The Truth About the Biggest Act of Domestic Terrorism in American History

The Clinton administration told us the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing was a lone wolf attack by a deranged white supremacist. That’s not true. Kathy Sanders lost two grandchildren that day. She’s spent thirty years gathering the facts. (00:00) The Oklahoma City Bombing (11:10) The Strange Bomb Squad Sightings (28:02) The ATF's Visit to Sanders and the Details That Don't Add Up (31:49) Timothy McVeigh's Accomplices (37:36) Sanders's Conversation With McVeigh's Sister (59:03) Sanders's Conversations With the FBI Paid partnerships with: Redmond Salt: Use code TUCKER for 15% off your first order at https://redmond.com/tucker Brooklyn Bedding: Get 30% off sitewide with promo code TUCKER at https://brooklynbedding.com Ethos: Protect your family with life insurance from Ethos. Get up to $3 million in coverage in as little as 10 minutes at https://ethos.com/TUCKER TCNetwork: Watch ‘The OKCBOMB Files’ only on TCN: https://watchtcn.co/okcbomb Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Ever notice that whenever there's a history-changing act of violence? It was a lone wolf? It was a lone wolf. It was a random crazy guy. We have no idea why he did it. That would be the guy who killed JFK, and RFK, and MLK, and the Butler shooting. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. Almost all shootings in real life are between people who know each other or trying to steal something from one another. But all the political killings are just some random crazy person. It's weird, isn't it? What are the chances? But when you question the official story, the people in charge don't even respond. They react like people have got something to hide. They just attack you. That's what liars do. Journalists doing their job, which is seeking real answers,

• 1:18Speaker 01

  are a massive threat to their power. So noticing is the crime. And that's certainly the case with the subject of our new series, "The OKC Bomb Files." This is the story of what actually happened, to the extent we know, at the 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City that killed 168 people. Now, you'll recall that the feds told us the bomber was a guy called Tim McVeigh, and he was a veteran white supremacist lone wolf. But over the past 31 years, a lot of evidence has accumulated to suggest, well, really to show, that's a full-blown lie. There were many more people involved in that crime. We're talking to a person today who lost her two young grandsons in that bombing,

• 2:03Speaker 01

  and she has spent the last 30 years investigating the attack herself. She's smart, she's methodical, she's not crazy, and she has a lot to say. She's here today to tell us why she believes that the FBI's story about Tim McVeigh acting alone is a lie, and who else may have been involved, and how the government knows more than it has admitted. Here's Kathy Sanders. Kathy, thank you so much for doing this.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Well, it's my pleasure. Thank you.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  I think most Americans under, let's say, 40, have only a dim understanding, if any knowledge at all, about what happened in Oklahoma City. Can you tell the outline of the story for us?

• 2:47Speaker 02

  I'll be happy to. People don't know about Oklahoma City because it's not even in the history books, not even in Oklahoma. What happened to me was, on April 19th, 1995, I woke up one morning, and I went to the bedroom next to mine because my grandchildren lived in my home. My daughter was a young divorced mother, and Chase and Colton lived in our home, and everything in our life evolved around these little boys. And I went in to wake them up, and they weren't in there. And I thought, how strange. So I walked down the hall to the end of the hallway, and sometime during the night, Tucker,

• 3:32Speaker 02

  those two little boys, two and three years old, had toddled down the hall and gotten in bed with their mother, where they spent their last night of their lives. I turned on the light in the bedroom like I did every morning at our house. We always started with a song. It's like, "Good morning to you, good morning to you. We're all in our places with sunshiny faces." What a nice way to start a new Wednesday. And the little boys begin to giggle, and we get them ready for school, for daycare. In our home, it was a group effort. Edie's working on the boys. I'm working on the boys, brushing their teeth. And we get them all dressed and take them into the kitchen, where we feed them breakfast.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  And Edie and I load them in the car because she and I not only lived together, we worked together downtown, and we took the boys and dropped them off at the daycare. I remember the little crumbs on Colton's face when we left them. We went on to our office to go to work. Edie had been sick on Monday and Tuesday before the bombing on Wednesday, and she had kept the boys at home with her. She was going to stay home on Wednesday as well. But on Tuesday night, she got a call from a coworker that said, "Edie, you've got to come to work tomorrow because we're having the office birthday parties for the people whose birthdays were in April,

• 5:01Speaker 02

  and it was Edie and another girl's." And so Edie agreed she would come in, but she might go home afterwards if she still felt bad. So she went into the office. I'm two floors above her, and she's walking across the floor to blow out the candles on her birthday cake when the bomb goes off. It's this huge explosion, unlike anything I'd ever heard before. I knew something had happened, and it was bad. So she and I, I ran the two floors down to her office, and I opened the door, and everybody's looking out the windows. They're trying to figure out what happened.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Someone is on the phone, and they hang up the phone, and they said, "They just blew up the bank." And I said, "Edie, let's go see." So we run down three flights of stairs and out the front door of our office, which was three blocks from the Murrah. And there wasn't a car one moving in the street. It was like we'd entered the Twilight Zone. We look up the street. The bank's intact. Edie, there's big sheets of plate glass falling down around us. I had no idea what had happened. And Edie turned to go back into the building, where it was safe. And I'm walking behind her, and then I look up the street,

