Cliffe Knechtle Answers Tough Questions About the Bible, Demons, Israel, Judas, Free Will, and Death

Is there a Christian revival going on in America? Cliffe Knechtle would know. He’s been preaching on college campuses for 45 years. (00:00) Moral Relativism Is Running Rampant (08:23) The Tragedy of Transgenderism (17:54) Protestantism vs. Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy (42:46) The Emotional Fragility of Young America (55:50) The Demonic Forces at Work In the World (59:59) Judas, Pharaoh, and Free Will (1:19:12) The Dangers of Self-Righteousness Paid partnerships with: Hallow prayer app: Get 3 months free at https://Hallow.com/Tucker PureTalk: Go to https://PureTalk.com/Tucker to make the switchDutch: Get $50 a year for vet care with Tucker50 at https://dutch.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:44Speaker 01

  Two lesbian at Texas State University, a couple of years ago, a few years ago, stepped out of the crowd and said, "Do you love racists?" And I said, "Absolutely, I love racists. I hate racism. I do not affirm racism. But I affirm the fact that those racists or human beings created the image of God. I don't really give a rip whether you're Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant. I care about what you think about Jesus Christ. Have you put your faith in Him?" And I got a boatload of Catholic friends who have put their faith in Christ, a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends who put their faith in Christ, and a boatload of Protestant friends who put their faith in Christ, but simply not the issue. There is a spiritual force of evil that is at work in the Meleih massacre. Acting on people from outside and influencing their behavior. That's exactly right.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  And that's why Jesus cast demons out of people, for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. There's a spiritual battle that is raging.

• 2:02Tucker Carlson?

  You have been preaching Christianity on college campuses and answering questions from skeptical undergrads, some of them very hostile, for 45 years. Am I getting your bio correct?

• 2:15Speaker 01

  You got it.

• 2:15Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. So you have seen this longitudinally over almost five decades. What are the changes that you've noticed? And what is your sense of the current state of young people?

• 2:33Speaker 01

  The changes are the following: moral relativism, relativism in general, has a stranglehold now on people the way it never used to. Neil deGrasse Tyson once said, "The good thing about science is, it's true, whether you believe it or not." Well, guess what, Neil deGrasse Tyson, that's true about all truth. It's true.

• 2:55Tucker Carlson?

  That's true.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Whether you believe it or not.

• 2:57Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  And yet, you and I live in a culture where more and more people say essentially, "Everything's relative. It doesn't matter what you believe." And my point is, if someone says that to you, take them seriously. Don't believe what they just said to you. So unfortunately, that whole idea of relativism, the truth is totally subjective, has a stranglehold on more and more people's lives. So I've watched that trend continue over the past 45 years. Secondly...

• 3:28Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, I messed up. So 45 years ago was 1980?

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:36Tucker Carlson?

  So you're coming out of the 60s and 70s.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:40Tucker Carlson?

  In 1980, I sort of remember 1980. It was a pretty flaky time, actually.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:45Tucker Carlson?

  The country changed during the 80s, but 1980 was still really the 70s.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:49Tucker Carlson?

  So you think there was less moral relativism then than there is now?

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Well, that's a good question. I'm not sure of that. But it was not as clearly articulated. It had not been worked through philosophically as deeply as it is today. It was not such a part of a warp and woof of the American mind quite as much. Yes, it definitely was strong.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  And to watch that simply grow and deepen was frustrating for me to watch.

• 4:21Tucker Carlson?

  What is moral relativism?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  The idea is basically this, Tucker, who defines right and wrong? I only know of four options. Either the power elite define right and wrong, or the majority define right and wrong, or I define right and wrong, or God does. Now, if the power elite, or the majority, or me defines right and wrong, it is relative. It's just a creation of the human mind. But if there is a God whose mind precedes the human mind, then of course, this mind, this character of God which is good, can define right and wrong, which turns it into an objective, moral absolute. No God, morality is a crapshoot.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Morality is a taste. What do you like? Broccoli or spinach? Well, this is my taste. Well, what do you like? Loving people or hating people? Well, it's my taste. No, according to Christ and according to the Bible, morality is not just a taste. Instead, human beings really have innate value and dignity, and that is why to dehumanize a person and trivialize a person is really wrong. So moral relativism is tragic. And yet, it basically, as you have said so many times on your podcast, basically sin is deifying my opinion, deifying myself, putting myself at the center of the cosmos, which I could not agree with more. And a fall of Christ is someone who's allowing God to be at the center of the universe, and that's what worship is. That's what faith is.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Worship is allowing God to drag me out of the center of the universe, and allowing God to be the center of the universe, which means all of a sudden morality is not totally relative.

• 6:01Tucker Carlson?

  It's interesting. I don't, and I'm not a historian. I'm interested, but I'm not trained as one, so I could be wrong, and I'd be welcome, I'd welcome any correction. But I don't think before the 20th century, there was ever a society, civilization at scale formed on the basis of moral relativism. I think every society made the claim that our moral code came from God.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:26Tucker Carlson?

  Because I don't think, and I'm a Christian, but I'm, of course, I'm not referring to the Babylonians weren't Christians, you know, most civilizations not been Christian, so... But there has to be, at least conceptually, a God. Behind the moral code, or else it's not really a moral code, it's just a preference.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 6:44Tucker Carlson?

  And so that just, as a practical matter, doesn't work over time, does it?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't. But it is a neat way to justify me doing whatever I want to do. Sexually, morally, in the use of power. I can do whatever I want to do.

• 6:59Tucker Carlson?

  Because there are no limits.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I'm the one who defines it. And if I define good a particular way today, but I change my mind tomorrow, there's nothing wrong with it. Because it's all fluid, totally fluid. It's totally arbitrary. It's just a taste. So today, my taste is this, tomorrow my taste is different. It's the opposite. It's not right or wrong. It just is. What is, is. So chill out, Cliff, and just realize, it is.

• 7:23Tucker Carlson?

  So I think you just explained why, and many books have been written on this, why did the 20th century give rise to totalitarianism in a way that the world really had never seen? Now, the obvious explanation is, well, technology made it possible, okay? But it has always struck me that that's an inadequate explanation. It may be that societies at scale, big societies, big civilizations, with, that don't acknowledge God, inevitably become totalitarian, because there are no limits on the behavior of the leaders. There's nothing they can't do.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 8:00Tucker Carlson?

  That is what you're saying?

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yes. One of my heroes is Alexander Solzhenitsyn, the great Russian novelist.

• 8:07Tucker Carlson?

  Amen.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  And Alexander Solzhenitsyn, at one point in his life, thought, you know, it's really the rich that have a problem with evil. They're the scumballs. But then he was put in a gulag in Siberia, and he was living among very low-income people. And he was aghast at the immorality, the evil of those people. And suddenly, Solzhenitsyn woke up to the fact, quote, "The line separating good from evil does not run between parties, classes, and countries. Rather, the line separating good from evil runs through every human heart." And then Solzhenitsyn understood, "I need help. I need a savior." And he converted to Christ. That was sheer brilliance on his part, and also real sensitivity, I think, to reality.

• 8:53Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Well, he learned from what he saw around him, unlike so many of us, right, who don't learn anything. So you think that this is accelerating?

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:03Tucker Carlson?

  And what are the manifestations of it? How do you know that?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Well, obviously, when it comes to the issue of sexuality in our culture, it is tragic, absolutely tragic to watch people say, "I don't know whether I'm male or female, but wait a second, I'm the one who defines it." Because everything is relative. So if I want to define myself as an individual, or as they and them, that's cool. If I want to be he today, she tomorrow, they the day after tomorrow, that's okay. Because truth is something I create in my head. It's simply my perception. So if my perception today is I'm a he, tomorrow my perception is I'm a she, and the day after tomorrow my perception is I'm a they, that's all equally valid. Because it's all just a cosmic crapshoot, that's all life is. It's ultimately meaningless.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Because God didn't create me. No intelligent mind put me here for a purpose. Life is ultimately meaningless, so I'll just create it according to my own desires.

• 10:01Tucker Carlson?

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• 10:44Tucker Carlson?

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• 13:04Speaker 04

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• 13:11Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you did. So flesh out why you think that's tragic. I mean, it's self-evidently silly because you wind up making claims that are just counter to observable truth, like, "I can change my sex." No, you can't. It's determined at the DNA level, so like, no, that's untrue. So you could laugh at that. Why do you call it tragic?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  I call it tragic because I lose my understanding of why you're valuable. And if you rub me the wrong way, there is nothing that says, "I can't cut you off at the knees." And the whole idea of forgiving is ridiculous.

• 13:48Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, wait. Can you stop this? I feel like you're at the heart of something that I don't fully understand, but if you don't mind explaining it a little more fully. Why does that statement, "I can change my sex because I'm self-created, I'm God of my own life," why does that affect the way that I feel about you or you about me? Why does that make you less valuable or me less valuable?

• 14:09Speaker 01

  It doesn't, but it's based on a philosophy. It's based on a worldview, and that worldview says that we all are cosmic accidents, which means we define ourselves, we define our value, we define our morality, we define everything about us.

• 14:22Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Which means, "I will also define how I'm gonna treat you."

• 14:25Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  And if you rub me the wrong way, and if you cut me off at the knees, I'm coming after you to teach you never to do that to me again. And revenge becomes the modus operandi.

• 14:35Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  I have never, ever heard of a porpoise forgiving a shark for eating his porpoise friend. But we're not purposes. We're human beings created in the image of God, which means we have this ability to reflect the character of God, which is gracious and forgiving, and also just and holy. But he was also forgiving, and he created us with this incredible ability to forgive and to be gracious, and not just to cut each other off at the knees.

• 15:03Tucker Carlson?

  So if you don't believe that other people have souls, there's really nothing you can't do to them.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 15:10Tucker Carlson?

  Why does it even matter?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Exactly. What's the difference between me stepping on a cockroach and me stepping on you? You're both sentient beings. You both are alive. So if I can step on a cockroach, why can't I step on you? Oh, now you're gonna give me this mythology that, "Oh, but we're human beings, and we have more value than a cockroach does." Oh, really? I don't think the cockroach feels that way.

• 15:33Tucker Carlson?

  Right. To which you say what?

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Down deep, you know better than that. Down deep, you and I, I don't care what your worldview is. You know that there is something to human value. Down deep, within your heart, within the depth of your being. You know that when you hold a little baby in your hands, you're not holding a cockroach.

• 15:53Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  And this is not based on human arrogance. "Oh, I'm just superior to a cockroach." No, this has to do with some innate, intrinsic value of a human life. But if there is no God, this deep, profound experience that you're having as you hold a little baby in your hands is just raw emotionalism. It's meaningless.

• 16:12Tucker Carlson?

  And the value, as you just said, is inherent. It's not just utilitarian. It's not that the baby may grow up and become a famous scientist who creates a vaccine to prevent disease.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:24Tucker Carlson?

  The value is inherent in the baby. Because the baby exists, the baby is valuable because the baby was created by God.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Bingo. You take God out of the picture and you're up a creek without a paddle when it comes to explaining to me, "Why is that baby valuable?" "Oh, that baby's valuable because I have a lot of strong feelings." Yeah, fine. So that's your genetic drive, right? As mom and dad to care for your child. Well, guess what? I know a lot of deadbeat dads who could give a rip about their kids.

