Google I/O announcements and iPad Pro M1 review

In part 1 of this week’s episode, Nilay and Dieter talk with deputy editor Dan Seifert about Google I/O and reviews for the M1 iMac and iPad Pro. Further reading: Google I/O 2021: the 14 biggest announcements Android 12 preview: first look at Google’s radical new design Android 12 public beta is now available: here’s how to install it Google showed off its next-generation AI by talking to Pluto and a paper airplane Apple iMac M1 review: the all-in-one for almost everyone iPad Pro (2021) review: Mini LED, major improvement Apple’s redesigned MacBook Pros with next-gen in-house chips could arrive early this summer Apple’s $549 AirPods Max can’t play lossless Apple Music — even when plugged in Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Nilay Patel?

  Two-part Vergecast this week. Here in part one, Dan Siefer is going to join the show. We're going to do Google I/O, including Android 12, Android Wear merging with Tyson, plus our M1 reviews. That's the new iMac with an M1 chip, the iPad Pro with an M1 chip, whatever Apple's doing in lossless music. Then we got part two coming later today. Addie Robertson and I are going to talk about everything Epic versus Apple, including Tim Cook on the stand. That's the Vergecast, coming up now and later.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Colin Martin, head of fixed income research and strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring you fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Colin Martin, head of fixed income research and strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring you fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:58Nilay Patel?

  Hello and welcome to Vergecast, the flagship podcast of natural language interpretation. See, it's very topical. I'm your friend Eli. Dieter Bohn is here. I'm your mom. Wow. It's like talking to a paper airplane, Dieter, let me tell you. Dan Seepert is here.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 2:17Nilay Patel?

  So here's what we're gonna do. The Apple Epic Trial is ongoing as we're recording, and on Friday, Tim Cook is going to take the stand. So we're gonna split this episode into two parts. Dan and Dieter and I are gonna go through Google, I/O, Android news, Wear News, big, massive, Wear News, Wear OS News. We got reviews of the new iMac with M1 chip. Dieter reviewed the iPad Pro. There's Apple lawsuit. We got all this stuff. We got all kinds of stuff to talk about. Then Addy and I, after Tim Cook is done on the stand on Friday, we're gonna record a bonus episode to cover that, because what is the point of talking about the Epic Apple Trial?

• 2:59Nilay Patel?

  If we don't talk about Tim Cook on the stand, and I don't want to wait a whole week until next week.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  The real reason that we're not doing Epic right now is, as we're recording, we're doing this on Wednesday a little bit early. Craig Federighi just referred to the Mac as a car, not a truck or a bicycle. And Eli doesn't want to lose the entire episode to me just losing my mind over computer metaphors.

• 3:19Nilay Patel?

  I will say this. Craig Federighi basically implied the iPhone is for babies, and using the Mac is very dangerous. Really, he was like, the Mac has an unacceptable amount of malware, the iPhone, even an infant can use it. We're trying to make the Mac safe. Like, they're in the weeds of what makes a Mac different from a phone, and Craig's answer is basically the Mac is too dangerous. It's real. So that's going on now, and then Tim Cook on Friday. I just didn't want to, I didn't want to talk about it before Tim Cook, and then... If we did our normal show, I didn't want to wait a week. So Addy and I are going to do a whole trial focused episode later on Friday. So this episode is just about I O and Apple

• 4:04Nilay Patel?

  reviews, but I want to start where we always start with COVID. Lots of COVID news this week, actually, as vaccination ramps up, there's a lot of interest in tracking vaccination and continuing to test and continuing to contact trace. We've got a whole story about those tools and why people are uncomfortable using them to control the spread of COVID. I completely understand why people are uncomfortable with digital tracking technology, but there's a lot of conversation about how to use those tools, the countries that they're being used in and how effective they are. So that's a great story. You should go read that. COVID is running rampant in India. It is a disaster. It is, people are dying, people are getting sick at unacceptable rates. It's happened in my own family that people have gotten sick and died. And then

• 4:47Nilay Patel?

  there's a lot of conversation about patent waivers and vaccine manufacturing waivers in India. We've got a long story from a reporter in India who friends with us about the Indian COVID crisis and specifically why, just like wide opening manufacturing will definitely help. It should help. Patent waivers are important, and I think the Biden administration should grant them. But there, there's a laundry list of issues that created that problem. And so we wanted to dive into that. And then Nicole wrote a great piece. And I think this is just, as we go through it, and as we get vaccinated, we come out of it, there's a lot of focus on what you as a person should do to manage your COVID risk and like your individual choices. And Nicole has a great piece about how focusing on what individuals can do does not solve public health problems. And like, we've really learned that a lot through COVID. So that's

• 5:32Nilay Patel?

  all on the site. If you're not vaccinated, go get vaccinated. The CDC says you can ditch your mask. Obviously, that's controversial, too. We've got a story about that. But if you're not vaxxed, please go get vaccinated. It would be great to have this all over with. And that brings me to I/O, which I would note, I/O is held on Google's campus. And if you watch the stream, you notice people were socially distanced. They were outside and they were wearing masks. No chances taken by Google doing this, but lots of announcements at I/O. Dieter, take us through them.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  The biggest stuff is sort of the traditional stuff that you expect. It's Android 12. It's Google showing off a bunch of futuristic AI demos. It is, you know, that stuff. But some of the new stuff, they've got a big iteration of Workspace. They surprised a bunch of us by actually doing something with Wear, Android Wear, Wear OS, whatever you want to call it. I guess we're calling it Wear, but it's unclear. They remembered it exists and they're doing something with it. And then a bunch of Google Photos updates to distract you from the fact that unlimited photo storage is going away in a little less than two weeks. Bunch of Maps updates, a big, big one, which I imagine, I don't know, we're not probably

• 6:46Speaker 02

  not talking about too much, but it's, I think it's a big deal. Google Shopping is basically now going to be attached to everything Google makes. You are going to have Google Shopping retail things pop up in all sorts of new places now. Like Lens is going to be more directly pointing to it, a whole bunch of other stuff. And they're also partnering with Shopify, which, you know, I recently talked to somebody from Shopify on-

• 7:10Nilay Patel?

  Harley Finkelstein, the president.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Yes. And now, if you are, if you're a retailer on Shopify, you can like click three buttons and show up now on Google Shop. So it's a big shot across the bow at Amazon potentially. And it's also, I don't know, how often do we worry about the incentives for SEO for websites? How often do we worry about the incentives that Google has for where it ranks things? Like, I don't know, flights and whatever else. Now, Google has an entirely new set of incentives for selling stuff on the internet. And they're going to be attaching it to way more of their products. So that'll be fun. So that's like the top level overview, I think. But I think the big, big news for us to really get into is probably Android and Wear.

• 7:53Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I want to talk about some of their AI stuff. And, you know, these big ideas around multimodal search, we'll get to all of that. How could we not spend an hour talking about Google Docs? But let's start with Android. Android 12 is in public beta now. I think YouTube has already installed it. I did not have time yesterday. It looks very different. I mean, that's like the first thing Google can do. There's a part of me that says

• 8:18Nilay Patel?

  the Pixel not selling well is actually like it's a good thing in some ways. Cause if you look at the like the iOS user experience or even Samsung's user experience, they have such a huge install base. They sell so many phones that radical changes to the like interface patterns, they have to do a lot of work to get you there. Whereas Google's like, well, 10 of you have this phone. Now it works entirely differently and you can just deal with it.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, they've been doing that for years, right? They changed the how you access multitasking and stuff on the app or in the phone. Three years in a row, they changed it. And then they settled on it this time. They didn't change it this time. They just changed everything else. And so it's a lot more colorful and it's bubbly and it's, I, Dieter, I know you like it because you, you feel like it's a lot easier to use a lot of the settings buttons and the dials and what have you.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  So the, here's the thing. It's big and bubbly. We should talk about material you, Y O U, heavy sigh on that one. But like the big change, like functional change of the design is everything is just really big and everything is a little bit smoother because they've optimized the way animations work in the subsystem. Those fewer interrupts and they're using the big core less often. So battery life should be better and it's more efficient, blah, blah, blah, blah. But everything is big. I think that's more accessible, but if you like information density, you're probably going to hate it. And there's a, there's a pretty even mix of responses in the YouTube comments and on Twitter on it. Also, a lot of people saying it looks like the iPhone, which I don't understand actually very much.

• 9:51Nilay Patel?

  How does it look like the iPhone?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  I don't know. I like control panel has big round buttons, I guess.

• 9:58Nilay Patel?

  There's only so many shapes, y'all.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  I know.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  You can have a square or you can have a circle and then you can do something with the corners. Like, what do you want? Stars? They've got them. They've got weird stars. They've got like badges. The new, the new widget system is just like you can have any shape you want. It looks wackadoo. But anyway.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  I'm fine with them taking up more space and like having the buttons just be easier to hit and like less cognitive load to be like, where's the wifi button? Cause now it's like twice as big and now you just tap it. So that's an interesting idea, but I'm always interested in like new, interesting ideas in in UI. The big kerfuffle that I've seen is people trying to decide if what they want the power button to do. Cause Google tried to do a new thing with Android 11 and they've already ditched it. It used to be it would bring up like some power buttons and then Google Wallet and then home controls, but now it just brings up the assistant, which is what it does on the iPhone, which is what it does on a Galaxy phone.

• 10:55Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  So they just had to like copy everybody else there. But it was like, if you have a smart home stuff, it is a little bit more convenient to like get to it from a power button, but whatever.

• 11:06Nilay Patel?

  I mean, I think the thing for me about Material U and I thoroughly enjoyed Matthias's presentation, cause it

• 11:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:13Nilay Patel?

  In many ways it was ominous. I don't know how to describe it any other way like, like his, he's just, he's a big personality. He was wearing an insane shirt.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Big, big shirt.

• 11:25Nilay Patel?

  Like, he definitely looked like he was, he had been DMing with the mayor of Miami. You know what I'm saying? Like huge personality, big floral shirt. And he kept saying things like, now there is a color for every mood. And it's like, dude, like, why are you in my brain? Like, but the operating system.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  My favorite was, what if instead of form following function, form followed feeling?

• 11:47Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  I think was the line?

• 11:48Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I mean, there's just, there was like all these little lines in there that they were delivered with such intensity that I was like, are you?

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Panache?

• 11:58Nilay Patel?

  Like the last line could have been like, and now we will control your feelings. Like

• 12:05Nilay Patel?

  but I look at this and I look at the design across Google's products, cause this is the whole point of Material U. It's not just Android 12, it's how the apps are gonna work. It's connected to their hardware design. They're trying to unify all this aesthetic. And it is definitely less silly than Google used to be. It's far more refined. It feels more careful. Right? Like, there's a sense of, okay, we're actually gonna do the thing where the shapes of our hardware map to shapes in our software design, like a very Apple thing to do, but Google hasn't really done it. And now they've got a big plan to do it. I think, Dieter, you said everything is really big. Google's confidence that it knows what the most important information is, is like at a DNA level across the company. Like, that's

• 12:50Nilay Patel?

  what Google does. And you see how big things are. And they're like, what you really want is a big ass clock. So here's a big ass clock. And it's a very well designed, integrated with everything. And it kind of looks like your Nest Hub. And I think that's, that is a big turn for Google. And I, you reacted when I said it doesn't, it's not as silly as Google used to be. I think it's still friendly. But Google stuff used to be just like outrageously silly.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. So what's funny about it is, it's like, this is the, the last nail in the coffin of the droid aesthetic, right? This is so far from like, even Honeycomb, that, you know, Mattia Stortai worked on. There's this whole, like, I don't know, cool computer nerd vibe, right? Like, the gamer vibe, or whatever, to Android.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  Very Tony Stark back then.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, Tony Stark. Yeah. And like, that's all gone. And so when compared to some of the old stuff in Android, I think it's more playful. But you're right that it is refined in a way that OG Google playfulness was never refined.