• 6:29Speaker 02

  and I see the smoke rising from the Murrah building. And I said, "Edie, the babies." So we take off running, and we get to the south side of the street. And she had tennis shoes on because she was planning on going home, and the parking lot was a long way from our building. I didn't. I couldn't keep up with her. I said, "Edie, wait, wait, wait up." We stop at the south side of the building, and we're surveying the damage. And the windows were all blown out of the windows. And there were blinds just dangling in the air like ruptured blood vessels. It was just a mess. I'd never seen anything like it. And then we hear boom, boom, boom,

• 7:14Speaker 02

  and we see this black billowing smoke. And I didn't know what that was. But we turned, and we ran to the north side of the building. And when we did, it was the cars in the parking lot blowing up. And I turned back to look behind me, and we saw the daycare. The Murrah building was nothing left but just a pancake pile of rubble. And my daughter falls to her knees, and she begins to cry. "My babies, my babies." And Tucker, that was the first time in my daughter's life

• 7:59Speaker 02

  she had a problem that her mother wasn't going to be able to fix. We're running through the rubble trying to find the babies. And a second bomb threat came. And people were running all away from the building. They were stampeding, trying to get away. "Another bomb, another bomb." Well, we're trying to get in. And a law enforcement official grabbed us and said, "You can't go in." He physically made us leave the area. We were told to go to the children's hospital, that that's where they were going to take the children when they were removed from the building.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  So at the hospital, I lost all track of time. But my son was an off-duty police officer, and he had seen his mother and sister on TV. And he came downtown. He said, "Momma, don't worry. I'm going to find the boys." And he left. And he came back.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  And I knew when he walked through the door, something was wrong. And I jumped up and I said, Danny, Danny, what is it? What is it, son? Goes, Mama, did Colton have on little green shorts and a white shirt? And I said, yes, son. Yeah, that's Colton. And I see the tears on his face and I said, son, is the baby gone? Is the baby gone? And he puts his big old arms around me and goes, yeah, Mama, I'm sorry. Colton's gone. And he held me for a few minutes and then he sat me in a chair and he goes, Mama, where's Edie? Well, by this time, I couldn't stand watching her grieve the loss of the children. I was grieving the loss of the children. I was grieving for her.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  It was just horrible. And I said, son, she's around the corner in the chaplain's office. And in a few minutes, I heard a blood curdling scream and I knew my son had found my daughter. And later that day, he found my oldest son, grandson, had also been toe-tagged. Nothing like this had ever happened in my life. I mean, this was so foreign to me. I remember Tucker telling a interviewer when asked about this, probably just in the weeks after the bombing. I told him, you know, it won't be very long.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  When I tell someone I lost my grandchildren in the bombing, they'll say, which one? And haven't we come a long way? We've had so many bombings, so many school shootings, the whole world has changed. And I wouldn't believe this story about the bombing if it hadn't happened to me. I would have been one of those people. I live in La La Land. I like to be happy. I would have never believed anything like this could have happened. A few weeks after the bombing, we had a dinner at our home. I reached out to the 19 families that lost their kids.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  We're sitting in the den. We're talking about our children. People were saying, well, my little girl lost her arm. And I remember one mother saying, the only thing I ever seen about my baby again was his toes. I got to touch, kiss his little toes. And another grandmother, her baby was, grandson was beheaded. And then one mother speaks up and she said, well, when I dropped my son off there, I saw the bomb squad downtown. We didn't believe her. The next day-

• 11:52Speaker 01

  When she dropped her son off that morning, of course, before the bombing, she saw a bomb squad?

• 11:56Speaker 02

  She saw the bomb squad downtown, there at the Murrah Building, when she was taking her son in.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Before the bombing?

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Before the bomb went off.

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• 15:04Speaker 01

  Enjoy it. So just to be clear for people who aren't familiar with the official version of the story. The government announced very quickly that, of course, they knew nothing about this. And it was an act of terror committed by two white supremacist veterans, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. And that was it.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Just two crazy people did this crime. That was the version.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  That was the story that was given to us.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  And, you know, that's the one I thought I should believe.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Of course, everyone did.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  But it's like, were they down there? And it made my husband so mad. The next day, he went down to the fire station. The chief said, no, we didn't have our bomb squad down, down there. We didn't, there wasn't any prior knowledge. Because some other people had said they'd seen the bomb squad truck with the bomb disposal unit on the back. And so we left not knowing what to think. And then the next day, we saw an article in a paper where a woman gave an interview and said the people in her office had been watching the bomb squad truck in the alleyway. And there were reports of bomb-sniffing dogs through the bushes in the alleyway.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  I never directly talked to that person. But as my husband was leaving the fire station, the, the fire dispatcher there said, I'm not going to lie for anyone. He goes, we got a memorandum in this office last week to be on high alert for terrorist activity. And after that, we found out that the federal courthouse had also gotten that same high alert. No one had ever mentioned that to us. We didn't know it was a bad day to go to the Murrah Building and drop your kids off.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  But the dispatcher at the fire station told your husband that?

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  I'm not going to, I'm not going to cover this up. I'm not going to lie.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what he said. He said, you know, we got an alert to be on, to be on alert for terrorist activity in downtown Oklahoma City. And the federal courthouse also got that same alert.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  I mean, that raises all kinds of questions, which I hope we get to in this conversation and in the documentary series. But I mean, if they had an alert that this was coming, that raises the question, how would they know? If it was just two random white supremacists who did this and there was not a larger conspiracy, then how, how would the government have had warning of this?

