iPhone chips, Scorpio specs, and RIP NES Classic

This week on Vergecast, Chris Plante is in town! Nilay, Dieter, and Paul bring him in to discuss a few things that confused us all throughout the week — Apple and Qualcomm suing each other, how the FCC may kill net neutrality, and Nintendo discontinuing the NES Classic. There’s a lot more in between all that so take a listen, give us a review, and enjoy your weekend. 01:50 - The FCC’s plan to kill net neutrality will also kill internet privacy 16:59 - Qualcomm sues Apple for hobbling its iPhone chips to make Intel look better 33:12 - Microsoft reveals its final Xbox Project Scorpio specs 52:00 - Nintendo doesn’t want your money — it wants your soul 1:00:03 - Paul’s weekly segment “Guess who’s got a birthday coming up?” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Nilay Patel?

  Hello and welcome to The Vergecast, the flagship podcast of Theverge.com. Multi-sensory media experience. Mostly it's just the one sense. It's just the hearing sense. It's not the other ones. No, Theverge.com is a multi-sensory. Oh, yes.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  We're the hearing part of it.

• 0:20Nilay Patel?

  We're the hearing part of it, yeah. There's a visual.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  There's a visual.

• 0:23Nilay Patel?

  There's a distinct odor. What of intelligence? And razor-sharp wit. Anyway, I'm Neelai Patel, I'm the editor-in-chief of The Verge. I got a whole crew in the studio with me today. This is great. This is more humans together. Dieter is here.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Hi. Do I sound better?

• 0:42Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 0:44Nilay Patel?

  Let's go with it.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Things are good.

• 0:46Nilay Patel?

  Paul is here.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 0:48Nilay Patel?

  Paul's usually here. So that's great.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Most of the time.

• 0:51Nilay Patel?

  But Chris Plant is also here.

• 0:52Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 0:53Nilay Patel?

  What's up, man?

• 0:54Speaker 03

  Oh, nothing. Just, you know, living my best life.

• 0:56Nilay Patel?

  Why do you sound...

• 0:57Speaker 02

  I'm laughing. If you're listening, we started the pre-show by commenting on Chris's wonderful ability to say hello in a very friendly and disarming way.

• 1:11Speaker 03

  I don't know what you're talking about.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  Now he's refusing to do it?

• 1:14Speaker 03

  Hello!

• 1:15Nilay Patel?

  Now he just sounds like Mork from Mork and Mindy.

• 1:18Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:19Nilay Patel?

  That's what I think he sounded like.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  How old are you?

• 1:21Speaker 03

  Yeah!

• 1:22Nilay Patel?

  What? That was a part of my youth.

• 1:24Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 1:25Nilay Patel?

  You don't like aliens?

• 1:26Speaker 03

  I don't know what you're talking about, JK. I'm also old. Robin Williams.

• 1:30Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Anyway, look.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  This is gonna get dark.

• 1:33Nilay Patel?

  No, it's gonna be a great show, but we're gonna start boring.

• 1:35Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:36Nilay Patel?

  This is what I want the audience to know. There's a lot to talk about.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Stick around for Microsoft and Nintendo.

• 1:41Nilay Patel?

  Chris and Paul are fired up about Nintendo news.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:46Nilay Patel?

  But you have to wait for it.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Now it's time for your vegetables.

• 1:49Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I would like to start with internet policy and patent.

• 1:53Speaker 03

  Oh, no! Why am I here for every episode of this?

• 1:57Speaker 02

  It's because it's every episode!

• 1:59Speaker 03

  Oh, gosh!

• 2:00Speaker 01

  I just want everybody to know that the other day, I worked for maybe 15 minutes on a tweet that was gonna incorporate "You've got a friend in me," but make it "FRIEND."

• 2:13Nilay Patel?

  Okay, here's the-

• 2:14Speaker 01

  And I did it. I did it, pulled off.

• 2:17Nilay Patel?

  You couldn't get there.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  But that's the thing, that's what I do every day. Is I restrain myself on Twitter. And nobody had to see that. I don't do that.

• 2:25Nilay Patel?

  Here's, here's, here's the problem. Okay. I spent, I would say, all of 2012 and 2013 writing about patents, smartphone patents. Then it was over. Apple and Samsung. I mean, that case is still going on. It was just in front of the Supreme Court. I mean, like, but it was like mostly over. Apple won. You know, all the settlements started happening, and then they were just arguing about who's gonna pay who, but who cares, right? It's just dollars. That's like dollar amounts. It's not about the moral outrage of copying the iPhone. So now that I was done, I was like, ah, I can write about some interesting stuff. Then the net neutrality fight happened, and I spent all of 2014 and 15 writing about internet policy.

• 3:09Nilay Patel?

  Which I was, I thought it was fun, because I was all fired up. But then-

• 3:13Speaker 01

  It was done.

• 3:14Nilay Patel?

  Net neutrality passed. It was done. I know Paul was sad, but I was happy, so that was cool for me. And I was like, great, we're gonna write about some stuff. Now it's 2017, and literally every day, there is Apple versus Qualcomm patent news, or more net neutrality news.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  Wait, do you think you're being punished because you clearly didn't do anything during 2016?

• 3:36Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, 2016, I just, I just skated.

• 3:39Speaker 03

  I was wondering.

• 3:40Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I just hung back.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Maybe this is like a desperate plea by the tech industry for more opinion pieces by Neelai Patel.

• 3:48Nilay Patel?

  That's what they want.

• 3:51Nilay Patel?

  So I, so, the, the net neutrality stuff is like, it's basically just news updates, so we can do that real fast. So, the Internet Association, which represents Google, Facebook, Netflix, a bunch of other companies, sat down in front of the chairman of the FCC, Ajit Pai, and said, "Don't, don't screw this up. We need net neutrality. Our businesses depend on it. We know that you generally side with the telco's, Verizon, Comcast, whatever.

• 4:18Nilay Patel?

  But don't screw it up." But they backed off, like, they don't care if it's Title II or not. They want, it's like four things. They want no paid prioritization, they want no blocking, they want the FCC to stay in charge of it, there's something else, but it's basically a capitulation. We know you're gonna screw this up. Like, we're backing away from the thing that we wanted, we won, but don't mess with it. So that's like one big piece of news.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, so if you're hoping that, you know, Netflix, Google, Apple, Amazon, whoever is in this association are like gonna be your net neutrality champion because they wrote a letter and they don't like what the, you know, what Ajay Poi wants to do, like, they're not actually asking for much.

• 4:57Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Then, so that, like, that's like the most recent thing that happened. But then, over the past, I don't know, four days,

• 5:07Nilay Patel?

  Pi has been like taking these meetings. So he met with the big companies, but he also met with the telecom companies. And he basically laid out a plan. And if you pay attention to, like, how news happens, that meeting and the plan laid out in it was leaked in almost exact fashion to like three different news services.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Almost like it was supposed to happen.

• 5:29Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, almost like a coordinated release of information happened. And the plan is insane. Like, I just, I just wanna put this out. You can have a plan. I think that's fine. But his plan is, we'll get rid of net neutrality in the law. And then I'll get the internet providers of America to put the rules in their terms of service agreements. And then everything will be fine.

• 5:53Speaker 03

  Now, I, I, I confess.

• 5:57Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 5:57Speaker 03

  I don't know as much about this as really anybody in this room.

• 6:01Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  But, I read your article about it. I, I have a different opinion.

• 6:06Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 6:06Speaker 03

  Only because, so like, some people, like, read books.

• 6:10Nilay Patel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  And other people, like, enjoy watching streaming shows.

• 6:13Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  All of my free time is spent reading Terms of Service.

• 6:17Nilay Patel?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 03

  So like, for somebody like me,

• 6:20Nilay Patel?

  It's great.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  This is big.

• 6:21Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  I'm gonna be reading Terms of Service. I'm gonna have so much to read, forever.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Well, no, and the good news is when you're reading-

• 6:28Nilay Patel?

  You're constantly updating iTunes to read the new Terms of Service.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  When you're reading the Terms of Service and you come across something from your internet provider that you don't like, you've got like six or seven other internet providers that you could choose to give your money for high-speed access to. Because there's like, there's real genuine competition for high-speed internet access, and so you can just pick whichever one has the best Terms of Service.

• 6:49Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  That's how that's gonna work.

• 6:50Nilay Patel?

  Normal, that's great.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  Now you're hurting me. Now you're talking about how I'm still stuck with Time Warner. And there's even a good local one in Austin. But they stop like three blocks away from your house.

• 7:01Nilay Patel?

  Are you kidding?

• 7:02Speaker 03

  It's so good.

• 7:03Nilay Patel?

  Go Monoprice, get like a 200 foot ethernet cable.

• 7:07Speaker 03

  Oh, this is a good idea.

• 7:10Nilay Patel?

  Pringle cans. This is Monoprice's new business.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  Oh, I am like, you joke, but like...

• 7:15Nilay Patel?

  They stand at the border of the good internet company.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Everybody in the neighborhood is gonna be on like the neighborhood Facebook being like, "What's up with this new ethernet port running through all our yards?" I'm like, "Shh, don't, nobody, nobody say anything."

• 7:26Nilay Patel?

