Pod Insights The Vergecast Google AMP’s Malte Ubl wants to make the mobile web better About this episode You may not have heard of Google AMP (Accelerated Mobile Pages) but you almost certainly have used it. The Google open-source project has been making waves since it launched in 2016 in an effort to make the mobile web faster to load and smoother to navigate. This week, Nilay sat down with Malte Ubl, creator and tech lead of AMP, to talk about the controversy of bifurcating the web, forming a technical steering committee to co-lead the project, and Ubl’s vision for the future of the mobile web.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:29 Nilay Patel? Hey, everybody. It's Neelai from The Vergecast. This week's Vergecast interview is with Malte Ubel, who is the head of AMP at Google. AMP is the accelerated mobile project at Google. You might not have heard it before, but you've definitely seen it. If you click a link on Twitter, you almost always load an AMP story. If you click a Verge link on Twitter, you'll load an AMP version of our website. It's a cut-down version of the web that's being led by Google. It's hugely controversial because it's kind of forked the web, and up until now, Google has been in charge of it. In fact, Malte has been in charge of it. He's been the, literally, the benevolent dictator for life of the AMP project and how it's technically implemented. That's all changing, though. Google is changing how AMP is run. Malte is no longer going to be the benevolent dictator for life.
1:12 Nilay Patel? They're starting a technical steering committee, and they're trying very hard to make AMP a better citizen on the web. That's what we talked about. We talked about some of the controversy. We talked about the future of AMP, and we talked a lot about the future of the web, which, for Vergecast listeners now, is something that interests us a whole lot. Check it out. Here's Malte Ubl from Google.
1:32 Nilay Patel? Hey, so we have Malte Ubl, who is the engineering lead for AMP at Google. Thank you for joining us, Malte.
1:37 Speaker 01 Thanks so much for having me.
1:39 Nilay Patel? Well, you and I have been tweeting at each other. You've been tweeting with Dieter. I feel like Dieter and I are the people who care most about AMP in sort of the broader tech press, because we really care about the web. And we've had some very friendly interactions. But very quickly, explain what AMP is and what the goals of AMP were, because it is more controversial than you would expect.
1:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, so like, there's many ways to talk about AMP. The technical description maybe is it's a JavaScript library and a web component ecosystem. What it kind of makes it unique, it tries to democratize good outcomes for websites. So you don't need like the fanciest consultant or read like 5,000 blog posts. You just, you know, do what AMP tells you and we kind of promise you that what you will do at the end creates something that's good from a performance perspective and user experience. It supports instant loading, so you can like have something like Google search, you click a link and then it just boop. It just pops up as opposed to like having a loading sequence over many seconds.
2:34 Nilay Patel? That's a big thing to unpack. We can get right into it there on the weeds and then we can zoom out a little bit. But it supports instant loading and there was a little bit of news yesterday. But it supports instant loading because Google caches the content, right? So you search for something, you see the Verge result, we support AMP. You see the Verge result on Google, you click the link and you actually go to a google.com/theverge/whatever page or URL because Google has cached it.
3:02 Speaker 01 That's at least how it works when you're on a, on the Google search website as opposed to one of the native apps. So the, the, the Google has a so-called AMP cache. There's a few more of those out in the world, but they play an important role in this instant loading part. And for a reason that not, isn't entirely obvious. The actual reason is that there's a privacy issue with instant loading. So on a normal website, to get it instant loaded, I need to download its resources before the user actually clicks, right? Because when you click, then you have to go to network, network is slow, it's not instant, right? So you have to load it before the user clicks. And it's not cool if you like search for, you know, some illness and you really want to just know what it is.
3:44 Speaker 01 But like the first result kind of gets, you know, preloaded and now they know you, you think you have the illness and they sent you like ads all over the web. We want to avoid this. So that's why this initial load sequence comes from the Google AMP cache. We kind of control the delivery and we can control the privacy aspects of it. And so we can have what I call privacy preserving instant loading. And kind of bring this instant effect together with something that meets user expectation in terms of privacy.
4:09 Nilay Patel? So for example, if you're using Twitter and you click a link, Twitter opens AMP pages, right?
4:14 Speaker 01 Right.
4:14 Nilay Patel? Are they doing the same preloading as you scroll through Twitter?
4:17 Speaker 01 They don't and they, so they don't use an AMP cache.
