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Today on The Vergecast, Nilay and Dieter are joined in studio by Lauren Goode to continue their discussion about the iPad Pro, as well as how it stacks up against the Surface Pro 4. In addition, the panel will discuss the end of Rdio, as well as the best set-top box on the market. Nicola Fumo once again occupies the hypeseat. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Nilay Patel?

  Hello and welcome to What For You is almost certainly November 20th. It could be the day after that, but it is almost certainly not November 19th, which is the day on which I am speaking. Today is a special day because we are streaming this motherfucker live on YouTube. And I don't know what that means for you, but for me, it means no one's going to complain to me about the previous streaming. Hey, Tom. The previous streaming service that we were using. But I'm here. This is The Verge Cast. I'm Yala Patel. I'm joined, as always, by Dieter Bohn.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 0:33Nilay Patel?

  Lauren Good is in from San Francisco. They can't. You have to. It's an audio show.

• 0:41Nilay Patel?

  You're like 400 feet away from the microphone and you're miming at a camera. This is the worst radio in history.

• 0:52Nilay Patel?

  Just let's get this closer to you. Hi. There you go. Come on.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Uh, there's like a, there's like a two-minute delay, which is not bad. Maybe it's a little bit less.

• 1:02Nilay Patel?

  Well, in about two minutes, Lauren's gonna suck at being on the radio.

• 1:08Nilay Patel?

  And Nicola is here. Nicola, the style editor of rack.com.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  I am here.

• 1:12Nilay Patel?

  What up? Nicola, I have to say, there's a few things I want to say to you, Nicola. One, I think it's the first time in history that we've actually had like the same cast.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  I know. Yeah.

• 1:21Nilay Patel?

  I'm feeling good about that. I feel like this is a core group that I'm into. Nicola, I have two things that I'm wondering about.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  Let's hear them.

• 1:29Nilay Patel?

  One, you are surrounded by screens right now.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  I have so many screens.

• 1:34Nilay Patel?

  So Nicola's got her Air. She's got the iPad Pro. She's got a Surface Pro 4. And she's got her 6 Plus.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  And the pencil.

• 1:42Nilay Patel?

  And the pencil.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  And the proper noun, pencil.

• 1:45Nilay Patel?

  How are you feeling? Are you feeling overwhelmed? Are you feeling in the mix?

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Um, I feel more part of The Verge than ever. I have this like joke about my transformation, like.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  The more time I spend with you people and the more I start like you people thinking about these things, like someone sent me a baby picture and I immediately thought, that's an interesting aspect ratio. I wonder what phone it was taken with. And I was like, oh no!

• 2:11Nilay Patel?

  It's happening. It happens so fast.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  Does that mean that the reverse is going to happen? We're suddenly going to be more stylish and like better dressed?

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just gonna be like a slow, like just a, it was gonna just take over you slowly.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. How do these multiple screens factor into Project Figurehead?

• 2:27Nilay Patel?

  Come on.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Oh, I think being surrounded by-

• 2:30Nilay Patel?

  We're in this together, Warren. You and this microphone. They're gonna, there you go.

• 2:33Speaker 03

  Friends.

• 2:38Speaker 03

  Hi, friend.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  All the studio dudes behind you are just glaring, like glaring at this happening and it's so funny.

• 2:51Nilay Patel?

  Not going well, guys.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  They also have mystery gadgets. Tom has like an orb. He's like carrying an orb.

• 2:56Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  I want him to, it's very strange.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  I think it's a 360 camera.

• 3:00Nilay Patel?

  Oh yeah, they're doing a bunch of 360 camera stuff.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Oh, all right.

• 3:03Nilay Patel?

  Cause the big plan is at CES, do all kinds of VR stuff at CES.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 3:06Nilay Patel?

  We'll see. We have to like make it work. So Nekla, the other thing I want to ask you about. And for the live listener, you may have noticed that previous this, we're all tweeting each other about gift guides. What's going on with the racked tech?

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Listen dude, under a hundred-

• 3:22Nilay Patel?

  Like turned around upstairs and was like, wooden speakers?

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Under a hundred's hard, okay?

• 3:27Nilay Patel?

  You selected just the band of an Apple Watch. Do you know how rough that is? To just give somebody a band?

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Also, that wasn't my select. It's a team effort. It's a team effort.

• 3:39Nilay Patel?

  Don't throw him under the bus, girl. Come on.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  I didn't even click this link.

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Look, the customize section, the customize section is tight. I did that.

• 3:48Nilay Patel?

  There's some stuff in there that's good, but the, the one, the lone, like rose gold sport band for the Apple Watch.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Listen, man.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  With a little, with a drawn little-

• 3:56Nilay Patel?

  Well, cause I understand that. That is understanding, cause you can't show people the watch, right?

• 4:01Speaker 02

  I thought that was a pretty cute detail. I didn't style that. I thought it was cute.

• 4:03Nilay Patel?

  Wait, so this is a thing, like Rackt editors often style photo shoots, right? This is like a thing that happens?

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Well, because we're good at that stuff.

• 4:09Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:10Nilay Patel?

  It's wild.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's really funny. Actually, when I was talking to our, um, team about the Verge gift guide and the Rack gift guide, like the product team, they were like, uh, people kept being like, oh, who shot yours? Who styled yours? Who's your prop stylist? I was like, oh, we did it? And we asked people who work here to use cameras to take pictures because we know what we want.

• 4:30Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, because fashion stuff.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:32Nilay Patel?

  All right. Well, I just wanted to give you some shit about that. There was, I just got a brutal eye roll from Nicola. Like, literally, your head went backwards with the force of your eye roll.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Man, we're all making sacrifices and working in groups.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Whoa. Something just happened?

• 4:48Speaker 03

  It just appeared. Something just appeared on the table.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  There's a...

• 4:51Nilay Patel?

  We're being streamlined.

• 4:52Speaker 03

  I'm pretty sure that was from the Rack gift guide.

• 4:53Nilay Patel?

  That thing is pretty cool. What is that thing?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  It's an orb.

• 4:56Nilay Patel?

  All right.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  It's a dark thing.

• 4:59Nilay Patel?

  Well, there's this theory about what VR, what, what are, what is the Verge going to do with...

• 5:02Speaker 01

  It's a 360 camera.

• 5:03Nilay Patel?

  Right. What is the Verge going to do with VR stuff? And one of the, one of the ideas has been through the Verge asking VR. So we'll see if this goes off.

• 5:12Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 5:13Nilay Patel?

  We'll see.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:13Nilay Patel?

  We'll see. All right. So I have a question for, pretty much for Lauren.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Here we go.

• 5:19Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 5:19Nilay Patel?

  What is the Nvidia Shield? What is it? Is it a, it seems like a product I should know about, but in, I, I've been involved...

• 5:28Speaker 03

  You should probably check our YouTube comments to figure out what the Nvidia Shield is.

• 5:31Nilay Patel?

  A massive conspiracy to avoid this low-selling product.

• 5:37Speaker 03

  Well, the Nvidia Shield 4K. Is that Nvidia? Nvidia? Nvidia?

• 5:50Nilay Patel?

  We're just off to a stumbling beginning here. Nvidia.

• 5:54Speaker 03

  That's Nvidia.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's Nvidia, but I, I like Nvidia way better.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  You just said Nvidia. You're saying Nvidia, he's saying Nvidia.

• 6:01Nilay Patel?

  But Nvidia sounds more like a lotion company.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 03

  Also on the Rackt holiday gift guide.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Untrue.

• 6:08Nilay Patel?

  It would be, except it's $103, so...

• 6:12Speaker 03

  But it's a, I'm not even...

• 6:14Nilay Patel?

  Well, so the reason I bring this up is Lauren, Lauren has been like a publishing monster on theverge.com this week.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Look out, Nilay.

• 6:21Nilay Patel?

  Uh, I publish nothing.

• 6:24Nilay Patel?

  What do you mean? My job is to come down and tell mediocre jokes on this show. Hooray. But no, you've been all over the place. You published the best set top box. This is my next.

• 6:32Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 6:33Nilay Patel?

  You did some hardcore reporting.

• 6:36Speaker 03

  We did our gift guide.

• 6:37Nilay Patel?

  You did your, our gift guide. Full of expensive technology items, including actual smartwatches and not just the bands.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  So rude.

• 6:48Nilay Patel?

  Do we, I don't even know if we have smartwatches on there.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  We do.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, we do.

• 6:51Nilay Patel?

  Okay, good.

• 6:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:53Nilay Patel?

  I might buy a Pebble time around.

• 6:55Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 6:55Nilay Patel?

  I've been thinking about it.

• 6:56Speaker 03

  I looked at that one yesterday on your gift guide, actually.

• 6:58Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, right?

• 6:59Speaker 03

  Doing some competitive research.

• 7:00Nilay Patel?

  I looked at the piece of paper.

• 7:04Nilay Patel?

  So mean, okay. So that our gift guide, you did a thing about the iPad Pro, which we should get into. That's one of the other reasons. But the best set top box. I don't think people know this about, or this is my next, is you actually reviewed the Nvidia Shield to give it a score. Like you got it and set it up and like played with it and did all the stuff. You just didn't write the whole thing.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  Everything that we consider for that is something that we have used or reviewed or like we were giving it very careful consideration. It's, so even though we had not yet reviewed the Nvidia 4K Shield when it came, it came out earlier this year, sometime in the spring. So we didn't review that new one. We had reviewed the previous version of the box.

• 7:43Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  But I did use it. I mean, I had it, I have it at home still and it's set up at home and I've been using it and everything. But the thing is like, so initially, there are a couple of things to think about when you think about the Shield. And a lot, it's like all of a sudden this, there's this like rabid fan group for the Shield. Like if you look at our YouTube comments, they're like, they're like, we love the, we think this is the best. And they like can't believe that we would consider Apple TV better than it. But it is like two parts gaming console and one part set top box. So initially, the, this is my next set top box is about streaming your, your video streaming apps and maybe some casual games, maybe some other types of apps. Right? So that's the first part. So it's like primarily a gaming thing. And the second part too is that at this point in the game, we're not giving a ton of weight to 4K. So Roku also supports 4K at 60 frames per second.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  Amazon Fire TV second generation supports 4K at 30 frames per second. Right, a lot of these support like different codecs and are sort of like future-proofing in different ways, but there are a lot of people right now that don't have 4K TVs and there isn't a lot of 4K content out there. So for us, like, we weren't giving as much weight to the 4K aspect of the Shield. And I think that's something like, maybe some people would argue like, well, it has 4K and Apple TV does not.

• 8:50Nilay Patel?

  But it's basically just Android TV, right?

• 8:52Speaker 03

  It's based on Android TV.

• 8:54Nilay Patel?

  It doesn't have any functionality aside from the gaming, like...

• 8:58Speaker 03

  Oh, no, you can stream. I mean, like, you know, Android TV does support a lot of the traditional video streaming apps. So you can get a selection of video streaming apps, but this is primarily for somebody who's looking for gaming.

