Pod Insights The Vergecast Can Matter save the smart home? About this episode In our final Vergecast Spec-tacular of the year, Dieter Bohn dives into Matter, the new tech standard that smart home gadgets will use to communicate with each other, making compatibility between gadgets significantly easier.
Guests include:
Verge smart home reviewer Jennifer Pattison Tuohy
Michelle Mindala-Freeman, Head of Marketing for the Connectivity Standards Alliance.
Tim Both, brand manager and product manager for Eve
Samantha Fein, VP of Marketing and Business Development at Samsung SmartThings
Further reading:
Matter's plan to save the smart home
What matters about Matter, the new smart home standard
Matter could bring universal casting that actual works
Smart home company Eve plans to use Matter to move beyond Apple’s HomeKit
Amazon confirms its support for Matter
Google shares its commitment to Matter, promises future interoperability between smart home platforms
Samsung promises Matter support for SmartThings hubs, Galaxy devices, TVs, and fridges
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Transcript 8,785 words · 10 speakers
0:00 Speaker 00 I would like to play a game with you. Playing a game on a podcast is a little tricky, so we're going to keep it simple. I'm just going to list a bunch of terms related to the smart home and I want you to keep track of how many you recognize. Then when we're done, we might have like a one question bonus round. Okay, are you ready? Here we go. Zigbee, Z-Wave, 802.15.4, 6LOWPAN, thread, weave, Bluetooth, Bluetooth low energy, Wi-Fi, bridge, smart things, Alexa, home assistant, Google Home and HomeKit. Okay, did you keep track there? Did you got your score? Feel free to jump back and listen again if you need to. Now here's the bonus round question. Do you think the number of smart home terms that you need to know is going to get bigger
0:44 Speaker 00 or smaller in the future? If there's any single category of technology that has been absolutely awash in too many different standards, protocols, radios and software stacks, it is the smart home. 10 years ago, having smart switches or bulbs in your house was the domain of the very rich or the very nerdy, the kind of people who would get Cresttron systems installed in their house by professionals. But now, thanks in large part to the Echo and the smart speakers that followed, there has been a huge explosion in smart home gadgets and it's gotten way easier to install and use them. But all that smart home past brought a lot of baggage into our smart home present. And so the question is, how much of that are we going to have to carry into our smart
1:28 Speaker 00 home future? Weirdly enough, there might be an actual answer to that question. It's another standard to add to that list of terms, but this time it might mean that you can forget about all of the rest of them. Instead of your number getting bigger, it could get smaller, maybe even down to just one term that you need to know when you buy a smart home gadget. I am Dieter Bone and this week on our special run of Tuesday Vergecast topic-specific episodes, it's time to talk about matter, the new smart home standard that may finally make this whole ecosystem less complicated.
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2:55 Speaker 01 This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Lizanne Saunders, Schwab's Chief Investment Strategist, and Colin Martin, Head of Fixed Income Research and Strategy for the Schwab Center for Financial Research, bring you fresh insights on what's happening in the markets and why, and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Lizanne as they explore questions like, how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com/oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.
3:43 Speaker 00 Okay, so what is matter? Well, we asked a bunch of experts, starting with the Connective Standards Alliance, or CSA, or you might know them as the standards body formerly known as the ZigBee Alliance, or, you know, all you really need to know is that it is the group that's in charge of the new matter standard.
4:02 Speaker 02 My name is Michelle Mandela Freeman, and I am the Head of Marketing for the Connective Standards Alliance. Matter is a breakthrough standards-based protocol that will transform the Internet of Things.
4:16 Speaker 00 We also talked to Eve, a company that makes smart home gadgets with a special focus on compatibility with Apple's HomeKit.
4:23 Speaker 03 I'm Tim Bird from Eve, brand manager and product manager. Matter is basically the unifying standard that will really take the smart home mainstream and get rid of all the fragmentation and problems that have plagued the smart home industry for the past decades.
4:40 Speaker 00 OK, there's one more answer to go from Samsung's SmartThings, but I bet you're starting to see a theme here.
4:46 Speaker 04 I'm Samantha Fine, and I'm VP of Marketing and Business Development at Samsung SmartThings. I would say Matter is the open and universal connected home protocol that makes life easier for developers and consumers.
5:00 Speaker 00 That is a lot of positivity and hype, isn't it? But I bet you're not surprised to hear so much positivity and hype from the people that are in charge of the new standard. One of the things that none of those answers actually do, though, is tell you what Matter actually is, so let's give that a shot.
5:17 Speaker 00 Matter is the language that smart home gadgets are going to use to communicate with each other, so you don't have to worry about whether or not the thing that you buy will be compatible with the other stuff in your house. See, when you have a smart home gadget, there's a few things that need to happen. Here's how it used to work. You need the gadget itself. It needs a radio to communicate, like Wi-Fi or Zigbee, and sometimes that means it also needs a custom bridge, like, say, for Hue lights or something. You need a language to communicate with, like the HomeKit SDK or the Alexa SDK, and you need to control it all with something like Siri or Alexa or a Google Home. Now, if you look at that system of things that you need to make a smart home gadget work, there are just too many places where things might not be compatible.
