Rev. Billy Cerveny: Satan’s Attacks, Transgenderism, Seeing the Supernatural &Hearing God’s Voice

“Want to know what God loves the most? Watch what Satan attacks most aggressively.” The Rev. Billy Cerveny on spiritual war. (00:00) The Moment Rev. Cerveny Heard God's Calling (08:20) The Uniqueness of the Relationship Between a Father and Son (22:32) Why the Devil Targets Marriage (55:30) The Truth About Transgenderism (1:01:16) What Did the Garden of Eden Look Like? (1:11:38) How the Devil Sows Confusion and How Christians Should React to It (1:25:36) We're Being Lied to by Our Leaders The Rev. Billy Cerveny is an Episcopal priest, writer, and musician based in Jacksonville, Florida. A graduate of Trinity College and Covenant Theological Seminary, he serves at St. Mark’s Episcopal Church, where he leads The River, a contemporary worship service that blends the ancient traditions of the Episcopal Church with modern expressions of worship (5 PM, Sundays at http://www.smjax.org). Before entering ministry, Rev. Cerveny worked as a journalist, author, and songwriter, touring internationally and releasing several studio albums. Cerveny is also the founder and Executive Director of Redbird Ministries, a nonprofit whose mission is to reach out to the world and back into the church with the hope and healing of the gospel. Through Redbird, Rev. Cerveny has ministered to professional athletes, journalists, politicians, pastors, and priests. He and his wife of 21 years, Charla, live in Jacksonville, Florida, with their three children (Emmy, Wiley, and Scout) and their Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Lolly. Follow Billy on Instagram (@billy.cerveny) or X (@billycerveny), and listen to his music on Spotify or Apple Music. You can also hear Billy preach at The River every Sunday at 5 PM by tuning in at http://www.smjax.org. To learn more about Redbird Ministries, visit http://www.redbirdministries.com Paid partnerships with: Mars Men: For a limited time, our listeners get 50% off FOR LIFE, free shipping, AND 3 free gifts at Mars Men at MenGoToMars.com American Financing: NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org. APR for rates in the 5s start at 6.327% for well qualified borrowers. Call 800-685-5696 for details about credit costs and terms. Visit http://www. AmericanFinancing.net/Tucker. Curativa Bay: Take your health back into your own hands. Get 15% off at https://CurativaBay.com/TuckerBattalion Metals: Shop fair-priced gold and silver at https://battalionmetals.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:34Speaker 01

  We've been close friends for almost 40 years, 39 years since the mid 80s. And I would say you were the, I didn't imagine you as a priest, I would say.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  That makes two of us.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Then, about a month ago, your godfather, one of my children, you performed the wedding ceremony for that child.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  One of the great moments of my life. How did you get here? Like, I don't really know anybody who's had more jobs, vision. I thought you were going to be a philosopher, a country music star.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Well, brother, if you had told me when we met and we first started hanging out that I'd end up doing what I'm doing now, I'd have told you you got hit in the head.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm aware of that.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  But, you know, God has a sense of humor and a profound sense of irony. And, you know, over the years, I'd spent...

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Profound sense of irony.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  It's true, though, it's true. And it's a picture of His grace. You know, I spent a lot of my years as a journalist, as a, and most of my professional life in the music business. But I was living in Atlanta years ago when I just started playing music. You remember those years? And I was living in this sort of converted greenhouse, a 400-square-foot apartment that the floor was still slanted to where they'd water the plants and the water would still run out. And I remember I had just gone into the music business. I'd given up a lot to do it, and I was not in a good place. And really asking a lot of questions like, "God, what is this? Like, who am I? What is this supposed to be?"

• 2:10Speaker 02

  And I remember that room became a monastery in my life. And God sort of grabbed me by the throat, as I like to say, and just kind of peeled back the curtain and just began to reveal things to me that, about who He was and who Jesus was that I'd heard my whole life, but they just never made sense. I mean, I grew up in the church. My father was a priest. I was a...