  Um, anyway, but that's his plan. The plan, like, I, all I'm saying is, most people don't read these Terms of Service agreements. We have covered so many times when like Instagram changes its Terms of Service agreement, and then there's like outrage, and people do insane things because they don't understand them. But then Instagram, or Facebook, or Twitter, whatever, never actually change it. Like, the outrage will happen. There's a hashtag campaign, various Kardashians get involved, and Instagram's like, "What are you gonna do? Are you gonna stop using Instagram?" And everyone's like, "No, we're just gonna, we're just gonna be annoying on it for a couple of days." And then they don't change it. So it's not like Terms of, even when there is like competition, they don't change.

• 8:10Nilay Patel?

  So, this is the plan. And it just seems like, oh, and if you start a new internet company, which is Pi's whole thing, like, that's his idealistic vision. "I'm gonna reduce all the regulations, we're gonna make it so you can make more money on networks, that will provide incentives for people to start more networks." That, I mean, idealistically, that's what he wants, and that's, as a policy, is fine. But if you start a new internet company, why do you have to follow the rules? So it's just a very confusing moment in terms of policymaking. He's like, "I'm gonna say everyone should make this promise, and then everyone will," which doesn't make any sense, "and then everyone who comes after me for generations will know to make this promise."

• 8:54Speaker 03

  Let me know, am I understanding your read on this right? Your idea would be like... Okay, the law of the land is, don't murder fools.

• 9:06Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 9:06Speaker 03

  But, what if somebody was like, "I don't like it as a law, but what if, 'Don't murder fools' was just like the terms of service for going into Walmart and every other place?"

• 9:19Nilay Patel?

  It's more like, I mean, literally this comes down to like, the philosophic basis for law. Like, should there only be norms in a society, or should there be codified law?

• 9:34Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I stand with Hammurabi on that one.

• 9:37Nilay Patel?

  Right, it's like, very confusing.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  But this isn't law, this is regulation.

• 9:41Nilay Patel?

  Laws are regulations. There's a regulation in this country against killing people. There's a regulation in every state.

• 9:48Speaker 03

  Except for the one day of the year, that is.

• 9:50Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. The purge. But on that day, net neutrality is the law.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  And the purge is the law.

• 9:54Nilay Patel?

  It keeps you inside, because you can just download all the stuff without prioritization. But if you go outside, you get purged.

• 10:00Speaker 03

  Wow, when you put it like that, the purge does sound so bad.

• 10:04Nilay Patel?

  There's no difference between a law and a regulation. It's a nonsensical definition.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  The way that it has been implemented, and that we've arrived at this, like, the whole problem and the back and forth and this weirdness of the FCC and the FTC, and the reason Congress had to try to, like, to change what the privacy thing is, and like, all this work and movement around, is because the FCC, a regulatory agency that was set up by Congress, decided to expand its power and scope by reclassifying something.

• 10:38Nilay Patel?

  No, but that's its power.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:40Nilay Patel?

  But that is the power that it has.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  It used the scope that was, "We don't need to relitigate this." Although, we're not actually talking about laws here, we're talking about privacy, so we're not gonna litigate it.

• 10:49Nilay Patel?

  Right, you move the window, like, the fundamental question that the head of the FCC is asking America, is, "Do you think there should be laws, or should we all just make promises to each other and assume it'll be fine?"

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Should the internet work how it worked before it was reclassified, which seemed to be doing pretty good, or should we keep trying to fix the problems that have been brought up by this?

• 11:13Nilay Patel?

  Or, do we take the norms and turn them into laws?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Title 2 is like, "Hey, you are now protected monopolies, the FTC has no oversight over you, and now the FCC has to figure out how to be the FTC for internet companies."

• 11:29Nilay Patel?

  Well, I disagree on that part, but I think the Title II debate was all about, was about, do we take the norms for how the internet has been working, recognize that access competition is low, and turn those norms into laws?

• 11:43Speaker 02

  And I would also, I also disagree with you on, like, the internet was fine before Title II. We were heading down a bad path, and then we turned off, and now we're like back on the freeway.

• 11:53Nilay Patel?

  Sure.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  We like, we like took an exit to like McDonald's and like had a, had a really nice Sunday, and then now we're getting back on the road to, to, uh, hell.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  I'm sorry, do you get to murder people at this McDonald's?

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:05Nilay Patel?

  The Purge McDonald's?

• 12:06Speaker 03

  I will say, can I say this?

• 12:08Nilay Patel?

  But that's, but I would say, for our tech podcast to now be at the level of, should we trust the internet companies to follow norms in the absence of competition, or should there be laws, is crazy town. Right? Like, now we're having a legal, like a legal philosophy debate, not a policy debate.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  We, we don't all agree on that.

• 12:29Nilay Patel?

  No, we don't all agree, but it's just, that's where we are in terms of the net neutrality fight right now.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I, I will say this, one, I like it, I like the debate, but two, I like, I like that Paul is here.

• 12:41Nilay Patel?

  I love talking to Paul.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  No, I know, but like, we hear, we hear this debate, and I always like, whenever I listen, I'm like, poor Paul, but also brave Paul. Because to like, come into a room and, uh, and be the other side, usually it seems like with this debate in our community, there isn't the other side.

• 12:58Nilay Patel?

  There is, there is. Paul, uh, Paul is the only person who routinely advocates for the other side, who I don't believe is crazy.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:06Nilay Patel?

  I've, I've met a lot of the other people, and they're all either paid for by telecom companies. Paul?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Disclaimer, Comcast.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  I was at one time employed by an internet service provider of sorts.

• 13:19Nilay Patel?

  Yes.

• 13:20Speaker 03

  But it was a good one.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Also Comcast invested in our company, so in a sense...

• 13:24Nilay Patel?

  No, that's not true.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Okay, I take that.

• 13:26Speaker 03

  Hey, Comcast invested in our company.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Well, they're invested in our parent company.

• 13:29Nilay Patel?

  That's the disclosure.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  Comcast has money everywhere.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  They do not pay us.

• 13:33Nilay Patel?

  They don't pay us. Certainly Comcast is not paying for my personal coverage of this issue. They're not getting their money's worth.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Full disclosure, I do have a choice between FiOS and Optimum at my current apartment.

• 13:48Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, so Paul's just living the life.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:50Nilay Patel?

  Because every day he's calling the FiOS people, and he's like, he would change those terms of service.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Make me a deal.

• 13:54Nilay Patel?

  I'm going Optimum.

• 13:57Nilay Patel?

  Anyway, that's where we are with that. There's no like, big news. I just wanted to point out that literally, the, the, the, the window of the conversation is not necessarily about the policy right now. Because Pi wants the policy to exist. He wants the this, the place the internet is now without paid prioritization and blocking and all that stuff. He, he's fine with that. He just thinks the rules should be gone formally.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Well, and

• 14:23Nilay Patel?

  And he thinks the internet service providers should promise their customers they won't do it.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Because this is so complicated of what, how it will actually go down with the government. And that's hard for me to follow all, all the time. I'll just make

• 14:35Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  My stance clear, which is, I think been fairly consistent, is that I love net neutrality as a norm. As, as a, as a good, I think, business plan and as a good way to work. But I don't think the government should force a company to adhere to it.

• 14:54Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  And I think other, like, reasonable laws, like, don't spy on your customers,

• 15:03Speaker 01

  can be applied to internet companies in the same way that they're applied to other companies.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  So, I mean, that's, that's basically where I'm at.

• 15:12Nilay Patel?

  I'm not, it's funny, because it's not even that that like, gets me. It's this idea that

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Like

• 15:17Nilay Patel?

  You can get Comcast and AT&T and Verizon and Spectrum and RCN and my tiny little cable company in upstate New York, Mid Hudson Cable, in a room. And have them all agree to the same language in their term of service provision. That is just like, hopelessly idealistic.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  It sounds like an end around.

• 15:37Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  I don't, it doesn't seem like the right choice. End around-ing.

• 15:40Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  It does sound like an end around.

• 15:42Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, whatever that is. Whatever that doomed idea is. But that's where we are with that. Okay, I promise, we're gonna do the quick, one more quick boring thing.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  No, go ahead. I love boring stuff. I'm already asleep.

• 15:53Nilay Patel?

  I know it's boring, but it, to me

• 15:55Speaker 03

  No, to like, our listeners, and they're the people I care about.

• 15:57Nilay Patel?

  Well, they're just in their cars, driving along the road.

• 15:59Speaker 03

  Doing it for you.

• 16:00Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. The road, which I would point out, is heavily regulated by the government.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Not when you pull off to murder McDonald's, though, and get yourself a little

• 16:09Nilay Patel?

  On the weird private murder road.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Or you could go on the for-profit toll highway, which is a much faster way to get from Colorado Springs to the Denver area.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Can I just briefly say that, um, the stock pixels call thing is getting better and better? I had a call earlier today that was like, um, like, potential spam? And I was like, I don't have to answer that.

• 16:32Nilay Patel?

  If you're in your car.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Just rang and my whole screen turned like bright, bright danger red, and it just said, "Survey."

• 16:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  I'm not answering that either. It's great.

• 16:41Nilay Patel?

  It's funny that they picked red, because what if it's like Russia?

• 16:46Nilay Patel?

  What if it's like, "Only you can stop it"? You're like, "Oh, red. That must be a survey." "No bombs today, thanks." Survey shouldn't be bomb.

• 16:55Nilay Patel?

  Well, he didn't answer.

• 16:58Nilay Patel?

  Anyway, the other thing that's happening, and I just want to point out, because I think it's huge, and it's so complicated, that I've spent three days trying to figure out exactly what's happening, and I can't. I'm still working it through.

• 17:12Nilay Patel?