6:02 Speaker 00 What Matter does is standardize the language between all of these different parts of the system. It's agnostic with regard to the kinds of radios you're using, so it'll support Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, Bluetooth Low Energy, or Thread. It means that no matter what kind of controller you use, the steps for connecting and communicating With your gadgets are the same. And eventually, it might mean that you won't need any more custom radio bridges. Plus, Matter helps define what things are. So the language knows the difference between a light bulb and a smart lock. Matter is going to be released in the middle of 2022 if everything goes to plan. And it'll include a spec that developers can use. Plus, there should be a whole bunch of new devices that officially support it released around the same time.
6:46 Speaker 00 So that's hopefully a not too inaccurate description of Matter. But to check my work, I wanted to check with our resident smart home guru. That would be Jennifer Pattison Tuohy, the smart home reviewer at The Verge. I figured that we should actually talk to somebody who could tell us just how real this hype actually is.
7:03 Speaker 05 All right, I'm going to go really short and sweet here.
7:05 Speaker 00 All right.
7:05 Speaker 05 Matter means you can buy what you want for your smart home. You can plug it in and it will work with everything else in your home.
7:14 Speaker 00 Okay.
7:15 Speaker 05 You don't believe me, do you?
7:16 Speaker 00 No, I don't. Well, so this is everyone, everyone has basically the same, like, everything's going to be wonderful and perfect in the future with Matter thing. Like, the hype is very real with this thing. So the second question I'm asking everybody is, like, what are the odds, expressed as a percentage, that this will actually work?
7:31 Speaker 05 Yes, well, that's a good follow up question because the odds are still, to me, up in the air. I'm not a betting girl, so can I say like 80% chance? I would say there's an 80% chance now. When I first started reporting on Matter, I was thinking this is like a 40 to 50% chance. But I have been steadily increasing my confidence as I've covered this space. Because, you know, the key here is we've got all the big players on board. And as one executive explained it to me, it's a lot like the beginning of the internet, you know, when we had to choose between AOL and CompuServe and Mindspring. I don't actually remember all of that, thankfully, but it's like that. But now we got them all talking, so we don't need to choose.
8:11 Speaker 05 We're getting them to work together and then that will provide us a strong platform to move forward from.
8:17 Speaker 00 The thing that has struck me in talking to a bunch of people about Matter is just how hyped it is, just how much everybody seems to believe that's involved in it, of course. Normally, when there's a standards group, it's, "Well, we'll see. We're working together. We have high hopes," whatever. But this one is like, "We're gonna fix it. It's gonna be great." And I'm wondering if you could just, you've been reporting on smart home stuff for a very long time. You understand the fragmentation better than anybody. Can you put in context how bad the state of smart home is now and why we need something like Matter next year?
8:51 Speaker 05 Yes, I think this is the key to why this could be successful, because this isn't really designed for the consumer. Matter is really for the developer, because I think all of the big companies in the space who have platforms and ecosystems are getting bombarded by developers and manufacturers saying, "We can't develop seven different things, seven different specs. It's really hard to develop for Alexa and to develop for Siri and to develop for HomeKit and to develop for Google and to develop for Samsung and choose whether we should do Zigbee or Z-Wave and whether we have a bridge or a hub." And this means we're spending all our time on those things and not on actually
9:31 Speaker 05 developing our core product and making better features. And so I think that's why these companies have really come together, because they need products for their platforms. Very few of them actually make a lot of products for their platforms. They need developers and they need these products. And that's where I think the promise of Matter is, is it's helping it make it easier for manufacturers to make these things, as well as being useful for the end user, too, not having to choose between platforms.
9:59 Speaker 00 One of those developers is Tim Boot from Eve. Now, Eve makes smart home gadgets, and as I mentioned earlier when I introduced him, they mostly focus on working with HomeKit. But when Matter launches, suddenly Eve is going to have a lot more potential customers. So you can see why Tim likes it.
10:16 Speaker 03 Like initially with a smart home, there wasn't really any standards to work on and any common platforms. So what companies started to do is just build their own ecosystem and build their own little island of things. And then very quickly, it became apparent that having little islands everywhere didn't work out. So you would have this awesome new startup with a new product and it wouldn't work with your specific island. And all of that changed about five or six years ago, when the big players came into the field. So you now have a very dominant landscape of a few big ecosystem providers. But still,
10:57 Speaker 03 if as a, as a normal customer, you walk into a store, you can't be certain the stuff works together in the fashion you want it to. And if you're invested in one ecosystem that maybe doesn't have a smart display, but you really want to have a smart display in your kitchen, it's a pain to get that working together. And what all of that led to is that people just don't like buying these kinds of things because they just don't want to have the pain. And I think the next big step is just removing all of that pain. And then an average consumer can actually go into a store and buy and be confident.