4:20 Nilay Patel? Okay. And then yesterday, the news was that Bing is now supporting AMP, and they have their own AMP cache. So if you click a Bing link, you'll see Bing.com/whatever.
4:28 Speaker 01 Exactly. So Bing has actually also used AMP for like actually quite a while, but only like I think their new native app. I know they rolled it up out to their main search product, and they built their own AMP cache. There's another one from CloudFlare. People aren't familiar to one of the biggest content delivery networks in the world. They have built one also a couple of years ago, and it's available for platforms to use kind of more as a service you could purchase from CloudFlare.
4:53 Nilay Patel? One of the most controversial parts of AMP is that when you click on the link from Google Search, you end up at a Google.com URL instead of the URL of the site that you thought you were going to. And I know you have wanted to change this for some time. What are the challenges with changing it, and how soon do you think you'll change it?
5:10 Speaker 01 It's been a bit of a journey, because we all agree that this isn't an ideal situation. And so we have like multiple strategies going on at the same time, and they land at the same time. The first thing we did was just pull the link of like the real URL, right? This was the thing we could do like basically in like a week. Then we talked to browser vendors, Apple's and Chrome in particular, and told them, hey, you have this share button. Wouldn't it be nice if you like shared the real URL? And they were like, yeah, that kind of makes sense. And they actually did it in a way that's great for the entire web. So you might have not noticed this, but if you're like on a website and it's a stupid URL with all kind of tracking stuff in the URL, if you share it, that goes away because now she has to canonical URLs. So I think it was a generally good change. Another thing we did is in our native apps,
5:54 Speaker 01 where we can actually control the display of the URL, we updated this, so it shows us the right format. And then finally, we're working on a technology called web packaging that has been in development actually for a few years. And we kind of sought and figured out, okay, this is actually exactly what we need. With that, you'll be able to kind of get the best of both worlds, where you can get this privacy preserving instant loading through infrastructure that's trusted, but then through the integrity guarantees of HTTPS, it can be proven by the browser that this content actually, for example, came from NewYorkTimes.com, and then they show it as NewYorkTimes.com. And I think that's kind of our desired end state. I think the progress on that is that we announced January that we're gonna do it.
6:37 Speaker 01 We started working on it together with a Chrome team. At that time, we had already kind of a prototype. Then at I O this year, showed everything kind of working end to end from Google Search up to real websites from Pinterest and Food Network. But certain things were not really production code and we didn't like support the final version of the standard yet. And so now people are working on getting everything tied up so that we can like actually launch it to as a user facing product. The main challenge I think there is that this will initially launch, if at all, because web standards are complicated and take a long time. But it'll be implemented in Chrome, right? And we very much care about other browsers. So like I obviously can't give you any form of timeline, how long that'll take.
7:21 Speaker 01 But we'll definitely do everything we can to make it go as fast as possible.
7:25 Nilay Patel? There's some news about AMP that I want to talk about, which is that you're changing how it's being run as a project. And so right now, you're the engineering lead for AMP. You're in charge of AMP. You are the person who makes all the decisions about implementation. But you're you're changing that, right?
7:40 Speaker 01 Right. That's also literally what we wrote and like how it works. But in practice, of course, things are different, right? So we're not changing that much, but we we change how it officially works. Like in every company, you have delegation, right? So while in theory, you know, Sundar makes every decision at Google, right? In practice, that's obviously not how it works. And that's also not how it worked for AMP. So we've from the start had a very open and inclusive culture of how we run the project. But it's very important in the end to recognize that it really matters how decisions are made at the top and you know, when there's disagreement. And so we're updating that called governance of of how the project works. But it very much is in spirit of of how we always thought about the the project.
8:23 Nilay Patel? So the way you're changing it is you're basically forming committees, right? You're forming a technical steering committee, a committee that advocates for the open web, right? Like the big criticism of AMP is that it has bifurcated the web. There are regular mobile web pages and there are AMP pages. Do you think the new governance model will resolve that conflict? Will it make that conflict easier to manage? Will it make it worse? How are you expecting to handle that?
8:47 Speaker 01 I think that this is a topic we've always cared a lot about. And I I could go into like massive depth there. What we, when you need to ensure and where would be really helpful to have people who think about it in a positive, but like essentially different perspective to kind of to make these points clear. So if you think about how other like instant loading formats work, you literally like publish to, you know, some entity and then it's like with them and it's definitely not on the web. And for AMP, we really, we try to make it so like there, there is no way to like publish an AMP document to Google. Like sometimes people ask me like, how do you publish an AMP document to Google? And I said, like, you can't, you just put it on your app server. And it has to be there and it's accessible there.