  Apple sued Qualcomm. Qualcomm sued Apple back. They just filed their lawsuit a couple of days ago. The FTC also sued Qualcomm a while back. They did it in the last weeks of the Obama administration. I was tweeting, I was reading all the filings. I was tweeting about them. Qualcomm's general counsel called me on the phone to yell at me. Apple and Qualcomm hate each other. I didn't know that before. Wait. They hate each other.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  A deep visceral hate.

• 17:42Nilay Patel?

  No, no, no, no. Apple is like one of Qualcomm's biggest customers. They shouldn't hate each other. They should just be making piles of money together.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  They are making piles of money together.

• 17:52Nilay Patel?

  We can still hate each other.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  And they're arguing over who gets, uh, to like push the piles around.

• 17:57Nilay Patel?

  Apple, in its patent filing, described Qualcomm's business as a scheme of relentless extortion, which is crazy.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:05Nilay Patel?

  So Qualcomm has all these patents on CDMA chips, on the CDMA technology. They basically invented that stack that Verizon runs on, uh, Verizon 3G runs on. They invented a ton of the LTE stack, so they have a bunch of patents on LTE. They make some of the only modems that can go fast enough. They sell the modems to Apple, but they don't license the patents to Apple. They license the patents to Apple's contract manufacturers like Pegatron and Fox.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  I did not know about.

• 18:30Nilay Patel?

  Which is insanity.

• 18:33Nilay Patel?

  The FTC sued Qualcomm and said, this is really wonky. Just go with me on this. Is it, are you gonna say, are you gonna say Fran?

• 18:40Speaker 03

  Not Fran.

• 18:40Nilay Patel?

  Not Fran yet. Is it Fran time? Not Fran yet.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I made a Fran reference really early in the podcast.

• 18:45Speaker 03

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You got a Fran.

• 18:48Nilay Patel?

  There it is.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying, that's what I'm saying, but I'm waiting for the payoff.

• 18:50Nilay Patel?

  Okay, I'll do the payoff first. The, the Fran, it's literally a throwback. We've done this on this podcast. We should just find all the old Fran podcasts. If you, if you contribute to the standard, everyone recognizes that you, the point of the standard is everyone can make stuff that connects to the standard.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:08Nilay Patel?

  That's why I have a standard. But if you invented the standard, then you have a ton of control. You get to make money from the standard. So there's rules. The standards organizations say, well, if you're gonna contribute patents to the standard, or technologies that are patented to the standard, you have to license your patents to everybody on fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory terms.

• 19:25Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 19:26Nilay Patel?

  Fran? Friends.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  No, it's easy to remember because Fran.

• 19:30Nilay Patel?

  Fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  As in like Fran Drescher, who is deeply likable and treats everybody equally.

• 19:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 03

  It's easy to remember.

• 19:40Nilay Patel?

  She never discriminates.

• 19:41Speaker 03

  Fran Drescher, the nanny.

• 19:42Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, the nanny, in nanny terms. What's Fran Drescher doing these days?

• 19:46Speaker 03

  Wow, nanny state, am I right?

• 19:47Nilay Patel?

  Oh my god. Anyway, uh, the FTC sued, uh, Qualcomm. Because Qualcomm, under the patent, uh, the doctrine of patent exhaustion, when they sell you the chips, the money has been made. They've already made the patented stuff and they made the money on it. They can't demand a license to the patents. Yeah, cuz they sold you the thing. Just like when you buy a car as a consumer. The car's full of patented stuff. Or you buy a phone, the phone's full of patented stuff. You don't then need a patent license to use the thing. So FTC says, well, you have this policy where you demand a license to sell the chips. That's illegal. So FTC sues them. Apple sues them, saying, scheme of relentless extortion because of this thing.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  I'm like, oh, see FTC is right. They had that idea all on their own. And we're gonna sue you too.

• 20:33Nilay Patel?

  Qualcomm sues Apple back, says, you've been illegally goading governments around the world into suing us for unfair competition practices, against violating an agreement we have with you, Apple, literally titled, "The Cooperation Agreement."

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:50Nilay Patel?

  It's true.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  I always get a cooperation agreement.

• 20:53Nilay Patel?

  And then, this is why the general counsel of Qualcomm called me. They snuck in one more claim, which is insanity, but I think they did it to get headlines, and said, well, when the iPhone 7 came out, some of them, the ones at AT&T and the unlocked ones, had Intel modems, the GSM ones, basically. And the ones for Verizon had Qualcomm modems. Just Apple switched suppliers. Why they switched suppliers? Cooperation agreement ended. See, I'm getting all worked up.

• 21:22Speaker 02

  Also, they didn't sue, they didn't happen to have sued Qualcomm until they switched suppliers.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Isn't that weird?

• 21:26Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's funny. It's funny. Dieter, our cooperation agreement is about to come to an end.

• 21:34Nilay Patel?

  So Apple, when they put out the thing, people discovered they have two modems. Bloomberg says, are there any differences in these modems? Apple said that, there is no discernible difference. We've done tons of tests, they should be the same. They say they are the same. There's no discernible difference. They do not use the word "should." Then people actually do the test. Qualcomm modem has been capped. So it's much faster than Intel modem, but Apple's software limited it to make it seem like the Intel modem.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  They put a governor on it.

• 21:59Nilay Patel?

  But it's still so much better that it, particularly at low network connectivity levels, it's better. So it's just a better thing. Qualcomm, in its lawsuit, this big, multifaceted lawsuit, says, well, you harmed consumers by lying about our modem. And if you had told the truth about how much better our modem was in the iPhone 7, consumers would have demanded the superior Qualcomm product.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  So Qualcomm is creating a class action for consumers, right?

• 22:26Speaker 02

  So they're saying, customers would have demanded the superior Qualcomm product, and we would have made more money.

• 22:30Nilay Patel?

  We would have made more money. Which is insane, just insane. Insane, but they hate each other. Like, I have never heard these two, like, even Apple and Samsung hated each other, but Apple would be like, you know, Samsung is a value supplier, we just want them to stop copying. Here, they're like, we hate you. Like, straight up, we hate you, we don't want to use your stuff, we want to switch to Intel, we don't want to pay these license fees, we hate it all. And Qualcomm's like, Apple is running around the world lying to people about us. Like, that is their claim. Did you hear what he said about? Yeah, literally, these claims are so complicated that they involve the Chinese government suing Qualcomm, in the, I'm sorry, the Korean government suing Qualcomm,

• 23:13Nilay Patel?

  statements Apple made to the Korean trade regulator in response to questions. And Qualcomm says their agreements with Apple supersede Apple's obligations to respond to the Korean government. Oh, my god! It's amazing. Then Qualcomm and Meizu are involved in some litigation in China, and Apple responded to some of that. Qualcomm is like, you breached our agreement because you are involved in this Meizu litigation. Apple says, none of your patents even are valid because you put them up in this other Chinese lawsuit, so they're not valid, and it's bonkers.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  I have a general, like, a knee-jerk dislike and skepticism of software patents.

• 23:57Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  But I will say, looking into how LTE works, it is not simple.

• 24:06Nilay Patel?

  It is not simple.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  It is, it is, like, basically, I mean, if you imagine, like, imagine in the simplest model of how radios work, they're just waves, and they're bouncing everywhere.

• 24:17Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  And these phones are decoding, one for me, one for me right now, one for Dieter, one for you, one for Chris, like, they are doing so much processing, it's absurd, and it's like, it's like hacking

• 24:34Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  the Germans every five seconds. Well, this is the enigma.

• 24:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Weird time to go to the Germans.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  I'm saying.

• 24:42Nilay Patel?

  Literally, only country not involved in this lawsuit.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Who'll get there?

• 24:48Nilay Patel?

  Uh, yeah, they'll get there. Um, no, you're right. It's like the, it's literally the state of the art. It's not easy to do. Qualcomm did invent a bunch of it.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:56Nilay Patel?

  There's a, there's pages and pages in their filing.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  I just don't know.

• 24:59Nilay Patel?

  The detail, the wonky invention of CDMA.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:02Nilay Patel?

  Um, which is fun to read if you're into it.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Apple, uh, so first of all, the two, like, at a, outside of all the details, going back to what we said at the beginning, this seems like these two companies are just making unbelievable piles of money. And then they have big giant sticks that they use to push the money around between each other and like divvy it up a little bit.

• 25:21Nilay Patel?

  There's a chart.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  And then there was a little bit of pushing and shoving on the sticks and like Qualcomm like reached over and pulled over an extra bag of money. And now they're just hitting each other with the sticks. And that's what's happening.

• 25:32Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I mean, literally, there's a chart in Apple's filing, which I love because it's so confusing. And Apple, it's like under the heading of this chart illustrates the scheme of relentless extortion.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:47Nilay Patel?

  And it's just like the Apple logo and a Qualcomm logo and like

• 25:50Speaker 03

  Acronyms.

• 25:51Nilay Patel?

  circular arrows like between them and then lines down between and then boxes that say things like rebate equals dollar sign.

• 25:58Speaker 03

  Oh, no, that's better. It's a lot of like

• 26:00Nilay Patel?

  Hang on.

• 26:00Speaker 03

  S Q A.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Doesn't this boil down to Apple went to Qualcomm and said, hey, you're double dipping. And then Qualcomm went to Apple and said, you weren't supposed to tell anybody we're double dipping.

• 26:11Nilay Patel?

  Basically.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  And now they're, and that's, that, those are the lawsuits.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  One of the basic claims against Qualcomm is that they would charge manufacturers a, a license fee even when they weren't using Qualcomm.