11:33 Speaker 00 That, that all sounds nice, doesn't it? But how does all of this actually work? Let's get back to my conversation with Jennifer. Here's a question that is harder to answer. Is it good? Will it work? Is it, is it like the right solution? Is it a good from a technical perspective?
11:50 Speaker 05 Well, do you think Wi-Fi is good?
11:54 Speaker 00 It depends on where I am in my house.
11:57 Speaker 05 Yeah. So, I mean, it is, Matter works on Wi-Fi and Thread. The important thing to remember is this is a technology. This is not a platform or an ecosystem.
12:05 Speaker 00 Right.
12:05 Speaker 05 So how well it works on an infrastructure level, I think we can feel quite confident that it is good because it's been developed and tested over a long period of time. We're using two very well-known protocols. Wi-Fi, much more well-known, and Thread, which has actually been around for a very long time, even if it hasn't been out in the wild for that long, or the broader smart home. So, you know, these are tried and tested protocols. They're not something brand new. They haven't reinvented a wheel here. So yes, I feel like the actual underlying technology. Is going to be reliable and work well. It is going to rely somewhat on mesh and you know, hence I mentioned wifi. Mesh can be unstable depending on how well you've got your setup. That's why you're going to need these Thread Border routers,
12:50 Speaker 05 which will help extend your mesh network if you have a larger home. But the great thing about Thread Border routers is they're not white boxes you have to stick around your house. Their lighting, their TVs, their smart speakers, they're things you're probably already going to have in your home.
13:07 Speaker 00 Right.
13:07 Speaker 05 So you're not going to have a single point of failure for your smart home, which often is the case now, like someone unplugs your Apple TV by mistake and none of your HomeKit automations work anymore.
13:15 Speaker 00 Right.
13:16 Speaker 05 You know, those types of things are frustrating and that should go away with Matter.
13:23 Speaker 00 I want to zero in on the point Jennifer just made there. The potential end of having to use extra hubs to connect up your smart home gadgets. I am very excited to ditch my hubs and hopefully have them be replaced with things that are more than just smart home hubs. So my router or my Echo or my Apple TV could work as a Matter hub. But it's actually going to be more than that. Jennifer mentioned Thread Border routers. Basically, every device on the network can be a redundant node in the mesh network. That all sounds really technical, but the result is that you shouldn't have to think about it because just as you start to collect new things in your smart home, they're going to quietly improve your smart home network without you having to do anything.
14:06 Speaker 00 Samsung's SmartThings seems to be invested in this idea.
14:09 Speaker 04 About eighteen months ago, we announced that SmartThings would no longer be making first-party hardware with a real vision of where could hardware be. I think the life of a having simply the device itself as a hub and we've moved beyond that. We just announced at SDC a couple of weeks ago that SmartThings hub capability would be going in some of our televisions and appliances as well. So you're starting to see that actualize.
14:35 Speaker 00 Now, one reason that Matter has the chance to obviate hubs is that a lot of Matter devices are going to use this radio standard called Thread, which you've heard come up a bunch already. Thread has a long history. We actually talked about it on this podcast a couple of weeks ago in our interview with Eero CEO Nick Weaver. Now, Matter can work over Bluetooth to set devices up, and it can use Wi-Fi to communicate if they need to, but both of those radios aren't as good for smart home gadget communications as Thread is. Thread and Matter are different, but they're complementary parts of the whole picture here. I asked Michelle at the Connectivity Standards Alliance how Thread fits into this entire vision.
15:15 Speaker 02 I do think that some of the reasons we've gone with the core radios that we have for both for Wi-Fi and for Thread and Bluetooth for commissioning is because they are particularly common and prevalent. I would say Wi-Fi first and foremost is, dare I say, virtually ubiquitous these days in terms of being able to support that connectivity. Bluetooth, from a commissioning and provisioning perspective, is something that's fairly ubiquitous. And I think what Thread brings is that kind of in-home mesh networking technology, IP-based mesh networking, that really helps with those types of connected-in-the-home situations. So, we believe that this, I guess, starter kit of physical layers is a good package of physical layers for our
15:59 Speaker 02 members and consumers to get the most out of what Matter can bring.
16:03 Speaker 00 Thread is one of those things, and actually Matter too, where I have this split in my brain of, it seems like it's taking too long, that it's taken forever, especially with Thread, but a little bit with Matter. I think the original promises from CHIP were a little bit sooner than what we're going to be getting here. So, I've got that side of my brain, why is it taking so long? And then the other side of my brain understands how standards processes usually go, and it seems like it's moving a lightning quick. From your perspective, do you have that same split, or do you see it on one side or the other?
16:33 Speaker 02 I like that part of your brain.