9:30 Speaker 01 And as, as we discussed earlier, Twitter is using it like that, right? So we very much cared, it has to be on the web, it cannot be not on the web. And you mentioned this other somewhat controversial technique that I'm actually very much think was right, which was that we allowed people to say, I have an AMP version of a document. That was, the alternative would have been to say like, hey, you need to rewrite your website. You know, and people were like, maybe that's not such a good idea. Maybe I just did that and I don't want to, right? And so I think it was important for, for the success of the format to have a way for people to say, look, I'm just gonna try it out for a few pages and put it to the site. And obviously at some point they will say like, now I have to maintain two things. And that's, you know, maybe not the most pleasant situation, but you at least mitigated the risk of like a full rewrite.
10:14 Nilay Patel? So when I talk to people who make websites, they say, well, does Google want us to develop AMP first? Right, is the power of AMP is such that the pages are much faster. It seems as though Google search tends to prefer AMP pages. That's a question I want to get into, but it seems that way. And if you want to build big, rich mobile web experiences, they probably don't conform to the more limited set of AMP things. So the real question is, Are you looking at a world in which AMP is the sort of primary format for people with the secondary mobile web stuff? Or are you hoping that with the new governance model, it can be more open and you'll actually see more convergence between the regular web and AMP?
10:54 Speaker 01 I think I see most of those things. And they don't usually actually run against each other. And I don't really think that the governance model per se has so much to do with this. So when we say AMP first, I want to just make really clear what we mean. I just talked how you can put something on the site. And some people realize, okay, this is actually, actually really nice. And I want to make it so that this is how I run my website. And so we say very much, this is now something that's supported. Three years ago, AMP was like 10 weeks old and no, you should probably not have used it for your website as the primary technology, right? And that certainly has changed. And also, yes, three years ago AMP was like very much focused on use. You could like put images on a page and make a headline and, you know, put some ads.
11:39 Speaker 01 We've come from there to like, for example, AliExpress being one of the largest ecommerce sites in the world, use it for their website, right? And so the limitations, the perceived limitations are effectively eliminated in many ways. And so it's a production-ready technology that you can use for your website, but there's also thousands of reasons to not do that. I'm like very much also in favor of like having technology and say it's great for certain things and it's not great for other things. And AMP is very much good for certain types of experience on the web and not great for others. So I do not think everyone should use it, but it's an option. And so that's one thing. The second part of your question was like, should the web develop as well and like be at skill as good at the same things that AMP is good at?
12:23 Speaker 01 It's always a difficult conversation because AMP is part of the web. But like, we're definitely working on a lot of proposals for the web platform to like bring some of the things that we learned to the web platform, right? And that's basically happening at the same time. And there is no zero-sum game going on, basically. Because, I mean, definitely from Google's point of view, every time the web gets better, that's certainly great for us because that creates more good pages that users can find in our search engine, which in the end is what matters.
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13:37 Nilay Patel? So let's talk about search. I think that's really interesting. The big incentive for a publisher like The Verge, or Vox Media, or The New York Times, or whoever, to adopt AMP is that it appeared to us that if we make AMP pages, we'll get ranked higher in search. You guys have always sort of denied this. You've said, "It's just, speed is one of many criteria, and AMP pages are really fast." But if you make AMP richer, if you open the governance model, if people are able to add more stuff to AMP, is that gonna change the dynamic of how things are ranked in search?
14:08 Speaker 01 No, I don't think so. I think what's really interesting is, we announced this like in early this year, January timeframe, and then launched it in July, a new iteration on actually ranking by speed. And it's focused on mobile, and also like, using modern technologies that are better at actually measuring this. So I think it's a big step, but it's a technology-independent step. So to do well on this ranking factor, you have to make a fast website, but it doesn't matter how you build it. And so I think it continues to be the case that we don't consider AMP a ranking factor. And I don't really see at all this is changing anytime soon. I'm certainly not a ranking engineer, and I don't even talk to these people much, but
14:52 Speaker 01 it's like, not the way we think about it, right? The way we think about it is, we want to rank good websites as high as possible.
14:58 Nilay Patel? And it just so happens that all the good websites pick AMP.