• 26:25Nilay Patel?

  Right. So no one else, no other company can make as many modems as Qualcomm. Right? Or as high performing modems as Qualcomm. So at the top end of the industry, you're kind of locked into Qualcomm's modem. Unless you're Apple and you buy Qualcomm's modem and decrease its performance so that you can also use the Intel modem. So Qualcomm knows that. They, with all the manufacturers, like Foxconn has a license to Qualcomm's patents. So they're paying that license fee whether they ship the Qualcomm chip or they ship the Intel chip. Oh, here's another thing I didn't know. Apple buys the phones from Foxconn. So we think that Foxconn is like the company that puts the things together. No, no, no. Apple buys each phone from Foxconn, which I never understood. Yeah, it's just like a weird little fact that's buried in these lawsuits.

• 27:11Nilay Patel?

  But if Qualcomm, if Foxconn uses Intel chips, they still have to pay the license, even though Intel probably already paid the license. And even though Qualcomm didn't do anything.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  I have a question. So there was a quote-

• 27:25Nilay Patel?

  And if they don't pay the license, they can't get Qualcomm chips. So there's a lot of this double dipping. And so Apple got mad. And the rebate equals dollar sign is, they said, well, this is stupid. And Qualcomm said, well, if you agree to just use our chips, we'll just rebate you the royalty fees that you're paying. So Apple pays the money to Foxconn, Foxconn pays the money to Qualcomm, Qualcomm pays the money back to Apple, which is insanity.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I gotta get in that loop.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Meanwhile, they just settled with BlackBerry and Qualcomm is paying BlackBerry 880 million dollars.

• 27:54Nilay Patel?

  Eight hundred million dollars.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  BlackBerry probably made more money off of Qualcomm being bad at patents. They did on actually selling phones.

• 28:02Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's unclear what specifically the complaint was there. Because it was in arbitration.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:07Nilay Patel?

  And it's Canadian law, which we all know is based on politeness.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  And apologizing.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  So there's a line that you tweeted from Qualcomm that it was like, our fees are totally reasonable. They're like substantially less. I forget the exact word.

• 28:24Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, per phone, they're less than an iPhone case.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  That's a lot of money. A lot. They said a lot less or substantially less, right?

• 28:32Nilay Patel?

  Than a plastic iPhone case, not even one of your fancy leather cases.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  So that's like thirty dollars?

• 28:36Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, right?

• 28:37Speaker 01

  So what, does anybody know what we're talking? Like if I buy a $700 iPhone, how much of that was-

• 28:45Nilay Patel?

  Oh, this is another thing.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  A Qualcomm-

• 28:47Nilay Patel?

  Man, I am so deep in this hole. And I said it was boring and I said it was fast, but we're just deep in the hole. Where did it get to that Nintendo stuff?

• 28:52Speaker 03

  No, no, no.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Thanks for coming on the show, Chris.

• 28:56Nilay Patel?

  Apple's, Qualcomm's fees are based on the consumer selling price of the phone, which is crazy. At least, Apple says it's crazy. I also think it's a little crazy. But if you buy a 64 gig iPhone, Apple pays less in patent royalties to Qualcomm than if you buy 128 gig.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  But they have the same modem.

• 29:14Nilay Patel?

  They have the same part in it.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  This is amazing.

• 29:17Nilay Patel?

  Right? If you buy a hundred dollar prepaid LTE phone, Qualcomm gets less money. Even though, like, generally, it's the same part. And fundamentally, they're using the same patents.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:26Nilay Patel?

  So Apple's like, this is insanity. Like, as a price of our phone goes up, as we invent more stuff, and like, put more stuff in the modem.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:34Nilay Patel?

  Or in the phone.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  Oh, that's the other thing. The other thing that's in Qualcomm's suit is they like, they basically like, took credit for like Snapchat.

• 29:40Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Yeah, but that's like, everybody does that. They're like, we made the internet, so Snapchat, you belong to us.

• 29:46Speaker 03

  This kinda just sounds like, do you remember that time that the Terminator made all that money off the Terminator? Like, when Arnold Schwarzenegger, like, made more money than Terminator 3, I think it was? Whichever, like, the one where he came back, and it happened, and, like, all of Hollywood looked at the contract, and they were like, oh, it turns out, the entire system doesn't make sense. And all it took was like, a really good agent slash contract writer to like, see through the bull crud. And like, be like, oh, I could just exploit this, and then make a ton of money.

• 30:28Speaker 03

  And then Schwarzenegger, like, made a ton of money, and then everybody learned, and then they like, didn't make that mistake again. This sounds like that. It sounded like somebody was really, really good at contract writing, and now people are stuck in it.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  It's like that, except the only actor on the planet is Arnold Schwarzenegger.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. But it sounded like there was a really good contract, and now people are like, oh.

• 30:54Nilay Patel?

  No, no, no, I was like, I saw slower modems.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Intel and Jean Claude Van Damme, Qualcomm. Intel's like Paul Rudd.

• 31:01Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  I love Paul Rudd.

• 31:03Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, everybody likes Paul Rudd. Paul Rudd's really nice.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  That's Ant-Man?

• 31:06Nilay Patel?

  Yes. It's like, Terminator versus Ant-Man. This is what you've just set up.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  That's about right.

• 31:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  I mean, he's not best known for Ant-Man.

• 31:16Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  He's best known for the fit he throws in, uh, What Happened to American Tom?

• 31:22Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  That's the most important Paul Rudd. I mean, I would pay him at least like two iPhone cases worth.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Just to keep that floating around in my brain.

• 31:38Nilay Patel?

  What is the secret of a well groomed guy? The Art of Shaving. Founded in New York in 1996, so long ago. The Art of Shaving has been helping guys look their best for over 20 years. The Art of Shaving has your total routine covered, whether shaving, beard maintenance, hair, skin, body, fragrance, whatever else. The Art of Shaving award winning products are formulated with the highest quality botanical ingredients featuring pure essential oils. The four elements of the perfect shave have been created to deliver smooth results every day. Start by prepping your skin with their signature pre shave oil. Then you create a thick foamy lather with shaving cream, applied with a handcrafted Badger hairbrush. Then you shave. Then you replenish your moisture with their aftershave balm. Finish off the perfect shave with one of five new fragrances.

• 32:22Nilay Patel?

  Sandalwood and Cypress, Oud Suede, Vetoversitron, Green Lavender, and Coriander and Cardamom. Each cologne has been carefully assembled for a distinctive scent. The Art of Shaving offers a convenient replenishment service that allows you to save on your favorite products while never having to worry about running out. So, listeners receive 15% off their first order. You get free shipping by using the promo code VERGE. To get this offer, go to theartofshaving.com and use the special promo code VERGE to get 15% off your first order and you get free shipping. That's offer code VERGE, V E R G E, at theartofshaving.com. I encourage you to do this, to order Oud Suede, and then tweet at us and tell us what on earth that smells like and how it's different than suede, because it's oud.

• 33:07Nilay Patel?

  Sounds oud.

• 33:10Nilay Patel?

  All right, you got your money's worth at Art of Shaving. Tell me about Microsoft, dear.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  There's a bunch of Microsoft stuff. They had already given us like final specs on what Project Scorpio, their next console is going to be. And then we saw the dev, what the dev kit looks like, which looks like a really tall Xbox One S. And then-

• 33:30Nilay Patel?

  It's got those like buttons on the front.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  It's got some buttons and it's got, it tells you your framerate, it's got a display.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  That's what I want.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then they finally announced when they're gonna announce it and like show us the console. And it's at 83.

• 33:43Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:44Nilay Patel?

  That's not too surprising.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:46Speaker 02

  It's like a little surprising.

• 33:48Nilay Patel?

  Is Xbox, are they still in the game? We've written a couple of things, like the PS4 is so far ahead.

• 33:52Speaker 03

  I have some, I have some theories.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  About what I think is going to happen.

• 33:56Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 33:57Speaker 03

  I think they have to have a like, oh, and by the way, it does this thing. Like, that was kind of their thing with Xbox One originally, right? Like, they were so caught up in them, by the way, that they like, kind of forgot to talk about the games when they launched it. But they're like, they started with like, by the way, you plug in your cable to it because we know that you love cable. And, and like, this guide kind of connects your cable. And like, down the road, we would like it to connect your streaming apps, which is like this like unicorn everybody's been chasing ever since.

• 34:31Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, we're a whole future about this.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, and like, no, good luck, that's not gonna happen anytime soon. Uh, so they've like, it seems like given up on that, right?

• 34:41Nilay Patel?

  Absolutely. They thought all those people are gone.

• 34:43Speaker 03

  So, to you, about a year and a half ago, I went over there and met with them and like, was like, hey, what's your plan? And they gave me this whole spiel about like, we're gonna be releasing incremental hardware, that was one part.

• 34:57Nilay Patel?

  Yep.

• 34:57Speaker 03

  And, uh...

• 34:59Speaker 02

  They've done that, by the way. They put out the one S and then they're like, Scorpio's coming, yeah. They're, they're doing a good job of putting out a console almost every year or every year for the hell of it.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, and really Scorpio may be like, the first version. I would not be surprised if maybe even something a little more modular happened even further down the line.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  Uh, and we'll see. But the other thing they said was, hey, like, people love Xbox, at least they did before the Xbox One. And like, people don't really have such warm feelings about Windows. Ironically, in the kind of like, 14 months since this, I think that's kind of the opposite. Um, but they, they were kind of vibing in that at the time. And they were like, we're gonna really start bringing Windows and Xbox together. So like, you'll be able to buy some games on Xbox and they'll just play on your Windows device and Xbox anywhere, like, Windows 10, it works on everything. Your Xbox is kind of like Windows 10. And I would not be surprised if the big...