• 2:35Speaker 01

  He was a bishop.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  He was a bishop. He was a bishop of Florida. And, you know, it's like, you know, it's like walking around your parents' house and you see fine pieces of furniture that you just walked by so many times you don't notice them anymore. And that's kind of what faith became to me as a young person. I, at least the language of faith, and words like grace and forgiveness. And I had just heard it so much. I just couldn't, couldn't understand the implications of them until I went off to college. And, you know, that's where we met. But, and those were the prodigal years, man, you know?

• 3:14Speaker 01

  Fair.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, very fair. The prodigal was a wimp. We really went for it, no. But we...

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Really did.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  And, but God was faithful in all that time. But through the journalism and into, back up to Atlanta, I remember living in that apartment and falling on my knees and just saying, "Lord, either you are who you say you are, or this is the biggest lie perpetrated on humanity. And I'm going to go with the you are who you say you are." And He began to teach me this, the truth of forgiveness and the truth of grace and what it meant to walk in Jesus and that what it meant to be saved and what it meant to have a relationship with Him and to have a soul that was worth far more than trying to satisfy it with success in music

• 4:05Speaker 02

  or, you know, success in whatever field it was. And I remember sitting there thinking to myself, "God, you're this good? Like, are you this good? Are you this good?" And just feeling Him in my heart just nodding silently with me. And I knew in that moment, my life was different. I didn't know what it was going to look like. And then when I moved to Nashville, I played music for a bunch of years after that. But during that time, the Lord just kept taking me deeper and deeper. And I started getting involved, used the music to go into ministry. And I did a lot of work with a ministry called Young Life. And I did a lot of, a lot of summers, we're, you know, talking to kids about the gospel.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  And during that time, I met my wife out in Colorado. And it was obviously a life-changing experience. And she's wonderful. And we began asking a question like, "Hey, what is, what does God have for us? Like, where is He taking us?" And the concept, the idea of seminary, for me, I mean, it's like I said, you knew me. And, you know, that was completely not in the cards.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  No, and the context is even bigger. From an outsider's point of view, like, you are the son of a great man, of a well-known man, a big figure. I was at his funeral this winter. It was packed, packed cathedrals. Like, he was a big, big man. You look exactly like your dad, which is also kind of weird.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  I hear that.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  And now you are dressed exactly like your dad. So it's like, that's kind of a, I don't know, it's weird to be the son of someone like that and you don't think you're going to wind up being that thing, right?

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, he was a great man. And I, but that is part of it, you know, to grow up in that and to watch my dad. You know, he was a bishop, so I'd watch my dad process, wearing a mitre and all that kind of, you know? But he was just my dad.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  You know, so people say, "What was it like growing up under that?" I don't know. I didn't know any different. And, but I do know that, you know, spiritually, as I grew and, you know, my father, you know, like any son, a cobbler's son has no shoes, right?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  You think, you know, I'll figure it out on my own and you leave. And, but as I do what I do now and I look back, I'm humbled by the life he lived and the wisdom he had. I love my dad. And, you know, as you mentioned, he died, you know, a number of months ago. And I have such tremendous respect for what he went through. Now that I'm in ministry, I look back and I'm like, "How did you do it? How did you pull this off? How did you hold a family together? How did you, you know, sit in the chair that you sat in and lead a church in the way that you led a church with all the things pulling on you?" And, you know, when you have an adult perspective, it breeds a lot of humility, right?

• 6:58Speaker 01

  If you retroactively assessed your childhood and said, "Oh, I wish I'd been more grateful."