• 13:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I mean, it's just like, not primary colors and big silly shapes anymore. Like, I think it looks really good. I think one of the big problems Google has is that nobody buys these phones. So it's a, it's like an opportunity for them to experiment way faster than anybody else can. And like, the hardware design and the app design and, you know, the Chromecast TV, or the, what is it? The Google TV with Chromecast, or whatever it's called now?

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:12Nilay Patel?

  The Chromecast Ultra with Google TV. Android Chrome Search Docs TV. Good job. Whatever it's called. You can see that, that little piece of hardware, like, connects to this aesthetic. They're building a remote app into the, like, they're starting to do all the connections. But so many of their apps and services run on other people's operating systems. So they're disconnected from like, the iOS aesthetic. They're disconnected from the Windows aesthetic. And I think the big question for Google is always, how do

• 14:44Speaker 02

  They're disconnected from the Samsung aesthetic.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  So how do you, how do you like put your, your company's interface identity into the world when it's always sitting next to something else? That is the primary UI design of, of that hardware.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  Well, and how much of this is gonna get on Samsung? Or, you know, Xiaomi or whatever, they're gonna encourage everybody to adopt material you in their own, like, you know, personal, beautiful way. But is Samsung gonna do that? If Google's actually successful at getting app developers to update their widgets, because they haven't done it since 2012, which, sorry, app developers, but chances are you haven't updated your widget, your Android widget since 2012. Will that now look weird on a Samsung phone? Because it's like designed for a pixel, like, because no one, no, people are gonna want a design to have it look good on a Samsung phone. So the only question that really matters is what does it look like on a pixel? Is what does it look like on a Samsung?

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:37Speaker 03

  We won't know for six months.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Were we expecting a new Pixel at this? There were some rumors, right? And then they didn't do it.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, they've announced the Google Pixel 5A. Like, they said, hey, we're doing this phone. And, you know, a logical person might have said, oh, you've got this big event. A lot of press is paying attention to it. Maybe you want to slip a hardware announcement into there. They did not do that.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. They announced the phone, if you don't recall, by denying that it was canceled. That was how they announced it.

• 16:05Speaker 03

  There was rumors that, oh, this phone that everyone expects Google to probably make is not gonna happen. And then Google was like, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're doing it. We're releasing it in two markets. We'll talk to you later. And then, you know, we haven't heard anything since. So the Pixel 5A is still TBD. You would assume that it's got to be soon. It's almost June. It is a different generation than what we expect them to do in the fall with the Pixel 6 and the rumored new processor and everything like that. So you assume that's gotta be soon. The other piece of hardware that's long been rumored now is new Pixel buds that are called some kind of Pixel buds A. So there was two pieces of hardware that you maybe could have seen here. Didn't happen. It was an entirely software services show.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  I believe Google might have telegraphed that they wanted to announce the 5A at the usual time, which may mean that they are in fact waiting for the fall. And so we'll have another one of these wacky situations where there's a Pixel 6 and a Pixel 5A at the same time. Which will be. Exhausting. The third piece of rumored hardware, which there's much less information about is the Pixel Watch, but that is, we should probably get through the rest of Android before we start having emotions about wearables.

• 17:11Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Google's like adding little features to Android. I'm always interested like what makes it in the system and what makes it into Samsung's version of Android or Jamies or whoever. So what are the the system level features they've added to Android 12?

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Other than moving the stuff around, which nobody adopted, they have added new privacy permissions. So there's a little indicator for camera and microphone. There is a new approximate location thing. So instead of giving someone your pinpoint location, you can give them your neighborhood. There's a new privacy dashboard that tells you how often your stuff has been accessed. I don't know if that'll make it. And there is a new Android TV remote, which may or may not make it to other phones, but it will be built in at an OS level. And there's also buttons in quick settings to just turn off, like there's switches, your camera, your microphone. I think that's actually pretty cool. It just, the apps think they have camera access, but they don't, which is kind of clever.

• 18:08Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I think that's really smart. I mean, I like the idea that these two companies are now racing each other for privacy features. And I really like the, we're gonna let the apps think they have it. And every time they call it, we're gonna ask you again. Because it, a lot of people say no and forget, and then they have no idea why things are broken. So I think this is really smart.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  The other privacy thing, I was expecting a non-answer from Google, but they gave me a "we'll tell you later this year" answer, which is some kind of app tracking for ads in the same way Apple has ATT and Chrome is doing Flock.

• 18:42Nilay Patel?

  Oh my god.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Privacy Sandbox. There's gonna be some answer for Android later this year, but they don't have it today. So that's, that's something to watch out for.

• 18:51Nilay Patel?

  And before I O, there was some reporting, Times Journal, et cetera, that Google doesn't really know how to handle the cookies flock tracking debate because their entire business is selling ads. And I think this is a very unique dynamic for Google. They're also under enormous amount of antitrust pressure. So if they do the thing everyone wants them to do, which is turn off most tracking and just use its first party data set, they have anti-competitively foreclosed other people from running advertising networks in their browser and on their phone.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:28Nilay Patel?

  Do you think this is a problem? You probably don't. Do I think it's a problem? I don't think it's a problem. Do the ad tech vendors think it is a problem? They definitely think it's a problem and they're like, get me on the phone with Europe. We're going to shut Google down. And that is just the weirdest situation for Google to be in.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, if you're worried that Google won't be able to figure out how to target ads to you if they don't have third party cookies and ad app tracking, I'll just say to you the thing that Casey Newton said to me, which is they can talk to Pluto. They're going to be fine. They're going to figure it out. The question is, will they figure it out for everybody else or not? And who knows? The last thing I guess for Android is we should talk about the Android private compute core.

• 20:11Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's a core, right? It's a real core.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Not hardware. Remember, no hardware. It is a special sandbox for running machine learning things that Google thinks you will think is creepy. So it's smart chips that analyze, you know, how you talk to give you smart replies. It's what music is playing. And I get the impression it's more stuff. They're like, they made this thing so that they could do more machine learning stuff in the future that they know would, you know, creep you out a little bit. So everything in the box has no network access and apps can only communicate it via very limited APIs. Speaking of stuff that I expect from the future, they implied that that was one of the reasons they moved the Google Assistant button to the power button so that it could do more contextually aware stuff based on whatever screen you're on. Cause it's easier to just hit the power button

• 20:59Speaker 02

  and ask about the screen that you're looking at than it is to swipe up from the corner. Actually, swiping up from the corner was always a terrible idea and I'm glad that nobody bothered doing it except for Google. Cause what a fiasco that gesture was.

• 21:12Nilay Patel?

  I did it by accident a lot and I always feel like, oh, this doesn't, you have nothing to say to me about this Twitter feed.

• 21:19Speaker 03

  I will say, you know, first beta, very early, you can do both. Currently, you can have the power button launch assistant. You can also do the corner gesture.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  If you, if you have the power button launch assistant, Dan, how do you turn the phone off?

• 21:37Speaker 03

  Uh, that's a good question. Let's find out. All right.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  Oh, boy.

• 21:41Speaker 03

  I, I don't know. I'm holding the phone.

• 21:45Speaker 03

  Oh, no, there's gotta be, there's gotta be the volume thing. Nope, that's a screenshot. I know how to use phones.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  No, it's not there. My understanding is that you, you have to turn it off again if you want to turn the phone off. Eventually, if you look closely at the screenshots in my article, there is going to be a power menu in the bottom of the quick settings. So there'll be like edit quick settings, go to all settings, and then there's a tiny little power button there to go to power settings.

• 22:08Speaker 03

  The Samsung way. I hate that way. I just want to use the power button to turn off.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Well, I like the Death Grip way that, that Apple does, although I hit the screenshot accidentally, but, um, yeah, whatever. Who wants to turn their phone off anyway? Come on.

• 22:21Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I mean, this is like, it's like, kind of, you only want to turn it off when it's like crashing and most, most of these phones like will eventually recognize they're in some sort of death loop and just like restart themselves. Yeah. So maybe the way is actually no buttons. Here's my Steve Jobs approach to this problem. No buttons at all.

• 22:37Speaker 03

  It's for babies.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Actually, can I, can I tell you a story?

• 22:43Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Palm OS, when it crashed, they would, unless they knew, unless they knew what it was and that you needed to do something about it, they would just let it crash and restart it and never tell you. Including rebooting the entire phone in some cases. Like, they would just, they would, they just, it chose not to show error messages because nobody knows what to do with their messages. So they just let apps crash in the background and reboot.

• 23:04Nilay Patel?

  Like, that's what, uh, like, uh, Echo devices do this, right? Like, Amazon Echo devices are like constantly restarting themselves and no one ever knows.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  That, that's also how a certain folding device that recently came into my life behaved.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  It just reboots.

• 23:19Nilay Patel?

  But it's like motor, it like flaps open and shuts like goodbye.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  You close it and you open it and it just is like, I'm gonna restart.

• 23:26Nilay Patel?

  All right. So that's Android 12, a bunch of stuff. We'll see. There's like other little stuff like Google Photos adding this like locked folder for pictures.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:33Nilay Patel?

  Which is great.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Which they're like, yeah, if you're, if you're like taking pictures of a puppy to give to your child. Yeah, that's what it's for.

• 23:41Nilay Patel?

  That's great. No, it's a good feature. Like, I think that stuff is neat. There's other stuff that's kind of like more, I don't know, it's less tangibly part of Android 12. Like they're updating their camera algorithms to handle dark skin better to do it. There's stuff that's coming that will affect in particular, the pixel experience and hopefully spread out to the rest of Android. I think that's great. But the real news, Steve, the real news.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:08Nilay Patel?

  Samsung and Google are bringing their smartwatch platforms together. Yeah, I put in a live blog that there are 60 people who care about this and the tweet got like, I retweeted somebody who took a screenshot. I got 95 likes. So it was off. It was off by 30%, but it was still only 95 likes.

• 24:28Nilay Patel?

  But this is sort of a big deal. Like Tyson was invented is like a hedge against Google. Remember there's that whole, there was like a year where people thought Samsung would split off from Google, where Google was mad.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  They'd launched a couple of phones. Yeah.

• 24:40Nilay Patel?

  Where Google was mad about Samsung just like skinning Android so hard and trying to pull them back. And now they're like, yeah, let's just emergency's operating. It's if you old, old school Vergecast heads will know when I say this is Migo, this is Migo.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  You actually, can you explain that? Cause like it takes, it's a long walk to get to this is Migo.

• 25:01Nilay Patel?

  All right. What were the constituent operating systems of Migo?

• 25:05Speaker 02

  There was MIMO.

• 25:06Nilay Patel?

  MIMO. Nokia had MIMO, which was their new smartphone platform. Intel had like.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Moblin.

• 25:12Nilay Patel?

  Moblin.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:15Nilay Patel?