• 16:49Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  So don't give me this bit that dads have to love their kids. And yet, the majority of dads understand that child is valuable. Okay, so now the question is, why? Why is that child valuable? And I would argue, if there is no God, that child is a hunk of primordial slime evolved to a higher order. So don't give me this gibberish that this child is valuable. Instead, be intellectually consistent and acknowledge this child is a cosmic accident, the same way I'm a cosmic accident.

• 17:17Tucker Carlson?

  That's so interesting. So you really can't say that any child or any person is valuable except for the products he produces or the services he provides?

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Bingo.

• 17:27Tucker Carlson?

  Unless you acknowledge that he was created by God.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 17:31Tucker Carlson?

  Because where would the value come from?

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. And you know where the value comes from in our culture? The size of your stock portfolio, the size of your bank account, the style of your car, the house you live in, the size, the grandeur of it. And that is so superficial. I mean, I was once speaking at a women's private-

• 17:46Tucker Carlson?

  Can I also say, it suggests that if you don't have that portfolio or that car, that you have less value.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  You are a loser.

• 17:55Tucker Carlson?

  Right. You're a loser, but you can also be completely mistreated or killed.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Why not?

• 18:00Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's happening in the United States, by the way, to poor people.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 18:04Tucker Carlson?

  And I guess when you frame it the way you did, we shouldn't be surprised by that. You know, 100,000 people can die every year of fentanyl and like, yeah, but they're losers. Like, whatever, who cares?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 18:13Tucker Carlson?

  And that is what we're saying.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Tragic.

• 18:15Tucker Carlson?

  Because they don't have value apart from what they produce or own.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 18:21Tucker Carlson?

  Damn, I think you just, I think you just explained what's happening. I'm sorry, I interrupted you, but you're exploiting my brain a little bit. Yeah.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  I was speaking at a private women's college in Massachusetts, and a woman came up to me with tears streaming down her cheeks. She said, you know, Cliff, you don't know what it's like to walk into a frat party. And as you walk into the door, you walk past a group of guys lined up, and they're whispering to each other, two.

• 18:48Tucker Carlson?

  Four.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Yep. Eight. Ten. She said, you have no idea how dehumanizing that is, Cliff. And I had to look her in the face and say, you're right, ma'am, I don't. I don't know experientially how dehumanizing that is, but I can begin to imagine. That is such a trashy view of human life. It's scary. But if there is no God, we're all hunks of primordial slime, we're all hunks of meat on a hoof, and if we're proportioned correctly, we're in six, eight, 10. And if we're not, we're four or two. Tragic.

• 19:20Tucker Carlson?

  What did she say?

• 19:22Speaker 01

  She began to seriously consider Christ in a way that was very exciting. I don't know what ultimately she decided, but she said to me, Cliff, basically, this is really beginning to make more sense than it ever has before.

• 19:36Tucker Carlson?

  I've noticed a lot that the emphasis in the United States, and I've always been a right-winger and I always made fun of people who prayed about the poor and all that stuff. I was wrong, I just want to say. But I have noticed that the concern for the poor in the United States is basically just evaporated and that 100 years ago, the country was humming with benevolent associations, with what we would call NGOs, basically rich ladies, just like now, trying to elevate the poor. Take care of orphaned children, teach them English, feed them. And that no longer exists at all.

• 20:14Tucker Carlson?

  And could that coincide not coincidentally with the decline in Christianity?

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Yes, it absolutely, absolutely could. It's a searing of the human conscience. It's interesting you raise that issue because this winter and spring like never before, when people ask me difficult theological questions, I try and give a short answer, especially when they start getting into, you know, what about the Catholics? What about the Greek Orthodox? What about the Protestants? You know, don't they really all have problems? My point is rather simple. My point is I don't really give a rip whether you're Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant. I care about what you think about Jesus Christ. Have you put your faith in Him? And I got a boatload of Catholic friends who have put their faith in Christ, a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends who put their faith in Christ, and a boatload of Protestant friends who put their faith in Christ. But simply not the issue. Are you Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant?

• 21:07Speaker 01

  The issue is, have you put your faith in Christ? Then the issue is, are you seeking to introduce people to Christ? And are you seeking to solve one of the biggest killers in the world today, which is starvation? If you had a kid who was starving, and I say to you, I'm a follower of Christ, and I look at your starving kid and say, good luck, and I walk away, you have good reason to question the legitimacy of my faith.

• 21:32Tucker Carlson?

  I think you do, yes.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  If I have the solution for your starving kid and it's called money in my back pocket in my bank account, and I do nothing to help you with your starving kid? Oh my goodness, what on earth is going on? So to get all wrapped up in some of these theological debates, I just don't want to spend too much time on, because we got a boatload of work to do. Introducing people to Christ, helping them go from hell to heaven, helping them grow as people of integrity, people of honesty, people of strong values, and then people who share their financial resources with those who are less fortunate, and solve the world's starvation problem.

• 22:10Tucker Carlson?

  You're effectively a theologian, so it's interesting to hear you say, "I don't want to get caught up in the theology."

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Well, theology is very important when it comes to the basics. I like what Mark Twain said. Mark Twain said, "It's not the parts of the Bible I don't understand that disturb me, it's the parts of the Bible that I do understand that disturb me."

• 22:29Tucker Carlson?

  Boy, is that true.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Right on, Mark. Well, it's amazing how many Christians can get caught up in the minutiae. You know, is transubstantiation correct? So should I be a Catholic or not? Should I pray to Mary or not? You know, if someone comes up to me and says, "Cliff, I know you're going through a rough time, and I'm praying to my aunt, who was a saint, for you," I'm not going to try and have this hour-long discussion with them, why I don't think praying to your dead aunt is a good use of your time. I'm going to say, "Thank you for praying to your aunt. I would encourage people to pray directly to God, directly to Jesus Christ, but how much time do I'm going to spend with another person debating upon whether you should pray to your aunt or not?" I just, let's focus on the majors, not on the minors.

• 23:08Tucker Carlson?

  Interesting, yet a lot of energy is expended on the small stuff. Why is that?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  I don't know. I've got some fears, some concerns about why that is. There's a part of me that understands it too well, which is, I want to be right, and if I have an opinion, I want you to agree with me, and if you don't agree with me, I want to try and convince you to that. And so there's, can be egotism in there, and arrogance.

• 23:34Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  And I've got to be very, very careful of that. I mean, I have the greatest respect for President Lincoln. During the Civil War, a minister came up to him and said, "Mr. Lincoln, let's pray that God is on our side in this terrible conflict." And Lincoln shot back, "Oh, no, no, no, no. Let's pray instead that we are on God's side, for God's side is always right." And it's far too easy for me to baptize my views with, "Oh, this is God's view." Got to be very suspicious of that.

• 24:07Tucker Carlson?

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• 26:15Tucker Carlson?

  Have you ever in your life discovered that what you thought was God's view was really your view?

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. I've watched that in other people. You know, one of the most gut-wrenching experiences for me during the 70s, when I was at Davidson, was I lived in the home of Billy Graham's sister, Jean, and her husband, Layton Ford. And I watched the Graham's family struggle through the Watergate crisis.

• 26:40Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, you lived in Billy Graham's daughter's house?

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Sisters.

• 26:44Tucker Carlson?

  Sisters?

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Home on the weekends, just on the weekends. Layton Ford became like a father in the Lord to me, and his wife, Jeanie, who was Billy Graham's sister, was like, became like a mother in the Lord to me. And so I had a front row seat for watching Dr. Graham realize, I think I went too far with Richard Nixon.

• 27:02Tucker Carlson?

  Wow, so you were there in 73, 74?

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 27:07Tucker Carlson?

  What was that like?

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Well, it was a rather intense educational experience, to put it mildly. In terms of what are you going to spend your life doing? I had the utmost respect for Billy Graham. That guy was incredible. I mean, the temptations that that guy had to deal with, I will never have to deal with. You know, the opportunities to really mess up, he had them all over the place. And his integrity was incredible. And I have the utmost respect for him. But to watch him agonize through this issue of, how close did I get to Richard Nixon? How much did I endorse him? And was that the wisest use of my time? I respect Nixon and Graham for the way they maintained their friendship till Nixon's death. I also respect

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Nixon, the way he told some of his handlers, keep Graham away from me. I don't want to sully him any more than I have. So I respect that. But I also respect Graham for realizing, God called me to preach the gospel. I got to be real careful how much I hop into bed with politicians.

• 28:08Tucker Carlson?

  Amen.

• 28:10Tucker Carlson?

  But, I mean, I guess the counterargument would, I want me to say, I agree with you completely. But I also see the compelling argument on the other side.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:19Tucker Carlson?

  Is that I have influence.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:21Tucker Carlson?

  I think I'm influencing people on behalf of what is true and good.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 28:27Tucker Carlson?

  And I have this chance to influence the President of the United States. Like, why wouldn't I take that?

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 28:32Tucker Carlson?

  What do you think of that argument?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  I think that argument is absolutely correct. But then the question becomes, how strongly do you endorse the individual?

• 28:40Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  Because the individual is a sinner, the same way I am, the same way we all are. And the individual's gonna make mistakes, gonna sin. How closely do I want to wed that individual with Christ? When it comes to communicating Christ to people? And that's a real challenge that I face. One of my best lines is, "I am a dirty rotten sinner." And what I'm seeking to smash is the stereotype that a Christian is someone who claims to be morally superior to everybody else. That's a lie. I'm a follower of Christ because I need God's forgiveness. Because I've messed up. And if I ever forget that, and if I think that my faith in Christ has produced a morally superior person named Cliff Conneckley,

• 29:26Speaker 01

  I have parted company with reality. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found. Was blind, but now I see. Yeah, that's where it's at. A story, Tucker, that I use a lot is

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Truth and Reconciliation Commission, after apartheid was being taken apart in South Africa. Officer Vanderwood was at one end of the court, and a black South African woman was at the end of that court. And the Truth and Reconciliation Commission looked into the face of the black South African and said, "Ma'am, this officer..."

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Went to your township, arrested your husband, brought him outside the township, partied, and roasted him over a fire till he was burned to death. One year later, they did the same thing to your son. Came to your home, arrested your son, took him out to a party outside the town, and burned him to death. Now, what do you want us to do with this white police officer? And this black South African woman said, "I got three requests." First request is, "I want this white police officer to take me to the place where he burned my husband and my son to death, so that I can gather up their ashes and give them a proper burial."

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Second request is, "I want this white police officer to come to my township, once a month, and allow me to mother him, because I got a lot of mothering left in me, and he's taking my family away from me." And the third thing is, "I want you to allow me to walk across this courtroom now, and give him a hug, to try and convince him that my forgiveness of him is genuine and real." And the Truth and Reconciliation Commission said, "Yes, go ahead." This black South African woman stands up, and as she's walking across the courtroom to this man, who was responsible for the murder of her husband and son, a person starts singing, "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  I once was lost, but now am found; was blind, but now I see." That's the gospel of Jesus Christ.

• 31:38Tucker Carlson?

  That's pretty far from what anyone naturally wants or believes.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 31:46Tucker Carlson?

  So, I mean, how do you make the case that acting against your own impulses, against your own instincts, is good? Like, why? That's pretty radical. That's a more radical, I think, than we appreciate normally.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely correct. It's totally radical. And so is me getting on a diet. When the doctor says to me, "You're getting close to being diabetic, Cliff." "Yeah, I gotta cut ice cream out. I don't want to do that. But if I want to play with my grandchildren?"

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Ten years from now, I better do that.