16:36 Speaker 02 That's right. I mean, it is hard work, right? Let's not make bones about that. It is difficult to bring together hundreds of companies and thousands of engineers and cross more than one standards body, by the way, right? So the CSA is the home for Matter and Thread Group and the WiFi Alliance, you know, are the organizations who manage those kind of physical and networking areas. So it is a complex solution to deliver. So in one sense of the word, it's easy to see how a complex situation like that can take a long time. The thing that I always come back to is the fact that we are building something that's quite breakthrough. And I do believe that in the grand scheme of things,
17:16 Speaker 02 we are moving at a very rapid pace relative to what many other standards organizations and standards of the past have done. And even more so, the thing to remember about whether you think we're going slow or not or going fast is we're not just delivering a paper spec. And that, I think, is part of what makes this work particularly different.
17:41 Speaker 00 Let's get back to my conversation with Jennifer, the Verge's smart home reviewer, because she actually could tell us a little bit more about where Thread came from in the first place.
17:49 Speaker 05 Okay, so Thread came from Nest. Thread came from Nest pre-Google.
17:54 Speaker 00 So the good Nest, the Nest when it made stuff that worked and everybody liked it.
17:57 Speaker 05 Right. So I spoke with Tony Fadell, the founder of Nest, about this. And he explained, you know, originally, when they first put out the first Nest learning thermostat, it had a ZigBee radio in because they envisioned this future where thermostat would need to talk to more devices in the home. And after a while, they started to realize that ZigBee didn't really have what they needed. And so they started to work with Silicon Labs, which is, who is very much involved in Matter, and to develop something more powerful on top of the ZigBee radio. So it is a ZigBee radio, but it has this software layer on top, which is Thread.
18:34 Speaker 00 Right.
18:35 Speaker 05 And then Matter, which now Matter is on top of that. When Nest worked on it, they actually had Weave, which, if you can recall way back when, Weave was what Nest came out with when they introduced Thread. They introduced Thread and they introduced Weave and the entire smart home world went, huh?
18:54 Speaker 00 It's like too many metaphors, too many puns. Why would we like trust you? Yeah.
18:59 Speaker 05 What is this even doing? Why do we care? Why do we need another protocol? You know, we've already got 17 that don't work properly. And why we got one more?
19:07 Speaker 00 Right.
19:07 Speaker 05 So I think it was an uphill climb. And Tony mentioned that he had a lot of people pretty much laugh in his face and say, this is ridiculous. You shouldn't even bother. Why are you doing this? And I asked him, why is it now? Why now has Thread taken off? And he said, his theory is because all of the other smart home companies or ecosystems like Amazon and Apple went out and started to try and make products themselves or make systems themselves for consumers. And they started to get all the feedback that Nest had been getting that these things aren't working. We need this, we need that. So they realized, oh, actually, we do need something like this. We need this universal protocol that is going to work. Communication is the key in the smart home. Everything needs to talk to everything else.
19:50 Speaker 05 And none of the existing protocols were specifically designed for smart home devices to talk to each other. They all had failure points that made it difficult. And Thread fixes all of those.
20:01 Speaker 00 The companies that make smart home gadgets are also excited about Thread because it makes their job simpler. They can just pick the radio that they know works with everything instead of having to bet on an ecosystem like Zigbee or Z-Wave or whatever. Here's Tim from Eve.
20:15 Speaker 03 Thread removes like all of the problems you get with using technologies that are not made for smart devices. We, as a company, we are sort of the minority with having lots of Bluetooth enabled products because you can't use Wi-Fi for like a door and window sensor. That would just drain the battery much quicker than than anyone would like. So the alternative is to use some other protocol and have a bridge. And we never wanted that. So for us, Thread really is a no brainer because you can just use it for everything. It's it's it's low power. It creates a mesh network, but but a unified mesh network that works across different manufacturers.
20:57 Speaker 03 So so you can have an Eve door and window sensor at your door and very far away a home. Pod mini and in between, let's say, a nano leaf bulb and they just extend their network automatically and work together to just create this seamless networking stuff. And I think it aligns perfectly with Matter now because with this IP based world, you now really have the complete story on the transport level, on the language level, application layer, that everything just works and is made with IoT in mind.
21:32 Speaker 00 All right, stepping back a moment, I just have to tell you that right now, I personally am feeling a little bit off kilter. Usually, when we talk about messy technologies and the standards that are supposed to fix them, we end up talking about the problems. But maybe because Matter hasn't launched yet, everybody still seems really excited and there aren't a whole lot of problems to talk about yet. Plus, it is very, very strange to think that Apple and Google and Samsung and Amazon are all working together. I asked Michelle at the CSA about it.