  Dan remembers. Dan, Dan is trying to pretend it's not on the tip of his tongue.

• 25:21Nilay Patel?

  Anyway, there was a vision of a new Linux-based smartphone operating system from like two or three companies that they jammed together to make MAMO, M-A-E-M-O. And then it still was like not as good as iOS and then Android showed up. That is my understanding of the timeline.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  I don't know if MAMO ever made it to a shipping phone.

• 25:44Nilay Patel?

  There was one.

• 25:45Speaker 03

  Like Intel was threatening to release a phone for years and it all fell apart. They never could get their chips in order and Nokia became Windows Phone. Like Nokia had.

• 25:56Nilay Patel?

  N900 was a default MAMO.

• 25:57Speaker 03

  MIGO.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  No, they made, they made some, they made some stuff with either MAME or MIGO. I forget.

• 26:02Nilay Patel?

  The Nokia N900 ran MAMO 5.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay.

• 26:08Speaker 03

  I stand corrected, the N900 was the MAMO phone and then it died.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Designed by Peter Skilman, who helped design Palm OS and WebOS.

• 26:16Nilay Patel?

  I can't believe we're so far down this road. Anyway, when they announced this thing, so I want to, Dieter, I know you like know what is actually happening. But so they announced this thing and it brought me back to like straight up my old head gadget playing days, like what happens when two companies announce a partnership to merge their operating systems? Well, random executives you've never heard of from before show up on stage to be like, working with partner company X has been a dream with their innovations and ability to do fitness. And our innovations and ability to make hardware, the future is bright for smartwatch customers. And that is exactly what happened here. It was like a 2008 CES keynote.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  So, okay.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Wear OS, slow, not a lot of support, nobody's using it, whatever. Tyson, fast, terrible, nonexistent app support. But it's got Samsung behind it and so it's good. And also, by the way, Google bought Fitbit and so Fitbit's over in the corner. And Google insisted they didn't buy Fitbit for the software or the data. They wanted to buy it for hardware, but there's a, that's a little bit weirdness there because Fitbit is also part of the story. It's not two things coming together, it's three.

• 27:29Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  So

• 27:31Nilay Patel?

  Kinda, right?

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Kinda. So from what I can see, the base is basically still Wear OS. I watched the I O presentation on it and like, it's very Wear OS-y, it's not very Tizen-y. Samsung contributed screen stuff, they contributed how to make it more battery efficient, and they contributed how to make it work with processors better. So maybe it's like, some low-level merging of the two, but like, you write apps with Kotlin and Jetpack, which is the Android way to do good, fast apps now. It's like, it's basically Wear with a bunch of Samsung stuff put in, like, how to make watch faces.

• 28:04Nilay Patel?

  And Google had already kind of adopted a lot of the UI that Samsung had with Tizen in later versions of Wear OS already. So they were already kind of on the same path in terms of like, interactions, UI.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  And then Fitbit is gonna be the fitness, health stuff on the watch, but apparently Google Fit isn't going away, which is the dumbest decision.

• 28:24Nilay Patel?

  Really? But fortunately, S-Health, Samsung S-Health is going away. That one will not be there.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Okay, great.

• 28:32Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, they did confirm that.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Yee-haw. So everyone is promising that there's new stuff.

• 28:38Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Shell. Everyone's promising to make stuff. Samsung said, "We're doing it soon." Samsung is done making Tizen watches, apparently, uh, which is great news. All I care about is that there be a decent smartwatch option for Android users. And like, this thing is gonna, uh, you'll have a cellular option, it's gonna work apparently with more cellular networks, quote-unquote, so like, it's gonna be supported. We are assuming Google's gonna make its own thing, too. Maybe some company not called Fossil will start making these watches, too, who knows?

• 29:08Nilay Patel?

  Well, so this is, this is kind of the big question for me, right? So why do you bring these two things together? Because Wear OS has support the Android system level, so you can theoretically use it with any Android phone, but the products are bad. Sorry, I know some people like some of the products, but like, as a sweeping generalization, I'm comfortable saying the products are bad. Tizen watches are slightly better.

• 29:34Nilay Patel?

  But really only work with Samsung phones.

• 29:36Speaker 03

  Well, I think the difference is, is what this is bringing together in that I think the 90 people that are excited about it are excited because the Tizen watches, the Samsung watches generally have the best hardware in the Android option ecosystem. They have the best battery life, they have the best screens, they've got reliable clicky bezels to control them, and they are noticeably faster than the Wear OS counterparts. But they don't have, they have Bixby instead of the Google Assistant, they don't have access to any of Google's services and things like that. So if they, the dream is take Google Services, stick them on a Samsung Tizen watch, and you've got like a compelling interesting.

• 30:11Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I, I, I'm just like, take a step back from that. If you think about, if you are fully in the Bixby ecosystem, yeah, I'm cutting this down to like four people, and please call me, I just want to talk to you for hours. You're a full dog with shoes, right? Bixby is just wandering around your house. Tizen is great for you, and the Tizen watch will like complete the experience, and you're using S-Health and the Samsung email app and like, and all that stuff kind of works for you, but you're living a very lonely life because no one else is using those things. And that's fine. Maybe you're just happy alone with Bixby. That means like Samsung's total addressable market for their better hardware is just like small. And Google's market is like all of Android, but the products are bad.

• 30:55Speaker 03

  But, but I mean, when you think about it, what is Android, especially in the US?

• 30:59Nilay Patel?

  Sure.

• 30:59Speaker 03

  What is Android but Samsung, right? And so like, wearables, as we know them in the smartwatch sense, the Apple Watch, the Tizen watches, things like that, those are, you know, expensive add-ons that people buy with expensive phones. Low-cost fitness trackers are a different story, but that's not what we're talking about here. So like, this is like, Samsung sells the most Android-compatible smartwatches, right? Maybe Fitbit is up there as well, but the Wear OS ones just don't, don't sell at all. And so like,

• 31:30Speaker 02

  This is Google's opportunity here is to bring Wear or WearOS, whatever it wants to call it today, to that market of people who are buying Samsung watches, which is a real market. It's not an Apple Watch market, but it is a real market. And bring those Google services and hooks and all that stuff in to it. And then maybe the trickle on effect is if they're not buying a Samsung phone and they have a different Android phone, they can buy this watch. It's got Google's name on it. It's got Google software. They don't need six helper apps. Like if, if you have a Pixel right now and pair up a Samsung watch to it, you need to download no less than six apps to get every service working on it, which is just like kind of a wild thing. So you get a better experience on that. But really, I think it is Google's getting access to this larger market of people who are actually buying these smartwatches.

• 32:15Nilay Patel?

  But this brings me to my last kind of big question about this. You've got Samsung making watches that work better across Android. You've got Google making watches using this new operating system that work better. How much room is left? Right? Like, will Fossil compete and like show up and like continue to make these watches? Like, I would like there to be a vibrant ecosystem of competitive smartwatches that run on and are compatible and has Google services across all these phones.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  But I think that they're walking away from that. They tried that with WearOS and it bombed. LG like couldn't make it. Only other Fossil brands managed to participate. You know, like the, the thing to think about here isn't the smartwatch market in the US. It's like the 80% of all phones on worldwide are Android, you know, based on Android. And their smartwatch options are like the, like the weird low end stuff that you can get from, you know, OnePlus or what's the other one? Like a Maze Fit. They, or you, or you get a Fitbit or you're, you know, you deal with the hassle of the Samsung stuff. And so there needs to be a high end option. And, you know, I would love there to be a big, you know, competing ecosystem

• 33:28Speaker 02

  of a bunch of different manufacturers fighting to make the best thing. But I would like that for phones too. I would like to have HTC and LG, uh, you know, still in the game. But right now it's like, it's Samsung. And then if you are like really nerdy, sorry, you get a OnePlus. So you look at the market shares, OnePlus is just like.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Especially in the US. So.

• 33:53Speaker 03

  One of the most interesting things with this shift is, and I don't remember, Sina and Wired had some articles where they got to talk to some of the people that were building it. And I don't remember which one said this, but apparently watchmakers will now be able to customize the UI that's on top of Wear, which is a huge departure from how Android Wear and Wear OS were, where basically Google dictated that UI. You could not change it. You could not customize it at all. And every single watch basically looked the same as a result. They could have different watch faces and a couple of different apps, but the UI itself was the same. So now Samsung, who will definitely muck with it because they're going to make it look exactly like their ties and watches, I'm sure. Fossil, if it wanted to, these other manufacturers that maybe they play ball, could customize it and make it a different experience, kind of like what we're seeing with

• 34:37Speaker 03

  Android phones. And then it begs the question, or begins to ask, like, what is the goal in terms of like what Google wants a smartwatch experience to be? Because now hardware partners can dictate a lot of that. So it'll be kind of interesting to see how this shakes out, see what is different between how Wear OS has been that we've known for a few years now, and how this new Wear went, I suspect we'll see devices in the fall, running it.

• 35:00Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Dieter, is there a timeline?

• 35:01Speaker 02

  No. I don't know. Honestly, I think fall is pretty good. I mean, Samsung announced hardware that they're going to have watches. There's rumors that Google's going to do a watch this fall. We've seen renders that, you know, whether or not you believe them is dicey, but they could be accurate. So I do think that it's like this is the year. And I think that because it's basically Wear with Samsung being given permission to put whatever Samsung stuff they want on top of it, I actually think it's not going to be that hard to get the watch out. Like, I don't think they're making a whole new operating system here. I think it's just Wear, but faster and less crappy. You know, you could Wear on a modern Qualcomm chip. It's like, okay, it's better than its reputation, but there's just not enough to do on it. It still just feels

• 35:44Speaker 02

  a little bit incomplete. This feels like more of a complete thought.

• 35:47Nilay Patel?

  I think making it feel like more of a complete thought is great, but like. As a person who wears an Apple Watch every day, what do I use it for? Notifications, the walkie talkie feature, which is just a real hit in this house. And like, it is the best RSA two factor dongle that you could ever hope for in your life. Right?

• 36:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 36:07Nilay Patel?

  That's it. And like, I keep trying to make it do more things, but those things are, and obviously the, like the fitness tracking, right? Like, it just happens to you and then you're like, I gotta close these rings. Like, great. That's all stuff that Google and Samsung can compete with and rebuild. But that like, first, it needs to be a complete thought that we're iterating on. And like, people want to use the features. It doesn't have, I don't think any of these smartwatches need to do much more than that to be compelling. But I just don't think Wear has gotten anywhere close to it. So we'll see. I just can't get over the like, with our excellent partnership and innovation and our long track record of partnership. Like, I've heard it before. So now they gotta actually do it.

• 36:53Nilay Patel?

  I don't know.

• 36:54Speaker 03

  I, I, I mean, I, you know, the cynical end game of this is Wear becomes Samsung smartwatches. And like, it's just like,

• 37:02Nilay Patel?

  Just Android again?

• 37:03Speaker 03

  That's, it, it's just, it, no, it's just Samsung. Like, other partners don't sign on board or they give it a college try with one model and then a year later they're gone. And it's just, this is what Samsung watches now run. I mean, that, that's, that's an end game that I could very see happening with this.

• 37:18Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Well, I hope it's, okay, we gotta take a break. That's so dismissive. Well, I hope it's good. We gotta take a break. We'll come back, we're going through the rest of I O. We'll be right back.

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• 38:36Nilay Patel?