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Well, you know, the thing about, you know, so my father was an Episcopal bishop and the Episcopal church is very eclectic, right? And so my house was this revolving door of different people. So like, one weekend, we'd have, you know, a monk come stay in our house. And the other week, we'd have some high church, bells and smells Anglican. Another week, we'd have some, you know, charismatics, you know, praying in tongues on our floor. And I remember, you know, sort of getting older and becoming a little self-aware and asking the question like, "What are we, man? Like, what is this?" You know, but it was this beautiful picture as in hindsight of the family of God and just how diverse it was and how many expressions that was. And that was an invaluable experience.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  And my dad, he loved people very well in that way. He led people very well. And I don't, I tell you this, there's very few times in my life, or many times in my life, I should say, that I would be somewhere and I would introduce myself to someone. It was not uncommon. Some come to me, "Your last name's Serbany?" And they'd pull me aside and say, "Your dad, you know, telling me something that he did for me." And I'd be in some random state. Or my mother, who was, you know, partner in ministry with him, who's an exceptional woman.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Exceptional.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  One of the rare people in the world.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  This is true. And, but that really, really impacted me just thinking, one, from my own lens, that we want to live lives that are impactful, not just things that we don't want to just accumulate. We don't want to just, you know, try to attain whatever mental picture of success is. But what does it mean to leave an impact that where you leave a place or you leave a person or you that you say, "Hey, man, these people are impacted with the gospel." And my dad did that, for sure.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  How would you ever wake up and put on your collar and think, "Wow, I've like..." I guess all middle-aged men realize I've become my dad, but, I mean, you literally have.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  There's a lot of times where I will, it's, again, it's surreal. You know, I think being a priest or doing this, I think he probably had the same experiences. You're never, there's never a moment where you're not, at least I hope not, you're struck by the irony of it. Where you, you know what I mean? You put your collar on and, and you, you think to yourself like, "Lord, you really are calling me to do this?" Because I know me, you know? I know, I know the way I am. I know my, you know, the internal realities for me. I know where I've been. But that's, you know, much like my dad. I think that was very much in front of him most of his life, too. He would always say, what he did and where he was was just a, was a poster of God's grace.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  You know, he was a poster child for God's grace. And I never fully understood that until as now that I'm as an adult, as a minister, I'm thinking to myself, "Absolutely, it's a picture of grace."

• 9:55Speaker 01

  It's got to be one of life's greatest blessings to really come to understand your own Father. That's something that most men never get.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  It's true. It's, that's something all men carry.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  The, spend a lifetime wrestling is the relationships with their dads and...

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Who was this man who was the center of my world?

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, who was this reference point? And I think the, you know, we, all of our lives, especially as little kids, you grow up looking at your dads as these superheroes and these guys that wear kind of a red cape. And then there's this moment that you catch up with them. And then you realize them and you, and then you see your parents' humility. And you look at your dad and you see that, "Oh, you're, you know, you're this paradox of greatness and brokenness." And I think the real, where the coin dropped for me was when my dad began to be able to share, like, these were the struggles in my life. This is where it was hard. And this is where God met me.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  And this is where He just owned His humanity in open ways and...

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Directly to you?

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  That's pretty wonderful.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  It is wonderful. And I think that's a really freeing experience for a son.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  It's a rare experience.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Very rare experience.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's good. I think that, you know, as father, you know, as you have children as well.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  And especially when you have a son, uh, you know, looking at your son, it's like staring in a mirror. And then there's moments where they look at you and you realize, oh, they're looking at me, asking me what it means to be a man. And you have those moments, these sort of moments of existential horror where you're like, I'm not sure I know myself. Yes. Right? And so, most of us do our best imitation of what we think manhood looks like. And then we come to this place where, you know, I believe that, you know, to be a true blessing is, is, you know, when our, our job as parents is not to create this picture where our, our children have to draw this perfect representation or duplicate what your version of manhood is. But the best thing that we can show them is, hey,

• 12:01Speaker 02

  this is what I, this is, this is what I, this, this is my version of manhood, and this is where I've screwed it up. And this is where I've erased it. And this is a picture of God's grace. My job as a dad is not to show my son what it means to be a perfect man. It is to be, to show him what it means to be an imperfect man in relationship with a God of grace. And to walk in ways that are, that are, I think, hopefully nobly and honorably, and that reflect the goodness of God. But also to reflect the humility of someone that knows what it means to need a Savior and to say, look, we're not perfect. And let me show you, like, this is where God has stepped in and moved in my life. This