15:00 Speaker 01 If you look at the distribution of AMP pages, we obviously started in the news space, and we have a product on the mobile web that's exclusive to AMP called the Top Stories Carousel. And so that's a good chunk of AMP pages, but the vast majority of AMP pages do not fall in the category of being eligible to the top stories carousel because they're not news pages. So Pinterest, for example, is a heavy user of AMP. So is Reddit and I mentioned AliExpress and ecommerce space before overstock.com. There's many of these. So this very specific product of the top stories carousel, which is news specific, isn't present there. So there's nothing like it that they could take into consideration that would influence the publishing format,
15:43 Speaker 01 except that they found it's a it's a really nice way to in the end increase conversions because you you kind of ease out that funnel current from search by not, for example, waiting 20 seconds of wait on a point click.
15:54 Nilay Patel? Right. So just to put some context, you mentioned other instant loading formats. The one that immediately comes to mind is Facebook instant articles, which came and went, basically. It didn't succeed. And you know, I think it didn't succeed for the reasons that you are describing, which is it wasn't part of the web. It was really, it was hard to develop for. It didn't seem like it was moving. Eventually, Facebook, through its travails, decided that news wasn't important. And so the trade we as a publisher would make was publish an article, Facebook will boost you in the ranking. In the newsfeed, that trade went away, instant articles went away. You're saying that AMP is a bigger technology. It's a bigger step than just publish an AMP and we'll put you in the carousel and get more traffic.
16:35 Nilay Patel? You're saying it's so much faster that an ecommerce site can actually see more sales because their site loads faster. What specifically about AMP makes it so much faster than what a Pinterest could do by itself?
16:49 Speaker 01 There's a few things, but I do want to mention that AMP itself is completely built on web technologies. There's no magic code in Chrome and certainly not in Safari that kind of makes it faster. It has no access to any private API or anything like that. So you can, you know, make a non AMP page that's as fast or even faster with the right expertise. I think we have a few innovations that lead to AMP in practice having good results, which is like a core goal of the project. One of them was actually an insight which I had in my previous work at Google, where we learned that it's very hard to teach people how to do stuff that's like performs well at scale, even if they're all like really smart Google engineers.
17:34 Speaker 01 And so we also decided, we've been building webpages for like 15 years, kind of know how it works, so we can write tests that can ensure that you do it the right way. We don't have to like tell you, you know, read these, all these blog articles, how to do it. We'll just tell you if you get it wrong. And so tha- that's something that we moved forward into AMP with the invalidator. And so the learning process of creating AMP pages has been very successful in that way. So that's kind of why, while it's not, nothing's unique here, in the end, the outcomes are better at scale. The second part, I think I mentioned earlier, is that the access to instant loading does create basically something that we just can't do for non AMP content for the privacy reasons that I mentioned earlier.
18:10 Nilay Patel? So do you think if you had developed AMP in a vacuum, there's just a bunch of people who had a cool idea for a new standard, and you didn't have the carousel, and you didn't have Google's infrastructure to do instant loading and search, do you think AMP would have won as a web format sort of on the merits? Or do you think it was, its growth was accelerated by the things that Google was able to do on the search page?
18:32 Speaker 01 So I think that there was two things to this equation. We have some experience at Google with like trying to move ecosystems based on search incentives. And they don't actually have, even though I don't want to go into detail, it's like the greatest track record.
18:47 Nilay Patel? Wait, now I want you to go into detail.
18:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, but I won't. So I think there's a, you know, you can't just say just that's because, you know, just because Google says something like, you know, people are gonna do it. Like there's a, in the end, the ROI has to be right. And so it actually has to be great. It actually has to be something that people want. And it has to be a path towards participating that doesn't involve like throwing everything away that you have. So on the other hand, if I had done this by myself, I would have certainly struggled to get the same kind of publicity, for example, like talking to you even than, than if I.
19:21 Nilay Patel? How to talk to you.
19:22 Speaker 01 Right, like we have done over 25 roadshows around the world. We have invested in making our documentation internationalized. So if you look at most web frameworks out there, it's all English. And not everyone in the world speaks English, but everyone in the world should make web pages. And so that's, I mean, there's all these reasons why adoption is where it is that are not some incentive system.