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Well, I know how they had their warning. As I began to investigate, this was just a first baby step. This story is so big and it goes so far. And stop me if I'm telling too much, but I know how they found out. I learned about an ATF informant who was living at Eliot City. I have her documents of her reports she turned into her handler. She warned her handler that beginning in December of 1994,

• 18:31Speaker 02

  the informant, along with two other individuals, had taken trips to Oklahoma City and Tulsa to target buildings they planned to blow up. They took three trips. The handler was brand new to the job. And her reports almost were just written just exactly as the informant turned them in. So someone, somewhere had some information there. And Eliot City is a big part of it, Tucker, because not only was that informant warning the ATF

• 19:14Speaker 02

  of a possible bombing, Timothy McVeigh called there two minutes after calling the rider truck rental company. I believe it was two weeks before the bombing. Now, he asked to speak to a fella by the name of Andres Strasmeyer.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  And if I was an FBI agent, I would be interested in knowing what's going on at Elihim City and who this Strausmeyer is. The FBI never talked to Strausmeyer. They never interviewed him, but they interviewed McVeigh's, I don't know, she was just like his 4th grade school teacher. They interviewed 10s of thousands of people in connection with McVeigh, but they didn't think it was important to talk to Strausmeyer. Also-

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Who was Strausmeyer?

• 20:12Speaker 02

  He was living at Elihim City and he was taking these trips to Oklahoma and to Tulsa, planning a bombing. He was planning, they were planning on bombing something.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  And the FBI never interviewed him? Now, he was a German national-

• 20:31Speaker 02

  He was a German nationals. They, a year after the bombing, after he was allowed to leave and return to Germany, they called and did a telephone interview.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  So, I mean, the only, I don't know this, of course, I can't, but the only, logically, the only reason I can think of that they wouldn't interview him would be that they, he was working for them?

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Well, that would seem logical to me. I don't, maybe it was a case of the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. I know that the ATF informant Carol Howe was indeed an informant, and I know what Strausmeyer at Elihim City, according to the people there that I visited with, was trying to incite them to do bad things. Why? And why did he leave the country? And why wasn't he ever interviewed? I mean, McVeigh calls him 2 minutes after calling the Ryder Truck Company? There has to be some kind of connection, but he just disappeared.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Is he still alive?

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Has he ever been interviewed by the FBI that you know of, in person?

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Not, not to my knowledge, no. And, and there's more about Elihim City if you want to hear it.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Well, let's just go back to your story.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  And I do want to hear it.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  But first, I want to understand how it dawned on you in the middle of your grief, having just lost your 2 grandsons, that there was more going on here. So, you learn that a bomb disposal squad has been seen at the site of the bombing, before the bombing. Your husband asks the fire chief, he denies it, but the dispatcher basically confirms it.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  What happens next?

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Well, next, we've got the largest manhunt in American history going on for John Doe #2.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  And who is John Doe #2? The accomplice?

• 22:31Speaker 02

  He's Timothy McVeigh's accomplice, that the FBI was looking for him. They, first, they were looking for John Doe 1 and John Doe 2. They found John Doe 1 from the VIN number off of the vehicle. So, they traced him back to Junction City.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  The Ryder truck that exploded, that had the bomb in it, the ammonium nitrate fuel oil bomb, exploded, of course, but the axle from the truck had the VIN number-

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Had the VIN number on it, and then the registration and the information they got from the Ryder Truck Company, they located Timothy McVeigh. But according to the people where they rented the truck, there were 2 men, and so there was a John Doe 2. And so, there was this largest manhunt in American history for John Doe 2, $2 million reward, and in just a couple of weeks, the FBI said, you know what? It was all a mistake. There is no John Doe #2. And that Eldon at the Body Shop was mistaken.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I, maybe I could have dropped it at that, but we started investigating early on, when I thought something was wrong, and I finally went down to, I talked to Stephen Jones, McVeigh's defense attorney, and I said, "Look, if you want to point the finger at the other people that were involved, I'll help you." And so, I worked with his investigators, McVeigh's investigators, so I was privy to documents. That's how I found out about Carol Howe, the informant.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  ATF informant.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  ATF informant. That's why I had access to her documents. That's how I knew that there were way over 20 people that had seen Timothy McVeigh downtown that morning in the presence of this John Doe 2. I had their 302 witness statements. I went and talked to them. There was Rodney Johnson, the catering guy, delivering, delivery guy. He sees McVeigh with a guy walking across the street. There's Jeff Davis, the, the, the delivery boy that delivered Chinese food to McVeigh's

• 25:14Speaker 02

  room in Junction City. It wasn't McVeigh that he gave the food to, and there was another man in the room. There were Dana Bradley. She was on the first floor of the Murrah Building when the bomb, with her mother, her sister, and her 2 children. When the bomb went off, it killed her mother and her 2 children. She fell down to the basement. You'll remember, she was pinned in the rubble and they had to cut her leg off to get her out of the rubble. She tells the FBI, and I watched her testify at the courtroom, that she and her sister

• 25:58Speaker 02

  were people watching. They were just standing there in front of the windows of the Social Security, waiting for their number to be called, and they're just watching people go by, and they're kind of making fun of someone, I don't remember what it was, but they were just people watching and killing time. And they see the truck drive up, they see McVeigh get out, and they see someone get out of the passenger side and take off running. And at the trial, the FBI said, "Well, she doesn't know what she's talking about because she's been traumatized."

