Pod Insights The Vergecast Pirate Radio » Dial up! About this episode How the Hmong diaspora uses the world's most boring technology to make something weird and wonderful.
Episode two of The Verge's Pirate Radio mini-series featuring Mia Sato.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript 3,825 words · 16 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Company spend can be complicated. Managing it shouldn't be. Amex Corporate connects cards, expenses, and payments all in one place. That's less time managing work and more time doing work that matters. Built to simplify, designed to scale. This is Amex Corporate. Get started at go.amex/ammexcorporate. Terms apply.
0:28 Speaker 01 Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most accurate heart rate sensing in wearable. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, can tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. The features described are for wellness purposes only and not for medical use. iPhone 11 or later required. Based on Apple conducted study of heart rate accuracy, August 2026. Visit apple.com/applewatchseries12.
0:57 Nilay Patel? Hey, everybody. It's Sean from The Vergecast. For the next week or so, we're actually running a mini-series on the feed called Pirate Radio. It's three stories about how pirate radio continues to grow and exist. We already ran a story earlier called Outside the Wire about the United States propaganda efforts in Afghanistan. I'm here with Kevin Nguyen, our features editor. What are we doing today?
1:15 Speaker 03 The story's called Dial Up. It's about the Hmong people in the Midwest and the very unconventional ways they run their pirate radio stations.
1:22 Nilay Patel? Very cool. Here we go.
1:24 Speaker 03 I'm Kevin Nguyen, features editor at The Verge. One thing about having your email address listed on a website is that you get a lot of email. I get dozens of pitches a week, but sometimes, in that deluge of mail, you find something really special. Like, there's this time I got this one subject line, "How One Asian Diaspora Is Reimagining the Conference Line." Actually, that's a terrible subject line. Hey! Sorry, just being honest. By the way, this is Mia Sato. She's a freelance writer based in Chicago, and she's the one responsible for this very bad subject line. Hello. Anyway, I opened the email, and Mia had outlined a story about how Hmong people had, for years, been using conference call lines, the most dreadfully boring technology that exists, to make something really weird and really quite wonderful.
2:09 Speaker 04 There are 20 calls.
2:12 Speaker 05 What are we listening to?
2:16 Speaker 04 So that was just a little bit of a radio show.
2:20 Speaker 03 But it kind of sounded like we were, it sounded like there were 23 listeners. Like, it kind of reminded me of like being in a conference call meeting.
2:27 Speaker 04 Well, you were.
2:29 Speaker 04 This is a really interesting kind of radio show. For one, that language you were hearing was Hmong. The Hmong people are a small ethnic group. There's just under 300,000 of them in the United States. And what makes it so interesting is that these shows, of which there are many, are all run through free conference call software.
3:09 Speaker 03 And do you speak Hmong?
3:11 Speaker 04 Not a lick.
3:15 Speaker 03 So wait, how did you even find these conference call radio stations?
3:19 Speaker 04 So I am from Wisconsin, and I think that automatically separates me from a lot of Americans in that I know who the Hmong people are. I grew up around Hmong folks. I grew up around their culture and their arts and their language. And I knew that they had really specific news needs.
3:37 Speaker 03 And that's because there's just like not a lot of media that's written in Hmong, right?
3:40 Speaker 04 Right, yeah. And the Hmong language has a very relatively short history in its written form also. They didn't have a written form of their language until about the 1950s. So when I was an intern at the Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism, I wanted to know like how they got their news. And I wasn't really getting satisfactory answers. They said that newspapers, you know, aren't really too popular. They have like Facebook groups and things like that. And then, super offhandedly, a source I was talking to mentioned the telephone radio shows. And I had no idea what he was talking about.
4:20 Speaker 04 Once I found out about these lines, naturally, I went to do research to see if anyone else knew about this. And lo and behold, a former professor of mine had authored a whole paper and was and currently is working on a book on Hmong media.
4:35 Speaker 06 My name is Lori Kito Lopez, and I'm an assistant professor of Communication Arts at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. My research is on different forms of Asian-American media. And for my research in Wisconsin, I've been looking at Hmong-American media.
4:51 Speaker 04 This was totally new to me. And so I sat down with her, read her research. And she had been doing extensive studies and interviews with folks, Hmong folks around the state, trying to figure out what these lines were and how they played into Hmong-American culture.