• 9:10Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 9:10Speaker 03

  Like, it's like, oh, I have this like $200. It even, and it's really funny, too, because until like last week, when you bought the Shield, it only came with a gaming remote, just, just like, you know, the Xbox One or the Sony PS4. And then you had to, if you wanted a more traditional Bluetooth remote to use, you had to buy that separately. And it was like $50 extra. And then last week, the company just said they were gonna start bundling that in. But like, if that is not enough of an indication that this thing is more about, it's a little bit more about gaming than video streaming, then that's, you know, that's what it's about. We also considered the traditional gaming consoles. We, you know, considered Microsoft Xbox One and we considered Sony PS4 and said, if you happen to already have these and have spent $349 or more on these, you might not need an extra set top box because,

• 9:55Speaker 03

  but, but that's like, not what we were really looking at.

• 9:57Nilay Patel?

  There is no part of me that wishes to boot up my Xbox One instead of using my Apple TV.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  The new Xbox One interface, everybody loves it. I don't.

• 10:05Nilay Patel?

  I haven't even, I haven't really gotten a chance to play with it. But the Xbox One is to like, play video games. That's what I have it for.

• 10:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:13Nilay Patel?

  I mean, and I think that's why Microsoft blew it, right? Like, that's why the PS4, the PS4 is like, for video games. Microsoft was like, a PC!

• 10:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 10:21Nilay Patel?

  Have it!

• 10:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:22Nilay Patel?

  I don't know. Have you played with it? You haven't played with it a lot?

• 10:25Speaker 01

  The Nvidia Shield?

• 10:26Nilay Patel?

  No, the Windows 10, the new dashboard.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  On, on the Xbox? I mean, I use it. I've played with it. I've poked around on it. I just, I don't, part of me, I'm old, I hate change.

• 10:37Speaker 03

  Well, one thing that happens, too, is like, it doesn't, when you have apps in the tile interface that you're using, you've downloaded and you use, they move.

• 10:42Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 10:43Speaker 03

  So like, what if we, you last watched Netflix on it, which is the last thing I've watched on the Xbox One, like, it's, it's there, it's prioritized, which, oh, sorry, hi friend. It's prioritized. It's like there and, you know, right in front of you, but it's not in the place where you thought it would be. Like, you, like, I don't know.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'll get used to it, but it, um... I don't know. It it still thinks that it does more than what I actually want it to do, which is like, I want to turn it on. I want to see a grid of apps. As much as I complain about Apple TV's interface, like, it does the job.

• 11:15Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:17Nilay Patel?

  You still second strong through Roku three or whatever Roku two?

• 11:20Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm not going to buy a new thing. I have a thing.

• 11:22Nilay Patel?

  Right. This is a real problem. It's truly the problem with these things.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  Do you care about 4K?

• 11:27Speaker 02

  I don't know what that means in this context.

• 11:29Nilay Patel?

  Really?

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:30Nilay Patel?

  We haven't, we haven't gone deep down that rabbit hole with you?

• 11:32Speaker 02

  No idea what that means.

• 11:33Nilay Patel?

  4K is the next.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  I had to ask today what a setup box.

• 11:36Nilay Patel?

  Set top.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Set top.

• 11:38Nilay Patel?

  Which is a bad name. Admittedly, that is a terrible name.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  What else you call it?

• 11:41Speaker 03

  They're actually called OTT technically.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't even know what this is.

• 11:45Nilay Patel?

  Because you can't put it on top. It's actually a miserable name.

• 11:47Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:48Nilay Patel?

  Um, but OTT box way worse.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Over the top.

• 11:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, over the top.

• 11:52Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 11:53Nilay Patel?

  They're all, they're all, there's a.

• 11:54Speaker 03

  But over the top has more to do with the delivery mechanism of the content or a set top, right? Is like, you've set it on top.

• 12:01Nilay Patel?

  I don't know. You can't put anything on top of a modern TV.

• 12:03Speaker 03

  Cable boxes are also set top, aren't they?

• 12:06Nilay Patel?

  But they're not on top of any sets.

• 12:10Nilay Patel?

  This whole, this whole situation is like a mess.

• 12:13Speaker 03

  We need a new industry standard.

• 12:15Nilay Patel?

  If you were like, if you're like, I'm going to make something that balances on top of my flat panel TV.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  What if we just called it a, what if we just called it a TV box?

• 12:22Speaker 03

  What if going forward, we just, we just.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Why don't you just call it new TV?

• 12:25Nilay Patel?

  But it's not a TV.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  You need a, you need a name for the physical object.

• 12:28Nilay Patel?

  The box.

• 12:29Speaker 03

  We should call it the verge box going forward. There, it's the Apple verge box. It's the Roku verge box. It's, everything's on the verge.

• 12:35Nilay Patel?

  Last year at CES, um, Jim Mag off the CEO of Vox Media came into our, we have a trailer. And he's like, what do you've seen this kind of like, man, let's TV stuff swing up. Actually, what we should do, Jim, is like, we should go out into the hall and find a Chinese company that's making a set top box and like have them OEM a Vox box, just plays our videos.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Vox box.

• 12:54Nilay Patel?

  And he, he was like, he looked at me with such a withering stare and he was like, no.

• 13:01Nilay Patel?

  That was the end of the conversation. She was like, no, no, we're not doing that. And I was like, but, but she's just like walked away. Box box. What if we had our own OTT set top box?

• 13:13Speaker 03

  What if people thought it was Fox box? That would be very, a very different thing.

• 13:19Nilay Patel?

  It would be a tremendously different thing.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Is there a word that rhymes with media?

• 13:25Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Cause it would technically be a mock, a Vox, a Vox Media Vox.

• 13:32Nilay Patel?

  Well, it's been good having you, Lauren.

• 13:37Nilay Patel?

  It's been great, great radio with Lauren Good.

• 13:45Speaker 03

  Reader softly, Ryan.

• 13:47Nilay Patel?

  I can't.

• 13:49Nilay Patel?

  I mean, it is, whatever.

• 13:53Nilay Patel?

  4K is the next resolution standard for television.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Wow. I hate it. I hate how crisp TVs are.

• 14:00Nilay Patel?

  Yeah?

• 14:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:01Nilay Patel?

  Why?

• 14:01Speaker 02

  They're gross to look at. You look at them and you see people in better clarity than you see them with your own eyes. And I think it's weird and wrong.

• 14:08Nilay Patel?

  Do you, when was the last time you got your eyes checked?

• 14:12Speaker 02

  No, dude.

• 14:14Nilay Patel?

  Fair question.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  No, like, you know how sports looks?

• 14:18Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  And now regular other TV shows look like that?

• 14:21Nilay Patel?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  On certain TVs. I hate that.

• 14:24Nilay Patel?

  Oh, you hate the motion smoothing?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  It's gross. You can see people's pores.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  It's just the HD.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  It's almost like that illusion of depth, even though it's not gritty.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  It's higher definition than my actual eyes would see the same thing.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  It's the soap opera effect. Everybody like.

• 14:34Nilay Patel?

  That's motion smoothing. The soap opera effect is motion smoothing.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  I was gonna say soap opera is more like diffusing. Everything looks kind of soft.

• 14:40Nilay Patel?

  No, no, no, no. So the motion smoothing is the one where they, they, they like 240 hertz television.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Everything looks so clear and real. You can see the set and that it is a set and then you see that the thing is cheap.

• 14:53Nilay Patel?

  We're describing the same thing.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  But it's not motion smoothing. It's just because it's an HD.

• 14:58Nilay Patel?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:00Nilay Patel?

  No.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:01Nilay Patel?

  No.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:02Nilay Patel?

  Absolutely not.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 15:03Nilay Patel?

  Absolutely not.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Whatever you say.

• 15:07Nilay Patel?

  Come on, guys. So there's HD and traditional HD runs at like 1080i 30, right? 30 frames per second. And then the refresh rates of modern televisions are cranked way higher than that. They're at 120 or 240. And they, they do the motion smoothing and interpolate frames to get to 240 and it looks like a fucking soap opera. That's motion smoothing.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 15:31Nilay Patel?

  So sports has, a lot of sports networks run it at 60 to catch more action. And so sports is crisper and clearer. And then if you have a TV that's doing that same effect.

• 15:45Nilay Patel?

  You take, right, you take like Breaking Bad and you run it on the TV that does motion smoothing and it will look like VHS. It'll look like video instead of the 24 frames per second in which it was shot. We're all describing the same thing.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 15:58Nilay Patel?

  Which is called motion smoothing and it looks like garbage and I literally turn it off on every single TV that I find because I hate it.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  You just like walk up and go to Best Buy every day and just click through all of them?

• 16:07Nilay Patel?

  And I was at, it's actually super funny. I was at Joanna Stern's parents' house like two years ago and I like saw it on their TV and I like turned it off. And like literally Joanna's dad is like, her TV's never been the same since I put a towel boy with.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  That's like the legacy you could hope for, right?

• 16:28Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 16:29Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, Joanna's dad knows I broke his TV.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  Like, well, I don't know what you're still doing. That seems like it.

• 16:36Nilay Patel?

  But anyway, but so that's the, that Christmas that you're talking about has nothing to do with the resolution.

• 16:40Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 16:40Nilay Patel?

  That's like, that's literally TVs like just making up information to make it look smoother.

• 16:45Speaker 03

  Processing things.

• 16:46Nilay Patel?

  But like, the 4K is literally you take the image size of an HD screen and it's four, it's four of them in a grid and it's.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  It's actually not a multiple, an exact multiple of four.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  It's below, but it's called, it's like called that because it's just easier to say that than actually spout out like the 38, 20.

• 17:03Nilay Patel?

  But it's basically like, it's more pixels.

• 17:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  So what's the benefit then? Things look crisper? Yeah.

• 17:11Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  We also don't really experience the full benefit of it unless you're sitting a certain distance from the display.

• 17:16Nilay Patel?

  But let's say, let's say you were at home.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  All right.

• 17:19Nilay Patel?

  Go ahead. I was.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  I was gonna get into contrast.

• 17:21Nilay Patel?

  Oh, I was gonna say, let's say you were at home just ripping on your vape and you're like, you know what I really wanna watch right now? It's like.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Empire.

• 17:27Nilay Patel?

  No, not Empire. Like, uh, like a beautiful forest scene or like a slow motion shot of a cityscape.

• 17:33Speaker 03

  A polar bear in snow.

• 17:34Nilay Patel?

  I don't know, but that's the only thing they show on 4K TV.

• 17:37Speaker 03

  The grass blowing.

• 17:38Nilay Patel?

  Those are the only demos of 4K TVs.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Amazon stuff is being shot in 4K now.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Serious?

• 17:43Nilay Patel?

  And breaking a bunch of Netflix shit.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  That's true. That is true.

• 17:45Nilay Patel?