22:10 Speaker 02 It is a challenge, right, to get such a diverse group of companies and players with prospective interests together to create this kind of momentum and change. But I genuinely believe kind of the impetus is, one, a commitment to consumers and creating consumer value, and, two, the notion that, you know, there has to be some trade offs along the way. At a point, each of these small individual enclaves or each of these unique or individual experiences are going to hit a bit of a market wall, the wall of the walled garden, as it were, right? You know, okay, I'm not going to grow anymore. I'm not going to be able to expand beyond these walls. And it could be an ecosystem provider who thinks about that. It could be a device manufacturer who there reigns to one of the ecosystems and realize, you know,
22:55 Speaker 02 if I really want to change the market, if I really want to grow to the market, if I really want to get to that next step or that next level, I have to look at places where I collaborate in different ways. I have to find those places where collaboration actually allows the market to grow, or the pie to expand, or the walled garden to be knocked down. And then everyone will benefit. So. As a manufacturer or an ecosystem provider or a chipset vendor, you have to look at the trade off and say, is growing the market and increasing value more important than keeping my small piece of the pie whole? And I think that's what enlightened companies are doing and why they're participating in matter.
23:39 Speaker 00 You really don't need to read between the lines much there, do you? The walled garden strategy of keeping everybody in separate ecosystems has limited growth for each of these individual companies. I asked Jennifer about this weird friendliness, too.
23:53 Speaker 05 It's consumerism and, you know, they want to sell more products.
23:57 Speaker 00 Yeah.
23:57 Speaker 05 And the smart home has stagnated. There is a lot of early adoption from early adopters like us. But for the masses, the larger consumer market, it's still just too confusing and too complicated. And, you know, we go into a Home Depot or a Lowe's and you buy something and you bring it home and it doesn't work with what you thought it was going to work with. And, you know, there was too much confusion. And in order for the market to push forward, I think the big players realized we have to fix this basic issue of what talks to what in the home and how our home, you know, we used to be able to go buy a light bulb and screw it in and it worked. We need to get back to that stage. We need to be able to buy a light bulb, screw it in, and it should just work with a smart home because that's the future of our homes.
24:42 Speaker 05 Everything is smart now, our phones, our cars, our TVs. Our homes are going to be smart, whether you want them to be or not, honestly. So ultimately, it's because they're going to sell more products if they fix this problem.
24:54 Speaker 00 Right.
24:54 Speaker 05 There is still going to be plenty of competition because matter is just the communication level. Features on top of that and ecosystems and how things work, not how they work together, but how they work are still going to be differentiating factors in the smart home that are going to make you choose to buy from one company over the other company.
25:16 Speaker 00 Okay, we're going to take a break, but when we come back, we're going to finish out the rest of our conversation with Jennifer to find out if matter is really going to work and to find out what we can expect from matter when it comes to security and privacy.
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27:53 Speaker 00 We are back with our Vergecast Tuesday topic-specific episode focused on Matter, the new smart home standard. Even though everything with Matter seems great, there are still a bunch of unanswered questions and technical details that could gum up the works. So let's get to some of those with Jennifer Pattison Tuohy, the smart home reviewer at The Verge. So my understanding is that there's like a base layer of functionality that Matter sets. It's like, we define what the thing is. It's a light bulb, it's a door lock, it's a, you know, whatever it is. And there are certain features that you have to standardize on, turning it on and off, knowing whether it's on and off, knowing what, I don't know, the temperature is or something. There's like a set of things, like a door lock has
28:35 Speaker 00 these components to it. And Matter, you have to do that the Matter way. But then, beyond those features, if you want to do extra stuff, that will still be a thing where different companies are going to be competing on like, extra stuff that their ecosystems or gadgets can do. Is that, is that right?
28:51 Speaker 05 That's the plan right now. I mean, that could change.
28:54 Speaker 00 Right.
28:54 Speaker 05 But yes, the software level, like, that's really where companies are going to be able to differentiate, is in software. Because ultimately, you're still going to control your home using one or other of these ecosystems. So you're going to pick HomeKit, or Alexa, or Google Home, or Samsung SmartThings, or another one. And so they're, they're going to compete on that level from, from the control side of things. But then also, from the hardware side of things, there are going to be different features. For example, with locks, right now, it's just lock and unlock in Matter.
29:25 Speaker 00 Right.
29:25 Speaker 05 But if you want like, the auto unlock, that's a big feature for some devices, that's not part of Matter. It may come, there is something called an access control working group in Matter that is looking at developing those types of things. But right now, it's just going to be a very simple lock and unlock with a Matter controller. So, there's still going to be different experiences. It's not like suddenly the smart home is just going to be homogeneous. It's just that things can communicate with each other. That's really what this is all about.
29:53 Speaker 00 So let's talk about another device type. And you've actually broken some news on this, casting. So I did not realize that the idea that you would be able to get contents playing on a television was going to be part of this spec. So how does this work? And can I never have to try and make AirPlay work again?
30:12 Speaker 05 Yeah, so this is kind of exciting. I um when they announced that televisions were gonna be in the first Matter spec. Originally, I think everyone just assumed they would be as a controller or a border router, which they still can be, but also, and this is sort of spearheaded by Amazon, most likely because they're the ones that don't have a handheld device that you use every day.
30:32 Speaker 00 Right.