• 12:44Speaker 02

  is where I've blown it. And this is where I've done okay. But at the end of the day, uh, you know, we all fall on the, on the mercy of God. And I think that is a gift that we can, like, like I said with my own son, that's a gift that we can give our own children, you know, and same way my dad gave to me towards the end of his life. So the phrase dad bod is obviously a grave slur. It's a kind of gender racism, but it is kind of real, because staying in shape grows harder as you get older. You work out, you eat, but you just don't get the same results. And that's where Mars Men comes in. Mars Men is a natural supplement crafted to support healthy testosterone levels. Testosterone, the chemical of life, if you're a man, is designed to support

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• 14:11Speaker 02

  go to mars.com. Men, go to mars.com for 50% off and three free gifts when you check out. And after you purchase, feel free to say you heard it here. It's, I, I think it's the heaviest, most complex relationship in any man's life with his own father. Oh. I don't think anything comes close. You know, that we always talk about, or I always talk about how difficult it is for men and women to understand each other because they, they think so differently, and they express themselves so differently. And it's the great joy and frustration of marriage, trying to figure out what the other person is saying. Yeah. But I don't think it compares to the father and son relationship. And that is

• 14:50Speaker 02

  hard and poignant, the communication there. I think it's, you know, as men, we all, we have these sort of core longings that God hardwired into our hearts. You know, one of them is, you know, be part of something that's a story that's bigger than me, or to be in relationship with other men, or to, you know, feel known or seen and loved. But one of them is, I think foundationally is this idea that we were created to receive the blessing of a father. Yep. Period. You read the story of Jacob, like Jacob and Esau, where Jacob steals, steals the blessing of his brother. And the whole picture of his life is him going on this journey, trying to, to, uh, satisfy a heart that has been denied this blessing of his father that would, you know, who showed preference to his older brother. And he

• 15:35Speaker 02

  had stolen the blessing, which, you know, that was meant for his brother, and it ended up poisoning his life. And he goes and he amasses wealth, and he gets wives, and he comes back, and there's that famous scene in the book of Genesis where he, he's sitting in the woods, and the angel of the Lord comes out. And he begins to wrestle the angel of the Lord. And they go and, you know, Jacob pins him, and the angel reaches out and dislocates his hip with just the touch of the thigh. And in that moment, he realizes that I'm not, I'm not wrestling a person here. And, uh, but he's also realized that this is, this is a picture of unrestrained power. And rather than him giving up, he says, I'm not going to let you go until you bless me. I would rather, paraphrase, I would rather

• 16:19Speaker 02

  be torn limb from limb than to go from this moment without the blessing of a father. And he, you know, that's where he changes his name to Israel. But I think it's a picture of our hearts, that like, we have, we, we need that in a way that is foundational. Totally agree. You know? And the problem is, the rub is, and the problem for my children, and yours, and all of our children, is that, you know, I'm an imperfect man. I can't, I can't provide that blessing in the full way. You know, I can't provide the fullness of it. But like I was saying earlier, that's part of the, part of the way we do bless them, is that we, we let, we encounter them as adults. And as they get older, we begin to show them the realities of our humanity, and we point them towards Jesus. And we do that together. And that becomes a profound gift to our kids, as they encounter the blessing

• 17:04Speaker 02

  of God the Father.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  I know that approval is just part of a blessing, but it's, it's the part that people understand immediately. The approval of your dad, like, good job, son. Oh, yeah. That's like, everything. It's true. Well done, good and faithful servant. Amen. Amen. Yeah. So, um, speaking of wrestling, there's a phrase that you hear a lot, you never used to hear, um, until about maybe six or seven years ago. And now it's on the lips of every podcaster, and that's the spiritual war. Hmm. You know, the famous Ephesians quote, we fight against, you know, flesh and blood, but against principalities. And you're the preacher, you know the quote. Yeah. Uh, what is that? And what are its manifestations? The spiritual war? Yeah. That's a small question.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  I, I like to start narrow. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Uh, you know, we live, you know, on this side of a curtain. You know, we live in this temporal world, you and me, and in the rooms we're in. But, you know, we all think of ourselves as spiritual beings. That's a real common thing that people say. But, you know, we were fashioned by God as spiritual beings to be in relationship with Him. And there really is this, this curtain that behind which there is an entire unseen realm that is God and the host of angels and all that. And the, um, much like