• 32:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  So I'm free. I'm free to eat ice cream every night, a whole bowl full of it, or a pint of it, whatever. Or I'm free to diet. I'm free to do that in order to play with my grandchildren ten years from now. Yeah, if I want to get a good education, I've got to discipline myself. And if I want to play basketball at Davidson College, I'm really gonna have to discipline myself because I don't have the innate talent to do that. So yeah, if I want to achieve excellence in life, I'm gonna have to discipline myself and put myself through some things that I don't naturally want to do. And that's what we call living a wise life of excellence, of using the gifts that God has given me to make a difference in this world for good, of using this incredible body that God has blessed me with to serve God by serving people more effectively,

• 33:04Speaker 01

  to develop this amazing mind, the most powerful muscle in our body that God has given me, by developing that mind so I can think more clearly and help more people. Yeah, I don't necessarily want to do that, but it's what's best, it's what's wisest, so therefore I want to do it.

• 33:20Tucker Carlson?

  What kind of pushback do you get from students

• 33:24Tucker Carlson?

  when you say things like that?

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Uh, two lesbian at Texas State University, a couple of years ago, a few years ago, stepped out of the crowd and said, "Do you love racists?" And I said, "Absolutely, I love racists. I hate racism, but I love racists. They're human beings created in the image of God." And these two lesbians erupted. "You're an idiot. There's no way that you should be loving a racist." And I said, "Ladies, you're really getting mixed up here. There are some very sinful parts of me. I do not affirm those parts. I hate those parts, but I affirm my value as a human being created in the image of God. I do not affirm racism, but I affirm the fact that those racists are human beings created in the image of God.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  And I've got some former murderers coming to the church where I pastor. I abhor their murdering a human being, but I still respect them as human beings created in the image of God." And when I worked in a Lawrence County House of Correction in Lawrence, Massachusetts, while I was in seminary, the first visit I would make every Monday night was into the cell of a guy in protective custody, who was there for kidnapping little boys, sexually abusing them and murdering them and burying them. And after spending an hour with him, talking with him, reading the Bible, praying with him, I would go to the gymnasium to play basketball. And the other inmates would come up to me and say, "Hey, man, don't you know what a piece of dirt he is? How dare you spend any time in his cell talking with him?" And I said, "Sirs, I abhor what he did to those boys.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  But I can promise you, in spite of how he has messed up and defaced the image of God in him, he is still a human being, created the image of God. And I will seek to reach out to him, to offer God's grace and forgiveness to one confused, messed up man."

• 35:08Tucker Carlson?

  How'd they respond?

• 35:10Speaker 01

  They got quizzical looks on their faces. Some of them laughed, and I understand that, because that is foreign, and it is absurd, and as you pointed out, it's really radical, the way you just taught that. But that's part of why we have so many lonely people in our society today, because we live in a cancel culture, which means you rub me the wrong way and I cancel you. Well, guess what? Everybody's gonna rub me the wrong way at some point.

• 35:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  And if I'm just gonna go around canceling people, I may be a very lonely, isolated person. If I don't learn to forgive, I will be alone. Intimacy is based on the ability to forgive and to accept people who are different and who've hurt you.

• 35:53Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. That is such a, that is such a wise point, you know? If you think you're the only virtuous person in the world.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  No kidding.

• 36:02Tucker Carlson?

  First, you're an idiot, but second, you will have no one at dinner.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's exactly right.

• 36:07Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. No, I think that's really wise, but a child molester, really? Shouldn't there be limits to humanity? Like, at some point, do you lose your humanity? I guess what you're saying is no.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  You deface it.

• 36:18Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  And obviously, some of us have defaced it in very, very unusual grotesque ways. But we all have defaced it to some extent. I have. No, I've never committed the sins that that man committed that I would visit every Monday night, but I've lusted, I've been greedy, I've hated, I've had subtle racist attitudes, I've been sexist chauvinistic in my own unique way, sophisticated way. So I'm not this wonderful person that I wish that everyone believed that I am. No, Solzhenitsyn was correct. The line separating good from evil runs through every human heart, including this guy's heart.

• 36:52Tucker Carlson?

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• 37:34Tucker Carlson?

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• 38:17Tucker Carlson?

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• 39:16Tucker Carlson?

  What did lesbians at Texas State say when you told them that you love racists?

• 39:21Speaker 01

  They were outraged. They said, "That's impossible." And I said, "Ladies, from your perspective, I understand why. If there is no God, forgiveness is stupid. You don't forgive people. You teach them not to do that to you again. But if there is a God who's forgiven you, then you'd be very wise to be God-like in the way you forgive others."

• 39:40Tucker Carlson?

  That's not the message of the Old Testament, which I read last year and was pretty shocked by. As I think many people who read it are shocked by the violence in it and shocked by the revenge in it, the genocide in it. What do you make of that?

• 39:56Speaker 01

  I understand why you say what you just said. But to be honest with you, Tucker, I disagree. I think what you see in the Old Testament is the judgment of God. It's not genocide. Instead, God chose to use the Jews to judge the Amalekites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Stalagites, all the other Tites. But remember, a few hundred years later, he used first the Assyrians and then the Babylonians to judge the Jews. Why?

• 40:27Speaker 01

  To commit genocide? No, no, no, no. To judge them for sacrificing their babies on altars, which is the same thing the Hittites and the Canaanites and the Philistines were doing. And God says, "You pervert the worship of me in that way, to the point of sacrificing your child on an altar to me? You will be judged for it." And he judged first those Hittites and Amorites and Agites, and then he judged the Jews for that kind of evil. See, I think the real question, Tucker, is, do we give God the right to judge? Now, here's what's fascinating about this issue for me. When I step onto a state university campus, I know that the majority of professors are gonna basically say,

• 41:12Speaker 01

  "Cliff, if you abuse a young African-American kid, and the police come up to you, and they say, 'What are you doing, Cliff?'" And I said, "Well, this kid deserved it. I just beat him to a pulp." If the police officer looks at me and says, "Let's go to Starbucks together", you all would be outraged. What incredible racism, what amazing injustice. Good.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Don't make the same mistake with God. If you define God as being love, lovey dovey, and expect Him not to judge me for whooping up on the African-American kid. If you expect God not to judge me for my evil, then let's be real honest. That kid doesn't matter to God. The same way, if the police say to me, "Let's go to Starbucks." After I whoop up on an African-American kid, they're saying something very clearly, "Cliff, that little African-American kid does not matter." If God doesn't judge, He does not love. If God doesn't judge, it means people do not matter to God. And the opposite is true. People matter to God, and therefore, when we mess with each other's heads and bodies, He judges us.

• 42:23Tucker Carlson?

  I don't, however, see the message of forgiveness between people in the Old Testament in the way that I see it in the New Testament. It does seem like there was a change. I mean, no one in the Old Testament that I read was saying, "Turn the other cheek."

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 42:37Tucker Carlson?

  That you can't be forgiven until you forgive, which are like central messages, obviously, of Jesus. So, it, does it, I mean, that seems like a change to me.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Okay. I would agree with you that, indeed, it's not articulated quite as clearly as it is in the New Testament. But gosh, you gotta read the book of Hosea. Hosea is married to a woman named Gomer.

• 42:57Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yes.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  They have a little baby, and Hosea is holding that little baby in his hands, and all of a sudden, he realizes, "I ain't the daddy."

• 43:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Number two child, same thing. Number three child, same thing. Hosea is holding that little kid in his hands, and all of a sudden, he realizes, "I ain't the daddy." It gets to the point where Hosea has to go down to the slave market to barter against other men to buy back his wife. And God is banging on Hosea's door, saying, "Hosea, do you know the pain that you experience over your wife's sexual unfaithfulness? Well, that is the same pain that I experience over human beings who've been unfaithful to me, who I created to love me and live in relationship with me, and they turn their backs on me. I am a suffering God. I hurt over that. But I am a gracious God who offers forgiveness." God's patience with a stubborn Israelite people is incredible.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  They deserved His wrath long before they got it at the hands of the Assyrians and Babylonians.

• 43:53Tucker Carlson?

  So you think that they were required to forgive in the same way that Jesus required His disciples and followers to forgive?

• 44:01Speaker 01

  But it was not articulated as clearly. You're absolutely correct. It was not articulated as clearly, but the seeds of it are all there. I mean, God, when he confronts Adam and Eve in Genesis, chapter three, after their rebellion, God bless you.

• 44:18Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, thank you. You are just the man to send a blessing of God to a sneezing podcast host. Thank you.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  So God is very gracious to Adam and Eve. God is very gracious to Cain after he kills his brother Abel. He doesn't wipe him out. He puts a mark on him and says, no, Cain, now you keep going through this thing called life. God is incredibly gracious to Abraham, who says to Pharaoh, this woman, Sarah, she ain't my wife. She's my sister. So of course you can take her to be part of your harem.

• 44:51Tucker Carlson?

  He said that twice, two different cases. I was shocked by that and not impressed. I just got to be honest. Like everyone loves Abraham, but what?

• 44:59Speaker 01

  What?

• 45:00Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 45:02Tucker Carlson?

  I know. I don't. They never taught that in my church. God is clearly gracious and forgiving. He created people and he wants them to thrive. I got that message all throughout the Old Testament. What I didn't get was the command that people should be gracious to each other. Didn't get that. Whereas that is kind of at the heart of the New Testament.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:23Tucker Carlson?

  I don't see that in the Old, but I'm no scholar. I just read it once.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  No, but you're right. There is a lot more barbarism in the Old Testament. And I think a lot of that has to do with culture. I mean, let's be honest, Tucker. I don't think that you and I are talking to each other the way we are by accident. I think there are a lot of reasons. And I think one of the reasons is that you grew up where you did and I grew up where I did. And you and I were privileged to have a lot of wonderful people pour some very good teaching into our lives. We grew up where respecting each other was valued. And I think you are the beneficiaries of that.

• 46:00Tucker Carlson?

  For sure. I know I am.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  I certainly am myself. But when you go into a different culture, where there are not those kind of practices and good habits, I think that there's a lot of problems that start rising rather quickly. That is why I'm a lot more patient with people who grew up where dad was just a monger, just roasted his kids.

• 46:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Was so cruel. I'm a lot more patient in understanding those people than those people who grew up in homes that they had a mom and a dad who really loved them and cared for them.

• 46:30Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 46:33Tucker Carlson?

  Um. So you think the culture changed? The culture that we read about in the Bible?

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Yes. Correct. Big culture changes.

• 46:41Tucker Carlson?

  Big. So

• 46:45Tucker Carlson?

  the questions that you get from students in 2025, how are they different from the ones you got from students in 1980?

• 46:53Speaker 01

  There's an amazing similarity. The biggest difference is the emotional change.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  My dad grew up in Switzerland. When my dad was 18, he had a gun sitting up in the Alps as he watched Hitler's Panzer divisions approach Switzerland. My grandpa was on the front lines with his gun. They didn't know whether those Panzer divisions were to crash into Switzerland or not.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  The gossip is that Mussolini called Hitler and said, "My money's in Switzerland. Let's not go into there." For whatever reason, those Panzer divisions stopped and did not go into Switzerland. But that's what my dad had to deal with.

• 47:29Tucker Carlson?

  Can I also say that the Swiss shot down American airplanes, a bunch of them? They shot down, absolutely they did. They killed a lot of Allied airmen.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 47:38Tucker Carlson?

  You couldn't fly over Switzerland and the Swiss were like pretty determined to enforce that rule.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 47:43Tucker Carlson?