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• 27:43Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Because us.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  There's just dozens of people that, that saw McVeigh downtown with other people. And what's really mystifying, if you were prosecuting Timothy McVeigh, wouldn't you call a witness that could place him at the crime scene? You would. The prosecution didn't, because every witness they had that saw McVeigh downtown that morning at the crime scene saw him with another guy. Mike Moro's at Johnny's Tires. McVeigh drives up there. Mike comes out to his car to greet him, and McVeigh jumps out of the truck like he's keeping

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Mike away from the truck, and he's asking for directions to the corner of 5th and Harvey. And then he jumps back in his truck and he sits there a few more minutes. Mike watches him as he and the other guy drive off. Danny Wilkinson, it worked at the Regency Tower, just 1 block and across the street from the Murrah Building. The truck pulls up, McVeigh comes inside, according to Danny Wilkinson. He buys 2 Cokes and a package of Marlboro Reds. McVeigh didn't smoke, so he obviously had someone with him.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  The, the list just goes on and on, but John Doe 2 was totally dismissed. He never happened.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  And when we were talking about the bomb squad being downtown,

• 29:56Speaker 02

  I have, I had access to the payroll records from the ATF. There were ATF agents brought in the night before the bombing. They will admit that they were working on a sting operation, but they won't admit that it was at the Murrah Building. My theory is, perhaps, and this is just a theory based on the evidence I've gathered, but perhaps they knew the building was going to be blown up. And the information they had was the building would be blown up in the wee hours of the night. When no one came to blow up the building, they called the bomb squad to give a clean sweep.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  And then they let everybody enter. I mean, I don't know, I can't explain a lot of things. I don't know everything, but I think I know a lot more than some people inside the government wish I knew.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Well, that's obvious from the way they responded to you. So you got a visit from the ATF to your home, correct?

• 31:01Speaker 02

  We did. After, on May the 23rd, 1995, they imploded the Murrah Bill, the Murrah Building. And there was a lot of dissension about that. There were some that didn't want it imploded and some that said it needed to be. But by this time, see, that's been a month after the bombing and we're really hitting hard and heavy now because we're thinking things are not right. We're making accusations and bringing things to light about the John Doe 2 and this stuff going on. And we're really getting kind of scared. So we're thinking, when we go down there and we see that building, we're going to let reporters know that we think there's a problem.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  So I remember a CNN reporter came over to my daughter and said, Edie, what do you think about the bomb or the building being imploded? And she goes, I want to know where the hell was the ATF? Why weren't they in that building? And she just went off on them. And so the next day, Pat Ryan, the head of ATF, a couple of ATF agents, and including the one Luke Franny, they came because they wanted to calm us down that everything was okay. And they told us the ATF wasn't there because they were at a golf tournament that was happening that morning.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  Luke Franny, his hands bandaged up and

• 32:35Speaker 02

  he tells us his harrowing story about how he had to karate chop his way out of the building because he was stranded on the ninth floor. And that's how he hurt his hand. Later, I found sheriff's video of Luke shaking hands with the sheriff. So I don't know how bad his hand was hurt. I don't know. It just kept your mind wondering, but the, the thing that caused me the greatest concern about Luke Franny was the AP reporter had a picture of him on the ninth floor. He's holding a little silver lockbox. And 168 dead people behind him or underneath him.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  He's standing there with this silver lockbox, shaking it, and there's 168 dead people below him and all these hundreds of walking wounded. And I'm thinking, man, whatever's in that box has got to be really important. Went to Franny. And we asked, what'd you have in that box? Oh, I'm sorry, I can't talk about it. Can't tell you. Well, then Hal Francis, a former FBI agent that was working on a story

• 33:51Speaker 02

  that is an acquaintance of mine, I told him about this. He took Luke Franny out for lunch. And he asked about that lockbox. And Luke Franny told him, oh, it was $150 worth of my kids' savings bonds.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Why couldn't he tell me that? And would you really be, 168 dead people below you and all that walking wounded? And you're trying to save the lockbox with your children's savings bonds? That just didn't add up. See, I'm a simple person. Two plus two equals four. The facts of this case do not lead up to there was one bomber that came into Oklahoma City and blew the building up. Terry Nichols was in Harrington, Kansas, the morning of the bombing. You know, there, Gary.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Terry Nichols, Nichols is the convicted accomplice of Timothy McVeigh, who was executed. Terry Nichols remains in prison.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  That's right. And there was a third one, Michael Fortier. But Fortier

• 35:03Speaker 02

  cut a plea deal with the government. And he was every bit as good as, guilty as Terry Nichols. But he only had to spend 10 years in prison. And he was caught lying under oath three different occasions. And he got a plea deal for his wife. She never spent a night in prison and she testified at McVeigh's trial, how she sat at the kitchen table and watched McVeigh show her with Campbell's soup cans, how he was going to put the barrels in the back of the truck to blow up the building. So Fortier spent 10 years in prison and when he got out, he is now in the witness protection program.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  Who are they protecting him from?