  Okay, lots of other I/O stuff, including like a huge change to Google Docs, which, I mean, our entire business runs on Google Docs, so we could talk about this forever. But a big change in how it works, I will say they're adding Google Meet buttons to everything. Like, it's going out of style, which makes me sad, but some cool stuff in Docs. What's going on there?

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Google wants to do the thing that Microsoft says is doing with Fluid. They want to have all the stuff connect to each other, right? And so their method of doing that is called the Smart Canvas. And then there are these smart chips. So instead of at mentioning somebody in a doc, you can at mention them. You can at mention them and add a Google task to them right in the doc. You can hit the at button and it'll pop up a menu that will fill out a template that's like ready for meeting notes. You can at mention other documents in your drive, and that could be either a Google Doc or like Microsoft Word Doc or whatever. And when you hover over it, you can get a little preview of it right there in the thing. So they're basically trying to get you to not have to switch tabs. It's like, just get rid of tab overload. And they're doing this with Google Chat too, right?

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Like a bunch of these things you can view inside chat. And now they're going to let you have chat viewed inside the Google Doc, or you could do it inside Meet. Or in the Google Doc, you can click the Meet button to share your doc directly to the meeting, so you don't have to worry about screen sharing and showing the wrong tab or whatever. So they're just basically making everything do everything, which...

• 40:02Speaker 02

  If they can keep it feeling coherent and understandable is kind of cool. But it's also, Casey wrote a good piece. I kind of gestured to this idea. It's a lot like what, like the cooler new office suites like Notion or Code or whatever are doing. But Google can't go that fast because they have such a huge user base, just like the iPhone, right? They can't change it, bang, and do something completely wild. They can't bring back Google Wave. So they're doing these sort of baby steps. So that's the feature set. But the thing for the Vergecast to discuss is in order to enable that feature set, they have to use this feature called Canvas, which is basically a thing in HTML where you say,

• 40:43Speaker 02

  there's a canvas here and then, you know, your web browser like stops paying attention. And then the thing that's inside the canvas is an app or like, it's like JavaScript. It's not Flash. I mean, maybe it could be, who knows? But it basically takes the idea of like using the web technologies we're used to thinking of as the web, HTML, CSS, some JavaScript, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that like is not used to build this. And so it's no longer in the document object model. It's not in the DOM anymore. And lots of people have emotions about that because if there's any company that could have figured out how to make a kick ass futuristic web app that interconnects everything together and makes you feel like everything is all, you know, magically jumping from one thing to the next. Inside web technologies, you'd want it to be Google.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  And if Google's bailing on it, then that kind of bodes ill for, um, you know, future of like web stuff that's like more accessible where you can like inspect source and see what's going on.

• 41:36Nilay Patel?

  Wait, so you can't, I mean, that's like, break it down that simply. So with the new Google Docs, you can't just like inspect source and see how the thing works, which you can do with some, but not all, like most, but not all web pages right now.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, basically it's more of a black box. I don't know for sure if like, if you really start pushing at it, if you can like, find the link to the web app that is, uh, that the canvas is pointing to. And then like, you know, go down the line and Google will tell you everything is open source all the time. So like, I'm not saying it's unexpectable, uh, but I am saying it's a lot less accessible. If that makes sense.

• 42:07Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  And Google said that a lot of like, extensions that are built to modify docs. So like, a common one might be like, a dark mode extension to flip your Google Docs into a dark mode. It's probably gonna break until they update it to work with this canvas or whatever.

• 42:21Nilay Patel?

  Which gives them ultimately more control.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Right. Google is gonna make this thing extensible so that other, you could like, we could make a verge Google Doc thing. So if you type at something in the name of an article, it would auto fill the link. Right? That would be cool. That would make making shoutouts way easier for me.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  But for now, the way that most extensions and most like Google Doc plugins from third parties work is they basically inspect source. They go through the DOM and they're like, oh, like this thing, change it. And then it changes it, just like you can inspect source yourself to change a headline for a joke screenshot or whatever. And that's gonna be harder to do. A lot of that stuff might break, but it's not gonna break instantly. A bunch of stuff is still gonna work. It's just like the stuff inside the canvas. It's gonna take a while to shake out, but it's potentially more centralized, you know, control inside Google for appy stuff inside their apps.

• 43:12Nilay Patel?

  So a lot of their demos were, to me, things that seem like great ideas. Like, they seem like great demos. And then I think about how I actually work. And I, I wonder, right? Like, one of their demos was you are writing in a doc or you're working on a spreadsheet, and you push a button and the video call starts right in the doc. And everyone's already looking at it. And the screens are really small. And it's all just happening in one place. Right?

• 43:36Speaker 02

  You don't have to switch tabs.

• 43:38Nilay Patel?

  You don't have to switch tabs.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:40Nilay Patel?

  And then you close it and you go back to your doc. Or, I mean, I think you brought this up in your piece, Peter. Like, these are kind of like ancient ideas about how to work in docs, like documents.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:52Nilay Patel?

  Like, Apple had OpenDoc, Microsoft had OLE.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:57Nilay Patel?

  Ole.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Can I just say that this is a Vergecast where we have brought up Mamo, Migo, and OpenDoc? This is just a classic.

• 44:07Nilay Patel?

  Oh, and Palmer West.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  And Paul, I was gonna say you can't read the palm there.

• 44:11Nilay Patel?

  We are just like in our feelings about technology ideas this time. It's just wild to me like these are dreams that have persisted for years and years and years. And like finally, they can come into reality. I think the pandemic and working from home has made people be like, I want to figure out different ways to work with a bunch of people remotely. So there's appetite for change in a way that has not existed before. But really what you're talking about is I want to make a document. I want to embed a table from a spreadsheet. And if somebody else updates that spreadsheet, it all happens live in one place. Also, that's like wildly accessible to other kinds of apps and services. And I'm just logging into like my work dashboard and stuff is happening all the time. And I think that stuff is great.

• 44:56Nilay Patel?

  And then I think about how I actually work, which is I need to focus on a single thread and just get through it without being distracted. And then I need to like, give that to Dan and be like, edit this review. I'm leaving. And I, and I know that's not how everybody works and there's lots and lots of different ways to work, but like these ideas are like somewhat in conflict, right? That you want, you perceive a way of working that is not actually the best, like what most people would call the best way of working, which is like extreme focus.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, the big question to me is like, how much of this is driven by like metrics? I'm not accusing Google of being driven by metrics and like the old joke about, you know, how many thousands of Blues they tested, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like, if you're making an app and you see more use of your app, then that must be good. And so all this stuff is designed for like real time interaction and less asynchronous communication and like just more, more use the apps more because there's more stuff going on, you're getting more notifications, there's video calls, blah, blah, blah. But maybe that's not, maybe you should make an app that doesn't need to be used so much because the idea of work is to get it done and move on to the next thing.

• 46:07Nilay Patel?

  That's what I mean. It's like, and I recognize that we have very strange jobs, right? Like, we deliver things that need to be finished and then published. And there's if we have to change them after published, like, there's a process we have to like, yeah, that's all very different for us than other folks in different kinds of industries. But I do think that notion, I mean, this is why when I was doing Verchast interviews for song, I'd ask every guest, when do you work? Right? And the answers were like, almost always. So the executive like, I work in business class flying across the country because the wifi is bad and no one can bother me, which is always my favorite flex of an answer. But I look at this stuff and it's like, oh, this is just allowing more people to interrupt you and get in your way. But it looks really cool. It sounds really cool.

• 46:52Nilay Patel?

  And I'm just, I think Google like, yep, they've got a big user base. They gotta go slow. But I think some of that slowness is going to be helpful to figure out what is like useful and what is not. But I don't know.

• 47:04Speaker 03

  Even within our weird way of working, if you pull the staff of writers who work with editors all day long, some of them will be writing in Google Docs, but a lot of them will be writing outside of Google Docs because they want a thing that does not distract them and they can write it down and then they literally copy their text into Google Docs, which then gets collaboratively edited and then gets copied into our CMS. And there's like this, this process that we have. So it's like, these things that Google's coming out with are all focused around immediate collaboration and like, real time collaboration, which is like, like you said, looks really cool in a demo and has this like neat idea of all of us, we're all in different places in the world and we're all working on the same thing, the same goal. But how much of that is going to reflect

• 47:48Speaker 03

  in the reality of how something is put together? I mean, like, I don't know how we integrate this into our workflow. Maybe there's other workflows where it's more obvious.

• 47:56Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. And I don't want to be like too narrow minded. Lots of people work in all kinds of fields. They do need more real time collaboration. I'm excited for the innovation. I just keep thinking about the fact that I own an Apple pencil and like, all that is is used for is my daughter draws on the tablet. Like, in any demo, no one knows what to do except circle things on a screen. And like, it just feels like that. Like, man, this is cool. I finally have this thing I want. Boy, it's usefulness to me is extremely limited.

• 48:27Nilay Patel?

  We'll see.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  We shouldn't get off Workspace before pointing out that they finally added a pageless mode that is responsive and so the document will change its width to the width of your window and not assume that you're printing it, which is a little bit overdue. And I just want to reiterate that if you are a Google Tasks user, A, they haven't given you a website you can go to, it's still only in a sidebar, and B, somebody in your team can add a Google task to your Google Tasks from a Google Doc.

• 48:56Nilay Patel?

  No.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  So I am intending on using that in all sorts of terrible ways.

• 49:01Nilay Patel?

  That's horrible.

• 49:02Speaker 03

  I'm intending on continuing to ignore Google Tasks.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they are normalizing a bunch of stuff. So like the little hover thing for a contact and Gmail is going to stop being so broken because they made it, they fixed it for Google Docs and they're going to bring that back to Gmail. So the thing that struck me at the end of all of this was, oh my God, they're doing stuff. Like they're actually, they have a roadmap and they have a plan and they have a vision for what Google Workspace is going to be and they're actually making products on the path to that roadmap. That's a bad metaphor, but they're doing a thing and they have a plan, which at Google is not common.

• 49:40Nilay Patel?

  I feel like Google's going to start shipping stuff in Docs is actually like the whole story here, but we'll see, because it has remained remarkably unchanged for a long time. Okay, let's round out. There's a bunch of other stuff and it kind of like falls into two categories. One is like Google doing a bunch of demo stuff and then Google doing AI stuff that is associated with controversy and they're all kind of like demo-y demo stuff. So just like, we could, man, talk about classic Birchcasts. Like Google Photos is not going to be able to take two photos taken around the same time and animate them. So like the question of what is a photo is about to get extremely wild.

• 50:23Nilay Patel?

  So you you take, let's say you're, I mean, their demo is like two, two photos.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  But Neelai, if you take two photos at different times, were those photos photos in the first place? Were they also composites?

• 50:33Nilay Patel?

  Inherently, the photos are already HDR composites, so they are not single moments in time. But then if you think about an animation, animation is frames that when stitched together, indicate the passage of time. But now the first photo is actually a slice of time that is interpolated to create the impression of a single moment in time. So is the last frame. And now it is generated multiple frames in between.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:56Nilay Patel?

  That are moments in time that never existed.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Right. Well, they made, they assume it existed. They're, they're, they're taking a guess that you, you know, you moved your head this way in between those two frames, but they don't know, they're just figuring it out.

• 51:08Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but it's so like, that's crazy.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:12Nilay Patel?