  Being like ornery mountain people, which they definitely are. And yeah, yeah. No, they don't want anyone in Switzerland, period.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:49Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, it's my favorite fact. And I don't want it to be lost to history. Yeah, I do too. I mean, I'm not for killing American airmen, of course, but I am for sort of independence.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's excellent.

• 48:00Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, sorry, interrupt.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's what my dad went through as an 18-year-old. I was speaking on campuses when President Trump won the first time.

• 48:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  And I watched 18-year, 19-year-olds and 20-year-olds go for grief counseling because Donald Trump won.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  That's amazing. You talk about emotionally fragile.

• 48:21Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  The difference between a guy sitting up in the Alps, watching Hitler's Panzer divisions come,

• 48:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  and having to have the emotional courage and the emotional strength to handle that versus, "I gotta go to a crying room because Donald Trump just won the election." I mean, that's pathetic. That is tragic.

• 48:38Tucker Carlson?

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• 49:48Tucker Carlson?

  So you notice that in the questions that you get, people feel more on edge?

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Yes. There's an emotional sensitivity that I think at times is sad.

• 49:59Tucker Carlson?

  Where do you think that comes from?

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Well, I think it comes from a lot of things. I think it comes from the breakdown of the home. If you don't understand love and experience love at an early age, and if you don't begin to understand that at the heart of the cosmos there's a God who really loves you. If you don't really begin to understand that Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so. And if you think your value really depends on you winning a ballgame, you winning a deal, you having a bigger bank account than your competitor. I mean, good gracious, how insecure. And so there's tremendous insecurity that comes from thinking that my value depends upon whether my body's a two, four, six, eight, or 10. I mean, you think about that. I mean, you think about my value depends upon whether I can put a better selfie up,

• 50:42Speaker 01

  whether I can post a better selfie to appear to be more together than you are. I mean, you talk about emotional fragility. You talk about identity crisis. I mean, it's scary. So the breakdown of the family, the whole emphasis of materialism, which is, yeah, it's all about how you look and how much you own. Yeah, you build your life on that. Come on. Things are going to crumble fairly quickly unless you're very successful and then you get to be where Tom Brady is and you ask, okay, six Super Bowl rings. Now, what do I do? What's it all about, Alfie?

• 51:15Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. Yeah, winning is often the worst thing for a man, I've noticed. Because it shows in stark relief the limits of this world.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Doesn't it?

• 51:29Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, well, sure. I mean, you got everything you wanted and you're still not fulfilled. So like, what else is there?

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 51:34Tucker Carlson?

  No, I've seen that a lot. I've experienced it to some extent.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  Same here.

• 51:37Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. So when you say they're more fragile when they ask you questions, like, what do you mean? Like, how do you know they're more fragile? How do they behave?

• 51:46Speaker 01

  I have to be more careful the way I answer their questions. In the 80s and 90s, I used to be able to come back more strongly. Now I have to be careful that I'm not going to blow people out of the water emotionally.

• 52:00Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Because then I lose their ear.

• 52:04Tucker Carlson?

  So like in the 80s, you would just be like at Wesleyan, you'd be like, you're going to hell. But you can't say that now.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Well, I wouldn't say that, even in the 80s.

• 52:13Tucker Carlson?

  Even at Wesleyan?

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Well, I never was at Wesleyan, but I was at Wellesley. Oh, man, I went to Smith, spoke at Smith. Oh, my goodness.

• 52:21Tucker Carlson?

  What was that like?

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Oh, that was painful. That was embarrassing. Can you imagine? I, a white male, standing up at Smith College and telling women that they needed to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? That did not go well.

• 52:35Tucker Carlson?

  You didn't win a lot of souls that day?

• 52:37Speaker 01

  No, we did not see many people say, oh, that's interesting. I'd love to talk more with you. Wellesley was a little different, but boy, Smith was intense.

• 52:45Tucker Carlson?

  A lot of happy people at Smith?

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:48Tucker Carlson?

  A lot of joy there?

• 52:53Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, excuse me.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm afraid you nailed that one.

• 52:56Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, you know, I think it's fair to judge a worldview, a religion, a commitment of any kind by its fruit, right? I mean, I-

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Well put.

• 53:06Tucker Carlson?

  And, well, I'm stealing the line, but I think it's applicable just to the world.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:10Tucker Carlson?

  Right? If it's so great, show me how great it is by the way that you yourself live.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 53:16Tucker Carlson?

  And if people are, I haven't been to Smith in a long time. Last time I was there, I picked up a hitchhiker outside its gates. But it was miserable in the 80s when I was last there. I'm sure it's miserable now. And so that's like kind of a bad advertisement for whatever belief system they're buying into, isn't it?

• 53:34Speaker 01

  I certainly would agree with that.

• 53:37Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 53:39Tucker Carlson?

  So then this leads to my sort of meta question, which is, why does everyone hate Christianity so much? When, there are certainly a lot of lousy Christians and hypocrites, of course, using the church for their own ends and they're televangelists and, you know, whatever, I could go on and on and on, kid touchers. But generally, rank and file Christians are, everyone knows this, way happier than everybody else.

• 54:07Tucker Carlson?

  So why is everyone mad at them?

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Well, I have a good reason to be mad at God. God impinges on my freedom to do whatever I want.

• 54:17Tucker Carlson?

  Ah, okay.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  I don't want you telling me, Tucker, what I should do. And I don't want God telling me what I should do. I don't want anybody telling me what to do, because I bought into a false definition of freedom, which is, freedom means doing whatever you want to do. It's not true.

• 54:31Tucker Carlson?

  But no one, no one believes it. There's not one person on the planet who believes you should do whatever you want to do. Everybody has a strict belief system. The ladies who confronted you about loving racists.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:42Tucker Carlson?

  Like, their religion tells them that racists are not human, whatever a racist is, by the way.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:48Tucker Carlson?

  And you're required to hate them. So they've got their own rules too.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Well put.

• 54:51Tucker Carlson?

  Everybody has their own rules.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 54:54Tucker Carlson?

  Christianity is no different from secular liberalism. It's no different from Buddhism or communism, or in the sense that it has a code, a moral code.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 55:04Tucker Carlson?

  And people who step outside are apostates. So that's just, that's the nature of moral codes.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:10Tucker Carlson?

  I think the difference is the Christians seem like pretty happy, pretty joyful, pretty light.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 55:16Tucker Carlson?

  Uh, certainly lighter than the ladies of Smith. So, so like, why are people mad at them for that? I don't get it.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, God is offensive in that God tells me what is right sexually, what is right financially, what is right when it comes to use of power. And I would just as soon not believe in a being who can see through the keyhole into my life. I'd like to put my finger over the keyhole and say, there is no God who really sees me, who's going to hold me responsible.

• 55:43Tucker Carlson?

  Ah.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Come on, the day of judgment is intimidating. The idea that I'm

• 55:47Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that may be the difference, right?

• 55:49Speaker 01

  And have to give an answer for my life. I mean, gosh. But that's where the cross of Christ comes in so powerfully. He bled and died on a cross to forgive me, to wash away my sin, to give me eternal life. And my confidence is in Him, not in myself and my moral rectitude.

• 56:07Tucker Carlson?

  So is it the challenge of judgment? Is that what makes people mad?

• 56:12Speaker 01

  It's part of it.

• 56:14Tucker Carlson?

  You think there's a supernatural element here?

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 56:17Tucker Carlson?

  I do notice that like the free to be you and me people, I've always kind of been a free to be you and me person, by the way, for the record, don't actually want to convert anyone at gunpoint to anything.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:29Tucker Carlson?

  Um, but they draw the line at Christianity. Like they, you know, you can free to be whatever you want, but the Jesus people aren't allowed.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:39Tucker Carlson?

  I have noticed that.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. But what I've noticed about you, Tucker, is You enjoy shooting guns?

• 56:46Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  You don't want anybody telling you, "I can't shoot guns."

• 56:50Tucker Carlson?

  I definitely don't want anyone telling me I can't shoot guns.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:53Tucker Carlson?

  That is definitely true. You got me.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  But one of the things I respect that I've heard you say several times is, "And I am committed to my wife."

• 57:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  And I don't have respect for a lot of politicians who have a real hard time understanding what commitment to their wife means.

• 57:07Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Well, I'm afraid those politicians would argue, "Yeah, I'm sexually free." And why are you so limited to one woman, Tucker? And I think Jesus Christ was spot on, and I think you're very wise to make the decisions you have.

• 57:24Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, and to put a finer point on it, it's not just that I don't respect them for cheating, though, yeah, I think that's wrong. But I don't respect them for not paying any attention. I think if you're... I look at someone who wants to make decisions for hundreds of millions of people whose wife is desperately unhappy. And I'm like, "If you can't even make her happy, how are you presuming to make decisions for me?"

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Well put.

• 57:46Tucker Carlson?

  I mean that, and not just the wife, the children. If your kids don't respect you, if your wife doesn't respect you, why should I respect you?

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 57:53Tucker Carlson?

  And I absolutely mean that.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 57:55Tucker Carlson?

  And I know... So, I mean, everyone has like, whatever, problems in their marriage, you know, life is long and people screw up and all this stuff.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  We all have problems in our marriages.

• 58:03Tucker Carlson?

  Trying not to be too judgmental about it.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:04Tucker Carlson?

  But long-term, if your wife is not impressed by you, why should I be?

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:11Tucker Carlson?

  And I think that's totally fair. I don't think that's judgy.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:15Tucker Carlson?

  And by the way, it's okay if your wife doesn't respect you. Just don't try to control my country.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:20Tucker Carlson?

  Fair?

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:21Tucker Carlson?

  Like, why should you have a leadership position?

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:25Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. I mean, that's... Anyway, that's my position on it. But I just think it's interesting that Christianity is the one thing that... That a certain sort of modern mindset won't tolerate.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:41Tucker Carlson?

  Any other religion is fine, Christianity not allowed.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Fascinating.

• 58:45Tucker Carlson?

  And that, to me, is evidence that it's true.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Very good. I like that, Tucker.

• 58:50Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know, but I'm just guessing.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  But you also alluded to the spiritual battle that we are in.

• 58:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  And anybody has a problem with the devil, with the demonic, I would encourage them to read M. Scott Peck, the great Connecticut psychiatrist's book, People of the Lie.

• 59:05Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing book.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Isn't it? And I think he does an incredible job pointing out, if you look at the Meleil massacre, and you walk away saying, "Oh, that was just human beings messing up." You're out of touch with reality, bud. There is a spiritual force of evil that is at work in the Meleil massacre.

• 59:22Tucker Carlson?

  Acting on people from outside and influencing their behavior.

• 59:26Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And that's why Jesus cast demons out of people. It's why Paul writes in Ephesians, Chapter 6, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." There's a spiritual battle that is raging. And whether it's Paul, Jesus, or M. Scott Peck, they're all saying the same thing. Open your eyes and realize there's this personal force of evil called Satan. C.S. Lewis put it beautifully when he pointed out, "There are two mistakes you can make when you're thinking about the devil. One is to make too much of him. Oh, the devil's behind every tree. The devil always does it. Everything's a result of the devil's doing." That's to make too much of him. But the other's to make too little of him.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  "Oh, you know who the devil is? The little dude in the red jumpsuit with a little black pitchfork and black ears." Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha. What a ridiculous stereotype. No, the devil is a very suave, very debonair, personal force of evil, who reeks of evil and destructiveness that's scary.

• 1:00:30Tucker Carlson?