• 35:49Speaker 02

  Things, things just don't add up.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  So Fortier has never given an interview that you're aware of?

• 35:53Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Have you ever spoken to him?

• 35:56Speaker 02

  No, I took his wife out for dinner though. I went to Kingman, Arizona, and we went to the damn bar. And I said, you know, I'd like for you to tell me about your part in the bombing. You know, I know about you sitting with McVeigh and doing the barrels and and she begins to cry and said, I'm sorry, I can't tell you. My lawyer just told me I can't talk about it. And I said, well, okay, if you can't tell me how the bombing affected you, let me tell you how it affected me. And I pulled out pictures of Chase and Colton. And, and I told her how different our lives were and the tragedy that we've been through. And I said, you know, I really wish you would help me.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  And at the end of the night though, she said, you know, would you write to Michael? He was in prison at that time. I said, well, I don't, what do you want me to say? And she goes, I don't know, but I think you'll know. I said, okay, I'll write to him. So I wrote to Michael Fortier, told him I'd had dinner with his wife. I found, found her to be a, a, a very nice person, a very broken person. And he wrote back that I felt like he was deceiving me. At least Lori told me she couldn't talk. He said, I'm glad you saw her for the person she really is and

• 37:24Speaker 02

  I've got his letter at home. It's been 30 years. I can't remember what it was, but it was, it was like that he didn't have anything to do with it or he didn't know about it. And it's like, that's so untrue based on the evidence that's been recovered.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  And you have no idea where he is now?

• 37:42Speaker 02

  No, he's in the witness protection program. He's probably got a new name and everything. I suppose we're probably supporting him, right?

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Oh, of course we are.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 37:50Speaker 01

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• 38:35Speaker 01

  Ethos is E-T-H-O-S dot com slash Tucker. Application times obviously vary as do rates, but we think it's pretty good. So the ATF comes to your house to quote calm you down. Did it have that effect? Did it calm you down?

• 38:52Speaker 02

  No, no. We had, two of the agents that were in the building, they told us that when the bomb went off, they were in an elevator and that they free fell from the top of the ninth floor to the first floor. And they were, they were trapped in the elevator and they had to pry the doors open. Well, it just so happened, my husband

• 39:17Speaker 02

  was CPA and he worked for that elevator company. We went and interviewed the men at the elevator company. They said, as soon as the bomb went off, they were called to come down there and to help get people out and to check on the elevators. And they said, there was no elevator that had been pried open. And he's, they said, Kathy, if the elevator had free fallen from the ninth floor to the first floor, they would have been dead.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  So I don't know.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  I don't have the answers for this. All I know is that doesn't seem to make sense to me.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  So if you were interviewing Michael Fortier's wife and the elevator company that installed the elevators at the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, I mean, you were doing reporting on this.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  Oh, Tucker, you have no idea. I've spent the last 32 years. I've had, I've had, I've had some of the bomber's family come to my home.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  McVeigh?

• 40:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  His family?

• 40:28Speaker 02

  His sister came, I had her to my home for dinner when I knew she was in Oklahoma. She, most people don't realize that she also cut a deal with the government. She testified against her brother. In her confession, she says that she was laundering $100 bills for her brother that he told her came from bank robberies. Well, there's a group of bank robbers living at Elihim City, the place that the ATF informant warns her handler, these people are planning a bombing. They're living at Elihim City and they're, they're

• 41:13Speaker 02

  bank robbers. And she's laundering money that Tim says came from bank robbers. Anyway, and when the FBI came to Jennifer's home, the first time, she was on her back patio with her charcoal grill, burning the letters from her brother. But, yeah, and Jennifer, I had her at my home, and I asked her, you know, can you tell me about your brother's politics? And she said, oh, no, I'm sorry. He never discussed that with me. Well, I knew that wasn't true. And my daughter just lived two blocks from me by this time, and

• 41:54Speaker 02

  she had a new baby. And I thought, well, I'll take Jennifer over to meet the baby her brother didn't kill. It's what I thought in my heart. But I took her over to Edie's. But I didn't get anything significant from her. But I've been to Elihim City. I've had guns pointed at me. Edie and I did, when we drove up to Elihim City, the armed guards came out with guns. I've been to the-

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Whose armed guards were they?

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Elihim City's.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  I, I told Edie, after I learned what I did, I said, Edie, we need to go to Elihim City. I want to know what's going on out there. I had been told that if you go there, you have to, if you want to talk to them, you have to attend their church service. They had church service every day at noon. So, we're driving up, it's just about time for church. I mean, it is in the boonies. I've never seen anything like it.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Where is it?