  But like, that's basically the content. The content is like a few Amazon shows, a few Netflix shows, and then looping pictures of the rainforest. That's, and that's why we don't take 4K seriously when we do the set-top box series. Cause it's not there yet.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  And who needs that stuff?

• 18:01Nilay Patel?

  Huh?

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Who needs looping?

• 18:03Speaker 03

  Nerds like us.

• 18:04Nilay Patel?

  Dude, people are taking huge rips off their backs.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  I just wanna watch Empire. I just wanna watch Empire.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Should I start watching Empire?

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh my god, yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Actually, I have a problem because, no, I'm not gonna go into it. Later, we'll get to it in a few weeks. About Empire.

• 18:24Nilay Patel?

  Dieter's trying to walk back his motion smoothing thing on Twitter.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  No, I'm not.

• 18:27Nilay Patel?

  Walk, I was trolling him.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  I was trolling you.

• 18:29Nilay Patel?

  Boo, whatever. Boo to you, sir. Alright, so we did the set-top box thing. I just wanna, I just wanna make fun of the individual people. I wanna talk about audio, like a lot.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  R.I.P.

• 18:39Nilay Patel?

  I wanna talk about audio.

• 18:39Speaker 03

  Pour one out.

• 18:40Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I gotta do the iPad, but first, money sound.

• 18:45Nilay Patel?

  In the, in the actual show, there's a money, whatever.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  I know.

• 18:52Nilay Patel?

  Building a website can be tough.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Especially in 4K.

• 18:55Nilay Patel?

  Especially in 4K, even if you know you're wearing coding. What about refresh rates? Creating something that looks good and works well is time to be fair. Whether it's for your business site, your portfolio, or restaurant, or whatever else. In this day and age, you probably need a website. So, lucky for us, Squarespace makes it easy to build beautiful websites without breaking a sweat. Squarespace provides simple, powerful, and beautiful websites that look professionally designed regardless of your skill level. There's no coding required. Not only does Squarespace provide you with intuitive and easy-to-use tools to create your website, Squarespace also has state-of-the-art technology powering your site to ensure security and stability. And you know you can trust in Squarespace for your website needs when millions of people and some of the most respected brands in the world trust in them too. Seriously, you can't beat the ease and simplicity of Squarespace.

• 19:39Nilay Patel?

  It gives you 24/7 online support and a beautiful website. So, what are you waiting for? Crazy?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  I don't know. Uh, uh, my, my Squarespace website is gonna be, uh, AaronRogersNeedsHelp.com.

• 19:51Nilay Patel?

  Do you have a wedding website yet?

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:53Nilay Patel?

  Is that on Squarespace?

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:55Nilay Patel?

  Are you lying?

• 19:56Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 19:57Nilay Patel?

  Anyway, look, sign up for Squarespace today. Use the offer code VERGE, V-E-R-G-E, to get 10% off your first purchase. And share your support for our show, this show, The Vergecast. Thank you so much, Squarespace, for your support. Squarespace, build it beautiful.

• 20:13Nilay Patel?

  Got through it, guys.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Someone tweeted, "I don't like Reckless being rude to Nicola Fumo."

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Well, it's true.

• 20:19Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  I don't like it either.

• 20:23Speaker 03

  The people have spoken.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 03

  Someone just tweeted at me, "Everyone drinking beer at work, frown face." Why is that frown face? That has to be celebrated and enjoyed.

• 20:34Nilay Patel?

  That's why we have this career. It's a long tradition in the media industry.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:39Nilay Patel?

  Drinking beer in the afternoon.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  This is all part of figureheading.

• 20:44Nilay Patel?

  You were on the mic when you said that.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  I know.

• 20:46Nilay Patel?

  All right.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  All right.

• 20:48Nilay Patel?

  All right, can we talk about Ardio?

• 20:51Nilay Patel?

  Go through it. How many news?

• 20:53Speaker 01

  The news is that they are, they buried the news a little bit, but they are filing for bankruptcy and they're selling off the parts and a bunch of their employees to Pandora for 75 million, I think is the number, which is like less than they had actually taken in to fund themselves. And it's really sad. That's, that's basically the whole story. Like a bunch of like, a bunch of people in my circle, me, we all loved Ardio like five years ago.

• 21:23Nilay Patel?

  Did you not use Ardio?

• 21:24Speaker 03

  No.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Ardio was the best. It came to the US well before Spotify.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, I reviewed Ardio in its early stages for the Wall Street Journal when it was on BlackBerry.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  It did a better job, yeah.

• 21:37Speaker 03

  I actually have a picture of me holding up my BlackBerry with Ardio.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  So, the funny thing is, I was, back then, I was a slacker, bro, not an Ardio guy. And then I switched from slacker to Ardio.

• 21:50Nilay Patel?

  iTunes forever.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, so, but it was, it was really good because it had really nice design. It had like, at the time, and I think even still, like a better sense of like what your friends were listening to than anything else. And like, I just found more music on it and enjoyed using it more than any other service. But for many, many reasons, all of which Casey detailed in his lovely article, they just like couldn't hack it. They didn't know how to market themselves.

• 22:15Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  They just, like, all of their thunder... Went up in a puff of smoke as soon as Spotify started to hint that they might come to the US. Even when they were a full streaming service in the US, everybody was like, yeah, but Spotify is coming. It's like, who cares?

• 22:30Nilay Patel?

  Spotify had the ads for the free.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  And Spotify had free.

• 22:33Nilay Patel?

  Right. So you could like, listen to some ads and then it was like,

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 22:36Nilay Patel?

  iTunes but free, which is a killer line for Spotify. But Ardio was such a better product. I think that's the thing that's really sad. It's like, Spot, I mean, everybody knows what I feel about Spotify in this show. Like Spotify, I use it. I think it's better than every other one, except for Ardio.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Or Google Play Music. Just kidding.

• 22:54Speaker 03

  That's a little other discussion.

• 22:56Nilay Patel?

  Is it? Don't we know the answer?

• 22:58Speaker 01

  You know, you could listen to Google Play Music on the Nvidia Shield?

• 23:01Nilay Patel?

  This is worked on.

• 23:03Speaker 03

  4K.

• 23:03Nilay Patel?

  I don't have any.

• 23:04Speaker 03

  In 4K.

• 23:05Nilay Patel?

  In 4K. I, no, like YouTube Music, great product.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:09Nilay Patel?

  Like a really cool product, like really interesting and like clever and like understands like the, the media streaming, you might want to download it. You can click it into the audio only, like clever product. Google Play Music, the app, less clever.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:25Nilay Patel?

  Right? Spotify marginally cleverer. And then Ardio is like a brilliant piece of design. But Ardio was just like a wasteland. And like, it's all because Spotify was like, what if we raise a bunch of money and just relentlessly burn it for customer acquisition?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 03

  Does Ardio have all of the same deals in place with the labels that all the other services do?

• 23:45Nilay Patel?

  They don't get the exclusives like Spotify does.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was close. Um, I, when I, I mean, I bounced around between both of them for a while, uh, before I finally walked away from Ardio because it was so clear that it wasn't going to be able to keep up.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  I mean, it seems like even the, you know, the cachet, the cachet wasn't there either. You never heard Taylor Swift saying like, I'm pulling my stuff from Spotify and Ardio.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:06Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 24:06Speaker 03

  You know, or Adele or whoever it might be.

• 24:08Nilay Patel?

  No, Spotify is like the big bad, right? It's the villain. What, what, what's funny to me though is like the backend. The backend of all these services is just a bunch of deals and like, I don't know, music streams. Like, shouldn't the products, the apps be kind of interchangeable?

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:24Nilay Patel?

  Like, shouldn't Spotify let you build a front-end app to Spotify that's way better than like? I don't, that's the thing that I don't get, like, whenever I use my Alexa or my Echo and I'm like, Alexa, play some music. It doesn't matter to me what service the music is coming from. I just like, I just want to hear the song. And it's on a phone, it's like, everything about this experience is like layered into like, I'm opening the Spotify app and using their interface and it matters what deal they got and what Discover Weekly's out. And it's like, why? Like, why can't I disintermediate the fact that I'm subscribing to music from the app that I'm using?

• 24:57Speaker 01

  I mean, would you subscribe to the core service that provides it and then you'd also subscribe or pay for the app that you use to use it?

• 25:06Nilay Patel?

  I would do that. I would subscribe. I would pay for the Spotify library and then like pay 10 bucks to use the audio app, like as, I would buy an app.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Like a third-party app that acts as a skin to the library that presents it in a way you find pleasing.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, name, name a single other industry that has a similar business model.

• 25:23Nilay Patel?

  The internet.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  Well, in some ways, I don't know.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  What like other like media thing like?

• 25:28Speaker 03

  The set-top box, I don't mean, not to bring it all back to set-top boxes, but in a way, they're all starting to get there. A lot of them have the same, they offer the same apps or channels, whatever they decide to call them, right? They have HBO Now and HBO Go and they have, I mean, they, sometimes they're prioritizing their own services like Amazon does with Prime Video.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:46Speaker 03

  But like, if once you get to the point where all these companies are saying, we have 3,000 apps, then really it comes down to how they're presenting them and how accessible they make them to users.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  It's different. They're different businesses.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. But like, I'm just paying to license the music in the end.

• 26:01Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Like, why does it matter? Like, let me use whatever good app I want to use. I don't know.

• 26:07Nilay Patel?

  I've, I've, I like, that's like. That's like a beautiful dream, but I like, I do not, how do we get there from here?

• 26:12Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 26:13Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Like, we watch audio die. I mean, it's just like Spotify to me is like just on this course to be the winner.

• 26:21Nilay Patel?

  Like, I don't know, anybody uses Apple Music. Do you, does anybody?

• 26:23Speaker 03

  I unsubscribed.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, no.

• 26:25Nilay Patel?

  You unsubscribed?

• 26:25Speaker 03

  I did.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  I find, and it's weird to me, but yeah, a lot of my friends use it. Like,

• 26:30Nilay Patel?

  Really?

• 26:31Speaker 02

  My friends, I'm trying to think of like, how to explain this, like, certain sect. It's like, my friends who, who like, maybe like, are graphic designers, or like, they're like, sort of in touch with these, with, you know what I mean?

• 26:45Nilay Patel?

  What you guys are not seeing is that Nicola is making hand motions, that it's very much like she's,

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Always making hand motions.

• 26:49Nilay Patel?

  She's like playing a harp.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm Italian, I have to talk with my hands, I hate this podcast bullshit.

• 26:55Nilay Patel?

  No, it's like you're, she's conjuring a graphic designer, like, out of a candle.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  No, I'm trying to like, I'm trying to feel it, I'm trying to feel what I'm trying to describe.

• 27:03Speaker 03

  I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that because you know lots of designers and people like, they're using Apple products?

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, my friends who are, my friends who know to update their phone and are excited about it, but don't work in like, tech proper, they all use Apple Music, and that's weird to me. But like, my friends who are just like, whatever, like, existing in the world, like a regular, totally regular, not, like, don't care person, like, they use Spotify.

