Why Are You Gay? Milo Yiannopoulos Explains.

Why are you gay? Milo Yiannopoulos explains. (00:00) Monologue (36:01) Why Are You Gay? (47:23) Does Conversion Therapy Actually Work? (55:06) When Did Milo Decide He Was Gay? (1:01:53) Why Are There So Many Closeted Gays in Right-Wing Media?1:10:34 The Dark Truth About the Fashion Industry (1:22:10) Is Lesbianism Real? (1:28:02) Are Gay Marriages Monogamous? Paid partnerships with: GCU: Find your purpose at Grand Canyon University. Learn more at https://GCU.edu Pure Talk: Get unlimited talk, text, and data for just $29.95/month for life -- only at https://PureTalk.com/Tucker Preborn: To donate please dial #250 and say keyword "BABY" or visit https://preborn.com/TUCKERTCN: Shop the kind of Christmas gifts people won’t re-gift at https://store.tuckercarlson.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. The message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch.

• 0:21Speaker 01

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• 0:30Tucker Carlson?

  Of all the great memes and clips on the internet, fat kid falls off bike being, of course, the top of the list. Really, in the last 13 years, 13 years this week, almost nothing created on this planet has surpassed in popularity or sheer hilarity an interview that took place on Ugandan television in December of 2012 on a show called Morning Breeze, the morning show of Kampala, Uganda, in which a trans activist, a woman who now identifies as a man, came on and was asked a series of questions by the host. And if you don't know what we're talking about, here is a two-second clip that reveals the essence of the conversation.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Why are you gay?

• 1:17Tucker Carlson?

  Why are you gay? It's, let's play that again.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Why are you gay?

• 1:23Tucker Carlson?

  It's still the funniest thing that's ever been on the internet. But why is it funny? And why does almost everyone find it funny? Left, right, straight, gay? Well, because it's kind of the key question. And it's kind of the question that no one in the United States is allowed to ask. Why are you gay? And of course, it's being asked by an East African with kind of a quaint, semi-colonial accent. And, you know, conservatives can laugh at it. Liberals can laugh at it. Really, this is the kind of the only way a white liberal in the United States could ever laugh at a black person. If it's an African expressing non-PC views on homosexuality, why are you gay?

• 2:06Tucker Carlson?

  And of course, people in the West laugh because the guy's an idiot. Why are you gay? We all know why you're gay. Why are you gay? Actually, we're laughing in part because we're not allowed to ask that question. It's settled, though no one's really explained what about it is settled. If you were to ask the average American, "Why are people gay?", they would probably say, "Well, they're born that way." And then if you followed up with, "Well, how exactly does that work?", they would have no idea and would tell you to shut up. Because again, like so many myths or things that we think we know, we don't really know. We can't really explain it. But we do know for dead certain we're not allowed to talk about it. So when some African morning show host in Uganda, wherever the hell that is, asks it

• 2:48Tucker Carlson?

  out loud, we can't help but laugh nervously. "Why are you gay?" If you watch the whole interview, and actually, it's worth watching because it's really revealing, both about Uganda and about the West, the first thing you notice is how polite everybody is. That tone, "Why are you gay?", continued throughout the entire interview, which lasted over an hour. Just watched it. And the morning show host, whether you like him or dislike him, was just unfailingly polite to the guest, who was him or herself also unfailingly polite, and they were just sort of talking past each other. The trans activist couldn't really explain why he or she was gay, or whether gay was different from trans, or what was good about being gay. That was another question the host asked.

• 3:32Tucker Carlson?

  "Why would you want to be gay?" And the trans activist just didn't really have an answer. What was amazing was the sweetness of it. It was not a hate crime, not even approaching a hate crime. No conversation like that could take place in the United States. But the host was coming from a position of total certainty that this is just weird and wrong. And that is the consensus in a lot of the world, and it's certainly, famously, the consensus in Uganda. And the consensus in the United States across both parties and pretty much the whole educated population is, they're horrible because they think homosexuality is wrong. And we know this because about 10 years later, in Uganda, the legislature passed, almost

• 4:16Tucker Carlson?

  unanimously with only, I think, one dissenting vote, a law against something called aggravated homosexuality. Aggravated homosexuality as of 2023 is a death penalty offense in Uganda. What? Aggravated homosexuality? A death penalty offense? That's medieval. But how is it defined in Uganda? Well, if you read it, and you can because it's online... The Ugandan government defines aggregated homosexuality as gay rape of children, gay rape of the elderly who can't consent, people over 75, gay rape of people who are

• 4:58Tucker Carlson?

  mentally deficient, and the intentional transmission of deadly diseases to another person. So it's rape and murder, effectively, are against the law. In fact, capital crimes in Uganda. Hmm. It's a little different than advertised, but you would never know it because the entire American political class erupted as one when this law passed in East Africa, thousands of miles away, with a non-relevant trading partner, with no real military. In other words, there's no actual reason to care about what Uganda does. But everyone here did care, bipartisanly. And we're actually not going to expect you

• 5:42Tucker Carlson?

  to take our word for it. We're going to go right to the CIA for the answer, meaning Wikipedia. This is the Wikipedia description of the response. President Joe Biden weighed in. This was two years ago. This is 2023. President Joe Biden condemned the law, calling it, quote, "a tragic violation of universal human rights," and, quote, "the latest development in an alarming trend of human rights abuses and corruption in Uganda." Corruption. So here, the Ugandans, the Ugandans, had the temerity to exercise a democratic process

• 6:20Tucker Carlson?

  using a legislature elected by the people of Uganda to pass a law almost unanimously with one dissenting vote. And that's corruption. It's almost as corrupt as the anti-gay marriage initiative in California that voters passed, but judges wisely struck down in the name of democracy. Okay, so that was Biden's response. But it wasn't just Biden. Here's Senator Ted Cruz, the self-described conservative from Texas. Here's what he said. He tweeted this. He put this in writing, as he so often does. And we're quoting, "Any law criminalizing homosexuality or imposing the death penalty for, quote, 'aggravated homosexuality' is

• 7:00Tucker Carlson?

  grotesque and an abomination. All civilized nations should join together in condemning this human rights abuse."

• 7:11Tucker Carlson?

  So it's uncivilized to penalize gay rape, or the intentional transmission of a deadly disease. That's uncivilized!

• 7:23Tucker Carlson?

  Seems kinda civilized. But at the time, nobody agreed. This was grotesque, the kinda thing that only Africans would do. It's one step up from cannibalism, could you believe it? Penalizing gay rape? And the intentional transmission of AIDS? What do they think of next? They'll throw you in a stewpot, savages. You'll notice that Uncle Ted called it "an abomination", and the Anglican Communion agreed. Here's Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the leader of the rapidly dying Anglican Communion, which would include the Episcopal Church of the United States, the state church of England. He wrote to the Archbishop of Uganda, Christian brother to Christian brother, to express his "grief and dismay"

• 8:08Tucker Carlson?

  at the Church of Uganda's support for the Anti-Homosexuality Act.

• 8:14Tucker Carlson?

  "The head of the Church of England was filled with grief at the thought that rape would be banned, and the intentional transmission of AIDS, etc., etc." But it didn't stop with expressions of grief and condemnation and tweets from Ted Cruz, no. It got right to the hard stuff, to the things that matter, meaning money and foreign aid.

• 8:39Tucker Carlson?

  Here's the World Bank. Immediately, the World Bank swings into action. The World Bank announced it would halt lending to Uganda in response to the new law. "No more lending, no more money for you, we're cutting you off." The financial institution noted that the act, "fundamentally contradicts the World Bank Group's values." Ooh, what are the World Bank's values? That'd be interesting to know.

• 9:07Tucker Carlson?

  You know, in a sane country, contradicting the World Bank's quote "values" would be a sign of virtue, probably. Probably get a merit badge for that. But the World Bank was outraged. They know sin when they see it. Banning gay rape. We'll tolerate a lot, but not that. And then finally, Joe Biden, in October of 2023, spun fully into a frenzy at this point, watching, taking the lead of the World Bank, announced that Uganda would be expelled from the group of Sub-Saharan African countries that benefit from tax breaks under the U.S. African Growth and Opportunity Act, AGOA, because of the country's quote "gross violations of internationally-recognized human rights," which violate the AGOA eligibility criteria.

• 9:52Tucker Carlson?

  So that was 2023. So, bottom line, no more money for you. What happened next? Well, Uganda didn't starve. The next year, there was a famine. Not to laugh at famine, but it's almost unbelievable. So you ban gay rape of children and the elderly and the mentally disabled, and we're gonna starve you out. And boy, did they. The United States shut it down, international aid institutions followed suit, and the next year, Uganda had a famine that is still ongoing. 50% of children in Uganda today suffer the symptoms of malnutrition,

• 10:33Tucker Carlson?

  stunted growth, anemia. 50%! Half of all Ugandan kids are starving. And of course, Uganda's never been a rich country. It's had a lot of turmoil. Idi Amin was from there. Uganda has some problems, for sure. But the year after the West collectively withdrew aid from Uganda, billions in aid, they have a famine, and it's all because they banned gay rape of children. Okay, so I guess the point here is, our values are pretty clear. We're for this,

• 11:13Tucker Carlson?

  and we're totally against questioning it. And if you do, we will hurt you. So what is that? Why are you gay? Maybe that's a question worth asking.

• 11:26Tucker Carlson?

  But of course, nobody has. And then you wake up one morning and you realize that supporting homosexuality, which is very different from like not hating gays. No one should hate gays. And most Americans don't hate gays. In fact, what was the last few men in America who did hate gays? I don't know, I ever have, at least in the past 30 years. No one hates gays. You know, a million gays and some of them are awesome people. Work for you or your friends or whatever. It's not about hating gays. It's about being forced to say this is an affirmative good. And if you disagree with that, then you are affirmatively bad. And we're going to stoke a famine in your country to punish you. That's literally where we are. And some of us should have been paying closer attention

• 12:11Tucker Carlson?

  as this movement, never formally declared, not the gay rights movement, but the terror against anyone who opposes gay rights, whatever those are, worshipping homosexuality. We should have paid closer attention. Going to refer you to one of the great clips of the entire Biden administration. When people look back on the Biden administration, there will be, of course, an endless loop of him falling off his bike or identifying his sister as his wife, or clips designed to show how confused and senile this poor guy was. And those will, in a lot of ways, represent the administration. But it's the moment of clarity, those occasional moments of clarity, where Biden was really saying something on purpose because he meant it and he wanted to tell you what was important. Those are the clips that actually define

• 12:56Tucker Carlson?

  the four disastrous years of Joe Biden. And above all, I would argue, this clip tells you everything you need to know about the values of the US government, of our popular culture, of the West collectively. And once we understand the values, we can assess are those the right values? And can a civilization continue with those values? But first, the clip. Here's Joe Biden describing a trip to downtown Wilmington, Delaware, with his dad in 1962.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  I remember getting out of a car when I was trying to be dropped off at the local city hall to get a job to be the only white employee in the east side of town, in the neighborhood, in the projects, as a lifeguard. My dad was dropping me off. So I could, he'd go around the block. I'd run and get the application. And two well-dressed men kissed one another as I was opening the door. And I hadn't seen that before. And I turned around and one walked off to the DePonte Building, one walked off to what used to be called the Hercules Corporation. And I looked at my dad and he just looked at me and said, "It's simple, honey. They love each other. It's just basic. There's nothing complicated about it." That's how I was raised, for real.

• 14:06Tucker Carlson?

  This is like the greatest clip ever. And there's just so much. I mean, you could really spend all day getting Talmudic on it, just dissecting it and trying to figure out what it means. I mean, there's so many parts to this. First of all, Biden's dad called him honey? That's weird. What dad calls his boy honey, honey? Strange. And who knows what it means? Not implying anything, but it's weird. Well, Grand Canyon University is not like most American colleges. It focuses on the things that actually matter. It is not a ripoff. It is the real thing. It's private, affordable, Christian university located in the heart of Phoenix, one of the largest universities in the country, actually. At Grand Canyon University, education is more than academics.

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• 15:33Tucker Carlson?

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• 15:56Speaker 04

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• 16:50Speaker 05

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• 17:50Tucker Carlson?

  But the main thing to notice is this is 1962 that this supposedly happened in downtown Wilmington, Delaware. And in 1962, what was the state of America's views about homosexuality? Not an individual gaze. This has always been a very, very tolerant country for all minority groups, actually, by any, any global standard. But the country's official views on like gay sex, for example. Well, it was a felony in 49 states in the summer of 1962, the only state in which it was legal, Illinois, had just legalized it several months before. So having gay sex in the United States, when Biden claims this happened, was a felony pretty much everywhere.

• 18:35Tucker Carlson?

  A felony. Very few people ever went to jail for it because no one was really interested in enforcing it. But the laws of the United States mirrored those of pretty much every country in the world from then going back maybe to Athens. Like, people have always been against this. It's always been officially discouraged by every single society. The question is why? That's worth a conversation at some point. Probably not just random bigotry. Every society that we know about ever has had an official policy against gay sex or forms of gay sex.

• 19:12Tucker Carlson?

  Why? Again, can you explain it to me without getting hysterical? Maybe there's a reason there? Who knows? But that was a state in the United States in the summer of 1962. So the idea that Joe Biden's drunk used car salesman dad turned to him, this brutish Irish guy who Biden has described many times, and says, honey, honey, it's just love. It's okay. It's just love. Two guys making out outside the DuPont building in downtown Wilmington. Totally normal.

• 19:41Tucker Carlson?

  Is so transparently absurd. It's such an obvious attempt to graft modern values onto an antique setting that it's so clearly fake that amazingly, no one laughed, but no one did laugh because no one was allowed to laugh. But that's absurd. Ask anyone who was alive in 1960s, who just used common sense? That didn't happen. But notice how Biden frames it. He said he was getting dropped off to get a job as the only white man working in the hood, breaking the color barrier. It wasn't just a summer job, it was a victory for civil rights. And he was the kind of guy who would do that because his family had a long commitment

• 20:22Tucker Carlson?

  to civil rights, as evidenced by his father's kind of casual acceptance of homosexuality. It's just love. It's just love. Okay. So what do we learn from that? We learn that Biden's, of course, a fabulous, we knew that. But in this specific clip, he's lying for a reason to transmit to the nation its essential values. And at the very top of that list is we are for homosexuality. That's number one. It's right up there with civil rights. People get to vote, people get to have gay sex. That's America. That's our culture. Okay. So it probably shouldn't surprise you that the self-reported incidence of homosexuality

• 21:06Tucker Carlson?

  and its many varieties in the United States rose dramatically during that period. And here are roughly the numbers. So about a little over 10 years ago, 2012, among young people in the United States, about 6% said, yeah, I'm not heterosexual. So that would be in the range that, you know, we've been told for many years was natural, right? Maybe 10%, a little under 10% of people say they're not heterosexual in whatever, you know, gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, whatever, but they're not one man, one woman, monogamy people at all. So that was the number a little over 10 years ago. Last year, the number among young people was over 20%.

• 21:46Tucker Carlson?

  So a little more than a decade, you have a threefold increase, 300% increase in self-identified non-heterosexual orientation in a little over 10 years.

• 22:00Tucker Carlson?

  What are we looking at? Well, we're looking at demographic collapse, among other things. Right? But what is the phenomenon, actually? Where does this come from? Or to put it in Ugandan terms, why are you gay? Well, let's see. We have been told for the course of my life that you're born gay. It's like handedness, or eye color, or height. It's just something that you're born with. God created you that way. You are unique. Your iris, your fingerprints, your sexuality, they're all unique to you. And that's something not to be embarrassed of, unless you're a white man, in which case,

• 22:41Tucker Carlson?

  of course, slink away in shame, be denied admission to college or a job. But for everyone else, your immutable characteristics are something that you celebrate, that you should be proud of. They're not something that you chose, they're not something you can change. And this is the story that all of us have been told, and most of us, me included, sort of, kind of believe that. Okay? And if that's true, of course, you could never, ever show bias against someone on the basis of his immutable characteristics, because that's wrong, it's also un-Christian. And that is true, it is un-Christian, to attack someone on the basis of something with which he was born, of course. Really, no one has put this in clearer terms than the former mayor of South Bend, Indiana,

• 23:25Tucker Carlson?

  the former transportation secretary, and as of today, the leading candidate for the Democratic nomination in 2028, Mr. Pete Buttigieg. Here he is.

• 23:36Speaker 06

  I can tell you that if me being gay was a choice, it was a choice that was made far, far above my pay grade. And that's the thing I wish the Mike Pence's of the world would understand, that if you got a problem with who I am, your problem is not with me. Your quarrel, sir, is with my Creator.

• 23:59Tucker Carlson?

  Take it up with God! He made me this way. Notice the self-seriousness, the sort of JFK-esque gaze into the distance. Your quarrel, sir, is with my Creator. Little drama queen. Yeah, maybe, okay. But that doesn't really answer the question. Why was Pete Buttigieg dating chicks for the first part of his adult life? By his own admission, he was dating women, like a bunch of women. He was openly heterosexual, including in the US military after the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. So it was totally legal to be gay in the military, but Pete was still heterosexual.

• 24:41Tucker Carlson?

  So the answer, I think, most people come to is, well, he was just ashamed of being gay. Like, he couldn't be his true self. He couldn't kind of let it out. Maybe that's true, though those of us who were living in the United States 10 years ago, remember that there was no sanction against being gay. Tons of gay television is filled with gay people. Those of us who worked in television around gay people, great gay people, actually, just being clear, really nice, good people, all day long. Was anything weird about being gay 10 years ago, 15 years ago, when Pete Buttigieg was like, "I couldn't come to terms with my own sexuality because his parents are so oppressive"? No, they were actually lifestyle liberals. They're big left-wingers, his parents. So probably unlikely that his parents were like, "Don't be gay, son!" If you watch this show, you know that we love Pure Talk.