• 42:57Speaker 02

  It's at the Moldrow, Oklahoma, Arkansas border. And you have to know, and I had learned from the defense team where it was, and you have to know where you're going to get there because it is in the middle of nowhere. And then we're, we're driving up there and there's a sign that says Elihim City, which by the way is Hebrew for City of God. There's these big domed buildings unlike anything I had ever seen before. And I grabbed the camcorder, which at that time was as big as a bazooka, and I put it on my shoulder and I start filming

• 43:41Speaker 02

  because I'm thinking, no one's ever going to believe I've been here. And then Edie says, put the camera down, Mom, put the camera down. And I throw the camera into the floor, and there are two men coming with guns to our car pointed right at us. I rolled the window down, and they said, can we help you? And I said, yeah, I'm here for church. So, our armed escorts took us into the church. And when we got inside the church building, which is another one of the round domed buildings with stuff oozing from the top, it was set up like a horseshoe type. The parishioners were around the perimeter of the building,

• 44:24Speaker 02

  and the Iron Cross Band was playing. And these guys had guns on their shoulders and sidearms on their waist, and the Iron Cross Band was playing, and they were singing some kind of glory and guns to God. And then, when they quit playing, Reverend, no, Reverend Millar looks at us, and he says, well, I see we have guests. And he said, would you stand and introduce yourselves? So we stood up, and I said, well, this is my daughter, Edie. We lost her grand, her children in the Oklahoma City bombing. And I said, we're

• 45:06Speaker 02

  ATF's worst nightmare. And they stood up and gave us a standing ovation. And so we were welcomed into the fold. Afterwards, they gave me a tour of the compound. They showed me Andres Strassmeyer's house, Dennis Mahon, which is the man that also accompanied Carol Howe and Andres Strassmeyer. It was the three of them that made those three trips. So, I found out where Carol was staying. I really wanted to see where Richard Wayne Snell was buried, but they wouldn't show me that.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Who was Richard Wayne Snell?

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Richard Wayne Snell was a part of the Covenant, the Sword, and Arm of the Lord. And 10 years earlier, the FBI had raided their compound on the same day as Oklahoma City bombing, on April 19. And Snell got in a lot of trouble. He killed an Arkansas pawnbroker, shot an Arkansas state trooper, and some of it was out of revenge for what had happened at his compound on April 19, 1985. Snell then was executed in Arkansas.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  And Arkansas officials chose to execute him on April 19, 1995, the day of the Oklahoma City bombing. But here's what gets peculiar. On the day of his execution, according to the prison death watch logs, Snell asked for the TV to be turned on in his cell, and he smiled and chuckled as he watched the Oklahoma City bombing. His spiritual advisor was Robert Millar, the head of Oklahoma City.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Of Elihim City?

• 47:08Speaker 02

  His spiritual advisor was Robert Millar, the head spiritual advisor of Elihim City. And he was taken back and buried at Elihim City. I mean, all the roads keep going back to Elihim City, Elihim City. And coincidentally, at Snell's sedition trial, it came out at trial that he had planned to blow up the Murrah Building some 10 years earlier, out of revenge for the raid on the Covenant, the Sword, and Arm of the Lord. I mean, this

• 47:49Speaker 02

  story just is so big. It's so big. But all roads come back to the same direction.

• 47:55Speaker 05

  If you're under 40, you might not know much about what the FBI describes as the deadliest act of domestic terror in our history, bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995. We felt this. All the official stories are simple and not all the same. Timothy McVeigh, acting alone, bombed a federal building, and in so doing, killed 168 people, including almost 20 children. What an emotional experience. The government quickly declared the case solved, but three decades later, many questions remain. Did Timothy McVeigh really act alone? There is a strong likelihood that other persons are involved. Why were so many obvious warnings ignored? It's pure chaos. And who was he with? A man called John Doe Number Two. Who was John Doe Two, and where was he?

• 48:40Speaker 05

  We spoke with survivors, investigators, law enforcement, even Timothy McVeigh's defense attorney. The story that he was telling me, I did not feel was the truth. Watch the OKC Bomb Files, streaming exclusively on TuckerCarlson.com.

• 48:55Speaker 00

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• 49:24Speaker 01

  What do you think Timothy McVeigh's role in all of this was? Do you believe he was the bomber?

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Yes, I believe he was the bomber. I think he was happy to be the bomber. I think he was happy to have the credit for it. He, he was the one person that I reached to a number, out to a number of times, and he would never respond. One time, I knew a law, a journalist that was going in to see him, and I sent a picture of Chase and Colton on there to him, and I said, I'd really like to talk with you. And, and he, the reporter said, he just shook his head and said, well, I don't know what to think of this.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  You think he was happy to take credit for it? You don't believe he acted alone?

• 50:12Speaker 02

  No, there, there is no way he acted alone. At Gary Lake, where they built the bomb, the prosecution and the defense agreed that the bomb was built at Gary Lake.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Well, there were several eyewitnesses at Gary Lake that watched men coming and going from the truck. The activity went on all day. Sergeant Sergeant had just retired, his first day of retirement, and he went to the lake to go fishing to celebrate. He watched those men there all day. You know, there were people with him. There were people in the Dreamland motel room. The Chinese delivery person, Jeff Davis, that's not who he left. He didn't leave the Chinese food with Tim McVeigh. It was some other people.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  The maid, Hilda Sostra, she took towels to the room, and the man that answered the door wasn't McVeigh, and she was complaining to Leah McGowan, the owner of the hotel, about that there were other men in that room. David King, he was a guest at the hotel. He saw the men coming and going from McVeigh's room. Leah McGowan that rented in the truck, she would walk the perimeter, and she heard men talking in there. It's like, who were these men?