  This is crazy. I don't know what to say about that. That's an hour of Vergecast angst. Like, what is a photo? Like, is one of those middle frames statistically? It could be an accurate representation of that moment in time.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:26Nilay Patel?

  Maybe at a high level, like a high rate of accuracy or could not be. So now you have a computer generated photo.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. The whole concept of reality is just a, is just statistics anyway. Statistically, nothing may, it's there or it's not. And it's, it's not actually on off, yes, no, it's, it's statistics. It's a percentage chance that you exist. And luckily it's, you know, you're, you're hitting, you're hitting jackpot every, every millisecond.

• 51:52Nilay Patel?

  Which brings me to quantum computing.

• 52:00Nilay Patel?

  Google did a whiz bang. And this is like, I didn't think this was a great interstitial. Right, it's Michael Pena, they had him like walk through their quantum computing facility. It was very jokey. It's very hard to explain quantum computing. I made this joke in the live blog, but this is true. If you ever in your life, like encounter a quantum computing person or like go to their facility, within minutes, they'll be like, this is the coldest place in the universe. Because it is the single most relatable thing they can say to you and it is still insane. Like, because otherwise, like, qubits, here's the deal and you're like, off to the races. So they're trying to build a quantum computer by 2029. They're actually in a race with Microsoft, they're in a race with IBM.

• 52:43Nilay Patel?

  All these companies have different approaches to how to do this thing, but they're doing that. They demo this thing called Starline.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, this was wild.

• 52:50Nilay Patel?

  Which I kind of like, don't understand why it's so complicated. So.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't think it's, I don't think it's necessarily complicated. I just, it's a smart thing they made.

• 53:01Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, I don't know, a video conferencing booth. So you sit in it, there's cameras, there's a 3D display in front of you. But then instead of just like shooting you and sending that video signal directly to the other Starline booth, it constructs a real time 3D model of you and then reanimates that model on the other side. That's the part where I'm like, why is it so complicated?

• 53:24Nilay Patel?

  Because they could just shoot the video of you in 3D and send it over there. But they make a volumetric 3D model of you.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Right. Maybe it gives you more ability to like move your head around a little bit. Maybe it just looks less video-y to do it that way.

• 53:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I wanted, I'm like bursting with questions because they showed it off and it looked cool. Lauren Good wrote a great piece at Wired about it. She got to experience it. But then they kept saying things like, this takes so much data.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:52Nilay Patel?

  Like gigabytes of data, we had to invent a new compression technology. And it's like, why don't you just shoot the video? Like, they never made that turn for me. Did you hear that? Because I never figured out why they need to do all this like volumetric 3D rendering instead of just showing 3D video across this.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Well, because what you're looking at on the, in the booth, you're looking at a hologram. Right? And the, the reason you can make eye contact is because the, one of the cameras is behind the hologram. And so you're actually looking at a full person, like in 3D, presented with, you know, hologram technology, not. And so it's not just a video, it's, it's a real person with like. Volume, right, in front of you that. And so could that have been done with a bunch of 3D cameras? Or did they actually need to do like a full bunch of like motion capture volumetric stuff to like, get that to have that presence on the other side? I'm guessing they did. Maybe they didn't, but I'm guessing they did. And that's also a lot of data, but that's weird because they they said like it just worked on like a their standard office.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  They didn't have to run a special fiber over. So there is a lot of compression happening there as well. So to me, the real question is like, how does it actually look in person? Lauren, I think it was one of the few people outside of Google to like be able to describe it. And she said it was very real, but as soon as you like moved a little bit to the left or the right, it started to to break the illusion.

• 55:12Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. And another one for the what is a photo files, right? Like you're looking at a person that is not there, that is a reconstructed volumetric 3D model of a person, but that is reacting in real time to that person's actions.

• 55:29Nilay Patel?

  I don't know, man, I gotta go lie down.

• 55:33Nilay Patel?

  I think Ben Thompson is for tech area referred to as Google creates new realities. I'm like, here it is. Okay. And then lastly, and this is Google just charged into this. And I I think they kind of made a mistake. So they announced a bunch of AI stuff that is at a high level, very cool. So they announced MUM and Lambda, which are new natural language processing systems. We were joking before about, I was saying, talking to you, I was like talking to a paper airplane or talking to Pluto. Those were their demos. So the the system can take on the character of a paper airplane and then sort of converse with you about what it's like to be a paper airplane.

• 56:11Nilay Patel?

  Or you can converse with Pluto, which by the way, Sundar and Google just directly called a planet like 10 times.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:19Nilay Patel?

  What Google put its foot down on Google being a planet. I thought it was great.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:23Nilay Patel?

  I mean, go Pluto. I'm on team Pluto. Okay. So that's cool. And then they can do searches with it. They have this thing called multimodal search, where they can understand photos, where you can take a picture of your hiking boots and say, are these boots good for hiking up whatever mountain I'm going to hike up? And the system will understand all of these things. Okay. Oh, that's in like, provide you a conversational answer. All that's great. All this is in context of Google had a team called the ethical AI team led by a researcher named Timnit Gibru, who was writing about how Google's language models had like profound racial implications, that there was bias built into the models because of how they

• 57:06Nilay Patel?

  collect natural language data to create the models. She tried to publish this paper. She got into a fight with Google. She and a bunch of her team were summarily fired. That has led to, Zoe's been covering this for us left and right. James Vincent has been covering, he has actually got a great piece about how what Google said at I O connects to the controversy and like, Google just papered over it. Like, no mention of the fact that this is an internal controversy in Google about whether the AI teams are acting using correct data sets. The only mention of it was they announced this image processing initiative where they're going to change some of the camera filters and they've hired a bunch of experts across fields to make sure the image data sets are more

• 57:50Nilay Patel?

  inclusive. They're literally going to go out and take photos. But that was, I didn't catch anything else. Did you?

• 57:55Speaker 02

  I think there was a little bit with Lambda about needing to be careful with the data sets, needing to be responsible with it. But again, it's like, obviously they've been working on this stuff for forever. It's unclear how much of the ethical AI team contributed to it. If that controversy hadn't happened, I guarantee you that they would have been like, they would have talked about the fact that they have an ethical AI team and the ethical AI team like advised them on this. It's pretty wild how they just went for it with this stuff and they, they are basically daring everybody to be like, but wait a minute. And that's kind of been the reaction. Remember when they did duplex a few years ago and we were like, this is amazing. And everyone went, but wait a minute.

• 58:36Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  They just walked right into that again, but in a way that is, I don't know, much more pointed because there's just much more, you know, Google did a lot worse things here than with duplex. It was just like, oh, you didn't think of it. What the hell? Well, here it's like, oh, you fired somebody. What the hell?

• 58:51Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. So, James Vincent, who wrote about this for us, he's got a quote from Emily Bender, who co-authored the, this paper in the center of the controversy with Timnit Gibru and Margaret Mitchell, one of the other Google researchers who's fired. Her quote is from the blog post discussing Lambda and given the history, I do not have confidence Google's actually been careful about any of the risks we raised in the paper. For one thing, they fired two of the authors of that paper nominally over the paper. So like, there's, there's a big sticky problem for Google here where they've trashed their reputation. They know they have. James Dean, who runs AI Google, has said it. We've reported it. And now they're watching the product. Or they're talking about the product in a

• 59:32Nilay Patel?

  way that is of high strategic importance then. I honestly do not know how they're gonna, how they're gonna make that turn. I mean, they're just gonna do it, which is the problem.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, yeah, they're just gonna power through it. I mean, the team is still there. It's got a new person in charge. Maybe they can come back from it, but like, how hard is hiring over on that team right now, right? It's not a huge community. And they have trashed their reputation in that community. In a way that like, isn't, isn't like, has, they haven't figured out how to solve it.

• 1:00:02Nilay Patel?

  I mean, not even a little bit. And we also don't know how much that ethical AI team gets to make calls about what Google's products are. So what I, what I think about Dieter is something you have mentioned in the context of voice search a million times, right? You ask a Google Home Hub or an Alexa a question, you only get one answer. And you get no contextual information about where that answer came from. You don't get other potential answers or links. You just kind of get told information. In Google, if you look at their presentation across I O, all of their search results are geared towards giving you the one answer. And they announce some stuff in search about contextual search results and why we're showing this to you. And they're going to disclose whether things

• 1:00:44Nilay Patel?

  are ads or not more clearly, which is hilarious, because that is a totally a problem of their own making. Right? Like, they've stuffed so many ads in search results, now they have to tell you when things aren't ads. But as you go down these AI roads, and you start to say the computer's gonna tell you more things. You're gonna take a picture of your shoes, and ask the computer if the shoes are appropriate to wear. And the computer's gonna tell you an answer. It's just gonna generate an answer and tell it to you like a person.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  And that answer might, might involve, no, they're not, but you could go buy these shoes. And when if you do, Google's gonna get a cut.

• 1:01:16Nilay Patel?

  Right? I mean, like, there's just like, all of these moments now for Google, where instead of showing you where information might be, they're gonna become the provider of it. And they're obviously trying to automate it. And like, Yeah, if you, Google has mostly escaped the Facebook dynamic, right? Like, the algorithm is bad, Facebook dynamic. They definitely, with YouTube, it's like absolutely there. But as they start to turn search and maps and all this other stuff into natural language, single result AI systems, like, whoo. Yeah. Man, do you need an ethical AI team showing, like, showing people the work more than ever? Because Google's a utility in a way that I think Facebook isn't.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  Well, and Google is also, when you, when it gives you these answers, they're coming from Google. They might tell you what the source was, but when you get just one answer, the person, the entity, the responsibility for the accuracy of that answer is going to end up falling on Google in a way where it has fallen on Facebook, but Facebook can kind of slide around it and say, well, it's our algorithm, but other people are, other people are posting the misinformation, blah, blah, blah, blah. Disclosure, my wife works for Facebook Reality Labs, used to be called Oculus, et cetera. Yeah, it's going to be a tougher problem in the future for both companies.

• 1:02:29Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Nilay Patel?

  The demos are cool. You should watch them. It's fun to watch Sundar talking to a planet. It was even, I thought, when he showed a breaking, that's hilarious, where he was like Pluto's answer was, sometimes I play with the moon. And it's like, oh, this is how the world ends. Like, the computers get feelings, they, they, uh, blow up the moon. But I just, I want to end the I/O section on this because it is a huge issue for Google. And like, you know, Hattie and I are going to do a whole episode on Apple and Epic and competition, and I trust, where is the competition for Google in these spaces? If Google screws this up, where are you going to go to search for things on the web in a, in a meaningful and realistic way? Especially like, it's like, Apple's going to take, it's like, stop taking the Google

• 1:03:16Nilay Patel?

  money. So like, I, I think the pressure on Google to get this right is high and needs to maybe get even higher. Okay, we're going to take a break. We're going to come back. We got some, we got some gadget reviews to talk about. This is really like a classic Vergecast. We'll be right back.

• 1:03:36Speaker 05

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• 1:04:51Nilay Patel?

  Okay, we're back. Got to end. Monica reviewed the M1 iMac, which is beautiful. Dieter, you reviewed the M1 iPad Pro. And then I don't even understand this lossless audio thing. Let's start with the, Dan, let's start with the iMac.

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, the iMac is finally that redesign that everyone's been waiting for a decade.

• 1:05:13Nilay Patel?

  I love it so much.