5:07 Speaker 06 So basically, these are 24/7 radio stations that Hmong-American people tune into just using their cellphones. So they have a conference call, and it just runs all day and all night, every day of the week. And it's set up pretty much like a radio station, where they have a host who is assigned to facilitate conversation about a certain topic every hour of the day. And they stay on a schedule so that they can know what they're going to listen to, whether it's going to be conversation about health, or Hmong culture, or religion, or just storytelling, or maybe singing traditional songs. I would say it's the most popular form of mass media in the Hmong-American community.
5:50 Speaker 04 Right off the bat, she said she is not aware of any other media forms like this, or people using this technology in this way. But that said, there are elements to this format that are similar in some ways to more mainstream media forms. So like, it's like podcasts or normal radio in that you use your voice to communicate to your community. But it's also kind of like citizen journalism in media, because it's participatory. So people don't just call in, they also speak back to the host. But then, that kind of sounds like a chatroom. So it's all over the place, and it's also not bound by geography. So as long as you have the phone number, you can call in from anywhere.
6:28 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think the cool thing about it is that it's not necessarily illicit, but it is kind of like a form of pirate radio, right? Like, it exists to speak to a marginalized community that doesn't often get spoken to, and in this case, literally, in Hmong. And then it uses a technology in a way that it's not supposed to be used. You know, it's kind of subversive in that way.
6:50 Speaker 04 Yeah, absolutely. And it's really on their own terms. So there's a lot of agency that's given to hosts and owners of the lines, where if you were a Hmong person and you wanted your own line tomorrow, you could figure it out, right? And you could do it. And you could find hosts amongst your friends or families and be like, "Do you want to have the Thursday at 5:00 PM slot? You can talk about whatever." So it's very led and shaped by the community for the community.
7:25 Speaker 03 So why do you think the conference call radio shows work specifically for Hmong people? It sounds like, at least according to Professor Lopez, that no one else is doing this.
7:35 Speaker 04 Yeah, it's a really complicated question, and it has a lot of layers to it. So even within the Hmong community, it isn't for everyone. It seems like it's a lot less popular for people, say, my age, second or third generation Hmong Americans. And the community isn't monolithic, so opinions are divided, to say the least. So I would say it's hard to pin down just one reason why this format works for them, but Professor Lopez does have some ideas.
8:02 Speaker 06 So first, I would say that it just being an oral medium is really resonant for Hmong American people. So they have a rich oral culture, where singing songs and telling stories and communicating orally is really important. And also, there's a history of older Hmong people not being literate necessarily in English or Hmong language. And so if people's lives were really disrupted by the war, then they often didn't get to learn how to read and write. So then they come to the US, and they have a history of really communicating well orally and having a need to really listen to stories and tell stories. But then I also think that it being on their cellphones is also what made it really take off as a mass medium.
8:47 Speaker 06 So then, just having a cellphone, they can just turn it on, call the number, and tune in.
8:52 Speaker 04 So you can see the rise of these programs is really complex. And there's a mix of technological changes, wider accessibility to technology, and maybe just a few people with a really clever idea that others eventually latched on to. But I think to really understand why people are so active on these lines, you need to also understand the history of how the Hmong people came to the United States. The Hmong are an ethnic minority with origins in China and then later Southeast Asian countries like Laos, Vietnam, Thailand, and they've experienced persecution for hundreds of years. Even before I began reporting this story, I heard Hmong people refer to themselves as
9:37 Speaker 04 "a people without their own country." That's because they were forced to flee violence and oppressive rule over and over again. In the 1960s, United States forces recruited Hmong in Laos to help resist the spread of communism in Southeast Asia, and that conflict is called the Secret War.
9:55 Speaker 07 Hmong soldiers ran spy missions deep inside enemy territory, even entering China to tap telephone lines there for the CIA.
10:03 Speaker 04 During that, tens of thousands of Hmong men and boys were killed in combat, in addition to about 50,000 Hmong civilians killed.
10:10 Speaker 07 Their casualty rate was 100 times higher than that of the United States in Vietnam.
10:18 Speaker 04 In the years following the conflict, hundreds of thousands of Hmong people were essentially scattered around the world, and some Hmong who left their homelands came to the United States, where they settled mostly in California, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. There are some Hmong people in France and Australia, but the vast majority still live in Asia. So if you're a Hmong American and you don't live in an enclave like St. Paul, or Fresno, or Sacramento, or Milwaukee, it's likely pretty normal to not encounter another Hmong person in your day-to-day life. Basically, you have this diasporic community that is all over the world with a rich oral culture and innovative, easy-to-access, semi-digital spaces that they've basically made for themselves, and they've been doing this for years.
11:21 Speaker 08 This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an Ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.
11:48 Speaker 09 Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them? That's bull spend. And marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.