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Because McVeigh drove the Ryder truck with the bomb in it from the front doors of the Dreamland to the front door of the Murrah Building. Whoever was there with him were important, and the FBI never bothered to find them.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  I wonder why.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  Well, I wonder why, too.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  I mean, the most obvious explanation is that the people with McVeigh were FBI informants, and the FBI knew all of this was happening, and that they were monitoring it, but for whatever reason, didn't stop it. And they're hiding that fact. That's, I mean, I think that's the conclusion most people would draw.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  It's very logical. I've taken all the information that I have gathered over the last 32 years. I've written three books about the bombing. I mean, my life, the bombing really changed my life. The first one was when I started asking questions. The second one's when I learned to forgive, which is the greatest story. And this third one that I just wrote, Shadows of Conspiracy, I call it a historical novel because I've created the story based on the facts that I have, but I've had to include the dialogue that I believe the men would have been having to create this thing. And it is a page-turner, barn burner kind of book.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  It's a really good read. If you want to know, my story in that book is much closer to the truth than what the American people have been given.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  So what, if you could just summarize what you think likely happened, what is the truth of Oklahoma City after 32 years of looking into it, do you think?

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Well, I don't have the whole truth.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  I have the, you know, I think they knew. Carol Howe had warned them.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  The government knew.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  The government knew. I think they tried to stop it. I think they were there the night before, and I think that's why they called the bomb squad in. And, you know, if they were trying to stop it and just flubbed it up, I could appreciate that, you know, say, you know, we worked hard, we tried to stop it, we're really sorry, but we tried. It's been hanging like this, I don't know what to think. There is, to me, there's something not right, there's something sinister about it.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Clearly. What kind of contact have you had with the FBI since that day, since April of 95?

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Well, oh, I've talked to, I've talked to different ones. I've had Danny Colson. I write about him in my book. He was the agent that was brought in after the bombing, and they brought in the team of the FBI's elite to cover the story of the bombing, or to investigate the bombing, I should say. And I found out 10 years after the bombing that Danny had retired, and I thought, well, maybe he'll tell me, now that he's retired, he'll tell me about what, you know, what

• 55:17Speaker 02

  really happened. I called him on the phone, and he lives in Dallas. He agreed to meet me. I took all, I have three-ring binders. I had a trunk full. I loaded my car with those three-ring binders. I went to Motel 6. I put the, all those binders out on that bed, and then a tap came at the door, and I knew it was Danny because we had a specific time. I answered the door, and at that time, he looks like Simon Cowell. He's got on that black tight T-shirt and blue jeans and had hair.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  He doesn't anymore, but he comes in, and I said, I just have some questions, you know? And I start pulling out binders. Why didn't you talk to Carol Howe? You know, why didn't anybody pay attention to the information that she's giving him? And he's looking at, then I'm pulling out Jennifer McVeigh's confession that she was laundering the $100 bills for her brother. I said, look at this, the Midwest Bank robbers, that's the name the FBI gave them. They're living there at Eliot City. Why didn't, why didn't they do anything? And Andres Strossmeyer, McVeigh calls him two minutes after calling the Ryder Truck

• 56:40Speaker 02

  Company. Why didn't you, why wasn't he ever interviewed? And I could, Danny's countenance was changing. And he said, man, he goes, that explains it. I said, explains what? And he said, Kathy, after the bombing, the FBI brought in their finest to investigate. And he said, I was called off and put on leave with pay. I've, I've been on leave with pay the last 10 years. I don't know anything about these things.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  He said, you probably have more information in one place than any other organization because I've have information from everybody. And he said, he was very, very nice. He said, you need to get a federal grand jury is the only way you're ever going to get this solved. Well, before I could get to Nichols to tell him to do that, he doesn't trust anyone.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  Terry Nichols.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  Terry Nichols. They came, and I approached him about a grand jury, and he wouldn't agree to it. But Danny, I'll never forget that day because at the end of our meeting that day, he said, aren't you afraid? I said, I don't know, who should I be afraid of? And he said, well, the people that you could get convicted and possibly put to death. I said, no, I don't have that much sense. I'm just doing what I believe is the right thing to do. Edmund Burke said, evil flourishes when good men do nothing. Something needs to be done.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Will something be done?

• 58:29Speaker 02

  I don't know, I've been trying for 32 years. I, I hope we come to the truth.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  You said that you forgave Timothy McVeigh?

• 58:42Speaker 02

  I did.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  How and why?

• 58:45Speaker 02

  Okay, but I never set out planning or to forgive anybody, really, I didn't. But I had such grief, there wasn't anything I could do about that grief, but there was something I could do about the anger. And I watched my husband die, and I believe his, his anger and his, and the bitterness and hatred that he harbored in his heart killed him.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Oof.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  And I said...

• 59:26Speaker 01

  How old was he?