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• 27:44Tucker Carlson?

  Six. So it's a completely fair question. You were dating chicks not that long ago, a bunch of them, and all of a sudden you're getting all self-serious about how God made you this way. Explain how that works. It's a totally fair question, especially since...

• 28:02Tucker Carlson?

  Pete Buttigieg's whole identity is wrapped up in being gay. His whole identity. It's not like Pete Buttigieg is running for president because he's had such incredible career as a public servant. He fixed South Bend, Indiana. He's just a really good mayor. Nobody thinks that. Ask anybody in South Bend. He was just a really good driver in the US military, who's an awesome Transportation Secretary. He was a joke as a Transportation Secretary. Did air travel get better under Pete Buttigieg? Did the roads get fixed? Did anything improve in American transportation during Pete Buttigieg's tenure as Transportation Secretary? No.

• 28:42Tucker Carlson?

  He wasn't just lame. He was awful. And in case you don't remember, here's his signature achievement as Secretary of Transportation, identifying racist roads.

• 28:50Speaker 08

  And the interstate system, the interstate system was built to keep certain groups in and certain groups out. So it was built on a racist system, correct?

• 28:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, often this wasn't just an act of neglect. Often, this was a conscious choice. There is racism physically built into some of our highways.

• 29:06Tucker Carlson?

  There was racism built in to the highways. There was rebar and a concrete substrate, and of course gravel, and then asphalt poured over the top. But mixed in there, probably in a drum at some point, was actual white racism. It was mixed into the roads, and that's why Pete Buttigieg had to tear them up. That's it. That's a real clip. That's not AI, as you may remember.

• 29:29Tucker Carlson?

  That's insane. That was his tenure as Secretary of Transportation, not being mean to him. And it's like, not even worth dredging that up again, except to make the point that being gay isn't just this thing about Pete Buttigieg. It's the whole point of Pete Buttigieg. It is the reason that he has the plurality of support from Democratic primary voters who are not black.

• 30:02Tucker Carlson?

  His support among black voters? They're more in the "why are you gay" camp. They're not impressed at all. In fact, I'm trying to do the math here. I think his support, Pete Buttigieg's current support among African-American Democratic primary voters is, let's see, around zero. So 0% in that range, meaning nobody, no black people. They're not going for it. "Why are you gay?" You can almost hear them saying that. But among white liberals, Pete Buttigieg's gayness, the fact he's married to a dude called Jason and has somehow acquired babies, somehow? How do you get babies? Just sort of buy them somewhere? Whatever.

• 30:46Tucker Carlson?

  He has these babies. And he is the model of, whatever, a modern gay man. That's the whole point. He is a civil rights hero because of who he sleeps with. Pretty amazing. So two obvious points to make about that. First, do you remember when they used to tell us, "We don't care what happens in your bedroom"? Do you remember that? "We want to keep politics out of the bedroom. We want to keep politicians out of your bedroom." This was a way to justify the Holocaust of abortion, of course, but the line sounded kind of appealing. Yeah, politicians probably stay out of my bedroom. That seems fair. Now, your bedroom is the whole point.

• 31:29Tucker Carlson?

  You've got politicians running on what they do in their bedroom and on the Democratic side, succeeding. Because that leads very obviously to the second point, which is, there are a lot of rewards in store for someone in the Democratic Party, an ambitious politician, someone who really only cares about the goal, which in Pete Buttigieg's case has always been, becoming president. Is it bad to come out of the closet and announce that you're gay? No, no, no. That's like the only way you're going to get to the White House. That's the only way. That's your ticket, being, quote, "gay." Huh.

• 32:08Tucker Carlson?

  So, given that that's obviously true, and given that this guy dated girls as an adult, it's totally fair to ask the question, "Why are you gay?" Like, what is this? Starting to think that maybe it's not genetic, or entirely genetic, and if it is, show me the gene. We've decoded the human genome. We can tell you where the gene for eye color comes from. Where's the gay gene? Maybe there is a gay gene, by the way. Lots of things we haven't decoded yet. Maybe it's there. Are you looking for it? Are you trying to answer this question?

• 32:48Tucker Carlson?

  No. The whole game is to make you be quiet, ashamed, because there's something to do with sex, and what are you, a creep focused on sex? You're obsessed with gay sex! Sort of a variety. You're obsessed with Israel! Actually, not. But you're way up in my face about it. And so I think it's fair to ask you a couple of very simple, straightforward questions, foundational questions, like, what is this? Where does it come from? Why is it good? Why is being gay better than not being gay? And if it's not 100% genetic, clearly isn't, if you've had a 300% increase in 10 years, probably not genetic, unless our genetics are changing at lightning speed, unless evolution

• 33:32Tucker Carlson?

  is a much faster process than Darwin ever reckoned. If it's not entirely genetic, then what are the other factors? And since, apart from moral concerns, or the concerns of human happiness, does this actually make you happy? And what does it mean to live as a gay person in the United States? What exactly does that look like? Like, what's your life like? How many people do you have sex with? How are those unfair questions? Since you're the one throwing it in my face and telling me I'm not allowed to be against it, maybe I'm allowed to ask the questions I don't really want to ask, don't really want to know the answers to. But since you've made it the North Star of our moral system in the United States, since you're willing to starve an African country because they disagree with it, maybe it's

• 34:16Tucker Carlson?

  time for me to ask those questions because you push me to. On this and a lot of other issues, if you just back off a little bit... If we could just return to the status quo of, say, 1985, where, yeah, they're gay people. They're great. They're off, you know, whatever. They're here, they're there, whatever. But they're not pushing gay sex on my kids in school. That's clearly not a good idea. Tell me why it is a good idea. And of course, it's a crime to intentionally infect someone with an infectious disease. And of course, it's, in fact, the hallmark of civilization to make rape illegal, gay or straight. What?

• 34:56Tucker Carlson?

  But since you blew up all those previous assumptions and now made them illegal, Uganda, you know, made this crime punishable by death. You made their law punishable by famine. So who's more serious about it? You are. Since you did all of that, how about we just slowly, in a non-hysterical, obviously non-hateful way, ask, what are we looking at? Why are you gay? Why is that a good thing? What is it exactly? And there are a lot of people we could ask about this, but we thought, believe it or not, the most articulate person we know to answer these questions is Milo Yiannopoulos, who was very famous 10 years ago as a, what was he called?

• 35:40Tucker Carlson?

  Conservative provocateur, running around the country, making the case against liberals as an open, in fact, flamboyant gay man. And that was part of the shtick, right? It's like, we've got a gay guy too. What are you gonna say now? You know, we've got black conservatives too. You can't call us racist. We've got a gay conservative. You can't call us homophobes. And so Milo was unleashed on the world. And then in literally one day, he was canceled, really destroyed as a person in a sort of non-scandal that, like so many of that period and of this period, took him right off the stage. You never heard from him again. But during the period when he was floating around America on his Dangerous Faggot Tour,

• 36:22Tucker Carlson?

  spreading, uh, whatever it was, libertarian economics or something to the kids, it became obvious that this guy was actually really smart. You know, even for those of us who were never that interested in the dangerous faggot part of it, if you listen, you thought, well, this guy's not dumb at all. He's actually very thoughtful, very thoughtful, high IQ, high IQ guy who thinks about things. So over the last couple of years, during text conversations, I became aware that Milo had decided that he didn't want to be gay anymore. That was kind of interesting. I didn't know you could decide you didn't want to be gay. And then you read about it and turns out there's a whole industry movement and laws designed to prevent you from deciding

• 37:05Tucker Carlson?

  not to be gay. Huh? The parts of the United States have banned conversion therapies. You're not allowed to talk to a psychiatrist about not having same-sex attraction. Wow. What is that? It's like, once you're in, you can't get out? It's like mandatory gayness? What the hell are we looking at? Well, it's the season to give gifts to those you love, and there's no greater gift than the first gift, the gift of life. With the abortion mafia doubling down, there's never been a more important time to fight back against them and for children, which is really all that matters, children. Our friends at Preborn are the ones to go to. They're the ones we trust. We've got a partnership with Preborn, and that partnership helps preserve the joy of life and supports mothers in need, mothers who didn't expect to be

• 37:49Tucker Carlson?

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• 38:31Tucker Carlson?

  28 bucks. All gifts are tax deductible. Dial pound 250, say the keyword baby, pound 250 baby, or visit preborn.com/tucker, preborn.com/tucker. And so it seemed worth a sit-down conversation with Milo Yiannopoulos, and just ask him sincere questions like, what is this? Why did you decide to change? What's it like changing? What does it mean to be gay in the United States specifically?

• 38:58Tucker Carlson?

  And so that conversation follows, and we hope you enjoy it.

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• 40:03Tucker Carlson?

  You're really nice to do this. I'm glad you came. I want to begin with-

• 40:06Speaker 10

  You're the only person to have me on. I'm joking, I'm joking.

• 40:08Tucker Carlson?

  No, I'm actually really interested. I'm interested in this topic. I've never been interested in it, but, but I want to begin by asking you to-

• 40:15Speaker 10

  It's icky, isn't it? It's icky.

• 40:16Tucker Carlson?

  Well, sort of impersonal, but you know, it's occurred to me, particularly when I have interviewed Republican politicians, particularly neocons over the years.

• 40:24Speaker 10

  My sexuality comes, comes to mind. I can't think why.

• 40:26Tucker Carlson?

  I've always wanted to say, you know, you got an accent. Are you gay?

• 40:29Speaker 10

  Why are you gay?

• 40:30Tucker Carlson?

  So let me, let me ask, are you gay? Were you gay? Like, what is gay?

• 40:34Speaker 10

  Nobody's gay. Nobody's gay. After that clip, which is the best thing on the internet, he changes the question, the interrogative to a declarative. He says, "Why are you gay?" And she starts, you know, it starts talking. He says, "You are gay." It becomes, it becomes a statement. And this is where he goes, uh, this is where he loses me because, um, nobody is gay.

• 41:00Speaker 10

  We've been encouraged to think of this. It's an icky subject, like straight men don't want to think about.

• 41:05Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, it's okay. I mean, it's reached the-

• 41:07Speaker 10

  But you invited me.

• 41:08Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I invited you because I have not, you know, not wanted to be engaged with the topic at all. I don't have strong, super strong personal feelings about it, but all of a sudden,

• 41:21Tucker Carlson?

  it has become like a defining fact of the West that we have a huge gay population.

• 41:25Speaker 10

  Exhorting sodomy-

• 41:27Tucker Carlson?

  But no one wants to talk about it.

• 41:28Speaker 10

  Giving aid with, you know, with strings attached. So I was, I was like, what metaphor am I reaching for? Strings attached?

• 41:36Speaker 10

  Yes, you can, but only if you have a gay pride festival.

• 41:39Tucker Carlson?

  Great.

• 41:40Speaker 10

  What is that?

• 41:42Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. What is that?

• 41:43Speaker 10

  Yes, it has been. And all of these things, and with the, with the collapse in people identifying as trans, you're beginning to now see what some of us have always known about homosexuality, which is that this is a product. I mean, there are some people, obviously, who were probably always going to be gay, Tammy Bruce. But, you know, like, maybe she might be the only real lesbian. She might be the only real lesbian. I believe when Tammy Bruce tells me that she was only ever into women, I believe her. You know, and, and I like her, by the way. I think she's great. But, but she's like the only real lesbian. With gay men, which is completely different, we see the, we see the numbers go up, the numbers go down. This is not, without some change in environmental factors, this doesn't make sense if we believe the old lie, born this way.

• 42:29Speaker 10

  If we believe what was in fact invented in the 1980s as a public relations strategy, born this way. So what happened back in the days?

• 42:39Speaker 10

  Gays were in the eighties with AIDS and all the rest of it, wanting to, to, to be out and proud and to wear their sins on their sleeves. And somebody came up with this, this idea, which, which caught on and worked. It was twofold. One is, oh, what if we say that being gay is like being black or being a woman?

• 43:00Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 43:02Speaker 10

  Then they're a bigot. We're not weird. And so it takes the religious, the moral majority's sinful lifestyle choice argument. And it screws them because now they're saying like, you're wrong to be a girl, or you're wrong to be black.

• 43:16Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 43:16Speaker 10

  It was invented. It was invented wholesale by the activists in the 1980s. And the second part of it was, and this is in a book called After the Ball, which is kind of defined how gay activists were going to-

• 43:30Speaker 10

  Well, it really, it was very influential because it was really the book that told gay activists how to get this revolting sin that most people don't even want to think about upfront and center, family-friendly, and ultimately to the state where we let them adopt children, which is a whole thing we'll get into. And that was, don't talk about bodily functions, don't talk about effluvia, just talk about love. Just talk about love. Talk about it in terms of love, like, love is love, love wins. And we see this to the present day. Never talk about, you know, the stains on the sheets, the promiscuity, the drugs, the glory halls in Berlin nightclubs. Never talk about any of those things, because those

• 44:11Speaker 10

  things will repel women. And you need moms with gay sons to affirm their homosexuality. And so what is that homosexuality? Long answer for a short question, I understand. In almost every case, and in certainly in every male case, it is a trauma response. It is not a sexuality. It is not part of what you are, or who you are, or a component of your personality, or a function of... It is a set of behaviors that emerges in people with a number of very easily identifiable, common etiologies. One of them is, well,

• 44:52Speaker 10

  so for instance, among gay, excuse me, among black and Jewish Americans, they report statistically significantly higher rates of homosexuality. Well, why could that be? Overbearing moms and absent dads. Or in the Jewish case, nebbish fathers. And, you know, Jewish, my Jewish friends, I always call their marriages are like lion taming, you know, where you have a sort of nebbish scholarly bookish dad, and a larger-than-life mom who, you know, one day decides she's gonna be a rabbi. But, you know, that, or in the black community, of course, it's the fatherlessness. And so why, why, if we're born this way, if you don't have some other better explanation, could it be the case that there are more

• 45:34Speaker 10

  gays among black and Jewish populations? Well, something's going on here. Why are we getting more trans and more gays and then less gays? And that's why, because this is in fact a symptom. In fact, this is a product of something. It's a result of something.

• 45:49Tucker Carlson?

  Well, this was Freud's position, which was kind of conventional wisdom for the better part of 100 years, that this was a response to the environment and particularly to the relationship with the mother that a young boy has and relationship with his father. I mean, this was, this was like, people just assumed that was true when I was a kid. They were not gay haters or homophobes. That just, that was a state of knowledge on the subject.

• 46:16Speaker 10

  One of, one of the only things Freud got right was that. And it's funny that, you know, the way that that's actually in line with Catholic Church teaching and now it's become, now you see the, the terminology in the medical industry has begun to change as well because, you know, they, they now gay people are sort of saturated everywhere. You know, like when you get, it's kind of like America, you get a whole country full of people who are very similar, but all think they're really, really individual.

• 46:41Tucker Carlson?

  That's deep, yes. I do know what that looks like.

• 46:46Speaker 10

  And, and, and, you know, sort of, America's a very fagotized country in all kinds of ways. That's the technical term. If you want to know the truth about homosexuality, you've got to go to Black YouTube and listen to the girls.

• 46:59Tucker Carlson?

  How do you get to Black YouTube, by the way?

• 47:02Speaker 10

  Well, you know, it's a sort of tumbling, it's a tumbling kind of thing. You find one good video by somebody who's like, mm, Steph Curry, mm, you're fagotized. Sorry. And then, and then, you know, you'll tumble through the algorithm. I'll send you some links. I'll post some links on my Twitter.

• 47:21Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know if I dare, but that, but you're saying that's the more honest YouTube.

• 47:24Speaker 10

  It's the only honest YouTube. It's the only honest anything because you go past the churches and you'll see, you know, the white homo demon stealing your man. And it's not the pastor who comes up with this stuff. It's his wife. It's his wife who's got this, you know, who, who was trying to set her girlfriend up with somebody and that was all great, but, but, but he went, he went off with a dude, which is, you know, like even, which is sort of equi distant for them from going off with a white girl or whatever. But no, you, you, the only honest place where, you know, people will just be like, did it fagotize, you know, and then I'll go, and then.

• 48:06Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing.

• 48:07Speaker 10

  LeBron, faggot ass. And they'll go through it all. I mean, for me, the nepotism ultra of this genre would be Black China's mum. Do you know who that is?

• 48:17Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 48:18Speaker 10

  Of course you don't. You remind me of a line from Blackadder sometimes, you know? Because you have this sort of lovely, kind of like ingenue kind of thing that you do. And it's like, well, no, I've just, I don't know anything. But do you remember that line from Blackadder? Like, slumbering autogenarians who claim never to have heard of the Beatles?

• 48:33Tucker Carlson?

  No, but I get it.

• 48:35Speaker 10

  He's talking about High Court judges.

• 48:36Tucker Carlson?

  I've never actually heard of Blackadder before, so I...

• 48:39Speaker 10

  You're kidding.

• 48:40Tucker Carlson?

  I'm actually not.

• 48:42Speaker 10

  What? I don't even know what you're talking about.

• 48:46Tucker Carlson?

  But that's okay, it's not about me. I'm just trying to think.

• 48:48Speaker 10

  That's how Stephen Fry and Rowan Atkinson got famous. How do you know Blackadder?

• 48:52Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know, there are huge gaps. I'm not, I'm not a knowledgeable man.