  It's a... I think everything you said is true, and I think every honest person can feel it, no matter what your religious faith. We are being acted on from the outside by unseen forces all the time. And it's our job to resist or obey, depending on the force, of course, but... But the message in some ways is exculpatory, though, I think. I mean, it's not a... It's not an entirely judgmental message. It's like, actually, you are a... You're being acted on by outside. Pawn is probably too strong, but you're still... I mean, Judas betrays Jesus and then dies.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Yup.

• 1:01:07Tucker Carlson?

  On the other hand, it says really clearly, Satan enters him.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Yup.

• 1:01:12Tucker Carlson?

  So he's like a bad guy stealing money from the other 11 and all that, for sure. I'm not defending Judas, of course, but he is also in some sense like, he exists to fulfill a prophecy. He is kind of in some ways like not fully a player. He's, I don't want to say victim, but do you see what I'm saying?

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  That's an issue that a lot of people raise. How can there be free will and God be sovereign and all powerful? What's going on here? Who's pulling the levers? Often a passage out of Exodus that's brought up is, "The Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart." So did Pharaoh really have a choice in the matter? Six times before we read in Exodus, "The Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart," we read, "Pharaoh hardened his heart."

• 1:02:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, no, that's right.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  So I think we've got to be careful with this one. Yes, God is all powerful, but I agree with C.S. Lewis that God chose to partially limit his power by giving us a free will. If I haul back, slap you in the face and then say, "Oh, Tucker, God made me do it." You know, I'm a con artist, I'm a hypocrite, I'm a liar. God gave me a hand. He gave me the hand to respect you, to love you. But because he gave me a free will, I can roll this hand into a fist and send it crashing into your handsome face. And if I blame God, I'm a con artist, I'm a liar. So I would argue that yes, God is all powerful, but God has chosen to partially limit his power by giving us free will. Why didn't God have Hitler's mother have a miscarriage? I don't know.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Seems to me it would have saved a lot of lives.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  But God has chosen to limit his power by giving us a free will. Now, the day of judgment is coming when God will hold me responsible for the way I exercised my free will. So I'm not just free to go out and do whatever and never be held responsible. I am responsible for what I do and God will guarantee that justice ultimately triumphs, for there will be a day of judgment.

• 1:03:21Tucker Carlson?

  The lesson that I take from the Mila massacre, I'm the Scott Peck book. Did you know him by the way?

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:03:26Tucker Carlson?

  You live in Connecticut, so I just.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 1:03:29Tucker Carlson?

  I never met Scott Peck. He's gone now, but amazing, amazing.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:34Tucker Carlson?

  And complicated person, but really insightful person. The fact that a Connecticut psychiatrist could wind up writing a book like that.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  No kidding.

• 1:03:44Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, not, he did not play to type.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:48Tucker Carlson?

  The lesson that I take from the Mila massacre is these were like Cali and the rest of them, pretty ordinary guys. Like, I don't think they had histories of mass murder before they got to Vietnam.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:03:57Tucker Carlson?

  And yet they wound up committing just that and murdering women and children, and it was murder.

• 1:04:04Tucker Carlson?

  The lesson that I take is that like, any of us is capable of that, including me.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:04:10Tucker Carlson?

  And so the temptation is to when you see somebody doing something really awful, like I would never do that. I try to remind myself, I think we all should, that like, under certain circumstances, I'd probably do anything.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Yep, same here.

• 1:04:24Tucker Carlson?

  And

• 1:04:27Tucker Carlson?

  I think that's true.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:04:30Tucker Carlson?

  So what is that? What does that tell us about people?

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Well, this is where a lot of people have trouble with the Bible, the whole issue of a sinful nature.

• 1:04:40Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Dallas Willard used to be head of the philosophy department at USC out in Los Angeles. And the way Dallas Willard described the sinful nature was a readiness to sin factor. We're all born with a readiness to sin factor. When I was six years old and playing with a little friend of mine in the sandbox, at one point I picked up the metal truck and dropped it on the little kid's head. I had never seen that behavior modeled before.

• 1:05:10Tucker Carlson?

  Did he deserve it?

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:05:12Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  He offended me.

• 1:05:14Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  And I exaggerated the offense, took too great an offense at it and dropped the metal truck on his head. Pretty sad. So, yes, we're all born in the image of God. We all have a conscience, this innate moral indicator. But we also have this readiness to sin factor. And that is part of the human dilemma. And guess what? It's part of why Blaise Pascal believed in Jesus. Because Blaise Pascal understood the glory and the wretchedness of the human being. And it's one of the reasons I do. My observation and my experience of reality is, everybody does incredible good at times.

• 1:05:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  And everybody does incredible evil at times.

• 1:06:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, that's, that's correct.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  I mean, I referred to my dad earlier. Tucker, when my dad was a Swiss Boy Scout, he was walking through the Alps with his Boy Scout troop one day, and they bumped into a group of Nazi officers. Now, I don't know if this is true, Tucker, but supposedly, one of those Nazis was Adolf Hitler himself. Hitler did not cut my dad off at the knees. Hitler was very gracious to my father as a little Swiss Boy Scout. And then he went ahead and did some of the most horrible atrocities imaginable. All of us have incredible potential for good, and all of us have tremendous potential for evil.

• 1:06:37Tucker Carlson?

  That's so obviously true, and anyone, um, you know, old enough to observe the world knows that.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:45Tucker Carlson?

  Observe himself knows that.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:47Tucker Carlson?

  Why did you say that people have problems with that statement? Do you get resistance to that observation?

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Because there's a type of evolutionary optimism that says we've been evolving for a long, long time. And we're at the point where we are really good people.

• 1:07:06Tucker Carlson?

  Really? Oh, is it, is that right, Cliff? Okay.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  And even Rousseau, the Frenchman, thought we were all born perfect, and it was society that corrupted us. The fascinating thing is Rousseau had his nanny dump five of his kids on the steps of the hospital, disowning his kids, so they could either be adopted or starve to death. Wow, we're all born perfect. Is that right, Jean-Jacques Rousseau? I doubt it.

• 1:07:36Tucker Carlson?

  It's funny. I mean, things have changed so much that Rousseau was taken seriously when I was a child. We read Rousseau.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:43Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think anyone knows who Rousseau is now, anyway, because everyone's on TikTok. But I, I think Rousseau is regarded as a villain and an idiot by most people now. No? Or maybe I'm just too in my own world?

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  No, I, I understand.

• 1:07:58Tucker Carlson?

  Can I just pause? I just want to go back and have you flesh it a little bit more. What kind of reactions do you get from students when you say people are not inherently all good?

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Tucker, if you were my son, and I were to try and convince you, Tucker, you really do have innate value, but there is no God who made you, but you do have innate value. You do have real value, Tucker. Do you get it, Tucker? You're valuable. You're the greatest. You are the greatest. And I want you to go home now, Tucker, and I want you to repeat that to yourself 100 times. I am the greatest. I am the greatest. I am the greatest. And you and I live in a culture that is so filled with that type of thinking, that we just have to affirm ourselves, affirm ourselves, affirm ourselves, to try and convince ourselves that we really do have value. And that's

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  a short walk into fantasy land.

• 1:08:54Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's also so obviously not true that it creates a lot of inner tension and anxiety in the person who's hearing it.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  Bingo.

• 1:09:04Tucker Carlson?

  Because you know you're not the greatest, actually.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:09:07Tucker Carlson?

  And you know who you are on some level.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:09:09Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe not all the details, but you know you're a mixed bag like everybody.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:09:14Tucker Carlson?

  And so to have to, to live in a lie like that makes you tense.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  Doesn't it?

• 1:09:21Tucker Carlson?

  I think it does.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  I think it does also.

• 1:09:25Tucker Carlson?

  So when, but so when you say that, people get their dander up.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:09:31Tucker Carlson?

  What do they say?

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  You are so judgmental, calling me a sinner. Who do you think you are?

• 1:09:38Tucker Carlson?

  What do you say?

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  Do you support the law that says equal housing opportunity? Do you respect the law that says I'm not allowed to be biased against people of different ethnic heritages when I rent my apartment? Yeah, I think you do, don't you? And so do I. We all have to make judgments. So please don't tell me you don't make judgments. We all make judgments, and we better make judgments between what is good and what is evil. Now, obviously, the difficult ethical question is, what is good and what is evil? Where should we draw the boundary lines? But please don't tell me that I'm being judgmental. You're just as much judgmental as I am. And when Jesus says, "Judge not lest ye be judged," He's not saying, "Suspend your critical thinking and blindly accept everything is equally valid."

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  Baloney. 14 verses later, in Matthew 7:15, Jesus says, "Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves, and they will eat your lunch, guys. So don't be gullible." You've got to be skeptical, Jesus is teaching. Why? Because good and evil are so intertwined in this messed up world we live in, that if you're not skeptical, you'll get ripped off. Don't do that. It's not smart.

• 1:10:51Tucker Carlson?

  So, again, you're just making the point that everybody has a kind of strict religion.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:58Tucker Carlson?

  But, you know, only one is true, which is your position, and the rest are just silly.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Well, I'm not trying to say that only one is true mind, because I've made a lot of mistakes when it comes to defining right and wrong. What I am saying is, because there's a supernatural God, whose character is good, therefore, throughout eternity, good is real. Objectively real. It's not a subjective taste. It's real. And God has hardwired you and me in such a way that we have consciences and rational minds, and by exercising our consciences and rational minds in a responsible way, we can really begin to understand what is good and what is evil. I mean, Tucker, to be honest with you... The biggest ethical dilemma that I face in life is, in light of the fact that we have

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  the solution for starving babies, why do I keep as much money for myself? Why do I not give more away? So for me to come riding into town on some ethical high horse is a little ridiculous, because I've got my own blind spots. I've got my own prejudices. But what I seek to do, Tucker, is to point people to Jesus Christ, to point people to have a relationship with Him, to pray to Him for wisdom, to ask His Holy Spirit to sensitize their consciences, so they can begin to distinguish between what is good and what is evil, what is morally responsible and what is morally irresponsible.

• 1:12:29Tucker Carlson?

  I bet you get a lot of questions about gays and abortion.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:36Tucker Carlson?

  So let's go in order. What kind of questions you get about gays and how do you respond?

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  My first point is, I have to apologize to the gay lesbian population for the way they have been viewed as inferior pieces of dirt by certain quote Christians unquote. That is false. Gay bashing is not an option for a fall of Christ, because a fall of Christ understands all people are created in the image of God. That is the basis for our value and dignity. Second point, the Bible insists that all of us were created for a purpose, and according to Christ, the purpose of life is to love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbors yourself. In the same way that God made us for a purpose, He made our sexuality for a purpose. And we read about this in Genesis 2:24.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  We read, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, be united to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." So it's not the federal government that created marriage. It's not culture that created marriage. God did. God created our sexuality. God could have happened, could have had procreation happen at the end of a Q-tip, when a man and a woman mixed their earwax, little babies could have been born from that. He didn't. He chose to create us male and female, and that is beautiful. That is a precious, precious gift from Him. Now He says it's such an important gift that it's to be experienced within the context of a lifelong commitment. You separate sex from a lifelong commitment, you're going down a destructive path, Christ says.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  So, third point would be, I have perverted the gift of sex that God gave me. Through my heterosexual lust, I have perverted that gift. I desperately need God's grace. I need His Holy Spirit to change me to live a sexually pure life, and that's not easy for me. That's hard. When anybody ever says to me, Cliff, I was born this way. I often look them in the face and say, yeah, I was born a heterosexual male. Do you think my heterosexual sex drive motivates me to have sex with just one woman? And I'm waiting for the guys to laugh.