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Forty-seven.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  And I remember, he was, he was mad. He was mad at God for not answering our prayer because we came home the day of the bombing, and one of the parents of the child that lived just by his side in the hospital, and he says, well, looky here, God answered our prayer, our boy lived, which I would have said too, if our boys would have lived, but I've learned, don't do that. You can thank God that your boy lived, but God's not a cherry picker. He didn't go through that day and think, oh, let this one and this one and this one perish, and I'm going to save these others. I mean, because it made us feel really bad. Glenn was really mad at God.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  He was mad at Timothy McVeigh. I heard him say a dozen times, the day that he dies, he's going to spit on his grave and toast his death with a bottle of fine champagne. Well, Glenn wound up dying before McVeigh, but he was really mad at the government because he didn't believe he had been given the truth. And watching him die scared me. I said, God, I don't know why this happened, but I know if, if I have a chance of making it, I'm going to have to depend on you. I can remember after the bombing, John Walsh of America's Most Wanted, he spoke to a group of survivors, and he looked at us, and he said, you will grieve, and you will grieve

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  deeply, but you will survive. Up to that point, I didn't know if I would survive. I'd even thought about killing myself because I didn't want to live in that kind of pain.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  But I couldn't do that to my husband and to my daughter. So I said, Lord, you're going to have to help me. I can't live like this, you're going to have to help me.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  I've since learned that forgiveness isn't an event, it's a process. I can remember when I read my Bible, I read the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." And when I got to that part, I said, "Lord, I don't know how to do that." I said, "Lord, you're gonna have to send your Holy Spirit to intercede for me. I don't know how to do this." And Tucker, when I began to pray for Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, it began to change my life. I don't know what it did for Terry or Tim.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  I went to Terry Nichols' trial right after my husband died. And there was a break in the hallway, there was a little lady there with a brown coat on, long brown coat. She was over there by herself, nobody was talking to her, but I could see they were talking about her. And I thought, "Oh, my God, that's Terry Nichols' mother." And I go over and I begin to introduce myself, and she begins to cry. And I put my arms around her and I said, "I'm so sorry for your family." And we became great friends.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  During the court, I sit with my friend Joyce. I sit with Joyce, we ate lunch together. I know the other families didn't understand why I was sitting with the Nichols family. But she did become, I felt like she was a forgotten victim, and she did become my friend. When the trial was over, the jury forewoman said, "We can't give Terry Nichols' death because we don't know how, he's guilty, but we don't know how guilty. Who were those other people with him at the Dreamland Motel? Who was with him out there building the bomb at Gary Lake?"

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  And so they got off. But Oklahoma had a backup plan. So after his federal trial, he didn't get the death penalty. They brought him to Oklahoma. And Oklahoma planned to have a state trial in hope to get him executed. Well, just a couple of days after I returned home, I went to my mailbox and there's a letter from Terry Nichols. And I'm looking at that and I'm thinking, "Hmm, I'm not looking for a pen pal. And if I was, it wouldn't be the Oklahoma City bomber." And then I thought, "Who's gonna know more about the bombing? That's crazy."

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  So I began to write to Terry. And he said, "If you'll send me your phone number, I'll call you." So he began to call me. I learned a lot from him. He wasn't raised at a Christian home. He said, "They only went to church for weddings or for funerals." And he said, "We went then for a free meal," and he just kinda laughed about it. But he said, "Once he was arrested, in his cell was a Gideon Bible, and he read it cover to cover. And then someone gave him a AM radio, and he listened to an old radio preacher that told him if he'd invite Jesus into his heart, that Jesus would cleanse him of his sins

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  and forgive him for all unrighteousness." And he said, "Kathy, I did that." Now, I know a lot about, you know, there are no atheists in the foxholes, and I know a lot about jailhouse religion. I'm nobody's judge, but I chose to believe him. Some people would say, "Oh, Kathy, he doesn't deserve mercy." And I said, "Well, you're right, he doesn't. If he deserved it, it wouldn't be mercy."

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Fair.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  So Terry's son hadn't seen him, Josh, in four years. He was 12 at the time of the bombing, he was 16 at that time. McVeigh had just been executed, and Josh was very disturbed. His mother called and said, "You know, Josh is having a hard time. I'm gonna bring him to Oklahoma to see his dad." And I said, "Well, come stay with me." And she said, "Well, I'm not sure that Josh would be comfortable." I said, "Well, that's okay, just come by and have dinner. He's not comfortable, I understand." So when they came to the door that night, I answered the door, and what was a short,

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  fat kid's now a tall, good-looking kid, and I look up at him. I mean, what do you say? Me being the wise woman that I am, I said, "Well, I knew you were coming, so I baked a cake." And we began to laugh. We had dinner. Josh and I stayed up till the wee hours of the night. He told me how the kids at school had nicknamed him Bomber, and how he'd randomly get beat up when he walked down the street, and how that he dropped out of school. And I had not told anybody, I didn't tell my family, I didn't tell my neighbors, I told no one because I didn't want it to be a press release or press event that I've got the Bomber's family at my home.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  And they wound up staying for four days. And the last day, Josh asked me, and I didn't take him anywhere. I just cooked for him, kept him at the house. And Terry's lawyer would come over and see him and stuff, and they'd go see Terry, but I didn't go out publicly with him. And on the last day, Josh said, "Kathy, would you take me to the memorial?" And it's like, oh, at that time, everyone knew who I was in Oklahoma City, and I'm thinking, "Oh, no. I hope they don't recognize him." But how could I tell him no after what he'd been through?

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  But I could tell you, Tucker, when I took him to the memorial, and I stood at chairs number 60 and 61 with my arm around the Bomber's son, that God had done a work in my life. And I've just, it amazes me, the transformation. You know, John Walsh was right, I did survive. Here I am, 32 years later, I made the decision to forgive, and I think it changed the ending to my story.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  That's a wonderful story. Thank you.