• 48:56Speaker 10

  Sweet baby Jesus and the orphans. Well, you say this, yes. But anyway, so Tokyo Tony is her name. And she's, anyway, you can Google Tokyo Tony, that's your into black everything. Anyway, she's great. There's a whole, I mean, YouTube now, the only interesting bits of YouTube that still get views are like the, these black shows. They're like, oh, these massively overproduced shows with these incredibly elaborate sets. And they've got like, you know, 43 people live watching. But the archives and the clips like go crazy. Anyway.

• 49:25Tucker Carlson?

  Man, I've got, I've got a series of delights ahead of me.

• 49:28Speaker 10

  Well, you don't have many black people on this show, so you've got me instead.

• 49:30Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 49:33Speaker 10

  I'll be, I'll be your, I'll be your African American contingent. I'll introduce you to these things. So, no, I, I'm kidding. But, so.

• 49:40Tucker Carlson?

  So this, you're describing a world into which a lot of conventional propaganda has not yet filtered.

• 49:46Speaker 10

  Well, it's interesting.

• 49:46Tucker Carlson?

  Or they're resistant to it or something.

• 49:47Speaker 10

  It's interesting because, why are you gay? Are you gay? The, the, the origin of, of, of, of the born this way I've just, I've just described, I've just explained.

• 49:59Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 10

  The, the reality is that these communities who experience this problem a lot, right? The black community, particularly because of fatherlessness, a lot of gay black kids, there's just a lot of them, have this very blunt and truthful, I mean, I mean, look.

• 50:17Speaker 10

  Looking at me now, it's impossible to imagine that I used to be a homosexual. It hadn't entered my mind. No, but, but, but. I knew you during your flaming stage, so I had heard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, but, but there are so many like flaming young black men in America today especially. And this is a problem this community is dealing with and they don't, you know, uh, black America is like commendably impervious to a lot of the, uh, the woke PC language and stuff. You know, like very creditably skeptical of vaccines. Yes. They won't go along with a lot of this stuff like, you know, uh, uh, the proposition, whatever in California, gay marriage. Why? It's black women who are like holding on the fort. So I love Candace Owens so much. You know, the ungovernability of black women is the only thing that might possibly save America.

• 51:03Speaker 10

  Uh, you know, as embodied in our friend, uh, Candace, who is just like, you know, she's ungovernable in the best possible way. She's not going along with it. She, she isn't, but to put it mildly. Yeah, fair, fair. She is not going along with it and Candace is a very beautiful, polished, you know, intelligent, uh, uh, uh, uh, sort of a microcosm of a trend that you see everywhere in black America now, which is like, ain't doing that, ain't doing that, definitely ain't doing that. Wow. And, and, and it's very interesting. So, so, um, they will be very resistant to this stuff. They kind of intuit what white people I think have forgotten because, you know, we're just all sort of like bomb, so weakened, demoralized and like kind of overburdened with this nonsense.

• 51:47Speaker 10

  The truth is that homosexuality and in particular, conversion therapy is the first thing upon which the liberals tried what they later did to Trump, which is just this, this wall of, uh, fake news, misinformation, propaganda. It's the first time, I mean, there's, there's other examples like around wars and things like that, but when it comes to social issues, it's the first time I think the press just says, oh, hell no, except they didn't do that because they're white, but, uh, you know, they just move. Sometimes I lose the characters, get confused. Sorry, I'm gonna put Rwanda away. Uh, no, so I, you know, the, the, the, um. The first time that the media decides this is a social issue, we care about enough

• 52:29Speaker 10

  because we don't lose our gay friends, that we're gonna just lie and demonize and give the full fake news treatment that we later saw in its most sophisticated form, leveraged, praise God, unsuccessfully against Trump again and again and again, right? So they start off with this, you know, "You were born this way, honey, you are born this way, honey, you are beautiful," whatever you are. No, you're like that because you got raped by a priest, or you're like that because your mom was overbearing and your dad wasn't around, or you're like that because you failed to form platonic, stable attachments to other men as a child. For some reason, maybe you didn't have a good male role model or whatever,

• 53:09Speaker 10

  but there is a relatively small number of identifiable and repeated etiologies that mark somebody out as being, you know, vulnerable to this. And you look into the histories of gay, but they'll all deny it, saying, "Oh, that's just me," but it's not. And they know, they know, because I knew, and they know, and I talk to them privately when there's no cameras, that I could squeeze it out of them eventually that you get there. Yes, there's something about their sexual activity they know isn't right. And it's not just in the technical sense that the sex is sterile and therefore can never be part of the holy sacrament of marriage, because it can't be coprocreation with God, right?

• 53:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 53:48Speaker 10

  Coprocreation with God, meaning, you know, you make a physical body with your wife, but then God puts a soul in.

• 53:54Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 53:55Speaker 10

  And that's why it's the most precious sacrament, because, you know, you do the others, you do your confirmation, all the rest of it, but it's leading up to you getting to make something with God, right? Which is the real reason that Lucifer is so mad, and that, because the angels can't do that, right? The angels don't get to participate in creation with our Lord, but every single human being does.

• 54:15Tucker Carlson?

  And you feel that too, when you have kids, even if you don't know what it is, you feel there's something supernatural going on here.

• 54:22Speaker 10

  This is gonna sound completely pathetic, but I have some kind of... Some kind of pathetic simulacrum of it. Now I've become a cat dad, just in the terms of like caring for something helpless.

• 54:33Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 54:34Speaker 10

  And it's bringing out of me something that I know is going to lead to fatherhood. Because I'm responsible for this being that loves and laughs, and they do, you know, and requires regular, not just maintenance, but affection and to be tended to and loved. Like, I love dogs. I'm like, I used to be more of a dog guy, but I live in a, I live in a house on the National Register of Historic Places, so I can't have dogs. And so I just, I got a cat one day, you know, just because, just because somebody found it in an engine. I was like, I'm so alone. So I said, sure, I'll give it, give it, give it, give it a damn kitten. And at that point, I wasn't sure I was going to drown it, wear it, or nurture it. But, but I was just like, oh, okay.

• 55:20Speaker 10

  And being responsible for shaping the personality, which anybody who has animals, who loves animals knows that is 100% real. Responsible shaping the personality, nurturing that, that being into either being a parent itself, or just to be a companion, or to being the best that it can be, right?

• 55:39Speaker 10

  It's, it's bringing something out in me, you know, that wasn't present when I was having a lot of what most people would regard as, well, what homosexuals would regard as very desirable kind of sex, you know, with a particular kind of person or whatever. So this, you get to the base of it and you get to the heart of it. If you're sort of one on one with a gay, they will, they won't just talk about the emptiness of their life, or the fact that the sex is sterile or whatever. They will know that there's something not quite right. And so.

• 56:09Tucker Carlson?

  And that its origin is there at something that was not quite right.

• 56:13Speaker 10

  Have you ever been addicted to anything?

• 56:15Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:16Speaker 10

  Okay.

• 56:16Tucker Carlson?

  Big time.

• 56:18Speaker 10

  So you know, there's that moment when your mind is flooded and it's all you can think about.

• 56:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 56:23Speaker 10

  And it's all that you can, you gotta get it out because if you don't do a line or have a smoke or do something, if you don't, if you don't get it out, it's just gonna be all you can think about for the rest of the day. It's just driving you crazy because it floods your mind.

• 56:39Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 10

  I've been addicted to one or two little things.

• 56:46Speaker 10

  And I realized my sex worked the same way.

• 56:49Tucker Carlson?

  I believe that.

• 56:50Speaker 10

  Realized that when I was on a plane, I'm sitting down, you know, a team on a, I'm sitting on the plane, I'm like, yeah, I have a gin tonic girl. And then, you know, like a basketball player, well, not basketball player, they're all gay nerds, but you know, like a football player would sit next to me. Uh, like it would take hold of me. There were times I had to like go to the bathroom and like, you know.

• 57:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 10

  Because I, because I had to get rid of it because it was, it was taking a hold of my mind.

• 57:15Tucker Carlson?

  It sounds like a demon.

• 57:17Speaker 10

  Yeah, because it's what it is. I joke, I say Gorgoroth, the semen demon, you know, he, uh, he comes out, he doesn't, doesn't visit me very often anymore, you know, but he's.

• 57:25Tucker Carlson?

  Totally real. I mean, that stuff is all, it's all real.

• 57:29Speaker 10

  But, but, but it, I, I realized that, so I don't do cocaine anymore, but I, you know, it'll shock people to learn I used to be a bit of a cokehead. Uh, you know, uh, uh, when I was, uh, you know, that rush of dopamine.

• 57:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 57:41Speaker 10

  The rituals associated with it as well, you know, I was like, oh my God, that's, that's how I feel about sex. And that's, that can't be right. It can't be right.

• 57:51Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's a, it's literally, I'm not just talking about gay sex, but any, that is literally a perversion.

• 57:57Speaker 10

  Yes. And it's, and it is a demon and it's also other things too, because these things go hand in hand, you know.

• 58:02Tucker Carlson?

  May I ask how in your own, with this on too personal, how did you wind up?

• 58:07Speaker 10

  There now.

• 58:07Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, I think we are.

• 58:09Speaker 10

  No, but I just told you I wanked on UA 1722.

• 58:15Speaker 10

  I'll crack one out in the bathroom. People are never gonna sit next to me on planes again. I think we're good.

• 58:19Tucker Carlson?

  Anyone who's ever been, well, I drank alcohol in the morning. I mean, you know, anyone who's ever been possessed.

• 58:23Speaker 10

  I'm British, that doesn't count.

• 58:24Tucker Carlson?

  No, I know, but I'm just saying.

• 58:25Speaker 10

  Give me a real one.

• 58:26Tucker Carlson?

  Anyone who's ever been possessed by a, an obsession knows that it can totally destroy your behavior, but, um.

• 58:34Tucker Carlson?

  We spend so much time talking in our society about, you know, gay and it's all good. Of course, gay is good and gay rights are good. In fact, they're the marker of human rights, which are the only human right, really.

• 58:45Speaker 10

  But. It is the only human right people still care about. Oh, I. Your right to be sodomized, your right to wake up in the morning, like, and you're like, oh, okay, you're ready to go, are you? And hear that voice in your mind, and it's not a sultry voice. It's not a sexy voice. It's go and get it. It's, you know, it's like, it's Gorgoroth. Anyway, sorry, I'm trying to interrupt you, but.

• 59:04Tucker Carlson?

  That's dark. I've thankfully never, it's one of the few problems I don't have, but I get it.

• 59:10Speaker 10

  That's why grinders are so dangerous, you know? It's just like within 20 minutes, they can be in the living room.

• 59:14Tucker Carlson?

  You know? I want to ask you about that, but first let me ask you about your own life, because you never get to ask, you know, everyone's telling you how proud they are to be gay, and that's great and all that, but.

• 59:25Speaker 10

  It's a sin, by the way. Pride is a sin.

• 59:27Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I agree with that, but you never get to ask, like, what, how did this, how did you start being gay? Like, specifically described with, you know.

• 59:37Speaker 10

  The way I remember.

• 59:38Tucker Carlson?

  A PG way, right?

• 59:40Speaker 10

  If you insist. No, the way I remember, we've done enough, I know. The way I remember it is I just did it to piss off my mother, but that's not true. I think that's self-mythologization, you know, like I did, and I did take a lot of drug dealers home when I was.

• 59:53Tucker Carlson?

  Were you close to your mom?

• 59:54Speaker 10

  When I was in high school, she married, so I'll answer your question, I'll skip back first, let me do that first. So my dad was in organized crime, funny, charismatic, brilliant. There are things about like, maybe Alex Jones that remind me of him a little bit, just in that kind of like, just in manner, you know? Like a bit of a bruiser, but with a heart, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like he's a bad guy with a heart of gold.

• 1:00:24Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, yeah, I've known a few, yeah.

• 1:00:26Speaker 10

  Yeah, yeah, no, like, I cleave to that kind of personality. It reminds me a little bit of the good bits of my dad, right? But there was another section, which Alex does not have, which, which was that, you know, he was a bad guy and I saw him do really bad things to people. I would come down, I told this story before, but I would come down, sometimes the kitchen door would be closed and I would hear, you know, Nikki, Nikki, I'm giving up a life of crime, I'm turning over a new leaf, I'm not going to do anything that's going to give me any more than 18 months. You know, it's funny, but.

• 1:00:54Tucker Carlson?

  It's all about goals, Milo.

• 1:00:57Speaker 10

  Yeah, but he was a bad guy and I saw him do things that really frightened me. And, um, you know, he was in pubs and nightclubs in, in a, uh, you know, running, running the clubs and the security and sort of like, you know, he's gone now, so I can say it, laundering millions.

• 1:01:14Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Speaker 10

  Blah, blah. Um, uh, between those two, you know, like the security, these security guards are on a hundred and twenty dollars an hour, huh? Yeah, yes, yes, officer.

• 1:01:24Speaker 10

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Aren't you? Tell them, tell them what you're on. It's like a hundred and ten, a hundred and twenty, a hundred and twenty an hour. Yeah. Um, so he used to let me sit in the, in the booth and like do the stamps and I would watch people go in and I'd watch the behaviors of like low socioeconomic, white, working class, like in their twenties, just, you know, just drinking and effing, you know? And, and

• 1:01:51Speaker 10

  and then I saw some of the things my dad did and they would start with that joke. They'd start with that very charming joke. They'd start with that alluring joke. And my dad had like a degree in, he had, my dad had a master's in fine art. He was a great sculptor and painter, but that, but that was the charming bit of him. The dark bit was, you know, like he would say to people, um, can I use bad language on this show?

• 1:02:08Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, yes, you may.

• 1:02:10Speaker 10

  Because you can bleep it, but my dad would say like, listen, just because you're in a wheelchair, don't give you the right to be a cunt. Uh, and he would grab the wheelchair, spin it around and like walk people up to, to, you know, like to parking lot edges and stuff like that. And I'm sitting in the car like,

• 1:02:29Speaker 10

  um, you know, or he'd go collecting, yeah, which means protection rackets. And he would, um, and he would, um, you know, I would overhear like, Julian, could you take your glasses off, please? I was like, I don't want to get glass in my finger. When I poke your fucking eye out.

• 1:02:45Speaker 10

  It's very charming, very funny, like very Tony Soprano, kind of like that kind of ilk, you know? Um, but, but I saw some of it and I think maybe somewhere in my head was like, yeah, if that's being a man, I think I'm out. Because I was a child, I was frightened. And then my mother left him and married a, a new guy and he was very like, sort of a nice guy now, but, but, um,

• 1:03:09Speaker 10

  He would go through all my stuff, like if I had papers, you know, if I was reading something for school or whatever, he would like, when I was out, go through every page and just sort of leave it like this. It's just that I knew that he'd been in there, you know, and that kind of like invasive, like, like just horrifying, like, you know, it was just for a very sensitive artistic child like me. I was already on my way then, you know, having had a much larger than life grandmother who was like, you know, egging this stuff on. And, and by this time I had had some interactions, sexual interactions with a Roman Catholic priest who's dead now, has been dead for a long time. But that had obviously, you know, that fed into it as well.

• 1:03:42Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, wait, stop, stop.

• 1:03:45Tucker Carlson?

  That obviously fed into it. Right. Well, if you're being molested, yeah.

• 1:03:49Speaker 10

  Well, yeah, also the molestation. No, but, but really for me, this is, this is what's important to do. The other stuff first before you get, oh, and I was raped by a priest.

• 1:03:59Speaker 10

  But, but, but this sort of psychological torture, as I, as I experienced it was, you know, sort of like, so I had no private space anywhere. And I knew that all the men in my life were just not things I wanted to become.

• 1:04:11Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:04:12Speaker 10

  And then I cast my, see if you let me get to it. Then I cast my mind back to a lovely old rich man in a frock, Father Michael, and I, and I, and I, who had not been like that with me.

• 1:04:25Speaker 10

  And one of the things that got me into trouble 10 years ago was when I said I felt like the kind of the aggressor in that situation. I didn't know what bad stuff it had done to me. And at that time I didn't.

• 1:04:38Speaker 10

  You know, I made a couple of jokes that got GOP Inc. hot and bothered because they're all faggots. And they weren't, they weren't happy about the, some of the truths that we're talking about today kind of toppling out, you know? And so these things combined, the having what I perceived to be at that time, I perceived as a child to be consensual sexual experiences with an older man who was a kindly, he was kindly sweetheart, you know, he was, I think of him now as a harmless old queen, you know? Of course, what he was doing was not harmless.

• 1:05:14Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you have a right to any opinion you want about the experiences that happened to you.

• 1:05:17Speaker 10

  Apparently not. I've been retired for some time as a result.

• 1:05:22Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I continue to believe that people are allowed to formulate their own opinions about their own lives.

• 1:05:27Speaker 10

  I think you should be able to talk about your rape however you like.

• 1:05:31Tucker Carlson?

  I kind of agree with that.

• 1:05:32Speaker 10

  And not necessarily have to go on live international television and apologize for it like I did, but I'm not bitter.

• 1:05:38Speaker 10

  Unfortunately, unfortunately, I carved out a much, I have a new kind of career and a new life now that I much prefer, more satisfying, lucrative, blah, blah, blah, we'll talk about it later. So I haven't gone crazy like so many of my friends. And it's funny watching them, because I see some of the, in the way that their personalities have become kind of empty and charred and become filled with wickedness, I see some of the things that I have been working the last 10 years to get away from, that created this, this sexual behavior. They've become fagotized.

• 1:06:11Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there does seem to be a connection, but it does, you know, the incidence of closeted homosexuality on the right is like overwhelming. It's like way above what you would imagine statistically probable.