• 18:33Speaker 02

  here, it's a, it's, it's a world that is in rebellion as well. And, you know, the irony is that the world we experience now was, was never meant to be separated from that. When God created all things, He created heaven and earth to overlap. He wanted to walk with Adam during the cool of the day. He wanted that man and, you know, as his, his image bearers were to be in relationship with God in a, in a very tangible way. But because of the way, you know, because of sin and the brokenness of the world, there's this, this separation that occurred. But I think now there really is a spiritual battle, as you quoted. Wait, but you said, you said, behind the veil, behind the curtain, the things we can't see, the unseen realm. Mm hmm.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Is God and angels, but it's not a civil war. I mean, there, there's turmoil there. It's a war, right? It is. That's what the way Scripture describes it. And so who is the war between?

• 19:27Speaker 02

  I think it's between God and, uh, you know, the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Creator of God. I think it's just in the way that God spoke all things into this world and the being, He also created a heavenly host. And you read that story in the book of Genesis with the serpent in the garden, right? You know, Genesis was where heaven and earth overlaps, and man walked with God, as we said a second ago. But you see this, you see the beginning of a divine rebellion there. You see this, this sort of mysterious serpent figure, which is, you know, we later learn is this, this Satan figure. And he rebels against God because he is, he's pridefully want to be equal with God. And if he's going to attack God, if he wants to unravel God, what's, what's, what's the first thing he's going to do? He's going to attack his plan, but he's going to attack his image bearers. Right.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  And that plan that you, yeah, people. And that plan that you see that he hatched in Genesis three, it's still a plan that's happening now. There's a, you know, we, our war is not against flesh and blood, but it's against these principalities and these powers and these things that come, and they, they weigh heavy on us, you know, as he's a deceiver and, and, uh, Satan, Satan, and, and his, and his henchmen, his demons and the demonic forces.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  And it's, it's very real.

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• 21:55Speaker 01

  So we're the same age-ish, of course, we're in the same college class. I didn't grow up in a world where that was considered real at all. And most people, I mean, you probably did because you're a son of a bishop, but I'm not a son of a bishop and I, I just never even imagined any of that was real. Thought God was real, but I didn't think there were actually like evil forces floating around unseen, impelling people toward self-destruction. I just didn't believe that. Now it's like the most obvious thing ever.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  It's obvious to you.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  I think it's obvious to like everyone I talk to, but self-selected group, of course, but.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  Sure. I mean, what is, what is the old quote, you know, the greatest trick the devil played is to convince humanity that he doesn't exist?

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  And I think that's part of, especially in America, you know, we don't, we don't live in a very, you know, we live in such a binary, you know, culture where, you know, we don't, we don't think in terms of that, generally speaking. We do more recently, but.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Materialist culture.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, materialist culture. Well said. And, but how does that play out?

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. What are the manifestations of it?

• 23:04Speaker 02

  I mean, you can see even on a large scale, you see it in the destruction of marriages. You see it in the, you know, pornography, you see in, you see it in, you know, addictions, you see them, things like that. You're, I find that I see those kind of attacks happen in the areas most egregiously, in those areas that God values most. So you want to know what God loves the most, watch what Satan attacks the most aggressively. And what does God love the most? You look at, you look at the creation story and all those things that God said in motion in the beginning, marriage and ideas of masculinity and gender and, you know, the, the role of humanity in the world, us being, you know, God's image bearers to, to, to create

• 23:47Speaker 02

  a kingdom that, that reflected his glory.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Wait, I'm gonna ask you to pause. So let's just, let's just go kind of through the list forensically here. So you said marriage, number one?