19:43 Nilay Patel? But you had the incentive system. I just want to be clear. You give the incentive system some credit and you're saying Google's additional resources carried you the rest of the way. The only reason I ask this is I'm curious, what evidence do you have independent of just sort of adoption that AMP is a success? Do you have user data that says people are happier and spend more time on AMP pages? Do you have data that says people are happier with the search product? Is there something outside of adoption, which was driven in part by incentives and in part by the other work you're describing? Is there some other data that tells you AMP is a success that users like?
20:16 Speaker 01 So there's all kinds of data like that. There's no way how this could have launched at Google as a product if it wouldn't have been for those user benefits. In fact, one of the original goals of the project was to make trade offs driven by user experience. So it's not actually unfortunately how this, how web development works in general. So there's two other main things that people think about. One obviously is business success and one is developer experience. So how does it feel like as a web developer to work on this? So there's a trade off between these three. And while we try to make the developer experience and the business outcomes as good as possible, we always prioritize user experience and it comes to a fundamentally different outcome. And it's important to understand where AMP came from.
21:01 Speaker 01 So we talked to all these publishers and they came to us and said, like, it's, it's difficult out there and the web isn't doing really well. And, you know, you have to like, remember this was 2015 and people were like singing the death thong of the web. And things were not in great a shape. And so we came from-
21:15 Nilay Patel? I wrote, I wrote an article in 2015 headlined, "The Mobile Web Sucks." So I'm with you.
21:19 Speaker 01 Exactly, right? So this is like, um, we probably printed this out and pinned it on the wall, right? So, so coming from there, what we heard from publishers was like, okay, we know we have to do something. But if we are the only ones, for example, stopping doing pop-up ads, then we'll lose money, everyone else makes more money, and users still hate the web. And so it was, there was this agreement that you needed this industry-wide effort to say like, we're all at the same time make this jump. And prioritize user experience so that in the end, obviously, everyone's happier and everyone has the right business outcome. Because users are happier and that's, in the end, that's good for business, right?
21:56 Nilay Patel? So the flip side of user experience on the web is always revenue. You gotta put ads on the page. As you think about AMP user experience, there are a lot of people out there who would say, there are libraries I can't load, there are ads I can't use, I'm making less money on the AMP page than I am on my regular mobile web page. How do you reconcile that? Do you say, well, you're, look, you're gonna load way more AMP pages, you'll make it up in volume? Or do you say, well, look, we're fixing the web and that's, that's just the price we're paying?
22:24 Speaker 01 So in 2015, we literally said, like, you have to expect some revenue drop. It's part of the experiment and it was really an experiment. And then we launched and we like, people were like, no, actually, this is okay.
22:36 Speaker 01 And since then, we extended what you could do in terms of advertising while keeping the user experience benefits. So for example, what AMP really very much does not allow is like an ad in front of you to like get bigger and like push the text that you were reading away from you. We don't allow this. Initially, it wasn't even possible, but now you can do this as an ad, but it has to be like somewhere like maybe in the middle of the article. So that it happens, you know, while the person is still reading the first couple of paragraphs and when they scroll down, the ad's already like perfectly in place. So we try to make these compromises that don't compromise on the user experience, but when we can, obviously, we do allow these things that generate higher revenue. And so there's definitely no way to say like, we make less money on AMP. Many publishers make more money on AMP.
23:22 Speaker 01 There's all kinds of reasons why you might not. And so thankfully, right now, my colleague Vamzy is writing this many, many article medium series that kind of goes through all the things you can do to optimize your ad experience and your revenue on your AMP page. But this, basically, we kind of eliminated all the fundamental reasons why you should make less money. Except where we don't allow pop-up ads and I will not compromise on that. And I don't think my future steering committee will change their mind about this either.
23:51 Nilay Patel? I think everyone agrees with you that we should not allow pop-up ads or interstitials. Two things that we wouldn't do, actually, and I think a lot of publishers wouldn't do. And a lot of people, everyone just hates. So the change to the governance model, you're adding a steering committee, you're bringing in more people, you have roles to fill, you want that to be a diverse group. Are you doing that now because AMP is ready to get slower and be run by a committee? Or are you doing it because you need AMP to be more participant in the sort of broader web community?
