make up using only the tools available? And it was like rocks and sticks and they made up soccer and baseball. I'm sorry.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Where were we?

• 50:10Nilay Patel?

  Uh, I was making fun of San Francisco. No, I'm just saying, California is a weird place. New York is an even weirder place. Like New York City should be a state and the rest of New York would be happy.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:20Nilay Patel?

  Um, and then everyone should move to Chicago, which is the best city in America. It's just fact, it's a fact I know.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  Sure it is.

• 50:30Nilay Patel?

  It's, it's really nice. I was just there. I remember the time when I lived in like a large apartment and had a car. Food was reasonably cheap.

• 50:38Speaker 03

  You have terrible ideas.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:39Nilay Patel?

  What, living in a nice home with a fancy automobile?

• 50:42Speaker 03

  No, cities becoming states. Eventually it's gonna like go slippery slope. It's gonna be go like, oh, fuck that co-op over there. I'm gonna be my own state.

• 50:48Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 50:49Speaker 03

  And this apartment building.

• 50:50Nilay Patel?

  That's right. It's time for the pendulum to swing back from nations to city-states.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  City-states. I like that.

• 50:56Nilay Patel?

  What if, like, what if, like, you know, like Venice and Rome, like at the time?

• 50:59Speaker 03

  Texas.

• 51:00Nilay Patel?

  Where?

• 51:00Speaker 03

  Texas.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  No, Texas, the, no.

• 51:03Nilay Patel?

  No, cause there'd be the. The worst sin city map of all time is Texas the city.

• 51:09Speaker 03

  Pretty good national parks.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Oh, but like imagine, imagine if Austin were an independent city-state in the middle of Texas and had to like fight off. But like, I mean, literally.

• 51:16Nilay Patel?

  And it's doing that.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  And they had to build walls and like fight off invaders.

• 51:21Nilay Patel?

  I think they do that.

• 51:23Speaker 03

  They lost that already to the brands.

• 51:25Nilay Patel?

  The brands.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  The brands.

• 51:26Nilay Patel?

  Uh, you know, I was saying to, uh, Lockhart Steele, our editorial director today, I cannot see or hear the word brands without envisioning a hashtag in front of it.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:35Nilay Patel?

  Like, that's just where we've.

• 51:36Speaker 03

  I can't see without hearing Casey's voice.

• 51:37Nilay Patel?

  Brands.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Brands.

• 51:38Nilay Patel?

  Uh, you know, that, so, nobody knows the story. So, uh, Nathan Ingram, who works in San Francisco with Casey Newton, uh, recorded.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Superior state.

• 51:47Nilay Patel?

  I mean, whatever. Look, our office has, uh, cell phone in it. Um, uh, recorded Casey saying the word brands.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Over and over.

• 51:55Nilay Patel?

  Remixed it into a series of, of sounds, basically. And today, uh, screenshotted his SoundCloud account going over data because people keep playing the brands.

• 52:12Nilay Patel?

  I don't know what that is or what it means about America or society or the internet. I just know that Casey saying brands like echoes through my head. Brands.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Brands.

• 52:22Nilay Patel?

  That's pretty good. Alright, so let's talk about the one thing that's the most important. We've got seven minutes left on this.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Seven minutes left.

• 52:29Speaker 03

  Windows 7 coincidence?

• 52:31Nilay Patel?

  Yes. Gamergate.

• 52:36Nilay Patel?

  What? I just like doing conspiracy theories. Alright, here's, here's, here's some facts. Dieter and I have made a bet.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:44Nilay Patel?

  It's a very important bet.

• 52:45Speaker 03

  If this is Vikings Packers bullshit.

• 52:46Nilay Patel?

  It's Vikings.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  It is.

• 52:47Nilay Patel?

  You can leave. Yeah, you can get out of here. Here's what I know. Tonight, the Packers play the Vikings.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  And they're going to be embarrassed.

• 52:56Nilay Patel?

  You have, just, it's gonna be fine, Dieter. I mean, I, I know that you have to put on this show, but it's, I know the truth. Uh, but we've made a bet. So, Dieter is from Minnesota. He's Vikings fan. I am from Wisconsin. I'm a Packers fan.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 53:06Nilay Patel?

  And, uh, the, the, the, the loser, it's funny that you don't actually win anything in this bet. You can only.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, what do you?

• 53:14Nilay Patel?

  You really can only lose. Uh, the loser of the bet.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  No, you win, the winner gets to watch the loser.

• 53:21Nilay Patel?

  Ruin our company by being not productive. Uh, the loser of the bet has to use a BlackBerry Passport for two weeks.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  As, I thought it was a month.

• 53:30Nilay Patel?

  I don't, I, I'm actually worried that we will destroy the Verge if we're that unproductive for that length of time. Like, I'm really worried. Like, both of us have jobs to do.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:41Nilay Patel?

  Uh, but the, uh.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  And not, not just use, but use as your primary phone.

• 53:47Nilay Patel?

  Yes.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:49Nilay Patel?

  I mean, I'm definitely gonna have a backup after three days.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  No. I mean, I will have a backup that I will like only have to check text messages every few hours because I switched Verizon and you can't put a SIM in the thing.