30:32 Speaker 05 But also because Fire TV and Amazon Alexa's sort of prime video platform is is such a core part of their business. The concept here is that assuming you have a Matter controller, like your smartphone or a smart speaker, and you have a Matter-enabled app on your TV, you'll be able to cast, and that's a basic Matter spec. So you will be able to send any content from whatever controller you have to your TV.
30:57 Speaker 00 Right.
30:58 Speaker 05 Um you won't need any special casting setup like Chromecast or Apple TV AirPlay or, I don't know what Samsung's is called, but uh yes, so you won't have to worry about that anymore. Everything should just go from one space to the other seamlessly. And that has been a really an area of friction, I think, in the home entertainment right now. It's been really difficult to do to do that well. Um I know my kids with their Oculus are so upset that we can't watch them on TV because we can never get it to work properly. So yes, but it will depend on individual apps and manufacturers allowing it and being Matter-enabled.
31:34 Speaker 00 So this sounds a lot more like the Google Cast model, where instead of like, like you could do some direct stuff with Cast Now, but like AirPlay for a long time, up until AirPlay 2 was, you it takes the thing on your screen and directly like sends it wirelessly to the local thing to to play. But this is more like you've got a controller, you tell the Matter app on the TV, play this URL. Uh and so that's that's much more how Google Cast works. It's sort of handing off str- URLs for streams than it is directly streaming from the device to the thing.
32:04 Speaker 05 Well, you know, I I don't know the exact technical details. I do know that you will be able to control more than just casting. So you'll be able to control volume, you'll be able to control inputs, and you'll be able to control, you know, pausing and fast-forwarding. And it will be based on your streaming device too. So it it can either, it can work with a smart TV or a smart streaming device. So in theory, you won't need to like use Google Chrome on your phone to cast to a Chromecast if you're using an iPhone.
32:32 Speaker 00 Which would be, huh, amazing.
32:35 Speaker 05 Yes, it will make basically making everything easier. That's the ultimate idea here.
32:41 Speaker 00 Well, so this discussion is a perfect example of how I feel about Matter is like very exciting, very hyped. Everyone's like, yep, everything's just gonna work. It's gonna be great. But then you like stop and you're like, but hang on, there are some technical questions here that I don't know, fully know the answer to. And so I feel unsettled because I kind of believe the hype right now. And that's not a normal thing for me to do with tech. Like, help me work through my emotions about like, maybe actually thinking that some of this stuff is actually gonna work.
33:09 Speaker 05 Yeah, I know, I know. I'm kind of, I'm right there with you. I want to be deeply skeptical, but I also want my smart home to work. So I'm excited about that. I think we should be confident and excited about the basic technology. I don't think we should suddenly think everyone is gonna be, it's all kumbaya and the whole smart home is, is this great space. There's still a lot of big questions. The biggest questions in my mind are cameras, because that's such a big space in the smart home. And that's still a ways off. And smart security systems too, we're not really seeing, that space hasn't really come into the, into matter. There's a lot of areas that are, that are key to our homes that are not here yet. And I'm also a bit worried about the
33:51 Speaker 05 companies hedging their bets slightly here. Amazon's just released four or five new products and didn't mention Matter at all. Now, their argument here is, well, it's very hard to build a product for a spec that does not exist, which is a fair point.
34:07 Speaker 00 Sure. But, I mean, this like, this working group has been around since 2019. They like, they're deeply involved. They know what the spec is gonna be. Like, devices are getting tested right now for it, right?
34:19 Speaker 05 Well, but this is the other problem. And this is something that, so Mitch Klein of the Z-Wave Alliance said, you know, protocol politics have existed since the smart home began. And the Zigbee Alliance, which is now CSA, is all about making people talk to each other. But just because you get people into a room to talk to each other does not mean you end up with an agreement. So we've still got that barrier to move through for each different part of the smart home that goes through the Matter specs. And right now, we've got like 10 different devices, but we've got many more that we have to work through. And it could take a while. This is not something that's going to happen overnight, as we can see, because it's already been delayed substantially.
34:58 Speaker 00 So basically, like, the more complicated data privacy wise or politically, a product category is, the longer it might take. So cameras are a perfect example. You mentioned that, like, Ring seems to be MIA with regard to Matter and the CSA. So I'm sure that Ring has a completely different philosophy of what to do with your video data than Apple does with HomeKit, where they want everything local, and they don't even want to know it exists in the first place. So should we just, like, we should be assuming that things that, like, are more complicated are going to take longer, or maybe, like, be become fragmented again with Matter?
35:32 Speaker 05 I think things that involve revenue streams are going to be more complicated. It may not be that the technology is an issue, but figuring out how all of the, you know, how that's going to work in terms of the connection with the consumer and the revenue model. You know, we saw it slightly with the HomeKit Secure Video, and some companies kind of half adopting it because they didn't really want to give up that control. Like Arlo, you can have your HomeKit videos, you can stream through HomeKit, but you can't have the HomeKit Secure Video portion because Arlo still wants you to pay them. I think when it comes to revenue streams, that's where we're going to start seeing some hiccups. And that, yes, we may still see some fragmentation there. But hopefully, they can figure it out.