• 35:53Speaker 03

  Big like, oh, by the way, is, oh, by the way, plug a keyboard into this and it's a computer. Yeah.

• 36:00Nilay Patel?

  It's like the ultimate steam machine.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  And, and, and this is just a PC now. If you've spent a little dollar, a little bit more money. And hey, are you a college kid going off to, off to school? Get this, you're gonna have the best games and also it runs Word. Like, and it's so boring and it's such a Microsoft thing to think that everybody, like, they're gonna say it at like E3. And, eh, like, they're gonna be like, you know, like, turn around and look at the teleprompter and it's gonna say, hold for the biggest applause ever. But it's just gonna be like, quiet in the room. But like, I, I think, I think that has to be the end goal, is like, them bringing Xbox becoming a platform. Because it's not-

• 36:43Nilay Patel?

  It already is a platform.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  No, but I mean like Xbox becoming Steam.

• 36:47Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, right. That's what they want.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  That's what they want. Because, and it's not a bad idea, because you're, is Sony gonna win this like, console area? Yeah. Like, like, like, good luck catching up. And, and that's like, not, eh, the, the, I think the big reason that is, is Sony like, one, got really lucky and the exclusives that it decided to make actually shipped. And Microsoft had to cancel a, a large number of theirs. Um, and we can, we'll save the very, like, niche reasons why that might have been. But the other thing is like, Sony took Microsoft's playbook that was brilliant from the Xbox 360 era, which was, hey, if your friend has the console, you're probably gonna buy that one.

• 37:30Speaker 03

  So, don't worry about, uh, spending money on, you know, DLC exclusives. Get like that multiplayer map two months early. And they like spent it in so many places, number one being Destiny. Uh, and now they like, ended up taking the Call of Duty thing, which Microsoft had held on to for so long. They have Destiny 2 coming up. And like, that's how you win this generation. A whole bunch of people bought PlayStations early and a whole bunch of people are gonna continue to buy PlayStations. Even if they're not the most powerful console, because where are you gonna play with your friends?

• 38:02Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  So like, eh, you, eh, you can't get behind in these generations anymore. But, that said, as we move away from consoles and we move into this idea of platforms, the best place to be will probably be the place that lets you win your games in perpetuity. And they get better every year if you want to spend more and more money on it. And they work on pretty much everything you own. And that is where Microsoft has its strengths. Like Sony won't be able to compete there. So did Sony like crush them this era? It doesn't certainly, in 2017, we'll be like, wow, Sony really blew them out. At least in the first half, like, it was rough. But like, I have a feeling that at the very high offices of Microsoft,

• 38:45Speaker 03

  I'm sure there's some sense of like, eh. Like, this is embarrassing for us, but like, our plan is like such a like, six to seven year plan right now. Like, we don't even need to, we're so invested in the long game, that we can cancel these games. Like, it doesn't matter if they don't come out. I don't even know like, how honestly interested they are in like, first party stuff. I like, the fact that they canceled so much stuff, and they only have like, three games announced right now.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  What are they canceled, yeah?

• 39:18Speaker 03

  Uh, oh my gosh, I'm trying to remember them. Well, they started Project Spark.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  And they canceled that. They had Scalebound. Uh, do you remember this? It was a JRPG. And they canceled, they canceled this game.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  I think this Steam comparison is really interesting because of all the stuff Microsoft's doing for backwards compatibility. And I know that's something that is a real big, like, win with PC games. Because I have a Steam library, and some of those games I bought like, I don't know, five years ago?

• 39:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Or longer. And they still work.

• 39:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  And it's really easy. You just go to your games library and you click on it, and then it downloads and then you play it. It's just like, I mean, it sounds like really obvious, but that's not really how consoles have been. It's like, well, I want to play a PS3 game?

• 40:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Well, I have to unplug the PS4 from the HDMI, and then I have to plug the PS3 in, and I have to go to my old shoebox that has the PS3 games in it, you know, like. So if Microsoft could do Steam, that would be, that'd be great. They also are doing a lot, like the new Windows 10 Creators update, they're like really into this Xbox.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  But there's a bunch of people in like the games industry that see very clearly that this is what Microsoft wants to do and like be Steam and like, oh. So they want to control everything. Everything will die. Microsoft will be in charge because they have really bad policies on their Windows Store and so. Say goodbye to your future as a freedom-loving video game player because we just all live in Satya's house now.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Isn't it the Tim Sweeney from, no, who is it? Who's the guy at Epic?

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's the one I'm like channeling right now.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  Just freaked out about that.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  I mean, but Steam already is that guy.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  What would be amazing?

• 41:07Nilay Patel?

  Well, what you want is for Steam to change its terms of service and then you compare them directly to Microsoft's terms of service.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  I want to install Steam on my Scorpio right next to my copy of Word. Chris Plant, please do this for me.

• 41:21Nilay Patel?

  Well, no, if it is just a PC.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  I'm curious about is.

• 41:24Nilay Patel?

  So I think this Word idea, I don't think they care about running Word. They're not going to tell college students you can run Word on your Xbox. College students have like.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Have you met Microsoft?

• 41:32Speaker 03

  I don't think you get this.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Have you met an 18-year-old trying to convince his parents to buy him?

• 41:40Nilay Patel?

  They have a Word on our TV. They have laptops, they have phones. Use Word on your phone. You can do that now.

• 41:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:46Nilay Patel?

  All your papers are going to be terrible.

• 41:48Speaker 03

  Got it.

• 41:49Nilay Patel?

  What they need is all the ancillary media apps. Cause I think they still want to do this like home media center thing. They want to increase the base of that Windows Store. They want apps.

• 42:03Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, I think they're right there. I don't know if I'm convinced that they still think they're the center of the home. I think, well, I think it's both in a weird way. I think they're just, I think, I think they think everything is a computer. I feel like they got away from their safe place, which is like. PCs and they're like, what did we do wrong? What do we know? PCs. Put PCs in the living room and they're like, oh, now we're, now we're cooking with gas.

• 42:29Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 42:30Speaker 02

  So by the way, your Steam on Scorpio Dream isn't going to happen and it's related to, I think.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  The May 2nd event where Microsoft is expected to focus on education and on this thing that Tom Warren's been writing about called Windows 10 Cloud.

• 42:50Nilay Patel?

  It's Windows 10 in the cloud. I don't know if you know about the cloud.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  If, if, I'm just saying, if the Xbox is just, hey, look, it's just Windows. It's not going to be just Windows like you know Windows. It's going to be just Windows that runs Windows Store apps. It's going to be, you know, the next generation of WinRT.

• 43:09Nilay Patel?

  I was gonna make a different WinRT.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Cause that's worked so well for them so far.

• 43:13Nilay Patel?

  Well, they haven't had.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Have you met Microsoft? This entire conversation boils down to one of us recognizing that this idea doesn't work and then everyone else realizing.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  We actually don't have time for me to get into it, but I actually, I'm wildly fascinated by, by Windows 10 Cloud.

• 43:30Nilay Patel?

  Well, no, so the thing is, there's this big argument.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  I'm gonna write, I'm gonna write it. We can't, we can't wait to start the podcast.

• 43:35Nilay Patel?

  But you, okay, well, you now have a deadline. You have to write, you publish it by tomorrow.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 43:39Nilay Patel?

  Cause people can't, they're not gonna hear the podcast.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Well, I guess we're not going out for a drink tonight then.

• 43:44Nilay Patel?

  But I really wanted to.

• 43:46Speaker 03

  That's me, I like drinking.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  I'll just, okay, I'll, I'll write it for a while. Here's, here's a hint.

• 43:55Nilay Patel?

  Just give me a verbal tweet.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Here's a hint.

• 43:57Nilay Patel?

  A verbal tweet?

• 43:59Speaker 02

  You can get a really, really, really good computer that like feels amazing and fast for around $500. If you buy one that runs Chrome OS. It will run native Android apps pretty soon and it runs Chrome, which runs really good web apps. If you buy one called an iPad, it doesn't have as many good education things as Chrome OS, but it has way better apps. It's not as good multitasking, but maybe they could fix that.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  If you want to buy a Windows PC in that zone, you're fucked. But not if they actually manage to successfully get Windows 10 Cloud to happen. And so, all of the action, all of the action in computers that aren't phones right now are, can we make an operating system that hits the sweet spot of lightweight, fast, and runs just enough apps? And is just powerful enough to do stuff to make you think of it as a full computer? And put it on hardware that runs on an ARM processor that costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $400 to $500?

• 45:06Nilay Patel?

  And the argument underneath it, the data point underneath it is depending on how you measure, the PC market grew, the PC market.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  The PC market grew because of Chromebooks. Yeah.

• 45:16Speaker 03

  So, here's the other thing I find interesting about this theory in relation to Microsoft.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  It's not a theory, it's fact, motherfucker.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, full fact, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm talking about it with Xbox.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Facts are kind of like theories.

• 45:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  They're just like terms of service that we all agree on.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  That's what reality is.

• 45:37Nilay Patel?