• 1:05:14Speaker 03

  It is very pretty, comes in a bunch of fun colors. We were able to review and see the purple one and the orange one, which have dumb marketing names that I cannot remember. So you can remind them as purple and orange. They also come with green and blue and silver and yellow. So if you want a yellow computer, you can now buy one. But the point is, it's basically if you took a MacBook Pro M1 and put it into a desktop chassis with a 24 inch screen, really great speakers, that's what this is. And that's exactly how it functions and performs. It's got great performance for everyday work. It's very quiet. It's very quick. It's very responsive. The webcam's great. Speakers sound great. It's got three microphones that sound great. So Monica tested it out a bunch with the, for video calling, because that's what we're all doing now.

• 1:05:59Speaker 03

  And it's a really great video calling machine. But it's not like. The iMac that people who have bought iMacs for the past few years have probably been waiting for because the iMac for obviously since its beginning was like the family computer. It was a way to get online initially. It was all in one, very simple, but as time has gone on and things like the MacBook Air have kind of replaced the default computer from desktops, the iMac became more of a focused professional tools. Our video team uses iMac all the time. Lots of creative professionals uses iMacs all the time. This new iMac is not probably the computer for them. They're going to want to wait for something more powerful, bigger screen, more ports. There's only four ports on this that you can get. So, but it is like

• 1:06:42Speaker 03

  kind of the return of the classic Bondi blue iMac that came out in 1998.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. So actually I, I think you're wrong that this isn't something that people have been waiting for. My parents bought an iMac in the pandemic because they just want, they needed a desktop. They needed a bigger screen and they wanted to make video calls a little bit easier in a format they were familiar with because figuring out the Facebook portals is a nightmare. And so like I'm a little bit bummed that they, they don't have this computer because they would be so much happier with it. It's lighter. They could like, they could move it around, stick it on the kitchen table if they wanted to. I think this computer is great.

• 1:07:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a great computer. Yeah, for sure. But like for the audience that's listening to the Vergecast, for the audience that reads the Verge reviews, they probably, it's probably not the computer for them. It's not the right computer for me. I, it's like a 24 inch screen. It's like, huh. What am I going to do with that? I would, the first, if I had this computer on my desk, the first thing I would do is stick a Thunderbolt dock into the back of it. So I could actually have like functional ports and do what I want to do. So like it's, it's not the computer for someone who cares about that stuff. But for some people like your parents did, or like for people who are not, you know, that, you know, care about it, it's, it's, it's a great functional computer that they can literally put down on a desk and not worry about it for like five to 10 years, which was like the dream of the iMac.

• 1:07:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I don't know. We kind of, when these were announced, we kind of poked around at the idea of like, did you know everybody was going to work from home? And then you had an M1 chip. So you made like a fun, colorful, good work from home. And like, the response was like, man, we wish we were that good. Right? Like, yeah. But they have hit a moment.

• 1:08:14Nilay Patel?

  Where a lot of people are reconsidering how and when they're going to work. A lot of people are like, oh, I want to have like a nice home office situation. I'm not going to go in the office. This computer is perfect for like, they're going to sell so many of these. So, so, so many of these. And it's also like a brand new five nanometer chip, the M1, on a new process that Apple controls all the supply to. So there will be no chip shortages whatsoever.

• 1:08:39Nilay Patel?

  Like, well, there might be some, actually, Apple.

• 1:08:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was gonna say.

• 1:08:42Nilay Patel?

  They might be, they might be running it. But like, just in terms of meeting, like your plan, meeting a moment, and like having that moment kind of be perfect. I think they've, they've nailed it for a huge class of people that is reconsidering whether they're going to go back to an office. And like, I think if you, if you're not, like, I cannot recommend enough. If you have a laptop, get an external display and a keyboard, and just tilt your head up. Like, don't look down at your laptop all day. Just like, sit up and look straight. And if you are in the market for a new computer, like, maybe you don't want your laptop to follow you around the house and make you work all of the time. Maybe like work should stay in a room. And like, I don't know.

• 1:09:24Nilay Patel?

  I, I think the M1 power thing, like how powerful is this computer really? I mean, I want to, I want to wait for a bigger screen and a faster computer, but most people are looking at 13 inch laptop screens. There's just a part of me, it's like, Apple just nailed it so completely with this computer, that I want to get one just to have it, even though I don't need it.

• 1:09:42Speaker 03

  Put it in your kitchen. That's where Apple wants you to put it, in the kitchen.

• 1:09:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:45Speaker 03

  Because your work will follow you.

• 1:09:48Nilay Patel?

  I do, why don't they, why didn't they? This goes into the iPad, but why didn't they do the Center Stage video calling thing with this?

• 1:09:55Speaker 03

  It's very odd. Yeah, I honestly have no idea. It's got a great image sensor in there. It's 1080p from 720 now. Monica did like, if you watch the video, she compares it directly to the camera that's in the M1 MacBook Pro, and it is night and day. You know, obviously, it's not going to compare to like, setting up your own rig with a mirrorless camera and all this other stuff that people have done over the past year. But just compared to like, what it was before, it is much better experience in terms of video calling.

• 1:10:22Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I think the answer to Center Stage is the same reason, is the same answer is why they didn't put Face ID on the iMac. It's just, it's a lot of work to recreate that stuff on the Mac. And I don't know, they can run iPad out, so apparently they can't run that yet. And they just don't want to do it. They're.

• 1:10:38Speaker 03

  Well, the Mac is scary and dangerous, that's why.

• 1:10:40Nilay Patel?

  Oh.

• 1:10:44Nilay Patel?

  Monica says speakers are good. We, this is probably as good a place as any. You talk about Atmos and lossless.

• 1:10:51Nilay Patel?

  I don't know, like it supports still the Atmos with spatial audio. Apple Music just rolled out like just this extremely complicated lossless audio plan.

• 1:11:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:04Nilay Patel?

  So there you can get, it's not going to cost anyone anymore. So the complexity is like, whatever. But there's two different things happening at once. One is what should be the more straightforward thing is the quality levels of Apple Music are rising. So now instead of wherever they were at compressed AAC, you can now get lossless Apple Music. That comes in two different quality tiers. Dan, am I correct about this?

• 1:11:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. So there's a lossless and then there's high def lossless.

• 1:11:39Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 1:11:43Nilay Patel?

  So this does make sense. So there's two tracks here. One is like existing Apple Music is going to be higher quality and that is very complicated. It involves a lot of Apple's own hardware not supporting anything. So at the base level, Apple's going to support CD quality audio, which is hilarious to me because everyone is always talking about CD quality audio. But like CDs came out 30 years ago. We got, we gotta be able to do better than like one optical disc format. But CD quality audio is 16 bit at 44.1 kilohertz. Those are the numbers that you can fall down the rabbit hole, those numbers if you want, but those are the numbers that indicate CD quality audio.

• 1:12:26Nilay Patel?

  But then on Apple devices, but by Apple devices, we mean Macs and iOS devices. Not anything else. That's a big point. On Apple devices, you can get 24 bit at 48 kilohertz, which is a good and meaningful step up.

• 1:12:42Nilay Patel?

  Then you can also further go to 24 bit at 192 kilohertz. If you have an external USB digital audio converter. Which is like another box you have to buy and you plug fancy headphones into that. So like at the top level of Apple Music, you need to buy a piece of non Apple hardware. At the middle level of Apple Music, you can use. Your phone or your. Mac to listen to it. Probably over the built in speakers because the phones don't have headphone jacks.

• 1:13:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:15Nilay Patel?

  And you can't listen to any of this. If you have Apple's headphones, if you have AirPods or AirPods Max or AirPods Pro.

• 1:13:24Speaker 03

  It gets more complicated than that because the thing that Apple says is they that so that that highest tier where you need that external hardware. You cannot listen to that with AirPods Max or HomePods, full stop.

• 1:13:36Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 1:13:37Speaker 03

  That lossless tier before you get to that highest tier. Is not called lossless when you are listening through AirPods Max. Whether you're doing it wired or wireless and Apple says this is because what happens is the audio is converted into analog. Then it's re digitized for the AirPods Max because they do not have an analog to digital converter. And so it's it's it's digital goes to analog, becomes digital again when it hits your ear before it goes to your ears where it. You know, comes out of the speakers or whatever. That last conversion means that Apple can't call it lossless because it is not.

• 1:14:14Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Speaker 03

  The pure audio.

• 1:14:16Nilay Patel?

  Because the AirPods are themselves, the AirPods are shaping the music themselves, right? They've got their own algorithms for shaping the music.

• 1:14:23Speaker 03

  Right, but the 24 bit 48 kilohertz signal comes in. Gets converted and then it gets re converted back into 24 bit 48 kilohertz. So it's like that level is still maintained, but it can't be called lossless because of the number of times of conversion. So it is like kind of this wonky thing that the gist of it all is it'll probably sound great. It's going to sound great in your AirPods Max, but like you can't say I've got lossless in my ears.

• 1:14:51Nilay Patel?

  I will say if Apple for years said, nobody could hear this stuff and it wasn't worth it. And now they're like, they're in it. Right? And I think that's because we expect Spotify is going to do it. Amazon Music, the same day announced they're dropping the price of Amazon Music HD. Something happened.

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:08Nilay Patel?

  Right? Like, there was a smoke-filled Zoom with the music industry.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  Well, Spotify, there was like a bug in the app where you could like see a hi-fi option appear. Chris Welch found it on Reddit and like confirmed it on his own phone. Here's the thing. I mean, one, let's just talk about the fact that Apple and Amazon, giant tech behemoths with piles of cash to burn, are offering this for free when we think Spotify is going to have to charge more. That's thing one. Thing two, I know there's a lot of people defending or like explaining why the AirPods Max can't do it. And like, you know, you don't understand audio and this is why they can't do it, whatever. But I don't know. Apple chose to make the AirPods Max. They released them not that long ago.

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  Presumably, somebody in the AirPods Max team could have wandered over to the Apple Music team and said, hey, what you working on? I know that Apple is very silent or whatever, but come on.

• 1:16:03Nilay Patel?

  What Dan is describing is the wired mode, right? Where to get audio out of your computer, you gotta do a digital-to-analog conversion with a phone that happens in the Lightning adapter, right? That's why you get an analog audio jack. And then you plug it in and the AirPods convert it. Wirelessly, the AirPods Max, that's Bluetooth. And Apple doesn't support any lossless protocol over Bluetooth. Like, it is necessarily compressed. So when you're like, the AirPods Max team knew, not only did they probably know it was happening down the line with Apple Music, they knew right, like, from the start that the only Bluetooth codec that they were supporting was, like, limited. And they didn't build a headroom into the system. Could all this change WWDC?

• 1:16:48Nilay Patel?

  Could they add a Bluetooth codec to iOS, to the iPhone? Could they update the W1? Maybe.

• 1:16:56Speaker 03

  But then why, why, why announce it?

• 1:16:58Nilay Patel?

  Why announce it before now?

• 1:16:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Nilay Patel?

  Because the music industry all got together and like, you're doing it tomorrow.

• 1:17:03Speaker 03

  My favorite, favorite reaction to all of this is, um, for years and years, Apple's like, this doesn't matter. Nobody can hear it. A bunch of audio people like, no, it matters. And now Apple announced it and a bunch of audio people like, it doesn't matter. Nobody can hear this. It's like completely flipped.

• 1:17:18Nilay Patel?