• 1:06:27Speaker 10

  Three straight guys on the right. It's like Alex, you, and I have a floating wild card, just in case I forgot anybody. Who else is there? I mean, maybe the Tates, but who else is there?

• 1:06:38Tucker Carlson?

  What is that? I don't understand.

• 1:06:41Speaker 10

  There is such a long, there's such a long relationship, a long happy marriage between conservative politics and homosexuality. And it's easy to joke about it and say, oh, it's, it's, you know, all of the bells and smells and frocks of the religious dimension to it all, or it's the pomp and circumstance of power.

• 1:07:01Tucker Carlson?

  The New Testament is really tough on homosexuality. So I don't see it as a, that's certainly not a Christian thing.

• 1:07:07Speaker 10

  It's not a Christian thing. But of course, it's easy to understand with the sort of obscene, obese heresies of the type that obtain in this country. I mean, I mean, in a country where prosperity gospel can thrive.

• 1:07:19Tucker Carlson?

  You're right.

• 1:07:20Speaker 10

  Who would be surprised, right? It's not an authentic face, as we would know, I sometimes teach you about your, your denomination, but Episcopalian, Episcopalian churches is as close to us as it's possible to get, and was designed to be a mirror to high Anglicanism, which was indistinguishable from Catholicism. And, you know, at its, sorry, at its best, it's a very similar creed, you know, to, and with a very similar style and similar beliefs, you know. But as soon as you wander away from that. In America, just like mental.

• 1:07:50Tucker Carlson?

  So, but what is, and I'm not attacking anybody and I never wanna out people because I don't, you know, it's not my business, right? I've never done it and, uh, I mean, maybe.

• 1:08:03Speaker 10

  I live, I live to out people. I live to out people. On which subject, Cory Booker?

• 1:08:09Tucker Carlson?

  But what is that? Why is there, why is it so common on the right? Well, of course, on the left too, but on the right with closeted gaze? Like, I don't get that.

• 1:08:20Speaker 10

  Interesting question. I've never heard a really good answer to. I'll be honest with you. Uh, uh, I, I suppose I should have a good answer to that, but I don't. And I, I think, but I think if it's about anything, it's about the exercise of power over others.

• 1:08:31Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:08:32Speaker 10

  Because.

• 1:08:33Tucker Carlson?

  Feel that. I have no idea exactly why that's true, but I feel that that's true.

• 1:08:36Speaker 10

  What's the worst thing about magic? It's not that you can turn a person into a frog or you can, uh, make yourself look more beautiful or you can whatever. What's the worst thing about magic? Is that it robs others of agency that you can make them do things they don't wanna do. The worst and most sinister bit of magic is that you can, uh, trick someone or compel someone against their will to fall in love with you or to, or to throw themselves off a cliff.

• 1:09:02Tucker Carlson?

  Kind of slavery, yeah.

• 1:09:03Speaker 10

  Exactly. The, the most frightening thing about magic is its ability to compel the wills of others.

• 1:09:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:09:09Speaker 10

  And that's what I think homosexuals are seeking when they, because they feel so powerless in their own lives and have this understanding that they are, are broken people without agency over their own sex lives, over their bodies, over that down there. Like, I don't even have control over me, but I'm damn well gonna have control over you. That's, I think, a lot of it. And, and so if you, if you dovetail that in with the.

• 1:09:32Tucker Carlson?

  I, I know you're telling the truth here. I don't fully understand what you're saying, but I, it comports with a lot of what I've seen.

• 1:09:38Speaker 10

  I feel as though if you, if you are a person who intuits that you have a lack of, of control, of power, of, of agency over your own drives, your own desires, your, your own,

• 1:09:52Speaker 10

  urges and the even your biological anatomical, uh, your, your physical responses. Like, I can't stop getting aroused by men. What is that?

• 1:10:06Speaker 10

  You're gonna want to exercise power elsewhere, over others.

• 1:10:09Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, that's so interesting.

• 1:10:11Speaker 10

  And. Being sucked into the nexus of intersectional blah, blah, blah, blah. You might, you're gonna be tempted by explicit magic as well as the implicit magic

• 1:10:22Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's right.

• 1:10:22Speaker 10

  Of whatever. And so, you know, dovetail that with right wing authoritarianism and, and, and, and, and I have to say, I'm sorry to say it, I must say it. Some dimensions, in some respects, I can see that that might be something that attracts homosexuals to the Catholic Church, for instance. Um, just the illusion of being, being, being a bishop.

• 1:10:41Tucker Carlson?

  For National Review magazine, you know, which is...

• 1:10:45Speaker 10

  You don't just say me, it's all right. I'm happy to talk about the, the, the Catholic element of it. I mean, the bishops are all faggots. I mean, they're all whoopsies.

• 1:10:52Tucker Carlson?

  Whoopsies?

• 1:10:54Speaker 10

  Gays. Uh, I like, I like that one.

• 1:10:57Speaker 10

  It contains within it a kernel of the sort of slapstick that I think we have to. Uh, one of the ways I got myself off it was, was, was imagining myself in that situation as ridiculous. Like, I can't even perceive that I would do something so ridiculous. Like laughing at it became, because you know, laughter is the death of arousal, right?

• 1:11:16Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree.

• 1:11:17Speaker 10

  So I read this, some, I read the, or, or, or, or something like that went off in the back of my head.

• 1:11:21Tucker Carlson?

  Anyone who's ever been laughed at naked can tell you that.

• 1:11:22Speaker 10

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, never have, but, um, uh...

• 1:11:25Tucker Carlson?

  I haven't either.

• 1:11:29Speaker 10

  No, but, but I mean, you know, like, uh, it's, it's, it's, I think it's a favorite, famous, like, British, particularly a British, like, injunction, you know, that laughter is the death of arousal or whatever.

• 1:11:39Speaker 10

  And, and I just thought, okay, well, how about if I start thinking about it as ridiculous? Because it is ridiculous. I mean, you and the football team, like, it is ridiculous. Uh, and so that's one of the ways I was, but, but no, this, this, this...

• 1:11:49Tucker Carlson?

  That is so true.

• 1:11:53Speaker 10

  Seeing themselves as powerless even to control their own bodies and knowing on some level, I think homosexuals seek out those places. Um, and, you know, you see on the left as well...

• 1:12:04Tucker Carlson?

  This is why you might want to bomb Iran and Venezuela.

• 1:12:06Speaker 10

  Yeah, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran. What's gayer? What's gayer? I'm not saying it was a practicing homosexual physicist, but wasn't, is there anything gayer than John McCain's, like, bloodlust?

• 1:12:16Tucker Carlson?

  I agree. Or his proteges.

• 1:12:18Speaker 10

  Seen through this prism, I mean, he's even got the fat friend. It's his daughter. Um, you know, like, he's, he even bred, he even bred the fat best friend, you know? Like, is there, is there a, is there a more ostentatious, like, fag-hag in America than Meghan McCain? Uh, you know, she hates herself, she's fat, she's crazy, she's every gay man's dream. Uh, you know, can't dress. Um, uh, you know, she's, she's, she's...

• 1:12:39Tucker Carlson?

  Why is that every gay man's dream?

• 1:12:42Speaker 10

  Because they want to visit upon their female friends, the cruelty they wish that they could perform on their mothers.

• 1:12:56Speaker 10

  They want to make her feel fat and ugly and ridiculous because that's what their mother did to them. And there was no dad around to protect them and their mother was just this overbearing, terrible, you know, it's sort of the Jungian devouring mother.

• 1:13:09Tucker Carlson?

  All of this has been banned in the United States, so I don't even think people are familiar with these concepts anymore.

• 1:13:13Speaker 10

  Right, so I'll try to keep it simple. Imagine like, imagine like a female Lutheran pastor or a female Jewish rabbi and they're this like, you know, hey, it's great to grieve.

• 1:13:29Speaker 10

  That's for a TV show, but, but you know, you're like, one of those, right? This is horrible, overbearing monstrousness that on some level the homosexual knows is what's made him like this. Cause he knows dad wasn't around, so mom did it, right? This is what, by the way, this is why trans was so popular because it got parents off the hook. If you've got a gay kid, you know, you did something, but if your kid has a disease and was born into the wrong body, well, that's not your fault, is it? And you got all this sympathy and all your friends were like, oh, you've got a trans kid, how tough for you. No, you've got a faggot because you raised a faggot because you're a terrible parent. You know, that's what's really going on. They want to avoid that. So instead, no, I'm going to chop it ding dong off and say it's got a disease. Like, that's why it was so popular with single moms.

• 1:14:09Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing, amazing.

• 1:14:11Speaker 10

  That's why, that's why trans was so popular with single moms. Cause it got them off the hook. It means they didn't turn their son gay when they know they did. They know they did. They know they did. And the sons know they did. And the sons grow up being cruel to women

• 1:14:25Speaker 10

  because of what mom did to them.

• 1:14:27Tucker Carlson?

  So they're hostile toward their moms, even though many gay men I've known have had very.

• 1:14:33Speaker 10

  Close relationship, but it's a toxicity, it's a codependent relationship that they know is, they can't. So sometimes they can't visit this cruelty on their mom because they have this close relationship with their mom, but they do it on other women. It's redirected, right? It's transferred onto other, onto other women. Cause they love mommy, like, why would I do that to my mom? But on some level, they know that's, she did that. She did that. So, so. They force women into ever more uncomfortable and ever uglier outfits and throw them down runways on, you know, in 10-inch heels, or they, um.

• 1:15:09Tucker Carlson?

  What? So you think the fashion industry is acting this out?

• 1:15:13Speaker 10

  Of course it is. I mean, what other explanation could there be for the intolerable ugliness of the catwalk?

• 1:15:20Tucker Carlson?

  You are blowing my mind on so many levels, I can't even.

• 1:15:24Speaker 10

  I mean, sure, we used to have, when society was working properly, you would go. Have you ever seen Mrs. Aris Goes to Paris?

• 1:15:31Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:15:31Speaker 10

  It's a lovely movie about a char lady, a, um.

• 1:15:36Tucker Carlson?

  Housekeeper?

• 1:15:36Speaker 10

  Yes, housekeeper, yes, to Americans, yeah. See, I know charwoman, and you've never seen Mrs. Aris Goes to Paris. Um, who, who dreams of one day owning a couture Dior dress, like the person that she works for, right? And she saves up and she saves up and there's calamities with her money and, you know, some boyfriend loses whatever. And eventually she manages to go to Paris and she manages to get the dress, right? And when society was properly ordered, there were these aspirational, um, beauty standards and these aspirational lifestyle goals included gorgeous tailoring and beautiful, um, uh, silhouettes for women that accentuated their, uh, you know, their gorgeous. It's not like that now, is it? It's not like that now?

• 1:16:19Tucker Carlson?

  No, and, and it's funny, I don't know much, I don't know really anything about fashion, but I love female beauty, of course.

• 1:16:25Speaker 10

  But you don't see any of it on the catwalk now?

• 1:16:27Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. In fact, you see.

• 1:16:29Speaker 10

  The opposite.

• 1:16:30Tucker Carlson?

  You see the opposite. You see.

• 1:16:32Speaker 10

  You see.

• 1:16:32Tucker Carlson?

  Manufactured ugliness.

• 1:16:34Speaker 10

  Gay men turning women into the demons they see themselves as. Um, you see gay, look at, look at the most, who's the most celebrated woman on the stage at the moment is, is the, the, um, Gorgon opposite Ariana Grande, whose name I forget now. Um, you know, this, this, this Nosferatu, like black Nosferatu, um, who's, seems to be sucking the life force out of poor Ariana, who's, I think, gonna die within the next few weeks. Uh, if you've seen, if you've seen that singer's physique lately, um, she's sort of, but this, this, this, this, this appalling apparition.

• 1:17:12Speaker 10

  Cynthia or something, I think.

• 1:17:15Speaker 10

  Of course, she's called Cynthia.

• 1:17:18Speaker 10

  You know, with these claws, you know, and you look at the silhouette and you're like, that's literally Nosferatu. It's literally Nosferatu, and I know a gay man did that. And of course, a gay man then put her on stage in Jesus Christ Superstar as our Lord. Did you know that?

• 1:17:31Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:17:32Speaker 10

  Have you seen the person I'm talking about, right?

• 1:17:33Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:17:33Speaker 10

  Okay, well, you'll Google it later, but it's this spindly, it's just straight up goblin looking black woman. Like, and I, you know, I'm not trying to have like a rose, a Roseanne moment, although she was right, you know, whatever. But this woman is like, you know, like ugly by any racial status, just monstrous looking, right? Just, just what our mothers might have called deeply unfortunate, right? And practically circus level.

• 1:18:04Speaker 10

  And of course, she's the heroine of the billion dollar franchise now, Wicked. And she's, and she's on stage as Jesus.

• 1:18:14Speaker 10

  Which, which.

• 1:18:15Tucker Carlson?

  So it's an act of hostility, is what you're saying?

• 1:18:17Speaker 10

  Exactly, exactly. And so these gay men who feel the will of Gorgoroth inside them is like, do it, do it, you know, and turn these women into the demons they see inside themselves. You know, the demons they see acting on them.

• 1:18:34Tucker Carlson?

  This is a lot deeper than I expected when I texted you to have this conversation.

• 1:18:40Speaker 10

  It's more than you would imagine from a guy wearing this T-shirt.

• 1:18:42Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's not, actually. And by the way, can I say one thing that's bothered me for years? When I was a child, there was a lot of creativity coming from gay men in the United States. Like, they were.

• 1:18:52Speaker 10

  Gone now.

• 1:18:53Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 1:18:54Speaker 10

  And it's Dave Rubin is responsible, not him personally, but I mean, like.

• 1:18:58Tucker Carlson?

  But do you know what I'm talking about? I mean.

• 1:18:59Speaker 10

  Of course, and why? Because.

• 1:19:01Tucker Carlson?

  A lot of free thinking, and I was related to one of them, and I spent a lot of time in my house, lived in my house when I was a kid, and gay died of AIDS, you know, but, and had a lot of problems. But in, but I will say. Creative, free-thinking, like truly free-thinking. Gore Vidal was like the archetype.

• 1:19:20Speaker 10

  This is Burkean.

• 1:19:21Tucker Carlson?

  There are no Gore Vidals in gay world that I'm aware of. They're all like conformists and supporting the man. Like, what?

• 1:19:28Speaker 10

  Well, the only ones these days are ex-gay.

• 1:19:31Tucker Carlson?

  But do you know what I'm talking about?

• 1:19:33Speaker 10

  Yes, and it's Burkean. It's because creativity arises out of order. There has to be limits. And if homosexuality is not prescribed as wretched and kept at the fringes where it belongs, creativity dies. And what do you get? Because you don't have those people playing with the limits. You don't have the taboo breakers. You don't have the artists, the creatives, living at the limits of society. They're brought instead. And I have to say-

• 1:19:55Tucker Carlson?

  I think the gay community such as this is one of the least creative, most conformist elements of our society. I never thought I would say that.

• 1:20:02Speaker 10

  They've become the enforcers, just like-

• 1:20:03Tucker Carlson?

  They're the enforcers. They're the Praetorian Guard for Apple and Microsoft. Like, what the hell?

• 1:20:08Speaker 10

  Just like the white women of folklore, who, you know, are responsible for all evil. But they've become like turbocharged Karens, you know? And it's the white women who welcome in the white single moms typically, but single moms generally, I think, who bring in Drag Queen Story Hour. Because there's no gay people like banging down the door-

• 1:20:31Tucker Carlson?

  No, that's right.

• 1:20:32Speaker 10

  To, to, to, there's no gay people like-

• 1:20:33Tucker Carlson?

  So true.

• 1:20:34Speaker 10

  "Excuse me, can I come read your kids? Do you mind? Can I come read stories to your kids?" Like, no, they're not. They're not. But there are demons out there who will come do it if you invite them. Because what do you have to do with demons? Open a portal? Open a doorway? You know?

• 1:20:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I do.

• 1:20:48Speaker 10

  These women open the doorway and in comes, you know, three little pigs.

• 1:20:59Speaker 10

  But the gays now have taken this role. They've taken the mantle over from, you know, what we used to, I mean, we used to say it, didn't we? We used to say, "White single moms are root of all evil." Like, as, you know, kind of half-joking, because of all this crazy stuff they support. But now it's homosexuals. I have to be honest with you. I bear some responsibility for this because it was me 10 years ago mainstreaming homosexuality into the Republican Party. It's a great regret of my life, more so than anything I've done to my own soul, which is a lot. It's the great regret of my life because it has given rise to horrors I never imagined. Let me say Lenin said, you know, all revolutionaries come to hate their children, you know.

• 1:21:41Speaker 10

  Well, the gay horrors that I've given birth to, Lady Margot, Nick Fuentes, I mean, they keep me up at night. They keep me up at night.

• 1:21:47Tucker Carlson?

  Why did you mention Dave Rubin? What's his role?

• 1:21:52Speaker 10

  Well, because he is at the vanguard, along with another of other gays in public life, of introducing children into the equation. Because when you do what I did, which is like gays, like everyone else, you be a normal gay. I remember, and this is the thing I regret more than anything else in the world, there's a video of Ross Matthews in 2017 on Twitter saying, "So I came home and landscapers have been in. We're getting more citrus. You can never have too much citrus." And people were asking me, "Ross, what do you think about this Milo guy?" And I'm like, "Milo? Milo? How low can you go? I don't know who this person is, but I read it." And he says, "I'm getting letters." This Milo guy, he's resigning from Breitbart or something.