• 27:33Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 27:33Speaker 03

  That's interesting.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they're always, and they always are just like, it's just, Apple Music's so much better to look at.

• 27:39Nilay Patel?

  Really?

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, but clicking it is hard and horrible.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  It is.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  You can't get to anywhere. Yeah, that's what they all say.

• 27:46Nilay Patel?

  That's weird. It's super weird. They should have used Audio. These are the people Audio was after. Like, every designer I knew was into Audio. Cause it was like a beautiful app.

• 27:56Speaker 03

  So what happens now that Audio's assets are at Pandora? Like, what is Pandora gonna do with these?

• 28:00Speaker 01

  They're gonna launch, they're finally going to do the thing they swore they never needed to do because they were too cool because they were radio, they weren't a music streaming service.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  Ad-supported radio.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  And they are now going to, a year from now, launch an on-demand music streaming service, using the stuff they got from Audio and the people they hired.

• 28:17Nilay Patel?

  Maybe they'll be good.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 28:20Nilay Patel?

  Have you put Apple Music on your Android phone yet?

• 28:22Speaker 01

  I have not.

• 28:23Nilay Patel?

  Every day.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  So you want, you want to talk about ecosystem lock-in?

• 28:26Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Like, I'm the guy that's using Google Play Music because it gives me YouTube Red.

• 28:30Nilay Patel?

  Oh yeah, no, I still subscribe to YouTube, Google Play Music, but I, but I pay for everything like an idiot.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  I've been trying to stop.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, but, but I feel like that's an overt part of Google's software offerings. Like, that's part of the, you know, the, the launch of this new Google Music and YouTube Red. Like, you pay for one and you get the other. And it's not like they're, they're like sneakily locking you in in the background and saying, well, now you're going to be using this service and this service, this service too, right?

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Well, it's not sneaky, but it's definitely there.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Marketing for it.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  Right?

• 28:58Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been meaning to switch back to Spotify, although I will say, audio going down,

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Apple Music launching, the ability to move your libraries and your playlists from one music service to another is an unmitigated nightmare. It is like, I straight up, I'm like, I'm, I, I need to learn JavaScript and like, I need to go into the console on Chrome and they're like hacking into like the web clients for these apps to like, like run through this program that you run in JavaScript to like manually create the thing that it ripped from the other thing. It's insane.

• 29:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, you're just paying for a license to music.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:43Nilay Patel?

  Like, you should be able to export a CSV file of, of list of things that you like. Like, well, I don't get, I don't know. The lock in there is like very annoying.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  The thing that I, I was thinking is there's, there should be a data, a pub, you remember, what was the, the, the CDB database? Remember CDB? That, when I want to embed a playlist of music, I should just be able to like have an app that like reads CDB, it just gives me a list of codes. And then the web browser will know that, oh yeah, you're subscribed to these services and it'll just display that, the playlist for those services. Or if I want to buy those songs or whatever, I could just like click that special link that the whole world understands is like that, this code for that song. And like all the music services would understand it.

• 30:28Nilay Patel?

  If only the web wasn't dying.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Right?

• 30:31Nilay Patel?

  I mean, that's like.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 30:33Nilay Patel?

  Right. There's somebody listening that you would otherwise build it, but they're busy like building a native app for a Windows phone.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:37Nilay Patel?

  But there's.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 30:38Speaker 03

  For iOS.

• 30:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, it's almost certainly for iOS.

• 30:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  I mean, let's be honest.

• 30:44Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Like, I. By the way, just if anybody at Microsoft is listening, uh, calendars, Windows 10? Still broken, still just ruining my life every day.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  I, um. I, I would, I shopped for a Surface yesterday.

• 30:56Nilay Patel?

  A Surface?

• 30:57Speaker 03

  As before?

• 30:57Nilay Patel?

  Surface book.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  I've been, uh, Surface, Surface and a Surface Pro 4. And.

• 31:01Nilay Patel?

  What? Wait, wait.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  I didn't buy one.

• 31:02Nilay Patel?

  Surface?

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, the baby Surface and Surface Pro 4. I, we're gonna get into this later.

• 31:06Speaker 03

  What are you calling the baby Surface? The Surface book?

• 31:08Speaker 01

  But the calendar thing is.

• 31:08Speaker 03

  You're calling it Surface book?

• 31:09Speaker 01

  No, the Surface, the Surface 3.

• 31:11Speaker 03

  Oh, I thought you said the Surface book.

• 31:13Nilay Patel?

  The Surface, the Surface, and there's a Surface Pro and a Surface book.

• 31:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:16Nilay Patel?

  And then there's an iPad.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Ultimately, I'm not walking away because the thing ruins our calendars. I don't think I'm gonna be able to do it.

• 31:20Speaker 03

  Well, and I, my experience with the Surface 3, not the Surface Pro, is that it was incredibly slow.

• 31:26Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I'm waiting for the latest updates that just came out to hit it, uh, and we'll see how that goes.

• 31:31Nilay Patel?

  Um, can I say a thing about the CDB?

• 31:33Speaker 03

  You could get a yoga.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:35Nilay Patel?

  Right. Is that the 900?

• 31:37Speaker 03

  This is the yoga 900.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  I don't wanna spend more than like $800 on a tablet.

• 31:41Speaker 03

  13.99.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Right now.

• 31:43Nilay Patel?

  I'm, I've always been into those.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  I want a tablet that can do things.

• 31:47Nilay Patel?

  I mean, I like the, I like the foldy.

• 31:48Speaker 03

  You like the bendiness?

• 31:49Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I'm into it.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  I don't know. CDB.

• 31:52Nilay Patel?

  Oh, so.

• 31:53Speaker 03

  I gotta say one more thing, though.

• 31:55Nilay Patel?

  We all gotta say a thing.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  I feel, I feel very badly for Fumo right now because we are so in the weeds with this nerd talk.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  It's fine. I'm just here for decoration.

• 32:03Nilay Patel?

  Oh, come on. Oh, whatever. I gotta, I gotta.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Harley, you're the main event.

• 32:06Nilay Patel?

  I'm gonna say this. I got a whole lightning round of Fumo bait coming. Don't even worry about it.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  I'm so happy to just.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  My Google search history today, by the way, not pretty.

• 32:17Speaker 03

  Oh, I know what he's talking about.

• 32:19Nilay Patel?

  Weird. Um, don't worry, Sam used to sit there and not say anything for like hours at a time. You're cool. Uh, no, a thing I was gonna say with that you brought up the C D D B. And I realized this thing.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  Like what is, I don't can't, I can't even.

• 32:32Nilay Patel?

  It was just compact this database. So you'd put, you would put a C D in your computer in the ancient times. And like iTunes would go hit the C D D B and download all of the track listing and all of the album art and all of the liner notes.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Well, album art came from another database, but regardless.

• 32:49Nilay Patel?

  Whatever. But I realized, oh, we are such nerds. But I realized I was at my, my buddy's house and he bought the new Apple TV. And he's like, this thing is the best. I threw away my cable box. I threw away everything.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  A new one.

• 33:00Nilay Patel?

  I'm just using Apple TV. He threw away his regular remotes because it's all C E C. So he like, because he only has the one thing. And I was like, dude, you're crazy. And he was like, no, come over and look at it. And I went over and I realized my buddy is like the world's most insane pirate.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 33:16Nilay Patel?

  And so he's got BitTorrent and Usenet and all these things, just like running 24/7 on a Mac Mini. It pulls down everything, like literally like every TV show, every movie, it's just yanking it all off the internet.

• 33:29Speaker 03

  Blowing up your friend's spot right now. So bad.

• 33:31Nilay Patel?

  They didn't name the friend. His name is Tom. Uh, and then Plex.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:37Nilay Patel?

  Finds that stuff.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:38Nilay Patel?

  And goes out to all the databases, downloads all of the art, downloads related content, finds subtitles, does multiple audio, like crazy Plex stuff.

• 33:48Speaker 03

  Plex is available in other boxes too, though.

• 33:51Nilay Patel?

  But like, he's like Plex in like the Plex interface, after all of this insane piracy has like content recommendations. It's like, you like this show, you might like these other shows. It's all like stolen. He's like, this is the best. Like, I couldn't buy this experience for any amount of money. And like, we're just sitting there watching all like, and I was like, the Apple TV is sick if you pirate everything. It's like, the killer app for the Apple TV is Plex because you can just pirate like a maniac.

• 34:21Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 34:21Nilay Patel?

  That's, and that's what I think of the CD. Cause my friends like rip CDs for me.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:25Nilay Patel?

  And then you can put them in iTunes and it would just like figure it all out. You're like, throw this away.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 34:29Nilay Patel?

  It's great.

• 34:32Nilay Patel?

  Did you know that with just a few lines, by the way, this ad-

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Is the best.

• 34:36Speaker 03

  Which one's this?

• 34:36Speaker 01

  I like this ad so much, I'm actually jealous that Neela gets to read it.

• 34:40Nilay Patel?

  It's a new advertiser for us. And by the way, the fact that this show is now

• 34:46Nilay Patel?

  how attractive to new kinds of advertisers.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  What's wrong with you people?

• 34:50Nilay Patel?

  Something is happening in the podcast world where apparently this is what, this is how you should spend your money to attract new customers. But anyway, did you know that with just a few lines of code, you can send text messages that include alerts, reminders, order updates, SMS marketing campaigns, and instructions for app downloads? Dieter?

• 35:05Speaker 01

  I did.

• 35:05Nilay Patel?

  It's true!

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:10Nilay Patel?

  With Telecommunication Systems Inc.'s Cloud Messaging Center, developers can easily integrate text messages into their own mobile applications, backend, or website. As a company, TCS handles up to 670 billion messages per year. That's an average of 1.8 billion messages a day. Odd place for an exclamation point. Their CMC REST API-

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Wait, what?

• 35:35Nilay Patel?

  The CMC REST API, bro.

• 35:36Speaker 01

  They use a REST API?

• 35:37Nilay Patel?

  REST API.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Dude, I love nothing more than RESTful APIs.

• 35:39Nilay Patel?

  So chill. Allows you to send messages for alerts, reminders, and order updates. You can also use it to send SMS marketing campaigns to drive app downloads or to increase user engagement. That REST API, once again, allows you to perform messaging functions such as sending, receiving, and scheduling messages, securing delivery receipts, and creating groups and contacts. TCS, Telecommunication Systems Incorporated, offers inter-carrier messaging across all US wireless carriers, and the pricing is flexible and based on quantity of messages needed, featuring pay-as-you-go monthly plans.

• 36:13Nilay Patel?

  Go to cloudmessaging.guru to sign up for the Cloud Messaging Center REST API. And please, please integrate this messaging solution today. Hopefully, hopefully, TCS will return to the show.

• 36:28Speaker 03

  Theverge.guru.