• 1:14:47Tucker Carlson?

  I'm guessing not, yeah.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Eventually, they do laugh.

• 1:14:52Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  Obviously, we heterosexual males do not have a sex drive to have sex with just one woman. Instead, we have to exercise self-control, make a commitment to just one woman, and then enjoy sex within the context of a lifelong commitment. That's marriage. So, I communicate that as clearly as I can to people. They don't like what they hear, and it's fascinating, Tucker, over the past 45 years, to watch the gay lesbian groups on university campuses around the United States become the most highly organized, the most passionate groups on campus. I think that's changing, though, recently, and I'm so excited over that. But there has been a clear agenda, a very clear agenda.

• 1:15:38Tucker Carlson?

  And I, I mean, you don't have to agree, of course, but I, also the most hateful, I would say. I've never dealt with anybody like that, ever. Did you, so like, but in 1980, was that a question that you got?

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, occasionally.

• 1:15:52Tucker Carlson?

  And now, how often do you get it?

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  I think it's spiked, and it's going down. It's not quite as prevalent. I don't know exactly why, but I'm not being asked as often about it. But when I am, it can turn into a firestorm rather quickly.

• 1:16:09Tucker Carlson?

  I think, you know, whatever you think of it, I think people are starting to understand that's not the road to happiness. And if it was the road to happiness, why all the hate? That's a bad sign, you know, people who are that hateful, whatever they're doing isn't working right. And that's not my fault, actually.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Sorry. Well put, well put.

• 1:16:30Tucker Carlson?

  What, uh, what kind of questions you get about abortion?

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  You gotta be kidding me. You're a white male and you're telling me that abortion is wrong? Where on earth are you coming from?

• 1:16:43Tucker Carlson?

  White male? What does white have to do with it?

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  Oh, I think that there are certain stereotypes that exist and for some reason, being a white male is not cool. I mean, one of the things that spiked our popularity on TikTok was a blond-haired woman at University of Texas came out to our open-air meeting and really went after me. You gotta be kidding me. You, a white male, are standing out here telling us that we need God, that we need Christ? Are you kidding me? This is the most absurd thing I've ever seen. And I said, now, wait a second, wait a second. What does white have to do with it? What does me having, being a male have to do with it? We're talking about Jesus Christ, and I'm not Jesus. We're talking about an historical figure who lived, taught,

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  died, and rose from the dead. The historical evidence is, he's reliable. I'm not asking you to join me. I'm asking you to seriously consider Christ and to put your faith in him, for he is reliable in a way that I am not. You don't know me from Adam. So, walk away from me, but please read the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John for yourself and ask yourself, does the historical evidence of the way Jesus lived, taught, died, and rose from the dead point to his credibility, his trustworthiness, or not? Well, she didn't like it. But it's, you know, there's so many stereotypes out there, so much prejudice. It's incredible.

• 1:18:08Tucker Carlson?

  I kind of, I mean, by the way, if evolution is real, then why haven't we evolved past that? We seem to be evolving toward it. And I, I was taught as a kid in the 70s that, like, prejudice like that, writing people off immediately on the basis of the way they look, was like the one thing you weren't allowed to do.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:29Tucker Carlson?

  But it has become ubiquitous.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep.

• 1:18:32Tucker Carlson?

  So, why? Why? I mean, in 1980, no one could have stood up

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:39Tucker Carlson?

  in public and said, shut up, black man, shut up, white man,

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:18:43Tucker Carlson?

  shut up, Jew, shut up, Christian. Like, you absolutely could not say that.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:47Tucker Carlson?

  But now, it's just, it's everywhere. Why?

• 1:18:52Tucker Carlson?

  Why is it culture committed to nondiscrimination becoming ever more discriminatory in ever dumber ways? Not discriminatory in the sense that like, I like fish, not steak.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:05Tucker Carlson?

  But discriminatory in like, you know, anyone, appearance is the most important factor.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:12Tucker Carlson?

  It's about somebody.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:14Tucker Carlson?

  I just think it's very weird.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  Well, a great man once said, "I'm looking forward to the day when my children's value is not going to be determined by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

• 1:19:28Tucker Carlson?

  That's like considered incredibly racist now to say that. It's like, and I do think it has something to do with what you so eloquently described at the outset of our conversation, which is, once you stop acknowledging the human soul, which can only be granted by God, like if there's no God, there's no soul.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:19:44Tucker Carlson?

  You're, you're just a hunk of meat.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:19:47Tucker Carlson?

  Once you discount that, then the most important thing about you becomes the way you look.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:19:53Tucker Carlson?

  Or who your parents were.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:19:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Tragic.

• 1:19:57Tucker Carlson?

  So there are people matter about abort, like, so Roe v. Wade gets overturned. It's a big deal. We don't really talk about it that much. Anti-abortion people lose a bunch of elections, so it seems like the country's becoming more for abortion. But is it becoming more for abortion? I mean, you're kind of out there talking to people in a way that most are not. What do you think?

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  I think there's a real divide. I think there are more people who are more committed to pro-choice, and there are more people committed to, no, pro-life. For me, the issue becomes, what does God say? The word abortion is never used in the Bible.

• 1:20:35Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  But we clearly read in the Ten Commandments, "You shall not murder."

• 1:20:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  So the question becomes, when does human life begin?

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  In every major university or hospital in the United States, if a body lying on a bed in an intensive care unit has brain activity and heartbeat, doctors and nurses are legally, ethically responsible to do everything within their power to sustain that life.

• 1:20:57Tucker Carlson?

  And generally, they do.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Good. So between six to eight weeks after conception, that quote "little piece of skin in a woman's womb" has both brain activity and heartbeat. So I would hope that the majority of us would be able to agree. Between six to eight weeks, that's no longer just a piece of skin. That's a human life. It's got brain activity and heartbeat. So let's not abort after eight weeks. Hopefully, we all can agree on that. Then the next question is, well, what's the difference between a one-minute-old fertilized egg and an eight-week-old fertilized egg, an eight-day-old fertilized egg, a 60-year-old fertilized egg? And I would argue the only difference is in kind.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Excuse me. The only difference is in degree of maturation, not in kind.

• 1:21:44Tucker Carlson?

  It's the same thing, just a different

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:21:47Tucker Carlson?

  ...point along a continuum.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:21:49Tucker Carlson?

  So is a one-year-old different from an 80-year-old? Well, yeah, in lots of ways, but fundamentally, it's the same person, still a person.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:22:00Tucker Carlson?

  So, um, this is not a conversation that you even hear anymore. You used to hear this conversation, this debate about when life begins.

• 1:22:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:22:09Tucker Carlson?

  Do you hear that conversation?

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  A little bit. You're right, it spiked a few years ago, and it's been going downhill since then.

• 1:22:17Tucker Carlson?

  It just seems like that debate, which is a debate about specifics, has been replaced with slogans shouted back and forth, "Pro-choice, pro-life", which are phrases that I personally hate, because I don't really know what they mean.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:33Tucker Carlson?

  Have you noticed that?

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  Yep, correct.

• 1:22:37Tucker Carlson?

  How big a deal is abortion?

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  It's a humongous deal.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  People are talking about a human life. Euthanasia, tremendous issue. We're talking about a human life. "Oh, but they're senile. They have dementia, Cliff, they have Alzheimer's." Yeah. "But they're still a human being, created in the image of God."

• 1:22:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, they're probably still more aware of the world than my two-year-old.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:02Tucker Carlson?

  Can I kill my two-year-old?

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:23:04Tucker Carlson?

  What are you even talking about?

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:06Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, what?

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Yep. But the sad thing is Peter Singer, professor emeritus at Princeton, used to stand very strongly for abortion and even killing a newly born child. And yet I respect him because he really had a heart for the poor. And he personally, I happen to know that he personally gave a lot of money away to feed hungry people. So he's kind of a, seems to me to be a confused gentleman, who understands the value of human life and that we're going to feed starving people. But if I want to destroy a newborn infant, go ahead. I mean,

• 1:23:42Tucker Carlson?

  It was always amazing to me that you could have a tenured professor at an Ivy League college, which gets billions in federal funding,

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:49Tucker Carlson?

  Advocate openly for murder. Why not just cut off federal funding?

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Bingo.

• 1:23:53Tucker Carlson?

  If he advocated for murdering black people,

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:57Tucker Carlson?

  murdering Israeli settlers,

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Tucker Carlson?

  They'd be like, no, we're not going to have this. No way. No way.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:24:03Tucker Carlson?

  But you can advocate for murdering kids and it's, you keep your funding. I don't understand that at all.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  Neither do I.

• 1:24:11Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think, um, I mean, part of the problem with abortion is so many people participated in it.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:24:18Tucker Carlson?

  And a lot of good people, by the way.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:24:21Tucker Carlson?

  Since I know a bunch of good people who participated in abortion, and we all do.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:24:26Tucker Carlson?

  Whether we know it or not.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:24:27Tucker Carlson?

  So how do you speak to those people about it? I mean, it's hard if you've participated, that either had one or paid for one,

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:36Tucker Carlson?

  been the father of a child who was born. Like, it's hard to talk to people about it at that point. They don't want to talk about it. How do you talk to people about that?

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Well, Tucker, I've got to be brutally honest with people. I am a dirty rotten sinner. Yeah. And self righteousness, Jesus attacks in the Gospels like nor the sin. That's for sure. That's the one thing he's really mad about. I noticed that. Exactly. The Pharisees. Yeah, prostitutes are fine, but self righteous people not fine. Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. So we have to be very careful that we're not approaching this issue with a self righteous chip on our shoulder. That's for sure. We all are broken people. We all have feet of clay. I certainly have blown it. Secondly, I've received the grace of God, the forgiveness of God, and he offers that to every single one of us, and all of us are in desperate need of it. I mean, gosh, one of my favorite stories

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  in the New Testament is that two thieves hung on either side of the cross of Christ. First thief turns to come on, says to Jesus, "Come on, Jesus, miracle boy from Nazareth, get us off these crosses and then we'll believe in you." Second criminal says, "You idiot, we bleed and die here because we deserve it. But this Jesus, he's the innocent, holy, pure, son of God." And that second criminal looks into Christ's face and says, "Lord Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Now, it's all right there on the line. And Jesus says? Jesus says, "Get off the cross, work in a soup kitchen, give me 12 Hail Marys, and I'll think about it." No. Yeah. That's religion. You work your way to God. No, the opposite is what Jesus does. He looks the guy in the face and he says, "I tell you the truth, today you'll be with me in paradise." See you tonight. Exactly.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  C.S. Lewis was walking through the faculty lounge, and they were having a debate. What's the difference between Christianity and every other world religion? And C.S. Lewis said, "Oh, that's easy. Grace." Every religion says, "Here are the rules. Keep them. And if you do a good enough job, maybe you'll make it. Maybe you'll work off your bad karma well enough to attain Nirvana. Maybe you'll be a good enough boy to make heaven." And Jesus says, "No, you never will be, because you will have a problem with sin. But I bled and died on a cross to give you grace, forgiveness, and eternal life. Trust in me." That's why Jesus doesn't call us to a philosophy. He doesn't call us to an institution. He calls us to himself, because it takes a personal God, a suffering God,

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  to pay the penalty for our sin, to forgive us, and to reconcile us to himself.

• 1:27:01Tucker Carlson?

  The last person Jesus forgives before he dies is a murderer.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  Yep, that's exactly right.

• 1:27:06Tucker Carlson?