• 1:22:33Speaker 10

  And he says, "I'm getting letters from people who say, 'You make it okay that I have a gay son because if he grows up, he doesn't have to be like Ross Matthews.'" And I was like, "No, they should be like Ross Matthews. They should be like Ross Matthews. They shouldn't be like Dave Rubin, like you might not even know unless you've watched him for a little bit." Because this domesticity of homosexuals has killed all the things that were good about gays that made them like tolerable and instead has given them this grotesque parody, this simulacrum of domesticity, which has, of course, in their never-ending hunger, expanded to include babies.

• 1:23:12Speaker 10

  And now we have the Buttigieg couple buying black children.

• 1:23:18Tucker Carlson?

  I thought you weren't allowed to buy people. I thought-

• 1:23:21Speaker 10

  Oh, no, you can if you're homosexual.

• 1:23:23Tucker Carlson?

  But I thought that was-

• 1:23:24Speaker 10

  It's called adoption or surrogacy, whatever, but you can buy them.

• 1:23:25Tucker Carlson?

  I thought it was called slavery.

• 1:23:27Speaker 10

  In fact, you have to buy them because it's really, and it's quite expensive.

• 1:23:31Tucker Carlson?

  In some online slave market or-

• 1:23:33Speaker 10

  Doesn't cover, no, no, no, it's, it's the government. Um, uh, and as you know, um, but Dave Rubin has like Franken sperm babies. Like he, he mixed his effluvia with that of his husband. I mean, this is real. This is physical. Gave it a stir and hoped for the best. And whichever one we get, we get implanted it in some highly paid woman. We'll never know the name of the real mother of those children. And, uh, you know, he and his, he and his, his, uh, uh, catamite are on, on, on the internet. You know, with these signs like it's coming with these two dates.

• 1:24:15Speaker 10

  And I'm like, yeah, your damnation, that's the date you're counting down to. The, the, the, the date you're-

• 1:24:23Tucker Carlson?

  How was that conservative?

• 1:24:25Speaker 10

  Oh, because it's family, you see, because it's a, it's, well, the, the, the, the sleight of hand like that's going on is they're like, well, gays are just like everybody else. So we should behave like everybody else, which means we should have kids. And if we can't physically have kids because our sex is this like demonic sterile horror show, then we'll buy them. And then we'll look like we've got it. I mean, that's, that's how bad it is. That's how bad it is. And so you have the, I love, I don't know if it says anything about Republicans versus Democrats, but, but you have like Dave Rubin, who, for whom buying a child is not good enough. It must be his own, you know, like, like, like the, the, the conceit of that. So on the right, you've got this sort of techno conceit Franken baby.

• 1:25:12Speaker 10

  And on the left, they adopt blacks.

• 1:25:16Speaker 10

  Like, you know, you've got these two wispy, wiry faggots who adopted two black babies.

• 1:25:24Speaker 10

  I mean, isn't Buttigieg just the most interesting character of our age? Like, I mean, he doesn't look like he looks like an intensely boring homosexual. Like, it's everything gay people shouldn't be. But it's so interesting, the fact that, I mean, clearly, he wasn't gay, like, at the beginning.

• 1:25:36Tucker Carlson?

  Well, he had girlfriends.

• 1:25:37Speaker 10

  Right, so he wasn't gay, but he made himself gay.

• 1:25:40Tucker Carlson?

  I made that point because actually I had gay men who worked for me, who were more in tune with this than me. I'm not in tune at all. I just didn't, I thought Buttigieg was a joke, but they said, well, he's not really gay. And I was like, so what does that mean?

• 1:25:56Speaker 10

  Well, his sexuality, like all homosexuality, is a function, a product, a symptom. What is his homosexuality a symptom of? It's of his vaulting ambition. Buttigieg timed it perfectly so that post Obama, the gay guy with the black kids, perfect presidential candidate.

• 1:26:20Tucker Carlson?

  So to the, I think to the heterosexual brain, it's like, are you really saying a guy would switch his, quote, sexuality in order to get a better job?

• 1:26:29Speaker 10

  Yeah, yeah, women do it all the time. Lesbianism, it's got nothing to do with male homosexuality. Just, everybody knows they got a college girlfriend who was a, they got a girlfriend who was a lesbian in college. Yeah, everybody, like, you could barely find a woman who hasn't played around with a woman. Queen Victoria didn't believe that this was sex or that two women would do that with one another, and she refused to accept that women even did that, very wisely, realizing that lesbianism wasn't real. And so lesbianism wasn't illegal in Britain for a long time when male homosexuality was. But homosexuality is known in the studies to be far more malleable. Women go backwards and forwards between men all the time.

• 1:27:11Speaker 10

  And, you know, lesbianism is like, is a, is a, um, social and political decision. It's a series of social and political decisions. I mean, women want companionship, they want stability, they want safety. They can find that in a woman, you know, like, you can find that in a Butch Dyke just as easily as you can find it in an American man these days.

• 1:27:29Speaker 10

  I'm sorry, you know, at least, at least she can cash in her Harley Davidson. What have you got?

• 1:27:37Speaker 10

  But, um, sorry.

• 1:27:40Speaker 10

  Love the jackets, go for something. Uh, you know, that warehouse full of eyeliner you've got. No, I, I, um, I joke, but only slightly. We've seen women do it, seen women do it. They do all the time. They choose to be lesbians all the time. So, so.

• 1:27:57Tucker Carlson?

  So you don't find it, you don't find the.

• 1:27:59Speaker 10

  I realize it sounds extreme and implausible.

• 1:28:01Tucker Carlson?

  Well, to, I, to me, anyway, it's like, really?

• 1:28:04Speaker 10

  But we're dealing with a sociopath here. We're dealing with somebody who's, who's entirely divorced from his own emotional, from his own feelings. Right? We're dealing from somebody, we're dealing with somebody who will do anything, go anywhere, be anything. I mean, are you telling me like, is it, is it so crazy that he would get, uh, they would have a boyfriend and, and adopt these kids? Is it so much more insane than a gay man, uh, uh, living in the closet and having, and having a wife and having sex with her and producing children with her? Is that so nuts? But okay, so there'll probably be more sex involved.

• 1:28:38Tucker Carlson?

  Fair, fair.

• 1:28:38Speaker 10

  Is it, is it, like, isn't it just like that on steroids? Like, is it so bonkers? And that's where gay people should be, by the way, in the closet, praying to get better.

• 1:28:48Speaker 10

  But, but is it so wild? It's not wild.

• 1:28:50Tucker Carlson?

  No, you're right. And, and I just hadn't thought of it that.

• 1:28:53Speaker 10

  And, and gay men have been doing that for centuries.

• 1:28:56Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I know, I know a bunch of them.

• 1:28:58Speaker 10

  Of course, we, well, you work in, and I used to work in, uh, conservative media and, uh, uh,

• 1:29:06Speaker 10

  it's all of them, it's everybody, it's everybody. They're all faggots. They're all gay, all of them are gay, all of them are gay, like everyone is gay.

• 1:29:13Tucker Carlson?

  I haven't said anything about it for like 30 years because of my just general Anglo commitment to not get involved in other people's business. But it's so noticeable. I just don't know what I, clearly there's something going on here.

• 1:29:26Speaker 10

  Yeah, I think, I think it's the exercise of power of others, as we talked about.

• 1:29:29Tucker Carlson?

  I think it's really smart.

• 1:29:31Speaker 10

  But in this case, the Buttigieg, I find him fascinating because, because he's.

• 1:29:38Speaker 10

  He's misjudged, but only slightly, what would be required to be the perfect presidential candidate, like in 2028, 2024, right? And he starts off and he's got girlfriends, he's in the military. He's living a normal, like, American life. And then, Chayson. I mean, like, if you wanna, they say that term, ex gays often go for, like, uh, uh, Near Eastern women, um, because they're not sexually demanding and they look like boys from behind, you know, like some Malaysian girls, um, you know, when they come to have wives. But isn't Chayson kind of like the closest thing you can get to a girl? Closest, you know, sort of, if you need a similar, like, room of a woman, you know,

• 1:30:22Speaker 10

  flip him over, it could be a girl, you know?

• 1:30:25Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think I know what Chayson looks like.

• 1:30:28Speaker 10

  His, well, you're blessed. His husband is, is, if you don't know that, then you might know the expression aged out twink, or, uh, but, but, um, he, he's about as the most, the most effeminate man that you could, you could.

• 1:30:42Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, is that true?

• 1:30:43Speaker 10

  Yeah. Not in the kind of, like, so, so this.

• 1:30:47Tucker Carlson?

  Whereas Pete has that kind of fake radio voice, like, woo.

• 1:30:49Speaker 10

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you know, you know, yeah, so, so you know. And it is a fake voice, because you can get, you can find recordings of him earlier, and, and he's got more into it, the more gay his life has become.

• 1:31:03Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:31:03Speaker 10

  Yeah, like, the, the.

• 1:31:04Tucker Carlson?

  The bass.

• 1:31:05Speaker 10

  The diaphragm.

• 1:31:06Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:07Speaker 10

  It's like, talk from your stomach, Pete, talk from your stomach. You can imagine Chayson before he goes on stage. Remember babes, from your stomach, he's like, eh, yeah, yeah, yeah. From down here. Just imagine, I don't know, remember what Lindsay said, uh, you know, the, the speech coach, you taught him how to sound heterosexual, uh, you know, whatever. But no, no, the, the, it's, it's going down, it's like sinking, it's like there's something in there. It's like, working its way through this, like, achingly slow form of peristalsis. Gradually finding its way down. Eventually, he's gonna sound like Gorgoroth, um, uh, you know, he's gonna, when he realizes his full potential. No, he, he, um.

• 1:31:47Speaker 10

  He's fake. He's not gay. He's not gay. He's not gay. There's a doubt in my mind. He's not gay, but he's performing homosexuality because, including having the sex, you know, but probably not a lot of it. I mean, you don't imagine them, you know, well, I don't want you to imagine anything because I don't, I don't wish to leave a unpleasant taste in your mouth like that. But, but I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll suggest to your viewers that there, it's not a particularly sexually active couple, which might also explain how it's possible for somebody to do that. Right? In the same way that a, that a DL gay guy wouldn't be a particularly sexual husband. Right?

• 1:32:26Tucker Carlson?

  Are gay marriages monogamous?

• 1:32:30Speaker 10

  That's funny.

• 1:32:32Speaker 10

  Oh, you mean it?

• 1:32:33Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I sensed that they're not, having known some.

• 1:32:37Tucker Carlson?

  But are any, I guess is what I would ask.

• 1:32:39Speaker 10

  I mean, I think you get that sort of elderly antiques dealer in Kentucky.

• 1:32:44Tucker Carlson?

  You know, you get that. That's so good.

• 1:32:46Speaker 10

  You know, we have a senator like that, who, you know, I think if, if, if he, if he found a husband who was prepared to put up with, I really shouldn't, I really shouldn't, but look up the ladybugs. Look up, look up, look up his ladybugs. It's on, it's on the internet.

• 1:33:03Tucker Carlson?

  We have so many senators like that. It's crazy.

• 1:33:06Speaker 10

  Well, I think people know the one I mean.

• 1:33:07Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, the actual one from Kentucky?

• 1:33:09Speaker 10

  No, no, no.

• 1:33:12Speaker 10

  Little bit over, you know, you can imagine he sort of invites his friend Jasper in for a minute julep, you know, and it's like, you want to just sit there while I get myself dusted up? You know, like, like, yes, of course, there are loads, loads, but I'm thinking of the one in particular that everybody kind of, you said you don't out people, so I feel like.

• 1:33:31Tucker Carlson?

  No, sorry, sorry, sorry. I'm not gonna use Mitch McConnell's name, but.

• 1:33:36Speaker 10

  It was Lindsey Graham. Oh, sorry. But, but, no, I, it's a shame, isn't it? This, the falling over, the, the, like, how long are you gonna stagger on? They're determined to turn themselves into the goblins that dictate their behavior.

• 1:33:49Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's the thing about, and I'm not, yeah, it's that there's, there's a bloodthirstiness that's just really distressing and offensive to me, actually.

• 1:33:58Speaker 10

  But think about it like this. The sassy, vindictive, catty cruelty of the homosexual. Imagine what he'd be like if you gave him a nuclear button. Right? Sounds stupid, but it's a continuum. It's a spectrum, right? And so those gays that have the will to power, they go get some and they use it to bomb people or to bully or to, I mean, how much must they all get off on the fact that they are all having sex and nobody would dare touch it? Nobody outs them, nobody says a thing? And all living lies to their concern?

• 1:34:39Speaker 10

  This is, I mean, we were joking earlier about outing people, but like, that's why I have a thirst for it because it's hypocrisy. It's public hypocrisy. I'm not interested in outing like, you know, Joe Simpson who has a corner store. Right. I'm interested in outing people who are misrepresenting themselves to the public. And, you know, somebody just got married with wedding pictures and with engagement pictures. That's insane. So absurd. I know. I figured him out, by the way. I figured him out. I could never work out this guy. I was like, what is it that's off with you? And I realized he always wants a bigger laugh than the joke he tells commands. And it's because he's actually obese, but in the body of a merely fat person. Like, if you think of him as like 400 pounds, he suddenly makes sense.

• 1:35:22Speaker 10

  Cause he's always doing this, you know? And you're like, oh, you're a fat person. You're a giant fat person. So he's like a really fat gay in the body of like a merely slightly overweight gay. And suddenly his personality begins to make sense. He does all these like fat, you know, he's got these like fat tics that fat people do to like get a bigger laugh than their wit would normally allow for, you know? You know what I mean? Like, and everybody laughs long anyway because they're fat. You know, the fat people are just funny because they're fat. You know, and he's like, he's like, he acts like he's funny because he's fat, but he's not fat. You're talking about Cory Booker? Yeah.

• 1:36:01Tucker Carlson?

  So just back to the question though, is, Sue, is monogamy an expectation in a gay marriage?

• 1:36:06Speaker 10

  No, I think, well, I think it's an aspiration. I think it's a, I think it's a stated ambition.

• 1:36:15Speaker 10

  But you know, like all ambitions, you know, we, we, we state something we know we can never reach because in grasping for it, we, we, you know, we achieve greatness. And so, so maybe they only have sex with 20 people a year instead of 200. You know, and that's, that's gay, that's, that would be, that would be gay fidelity. That would be gay. Really? Oh, yeah. I'm not even gonna, I mean, I maybe I'll tell you, but like. Because there's no woman there to enforce it. So I've always. Exactly. And the, and normally no kids to the blah, blah, blah. How could you lose your children? But this is why, this is why living, um, this is why living on the DL in marriage with a woman is the optimum environment for a homosexual.

• 1:36:58Speaker 10

  Because all of the social cues are pushing them to do the, what they know that they should be doing anyway, which is working on eradicating these disordered urges as the religious, uh, um, um, religious, uh, uh, ex-gays would put it, or, or, or, um, unwanted same-sex attraction as the reparative therapists would have it.

• 1:37:23Speaker 10

  Whatever it is, all of the, the cues and the pressure is moving them in the right way. And so, you know, I mean, that's, that's, it's, it's good. Alan Turing, for God's sake, you know, was living like that. Who was? Alan Turing, you know, the. Yeah. He was living like that. And they castrated him anyway, which seems a bit mean to me after the war, after he'd won the war for them. It's like, okay, that's, that's all brilliant, but we're gonna chemically castrate, you know? It's a little bit gratuitous to me. It's like, oh, oh, oh, god, god, god. Let him crack one out after he won the bloody war for you.

• 1:37:53Speaker 10

  All right, all right. So Britain can, uh, Brits can be savage like that, you know? So do you know, um, like, the happiness level of people who are involved in, like, promiscuous gay sex? Like, what's it?

• 1:38:11Speaker 10

  When you live that kind of life, you're living deep in profound denial. And it comes from... I read something in, maybe it's the Atlantic or Mother Jones, of all places. Some left-wing gay guy who just wrote about this really beautifully, I'll try to find it on Twitter after this, but he said, "When homosexuals are young, they realize they have to put on different faces for different people." I guess the racial equivalent would be code switching, right? Yeah. And the effect of this on a person who has disordered urges, unlike someone who just happens to be black, is that it begins to create cracks and ultimately that turn into shards in the personality, like bits of the personality

• 1:38:54Speaker 10

  burst ping off like a chandelier that filled the floor. It's so sad. Yeah, and it produces the space for profound denial of the type that most homosexual men find themselves in, where that flooding of addictive urge is mistaken for healthy and normal sexual attraction. And so I kind of stumbled when I looked into... I just woke up one day and I was like, and I was married to a dude, to my shame, and I... who's now like the ex-wife from Hell, my God. Look, if there's no other reason to not be gay,

• 1:39:38Speaker 10

  just imagine how bad a black homosexual ex-wife is. Oh, like... I'm not even gonna go there. You don't even wanna know. It's like, oh, sorry, it was two sports cars a year, wasn't enough. Okay, all right, okay, all right. Done even. But when I woke up one day, and I woke up one day and I looked over and I was like, "Oh, no, I don't wanna do this anymore." Like, hell is real, I don't wanna go there. And it just hit me like, after... It was growing, you know why? I was just like, "No, no, I really don't wanna go there." And I, "No, blah." "What am I doing?" And the way that I started to address this...

• 1:40:21Speaker 10

  I kind of stumbled upon a crude version of what the enlightened, like, they don't call it conversion therapy anymore, they call it reintegrative therapy. Because it's reintegrating those shards and those, and those broken, and those broken bits of like memory that lead to the wrong output. We can talk in detail if you want to, but I, I stumbled upon kind of like a crude version of that. So when I was trying to stop myself from doing this stuff, I was using like hot oil on my thighs. I was like doing things, you know, like, like, like that hurt. And I was trying to rewire my brain. Because I read a lot of, you know, psychology anthropology books and stuff like that, so I thought, I thought I know.