• 36:29Nilay Patel?

  Dot guru.

• 36:31Nilay Patel?

  I don't know, man. I'm doing what I can.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Rhymes with chlamydia.

• 36:36Nilay Patel?

  Look, there's only two more ads left. We're gonna get through this. All right, so let's do, I want to do 10 or so on Nicola's collection of screens. And then we got a lightning round, and then another, another poor advertiser will be subjected to this, and then we'll be done. Okay, let's talk about your collection of screens.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Please.

• 36:57Nilay Patel?

  What's, again, so Nicola, right now, is typing on a Mac Quick Air.

• 37:04Nilay Patel?

  She's located as far as physically possible from the Surface Pro 4.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  There's some supplemental stuff going on here.

• 37:13Nilay Patel?

  She's got an iPad.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  I have the pencil close to me. I love the pencil.

• 37:16Nilay Patel?

  She's holding the pencil, but the iPad Pro is also far away from her. And she's been checking your phone intermittently. What's going on in your life right now?

• 37:22Speaker 02

  All right, so, okay.

• 37:24Nilay Patel?

  And she's literally banging the pencil.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  I love the pencil. I like, put it in my hand and I was just like, oh, this feels nice. It's like weighted, so it just sits there really well. Like, if you've ever used a nice pen, I'm for the pencil. But it costs like a dumb amount, right? It's like $80 or something.

• 37:42Nilay Patel?

  Hundred dollars.

• 37:43Speaker 03

  It's $100. Oh my god. That's dumb. It's not that nice.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  But if someone shows up to your desk and puts it in your hand, you go, oh, I love this.

• 37:50Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  So then I played with the iPad Pro, and I made some drawings on the Adobe thing.

• 37:56Speaker 03

  Did you draw Nilay?

• 37:58Speaker 02

  No, I wrote my name. Like, I was like, oh, what do you do? I'll write my name.

• 38:02Nilay Patel?

  What phrase do you type when you test a keyboard? Do you have a secret go-to phrase?

• 38:06Speaker 03

  Hi, my name is Lauren Good.

• 38:07Nilay Patel?

  Yep. Dear?

• 38:08Speaker 01

  I'm old school. A quick brown fox jumped over a lazy dog.

• 38:11Nilay Patel?

  Whoa.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  My note to myself was, don't forget to use this line break, hmm, line break, what?

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Because I was trying to test it.

• 38:24Speaker 03

  That was amazing.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Do you want to know how much of a deep nerd I am? If I don't have time to type the whole quick brown fox thing, I type, "Lorum is some duller sick amit."

• 38:33Nilay Patel?

  Wow, you're crazy.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:35Nilay Patel?

  Wow. Okay.

• 38:37Speaker 03

  What was that again?

• 38:38Nilay Patel?

  I just typed my name.

• 38:38Speaker 03

  Don't forget to, don't forget to test.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Don't forget to use this, "Hmm, what?"

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Sounds like a Kesha song.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 38:46Nilay Patel?

  No, don't forget to use the song title, "Hmm, what?"

• 38:48Speaker 02

  Most new album.

• 38:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. That's pretty good.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Um, but yeah, so I, I immediately pulled it out and I played with it. And then I realized there was an attached keyboard and then I set that up. And then my coworker turned around and was like, "Oh, it's as big as your computer." And it is by one tenth of an inch.

• 39:05Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. No, it's huge. It's like comedy huge.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  And we were like, "Yeah, this would be fun to use." Like, like you could use this instead. Oh, I, I gotta use my computer. Like immediately, immediately. Yeah.

• 39:18Nilay Patel?

  So Lauren wrote a whole piece about this.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  That's the best review ever.

• 39:21Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 03

  I think I could use this instead of, oh, I'd have to use my computer.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, oh, wait, I want to do something, anything now. I liked the two, oh, and the best thing that happened was it was like, so, so it opened up the split screen. I was like, oh, this is cool. And their verge was up, of course. And there was a, um, Sang Sung Galaxy ad on the verge of something with the, this, and putting this surface, whatever away. And it was, and it was like a female hand holding a phone, but it's not a phone. It's a galaxy, I learned in the end. And she has like two little triangle tattoos on her wrist and like gold jewelry and like a, like a shiny red nail. Yeah. And I was, and it was just like the styling of the female hand was like,

• 40:08Speaker 02

  the fact that it was cropped in, but you could still see like two tiny little tattoos, but also gold jewelry. Do you know what I mean? It was just like, oh, this is so specific. Anyway, that was a tangent that happened to me on the iPad.

• 40:23Nilay Patel?

  Good story. No, I hear what you're saying. Wow, wow. Shut down by Fumo.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Because all I want to talk about, all I want to talk about is the female hand in the phone ad. But we can talk.

• 40:36Nilay Patel?

  I feel like hand styling has become like a thing.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:39Nilay Patel?

  Because of phones. Because the hands are on every ad.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that hand communicated so much.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  What did it say to you?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  What woman? She's like, alright, so she definitely had like nice enough jewelry on and it was stylish and artistic, right? Like, this was so, like, I mean, I don't know if you got, I guess because of our conversation earlier, you've never done any styling work. But like, little details like that, they're not accidents. You know what I mean? Like, they didn't accidentally, it wasn't like, oh, the model has a tiny tattoo, I can't believe it. Like, oh, we're gonna paint her nail like this color, like, oh, we're gonna, she's gonna wear this jewelry. Like, none of that is an accident. It's this whole, like, she's creative, but she's on the go, she's professional, but she's edgy. You know what I mean? Like, each of those pieces, the little bracelet and the tattoo and the ring and the nail, like, they all mean something.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  Did that make you want a galaxy?

• 41:25Speaker 02

  No, but it just like, it looked, I mean, it looked thirsty. It was like, oh, you're trying to be about this woman. And I see you.

• 41:32Nilay Patel?

  I see you.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  I see you.

• 41:33Speaker 03

  I like this breakdown.

• 41:34Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, no, watching those ads, Nicola is like intensely focused on how these tech companies are marketing to women.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  I know, it's my obsession.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  I think that's great, because at The Verge, we're more like, I don't know, this android skin over this looks just really obnoxious. And we get really into like.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  Oh, we did, wait.

• 41:51Speaker 03

  Different type of skin.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  I, no, I sent this to you, the like, the T-Mobile, what, T-Mobile sends me a racked editor.

• 41:56Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  As an email versus what they would send like you guys about the same programs.

• 42:00Nilay Patel?

  Literally in the same events even.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  The, the way that they like, speak to us, it's just, I think I've mentioned this before, but it's just like, it's insane.

• 42:10Nilay Patel?

  What was the one, it was like, why does your phone wear the same outfit every day?

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Can I read it?

• 42:14Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:15Nilay Patel?

  I mean, what?

• 42:16Speaker 03

  No, I just mean like, oh, no, for, for her sake, like.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 03

  To get emails like that.

• 42:22Nilay Patel?

  This is a deep conversation about the iPad. Well, well, okay, while Nicola is digging through her email, why don't you tell me about the piece here today? Which I am really interested in, which is, the iPad Pro is here, there's so much conversation about how fast it is and the screen is big and it's got a keyboard. And then app developers, or at least some app developers are like, you know what? No.

• 42:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:45Nilay Patel?

  There's no money here for us.

• 42:47Speaker 03

  It's this interesting juxtaposition of Apple saying, this is a really high-powered device that can support professional-grade software and a bunch of creativity apps. And you've seen that in all, like, you know, the marketing, the present, the initial presentation of it. But over the past week, I've spoken to several app developers who make creative applications, heavy creative applications, mostly for desktops, who say they're just either not making for iPad Pro, or they're just, they're weighing the economic incentives right now because everything is structured by the App Store.

• 43:17Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 43:17Speaker 03

  So it's this computer-like device, it's this really powerful device, and we're seeing more and more of this convergence of PCs and tablets. But for, like, the way the App Store is structured and the policies of the App Store, they're, they're saying, I would normally charge $99 or $300, whatever it might be, for this piece of software on the web, and I can't do that in the App Store because people won't buy it that way in the App Store.

• 43:38Nilay Patel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  And people can't do free trials of my software, and I can't issue paid upgrades when I have a significant update to the app.

• 43:45Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 43:45Speaker 03

  And so, you know, everyone, everyone, at this point, the story of, like, the way the App Store is structured is very well told. It's a lot of free-to-play, it's, you've got, like, these whales, right, that are, what are you, what are you?

• 43:58Nilay Patel?

  Emily just put up a headline on our site.

• 44:00Speaker 03

  Oh, is it, what is it?

• 44:01Nilay Patel?

  Jimmy Iovine thinks finding music is too difficult for women.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Uh, that's actually a thing that he said.

• 44:06Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Anyway, keep going on your thing, and then we'll, we'll, this will, we'll transition back in the Nicholas thing, because it's all the same thing. Anyway.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  It's all the same thing.

• 44:13Nilay Patel?

  Keep going about the iPad.

• 44:14Speaker 03

  Oh, oh, yeah. So, anyway, so, you know, it's not this way for every developer. There are a lot of developers who just say, listen, the power of the iOS ecosystem is so great, and I have some, I've accessed hundreds of millions of consumers if I make my app for iOS. It's like, it's not even a question for most of them. But there are some who are just like, I, their, software is not sustainable, right? The more and more we iterate on our software.

• 44:35Nilay Patel?

  Mobile software is not sustainable.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  Mobile software, because the more and more they update their software, the more people they hire, the more they, like, do all these things to make it better, like, it's, the economics don't work out if you are selling your app for 99 cents or free and trying to sell really powerful software that way.

• 44:50Nilay Patel?

  And if you're trying to sell powerful software, you can't be like, hey, get a new paintbrush for $3.

• 44:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Some companies tried in-app tools, in-app purchases, sort of modeling the free

• 44:59Nilay Patel?

  Paper tried it and they gave up and they're like, now we make a pencil.

• 45:01Speaker 03

  And they were free and then they started making hardware. And they also, by the way, I mean, Paper is, we love 53, but you know, they have at least $45 million in venture capital funding from some pretty fancy VC firms and like, not every indie developer that makes cool software, niche software can go out and do that, can make hardware, can raise money from venture capitalists like that or want to. So the question becomes like, as, as Apple is saying, like, why do you need a PC? Here's this amazingly powerful tablet. Like, why isn't Final Cut Pro on the iPad Pro? Like, you're telling me to use iMovie? My friend's nine-year-old daughter uses iMovie. Like, I want to use Final Cut Pro and it's a Pro tablet. And, and so like, if some of Apple's own professional software isn't being

• 45:44Speaker 03

  optimized, at least at this point, for this platform, then how can you expect these indie developers need to make a buck at the end of the day?