  That's wild.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  Isn't that wild?

• 1:27:07Tucker Carlson?

  It is wild.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:27:09Tucker Carlson?

  So if you explain that, um, the, the very most basic precepts of your religion to someone before you tell that person actually abortion is murder, do you get people who can hear you?

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Yes, correct. Not everybody, but yes, I noticed that people begin to listen a lot more attentively. The same way if you give a good answer to a difficult question, then suddenly if people are thinking, they say, "Ooh, I dismissed Christ because I thought he was a joke. The evidence is he's not a joke. I'm gonna have to begin to think more deeply and seriously."

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  Jesus describes biblical faith as heading towards the evidence. This whole idea that faith in Christ is anti-scientific or anti-reason is total baloney. In John 14, verse 11, Jesus says, "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father's in me, or believe me because of the miracles that point to me being the truth." He doesn't say, "Just believe." He says, "No, look at the miracles, buddy, and allow the evidence to drive you to faith."

• 1:28:25Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think that people, you know, participate in a, in a murder and don't acknowledge that it's wrong and don't ask for forgiveness for participating in it, how do they suffer in this life, do you think, in this life?

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Well, the penalty for sin is sin. Sin has a way of unraveling life. We have human consciences. We all do. We all have a conscience. Now, we can sear it. We can rationalize. We can blame others for our sins, but we still have a conscience. And we have to shut that thing down in order to live with ourselves, or we can turn to Christ for forgiveness.

• 1:29:02Tucker Carlson?

  We have to shut it down in order to live with ourselves. Interesting. What is it? What is it? Can you more fully explain that?

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  I'm not very intelligent, Tucker. Until it comes to justifying whatever I want to do. When it comes to justifying what I want to do, I'm a genius.

• 1:29:21Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I went to grad school for that, yeah. Actually, did well. Dean's List.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  Congratulations.

• 1:29:29Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you know.

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:29:32Tucker Carlson?

  No, that's, that's really interesting. So, what I think you're saying is, once you accentuate, develop, hone the pattern of lying to yourself about your own behavior, it becomes...

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:29:48Tucker Carlson?

  It becomes a habit.

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely. A finely tuned habit.

• 1:29:53Tucker Carlson?

  Uh, yeah, well, I think we've all lived that. I certainly have. What about, um, the idea that if you do something really bad, like you do suffer for it? Like, bad things happen in your life?

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  Okay, now, the challenge to that is Job. When Job suffered, his buddies came to him.

• 1:30:11Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  And they were real smart. For one week, they sat there and said, "Zippo." They just sat with him. Beautiful. Compassion, comfort, integrity. Then they opened their mouths.

• 1:30:25Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  And it went south real fast.

• 1:30:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, they blamed him for his whole family dying.

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  "You're a sinner, Job. That's why you're going through this suffering." And God was going to judge them, and Job had to pray that the Lord would not judge them for that screwed up advice they gave him. Counsel. John, Chapter 9. The disciples come to Jesus and say, "Hey, Jesus, this guy born blind. Who sinned? This guy, or his mom and dad?" Jesus said, "Neither. This happened that the power of God might be displayed in his life." Does sin lead to death? Absolutely.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  Is there always a one-to-one correspondence between sin and suffering? No. One of the main points of the book of Job is, "Life is unfair, God is fair." Don't get the two mixed up. The challenge when I suffer is not to clench my fist and wave it in God's face. That's misplaced anger. The challenge when I suffer is to understand I'm born into an unfair world. Now, maybe I am suffering for some of my sin, or from the sins of somebody else. That's possible. But it's also possible that because I'm born into an unfair world, the flak is hitting the fan in my life, not because of anybody sinning or me sinning, but because of the unfairness of this world. Now, the unfairness of this world is a result of you push it all the way back to Adam and Eve

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  rebelling against God, telling God to get lost, and creation begins to unravel. So, yes, we're born into a world where there are horrible genetic birth defects, and life is unraveling. Life is unfair. And the reason I think that's so important to remember is, if I have the false expectation that life is supposed to be fair, I'm gonna be really disappointed with God.

• 1:32:11Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, life is definitely not fair.

• 1:32:16Tucker Carlson?

  There are many... Can I hit you with some hard ones?

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Go for it.

• 1:32:20Tucker Carlson?

  So, there are all kinds of references all over the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, about people being chosen by God.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:29Tucker Carlson?

  Well, the Jews being the chosen people being the most obvious, but it continues into, you know, the very end of the Gospels, and the end of John, Jesus is like, "You all were chosen." What does that mean exactly? There are lots of people who weren't chosen. Jesus's enemies died with, according to Christianity, the sin of opposition to Jesus on them. Is there like an elect who were just like chosen to be followers of Jesus? And then the rest who just weren't chosen and won't be? That seems to be what they're saying in there.

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  Very difficult question. And equally committed followers of Christ disagree.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  In my last sermon-

• 1:33:13Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, sorry to-

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I'm not sorry. It's a great issue. In the last sermon I preached, I used an illustration from South Africa. In a very, very fine South African seminary, it was taught Afrikaans are the chosen people, which means they are superior to blacks, coloreds, and Indians.

• 1:33:37Tucker Carlson?

  And Brits.

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  And Brits.

• 1:33:39Tucker Carlson?

  They hate the Brits.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 1:33:40Tucker Carlson?

  Understandably.

• 1:33:42Speaker 01

  I would argue that is a total misunderstanding of the word "chosen" in the Bible. I would argue that when the Bible talks about God choosing the Jewish people, it doesn't mean all Jews are going to heaven. It doesn't mean the Jews are superior to Gentiles. It simply means that when God chose to reveal Himself more clearly than simply through creation, general revelation,

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  He chose the Jewish prophets, and He spoke through the Hebrew prophets. And then when He chose to reveal Himself most clearly by becoming a human being, He was born a Jew. I worship a Jew, Jesus of Nazareth. It does not mean that the Jews are God's pets. No, they're valuable human beings created in the image of God. But a Jewish thug is a thug. The same way a Hamas thug is a thug. The same way a Hezbollah thug is a thug. The same way a Palestinian thug is a thug. We're all human beings created in the image of God with a free will, and we are responsible for what we do. So we gotta be real careful that we, how we handle that word "chosen."

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  And no, I do not think that God chooses certain people to go to heaven, and He chooses others to go to hell. One of the most painful experiences I had was at Stanford. I was speaking in a dorm lounge, and a lot of faculty, for some reason that I don't know, showed up. And I tried to pull those faculty out to express their worldview, their faith, whatever it was. They refused to. They remained totally silent, and it was the students who dialogued with me. But afterwards, one professor said, "All right, Cliff, let's go to the kitchen there, and let's talk." And I mean, that guy laced into me, it was incredible. And I mean, he called me some interesting words, and it just was really negative.

• 1:35:32Tucker Carlson?

  What was he mad about?

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Well, that's what I didn't know until afterwards. I went to the students who'd invited me to Stanford, and I said, "Gosh, I had the most intense discussion with your religion professor." Imaginable.

• 1:35:45Tucker Carlson?

  No one hates God more than a religion professor at Stanford.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Sorry. What was so scary was, the guy who invited me said, "Cliff, that guy grew up in a home where his dad was a minister, and he had a brother. And one day, their father looked them in the face, and said, he said to the other brother, "You're predestined to go to heaven." And he looked in the face of the guy who's now the religion professor at Stanford, but this was years ago, I doubt he's there now, and said, "And you're predestined to go to hell." Can you imagine that? What an incredible perversion of the whole idea of predestination, of the whole idea of chosen or elect. And yet here's a Stanford University religion professor who was treated that way by his own father, who was a minister.

• 1:36:32Tucker Carlson?

  It sounds like he was working to make it true, though.

• 1:36:38Tucker Carlson?

  Sounds like he was living in hell.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, doesn't it?

• 1:36:40Tucker Carlson?

  If he's yelling at you, yeah, for like, talking about the gospel, which is like, you know, nonviolent, love-based religion. Yeah, if you're mad about that, like, you're the problem, I would say. But, uh, not to be mean. But there, there does seem to be, and I, of course, could be misreading it, probably am, but at least one section, maybe a couple, where Jesus says, you know, like, "No one can come to me except those who are chosen to come to me." I think that's what he says.

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  Okay, I think the language is, unless the father draws him.

• 1:37:11Tucker Carlson?

  Correct. That's exactly right.

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  So Tucker, if I stood here, sat here, and said to you, "You know why I believe in Jesus? Because I'm a really great guy. And I just made the right decision. I'm a fool." No, I love Jesus because Jesus first loved me.

• 1:37:27Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:37:27Speaker 01

  My love for Him is not because I've got this love welling out of my heart, and I'm just such a great guy. No, He first loved me. He chose me. He drew me to Himself. I have never converted anybody. I have simply put the gospel, the good news of God's love for you in front of people. And God's Holy Spirit works in people's hearts and they either say yes or no. And I can't control that. I have no desire to control that. That's not my job. I've got to respect a person's right to walk away from Christ or to trust in Him. Because God created us that way. And when a rich young ruler, after asking Jesus how to get to heaven, finds out, he walks away with a sad look on his face.

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  And Christ doesn't go run after him and grab his cloak and say, "Oh, wait a second bud. You gotta believe in me." No, He respects the guy enough to say, "Okay. That's your decision. I respect your decision." I disagree with it totally. So I'm convinced that God allows us to walk away from Him. Tragic, and God also draws us to Himself by His Holy Spirit. But look at anthropology. Anthropology shows us that every culture has some type of religion. So I'm convinced that the only reason an atheist doesn't find God is for the same reason a criminal does not find the police. He's running away.

• 1:38:47Tucker Carlson?

  Every society is based on religion.

• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  Pardon?

• 1:38:49Tucker Carlson?

  Every society is based on religion.

• 1:38:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:51Tucker Carlson?

  Including ours. Ours is the trans religion or whatever it is. But it's still a, it's an evangelical faith. They fly the trans flag outside US embassies around the world. I mean, I'm not for it, of course, but I mean, I recognize what it is, which is a religion. It's a religion. You're flying, you're flying the flag, but instead of the cross, there's a rainbow. Do you, my last sort of overview question for you is, since you've been doing this for so long, do you think there's more persecution of Christians now? Or do you think there's a revival of Christianity in the United States? Or is there both?

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  Both.

• 1:39:28Tucker Carlson?

  Really? Tell me what you notice.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  The 20th century had more Christian martyrs than all the centuries before that combined.

• 1:39:34Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I noticed.

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:39:36Tucker Carlson?

  That's not talked about too much.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, really?

• 1:39:39Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Since the year 2000, over 50,000 Nigerian Christians have been slaughtered by terrorists for their faith in Christ. Beheaded right outside the church or inside the church building. That's tragic. That is so sick, so sad, and yet it's real. And yet I'm convinced that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. I'm convinced that to spread Christianity, I must not kill others, but be willing to die for my faith, to be killed. And that's exactly what happened in the first, second, third century.

• 1:40:16Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, big time.

• 1:40:17Speaker 01

  And when Christianity got political power, whoa, things got really difficult, really perverted, really fast. So we, as followers of Christ, we have to be very, very careful about power. We need to use it. It's a gift from God. It's a good gift from God. But we better have that same degree of skepticism that Abraham Lincoln did when he said to that minister, "No, let's not pray that God is on our side. Let's pray that we are on God's side." And that's one of the reasons that I respect a guy like Charlie Kirk. He does not buy into Christian nationalism. We're the best. Nation's number one. He understands

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  Christ is number one, and now we better get off our backsides and help make this country more serious about following Christ in our policies, in the way we do business. And I think that's awesome. I think that's absolutely fantastic.