• 1:41:00Tucker Carlson?

  Sex urge is such a basic and powerful urge. It's gotta be hard.

• 1:41:04Speaker 10

  I thought I knew what I was doing. So I was like, every time I get aroused, I'm gonna go and do something that hurts, you know? And so I took the, I took the, you know, like pay my taxes, no, you know, I, I, um, you know, like having sex with black people. No, no, no. Um, I, I did something immediately to try to redo that. And there's, there's a much better way to do it, which I can talk to you about, but, I was, I was, I think I was recognizing in that, that I had this, that something had jumped the tracks in my brain, right? And I was having a, an incorrect response to a particular stimulus as a result of damage, trauma, whatever. And that, um,

• 1:41:49Speaker 10

  and that I was a little bit like being a PTSD victim or, or some other kinds of sexual deviance, right? Um, and that I, I knew, I knew that I could train my way out of it because at the same time I had been returning to the Catholic faith of my childhood. And I had been speaking to a dear friend. She's a very brilliant professor in Chicago. She's a world's leading expert on Marian devotion in the Middle Ages. And she's, you know, she was, she was, she was kind of like feeding me this rich material about, you know, training the soul in virtue. And, and, and I was, I was like, okay, well, if I can do that, because I'm getting pretty good at that, like, what about this?

• 1:42:31Speaker 10

  And so I did this stuff. And, and I, and I got myself as far as celibacy, which is where I'm coming, in January, it'll be five years.

• 1:42:40Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, celibacy?

• 1:42:41Speaker 10

  Yeah. And the good thing about the male libido is the less you have, the less you want, which married men can tell you is this is the only reason they're still married.

• 1:42:52Tucker Carlson?

  You know, it's like sugar, though. The more you eat, the more you want.

• 1:42:55Speaker 10

  It is exactly like that. Why? Because it's an appetite, not a sexual orientation. It's an appetite and addiction. And the more that you have cocaine or Adderall, the more that you are likely on a given Tuesday afternoon to be like, oh, lime would be nice. Or, oh, why don't I have a little, little, little instant release 30 milligrams? That'll get me through the day, you know? It works the same. It functions the same. It is the same.

• 1:43:20Tucker Carlson?

  I remember reading during the AIDS period about, you know, like the number of sexual partners a year, which is like crazy high. I think it's all banned and they're not allowed to talk about it anymore. But, um, and thinking, you know, if those were all like hot girls, would I want to sleep with 75? Probably.

• 1:43:37Speaker 10

  You wouldn't be able to get through it.

• 1:43:39Tucker Carlson?

  Honestly, I don't think most straight men would. It'd be like, yeah, you know, I mean, you know, men are obviously pigs and like variety and all this.

• 1:43:45Speaker 10

  You've hit on something real, which is that.

• 1:43:47Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I'm trying to be as honest as I can. I'm sure I'll be mocked for this, but I did wonder like if it's, because you're clear there's something wrong with the act itself. If you're doing it with that many people, right?

• 1:43:56Speaker 10

  Yes. Now there's a component of it where it's like the, the women are setting up the friction there. They're the ones with the precious jewel that, you know, that they're setting up barriers to, right? Men will put out, like if, if a man wants to have sex, like they're normally the person asking for the sex, right? They're normally the ones who are seeking the sex. Women, normally the ones who are, I wouldn't say withholding it, but regulating the access to it, let's say, as the enforcers.

• 1:44:24Tucker Carlson?

  For sure.

• 1:44:26Speaker 10

  Take that away and of course, and put two men on there and you're like, well, if they both want it, they're both going to do it all the time.

• 1:44:31Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:44:32Speaker 10

  But that doesn't really explain.

• 1:44:34Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. That was my thought. It's like if there was no limit. If, if good looking women wanted us, this is my younger self thinking this, if they wanted to sleep with me as much as I want to sleep with them, I still don't think I'd sleep with 75 of them in a year because that sounds kind of gross.

• 1:44:50Speaker 10

  Well, I mean, by gay standards, that's practically celibate.

• 1:44:56Speaker 10

  I mean, maybe not these days with the boring gays that adopt the children who don't have sex with each other and just molest the kids. But, um, but by, by the old fashioned gay standards of the taboo breaking promiscuous. I mean, I grew up in London, taking a lot of fucking drugs, going to a lot of clubs, going to Ibiza. And then of course, you know, like in London, you had a, a circuit of clubs, like Trade and Beyond and, and, and DTPM, whatever. It was like a circuit every weekend. It was four continuous days, right? Which you could only really do with drugs and, and during that time stops off for sex. I mean, seventy five is like, takes you up to February. Actually?

• 1:45:39Speaker 10

  I mean, I probably was a lot worse than usual and I group scenarios and whatever, but yeah. I mean, it doesn't fully explain the grotesque extent. And by the way, it's always the, the gay couples that are basically lesbians that live sterile, like live these like sexless lives. Who are incensed when you dare to talk about gay promiscuity. It's not because gay promiscuity doesn't exist, it's because they don't have access to it.

• 1:46:03Speaker 10

  But most gays do. And what, what we just, what we are thinking about in our, in our hypothetical example of, of, of two men doesn't explain the full grotesque extent of it. And it's because there is something unsatisfying about gay sex.

• 1:46:21Speaker 10

  Well, that was my assumption. And, and you're correct. And it's, it's, it's.

• 1:46:28Speaker 10

  So Catholic natural law and, and, and the way that law of therapy is right, they start with this presumption that things are working properly. When they are performing the function for which they were designed. Yes. Right? Clearly, a, an erect member going into the wrong orifice is not doing, um, is not performing the function for which it was designed. Right? So sex that ends that way too, cannot possibly be satisfying. It's not permissible spiritually, it's not satisfying physically.

• 1:47:00Speaker 10

  So if you take Catholic Church teaching, for instance.

• 1:47:02Tucker Carlson?

  No, I think that's real and that's true for eating and it's true for beauty and it's true for.

• 1:47:07Speaker 10

  The sex is sterile.

• 1:47:08Tucker Carlson?

  No, but every pleasure that's like a righteous pleasure satisfies you.

• 1:47:13Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 1:47:13Tucker Carlson?

  I don't need 15 of them, right?

• 1:47:15Speaker 10

  But like justice feels good, you know, when you see somebody wicked get their comeuppance and you're like, yeah, and that feels like a lot of, that feels, it feels a little like, as you say, righteous pleasures. All of which tend toward the kind of satisfaction that you, that a lot of people describe getting in holy communion.

• 1:47:36Tucker Carlson?

  It's filling.

• 1:47:37Speaker 10

  Right? It is filling. It is filling. That little wafer is very filling. Right? The further you get away from that, the less satisfying things are by volume, if you like. That tiny little wafer, which is complete, you feel like you don't need to feel, eat, drink, think, pray, anything else the rest of your whole life, you just feel like perfect in that moment. Like, like you have, because you are just in that brief moment in dialogue with, with our Lord in some fashion.

• 1:48:08Speaker 10

  And you're like, that's my Sunday vibes, you know, like, or whatever it is. And it's not till Monday morning that life kind of comes, comes back at you. The further you get away from that, the more stuff you need to approach the same level of satisfaction. Think about like, the fake sugar you have, right? Over here, the, the cornstarch, whatever it's called. How much Hershey's chocolate you have to eat to feel the same as two squares of Capri's.

• 1:48:35Tucker Carlson?

  Or how many Reese's Peanut Butter Cups equals a steak?

• 1:48:38Speaker 10

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 1:48:40Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I really noticed that. I mean, by the way, you, you know, Halloween candy, you can, I don't know. I don't know much about calories, but you could eat like millions of calories, but you can't eat six pounds of steak. It's just not possible.

• 1:48:52Speaker 10

  But the point is that not the sugar is bad necessarily, but that this fake sugar that has that waxy taste. That's not really what, you need so much more of it to feel satisfied, to get your sugar here.

• 1:49:03Tucker Carlson?

  That is totally right.

• 1:49:04Speaker 10

  And in so doing, you have so many more calories, right? And you start to get fat and, and, and then, then, then you need not just six cokes, but eight cokes a day.

• 1:49:15Tucker Carlson?

  That's totally right.

• 1:49:16Speaker 10

  Instead of one, like, so. Homosexual sex is sterile. It's not capable of leading to production. Excuse me, of procreation, right? You cannot make a baby with gay sex. It is spiritually unsatisfying. In addition to being, and of course, these two things are connected, physically unsatisfying too. And when you start to think about like, everything working, performing the function for which it was designed, like doing that for which it was intended, you start to realize why gay sex is like, is not hitting, you know? And this is the basis, this is the start, this is where the therapy begins. It begins.

• 1:49:56Tucker Carlson?

  Can I just ask you one last question before you describe how your life has changed?

• 1:49:59Speaker 10

  I don't mean to rush onto that.

• 1:50:01Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, no, I'm fascinated by it, but I.

• 1:50:03Speaker 10

  I just find it so interesting.

• 1:50:03Tucker Carlson?

  So you spent like an hour and 20 minutes describing the hell that you lived. You thought it was hellish. You laughed. And you, it sounds like you feel better and certainly resolved. But you're not encouraged to feel that way. Like, there's something about the life that you live that's treated like a gang initiation or something like, you can check in, but you can never leave. Like, you're not welcome to leave.

• 1:50:28Speaker 10

  Well, just look at the comments, you get like, forgive the language, but under every post that I will make online or every, every, you know, on the rare occasion I might say something about this in an interview, one phrase keeps popping up over and over again in the comments. You can't unsuck a dick. Meaning, there's no salvation for you. Once you're gay, you're gay. You're gay. You're homosexual.

• 1:50:53Tucker Carlson?

  But who's pushing that?

• 1:50:55Speaker 10

  The stain that that leaves, right? Which is profoundly un-Christian. I mean, we think about Isaiah, right? You know, your sins may be scarlet, but they'll be washed white as snow.

• 1:51:04Tucker Carlson?

  Dude, Saul became Paul.

• 1:51:06Speaker 10

  Right, doesn't exist for these people. And it's often leftist, but not always, insisting on this, the permanence of this stain. And there's more to it than merely just, I hate you and I want you to hurt, or you're doing something stupid or whatever. It's, it's, it's, there's something more going on. And it's.

• 1:51:29Speaker 10

  People are terrified by the idea that

• 1:51:34Speaker 10

  this might not be an intrinsic

• 1:51:38Speaker 10

  part of a person's personality or nature.

• 1:51:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. Why? Why are they afraid of that? I thought we were for personal choice.

• 1:51:45Speaker 10

  Well, we're all a bit afraid of that, aren't we? Because we're all kind of like, you know, we see other people who are doing well in life or who have got themselves out of a sticky situation or, you know, who left their phone on the table when they went to the bathroom in break or whatever. And who lash out against others who do seem to be achieving something redemptive. And isn't it true that one of those characterizations of the demons is that they're, you know, in the presence of the light, in the presence of good, of the word of God, they hiss and spit, right? And it's not necessarily these people are gay themselves, but they, to confront the horror

• 1:52:31Speaker 10

  that a gay person might be able to un-gay means that whatever you've got going in your life, you could fix easy, you know? But you don't want to, do you? You don't want to get better. You don't want to stop. Because if he can stop having sex with men,

• 1:52:48Speaker 10

  knowing what a powerful compulsion urge that is for most men, you know? That might mean I have to stop drinking. That might mean I have to stop taking drugs. That might mean I have to stop being a fat ass. That might mean I have to stop being cruel, being vindictive, abusive, malicious. And I think that part of it is certainly that we have become a society that encourages vice over virtue, that aggressively pushes sin.

• 1:53:18Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:53:18Speaker 10

  Why? Because...

• 1:53:21Speaker 10

  Dumb, dependent people are easier to control because dumb, dependent people living paycheck to paycheck enslaved not only to and we and we live in a particularly evil

• 1:53:35Speaker 10

  environment now where we're not just enslaved to things. We're enslaved to the mechanisms by which we get them. Compound interest, you know, you know, our, our, our car payments, all this kind of stuff. 50 year mortgages. Yeah, thanks, Trump. How many years of that are we just paying down the interest before we own a brick in the house? You know, we're now enslaved to these, these like meta addictions or these additional layers of problem, which mean that we can't even do anything about our lives because one missed paycheck. You know, we can't do anything.

• 1:54:04Tucker Carlson?

  Totally true.

• 1:54:05Speaker 10

  Can't do anything about it because we're locked in from every single angle into our addictions, into our compulsions, into the bad food that we eat at the supermarket because it's cheap and the, and the TV we watch, we know we shouldn't. And the video games that are fine by themselves, but which, you know, 20 hours, 20 hours over the weekend. Like, that's a lot, bro. You know, just all this stuff and it's packaged and it's pushed and it's encouraged. And just look at the sponsors. I looked at the sponsors of Jimmy Kimmel's show when he was taken off the air. And it's donuts and banks. Look at the sponsors of Jimmy Kimmel's show and you're like, oh my God.

• 1:54:43Speaker 10

  Like, these are evil, wretched, terrible people who just want you fat, stupid and quiet.

• 1:54:51Tucker Carlson?

  There's no question in my mind, you're telling the truth. It's too obvious.

• 1:54:55Speaker 10

  And what you dumb and dependent.

• 1:54:57Tucker Carlson?

  And do you think the relentless promotion of homosexuality is part of that? Because it is relentlessly, tirelessly promoted, period. Anyone says it's not, it's a liar.

• 1:55:07Speaker 10

  What is more incapacitating? What is more incapacitating, having no control over your own sexual desires? And just look at how comfy.

• 1:55:15Speaker 10

  Capitalism has made itself with homosexuals. Like, "Oh, you've got no kids? Well, perhaps you'd like these designer clothes." "Oh, you don't have any dependents? Well, maybe you'd like to spend way more than you should on this cruise." You know, or whatever. I mean, boat cruise. You know, "Oh, you, you, you, um, all your disposable income is yours to spend? Well, perhaps you'd like to try..." We do have a special this evening, sir. You know, like our, our pan-roasted blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, the, the, they used to call it the pink pound in England. This disproportionate ability of gays to spend, which has a reinforcing effect. It's like a, like a, like a, um, I don't know the economic term, but you probably do.

• 1:55:59Speaker 10

  It has like a magnifying or a fortifying effect. Because of course gays spend more, so you market more to gays. So you get more, you know, so you get more of them. And then other people begin to acquire gay taste, which has happened to women and is now happening to men. Because it's seen as a prestige or a luxury or a desirable kind of lifestyle. So you see men as the charming ladies of YouTube would tell us, faggot ass, who are, are acquiring gay habits and get like, I mean, like soul cycle for it. I mean, please, what are these people doing? It's like, "You're in Lycra and you want me to see your ass? Got it." Because this is doing nothing.

• 1:56:40Tucker Carlson?

  What other gay habits are men acquiring?

• 1:56:43Speaker 10

  Definitely food, which, I mean, like, if you're, if you're a chap. So I was in a hotel last night as I was thinking about this show. And I looked at the menu and I was like, "There's nothing on here for men." It was all these like seafood, um, a bit, but, but, but hand, whatever. And the guy that was serving me had a huge ginger beard. God bless him. And, and I said, "You don't eat here." And he said, "Well..." And I said, "You don't eat here. Where do you eat?" And he said, "Oh, fine." And I said, "Is there anything on here that you would eat aside from this?" And he didn't say how big the filet was, but I was like, "What is it? Six ounces? We'd need four of those." And he was like, "Yeah."

• 1:57:27Speaker 10

  And I was like, "You work here and you're just like, you wouldn't eat anything because there's nothing for men on the menu." Because it's all this like airy, fairy, unsatisfying, calorie-rich, full of like, you know, flavor, but no protein food for girls. All food for girls. Look at the menu in your favorite restaurant. Look at the menu in every restaurant. There's no food for men on it.

• 1:57:48Speaker 10

  I mean, like, where, where is it? Even, even like a heroic meat like lamb.

• 1:57:55Speaker 10

  It's like seventy eight dollars to this little, this little like.

• 1:58:00Speaker 10

  Thanks, thanks so much. What is that? That's not man food. So food, for sure. I mean, clothing, let's not even.

• 1:58:11Speaker 10

  Sexual habits. Women have become thagotized by, by the promiscuity culture that their gay best friends, you know, like to, to sort of have a nudge and a wink kind of relationship with like, oh, I don't do it, but who's this? Oh, just Jamal.

• 1:58:26Speaker 10

  You know.

• 1:58:29Speaker 10

  Who's this? That's not the guy that you were with like three days ago. Quiet, girl. Sorry about her. You know, like, just all that kind of stuff. And, and, and men, just the, the way in which the self-destructive

• 1:58:44Speaker 10

  sacrifice, a self-sacrifice, the, the relinquishment of, of, of the will to the most addictive version of everything is very gay. Very gay. The most addictive version. Version of everything. So like, if gay sex is like addiction, where it just floods your mind with like the chemicals, where you can't get it out of your head, like we were talking about right at the beginning. Yeah. Well, the food has become like that and the clothes have become like that. And, and, you know, like, men buying designer clothes has always been a bit sus to me. Oh, I totally agree. Like, I'm, I mean, I do it because I'm like, I've got about another three years where I can still get away with this and then I'm gonna have to just be straight.