• 23:59Speaker 02

  I mean, not, and these aren't in a certain order, but I'm just kind of riffing about.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the ones that come to mind.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, marriage.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  And then that's explained as part of God's creation in Genesis.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. It's part of his creation mandate, you know, be fruitful and multiply. He created, you know, when you, when you read the story of God creating man, he, he creates Adam out of the earth and, you know, it's, and he, you know, he empowers him and he brings all the animals in front of him. And, you know, after each creation day, you hear God say, he says, what? He says, it is good. It is good. It is good. And the only thing that you read about in the creation story that God says wasn't good, was man's aloneness. He says, it's not good that man be, be alone. And so what, he said, what does he do? You know, he, he brings all these animals and there's, there was not a helper that was suitable for him.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  So he.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  The dogs came close, I think. I don't know.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Maybe a close second, but yes. Then he puts him to sleep and he pulls the rib and he makes, and he makes woman, he makes Eve. And there's the, you know, you hear, this is the, the first song ever, ever written in creation. Anytime you read the Old Testament and you see, you read the text and all of a sudden you see everything's indented. It's either poetry or a song.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  And the first words out of Adam's mouth were, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. I mean, he, he was smitten. But this was God's, you know, marriage was not a human invention. We, I say that at every, every, as part of our liturgy is the first thing I say and as I'm explaining marriage at a ceremony in our liturgies. It wasn't a human invention. It was God's idea. And it's something that, you know, honored cross-cultured Christian or not, people, you know, it's, it's something that's played out, but it's, it's, it's the, it's the seed from which, you know, so much goodness flows, children and family and, you know, a missional relationship into the world where you love others and all that kind of

• 25:47Speaker 02

  stuff. So, yeah, it was God's idea. He loves the idea. And he loves it so much that, that, you know, the marriage image is used throughout scripture, even the, the, the second, you know, when, when the new heavens and the earth come together and we, we finally, when, you know, the, God rolls up the script and, you know, the end is consummated. He describes it as a wedding banquet, you know, and it's, it's a beautiful picture. He talks about marriage as this picture of, that he gives us to be a picture of, of Christ's relationship with the church and the way that husbands are to love their wives, the way that Jesus loved the church and the wives to respect their husbands. But it's this, it's this beautiful

• 26:30Speaker 02

  image. So to say God, that's something God values would be one of the vast understatements of the decade. And that is why I think Satan attacks us so viciously.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  So you see it constantly because you're obviously a priest, you give sermons, do the Eucharist, but you also are a pastor to your congregants, people in your church.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  And you talk to them a lot. So in general terms, how is marriage under assault?

• 27:07Speaker 02

  I think, uh, marriage is, marriage is, well, to begin with, marriage is hard because you have two fallen people that come together and, and, you know, make all kinds of demands on each other. But I think it's under assault and the idea that, just, just the idea of marriage is under assault?

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's right.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  I mean, just the notion to, if you look at Europe, or I don't even know what the percentages are, but people aren't even getting married over there.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  The divorce rates are, are off the chain, uh, you know, and then just the idea of what marriage is, I don't think people see it in the light, in light of the larger story that we were just discussing, but that's sort of on a macro level, but.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  But when you talk to people, you talk to people who desperately want their marriages to work, to be happy, to continue, but they're struggling with it. What are the things that you hear? Where are the moments where you feel like this is a, a spiritual attack on husband and wife?