• 45:49Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, and Apple could just give it away for free. I mean, like, they would not even dent, it wouldn't even like ding off their bottom line, right? Like, they just give it away. And that, I've been thinking about this a lot. I actually had this long conversation with Walt on his show, both yesterday when we taped it and last week, about computers and complexity and like what a computer is. And Jake Katschakas did a great video today where he was comparing the Surface Pro 4 and the iPad Pro. And he's like, the Surface Pro 4 is a laptop that wants to be a tablet and the iPad is a tablet that wants to be a laptop. And they're just both in the middle of, in their shades of gray of each other.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:25Nilay Patel?

  But what strikes me about the iPad in this, this conversation we just had about like, oh, I gotta do some of my work, I use my computer, is like, Apple has like gone too far making things simple. Right? Like, they're like, we're removing complexity. And it's like, at some point, complexity is an evil. Like, complexity is what enables you to do things.

• 46:42Speaker 03

  Right. And it's what creates the value. It's what, it's people saying, people in certain professional fields saying, I would pay X amount of dollars, hundreds of dollars for this software because it lets me do my job in a complex way.

• 46:55Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 46:55Speaker 03

  Which can be a good thing. And then, you know, some of the story gets into this too, which is, if you're a Facebook, or you're an Adobe, or you're a Microsoft, like, you can totally do Free because your your business models are different like in this case of Adobe right? They have they offer a variety of these free lightweight apps on iPad Pro like comp and sketch and mix and fix and all this other stuff. Because at the end of the day, you're going to go pay for your Adobe Creative Cloud service and you're going to buy Photoshop and you're going to use Lightroom, right? I paid $10 a month for those services. And so that's the way they do that. But if you're a small time developer, that economic model is not necessarily going to work for you.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Well, because one, people know, oh, this is Adobe thing. Oh, yeah, I could sign up for Adobe's thing. But if you're a small time developer, like, am I going to go sign up for like Joe's App Shop subscription? No, I guess I could sign up if Apple wanted, if he wanted to like use Apple's subscription. But now Joe has to give a 30% cut to Apple, so he's got to increase it a little bit.

• 47:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  And like not every piece of software like can move to a subscription model. And it's like in-app purchasing for like, you know, trials or like pro apps is a bad model because like you're going to want to upgrade at some point. They're going to want to like charge for that upgrade at some point. And like piling on like year after year of like in-app purchases for upgrades is insane.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Subscriptions, I think, like it works for some people, but I don't think it would have worked for everybody. So it's it's not just that they haven't added enough complexity into iOS to support the stuff that we want to do. Although I do wish that they would open it up and do that a little bit. It's that they've they've refused to allow complexity in the actual business model of how they're the people in their ecosystem are supposed to make money. Like, that's the real problem.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  I mean, I heard one developer say, we we charge $99 for our app on the Mac App Store. But we can't issue a free trial of that software to people through iOS. And so we would never dare ask someone to pay $99 sight unseen on this app. And then what if they tried and they don't like it? And then what do they do? They go to the App Store, they leave a one star review and they're angry. Because they haven't been able to trial it. So you know, Apple's answer to this has traditionally been, well, they're in-app purchases, right? Which is sort of getting back to this whole idea, but that's just doesn't work for everybody. So I think it's, it, the story is really more about like the iPad Pro. It's, it's not like pointing fingers at the iPad Pro and being like, bad, this is bad. It's more that this new sort of hybrid-like device with the power of a computer,

• 49:22Speaker 03

  but with a tablet form factor and a mobile operating system is bringing to light these, these issues with App Store, the way the App Store is operating. And I think like as these devices converge more, we're going to have to, Apple's gonna, you know, all the App Stores are gonna have to look at how they're, how they're structured.

• 49:38Nilay Patel?

  Or they're gonna shuffle out people's side load apps on the thing.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:40Nilay Patel?

  That's a totally valid choice, right? Like, just let Adobe make Photoshop and sell it on the side.

• 49:46Speaker 03

  Right.

• 49:47Nilay Patel?

  And I, and that to me, that's what I mean by the complexity, like that will add complexity. And like, maybe it'll open up to viruses or whatever Apple's afraid of.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:55Nilay Patel?

  But it works great on the Mac.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  Or do the mobile version of Gatekeeper then?

• 49:59Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:00Nilay Patel?

  It, hmm, right.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  No, they could.

• 50:03Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  I mean, Android is doing the, like, they are, they're, they're aggressively checking stuff. Of course, everybody's like, Android's got a ton of viruses, but they're doing monthly security updates. They're checking all the apps if you sign up for Google Play services to check for stuff. And you can, you can get virus scanners on Android, although I don't think you should.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:24Nilay Patel?

  What did you think of the Surface Pro?

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Um, it wouldn't let me log in.

• 50:30Nilay Patel?

  We'll bring it back next week. The Surface Pro.

• 50:32Speaker 03

  Uh, Neela's password on that is I love racked 2015.

• 50:35Nilay Patel?

  It is.

• 50:35Speaker 03

  So if you just enter that in.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  I actually do have the password somewhere.

• 50:40Speaker 03

  But then you asked this question last week on the Vergecast where you said, right now iPad Pro or Surface Pro 4? And the answer is, you know, regardless of form factor, the fact that Nicola is sitting like seven feet from the Surface Pro 4 right now is gonna come.

• 50:54Nilay Patel?

  It's getting farther away from her.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  It is. It's actually creeping farther away. She's like, I don't know what to do with this. Um, it's the, I mean, the fact that it can run professional-grade software is, is a differentiator.

• 51:03Nilay Patel?

  It's a real computer.

• 51:04Speaker 03

  For some people, it's a differentiator.

• 51:05Nilay Patel?

  And that's why my question is, what is a computer? Like, that thing's a real computer.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  That's Surface. Pro four as it's currently specced is somewhere around sixteen, seventeen hundred dollars. That that iPad Pro as spec with the pencil in the thing is like a thousand.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  It's ten forty nine without the pencil.

• 51:22Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, but you can get a Windows laptop for a hundred and fifty bucks.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you can't get a Windows laptop that like feels tablet-y when you want it to. That is any good for.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  I would say just by. This is.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  This thing, by the way, is a Lenovo Yoga, whatever.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  Nine hundred. They changed their naming convention. It's thirteen ninety nine. I think this one.

• 51:40Nilay Patel?

  You can get it two in one Windows PC for a thousand dollars.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Right. But what like, can you get something? This is my.

• 51:46Nilay Patel?

  Why are you staring at me like that?

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Nothing. Go on.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  All right. Can you get a tablet that costs less than like, call it eight hundred bucks that can like feel lap top-y that does all the things that you want it to? And like, I don't think the answer is yes.

• 51:59Nilay Patel?

  Not yet, but soon. I feel soon.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Between these two here that I have, like.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  I I I would be, I would feel more comfortable using this, the Surface.

• 52:10Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  Then the iPad with the keyboard. But like you said, Dieter, like if you're not, I mean, if these are like, if there's eight hundred dollars difference between them, seven hundred dollars between them. But this like feels, this is like scares me. This ratio of screen to keyboard scares me. Like, I feel like I'm gonna. I feel like it's gonna, yeah, just go away. And this also feels like.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  It feels like sturdy and I feel like I can do this and I'm okay with it. But if I were to like, close the iPad, I have to like be like delicate.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Close the keyboard. Let's see you do the origami.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Drag it. Imagine on an airplane.

• 52:50Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, on an airplane, you're great.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  If you ever needed a good reason to watch this on YouTube, that that you can't hear is what.

• 53:00Nilay Patel?

  All right. Dropbox Your Business helps people work the way that you want to work. All the things you love about Dropbox. And presumably you love many things about Dropbox, but you also love enterprise-grade security and administrative controls. They're there. You can help your team work together on any file type on any device, simply and securely. There's customizable sharing controls, expiration dates and passwords for shared links. Over a hundred thousand businesses already use Dropbox Your Business and your business could be one of those. So just please sign up for Dropbox Your Business.

• 53:30Nilay Patel?

  I like that I've started ending all the ads by just begging people to use these products.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  That's why they keep coming back to you, baby. It's that begging that you do for them.

• 53:39Nilay Patel?

  God, why?

• 53:41Speaker 02

  They fund this hour of nonsense so that you'll beg.

• 53:44Nilay Patel?

  If only there was a place where my business could share files in a box, a Dropbox. Dropbox or business, it's all yours. Okay, it's lightning round time.

• 53:54Speaker 02

  Wait, can I read this email from T-Mobile?

• 53:56Nilay Patel?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, we're gonna go over today. I want you to read that, and then I want to read this Jimmy Iovine quote, because it's crazy.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  I just read that and Emily Yoshida is...

• 54:03Speaker 03

  We still didn't get to talk about the other thing.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  My Google search, my dirty, dirty Google search.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  Read the email, read the email.

• 54:09Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, we're just, we're destined to go over today.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  From T-Mobile News at can'tsay.com.

• 54:16Nilay Patel?

  Can'tsay.com, blowing up right now.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Sorry, guys, right now. Hi, Nicola. Here's a question for the fashionably conscious should be asking, what's my phone wearing? Every day we get up and make accessory choices, what shoes, what bag, what coat? And then we leave the house with a phone in the same ugly utilitarian case every day. That phone that you spend all your time with and carry everywhere, dot, dot, dot, forced into a lifelong bad outfit? Tragic.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  When I got this, I started, like, my heart started racing, started sweating. I've read it so many times that I don't feel as emotional about it, but I just was like, this is so fucking offensive to me.

• 54:51Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. Did you respond?

• 54:54Speaker 02

  By not ever, by this.

• 54:55Nilay Patel?

  You should have responded.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  This is the response.

• 54:57Nilay Patel?

  You should have responded with a picture of your phone and no case, just being like, yo, just rolling nude.

• 55:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, birthday suit.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  Ugly utilitarian case. I love it.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  I bought it at the Apple Store.

• 55:07Speaker 03

  I thought my pitches were bad. I'm sorry.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  It's just crazy.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  I had a person demand to bring a dog to the office.

• 55:15Nilay Patel?

  Okay, so I'm gonna read. You ready? You ready to get fired up?

• 55:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:19Nilay Patel?

  It's Jimmy Iovine today on CBS.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 55:21Nilay Patel?

  CBS This Morning.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:24Nilay Patel?

  Women find it difficult at times, some women, to find music, and this helps make it easier. I just thought of a problem, you know? Girls are sitting around, you know, talking about boys or complaining about boys, you know, when they're heartbroken or whatever, and they need music for that, right? So it's hard to find the right music, you know? Not everybody has the right lists or knows a DJ.

• 55:48Nilay Patel?

  Apple Music, everybody.

• 55:51Nilay Patel?

  Do you know a DJ? Do you have any heartbreak DJs in your life? I know when I'm feeling low, I call my friends the DJs.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Obviously, many of my friends are. No, I'm not a DJ. It's just that I, no, lots of those.

• 56:06Nilay Patel?

  Oh, man, we didn't talk about Tinder either.

• 56:08Speaker 03

  Neelai.

• 56:10Speaker 03

  What is music? I don't know.