• 1:59:25Speaker 10

  Well, I can still do it, you know, and then I'm gonna have to find like some, some like, I don't know if I have to find my own nudge and a wink thing like, oh, no, they're not Dr. Simone, they're Aralano. Oh, that's the, it's the, it's the late Pope Benedict XVI's favorite shoemaker from Raj. You're thagotized. Stop it. You know, I'm gonna have to give all this up. But, but somebody who's been heterosexual all their life, like, what are you doing in Dior? Well, I mean, they only make shoes, I think. No, no, no, there's male deal now. What are you doing? It's Chanel that doesn't do men's clothes. What are you doing in Dolce & Gabbana? What are you doing in Versace? Why are you spending $1,000 on a pair of shoes? That is not like a, like a tactical or a... And even that stuff, oh my god.

• 2:00:07Speaker 10

  Like, the fagotization of like the, of the, you know, you can go, now you can go to Cryptec and you can get the Versace of camo.

• 2:00:17Speaker 10

  It's like, wish, wish, their salespeople will even call it that. Not on the website, because men don't like that. But, but, you know, like, there's now like designer camo. Where it's like, I mean, I know, I have it, but, uh, no.

• 2:00:29Speaker 10

  But, you know, uh, fagotize, fagotize. Everything is, look at the consumers. Who's making these decisions? Women. And we, and we have this, women, women in the marketing departments, women in the, in the advertising, women on social media. Everything's going gay. And, and, and, and it's, it's justified. And just the same way the pink pound is self-reinforcing. This thing we always say, oh, women make most of the purchasing decisions in most houses. Shut up. Like, doesn't mean every man has to go out looking like he wants to drop on his knees in a, in a, in a, in a public park or in a toilet just because, just because his wife chooses what washing powder they use. Like, stop it.

• 2:01:07Speaker 10

  Everything has gone gay. Everything's gone gay. I mean, it just, just, just every bit of life. I mean, music, um, I mean, now we, now we force heterosexuals to listen to Lil Nas X, um, you know, and, and, and this sort of, um, you know, endless turnover of, of, of preening homosexual crooners that we call pop stars. There aren't any anymore because, um, you know, pop stars require a kind of like heroic manly virtue, I think, that is just, just gone now. It's just not there anymore.

• 2:01:35Tucker Carlson?

  So if you wanted to weaken a society to the point of collapse...

• 2:01:38Speaker 10

  Fagotize it.

• 2:01:40Speaker 10

  It's not feminization. That's a mistake to believe that. It's not, society is not becoming feminized, it's becoming fagotized. It's become, it has been gayed. You know, and it's um, and it's like the difference between effeminacy and femininity, right? You look carefully at the behaviors, it's like it might have started off feminized, like you said, oh, the HR departments have kind of like feminized language in the corporate sphere, and blah blah, it might have started that way, but the gays took over very soon afterwards. And so now, we don't have a feminized public square, we have a fagotized public square. And it's hardly surprising, given that everybody in Congress, and everybody in the Senate, and everybody in the party, and everybody on TV, and everybody else that you've ever heard of on television,

• 2:02:25Speaker 10

  and everybody on all the TV shows are gay. It's not a shocker. This would be the result, because even if they might be living

• 2:02:38Speaker 10

  DL lives, they still like what they like. And they're still gonna do it. It's like, oh yeah, so let's have that little cocktail, you know, like, they still do it. You see a DC, like, these men in DC, like, drinking their little champagnes and things.

• 2:02:50Tucker Carlson?

  So when you are, I mean, a lot of this, it's like walking into a room full of women, and there's all this stuff going on, but you have no idea what it is. A daily occurrence for me, but um, you know, something's going on, but you know, you don't quite get the right, on the wrong frequency.

• 2:03:06Speaker 10

  You're not recognizing it, because it's not feminine, because you'd recognize it if it was feminine, you'd know what you were looking at.

• 2:03:10Tucker Carlson?

  But when you go to Washington, when you were flitting around Washington as a, what was your Dangerous Faggot Tour, is that what it was called?

• 2:03:18Speaker 10

  Yes, I think the verb would be flit.

• 2:03:21Tucker Carlson?

  Or perhaps flounce. There was some flouncing, I saw it.

• 2:03:26Speaker 10

  There was a bit of flouncing. Do you know the funny story? Perfect, sorry to cut you off.

• 2:03:29Tucker Carlson?

  No, no.

• 2:03:30Speaker 10

  Again, I've been doing the whole day, but a perfect illustration of the fagotization of society. I'm, my bus, my giant Dangerous Faggot Tour bus is in a parking lot, just outside Washington DC, and Mike Pence's advance team are planning to put him in the same hotel. And they have to change hotels, no, stop. But they have to change, I mean, he's like spiritually gay, for sure, but he had to change hotels, and divert his, I mean, this is the, you know, this is the incoming Vice President of the United States, right? To make way for the faggot.

• 2:04:04Speaker 10

  Just saying. It wasn't like-

• 2:04:06Tucker Carlson?

  Not the first time.

• 2:04:07Speaker 10

  They could have come to me and said, would you mind? Cause we have like the, the, the vice president-elect, like whatever, or, or coming in. Well, I mean, this is 2017, so he is the vice president by then. You know, we have the vice president, you know, coming through like, would you? And we would have said, yeah, sure. We'll, we'll, you know, we'll go to the, we'll go to the residence in. But no, they just, they just changed all of his plans, not mine, to make way, to make space for the faggot. Perfect analogy, isn't it?

• 2:04:33Tucker Carlson?

  Perfect. But you picked up that vibe a lot when you were in Washington.

• 2:04:37Speaker 10

  Oh my God. The number of people who, sorry.

• 2:04:41Speaker 10

  You told me you don't help people. No, I mean, I think allegations have been roundly disproven, haven't they? No, but you know, the number of people who were just, I mean, they didn't quite say hop on my lap, but.

• 2:04:53Tucker Carlson?

  So you, I mean, cause you're on that wavelength.

• 2:04:55Speaker 10

  Well, 10 years ago, I was very beautiful and.

• 2:04:59Tucker Carlson?

  I didn't notice?

• 2:05:01Speaker 10

  No, of course you didn't notice. Been upset about you. I've had it ever since.

• 2:05:09Speaker 10

  Tucker never said I was. No, um, uh, no, I was, I was very good looking, you know, I was in shape and I was the rest of it. And, and, and, and now, I mean, it was, it was, it was like a daily avalanche.

• 2:05:19Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 2:05:20Speaker 10

  Never needed to visit Niagara Falls. I just, you know, just like, I've got, I've got, I've got a giant torrent coming out. I mean, I won't finish that metaphor, but, um, no, it's just, just, no, it's like a torrent.

• 2:05:33Tucker Carlson?

  So how has your life changed day to day now that you're celibate and getting away from trying to over, overcome your gay sexual impulses?

• 2:05:46Speaker 10

  I don't really have them anymore. Not, not, not often.

• 2:05:51Speaker 10

  My life is, so, so I've learned.

• 2:05:56Speaker 10

  Well, the first thing to say is that dogs have stopped barking at me.

• 2:05:59Tucker Carlson?

  What?

• 2:06:01Speaker 10

  I mean, I used to set dogs off, like really set dogs off. Like they would go crazy around me. And when I stopped.

• 2:06:07Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 2:06:07Speaker 10

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:06:08Tucker Carlson?

  With hostility or affection?

• 2:06:09Speaker 10

  I mean, they can sense evil, you know? My spiritual, I can only tell this joke because it's my spiritual director that said it.

• 2:06:18Speaker 10

  I said, do you think it's because they can sense evil? He said, no, it's because you don't smell like blacks anymore.

• 2:06:27Speaker 10

  Look, the priest said it.

• 2:06:29Tucker Carlson?

  Let the record reflect, I'm not laughing.

• 2:06:32Speaker 10

  You know, dogs have a famous

• 2:06:34Tucker Carlson?

  No, I know.

• 2:06:35Speaker 10

  complex relationship with certain people.

• 2:06:40Speaker 10

  I'm sure that's not what it was, but, but, um, no, but, but, um,

• 2:06:45Speaker 10

  you know, the biggest thing that happened to me?

• 2:06:47Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, can I stop? Did dogs, are you being serious about dogs?

• 2:06:50Speaker 10

  Hundred percent serious. I mean, like, there's two photos of me, like, snuggling with puppies, like, okay, you got me. But other than that, almost every other dog, like, would just go nuts anywhere around me. My, my, I set up a loving firm last year with a friend and, and her dogs just went ape anytime I was even in the vicinity, until I started making these changes. And then it was like,

• 2:07:16Speaker 10

  and now they're like, it's bizarre. I mean, I'm a cat person now because I kind of have to be, but, but, um, but I'm a great lover of dogs, like, I think you are too.

• 2:07:28Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:07:28Speaker 10

  A great lover of dogs. And, you know, what they lack in intellectual sophistication versus their feline compatriots, they make up for in like intuition, you know?

• 2:07:38Tucker Carlson?

  They do.

• 2:07:39Speaker 10

  They're like babies. They're like, they got a little Holy Spirit in them or something. They're just like, they know good guys from bad guys. Dogs just couldn't be around me.

• 2:07:46Tucker Carlson?

  That's amazing.

• 2:07:47Speaker 10

  I mean, I'm sure not all gay people have that, the thing, but, but it's just a, a, a, just a sign of something that changed. The biggest thing that changed for me, though, which is not like a big, the biggest thing to me, because I live in an internal life, you know, like most of my, most of my life is up here, right?

• 2:08:01Speaker 10

  The biggest thing that happened to me is I started caring what happened in stories. Like spoilers started to bother me. And I couldn't figure out what that was about.

• 2:08:12Speaker 10

  Like 10 years ago, when the Star Wars movie came out, just before Christmas, when no one had had the chance to see it, I tweeted, Han Solo dies. You know, like a thousand people unfollowed me. I thought, how could you? Ah, you know, the worst person ever. It's like, what are you talking about? It's like a stupid space movie. Like, get a grip. But I started to care, maybe because I started to care what happens to me.

• 2:08:33Speaker 10

  I've started to care what happens in stories, like the plot matters. I'm no longer just looking at the surface, at the, well, at the surfaces. And I'm not looking at the dresses on the women or the accents, or, or at least not just looking at those things anymore. Like, I want to know that the story has a happy ending.

• 2:08:54Speaker 10

  Because I think, you know, cleaving to my faith more closely, I've become more aware that the universe has a happy ending, and I want a happy ending. And that's the biggest thing that's happened to me, like, in my, in my head and my soul, you know?

• 2:09:08Tucker Carlson?

  Did you not care about yourself as much?

• 2:09:11Speaker 10

  No, of course not, of course not. But I've gone from, I went from somebody who liked Oscar Wilde because I liked the witty lines and the sparkling surface of it, to somebody who appreciates, instead now, or at least reads it differently now, for the, for the subversion, for the little eddies in language he uses, which are meant to, to show, you know, that this, this kind of like disintegrating way of life. And I read it historically now, history, I never read history books, because nothing mattered before or after, it's just like today, because I'm in a grip of an addiction. But now I read biographies, I never did that before.

• 2:09:52Tucker Carlson?

  Well, because a narcissist doesn't care about other people's lives.

• 2:09:56Speaker 10

  Right, but I knew, I knew stuff, but I didn't like, I didn't want to know details. And, and now I feel, I mean, Myers-Briggs is a lot of old shit, but, but I'm like, my, my personality type, such as it is, it's completely changed. And I don't know exactly.

• 2:10:12Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 2:10:13Speaker 10

  Yeah. I mean, I know I look and sound like pretty similar, but the way that I, because I have the same sense of humor, like, I have some bits of personality that I have, but the way that I acquire information has changed. Like, I, like, I forget the distinctions, because it is a lot of shit, but, but, you know, like, the intuitive to the sensory or whatever. It feels, feels now like I can, I feel more in tune now, like, before, there was kind of like a sheet of glass, like, some critical ironic distance between me and the world, right? Didn't really want to engage with it, you know? And now, I'm like, I want to grab the wood, sorry, I'll rephrase that. Um, I want, you know, I want to like, now I want to grab a different kind of, no, I, I want to, I want to like, know what it's made of, and where it's from, and, and, and

• 2:10:57Speaker 10

  look at it and think about it, and, and like. So this is how you ended up, huh? You know, like, like, that, that didn't used to occur to me at all. I'd just be like, yeah, it's cool. I love the aesthetic. It's really nice. I love what you're going on there. What is this, shabby chic? And I just wouldn't know. And now I'm just like, this is alive. This is like, it, like, I, now I get, I didn't get when you first started. I was like, like, this about the set. And now I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

• 2:11:24Tucker Carlson?

  So you were a prisoner of ironic detachment?

• 2:11:26Speaker 10

  Yeah, yeah. Like, this, this kind of like, everything's got to be meta, everything's got to be whatever, because I was afraid of engaging with the material critically.

• 2:11:34Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:11:34Speaker 10

  Authentically, you know? I was afraid of engaging with the material. And, and, and now I'm not.

• 2:11:39Tucker Carlson?

  Can I just say, can I just brag indirectly? Even when you were, I first met you in the green room at some Fox show years ago, many years ago.

• 2:11:49Tucker Carlson?

  And you were in full.

• 2:11:51Speaker 10

  Full fag, yeah.

• 2:11:51Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Oh, ridiculous.

• 2:11:53Speaker 10

  It was a lot, it was a lot.

• 2:11:54Tucker Carlson?

  Parody of.

• 2:11:55Speaker 10

  It was a lot.

• 2:11:55Tucker Carlson?

  Parody of a gay man. I thought, I thought you were deep anyway. I could see that in you. Sorry, not bragging. I always thought that.

• 2:12:04Speaker 10

  I mean, it was a compliment to both of us, so I'll allow it.

• 2:12:07Tucker Carlson?

  No, but I, I perceive that.

• 2:12:09Speaker 10

  Now, when I do gay things, I do it like a Margaret Thatcher accent, because now it's not really me anymore, you know? Like, it was a compliment to both of us.

• 2:12:14Tucker Carlson?

  No, I saw that, though. I saw that instantly, like, first day, I remember we were, yeah, exactly where we were standing.

• 2:12:19Speaker 10

  But, but when you see somebody that way, I mean, there are, there are gay people who are not deep, you know, Dave Rubin, you know, people who just.

• 2:12:26Tucker Carlson?

  There's no one shallower.

• 2:12:27Speaker 10

  There's no there, there. There's nobody behind, there's nobody behind there.

• 2:12:31Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I know.

• 2:12:31Speaker 10

  It's just that. And you read his, you know, you read his book and it's like, Candace made me read his book.

• 2:12:37Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 2:12:38Speaker 10

  She made me, he did, I mean, his book, like, Don't Burn This Book. I'm like, I'd have to buy it first. I'd have to know, I'd have to have heard of it.

• 2:12:45Tucker Carlson?

  Like, I'd have to acknowledge it really is a book.

• 2:12:47Speaker 10

  What, you know, please, the spacing, like, they're sort of like, they're the margins and, oh, my God. I mean, you know, from, from having so many successful books, like, all the publishing tricks, like, you know, if you, if your manuscript comes in short, and you're like.

• 2:13:00Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:13:01Speaker 10

  You know, we probably both had that happen to us from time to time.

• 2:13:05Speaker 10

  There was this, there was this rumor that I, there was this rumor that I didn't write my books. It was this team, a fleet of, of assistants. And so the first interview I gave about my, my book about The Last Pope, the book had been out two months, and I said, sounds brilliant. I can't wait to read it.

• 2:13:22Speaker 10

  But you know, when you actually have like stuff going on, you're too busy to write it. And then you write other people's books when in the fellow periods. Anyway.

• 2:13:29Tucker Carlson?

  Actually, I have a famous friend who never read any of his books.

• 2:13:33Speaker 10

  No, of course not.

• 2:13:34Tucker Carlson?

  And he had a million of them.

• 2:13:34Speaker 10

  Come on. Bill O'Reilly, probably.

• 2:13:37Tucker Carlson?

  That's very much a TV thing.

• 2:13:38Speaker 10

  Yeah, it is. It is. It is. And I was on tour and stuff. So but I did actually write mine. As it happens, I had a research assistant, but actually a very great guy, Alan Bukary, who is now writing a book about Gamergate, The Great Untold Story About How Trump Happened, which is completely topic for another day. But what was the question?

• 2:13:59Tucker Carlson?

  Well, the question was how you've changed as a person.

• 2:14:03Speaker 10

  I do. I still go off on tangents. Yes.

• 2:14:06Tucker Carlson?

  But you were saying that you have an appreciation for the future and for things beyond yourself, whereas you didn't before.

• 2:14:11Speaker 10

  I'm back in the room.

• 2:14:15Speaker 10

  Now, now, now, now I will, I care what happens at the end of stories.

• 2:14:22Speaker 10

  Like, I used to read it for the wit and try to remember the sparkling dialogue to play, to semi plagiarize it in conversation or whatever, you know?

• 2:14:30Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:32Speaker 10

  And, you know, I see a little of this change in another friend of mine, in George Santos.

• 2:14:38Tucker Carlson?

  What a good guy he is.

• 2:14:40Speaker 10

  I can't help but like him. I always liked him.

• 2:14:42Tucker Carlson?

  You can't help but like him. I totally agree.

• 2:14:44Speaker 10

  I always liked him. I was just like, oh, he's just unlikable. And he's likable. He would be likable if he was thin, which is how likable he is.

• 2:14:55Tucker Carlson?

  I never thought of that.

• 2:14:56Speaker 10

  He'd be likable, even if he was skinny. That's how likable he is. He's especially, he's especially lovely, being jolly. But

• 2:15:05Speaker 10

  I've noticed in him some little changes, some adjustments along these lines since he's had his reckoning and his, you know? I mean, he had to confront something. I make a prediction.