36:15 Speaker 00 Yeah. The other hypey things that I might want to pierce, there's security. So part of Matter is, like, issuing security updates. But you mentioned Z-Wave Alliance. It sounds like they're the one group that's like, I don't know. And they pointed out one possible security concern here. Can you talk about that a little bit?
36:32 Speaker 05 Yeah. And I've still, I've reached out to Matter for a little bit more clarification on this, or CSA group, for more clarification on this. But because Matter is an IP-based standard, and the Thread and Wi-Fi are IP-based protocols, in theory, each device can, has an open connection to the internet, which gives you much more, I mean, immediately, you're like, hackers. Malware.
36:56 Speaker 00 Well, I'm thinking my printer, like, you know, like, it's like, nope, doom, that's bad. Okay.
37:01 Speaker 05 Yeah. So, but that, you know, and with Z-Wave, it's the opposite. That's why you have a hub, because everything goes through this one hub. And that hub is tightly locked down and secure. And that's how most security systems are built. And that's why this, we may have an issue with porting that. The CSA said to me that actually, you know, we're, we're trying really hard here to work with IP is the future. IP based is going to give us so much more flexibility. We can constantly update, we can constantly provide patches, just like we have with our smartphone. You know, you get a patch every week. I have a feeling that will be the case with a Matter smart home. You will be doing a lot of updates. Well, you won't have to do it, it should automatically do it. But yes, security is a big concern. Security is going to be a concern going forward.
37:43 Speaker 05 But if you want devices to talk to each other, you have to open those channels. And if you lock it down, you're going to lose the communication. So that's the sort of payoff here.
37:52 Speaker 00 Right.
37:52 Speaker 05 The security versus convenience.
37:55 Speaker 00 Well, and if they are genuinely like issuing security updates, and it is genuinely part of the spec, maybe it'll be fine. But that's like, definitely a thing to keep an eye on. The other thing for me, though, is that when I asked Michelle from the CSA or Samantha from Smart Things about privacy, their answers were about security. So here's Michelle's response.
38:13 Speaker 02 The emphasis is on building those incredibly strong security foundations, making sure every device that tries to join the network can be attested and authenticated. That every message that goes across that home network, you know, using Matter is encrypted. That we do support the ability to continue to patch and upgrade, you know, as vulnerabilities are found and resolved, which they will be. That is the world of security, that we're able to enable that through standards for our members.
38:41 Speaker 00 And here's Samantha's response.
38:42 Speaker 04 One of the fundamental charters of Matter is privacy and security.
38:47 Speaker 00 Okay.
38:47 Speaker 04 It is considered pinnacle and one of the core charters of the protocol. Something that is not only discussed, but a commitment from each of these leading companies to ensure that we fulfill that promise to the consumer.
39:00 Speaker 00 So you can see there, they're like, security is at the core of what we do. And I'm like, okay, but privacy and my data, they're like, yep, we're very secure. And it's like, there's a, there's an illusion there that has me troubled, that they're like, Matter has nothing to say about what happens with the actual data, other than it can do local control, but that's not a guarantee that it won't get out somehow.
39:20 Speaker 05 Yeah, no. So because really, privacy isn't their remit. The privacy will still be down to your relationship with the vendor.
39:30 Speaker 00 Right.
39:30 Speaker 05 The privacy is going to be if you're in an Alexa home, you know, with your relationship with Amazon. If you're in a HomeKit home, your relationship with Apple. If you buy a device from a no name brand in China, your relationship with that company, you know, Matter doesn't deal with the software level, which is where the data and the privacy relationship really is going to sit in the smart home. It just deals with the hardware level, really.
39:53 Speaker 00 Great. Wonderful. Okay.
39:55 Speaker 05 That's why they never answer the question.
39:57 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, and it's also like,
39:58 Speaker 05 Because they don't know.
39:59 Speaker 00 Well, they don't know. And yeah, there's no way they could ever get these companies to agree on something like that. It's hard enough to get them to agree on just like basic networking.
40:06 Speaker 05 Right. And also it depends where you live, too. So there's going to be very different rules and regulations based on which country you're in. Although Matter is global, it's not just US. I mean, it's in every country, which almost.
40:18 Speaker 00 Okay. So this thing is supposed to launch next year, but next year is next year, and this year is holiday season, and I want to buy some smart home gadgets. Should I? Or should I wait?
40:29 Speaker 05 So CSA will say, go ahead and buy everything. It's all going to be fine. Everything's going to upgrade. Because they don't want everyone to stop buying stuff right now. And to an extent, I think they're right. I mean, enough of these companies have gotten on board and said, we are going to upgrade these things to Matter. So, you know, Amazon said all its Alexa speakers will be Matter enabled. We know that there are Thread radios in the HomePod minis, and there are many devices you can feel comfortable with. There are a few categories I would hold off on, as we've already discussed, if you're thinking Matter is the way you want to go with your smart home. Cameras and security systems, for one. Anything you already have, you know, that you've had for a long time, and you're thinking about upgrading, I'd wait.