  Uh, so we still have a lot of questions on Sono support, AirPlay support, like many, many questions to be answered. None of Apple's pages make any of this particularly clear. We gotta figure that out. That is just one track of the Apple Music chaos. And that, I promise you, is the simpler set of problems to solve. Because all you're doing is taking, you're taking the existing music library.

• 1:17:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:45Nilay Patel?

  And that you're compressing it, or in some cases, like you're encoding it differently. Right? You're like, you've got stereo audio, two channels. You've got a master version of it somewhere that's uncompressed and you're going to encode it into one of the many formats and like, ship it out over the internet. It's some complicated scheme that will eventually make sense.

• 1:18:07Nilay Patel?

  They're also announcing support for Dolby Atmos and spatial audio, which requires a new library of music that has been remixed for Atmos.

• 1:18:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:18Nilay Patel?

  And there is even less information about that. And the only thing I ever think about when I, and it's a different format than Amazon and Sony, which are using like, what's it called, Dan? Some Sony?

• 1:18:29Speaker 03

  Uh, well, uh, Sony has 360 reality. Uh, Amazon's actually the one in between who supports both Atmos and 360.

• 1:18:36Nilay Patel?

  I think Amazon music is due, is 360 reality and not Atmos.

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  I think it's, I think it's actually both.

• 1:18:43Nilay Patel?

  Of course.

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  I, I mean, I, I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly, the studio, it's both. But you would, you won't know really which one it is when it, when you're playing it. Like it's just one of them.

• 1:18:53Nilay Patel?

  Anyhow, all I remember is when you reviewed the Echo Studio. You discovered that tracks had had instruments added on to them to make them sound more 3D and literally no one, tell the story. I don't think anyone has ever explained to us what exactly happened.

• 1:19:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I'm testing out, this was a couple of years ago, the Echo Studio came out, Amazon rolled out its 3D music support with the Echo Studio. It was like their product to showcase it on. And there were like, I don't know, 10 tracks that I could test it with. One of them happened to be Cameron's Oh Boy from 2002. So of course, I'm listening to that a bunch and I'm listening to it in stereo mode and I'm listening to it in a 3D mode. And I realized that when I'm in 3D mode, there's this whole orchestra of strings in the song that don't exist in stereo mode. And like, this just is out of nowhere. And so we get comment on it from Amazon. Amazon's like, you know, studios can choose to add

• 1:19:52Speaker 03

  things to the songs however they feel fit or whatever. We tweet about this. It goes out on Twitter. Jonathan from Boy Genius, who worked in the music industry for a long time, has a lot of connections there, happens to know Just Blaze. It's like, Just Blaze, look what they did to your song. And Just Blaze is like, cool.

• 1:20:11Nilay Patel?

  He's like, did I get paid for this? I don't know. By the way, you are correct. The Echo Studio supports both and Amazon, Amazon Music HD is Atmos, not 360 Reality Audio. I don't know. All these are bad names. My point is, if you think the chaos and confusion of lossless format support is nuts, just wait until artists are like, I remade this in Atmos. And you're like, great, I'm going to turn my head and listen for stuff. Then they realize there's nothing to hear back there because they recorded in stereo. And they're like, what if we put some strings in this? Because that's what they're gonna do.

• 1:20:48Nilay Patel?

  I just don't know why I this is the one where the music industry for years. Like their entire revenue model was format shifting.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58Nilay Patel?

  You know, like Google it. So they would sell you for years, Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd was like the best selling album in the world. And it's because every couple of years you would go from eight tracks to cassettes to vinyl to CDs and everybody would just rebuy Dark Side of the Moon. Cause you could hear it, you know, like.

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:17Nilay Patel?

  You like smoke weed and what it was, it was the Wizard of Oz.

• 1:21:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:22Nilay Patel?

  So everyone is like, everyone's like hitting play in the eight track player and watching the Wizard of Oz and like, oh, I gotta buy this on the CD. Well, that's real. They don't have format shifting anymore. It's just streaming. So this is like an obvious attempt to do a format shift, but they didn't raise the prices. So I've no idea what the point of this is. And then on the other side of the music industry, everybody, all the new artists are just trying to make TikTok beats.

• 1:21:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Nilay Patel?

  Like half of the music industry is like the songs need to be one minute long and have a clear hook that you can dance to. And we're going to master it for phones. And the other half of the music industry is like, we're adding strings to Camron. So people will buy new speakers and it just doesn't, it doesn't seem like a strategy to me.

• 1:22:05Nilay Patel?

  Anyhow.

• 1:22:05Speaker 02

  But will there be strings in the TikTok beats?

• 1:22:08Nilay Patel?

  There's always strings in the TikTok beats. You gotta get the woes, man. We look, read our Ricky desktop interview. I think my favorite thing that we published last year, I talk about our Ricky desktop profile so much. Okay. Speaking of speakers, the iPad Pro has four of them.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're really good.

• 1:22:26Nilay Patel?

  It was great, right?

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, yeah. So I reviewed the iPad Pro, the, the 12.9 and the 11. I did not deeply test spatial audio because it's the same as before. In fact, a lot of the stuff on these iPads are the same as before. The things that are new are center stage, which we discussed, you can follow you around and M1 chip. And the 12.9 has a mini LED display that is called the. Liquid Retina XDR, I believe, is the name of that display. And what do you want to know?

• 1:22:57Nilay Patel?

  Liquid Retina XDR.

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  Liquid Retina XDR, yep.

• 1:23:00Nilay Patel?

  Well, we got to talk about the display. So in the review, you, I mean, interview pointed out how it works. It's got this huge grid of micro LED backlights.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  10,000.

• 1:23:10Nilay Patel?

  As we were talking about it, I was like, you got to run a blooming test because I'm a gigantic display nerd.

• 1:23:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:15Nilay Patel?

  And that is the first thing I thought of. It seemed like it did pretty okay on those tests.

• 1:23:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it did fine. Like, you can see it. You can see a little blooming around the little, you know, square dot moving around the screen. But I haven't personally reviewed a bunch of OLED TVs. I've obviously looked at OLED TVs. I don't currently own one. But blooming is unavoidable. They've got 2,500 local dimming zones, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that's just there. But when you're actually watching a movie or looking at an HDR photo, you just don't see it. And to be clear, you should know that the brightness on the screen is specifically for full screen applications. So you need to go full screen in a video or in a photo for it to kick in the extreme HDR that can peak at 1,600 nits and have an overall screen brightness of 1,000 nits.

• 1:23:57Speaker 03

  Does it do that thing that the iPhone does when you're watching HDR where it like actually visibly shifts over into HDR mode as you play the video?

• 1:24:04Speaker 02

  And it's great. I'm sorry. It's fricking great.

• 1:24:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  The, the, the blacks are black. Everything looks amazing. Colors feel more accurate because there's actually detail, the texture that is lost in a traditional backlight system. The screen, when you're like watching movies, is incredible. It's so good. Is that worth the extra money? That is, that is between you and your bank account.

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  To me.

• 1:24:31Speaker 03

  Because the extra money is, it's, it's a hundred dollars more than it was last year, right? Like, that's the extra money.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  If they had this thing on the 11 inch, I'd have, I'd have bought it by now. I prefer the 11 inch size on, on the iPad Pro. But yeah, I would have, like, just, just because I have no idea why they didn't. Is it too expensive? Do they want to keep the iPad Pro a little bit cheaper? Do they not have, not able to make enough components to fit into both? Unclear, unknown. So that's the screen. I did run into one weird thing where in dark mode in ebook apps, there's like more than blooming behind it. It's like kind of lit up like big gray squares. You will not see it unless you're in like a pitch black room reading at night. You just won't. But when you see it, you're like, what the hell is that? And it's actually distracting enough to like have put me off wanting to use it to read at night with it. But any amount of light at

• 1:25:19Speaker 02

  all in the room and it basically disappears.

• 1:25:22Nilay Patel?

  It's I'm assuming there's like a very complicated backlight controller that is just being confused by big blocks of text.

• 1:25:28Speaker 02

  Well, I will tell you, though, it's like, it's not just blocks of text, like in in in iBooks, there's like a page number, page two, just all by itself down in the bottom of the left hand page and nothing else near it. And it had a like two by two inch square of gray around it for for one digit.

• 1:25:48Nilay Patel?

  Huh. Did Apple say anything about this?

• 1:25:50Speaker 02

  They they they they did not.

• 1:25:55Nilay Patel?

  Huh. Yeah, sometimes when we review things, we find bugs and they're like, yeah, we'll get back to you.

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  I think they're still investigating.

• 1:26:04Nilay Patel?

  Well, I think if you think about that 10,000 micro LED grid, it is basically just a second lower resolution display.

• 1:26:13Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:26:13Nilay Patel?

  Like a lower resolution, black and white display behind the the main color display.

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:19Nilay Patel?

  And so, I mean, we've seen this demo at CS, however, many times, but like, the TV demo, when they show you local dimming LCDs, is they show you each layer of the TV operating.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:26:31Nilay Patel?

  And so the local dimming one is like, they show you the person walking across the screen and there's like a blockier LED person walking across the screen.

• 1:26:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:26:38Nilay Patel?

  And like it like that display controller and how fast it works and how responsive it is like, it's a significant engineering project and it feels like there's probably a display controller, software update that needs to come.

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:51Nilay Patel?

  By the way, I was thinking about this because you said the yellow color thing. And it occurred to me, I just Googled this, this is probably wrong, but a lot of the way you perceive brightness is based on the green channel, which is why Pentile screens have more green pixels because they can look brighter. And I think yellow is like one of the weird ones. So now that you've got like a better backlight, you can actually perceive different because you called out yellow specifically. I've been thinking about it ever since.

• 1:27:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:17Nilay Patel?

  They're like, yellow is one of the weirder, like harder ones. So you've got a backlight technology that can make the yellows brighter. So you can perceive the difference in the yellows is crazy to me.

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:26Nilay Patel?

  See, my obsession with Pentile displays finally paid off.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  I'm only going to watch movies with, uh, I don't know, Lee Pace in him so I can look at his blonde hair.

• 1:27:36Nilay Patel?

  Do you think they're going to do something big at W W C with this M one chip? I mean, that's like every, every review, you called it out, like, don't wait, like, nothing indicates that Apple is going to make this thing more of a Mac at W W.

• 1:27:48Speaker 02

  Who knows, right? But like, Apple has certainly not indicated that they're going to make this.

• 1:27:51Nilay Patel?

  Well, iOS is for babies, as we've learned today.

• 1:27:53Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. So we should just say the M one, uh, if you use very specific apps, you will perceive a speed difference in like rendering or doing stuff. But if you don't know exactly what app is slowed down by the A series chip, then you will not notice it is fat, is just as fast. It feels fast, whatever. It supports Thunderbolt, but again, the way that Apple supports, uh, third party accessories on the iPad continues to be, um, frustrating. The one that I specifically called out is audio stuff. So if you have a thing plugged into it that like has a speaker, like to my dock, there's no controls to tell the iPad, no, don't use that play audio on the iPad. If, if you can find the setting to like, get audio back to the iPod, please tell me because it's not the little

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  airplane looking thing in the control center that didn't do it for me. And that's it. Like, the iPad is great and it's like the most enjoyable computer to use until you can't do anything, until you like hit a wall and then it's frustrating. So I have no idea what they're gonna do at WWDC. They are due because like they kind of like if they're if they're doing like their TikTok small update, big update strategy. Last year's iPad update was pretty minimal. They didn't do much. So maybe they're due to do a lot this year, but we will, we will see.