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think a spiritual attack, it takes, you know, I always say this is, you know, Satan attacks us in all sorts of ways. But the most nefarious ways is when he, he, he seeks to deceive us, right? But the most nefarious ways that he whispers in our ear is most of the time he whispers in our own voice. Right? And he whispers to us and we, it's this self-talk that we engage in. And, you know, again, I don't understand the mystery of how this functionally works.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  But it, and it, it stokes the, the embers of selfishness of our pride, you know, is, you know, to steal a quote, as Tim Keller so famously said, that, you know, if you want to know what the, your biggest problem in your marriage is, is selfishness. And it's always going to be that. And it's this journey of two self-oriented people.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Learning what it means to die to self. And what spiritual attack looks like in that, it's, it's through selfishness and it's through our own pride. And that can bubble up in a lot of ways. It can bubble up through adultery, or it can bubble up through people having, you know, secret lives, or pornography addictions, or just people losing sight of each other, you know? And it's so easy. I mean, you know, you have kids, you've lived a life, you know how, how difficult it is in marriage to stay connected and how people can, uh, you can stop talking or people, and that's part of the, just part of the discipline and part of.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  I don't know how people do it. I mean, people with kids at home, once, once kids leave, you're like, I don't know how we managed to stay married. No matter how much you love the person, you don't have time to talk.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a challenge, man. It is a discipline. One of the more common things when people come in, I do a lot of marriage counseling. People will come in and, and, you know, inevitably, one of the things they'll say is, you know, we just have a hard marriage. And I'll sit and I'll listen and I'll say, dude, you just got a marriage. Like marriage is hard. Again, it's, it's two fallen people learning to come together and find out, you know, what does it mean to love you and to pursue you and to lay down my life for you and love, love you more than I love myself. As it said in Ephesians 5, you know, what does it mean, you know, husbands, love your wives like Christ

• 30:24Speaker 02

  loved the church. Well, how did Christ love the church? It wasn't, you make, you know, clinging to his, you know, his authority and, you know, hammering, hammering his points home, though, you know, there were moments, right? But it was really laying his life down. And it's a great picture that we think of, like, what is love in marriage? Well, it's a lot of things. But one thing is not, it's not fair. Right? If you want fairness, go get a business partner. But if you want to love someone in marriage, the question is, hey, how do I, when I feel wrong, or I feel hurt, or I feel in a place where I feel unseen, like what the world would tell me is I have every right to not love you anymore

• 31:07Speaker 02

  until I get what's mine. But what the Christian called marriage, especially for husbands, is no. Yeah. You know, you play hurt and you continue to love and you still move forward and you, and you still, you know, wash feet and you still love your wife and. And that's, that's the call. And it's, it's a call to, it's a, again, to lay your life down. And it's ironic talking about marriage and speaking about it in any authoritative way. Cause it's topics like marriage or topics like prayer. They're topics that you riff on, but you never really feel like you have a handle on it. Right. Right? Like, sure, let me tell you about my wisdom on marriage, but it's, it's because I'm like, I, you know, you're always daily. Because, and that's how you, I think you keep a humble posture, but uh,

• 31:51Speaker 02

  I've never had any problem with humility, having three daughters, but um, it just kind of is baked in, you know? No, it's true, but you know, but you never feel like you have, you can wrap your arms around it fully. And because it is a mystery and, and it constantly requires a humility, which, you know, you've known me a lot, a lot of years and that's not something I come by naturally and most people don't, but, but it's also God's, I would say, uh,

• 32:18Speaker 02

  the profound gift of marriage is it is the crucible with which you, uh, God, uh, transforms your lives if you let it, you know? And ironically, it is those, those moments of, of brokenness and restoration where those transformations come from, uh, have, tend to happen the most profoundly. Of course, it's the crappy things you're grateful for. And it's those places too, that, you know, I've seen marriages,

• 32:51Speaker 02

  to, I've seen marriages shattered by adultery that have, because of the willingness and humility of the two people to invite God in the middle of it and to listen and to walk. I have seen those people emerge with marriages that they'd only dreamed they could have. Actually? Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. Like full blown cheating? Yeah. No question. And they would both sincerely say under polygraph, I'm happier in my marriage than I've ever been. No question. Really? Yeah. God works all things together for the good of those who love him. And if you let them, if you're willing to do it, I'm, I'm, don't, don't, don't let me sugarcoat it. It's, it's a brutal.