41:14 Speaker 05 Because there's a chance what you have may still may be upgradable. And if it's not, then wait and buy the new one. Once you know for sure what's going to work.
41:21 Speaker 00 Got it.
41:21 Speaker 05 It's it is a difficult time to be making big decisions. But if you're talking like smart speakers, sensors, you know, what's the things that are in the main? The first sort of rollout, you should feel pretty comfortable about buying new devices this Christmas.
41:34 Speaker 00 OK, I completely disagree. I think never like I said, no, I say every every time it comes up. Never buy hardware today based on the promise of a software update tomorrow. If you want to buy something because you know it works today and it does what you want today, that probably won't break once Matter comes out. It might not work with the beautiful Matter system in the future, but don't, don't. Just only buy it if it works today.
41:56 Speaker 05 Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, if you want something, if you have a need right now, buy what's going to work for you today. I totally agree with that.
42:04 Speaker 00 OK, so this thing is launching sometime mid 2022. What do you think this launch is going to look like? Is it going to be like a press release saying the spec exists? Developers can make stuff and there's a Nano Leaf you can buy.
42:16 Speaker 00 Or is it going to be here are 6,000 smart home gadgets that all work together in a beautiful kumbaya future? Bam, go to Best Buy, get in line like what on that spectrum? Where do you think we're going to get?
42:28 Speaker 05 It'll be like Apple iPhone 5 sale day. We'll all be queuing outside Best Buy.
42:34 Speaker 00 For smart light bulbs.
42:35 Speaker 05 I think it will be a slow rollout. I spoke with Eve, you spoke with them. They have, you know, they have a plan like they already have Thread radios and all their devices. And they're, you know, staggering the rollout. So I think you'll see as the initial, the devices that are in the initial spec, those will come out pretty quickly. They've already got hundreds of devices that are being tested and going through the process, even though they don't have a spec, which confuses me slightly.
43:01 Speaker 05 But, you know, they, I think is they just don't have the final spec that so they're still tweaking things. But yeah, I think it'll be a slow process, starting probably around summer. And sort of looking like early June will be when we'll see that the new, most of the new ones starting to appear. And then, you know, every couple of months, I think we'll be seeing new devices come onto the market as the spec gets updated.
43:22 Speaker 00 Yeah.
43:23 Speaker 05 Next Black Friday is going to be huge.
43:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, for sure. I suspect that Apple and Google in particular are eager to have some sort of official launch around or right before their standard developer conferences.
43:36 Speaker 05 Yes.
43:36 Speaker 00 Because I guarantee you they both want it WWDC and Google I/O to be like, and by the way, the smart home doesn't suck now. So I'm sure that that's something to look forward to.
43:45 Speaker 05 Yeah. And, you know, to your point, the smart home isn't about, it shouldn't be about building one smart home all in one go. I mean, as things stop working in your home and you need something, you have to fill a need, it's always worth considering the smart version. I know you're deeply skeptical, but anything that you buy today from a trusted brand who has committed to Matter, if Matter goes forward, I do think you're going to find that it will work in that future.
44:12 Speaker 00 Except for the Amazon division of Ring. The rest of Amazon, cool, but Ring, we don't know yet. This is basically-
44:17 Speaker 05 We don't know about Ring.
44:18 Speaker 00 Yeah. Okay. Well, the other thing to look forward to is watching you have to review the hundreds of smart home gadgets that are coming out next year. Enjoy, have fun. I will, I'll pitch in every now, I'll pitch in on door locks. That's the one thing that where my life sucks right now.
44:35 Speaker 05 We will find you a good door lock, I'm sure. No, it's gonna be fun. There's lots to look forward to.
44:42 Speaker 00 All right, cool. Well, thanks so much for chatting.
44:44 Speaker 05 Great. Thanks.
44:47 Speaker 00 So that is Matter. And next year, we should see that big splashy launch that I'm actually optimistic about. Look at that. A discussion about tech standards that ends with hope. Also with a million things for Jennifer to review. Sorry, Jennifer. But thank you to her for coming on The Vergecast and explaining it all to us. Thanks also to Michelle Mandala Freeman from the CSA, Samantha Fine from SmartThings, and Tim Boot from E for speaking with us. The Vergecast is produced by myself, Andrew Marino, and Liam James. This is the last of our run of Tuesday topic-specific episodes, but we'd really like to know what you think. And if you'd like us to bring them back next year, you can tweet at me, I'm at Backlon, and my email is [email protected] . We'll be
45:31 Speaker 00 back on Friday with the regular Vergecast chat show. And then after that, you know, I bet you can expect to see a bunch more Matter news at CES in January, which is happening again to all of us together.
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