  As gentlemen, we agree not to prioritize one another's traffic.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  So, a problem with the Xbox when it came out, right? Was a double whammy. They were like, hey, it's a video game console.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  Oh, I thought you were referring to the dimensions of the size of the box. It was a double whammy by a triple whammy.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  It was a double by triple. Was, so they're like, oh, it's a game machine, but also we want you to be able to run apps at the exact same time. So essentially you're running two OSs.

• 46:06Nilay Patel?

  It was three.

• 46:07Speaker 03

  Oh, well.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  It's three. Yeah, they had the OS that controlled the other OSs.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  Yes. And the fourth thing of, we really love Kinect, oh, also Kinect still doesn't quite run on its own processing power.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  So like, it's bleeding, bleeding, bleeding. If, if what you're talking about is cloud-based.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Well, I think the cloud is like a head fake.

• 46:28Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 46:29Nilay Patel?

  It's Windows 10 for cloud services.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  What I'm saying is if it lightens the load, plus Project Scorpio is already more powerful, that... That frees up a lot for Xbox One.

• 46:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I mean, basically like Chrome OS works because web apps are good.

• 46:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 46:44Nilay Patel?

  For the most part.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  I see what you're saying.

• 46:45Nilay Patel?

  And so, Windows is gonna say, "You don't need all this processing power and all this like hefty Windows stuff on this, these thin clients, it's all in the cloud." And so, that's their, that's their move. Instead of talking about like Windows apps and Windows T and blah, blah, blah, blah, and going after the iPad, they're talking about cloud to go after Chrome.

• 47:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, my big thing is, I don't know if it's now, I don't know if it's the thing after Scorpio, but I don't think there's a world in which like Xbox doesn't become a computer.

• 47:14Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 47:14Speaker 03

  Like, that's just...

• 47:15Nilay Patel?

  That's what they've always wanted.

• 47:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think for a while, everybody thought it was going to just be a streaming puck, like an Apple TV that was heading to fantasy museums. I don't think that's true.

• 47:25Speaker 03

  You don't, you think?

• 47:26Nilay Patel?

  I mean, no, no, it's not that. It might have been true if the Apple TV was in any way a successful product.

• 47:32Speaker 03

  And that killed it?

• 47:33Nilay Patel?

  I, just like, yeah, I didn't, I just bought a new fancy LG OLED TV.

• 47:41Nilay Patel?

  It's just a stupid idea to put an Apple TV underneath it.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  Really?

• 47:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, A, it's not 4K.

• 47:47Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 47:47Nilay Patel?

  So that, automatically, it's like, you buy the Ferrari and then you're like, "What if I don't put any gas in it?"

• 47:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:53Nilay Patel?

  Right? Like, that's dumb. Its whole app ecosystem is so messy.

• 47:59Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:59Nilay Patel?

  Like, it's just messy. Like, I, there are apps on my Apple TV where I downloaded the first day and I just like looked at them the other day, they're just empty. Like, people just, like, the Mashable app, there's, like, they just forgot. Like, whoever was in charge of putting videos in the Mashable app was like, "What if I'm, no one's gonna notice this?" They just like stopped doing it. It's Sam Sheffer's job, I think.

• 48:18Speaker 03

  Ah.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  That's a double whammy.

• 48:23Nilay Patel?

  Sam got out of the penalty box at Mashable. No, like, it's just, all that stuff is just, it's empty, like, the whole TV app, the monolithic app, Microsoft has a way better chance of building a computer that they care about. That has actual games and thus actual people using its put new software on your TV box functionality.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:47Nilay Patel?

  That Apple came anywhere close to with the Apple TV.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  But doesn't Microsoft, in order to win, have to be successful enough up against the Playstation and the console market? And be successful enough up against Steam in like the I'm gonna download games off the internet on a computer department? In order for this thing to hit enough critical mass for their long-term strategy to work? Don't they have to like slay both dragons in order for this to work?

• 49:10Speaker 03

  I don't think that's necessarily true. I see what you mean.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  I think the bigger problem is they came up with a really good business model. Which is a thing they do often. The original Xbox One had some great ideas that were pitched terribly.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:30Speaker 03

  And...

• 49:31Speaker 02

  And not implemented so well either.

• 49:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, but the model that they have of like, hey, you're gonna buy something once. It'll work on anything you have. That could be a video game console, it could be a phone.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:42Speaker 03

  It could be a computer. That's a really exceptional promise, right? And it's really great for them because it locks you in to like all those things.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:51Speaker 03

  Hopefully.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:52Speaker 03

  The problem is you have to get started on it. Like you have to have a reason to get in. And if you don't, if you don't open that door, if there's not, this is where exclusive games come in. This is where Breath of the Wild comes in for the Switch, right?

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 03

  You have to have really compelling reasons just to get people's foot in the door. And to get them away from Playstation, where a lot of them already are.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  I mean, this is what would work for Nintendo if they would get around to, I know it's not fair to say get around to releasing games, but like, I'm just saying.

• 50:26Speaker 03

  They have two first-party games coming out in like the next two months.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 50:30Speaker 03

  Three. They have Mario Kart, Arms, and Splatoon.

• 50:34Nilay Patel?

  One game a month in the Nintendo Switch story.

• 50:37Speaker 03

  One game a month is pretty, I mean...

• 50:39Nilay Patel?

  No, I meant as a consumer.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:41Nilay Patel?

  It plays one game at a time, one game per month.

• 50:44Speaker 03

  Waka waka. I'm hard on Switch, but I'm, I'm, hmm, I'm bullish.

• 50:52Nilay Patel?

  You almost came around on that one. I'm hard on the Switch, but hmm. Alright, I'm gonna read the ad and then we should talk about Nintendo.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 51:03Nilay Patel?

  Are you hiring? Chris?

• 51:05Speaker 03

  No.

• 51:07Nilay Patel?

  Do you know how to post your job to find the best candidates? Posting your job in one place is not nearly enough to find quality candidates. If you want to find the perfect hire, you need to post your job on all the top job sites, and now you can. With ZipRecruiter.com, you can post your job to 200-plus job sites, including social media networks like Facebook and Twitter, all with a single click. Find candidates in any city or industry nationwide. Just post once and watch your qualified candidates roll in to ZipRecruiter's easy-to-use interface. There's no juggling emails or calls to your office. You just quickly screen the candidates, rate them, and hire the right person fast. Find out today why ZipRecruiter has been used by Fortune 100 companies and thousands of small and medium-sized businesses. And right now, Vergecast listeners can post jobs on ZipRecruiter for free by going to ziprecruiter.com/verge.

• 51:51Nilay Patel?

  That's ziprecruiter.com/verge. One more time, try it for free. Go to ziprecruiter.com/verge.

• 52:00Nilay Patel?

  So, Chris, we were talking about Nintendo.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. Finally. Do you want me to, like, give the whole rundown? Unlike Microsoft, they do everything right.

• 52:10Nilay Patel?

  Why can't... What is going on?

• 52:12Speaker 03

  I'm really holding myself back on this one.

• 52:16Speaker 03

  So Nintendo launched the Nintendo Switch. Yes. I'm giving you... This is called context. And when they did that, they were like... They brought out Reggie, who runs Nintendo America, like, built some competence, and he was like...

• 52:31Nilay Patel?

  He does everything. He literally builds all the machines himself, too.

• 52:33Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 52:34Nilay Patel?

  His bandwidth is extremely limited.

• 52:35Speaker 03

  Pretty incredible. But he was like, "Hey, remember the NES Classic that we released during the holidays and, like, nobody could buy one? We're not going to have that problem for the Nintendo Switch. They're going to be so money. If you want one, you'll be able to get one." That's not entirely true. But, like, the market around the Switch isn't so inflated, I would say, to be absurd. Right. Like, you can probably find one if you really looked for it, or you could pay a little bit more. Yeah. Meanwhile...

• 53:05Speaker 03

  You get the sense that there are a set number of factories Nintendo works with.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:10Speaker 03

  And they all went to the Switch.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:12Speaker 03

  And the NES Classic, which was hard to find before Christmas, it just has remained that way. I think it's gone on sale a few times, maybe, since then, like, things actually shipped. And then, today, Nintendo announced that they've decided to discontinue the NES Classic Edition, which is amazing, because they sell out the second they go on sale.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  And... Wait, wait, wait. They have a quote. I have to give this quote.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 53:41Speaker 03

  Because the quote is unbelievable. Here we go.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  Read it in Mario's voice.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  You have to read it in Mario's voice.

• 53:49Speaker 03

  I cannot, because I will get fired, because that's offensive. Also, did you know Mario is in his 20s?

• 53:55Speaker 02

  What?

• 53:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 53:57Speaker 03

  We won't go into that.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Hang on.

• 53:59Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  How does he grow that mustache?

• 54:01Speaker 03

  I gotta read the quote.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 54:02Speaker 03

  The company released the following statement to The Verge. "Throughout April, Nintendo of America Territories received the last shipments of Nintendo Entertainment System, NES Classic Edition systems for this year. We encourage anyone interested in obtaining this system to check with retail outlets regarding availability. We understand that this has been difficult for many consumers to find a system, and for that, we apologize. We have paid close attention to consumer feedback, and we greatly appreciate the incredible level of consumer interest and support for this product." We have paid close attention. You all want this product, and that's why we've decided to cancel it.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  They wanted it too much. It's also not hard to make. Yeah, I was just like, it's like, you don't need a Nintendo factory to make it. You just, like, call up anybody. It's like, can you put this one board in this one piece of plastic?