• 1:29:07Nilay Patel?

  One of the challenges Apple now has is Craig Federighi just said the entire software model of the iPad of iOS is keeping you safe. The Mac is like a car and you have to learn how to drive it and it's not dangerous. And the iPad is like right in the middle of those two approaches.

• 1:29:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:29:24Nilay Patel?

  And what they need to do is make it more open and extensible and flexible and easier to use.

• 1:29:29Nilay Patel?

  But then they're gonna have to give up the things in iOS. Right? Like, if you want to make the iPad truly extensible, you have to de abstract the file system.

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:41Nilay Patel?

  They're just not gonna do it. Right? And like, I just wonder, like, the things people want iPads to do, like, you can do most of them. I worked from an iPad for most of today, actually. It was fine. But the second I'm like, I gotta get something that we've had this, how many times we have this conversation? I can, I just think their, their challenge now that they want to keep the iPhones so locked down in the face of all this antitrust pressure is gonna land squarely on the iPad not moving.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:06Nilay Patel?

  Because if they make any concessions on the iPad, people are gonna say, why don't you make the same concessions on the phone?

• 1:30:11Speaker 02

  Right. Well, it's got a different name. It's iPadOS. It's not iOS.

• 1:30:14Nilay Patel?

  Maybe that's why they did it.

• 1:30:15Speaker 02

  I mean, honestly, maybe that's why they did it.

• 1:30:19Speaker 02

  Man, I don't, I, I could complain about what's a computer with the iPad for another three years. And I'm sure I will be. What about the, just like briefly, what about the fact that Apple, I think we've seen what the M1 devices are gonna be, right? Like, the, the low end MacBook Pro, the MacBook Air, the iMac, and now surprisingly, the iPad. They've just like taken this, this thing and they slapped it in all their consumer stuff. Uh, so we know there's a, another version of the M processor coming for the higher end MacBook Pro and presumably a higher end iMac. Is it weird that the, like, this is just the same chip in the Mac and the iPad? Is it, am I the only one that has a hang up on that? I know that they're not gonna run Mac apps, but they just like, they like created this amazing board and they just like put it all their

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  computers and it's like, this feels more appliancey than ever to me.

• 1:31:07Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I don't, I think it's weird to us. It's probably weird to our listeners, like, now we know it can just do all the things in a way that. Apple used to have an argument that Intel chips were different and that architectures were different and they had custom built the A series processors to do X, Y, and Z. Now it's like they're just openly saying it's the same chip. And then you know, over here on Mac OS, which is starting to inherit a lot of iOS paradigms, that it can just do all the things. So like, I think there's a weirdness if you know, but I think Apple's also very proud of the M1 chip. They're very proud of the fact that it can run every form factor from an 11 inch iPad up to an iMac.

• 1:31:50Nilay Patel?

  And like, that's just a huge range of thermal constraints. It can like, do a good job in all those thermal constraints.

• 1:31:58Speaker 02

  Give me an M1 Apple Watch.

• 1:31:59Nilay Patel?

  I think they're like, their general pride at like, leading the industry in chip design far supersedes us being like, well, the operating systems are really close and why won't you just let me either touch my Mac or layer a window on the iPad?

• 1:32:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 1:32:17Nilay Patel?

  Like, it's the only things I need to do. I need to layer some windows or I need to touch this screen. And I think Apple just doesn't care. And I really do think, and maybe I'm sure, certain they would strenuously deny it, they're in a position right now where to move the iPad to closer to Mac where a lot of people want it to go, they would have to give up those concessions on the phone. And that is just a dangerous, dangerous place for them to be right at the second.

• 1:32:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're not gonna do it. In conclusion, the summary of everything here is they should add multi user to the iPad because it's punitive that they don't.

• 1:32:51Nilay Patel?

  That is, I don't understand why.

• 1:32:55Speaker 02

  No, they don't do it because they, they want to make you buy both. Like, that was gonna be the original way I was gonna conclude the video is like, the reason is because they're gonna afford, they want to make you buy both. And that's like mean and whatever, but it's not.

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  It's not like the right attitude to take towards the iPad because it is such an amazing computer. But yeah, I, I just think that they, they want everybody to have an iPad. They, they think it's a personal device and it's a lot of work to make it multi-user, right? iOS was not architected to be that way from the jump. And so like having to retcon, retcon that in is like a ton of work. I don't know if it's worth it for them.

• 1:33:34Nilay Patel?

  They, they did that work on the education side.

• 1:33:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, the education iPads are like, the multi-users are like, okay, I think that they probably don't think it's a good enough experience to like, send out to everybody. But I wish they would. They've already, they, they've already been willing to make the iPad complicated. Trying to figure out like, the windowing experience on the iPad is hard. It's not easy to figure out. It's not intuitive at all. So whatever, make it, it's already complicated, make it more complicated, offer multi-user so that a family that can't afford four iPads can like, actually use one.

• 1:34:06Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Especially with like, remote schooling, all this other stuff that we've lived through. Like, it's sitting there for them. They should just do it. Okay, I want to end. I just want to say this out loud. We did a Starlink review last week. We talked about it at length. This is so dumb. If you've been listening to this show for any amount of time, but for example, over the past 10 years, I will happily disclose to you, as many times as you wish, that NBC Universal, a part of Comcast, is a minority investor in Vox Media, which owns The Verge. I promise you that Comcast does not love me. Like, I just, I, there's not, the number

• 1:34:48Nilay Patel?

  of experiences I have where I have been told this company is not, a fond of our coverage of them is, is numerous. And I also promise you that even if they owned us and controlled us, that would not be what it takes to influence me into saying that wired connections are better than wireless ones. Which is just, which is really the thing that people are mad at me for saying that I think the telecom industry in this country has utterly failed to connect people well. And if you look at other countries around the world with different competition models, different policy regimes, someone tweeted me and said, I'm on a beach, I'm on a remote

• 1:35:27Nilay Patel?

  beach in Sweden, I'm paying for my fiber provider's basic plan and I have 200 up and down. Like, I understand, it's a big country, there's all these issues, most people in this country have electricity, we can probably do a better job of running broadband cables to way more places and making the market more competitive, which was the heart of my Starlink review. If you look at, if you just look at what the most, like, the harshest lines in that review are, they are dedicated to the telecom industry in this country, not Starlink, even though I think Starlink, for a lot of people, might be a good solution in the end. That's all I'm gonna say. I don't wanna like engage it too much. I just think it's

• 1:36:09Nilay Patel?

  very funny to accuse me in particular of being in the pocket of Comcast in order to say that wired connections are better than wireless ones. If anything, I'm in the pocket of big HDMI and big ethernet, I think people know that. So, I just wanna put that out there. That's the disclosure. We disclose it all over the site. We disclose it on the show all the time. I think it is a very funny, I'm sympathetic to it. I understand it. Some of the criticisms are valid. I got the name of the dish wrong. It's Dishy McFlatface, not Dishy McTiffface. We did correct that in the piece. I think people are so desperate for connectivity, they're angry, they're angry at the wrong things. There's like

• 1:36:50Nilay Patel?

  a helplessness about broadband in this country that is utterly devastating to see in person. And so I'm not upset or mad about this. I'm just pointing out how upset other people are. That, Teter lives in San Francisco.

• 1:37:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:06Nilay Patel?

  San Francisco is a-

• 1:37:07Speaker 02

  Everyone's upset that I live here.

• 1:37:09Nilay Patel?

  I mean, I used to live in New York City, like even if you want to make the big land, you know, America's big and population like in San Francisco and New York City, two of the most densely populated and expensive places to live in this country. It is hard to get good broadband. Like Dieter, your broadband connection is not like, you don't have like gigabit up and down.

• 1:37:29Speaker 02

  No, it's not available to me. The best I can get is Doxus from Xfinity and I hate it.

• 1:37:36Nilay Patel?

  There you go.

• 1:37:37Speaker 02

  I'm paying for their max, their max plan. And it's like, you know, a gig down, but not, not usually doesn't hit that. And it's 25 up. And why is it only 25 up? Who knows? And I think if I moved, if I, if I happened to have moved like six blocks, I would have access to Sonic, which is an independent ISP. I think it runs on top of A and T, AT&T's fiber. And I would love to give them my money. I would be so happy to give my money to an independent ISP. There's another independent ISP here in San Francisco called Monkey Brains, which is very good, but it's just like, it's microwaves and it's, it's a little bit too slow for my needs. So my plan here, living where I live is if I need to upload something, I will get on my bike and ride to our office that's 20 minutes away and go through our COVID protocols.

• 1:38:22Speaker 02

  No, I'm serious. I go, I, I go through our COVID protocols. I like fill out the survey. I get permission from the company to go to the office so that I can upload a file. That's more than, you know, a bunch of gigabytes, like 20 gigabytes. Anytime I shoot video, I have to go to the office because Comcast is the only provider I have here and they suck.

• 1:38:42Nilay Patel?

  Anyway, I just think that's like, that's San Francisco. That's not the middle of rural America, which is where I'm sitting. I only have one choice. That's all I want to say. I just, the Starlink review was more about broadband in America than one thing. And it was in particular about American telecom policy always promising you a new connectivity technology instead of investing into deploying the ones that work. And making sure those markets are competitive. I think that is a mistake. I think you can look around the world and see other countries that have made different policy choices and their citizens are connected at much faster speeds for much lower prices. That's it. Disclosure, NBC Universal, a division of Comcast, is a minority investor in Vox Media, which owns The Verge.

• 1:39:27Nilay Patel?

  And I, I promise you, I absolutely promise you, they do not love us. Okay, that's it. That's a Verge Cast. Any means for that takes a long, but if you know me, you know that I'm very passionate about broadband policy. It routinely bores the staff of The Verge to tears. That's my real problem. It's the constant low-grade mutiny if I talk about broadband policy anymore. All right, that's it. That's a Verge Cast. We've got another episode. We went for an hour and a half. Oh, way more than that, buddy. But there's another episode coming later today. We're more than that. Is it more than that? Yeah, it's like almost two. We went for an, and we went over is what I'm really trying to say. But Addy and I are gonna do another episode of The Verge Cast later today after Tim Cook

• 1:40:10Nilay Patel?

  wraps up his Epic versus Apple testimony. So look out for that. You can tweet at us. Dieter is at Backlon. Dan is at D C Seifert. I'm at Reckless. By the time this comes out, I'm gonna tell you, episode of Decoder with Ford CEO Jim Farley talking about the new F-150 Lightning will be up in the world. That was a wild one. He basically told me that you'd be able to upgrade the computers in cars, the same way that you can upgrade like the shocks in the seats. Ooh. I would love to see that happen. He did not have an answer when I said, will I be able to upgrade my current car to your new Android operating system? Just didn't answer that question. You're stuck with sync. I think I know the answer. Enjoy your sync. I think that means I know the answer to that question.

• 1:40:55Nilay Patel?

  But that is up. Go listen to that. It's, that was a really fun episode to do. Like I said, we'll be back later, later on Friday with Apple versus Epic, and we'll be back again next week. That's it. Rock and roll. Encourage your family to get a vaccine.

• 1:41:26Speaker 06

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• 1:42:12Speaker 07

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