24:17 Speaker 01 So we certainly don't do it to be slower. The blog post we put out kind of has a bit of the goals, and it's certainly one of the goals that we try, that we maintain velocity. And it's not the most difficult way to get there because just like we right now, obviously, have some kind of delegation going on for decision-making that that will still be in place. So we're not actually worried about it in the end. What we do want to recognize and formally recognize, not only do we want to prioritize, for example, user experience, but actual users need to have this official voice in these matters, right? And that can bring their perspective into the mix. And so I think one of the things we mentioned in the blog post was that we were very interested in talking to people who have experience in consumer protection.
25:01 Speaker 01 Because I think they can be very valuable in the decision-making process when you try to balance these things between I need to make more money and I need to make that easier to develop, and then someone else saying, well, yes, but we need to think about the end users and what impact these decisions have on them.
25:17 Nilay Patel? So when you talk about that really broadly, do you think end users know what AMP is? Do they understand when they see the google.com link that they've actually arrived at the Washington Post or The Verge or whatever? Do you think that the broad Google user base understands what's happening with the web when they land on an AMP page?
25:35 Speaker 01 Well, I actually know that they don't know what AMP is. Because we...
25:42 Speaker 01 We've we've ran studies on that. So AMP, in a way, it's a bit of a accidental consumer brand. We we started like in a developer preview and it made sense to put a little icon on the search results so people would actually know what to click. And then it kind of de掉了 an inertia and it stuck around. It certainly is not actually a consumer brand. We want people to understand and that's something we measure, that they learn, okay, I can click this and it'll be fast and it'll not jump around in front of me. But that's obviously very different from a true consumer brand. I think it's not and it's not necessary to be to be a brand.
26:21 Nilay Patel? But it's necessary to have that understanding. And the reason I ask is, you know, we we have a great reporter named Casey Newton, who covering tech companies and democracies every day, and the sort of trust in the media, the trust in companies like Google and Facebook and Amazon, whoever, is perilous, right? And so do you think that there's any effect on how much consumers trust what's happening because they don't see, there's not transparency into how necessarily AMP works for them?
26:48 Speaker 01 So I don't think so. Because maybe for some reason they don't really understand what AMP is, right? Like, I think that's also because we were talking about other formats. AMP really emphasized from day one, while we want all these documents to have these like properties that are similar, the non-jumping around, the instant loading, et cetera. We actually have no opinion about the design. We want the brand of the publisher be forward and to be for stuff to look like the publisher intended. And so I think from a user point of view, it's completely clear to them that they choose to read the New York Times, that they choose to read the Washington Post, they choose to read The World. And I don't think they're confused about what they're doing there.
27:30 Nilay Patel? So last question. Obviously, you've changed governance model, you're staffing out this committee. What's next for AMP? Are you going to be able to make the change to how the URLs work? You know, people complain about scrolling, like, what's the next big move for AMP that the users will see?
27:45 Speaker 01 We're working on a whole kinds of things in parallel. The URL stuff is certainly on the horizon. We are working on a technology called AMP Stories that kind of brings modern mobile-first form of storytelling to more publishers. So that's something I'm very excited about. We are extending the capabilities of AMP. So one of the primary limitations right now is you can't write JavaScript. So it's one of the three big web technologies besides HTML and CSS. And so we are working on making that available to AMP pages. At which point also they will be almost indistinguishable from non-AMP pages because you have no access to all the three big web technologies. So those are kind of the things that are top of my mind. But we are working on many fronts and are definitely very excited about this stuff coming
28:29 Speaker 01 up over the next few months.
28:31 Nilay Patel? Very cool. Well, thank you so much for taking the time today. I love being in the weeds about this stuff and I think it's important that our audience hears from the people who make the web how it's made. So I really appreciate it.
28:41 Speaker 01 Thanks for having me. It was great.
28:44 Nilay Patel? Thanks to Multi-Ugl for talking to us about the future of AMP and the future of the web. I really want to know how you think these episodes are going, if you like the interviews, who you want me to interview and what you want me to talk about. So let me know. I'm at Reckless on Twitter and we'll see you on Friday for the regular Vergecast.
29:00 Nilay Patel? This episode of Vergecast is brought to you by Microsoft Azure. Your business is built on bold ideas. Bring them to life faster, push them farther and scale them worldwide without skipping a beat using Microsoft Azure. Stay productive with familiar tools, develop and deploy where you want with consistent hybrid environment and build engaging apps with intelligent features. Join the startups, governments and 90% of Fortune 500 businesses running on Microsoft Cloud by starting your free account at azure.com/trial. That's A-Z-U-R-E dot com slash trial.
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