11:59 Speaker 10 I remember telling my boss, "It'll be good for the brand," when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't.
12:06 Speaker 09 Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.
12:19 Speaker 03 So you talked to some of these DJs, right?
12:22 Speaker 04 I did, yes.
12:24 Speaker 03 And like, I guess what is it like to run one of these lines?
12:26 Speaker 04 So, these people are really invested in them, and they spend a lot of time running them, organizing them, keeping things running smoothly. And many of the hosts and callers I spoke to also described really meaningful friendships they've formed through the lines. The same way that you and I might talk about internet friends who you know in some sort of removed or isolated context, but you might never meet them in real life. But that said, they're still your friend and you still share part of your life with them. One person connected to the lines that I spoke to was Mi Vang. She is 53, she lives in St. Paul, Minnesota, and she is prolific and beloved by her listeners.
13:09 Speaker 11 I don't have time to volunteer outside of home to my community. And by hosting my own show in the telephone conference, that's my community work to my people. That's my volunteer work to my community.
13:22 Speaker 04 She hosted shows for about a decade. Earlier this year, she finally quit hosting. She got too busy with other things. But her shows mostly focused on relationships, personal growth, and especially cooking.
13:34 Speaker 11 Teaching people cooking on air. So they would come and listen to me and then they can go home, take my recipe and cook at their home. And I also talked about multiple subjects of self-improvement, ranging from helping different children or being a mother or romantic relationships or any kind of relationship with people or just keeping out of your house, cleaning, anything self-improvement I talked about on air.
13:59 Speaker 04 Listeners loved her cooking shows. She said that throughout the years, they've sent her all sorts of gifts in the mail after hearing her talk through recipes on air. And they would send her like dry foods and kitchen utensils, like pasta machines and traditional Hmong accessories. And one even sent her money when her son graduated high school, which I thought was really funny. Wow, that's amazing.
14:22 Speaker 11 Hmong people traditionally were not as open talking about relationships in general or romantic relationships in general. And romantic relationships is a topic that I'm very passionate about. So I was amazed when I first called in and talked to them. I was amazed how much we have changed and able to discuss such topics publicly, openly.
14:48 Speaker 04 One of the stories of hers that stuck with me the most was about Mother's Day and Father's Day on the lines.
14:54 Speaker 11 Mother's Day, Father's Day celebration. We didn't have those back in Laos.
15:00 Speaker 04 Hmong culture traditionally doesn't have many holidays and Mother's Day and Father's Day were something that Hmong refugees new to the United States had to learn when they first came here. So the idea of having a holiday dedicated to outwardly expressing love and gratitude to your parents was a new thing for them.
15:18 Speaker 11 We did not have a social opportunity to appreciate our mom and dad. And then they die and then this telephone conference become available. And we have the chance to socially let the world know how we feel about our mom and dad.
15:34 Speaker 04 A lot of Hmong folks that I spoke to, they were like, we never said, like, I love you. We showed our love through actions and by being, you know, good children. And our parents showed their love through taking care of us. But that verbal exchange was just not part of their traditional culture.
15:54 Speaker 11 The first few seasons, people were just crying, crying while they delivered their message to their mom or dad on Mother's Day and Father's Day.
16:03 Speaker 04 And back in June, right around Father's Day, I got the chance to hear what she was talking about. So it's a Friday before Father's Day, and I call in right at 6:00 PM. The show is supposed to go from 6:00 to 8:00. There are about 20 callers on the line when I initially call in, and they're all there to listen and share what Father's Day means to them, or tell stories about their dad.
16:28 Speaker 11 Okay, Mia, are you here? If you're here, so you come and say hello to everybody.
16:34 Speaker 04 Look, you are now unmuted.
16:35 Speaker 11 Hello?
16:36 Speaker 04 So I introduce myself on the line, let them know who I am and what I'm doing. And they know that I don't speak Hmong. So a few of the callers on the line spoke English and translated for me here and there, or shared their stories about their dad in English.
16:51 Speaker 12 I would like to talk about my father. So because Father's Day is this Sunday.
16:59 Speaker 04 One woman by talked about this being her first Father's Day after her dad died last fall.
17:05 Speaker 12 For us that doesn't have a father anymore, when that day comes, you don't know where to go. So you could go to the cemetery and bring him flowers, but it's not, it's not like when he is here that you can see him and talk to him, or even just be here visiting him. So to me, Father's Day is a day that I do cherish and I will always remember, even though he's no longer here. I think that I'll remember, I'll remember his smile, his face.