• 2:15:19Speaker 10

  Guarantee you, the guy doesn't die gay.

• 2:15:22Speaker 10

  Guarantee you, George doesn't like it because he's gonna see his behavior, the Walter Mitty stuff, as being in dialogue with, dependent on, congruent with the other damage. Guarantee it. Guarantee it.

• 2:15:38Tucker Carlson?

  I'm still so uncomfortable with this topic that I'm not going to broach that with him, but I think you're qualified to do that.

• 2:15:44Speaker 10

  Well, I'm on Tim Paul with him soon, so maybe I will.

• 2:15:48Tucker Carlson?

  So how do you change? Like, what's the process? This thing that we're not allowed to talk about, which is, and I can't, gay conversion therapy.

• 2:15:57Speaker 10

  We don't call it conversion therapy anymore.

• 2:15:59Tucker Carlson?

  But that's what it was called, right? They were trying to ban it. So like, you were required to be gay? I remember thinking like, and by the way, I've never been anti.

• 2:16:07Speaker 10

  What are you converting from and to?

• 2:16:09Tucker Carlson?

  No, but also the idea that you're not allowed to change? Like, what? That's when I realized.

• 2:16:14Speaker 10

  It's the biggest thing. Why are you keeping people gay against their will? You're keeping them gay.

• 2:16:18Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's when my mind, as someone who's always been, I guess, pro-gay or whatever, I'd never really been that involved in it.

• 2:16:24Speaker 10

  It's one of the least attractive things about you.

• 2:16:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I agree. I agree. But I started, my brain started to change a bit when they were like, we're gonna ban gay conversion therapy. And I was like, I thought the whole point was you can be whatever you want to be, which I was kind of for. But now you're gay, you must stay that way?

• 2:16:38Speaker 10

  It's respectable for you to be pro-gay if the basis of your pro-gayness is that they're trying to force people to stay gay.

• 2:16:46Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that, no, no, that's when I started to change. I was like, what are we talking about here? You're not allowed.

• 2:16:50Speaker 10

  So you're going the wrong way. Yeah, no, you're just, you're just off on this.

• 2:16:53Tucker Carlson?

  That just blew my mind when they tried to ban that. I was like, this is not what they told me it was.

• 2:16:58Speaker 10

  They're trying to force people to stay gay against their will.

• 2:17:00Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:17:01Speaker 10

  I mean, it's bizarre. There's a Supreme Court case right now, the ruling will come next year, about whether or not bans on gay conversion therapy are constitutional, whether it's legal to do it. So we'll find out.

• 2:17:16Tucker Carlson?

  Craziest thing I've ever heard.

• 2:17:18Speaker 10

  Well, Supreme Court is kind of like, it always struck me, at least until recently, I guess, with the injection of the DEI, like lunatic. Isn't that the greatest chart you've ever seen? The greatest graph of my life. How much Katanji Brown Jackson talks. It's the greatest, it's the greatest chart I've ever seen.

• 2:17:38Tucker Carlson?

  Self-esteem is in inverse proportion to ability. Yeah, we're aware of that.

• 2:17:41Speaker 10

  Yeah, it's the greatest chart I've ever seen. And then you got, and then you got old Clarence.

• 2:17:46Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 2:17:47Speaker 10

  One word. It is the greatest chart. I just saw it and my first reaction was, that tracks. And we had in the Supreme Court, and probably maybe so, I mean, it's sort of down the line, isn't it, Democrat? Up until recently, it was, you know, it was really just like Catholics, we Jews on the Supreme Court.

• 2:18:02Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think there are any Protestants on the Supreme Court.

• 2:18:05Speaker 10

  I don't think there are now.

• 2:18:07Tucker Carlson?

  There is one, Neil Gorsuch is an Episcopalian.

• 2:18:09Speaker 10

  Yeah, but you're, you're, you're, you're just over the fence, you know?

• 2:18:13Tucker Carlson?

  No, but I mean, there was a while where-

• 2:18:14Speaker 10

  You've got a little, you've got a little toe in the Tiber.

• 2:18:16Tucker Carlson?

  This country was founded and created by Protestant men and there's not a single one in the Supreme Court?

• 2:18:22Speaker 10

  Yeah, but it was a fifth of them were Catholic. The small ones.

• 2:18:26Tucker Carlson?

  Only in Rhode Island, but whatever.

• 2:18:29Speaker 10

  Another day. When, when you see that kind of civilizational clash, as it seems to me that it is one, I can't help but hope, if they're not going to do Obergefell, that they at least let people get away from being gay. Like at least let people leave. At least let people leave. Because I had to fumble my way with hot oil on a stove and like hurting myself to eventually get to a point where-

• 2:19:10Speaker 10

  I was not seeing a particular stimulus and automatically having a particular arousal response. Is that what you want? Is that what is that what they want? Is that what they want everybody to have to do to sit at home and abuse themselves? To sit at home and like hurt themselves to get rid of these unwanted, disordered urges that are making them miserable, that are hurting other people, that are hurting them, that are the product of trauma, that are a trauma response? Is that what you want? You want people to sit at home and do it to themselves? I don't think so.

• 2:19:42Tucker Carlson?

  I think it's what they want. I think destroying people is what they want.

• 2:19:44Speaker 10

  But I don't think it's what we want, you know?

• 2:19:47Tucker Carlson?

  I agree. So how do people change and what is the process?

• 2:19:53Speaker 10

  Well, the father of this stuff, the most, I mean, there are some quacks.

• 2:19:59Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I bet.

• 2:20:00Speaker 10

  I'm not gonna lie about it. But the father of the stuff, the most respectable stuff with the highest success rate, the guy's name was Joseph Nicolosi. And he can't find most of his books on Amazon. Obss.

• 2:20:14Tucker Carlson?

  Actually?

• 2:20:15Speaker 10

  Yeah.

• 2:20:16Tucker Carlson?

  Why? Because they're suppressed?

• 2:20:20Tucker Carlson?

  So that just tells you that right there, if they're banning books, okay.

• 2:20:25Speaker 10

  Yeah, okay. Well, I'm not such a, I'm not such an anti-book ban guy. You're a bit more of a free speech fun.

• 2:20:32Speaker 10

  What were the Nazis burning? What were they burning? Ask them.

• 2:20:36Tucker Carlson?

  I know, I'm very aware of that.

• 2:20:37Speaker 10

  I know. Well, I guess what I'm just more of a free speech.

• 2:20:40Tucker Carlson?

  I am. I am a free.

• 2:20:41Speaker 10

  I have evolved into more of an authoritarian over the last 10 years.

• 2:20:46Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I'm not even having that debate. I'm just saying that you know what's important to people. You know what they're lying about by what they try and hide.

• 2:20:53Speaker 10

  Sure. That we can, that's all I'm saying. That's right. And we can also agree that all of the, all of the Jewish trans doctors need to have their books burned. But when

• 2:21:09Speaker 10

  He wrote about this stuff over decades, had a very tempestuous relationship with the bodies in psychology and all the rest of it and psychiatry. But he's the person to read if you want to understand how people become gay and how many of them have got out of it. So for me, the most important book is Shame and Attachment Loss. It's kind of got a yellowy-green cover. And the good news is that although Dr. Nicolosi has left us, his son, Joe Junior, is still in the practice and is still training therapists today. He's based in California, obviously.

• 2:21:52Speaker 10

  And so he's still working today. And today, the way that the therapy that Joe Junior does presents itself is, okay, it looks weird. It looks really weird. It's peculiar looking. It's almost funny looking when you see, because sometimes they'll film a session as a demonstration. But it almost looks sort of like something you might see from Ally McBeal, like smile therapy or something, right? But for a lot of patients, it's showing enormous progress and progress we measure as

• 2:22:31Speaker 10

  the amount of arousal, unwanted same-sex feelings, like, just like, I didn't, wait a minute, did I? I don't think I got the hots for anyone this week. Yeah. So people have gay sex urges for a variety of reasons. So that without getting too specific, the passive partner in a gay encounter is looking to take on some of the masculinity he feels he lacks. And that's in a literal, physical way and in an emotional way too, right?

• 2:23:10Speaker 10

  He's seeking to absorb in some fashion the manliness he feels he doesn't have. Really? Yes. And it makes sense, don't it? Like, when you think about it. I've always wondered about what that was, but yeah. If you're, if you're, if you're, and it's a way of, of interacting with the kind of men you've never been able to interact with, or who have never, like, taken you seriously, or that you've always kind of, like, admired from afar, or whatever, because you have had this, like, jump tracks thing in your brain from, from neglect or abuse, or whatever it is. And so you seek, you want to be, you want to, you feel like it's, it's like getting charged up, and this is where the magic comes in again, as, you know, like, this is how magic works, you know, like, magic artifacts got, like, charged up with evil power, like,

• 2:23:53Speaker 10

  that's what, you know, grace doesn't work like that, you know, God doesn't work that way. Uh, the infinite, limitless generosity and charity and grace of God doesn't work like that, you don't have to, like, recharge your, your reserves. Another reason gay sex is unfulfilling, because it's refilling a battery that's always depleting, it's like a slow puncture, you know? And you just top it up, you can never fill it up, you can top it up for a moment with, with an encounter like this. Those urges in the first place come from, um, uh, a memory, or a thought, or something that's leading to, um, this arousal, this, this, this, this, uh, disordered urge, and

• 2:24:34Speaker 10

  the way to get rid of it, feels a little like, some people will under, will have heard of maybe CBT, although it's different in some important ways. Um, the, the, the, the therapy is three-step. The first, um, the first thing that you do is you, you produce that state, so you think about, or you look at something that will take you to the place that would have produced arousal previously. And then you introduce something unexpected into the brain. And the idea is that you rewire the brain in its plasticity to expect a different outcome.

• 2:25:13Speaker 10

  When it has that stimulus in future, right? So the way I did it was to hurt myself. So if I saw a basketball player, I'm not a basketball, because we're all gay nerds, like I said, but a football player, like I said, sitting down next to me on a flight or something, I wouldn't get aroused, like the blood wouldn't stop flowing. I would get like, you know, like that, or something, right? Vaguely. Or at least wouldn't get that arousal response. The way that the therapists do it, which is better, is a sort of like, just a completely unrelated, feelings neutral kind of a thing, right? And the way it looks is just remarkable.

• 2:25:57Speaker 10

  And the third step is just repeat it, because there's only two ways you can persuade the brain of things, which is emotional connection and repetition. Nothing else, nothing else works. Those are the only two means of persuasion that work.

• 2:26:05Tucker Carlson?

  Emotional connection or repetition.

• 2:26:07Speaker 10

  So this is why all the late night comedians who aren't funny anymore, their job is not to be funny. Their job is to associate certain things with certain emotional reactions, and then to do that every night of the week forever. So Trump, ew! And then the next night, Trump, ew! And this eventually persuades people that Trump bad, right? Because they're associating an emotional reaction to a certain thing. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. It's just programming. It's programming. It's programming. They don't have to be funny. That's not their job. It is not Jimmy Kimmel's job to be funny. It's Jimmy Kimmel's job to repeat and repeat. It's why it's so boring and repetitive, right?

• 2:26:45Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:26:46Speaker 10

  Repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat. Positive, happy, like Kamala's so brave. Trump's hideous. Oh, disgusting. Isn't he gross? Isn't he, oh, that fat ginger, orange retard, whatever, you know? They're not talking about him in terms of policy. They're talking about in terms of disgust. Yeah? Because that's an emotional thing. And then again, again, again, again, eventually people are like, Trump, ew, you know?

• 2:27:08Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 2:27:09Speaker 10

  That's happening. It's just programming. It's why the comedians aren't funny. You're welcome. This is that for virtuous ends, because it's what works in the brain. And it very often uses, so people find this strange, but so Aquinas talks about how grace builds on nature, right? Thomas Aquinas. And...

• 2:27:35Speaker 10

  So there are ways in which our bodies are machines. They function according to mechanisms and respond to stimulus. And although there's a spiritual dimension to all of this, the way our brains work is trainable. It's trainable like a dog is trainable. It's trainable like anything is trainable. And so the way this therapy looks, and I provided you with a couple of little examples in video so that you can see yourself afterwards. The way this therapy looks is first of all, the original stimulus will be produced. And then there may be a pattern of like following a pen around or a particular kind of tapping on the knee or something.

• 2:28:19Speaker 10

  It's just intended to be like a neutral, a different outcome from that initial response. So that no longer does the brain go to arousal. It goes to something else. And that, it's very common if you see in PTSD survivors, if you've ever been to the VA, you'll see a lot of like this going on in like the treatment rooms. And you're like, what the hell is that all about? That's what it is. They're produced, they ask them to remember something traumatic from their service and then something, it's just kind of little thing. And what's going on is the best way I can kind of describe it is it's like when you press Ctrl or Delete and then a couple of other things and the computer reboots without the virus now. Yes. You know, like that's not quite how computers work. But you know, it reboots and you're no longer in that situation.

• 2:29:04Speaker 10

  Again, you can do that with the brain. But it takes not just one reboot, but it takes repeated raising, if they call it the schema or the target, the thing that produced that unwanted response. And then immediately the introduction of an unexpected outcome. So your brain's like, hang on a second.

• 2:29:27Speaker 10

  This happened, so I was expecting that, but then this happened. And then over time, your brain learns to just do that instead. And that instead could just be like something completely anodyne, or it could be like I did, which is a kind of clunking, amateur version of it, which was something painful or unpleasant. And the third step, just do it over and over again. And eventually you see people just have less of those desires. It's the most peculiar thing, but it is being borne out in the studies. And so Joe Junior, I brought this with me, I'll leave it with you if you're interested. But 144 people in a randomized placebo blind trial, it works.

• 2:30:12Speaker 10

  It works and it works because this, these homosexual urges are not so totally unlike other forms of trauma, other forms of damage, other forms of deviance. This same thing, it works on people who are obsessed with rape. Like a guy who can't get off unless he's thinking about raping a girl. Now rape is something that women love to fantasize about, but perhaps don't necessarily enjoy the reality of, even the reality of play of it, right? It's something women love to think about, but you act that one out without warning, you're sleeping on the couch for a minimum.

• 2:30:56Speaker 10

  It can, it can help men to enjoy sex lives that don't involve coercion, you know, because they have that sort of thing. And much of the same technique is used with people who have other kinds of trauma, who have other kinds of trauma responses as a product of bad things that happen to them, or as a product of just something going a bit wrong where that track has jumped, you know? And so this, though it looks very odd, is based on decades of research and builds on other therapies for other kinds of trauma, and it looks like it's working. Now, I didn't have this kind of therapy, I will say that.

• 2:31:37Speaker 10

  Like I said, I kind of bumbled through on my own because I'm stubborn and a loner. But this has started to work for people.

• 2:31:47Tucker Carlson?

  When you look back on the life that you led 10 years ago, how do you feel?

• 2:31:53Speaker 10

  I feel ashamed.

• 2:31:56Speaker 10

  I feel embarrassed and disgusted by the things I did, but I feel ashamed,

• 2:32:02Speaker 10

  particularly about 10 years ago, about how many people. You know, I thought I was like laying it on thick with this sort of like Damon Everidge kind of, you know, a high synth bouquet performance on stage. And I realized people weren't picking up the layers, maybe. And every talk I ever gave in the Q and A, I said, if I could not be gay, I would push that button, you know? And nobody ever like, that never registered with people. All that they, why? I don't know. All they got was being gay is okay now, being right wing, being gay and right wing is okay now. And I know that I pushed that button with the left to annoy them and because it was absurd at that time. But people never got the message. When I said, if I could possibly, I never gave a speech in my life where I told people, go be gay.

• 2:32:43Speaker 10

  I said, my first ever appearance on television was with Boy George, like 20 years ago. And I said, I feel that something is wrong inside me.

• 2:32:53Speaker 10

  And I didn't have the vocabulary to articulate this. And he's like, no, honey, you're perfect just the way you are. I can't do Boy George, but you know, I was like, no, no, I feel that something is wrong in there. And everybody around the table just left, you know, like thinking like, oh, there's a self-hating homosexual. Well, I'm not, I wasn't hating myself. I was hating the things that I was doing because I knew they were hurting me. And I knew even then, I never gave a speech in my whole life where I said, go be gay.

• 2:33:16Tucker Carlson?

  Have you ever talked to other gay men who have the same feeling?

• 2:33:19Speaker 10

  Yeah, yeah. I think because, I mean, not many of them will articulate it like I do because I am a little bit cuckoo and I don't mind kind of living in public and talking about my feelings. Like my Twitter is just like this, well, aside from the eight years missing, it's just this like insane stream of consciousness where I'll just say the most like ridiculous, absurd, outrageous things, but it's because people are getting like a tap straight in, you know? It's just what's going on in there today? So I'm comfortable living that way and I'm comfortable expressing myself and talking about myself. And I think now I have a duty. Now I have a responsibility to others because of, because the message didn't land. Like I was, I was.

• 2:34:04Speaker 10

  I was not intending to give birth to this huge generation of gay Republicans, who now just, I think it's openly, like openly fine to, to trafficking babies and to be a gay Republican. And I feel a great deal of responsibility for that. I hate myself for that a little bit.

• 2:34:26Tucker Carlson?

  Milo Yiannopoulos, thank you for everything you said, for your honesty. I appreciate it.

• 2:34:30Speaker 10

  Thanks.

• 2:34:30Tucker Carlson?

  And your insight, which is amazing.

• 2:34:36Tucker Carlson?

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