• 55:02Speaker 03

  It's so good. I mean, I think it's pretty obvious what is happening here. One of two things. One, there's another version, and it's gonna also come out this Christmas.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:13Speaker 03

  And they'll be like, actually, there are three options. One, new version comes out this Christmas. It has like 30 more games, NES Classic Special Edition, and they're gonna have a ton. And that's why they're stopping now because they're like-

• 55:25Speaker 02

  Super Nintendo Classic.

• 55:27Speaker 03

  Well, that's number two. Number two is like, we're just gonna move right on to the SNES. Which I don't know why you do that because like, people still want the NES, get your money, and then do the SNES next year. The third option, though, is, and this would be the most Nintendo option, would be that they're like, we just would rather people focus on the Nintendo Switch. We don't want market confusion.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:49Speaker 03

  We're just, it really is discontinued, and like, people need to start loving the Switch. Which I like, the more I think about it, the more it sounds like a real possible outcome. The, I mean, yeah, I think you're right. The easy one would be like, go get more money. But I could see how, in their Nintendo way, they would think, we can't have one of these out anywhere near the holidays because we need people going into the store-

• 56:20Speaker 02

  And buying the Switch.

• 56:21Speaker 03

  And buying the Nintendo Switch.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Speaking of very Nintendo things-

• 56:24Nilay Patel?

  But it's April.

• 56:26Speaker 03

  Well, you cancel it now because like, you need to put out this fire. Like, people keep, I'm sure people are messaging them constantly being like, how do I get this dang thing?

• 56:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's DMing Nintendo on Twitter.

• 56:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, or like, DMing me and like, video games, you know them. You must work there, right?

• 56:41Nilay Patel?

  Remember when everyone thought Engadget was a store?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Like, people still-

• 56:45Nilay Patel?

  It was on our About page. We are not a store.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  We get Facebook messages on Circuit Breaker all the time.

• 56:51Nilay Patel?

  You should sell them some shirts.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Hey, there you go.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  It's not what they're looking for. They're looking for this way to feed your pets.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  Speaking of very Nintendo things-

• 57:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  I've played a Switch. Battery life is not the best. But I was very excited to read the headline that they are releasing battery packs for the Switch. And I was like, yes! They're battery packs for the Joy-Con controllers.

• 57:14Speaker 03

  Okay, this rule-

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Which last 20 hours of pop, in theory. I'd never tested it.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  And how do you power these battery packs?

• 57:21Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  With AA batteries!

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Oh, that's right, yes.

• 57:24Speaker 03

  Yes! It's a game gear!

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Why?

• 57:29Speaker 03

  It's so good.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  On what world is the battery life on the controllers the bigger concern?

• 57:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know. Well, okay, no, no, no, no.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  Are they imagining that these things never get connected? And they like sit around like little like old like sideways NES controllers? And the console's like hidden in the cabinet, never gets used? And people just use them in like their little individual mode all the time? And that's the primary way they play games? That's what they think is happening?

• 57:52Speaker 03

  It's like, oh, you're just gonna leave it in house mode for the long, like the long term? And then you're just gonna have your like little controllers sitting around.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  So you can pick it up real quick.

• 58:05Speaker 03

  It works with them detached, right? Like, I think you have to have them detached.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:08Speaker 03

  So you just have two kind of like little baby controllers floating around.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  Cause they think that all we're gonna do is play arms.

• 58:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I guess.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  And snipper clips.

• 58:17Speaker 03

  It's not, listen, it's not a good idea. But is it an idea? Yes.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  It is an idea.

• 58:25Nilay Patel?

  There's not all accounts right now.

• 58:27Speaker 03

  Sometimes, yes. That's, I mean, it is, I like that Nintendo was like, we have made a piece of hardware that is maybe the best thing that could ever happen to accessory makers, including ourselves.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:44Speaker 03

  Like, you can remove the controllers, you could in theory put on custom controllers, you could sell millions of colors. And they were like, got it. So, one new color, and I've run out of ideas, I don't know, AAA battery chargers? And they're like, no, double A. And they're like, oh, thank goodness somebody cut me. Okay, let's put it out. I, I mean, they, I love Nintendo. I love that, I love that Nintendo Switch is selling so absurdly well. And it's like this huge hit in Japan. And that like, we're just gonna get more Nintendo forever. That like, they truly are the Rocky Balboa of video games. And they just get pulverized.

• 59:27Speaker 03

  And they come back and you're like, he's like 800, how is he still doing it? And then they're like, don't, don't worry about it. And then they make another stupid decision, and then it's just up and down, hills and valleys. They are the definition of drama.

• 59:41Nilay Patel?

  It's very hard to get a Switch. That's all I'm gonna say. They've been trying.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  You, you haven't got one yet?

• 59:46Nilay Patel?

  I just don't wanna do the Craigslist thing. I don't know why, it's like it's a thing for all kinds of other stuff.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:52Nilay Patel?

  But here I am.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  My buddy was like, I pre-ordered it at GameStop, like, like there was a backlog. They said it'd be a couple of weeks, but then it came a few days and it was fine.

• 1:00:00Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 1:00:01Nilay Patel?

  I'm just gonna get a switch. It's gonna be great. Alright, Paul?

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:00:04Nilay Patel?

  Every week?

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Always. And forever.

• 1:00:08Nilay Patel?

  He will never stop.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  I do a segment called, "Guess Who's Got A Birthday Coming Up."

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  So, I actually hadn't heard of this monitor, but Dell at CES 2016 announced a 4K 30-inch OLED monitor. Yeah, I remember this. And then they couldn't figure out how to build it.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  And at CES 2017, they said it was canceled. And now they just showed up on the internet. Yeah. And said, "We're shipping it in two weeks." The refresh rate is cut in half from the thing that you originally announced. Originally it was giving me 120 Hz. So, my thing is I don't really know who this is for. Apparently some video people like to work with OLED, but like, you know, typically OLED can be a little more saturated. So, it's not the most color accurate. And then gamers like high refresh rates. But latency on OLED is really, really nice. It's like .1 millisecond. Yeah. Compared to like a 1 millisecond or 5 millisecond on a typically like gaming monitor. It's $3,500.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:01:24Nilay Patel?

  Here's the thing, I just bought a 65-inch OLED 4K TV. It wasn't that expensive.

• 1:01:30Speaker 03

  Well, but here's the weird thing.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but are you happy?

• 1:01:33Nilay Patel?

  Super happy.

• 1:01:35Speaker 03

  Don't OLED 4K TVs have terrible response time for gaming?

• 1:01:38Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Nilay Patel?

  They're not great.

• 1:01:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Nilay Patel?

  They're not like super great.

• 1:01:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, good luck enjoying Madden.

• 1:01:43Nilay Patel?

  It has one HDMI port labeled "Game." We're just gonna see how that goes.

• 1:01:47Speaker 03

  It's interesting though.

• 1:01:48Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I'm not even claiming, by the way, that I have the reflexes necessary to tell the difference.

• 1:01:53Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:01:54Nilay Patel?

  Like, my strategy at Madden is like, I press X a lot.

• 1:01:59Speaker 03

  X.

• 1:02:00Nilay Patel?

  That's the whole game.

• 1:02:02Speaker 03

  Hey, strat.

• 1:02:05Nilay Patel?

  Well, circle makes you spin.

• 1:02:06Speaker 03

  Oh, X. So you're playing on Playstation?

• 1:02:08Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  I thought you were playing on Xbox and it's like, I don't think that's a button for us, but no, you're right. On Playstation, it would be an X.

• 1:02:13Nilay Patel?

  I think it's the B button.

• 1:02:14Speaker 03

  I didn't butt actually you. I just did it in my head.

• 1:02:17Nilay Patel?

  After all that Playstation boosting, you're still living in Xbox town.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  You don't own a Playstation, Eli.

• 1:02:24Nilay Patel?

  Huh?

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  You don't own a Playstation.

• 1:02:25Nilay Patel?

  All of my Madden moves are related to the PS2.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Uh...

• 1:02:29Nilay Patel?

  In my head, I'm still playing it on the PS2.

• 1:02:31Speaker 03

  This gets more and more complicated the further we go.

• 1:02:34Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Circle makes you spin. That's, that's the name of my forthcoming autobiography.

• 1:02:41Speaker 03

  Circle makes you spin.

• 1:02:43Nilay Patel?

  Anyway, Paul, this monitor.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Nilay Patel?

  Are you gonna get one?

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  No. But I will have a birthday eventually.

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  Wait.

• 1:02:53Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  I have a question. Do you have G-Sync on your monitor?

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  Are you an AMD person?

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:59Speaker 03

  You have a G?

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  I have a 1070 in my computer. And right now, I use a Vizio TV as my computer monitor.

• 1:03:07Speaker 03

  Interesting. It's not a bad choice.

• 1:03:09Nilay Patel?

  They've got the same.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  But it's only like, it maxes out 60 frames per second. So I really, really want like a high refresh rate.

• 1:03:15Speaker 03

  I...

• 1:03:16Nilay Patel?

  Paul was telling me the other day, he's found a number of blogs.

• 1:03:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Nilay Patel?

  Dedicated only to high refresh, high refresh rate monitors.

• 1:03:22Speaker 03

  I think like that should be 50% of the stuff we cover on the bridge deck.

• 1:03:24Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, so is Paul.

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  G-Sync and like...

• 1:03:26Nilay Patel?

  We should start doing it.

• 1:03:27Speaker 03

  20, 100, wait, 120 hertz?

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, 120 or 144, some of that. But here's the thing. If you are at a high refresh rate, you don't necessarily need G-Sync or FreeSync. What do you think about that?