• 56:12Nilay Patel?

  Lists are hard.

• 56:14Speaker 03

  What are lists? I don't know.

• 56:18Nilay Patel?

  I gotta, I gotta say, Emily's write-up of this is gold.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  It's so funny.

• 56:22Nilay Patel?

  Everybody should read that.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  It's really, really funny.

• 56:25Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, when girls are sitting around complaining about boys.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  That's what you do, right? That's all you do.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  It's unfortunately a lot of what we do. I wish it weren't.

• 56:35Nilay Patel?

  Oh, man.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 56:36Nilay Patel?

  So, but you know a bunch of Tinder DJs, then? Have you ever asked a Tinder DJ for heartbreak songs?

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Mad Tinder DJs. Actually, I do love making boys give me music. I do that a lot. And then judge, you know, all kinds of. It's like an easy, quick, I'll be like, oh, I have to write this afternoon, but like, no, I can't have any words. What should I listen to? And then.

• 57:01Speaker 03

  They send you a playlist.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:02Speaker 03

  And then you're like, oh, nope, swipe left.

• 57:05Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  Bad taste.

• 57:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:07Nilay Patel?

  You want to talk about the Tinder CEOs? So, the company that owns Tinder.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  Match.

• 57:13Nilay Patel?

  Match. IPO'd today? Made a bunch of money. But then, like, yesterday, Sean Rad, perfect name. The CEO of Tinder gave this, like, disaster interview.

• 57:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:26Nilay Patel?

  Do you want to talk through it? I mean, there's really just one line. Well, he was like, first of all, he's like, I haven't slept with that many chicks, just 20. And then he was like, supermodels are always trying to bang me. And then he was like.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  One in particular. He was very, very famous. And she just has to fend her off.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  This was like, in my world of the internet yesterday, like, this was the link I couldn't stop seeing. Or like, this was the reblog I couldn't stop seeing everywhere I went with the same, like, couple of things. So, I'm, like, very exhausted from it.

• 57:53Nilay Patel?

  Oh, I see.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:56Nilay Patel?

  Did you have to call her DJ boyfriend to give you songs?

• 57:59Speaker 02

  No, actually, I'm quitting Tinder.

• 58:02Nilay Patel?

  Uh-uh.

• 58:02Speaker 02

  For real.

• 58:03Nilay Patel?

  Didn't you just come back?

• 58:04Speaker 01

  You're on the show.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  But the more I say it's really happening, the more it's gonna happen. And after this, I was like, now I can claim moral reasons, but really, it's just, I'm so tired.

• 58:12Nilay Patel?

  Anyway, what was his line? He was like, I need to find somebody that I intellectually connect with. What's it called?

• 58:18Speaker 02

  Sodomies.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had, I had this-

• 58:20Nilay Patel?

  His PR person was like, no.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  Oh, no, his PR person said we're gonna get fired.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  And so now, in my Google search history, is sodomy rad. Rad sodomy.

• 58:31Nilay Patel?

  Thanks. I gotta say, I mean, just Tinder, just... I feel like the only reason we talk about Tinder on the show is because you have this like a love-hate-

• 58:39Speaker 02

  I know.

• 58:40Nilay Patel?

  Relationship with Tinder.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  When I told my friend this morning that I was like, leaving Tinder, um, she sent me a screen cap, because now Tinder shows where you work on it. And it should, and she sent me a screen cap of someone who's employed at Hinge on Tinder, and she just wrote like, lol, none of us can win, or like, something like that. He works at the other dating one, and he's still out here, and, oh, man.

• 59:03Nilay Patel?

  I like that the, the one, so like, there was like a sexual harassment-

• 59:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:08Nilay Patel?

  Case at Tinder, and then-

• 59:09Speaker 02

  Yes, and then she went and founded another dating app.

• 59:11Nilay Patel?

  And, but that one's called Bumble.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:13Nilay Patel?

  And the idea that it's called Bumble is just such a sad commentary.

• 59:17Speaker 02

  That's the one where women have to message men first, and you only get 24 hours to do it.

• 59:21Nilay Patel?

  Wait a minute.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Wait a minute.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  So you basically, you-

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Who's bumbling, the men or the women?

• 59:24Speaker 02

  You have to message it double, it double vibrates when you match, which is kinda weird.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  If I were on the dating scene, I would definitely be the bumbler, I'm just saying.

• 59:31Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 59:32Speaker 02

  No, what you're supposed to do is you're supposed to message them, and you're supposed to say, hi, how do I find music?

• 59:39Nilay Patel?

  Are you, are you a DJ? I was just sitting around with my friends complaining about boys, and, uh-

• 59:44Speaker 02

  I saw your name in-

• 59:45Nilay Patel?

  It would be great if you could make me a list of songs.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:48Nilay Patel?

  Ah, Jimmy. I, I'm usually such a Jimmy fan, and that's such a fail.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  You don't think this was like a taken-out-of-context, like, conveniently terrible?

• 59:56Nilay Patel?

  Emily embedded the video. I mean, we can play the video. I just, I've already read all the quotes, so-

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  Isn't that how it works?

• 1:00:03Nilay Patel?

  Are you ready?

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  Sean Redd also said that his mom, um, this is actually pretty sweet, she texts him like 17 times a day, and she calls a lot.

• 1:00:11Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, because he's crazy.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  He talks to his mom a lot.

• 1:00:13Nilay Patel?

  He's probably like, are you talking to a reporter? Be quiet. If I was Sean Red's mom, like, I would just have that in a macro, be like, "It's on the hour beep." Alright, lightning round.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Speaker 03

  Boy.

• 1:00:25Nilay Patel?

  Uh...

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  Cats and pickles. Cucumbers.

• 1:00:30Nilay Patel?

  What just happened to Lauren, everybody?

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Cats hate them some cucumbers. Not fans of cucumbers.

• 1:00:36Nilay Patel?

  What the hell is going on?

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  They cannot stand them.

• 1:00:41Nilay Patel?

  What just happened?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  They like tomatoes, but cucumbers?

• 1:00:45Speaker 03

  Zucchini's, okay.

• 1:00:46Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, yeah, zucchini's are fine, but not cucumbers.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Anybody know what the hell's going on?

• 1:00:52Speaker 03

  No. You have to have a cat to understand.

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  Teeter and I were, oh, it's the whole, it's the whole thing. Okay.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  Well, that was the lightning round.

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  Really weird inside joke.

• 1:01:08Nilay Patel?

  T-Mobile has, it's super strange, although, stop looking at me that way.

• 1:01:13Speaker 02

  I don't know what's happening.

• 1:01:14Nilay Patel?

  T-Mobile has sued yet another company for using the color magenta. They claim that they, oh, they have a trademark on the color magenta and people are getting confused. This time is a German smartwatch company called Oxy. Do you think colors should be trademarkable like that? I, they actually are, because of the name.

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  I mean...

• 1:01:30Nilay Patel?

  Do you only think of T-Mobile and you think of magenta?

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  Or do, like, I'm okay with a, with a brand being like, "This is our Pantone, like, we have this."

• 1:01:39Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. You know, I really put this in to tell a story that when we ran and gadget, and gadget mobile's color was magenta and T-Mobile sued us.

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  Really? Did they really?

• 1:01:48Nilay Patel?

  It's ridiculous.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  How did that end up?

• 1:01:50Nilay Patel?

  Uh, we put up a post saying T-Mobile just sued us for trying to use magenta and people freaked out and T-Mobile backed all the way down.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  Power.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Wouldn't, couldn't you just say that, uh, color is a secondary property, not a primary property and therefore doesn't exist in reality?

• 1:02:03Nilay Patel?

  Ding. Adele's new album is out, have you listened to it?

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:02:07Nilay Patel?

  You?

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  No. It's not on Spotify, though. Micah, all day.

• 1:02:10Nilay Patel?

  Micah got it right.

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  I can't, I don't know how to find music.

• 1:02:14Nilay Patel?

  You gotta get on Tinder to find some DJs.

• 1:02:16Speaker 03

  No, of course I've heard it. Hello from the other side, Dieter.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:02:20Nilay Patel?

  Wow.

• 1:02:21Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 1:02:21Nilay Patel?

  I don't get it. It's like this huge phenomenon. I just, I'm, I don't get it.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  I listened to the new Justin Bieber.

• 1:02:28Speaker 03

  How's that?

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  I love Steel Drums Sad Boy Island Bieber, the new Bieber, and he's just begging for forgiveness.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  From who? From Selena?

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  No, from all of us, because he knows he's been.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  He's on, he's on his LaBoof tour.

• 1:02:42Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:02:43Nilay Patel?

  By the way, Steel Drums Sad Boy.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  Steel Drums Sad Boy, yeah.

• 1:02:46Nilay Patel?

  That is my band's name.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  But it's all just like island, like da da, da da, da da. But then he's just like, comes in with his emotions and forgiveness.

• 1:02:55Nilay Patel?

  Dieter reviewed the Chrome Bit, which turns any monitor or television into a Chrome OS computer for $85.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yes, I did.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  I watched the Snap story of it.

• 1:03:04Speaker 03

  Should I buy it? Should we buy it?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Buy it if you want a spare, random ass computer in your junk drawer. Buy it if you know you're never gonna use it more than five tabs on it.

• 1:03:13Nilay Patel?

  Elliot Osh this week, you got a bunch of people there. Tamara Warren got a huge scoop.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:03:18Nilay Patel?

  Found a company, it's a secret company, it's a grand Tesla. But Thomas Sirkur this morning put a head on the site, Cars and New Gadget. Is that correct, Lauren Good?

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:03:27Nilay Patel?

  Land Rover Evoque convertible SUV.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  Land Rover Evoque?

• 1:03:34Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Convertible SUV?

• 1:03:36Nilay Patel?

  Convertible SUV.

• 1:03:37Speaker 03

  A convertible SUV.

• 1:03:38Nilay Patel?

  Two-door convertible SUV.

• 1:03:39Speaker 03

  Yes. Yes. This is either like the coolest thing ever, or it's the next beauty cruiser.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  I'm like, wait, do I love this? Or is this like the worst?

• 1:03:46Nilay Patel?

  The press shot is a guy, they're driving, I believe he's in the snow, but he's wearing sunglasses and like short sleeves with the top down, just like blasting in his SUV. That's the whole life. I'm assuming he's not wearing shoes. Lightning round, driving a car with no shoes on.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Bad. Super bad.

• 1:04:03Speaker 02

  Awful.

• 1:04:03Nilay Patel?

  Super fun.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  No, no. Because if you get in a garage, you have to walk on the concrete that's got oil slick on it, and that's gross.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  Also, like, I feel like I'd be so focused on the texture on my toes, and then I would be distracted from driving.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  No, but wet feet in the garage, worst thing ever, right?

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  That's disgusting, yeah.

• 1:04:18Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. Emoji is the word of the year. The happy, happy emoji. I'm doing a thing with my hands.