17:44 Speaker 12 And his love, so Father's Day is very, very important to me. And I am very happy that I am here in this country and that I'm able to share and I'm able to celebrate and just share this special occasion of Father's Day with my family.
18:02 Speaker 04 That stuck with me, and I think it's because it exemplifies so much of why I find these lines to be really special and incredible. It seems like a lot of Mongolian cultural evolution happened and continues to happen on these lines. I think it's sort of amazing that people like me, Vang, got to watch that happen in real time within her community on the lines. And Mother's Day and Father's Day are just two examples of that cultural evolution and change. When I initially called into the line, I thought I would just be kind of in the background listening and recording. I had it like on speakerphone on my cellphone in my kitchen while I was making dinner. But about halfway through the call, just when I thought the callers had forgotten
18:46 Speaker 04 I was there, they invited me to join, first asking me to talk about my own father and then asking me questions about myself.
18:54 Speaker 12 Yeah. Can you share some of your--
18:58 Speaker 04 You are now unmuted.
18:59 Speaker 12 --experience with your father with us two, since we're all talking and you're not just listening?
19:04 Speaker 04 Sure.
19:05 Speaker 12 Can you share some of your experience with your father?
19:07 Speaker 04 Yes, I would love to.
19:08 Speaker 03 So you've been researching this story for months, and then this is the first time you've spoken on it. Did something kind of like crack open for you once you kind of had a firsthand experience?
19:18 Speaker 04 Yeah, I felt really grateful. The whole process of reporting this story, I was and still am an outsider to this community. And so they were really welcoming. I'd called in and listened for research many times to this line, but I had never actually spoken on the lines before. I had never been unmuted, so I was pretty nervous. So my father is from Japan and--
19:48 Speaker 13 My parents met when my father came to Wisconsin for school, um, for college. And so my mom is American from Wisconsin and my dad is Japanese. And they come from two completely different cultures and worlds. You know, I love my father. He's still alive. I'm really thankful. Um, and one thing that is hard, though, is, for instance, I won't be able to see him this Father's Day because my dad lives in Japan, actually.
20:19 Speaker 04 You never hear English on these lines. And here, these people were like translating for like the girl who doesn't speak Hmong, who is for some reason interested in what we're doing here. It was really kind and really just a wonderful moment. And I even halfway through the show, they were like, hey, Mia, like, some of our normal callers, they don't speak English very well and they don't know what you're saying. So we're going to switch all to Hmong now. Is that OK? And I'm like, oh, my God, like, I am an intruder here. Like, you do what you need to do. It is totally OK. But they opened their space that they created for themselves to an outsider. And they expressed how happy they were that I was, that I joined them that day and shared with them that day.
21:01 Speaker 04 So it felt really rewarding and I felt really humbled to be there.
21:07 Speaker 05 You are welcome here anytime now. You are the Hmong sister now.
21:10 Speaker 04 OK.
21:12 Speaker 05 All you need to do, just learn Hmong that you can come enjoy us. I'm going to give you a program that you can hold.
21:22 Speaker 04 Ms. Lee, the woman who owns the line I called into, sees what she's doing by owning and operating a line as a form of community service for the Hmong people. She talks a lot about wanting to do this despite being busy because she cares about the people on the other end of the line and not just on Father's Day. For many Hmong people, this is part of everyday life.
21:41 Speaker 05 I mean, I'm just happy that, you know, in America, we have something like this that it doesn't matter where we are, we all can stay in touch. We can learn from each other. And it's a way of making friends, it's a way of changing people's lives through the Hmong Conference. That's all I, I know.
22:10 Speaker 03 This special episode of Vergecast Pirate Radio was made by Mia Sato, Andrew Marino, and Kevin Nguyen. Fact check done by Maya Hibbett. Special thanks to BAM Studios in Chicago for letting us record, and a shout out to Neelai Patel, Verge EIC, for letting us, in the spirit of Pirate Radio, hijack Vergecast.
22:36 Speaker 14 USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks, or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com/bundle. Restrictions apply.
22:51 Speaker 15 New and exclusive holiday decor just launched online at The Home Depot. Check out the viral Grand Duchess Collection with smart holiday lights you can control from your phone. Easily customize the twinkle across trees, wreaths, and garlands to match your holiday vibe.
23:09 Speaker 15 Create stunning light effects, then switch it up with the tap of your fingers. Even the man in red will be impressed. Shop the holiday decor you want, online only, at homedepot.com.
Previous Pirate Radio » Outside the wire Next Pirate Radio » The PIRATE Act Page updated October 14, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