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  I think I got both.

• 1:03:46Nilay Patel?

  I want a really short lightning round. I want to lead the lightning round. I never get to lead the lightning round. Lightning round, it's time.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Are you ready?

• 1:03:52Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Paul.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  Samsung is not shipping Bixby with the Galaxy S8 when it launches.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Wah wah.

• 1:04:00Nilay Patel?

  That's the sound the dog makes.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  Little legs in the air.

• 1:04:06Speaker 03

  What? How do dogs work for you?

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  They'll Bixby the dog.

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  Oh, there my, thank you, sorry.

• 1:04:14Nilay Patel?

  If you're just in your car listening, I just gave Chris the most disgusted look. How dare you not be following my dog with shoes joke?

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  I was picturing the dog from Duck Hunt with the way you're motioning and I was like...

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  Oh, right!

• 1:04:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:31Nilay Patel?

  Does the dog from Duck Hunt have a name? I bet it does.

• 1:04:34Speaker 03

  Dead. Shoot at it constantly.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  But you can't hit the dog.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:04:40Nilay Patel?

  Dog.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  In my version, you can.

• 1:04:42Nilay Patel?

  From Duck Hunt.

• 1:04:44Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:04:45Speaker 02

  Alright, Paul, Chris. Amazon is willing to sell its microphone array to other companies to stick them in their speakers. So that you can get the proper Echo microphones on other things, not like crappy microphones.

• 1:05:00Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  I thought it was the software.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  Is it the software?

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like the... I think you still have to source your own microphone parts. But it's like the... their algorithms for like noise cancellation.

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  Is that even a question for me?

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're supposed to react to that.

• 1:05:13Speaker 03

  It's lightning round. It's so complicated.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Just say "wah wah."

• 1:05:15Speaker 03

  Wah wah, big f... I'm a dog! Got it.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  Neelai!

• 1:05:21Nilay Patel?

  The dog from Duck Hunt may or may not be named Mr. Peepers.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  No!

• 1:05:27Speaker 03

  That would be like a fake Wikipedia entry.

• 1:05:29Nilay Patel?

  The Wikipedia entry says the dog is sometimes called Lapping Dog. But there's like a really old... There's a lot of not necessarily accurate game facts pages for being to know as Mr. Peepers.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 1:05:44Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  Flash lightning round is for you. Le... Echo is not buying Vizio. They called it off.

• 1:05:53Nilay Patel?

  Thank god. I'm super happy about that.

• 1:05:55Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 1:05:56Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I mean...

• 1:05:58Speaker 02

  Echo hasn't been able to do a single thing that wasn't a complete dumpster fire for the past six months, if not longer.

• 1:06:04Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  And...

• 1:06:05Nilay Patel?

  They held a number of bombastic events.

• 1:06:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:08Nilay Patel?

  They spent a bunch of money that they maybe didn't have.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  And they promised to build factories and then didn't, and then sort of did and then something. So if the sale had gone through, it would have destroyed Vizio.

• 1:06:17Nilay Patel?

  You know when you're a kid and you invent things?

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  Tell me more about this.

• 1:06:22Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's like, you know, like my niece and nephew are like, we're gonna invent a car that talks. And then like, they draw a picture of a car and like, where's all the work? And they're like, no, no, it just talks. That's like Ligo's entire product development department.

• 1:06:34Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:06:35Nilay Patel?

  Right? Like, their whole thing is like, we made a self-driving car, like, how does it work? I just don't get it. Just drives itself. It's like, I made a slingshot with a Pez dispenser in it. That requires some, like, engineering effort. This is like, Ligo's whole plan was like, we have great ideas. It required duct tape.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  They made, they made TVs, they made phones, and they made like, the Netflix of China, whatever, like.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  And cars.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  They're a very successful company that did a very good job, and then it showed up in America and forgot how to do everything.

• 1:07:05Nilay Patel?

  But the stuff it used to make was like commodity stuff. I mean, just their entire, I don't know. But I think the Vergecast listeners know, I'm always a fan of Vizio. Yeah. They do some good stuff. They're like, they move fast. Their TV doesn't work with YouTube TV yet. That's like a really interesting question. Really angry about that. Because Google is supposed to own that cast model. Well, the Google didn't do their job. Oh, Google, by the way, uh, supports 4K on the Chromecast Ultra. Yep. Doesn't support it in the Google Play Movies app on my 4K TV, which is some hot bullshit. Womp, womp. So I think they're trying to randomly push Chromecast sales. Hmm. Which is super annoying, because the thing costs like $45.

• 1:07:49Nilay Patel?

  Why are you trying to make $45 extra dollars, Google? Just sell me the movie. Anyway, what were you gonna say, Paul?

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Uh, I was just gonna say my Vizio TV crashes, and I use it as a computer.

• 1:08:00Nilay Patel?

  Do you have the SmartCast TV or the software?

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  SmartCast.

• 1:08:03Nilay Patel?

  Oh, and it crashes?

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:05Nilay Patel?

  That sucks.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  And I think it's exactly every 24 hours. If I leave it on for 24 hours.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  At the end of that 24 hour period, it's like, uh oh.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  If you like, watch for like, three hours a day after-

• 1:08:22Nilay Patel?

  It's fine.

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  After like, eight days, it crashes. There's like, a clock of how long it's allowed to stay on before a crash.

• 1:08:29Nilay Patel?

  Paul, I think the only option here is for you to set up an elaborate time lapse rig.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  I think I need a science, like, sure, I could watch less TV.

• 1:08:40Nilay Patel?

  No elaborate time lapse rig.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:42Nilay Patel?

  I have some ideas.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 1:08:44Nilay Patel?

  What's that thing called? The gorilla pod? Gorilla mount?

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Hmm?

• 1:08:48Nilay Patel?

  Gorilla cam?

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Are you talking about like, tripods?

• 1:08:50Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  That's your idea? That's your elaborate idea?

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Tripod.

• 1:08:55Speaker 02

  Buy a $10 tripod?

• 1:08:57Nilay Patel?

  It's been a long week, alright? You're trying to figure out this weird patent lawsuit, man?

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  That's fair, that's fair.

• 1:09:07Nilay Patel?

  Circles everywhere. Alright, that, for better or worse, has been our show. I think. Unless Chris has more stuff.

• 1:09:14Speaker 03

  Nope. That's it.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  Would you say people know now, everything they need to know about technology?

• 1:09:20Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:20Speaker 03

  And everything they wish they knew when they were younger?

• 1:09:23Nilay Patel?

  You have been updated upon it.

• 1:09:24Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:25Nilay Patel?

  That's a weird phrase.

• 1:09:26Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:09:27Nilay Patel?

  Cause it implies that-

• 1:09:29Speaker 03

  That you're on top of a tech?

• 1:09:31Nilay Patel?

  And then something bad happened to you.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:09:33Nilay Patel?

  I don't know.

• 1:09:34Speaker 03

  I don't follow it at all.

• 1:09:35Nilay Patel?

  Look, now you know everything you need to know.

• 1:09:36Speaker 03

  I'm gonna say that everybody should find out more about tech and read the story on their site right now. Nintendo doesn't want your money, it wants your soul.

• 1:09:45Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, make stat. Really fired up about this.

• 1:09:47Speaker 03

  It's a great headline.

• 1:09:48Nilay Patel?

  Anyway, that was the whole show. It struggled to a finish, but we got there in the end. Uh, we'll be back next week, there's other shows to listen to. Walt is retiring, as you may or may not know, Walt Mossberg is retiring. So he and I have, uh, six-ish episodes left in Control, Delete, we just did one. We went deep on internet policy, which was pretty fun, so listen to that. Lauren Good, host to Unbearers to Ask, which is super good, um, with an E. Think about it. Peter Kafka, host Recode Media, and Kara Swisher, host Recode Decode. They're all excellent. They're all on iTunes. Go find them, rate them, review them. You can tweet at us, particularly tweet at Chris about games-related issues.

• 1:10:26Speaker 03

  You're restraining yourself so much right now.

• 1:10:29Nilay Patel?

  And the controversy that he courts regarding them. He's at Plant. With an E.

• 1:10:35Speaker 03

  With an E. Interesting. French Canadian. I wonder what company might enjoy that.

• 1:10:41Nilay Patel?

  Paul is Mr. Peepers. Paul is at FuturePaul. Dieter's at Backlun. I'm at Reckless. Talk to us. We love it. Oh, there's some stuff on Verge extras that I need to mention. Lauren Grush and Ali Patenza, our science editor, interviewed Mark and Scott Kelly. Oh, what? Which is super cool. You should listen to that. It's actually really funny because Mark and Scott Kelly were like doing, they were, they were on a promo tour for the watch brand they wear, and they just forgot to talk about it. So at the end, they're like, hang on. This watch. Hilarious. Brian Bishop moderated a panel on a movie called The Tension Experience. It's out by Southwest. It's also on extras. We're doing some experiments. A Walt show is winding down. We want to make sure we have podcasts in the world. So you're going to see us do experiments, formats, segments. We'll run some on this show.

• 1:11:26Nilay Patel?

  Let us know what you like. We want to make sure we have a full, stable of stuff. So you'll see more of that stuff. Do let us know what you like and what you don't like. We'll turn whatever is good and popular into shows. So keep an eye for that stuff. And that's it. We will see you next week. Rock and roll. Paul. Paul. Mr. Peepers. Mr. Peepers.

• 1:11:43Speaker 03

  Bye.