• 1:04:23Speaker 03

  It's not a word, it's an emoji.

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  Ah, don't be a prescriptivist, it's fine.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  What do you mean?

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  I hate it.

• 1:04:28Speaker 03

  The happy emoji has to be the word of the year? I'm confused.

• 1:04:30Nilay Patel?

  It is. The Australian English Dictionary said the word of the year is like the happy with tears.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  It's the crying, it's the like laughing, crying.

• 1:04:36Nilay Patel?

  Laughing, crying, emoji.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  What does that say about this year?

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  It's so sad.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  It says that we're, that words started as pictograms and now we're going back and it's fine. Don't worry about it.

• 1:04:47Speaker 03

  Just like we're going back to Silent Podcast.

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  I don't hate that, actually.

• 1:04:50Nilay Patel?

  Have you, I'm with you. Have you clicked on the Evo convertible picture yet?

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  No, where is it?

• 1:04:55Nilay Patel?

  It's in the run. I'll send it to you. We only have like two more things in Lightning Round.

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:04:59Nilay Patel?

  I'm just saying. Fallout 4, Dieter.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Haven't played afraid to because I want to keep my job and my life and my girlfriend.

• 1:05:06Nilay Patel?

  I don't understand it.

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  Is that like Fallout Boy?

• 1:05:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:11Nilay Patel?

  You're just giggling at the car?

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  No, at Fallout Boy.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  There's no other response to Fallout Boy.

• 1:05:18Speaker 02

  I actually have deep feelings about Fallout Boy, but that's another thing.

• 1:05:21Nilay Patel?

  All right, all right. One more. One more. We're not doing a show next week.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:05:28Nilay Patel?

  So we gotta do, we gotta do it today. Dieter, what are you thankful for?

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Don't start with me.

• 1:05:33Nilay Patel?

  Why not?

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Because I said so.

• 1:05:34Nilay Patel?

  I started with, okay, Lauren, what are you thankful for? You gotta do it too.

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  Do I have to be serious?

• 1:05:40Nilay Patel?

  No.

• 1:05:41Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:05:41Nilay Patel?

  Have you been on this show for the past hour? You can be thankful for Tinder DJs if you want.

• 1:05:46Speaker 03

  Oh, man.

• 1:05:48Nilay Patel?

  You can be, be serious. Get, let the audience connect with you.

• 1:05:52Speaker 03

  Okay. Uh, well, so personally, I'm very thankful to be working with you guys because as of, you know, just a few months ago, I was over at Recode and now we're merging and it's, you know, you guys bought us and it's been going really well so far.

• 1:06:06Nilay Patel?

  It started on a real high and it ended with like a dry statement of facts. Then there was an exchange of value. Now I must work here.

• 1:06:12Speaker 03

  Yes, and I was traded like a baseball player. No, no, but in all seriousness, I'm so excited to be working with you guys. This is, it's really, it's been really cool. So I'm very grateful for that and for that opportunity and the experience so far. It's gonna get better. Um, and I'm also grateful that we just, we're, we're very lucky people. We're very lucky people and you're laughing right now and I'm not, I'm trying to get serious.

• 1:06:34Nilay Patel?

  Freaking out of this cucumber.

• 1:06:36Speaker 03

  Cucumber and I'm grateful.

• 1:06:37Nilay Patel?

  I told you.

• 1:06:38Speaker 03

  Cats and cucumbers.

• 1:06:40Nilay Patel?

  Okay.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Well, I'm thankful that you work here too.

• 1:06:41Nilay Patel?

  All right.

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  Me?

• 1:06:43Nilay Patel?

  Which one? I called on Dieter earlier and he refused to answer. So I'm calling on you, Nicola.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  I'm grateful that my cat allergies are going away with age.

• 1:06:53Nilay Patel?

  What?

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  You have a cat thing. They really are, though. As I get older, I'm less allergic to cats. It's great.

• 1:07:01Nilay Patel?

  Okay. Esoteric response for Thanksgiving.

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  Um, no, I mean, to go the serious note, yeah, I have a really lovely life. I have a lot of very good and supportive people in my world. And I, I love doing this verge thing. It's a totally new weird world to be in. It's great. Um.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, just the basics.

• 1:07:22Nilay Patel?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:22Speaker 02

  Family, friends, employment, and living alone.

• 1:07:28Nilay Patel?

  Another dark alley for Nicola. Really? Okay.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, my God. The Players Mansion?

• 1:07:36Nilay Patel?

  I feel like we're gonna.

• 1:07:37Speaker 02

  That's my hashtag for my home decor on Instagram, the Players Mansion. You can look it up.

• 1:07:41Nilay Patel?

  All right.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  You have to go next. I'm.

• 1:07:43Nilay Patel?

  I actually go next. Well, I'm thankful for all of you. I'm thankful for this show. I like our company and our thing. Uh, and I'm thankful for Tinder DJs. Cause now I want to meet some.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  I can send you a bunch of ghosts.

• 1:07:57Speaker 02

  This is amazing.

• 1:07:58Nilay Patel?

  I'm thankful for having Nicola on the show. I'm, I'm.

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. I love being here.

• 1:08:02Nilay Patel?

  Run zone.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  Uh, thankful for my family. Uh, I'm, I'm thankful for people that on the internet find ways to be kind and humane instead of, uh, knee jerk and mean, cause it's, it's not easy and it's super easy to not be. And so for people who actually try and even in a hundred and forty characters or in a comment, you know, express some charity and find ways to be decent and understanding. It's really nice. Please do it more.

• 1:08:28Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. And we have a good audience. I'm thankful. The Vergecast audience in particular is very kind to us all the time.

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  Nice. Thanks, guys.

• 1:08:34Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. They showed up for Nicola in a comment.

• 1:08:36Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:38Nilay Patel?

  It was hardcore.

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  They like you. It was great. They really like you.

• 1:08:41Nilay Patel?

  All right.

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  They really do.

• 1:08:42Nilay Patel?

  They do. Uh, hang on. We got one more. Just, I'll get through it. Give me a second. Uh, this one's for Braintree.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  That guy's actually tapping his fingers over there. He's like.

• 1:08:53Nilay Patel?

  We're so over it. Look. Look, Andrew, we'll be done with the show in a minute, but first-

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  We're 10 minutes over.

• 1:08:58Nilay Patel?

  Let's talk about Full Stack Payment Solutions.

• 1:09:02Speaker 03

  Softlayer!

• 1:09:03Nilay Patel?

  No, it's Braintree. So wrong.

• 1:09:05Speaker 03

  Oh, no. Oh, sorry, Braintree.

• 1:09:07Nilay Patel?

  I gotta say, Softlayer.

• 1:09:08Speaker 03

  Softlayer owes us like $30, $35 right now.

• 1:09:11Nilay Patel?

  Because they don't know what's going on.

• 1:09:13Speaker 03

  That's a new hashtag for us. That was so great.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  By the way, if you're listening to this, please do not explain to Softlayer's Twitter account. Just keep using the hashtag.

• 1:09:24Nilay Patel?

  But sign up for their cloud services.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:26Nilay Patel?

  All right. Braintree gives you a Full Stack Payment Solution. Braintree has support for all payment types that your customers might want. You can start accepting Android Pay, Apple Pay, PayPal, Bitcoin, Venmo, cards, whatever's next with a single integration across all platforms with superior fraud protection, customer service, and fast payouts. We're gonna just put it on the verge. Just pay the verge with whatever you want. Check it out for yourself. Hit braintreepayments.com/vergecast and just start integrating that money directly into your life.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Can I say something real quick?

• 1:09:57Nilay Patel?

  Yes. And you gotta engage.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I will engage. Before I engage, I want to say, I think two Verge casts ago, I encouraged people. So this would've been two weeks ago, so now we're on the third week of it. Maybe it was three weeks ago. But I encouraged people to troll Neely by saying the Packers suck.

• 1:10:10Nilay Patel?

  They're awful.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  And ever since then-

• 1:10:12Nilay Patel?

  They've just been losing.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  They've been sucking.

• 1:10:13Nilay Patel?

  They're so bad.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Please keep doing it.

• 1:10:16Nilay Patel?

  Speaking of charity, I put up that joke post about the Packers sucking and then Aaron Rodgers throwing a surface on the ground.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:21Nilay Patel?

  I've been getting hate mail from fellow Wisconsinites.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:10:24Nilay Patel?

  Where like, "You don't stop it. Support your team."

• 1:10:27Speaker 03

  It's not about, it's not about Aaron. It's about him throwing the surface.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean-

• 1:10:32Nilay Patel?

  They're also terrible. By the way, it's officially called the Tears of Joy emoji. That's the word of the year. It's Tears of Joy.

• 1:10:38Speaker 03

  I live with a Patriots fan.

• 1:10:40Nilay Patel?

  That would be amazing. Huh?

• 1:10:42Speaker 03

  Oh, I said I live with a Patriots fan, but fortunately-

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  Wow, that's awful.

• 1:10:45Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  If you want to follow us-

• 1:10:47Nilay Patel?

  You should meet some Tinder DJs.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  If you want to follow us, you can.

• 1:10:51Nilay Patel?

  Find some boys who can make you some songs.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  We're at Verge and on Snapchat, on Twitter.

• 1:10:55Nilay Patel?

  On Snapchat, we're The Real Verge.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  You should go to iTunes and give us a review there on iTunes. We prefer the five stars. And while you're there, you should leave a review and you should tell us what you're thankful for. That would be really kind and nice.

• 1:11:10Nilay Patel?

  We sent all the tweets and snaps.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  I have mentioned a couple of tweets and snaps. I'm also going to say we've got other shows. We've got What's Tech, we've got Control, Alt, Delete, and there's Verge ESP. These are all very good shows. You can find all of them at iTunes.com/TheVerge. If you'd like to follow us on Twitter, I am Backlon, Lauren Good is Lauren Good with an E, Nicola Fumo is Nicola Fumo with an underscore.

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  Between the first and last name.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Right. Neelai is reckless.

• 1:11:37Nilay Patel?

  I am.

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  Reckless.

• 1:11:39Nilay Patel?

  Can't find it.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  What was that?

• 1:11:41Nilay Patel?

  I don't know. I think I was trying to wink and then I blinked.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  It was like a two eye half wink.

• 1:11:44Nilay Patel?

  It was kind of a reckless wink. It was kind of a sleepy.

• 1:11:47Speaker 03

  You reckless DJ you.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  We're taking next week off for Thanksgiving.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  Thank you, God.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  So we're gonna miss you and we hope you're in the best.

• 1:11:53Speaker 03

  We're grateful for you guys, so thank you for watching.

• 1:11:56Nilay Patel?

  Tweet at us. We actually have a surprising amount of hilarious Thanksgiving posts going up on the site. I'm excited for that. It's gonna be fun. All right.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  It's called Vikings.

• 1:12:05Nilay Patel?

  Goodbye. Rock and roll.