• 1:41:14Tucker Carlson?

  There's a huge, you use the phrase "Christian nationalism," which is, I hate this term, but a hot-button phrase.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:41:21Tucker Carlson?

  But never really defined, so people

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:41:24Tucker Carlson?

  can impute whatever meaning they want to.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:41:27Tucker Carlson?

  And the meanings differ greatly. So if by "Christian nationalism" you mean you try to make it a more Christian country, that's what you just advocated for.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:36Tucker Carlson?

  If it means put a religious leader in charge of the country and make a state religion, that's an entirely different meaning, which you oppose.

• 1:41:43Speaker 01

  Beautifully put.

• 1:41:45Tucker Carlson?

  Right. So I couldn't agree with you more. Christian nationalism, I think its critics mean any effort to make it a more Christian country.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:41:55Tucker Carlson?

  Right. And so I'm opposed to the critics of Christian nationalism, but I'm against a state religion.

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  Yep. Same here.

• 1:42:01Tucker Carlson?

  Good. Okay, good. I'm sorry, but that's one of those phrases that just like evokes all kinds of

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:42:09Tucker Carlson?

  connotations that you may not have meant.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  You bet.

• 1:42:11Tucker Carlson?

  So I just wanted to put a finer point on it.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  And remember, Tucker, when I speak on state university campuses or Ivy League campuses, I am not speaking in an echo chamber. The majority of people disagree.

• 1:42:22Tucker Carlson?

  No, you're definitely not.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  The majority of people strongly disagree with me.

• 1:42:26Tucker Carlson?

  So when you're at Smith, I meant to ask you this, did you use the phrase, "Can I get an amen?" No.

• 1:42:33Speaker 01

  You didn't, okay.

• 1:42:34Tucker Carlson?

  It would've been funny if you had.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  I mean, just think, Tucker.

• 1:42:37Tucker Carlson?

  Crickets.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  This February, March, April, I was at, with Stuart. Stuart and I were at Stanford, UC Davis, UC Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Columbia, Cornell, Clemson. Those are not echo chambers.

• 1:42:58Tucker Carlson?

  How long till you get stoned and not in a fun way?

• 1:43:01Speaker 01

  Right. I don't know. And there are some people I think are a little too concerned about that. I am not concerned. I don't. I think university campuses are still very safe places, although I know there's been some problems. But no, I'm, and I know ultimately, Tucker, that my hand, my life is in the hands of Christ and I'm safe and secure. And I have a great deal of respect for the Apostle Paul when he writes in Philippians 1:23, "I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far." And that's the hope that we have as followers of Christ.

• 1:43:33Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I mean, he like wrote most of his letters chained to a wall in a dungeon somewhere.

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  It's exactly right, Tucker. It's exactly right.

• 1:43:41Tucker Carlson?

  I know it's not a holy term, but what a badass that guy was.

• 1:43:43Speaker 01

  Oh, no kidding.

• 1:43:44Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I mean, for real.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  For real is right.

• 1:43:47Tucker Carlson?

  Um, okay, so the second half of the final question, which is about revival, there is more persecution, you believe. I think objectively you're right. Harder to quantify is revival.

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  Yes, harder to quantify.

• 1:44:01Tucker Carlson?

  What's your sense?

• 1:44:03Speaker 01

  All I know is the past year, I have met more excited followers of Christ on campuses than ever before. I am very excited the way young people are taking Jesus more seriously. I do not think it's a health wealth gospel. I do not think it's a think positive gospel. I think it really grapples with good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, justice and injustice in a biblical way, not in a elitist way in the United States. So I am very, very excited about what's happening.

• 1:44:39Tucker Carlson?

  So do you run into more students who are open minded?

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  Yes. I'm getting more really personal questions. You know, whenever, whenever things are getting a little tense in the crowds outside, all I gotta do is talk about divorce and the pain of divorce and it gets real quiet.

• 1:44:56Tucker Carlson?

  Really? What do you say?

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  One of the reasons we all need Jesus Christ is because we all experience alienation. And too many of you in this crowd right now know exactly what I'm talking about. Because your mom and dad were so alienated from each other that they divorced. And you don't need me to tell you how much pain that brought into your life. And I'm sorry. It's wrong, it's not right. But what I plead with you is realize that there is a good God who wants to be your Father in heaven, to really protect you, to really care for you, who has your best interests in mind. Don't take it from me, read the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Examine this Christ for yourself.

• 1:45:42Tucker Carlson?

  And you think people are open to that?

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  Some are not.

• 1:45:46Tucker Carlson?

  They've been so betrayed by their own parents. I mean, that's what that is. It's betrayed. I mean, I've lived it, so I know. But that's, and many people have, at least half the country has. That's a betrayal of the child.

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  Bingo. You're absolutely right again.

• 1:46:04Tucker Carlson?

  And you think that makes them more open to your message?

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, because they understand alienation.

• 1:46:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  They've experienced the pain of alienation. And that's why when forgiveness is pictured in a very graphic way, and the practical, nitty gritty, boots-on-the-ground description is given of forgiveness, hopefully it's going to begin to make a little more sense, and the importance of it is going to become highlighted because they watched mom and dad who could not forgive each other and reconcile.

• 1:46:32Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, that's exactly why. That's interesting. What about drug use? Drug use is, I mean, I thought it was bad when I was a kid. It seems totally out of control now.

• 1:46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:47Tucker Carlson?

  Why do you think that is?

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  Why do I think that is?

• 1:46:51Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:53Speaker 01

  Well, I think drugs are very attractive if I'm in pain. It's a way to assuage the pain.

• 1:46:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  Why not? Papa Pill, why not get into alcohol? You know, I'm in pain, I'm hurting, and I can't stand this. So I need some relief from the pain. And I'll get to use drugs, I'll use alcohol, I'll use promiscuous lifestyle, the thrill of orgasm. I'll do whatever it need to, to take care of the pain, the meaninglessness, the angst of life. Yeah. Christ says, "Come and follow me." It's not gonna be easy, you're gonna have to do some hard work. But come and follow me, and I will give you abundant life. A life that really flourishes, that's really good, when you submit to me and trust me. And it's fun to watch more and more people begin to take Christ seriously and say, you know, "I don't think drugs and alcohol are really the way to deal with my pain."

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, I, I love to ask students the question. If you could ask God one question, what would it be? Well, I like to still play basketball, I don't really play basketball, Tucker, I waddle out there in the court. But there was this one guy out there, in the Duquesne and YMCA, who I went up to and I said, "Hey, if you could ask God one question, what would it be?" He said, "Let me think about it." You asked us on, on the court? On the court, yeah. Four minutes later, the guy comes back to me, and he says, "Guess what? I don't ask questions of beings I don't think exist." Ooh, I thought that was pretty abrupt. But I like dishonesty.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  A few weeks ago, he comes up to me and says, "Um, I'm starting to pray." I said, "Really? I thought you didn't even, I thought you, thought that God didn't exist." He said, "Uh, I almost killed myself with alcohol. I'm beginning to realize I gotta pray in order to live." I said, "Wow, that's, that's great." I'm walking out of the Y and getting in my car, and all of a sudden, from the other end of the parking lot, "Hey, remember Cliff, faith without works is dead." That's right on the book of James, at the end of the New Testament. So here's this kid who told me, "I don't pray, because I don't talk to a God who doesn't..."

• 1:49:03Speaker 01

  And I'm not going to ask you a question about God, because I don't ask questions about beings I don't think exist. Now he's gone to, now I pray, and now he's gone to quoting the book of James to me.

• 1:49:14Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not surprised. I'm not. It's the people who are mad at God who come around to God much more often than the people who just don't even think about it. Someone comes up and is like, "I don't think God exists. Oh, God. Oh, your God." He's really mad.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:28Tucker Carlson?

  And that suggests an internal tussle.

• 1:49:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:49:32Tucker Carlson?

  With his pre-existing, from birth, deep knowledge that, of course, God exists.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:36Tucker Carlson?

  And knows that.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:38Tucker Carlson?

  And he's like fighting it, and anyone who's fighting is probably, in the end, going to submit.

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. That's my instinct on it anyway.

• 1:49:46Tucker Carlson?

  Same here. That's why when, when people really go after me out in the open air, and people come, you know, humble people come up after me and say, "Cliff, are you all right?" I mean, I mean, "That guy was awful mad. He was awful offensive, wasn't he?" I'm saying, "Wait a second. I respect the guy totally. He put right out on the table what he believes."

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:50:04Tucker Carlson?

  What he doesn't believe. I loved it. I love every minute of it.

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's always people like that. It's the person who's like, "I've never thought of that before." You know what I mean? Yeah.

• 1:50:14Tucker Carlson?

  Like, what does that have to do with my job at the bank? People like that, you have a lot less hope of enlightenment for them.

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:50:22Tucker Carlson?

  Than the guy who's wrestling with God.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:26Tucker Carlson?

  Last, final question. Are you hopeful for the future of the country?

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  Yes, I am. Because I, as a follower of Christ, understand that God is ultimately sovereign. History is not a string of accidents. History is ultimately God's story. He began it in the beginning. God created the heavens and the earth, and He's going to bring it to a close when Jesus Christ returns in power and great glory. Billy Graham was playing golf with President-elect Kennedy, and after their golf game, Kennedy was driving them back to their residence. And all of a sudden, Kennedy pulls the car off to the side of the road and looks at Dr. Graham and says, "Do you really think that Christ is going to return a second time?"

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  Graham swallowed hard and said, "Well, the Bible teaches that and all the church creeds teach that, so yes, I do believe that."

• 1:51:16Tucker Carlson?

  This was pre-Vatican II, before they're reading the Bible a lot in Catholic churches?

• 1:51:20Speaker 01

  No, it's true. It was. Good point. Very good point. And gosh, am I ever excited about the number of Catholics that are starting to read the Bible now.

• 1:51:28Tucker Carlson?

  A lot.

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  A ton. I am ecstatic over that development.

• 1:51:32Tucker Carlson?

  So sorry for interrupting, but not to defend Kennedy, but he probably never heard that before. It's like, that's the whole message of the New Testament, but he'd never heard it.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. Well, just think, if you have a worldview that says there is no God, history is a string of accidents. And history's going to end when we all blow ourselves to bits in a nuclear holocaust, or when the sun burns out and we all freeze to death. Entropy. No. Jesus Christ insisted that history is going to end when He returns in power and great glory. That is why I, as a follower of Christ, have hope for the future. Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection of the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies." We, as followers of Christ, affirm life more than anybody, because we know that there's eternal life out there. We, as followers of

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Christ, want to work harder to change our country, to change our world. Because you don't work on roads that lead nowhere. And life is not a road that leads nowhere. Life is a road that leads to eternal life in heaven, when you trust in Christ. So you begin to get involved in politics. You get involved in your corporation. You get involved in your family. Because you know that life is significant, and you know that there's an incredible future out there. Because ultimately, Jesus is going to return a second time. Ultimately, Jesus reigns.

• 1:52:57Tucker Carlson?

  Cliff, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  Tucker, I can't thank you enough for the awesome privilege. Thank you for your honesty and your openness, your hospitality.

• 1:53:06Tucker Carlson?

  My deep theological questions?

• 1:53:08Speaker 01

  Not very deep, but thank you.

• 1:53:14Tucker Carlson?

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