• 54:01Speaker 03

  I work with the most pompous trolls.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  On the planet. When I was in San Francisco for GDC, like a year, it was 2012.

• 54:11Nilay Patel?

  Wait, hold on. Hot kettle.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:13Nilay Patel?

  Like pompous trolls?

• 54:15Speaker 03

  Listen, listen. When I was in San Francisco.

• 54:16Nilay Patel?

  I want to point this out. TC spent the last week trolling people by playing videos on our telepresence robot.

• 54:24Speaker 03

  That's not pompous, that's effective. Anyway.

• 54:27Nilay Patel?

  Telepresence robot, scarily quiet.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Super duper quiet.

• 54:30Nilay Patel?

  Just rolls up behind you and then like the girl from The Ring is just like playing in your face.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. I'm good at it.

• 54:36Nilay Patel?

  Good at it.

• 54:37Speaker 03

  I should be a drone operator.

• 54:38Nilay Patel?

  We have not done a good job of using the telepresence robot for work. Here's the problem is all right, we have a review unit from Double Robotics. And it relies, it's basically an iPad on a Segway.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  I'm gonna mute your computer.

• 54:49Nilay Patel?

  Do it. Basically an iPad in the Segway.

• 54:54Nilay Patel?

  Thanks, Will. Thanks, buddy.

• 54:59Nilay Patel?

  It's just very quiet. It's just a very quiet robot. So all it can really do is show you frightening images until Double sends us a speaker that makes it louder.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:07Nilay Patel?

  I'm just saying you're a troll. You're like a professional.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  You were gonna go with a different word there.

• 55:12Nilay Patel?

  No, I was gonna say troll. I didn't want to say pompous because it's mean.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  Anyway, the point is.

• 55:16Nilay Patel?

  You called me pompous, but I didn't call you that.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  The point is that Eli is so afraid that the Packers are going to lose tonight, that he won't go for the full month that we originally proposed. He only had to keep it to two weeks.

• 55:29Nilay Patel?

  Straight up, straight up.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Straight up with the spread we were asked.

• 55:31Nilay Patel?

  Straight up. I mean, look, you're turning Christian ponder. Like, you shouldn't be pushing this.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  We don't know that yet.

• 55:37Nilay Patel?

  I think.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Christian Ponder did beat the Packers at Lambeau to get rid of your guys' bye and knock the Bears out of the playoffs, once upon a time, as I recall.

• 55:47Nilay Patel?

  I hear what you're saying. I hear all the words you're saying.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:49Nilay Patel?

  And what I want to hear from you is, oh crap, I have to use this Blackberry for two weeks.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Which is why we have the bet.

• 55:56Nilay Patel?

  Okay, so fair. That's the bet. It's happening. Uh, this has been, I don't even know what TC's doing on his computer. Actually, watching TC use a computer.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  He's pompously trolling us is what he's doing.

• 56:05Nilay Patel?

  You've never seen like a troll at work?

• 56:07Speaker 01

  We should just do a video of like TC using a laptop to see what it's like. It's like a window into the mind of the Internet's worst troll. He's a beneficent troll. He's not an evil troll.

• 56:19Nilay Patel?

  Uh, okay.

• 56:20Speaker 03

  Chaotic neutral.

• 56:21Nilay Patel?

  Uh, somebody's asking me on the video podcast feed, uh, no, we're not doing that.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Not for a while.

• 56:25Nilay Patel?

  We're doing the single camera thing. If you do want to watch us.

• 56:27Speaker 03

  Wait, are people watching us right now?

• 56:28Nilay Patel?

  People are watching us right now.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  We're live.

• 56:29Nilay Patel?

  Uh, we are not feeding videos into the feed, uh, but if you want to watch us on video, you can absolutely just come to these posts and the livestream will be there.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:37Nilay Patel?

  Um, but that was it. That was Vergecast. It was wonderful having you as always. Liz, you're great. You're here.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  She's, uh, Ms. Lopatto.

• 56:44Nilay Patel?

  Ms. Lopatto.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  L-O-P.

• 56:45Nilay Patel?

  Tell you, man, we hire people on, uh, on Twitter. Twitter feeds alone, which is a terrible way to hire people, but it worked out this time. Uh, and that was it. You can leave a comment in the post. You can send us emails. No one really knows where Vergecast of the verge.com goes.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  It goes to Ross Miller.

• 57:01Nilay Patel?

  It just goes to Ross.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  And we can't change it.

• 57:04Nilay Patel?

  You can just email Ross directly if you'd like. Uh, just a lot of confusing, uh, like archaic systems in place. Uh, and you can also tweet at us, which is probably the best way to get ahold of us, actually. TC's done with Windows 10 on his MacBook. And we're done.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  You can find him on Twitter as Chillmage.

• 57:21Nilay Patel?

  Chillmage, Backlon, uh, I'm reckless. So none of us have good Twitter handles, but this, except for Liz, Ms. Lopatto, which I just figured out, by the way. Dude, I was like, what's her first M? What is it? It must really start with an M. And nope, you're just.

• 57:43Nilay Patel?

  List is like, alright. Alright, that was it. That was the show. Thank you for tuning in. We'll be back next Thursday at 4:30. Uh, yeah, that's it. Bye.