• 33:36Speaker 02

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• 37:23Speaker 02

  I am. Boy, that is just the story of all of our relationships with other people. It's like, it's always someone else's fault. That's like the default setting and most, and certainly in me. Yeah. Like I'm just, you know, all that, you know, I can't believe they did that. It's just the idolatry of our hearts and the part of that idolatry is my own self-image. And the thing about idols is that you can never see your idols until they're smashed. And there's no better place to smash the, the idolatry of self than in a marriage. Cause you know, where you're like, well, I think, and you know, no, I mean, your, your, your wife knows your, your wife is the most dangerous person in your world. That's for sure. Because she knows you. And you're the most dangerous person in her world because you know her, you know,

• 38:07Speaker 02

  you know, her, her wounded places, you know, where she's strong, you know, where she's weak, you know, her insecurities, you know, her sense of humor. You know, all the things. So you can either, you know, a few words from you, I mean, if you came to me and said, you know, insulted me in some way, you know, it might hurt my feelings and I, you know, we're, we're really close friends. So my, you know, it would kind of. I think it would wound you pretty bad. You, but, but if my wife said the same thing. Dude, I'm with you. I would be, I wouldn't, you know, it would. Take it out of bed. Yeah. Get out of bed, right? You're, you know, you were coming in, you know, so, um, but it just shows the power you have over. No, she's got a loaded gun. There's no doubt. But you also have such a tremendous power to bless one another and to raise one another. Well, I always say like, you, you see

• 38:53Speaker 02

  the glory self and the other, like, what does it mean to see who God is trying to call forward and to draw them forth? And that's hard, man. That's especially hard in conflict where you're sitting there and you're, you're at odds and you've, you know, you're angry or something like that. And of course, when you're angry, you feel justified or otherwise you wouldn't feel angry, right? That's the, that's kind of the, the, the foundation of anger is our self justification. But the discipline and the spiritual maturity in that is how do I still reach in there? And, and see that glory self of that person and, and, and draw them forward. And to see them as a child of God, as someone that I actually love, as someone who's precious. And it's very hard to remember. I have a picture of my wife.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  I have a picture of my wife of her, she's probably three years old. It's a cute kid. Beautiful. And it's stuck in my Bible and Psalm 139, which is the Psalm about, you know, you're fearfully and wonderfully made. But I will knit you together in your, in your mother's womb. And it just talks about the glory of creation and I do that on purpose because that's what I, I need to remember in a marriage. It's the thing that, that at any moment, because I love her deeply. And, uh, I want to love her and I want to, and, and it's really important that in order to do that well, you need to consistently see the value and the glory of this person that you're inextricably tied to at this point. Amen. Yeah.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  You mentioned pornography as a threat to marriage. It's like one of those things, I think we're just like maybe 10 years too old to really under, or speaking for myself, to really understand the magnitude of it. Mm hmm. How often does pornography arise in marriage counseling is a huge problem?

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  I think it's hard to overstate how pervasive it is now. If I meet with a man, like take marriage counseling out of it, just, just men in general, I, I assume that's in the mix until proven otherwise. Actually, yeah. And that's not an indictment, but I just, it's so pervasive. I'm safer to assume that's the case, that that's somehow part of the narrative than, than, than it's not. Because it's, it's, you know, we walk around with these little, you know, Apple porn boxes that people have in their hands, you know, and they, and you know, can you imagine being a

• 41:27Speaker 02

  teenager now? A teenage boy growing up where, you know, the, the greatest, you know, temptation in your life is literally three button clicks away at any moment. And what that's doing to the hearts and minds of young men and what it's doing to their concept of marriage and what that's doing to their concept of sexuality, you know, we're Gen X, you know, we're something like you and I came along, you want to do something, you had to work for it, you know, that's not like that. It is literally force fed to these young men. But you're only telling one half of the story. The other half is Tim Cook's a billionaire. So there has been a big upside to this. Yeah, yeah. If you're Tim Cook. No, it's crazy. We haven't had a revolution.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  I pray it's coming, but I don't think that will ever happen apart from revival. I think that's right. Because it's got a, and it's, it's, it's a, it's, again, not to belabor the point, but I think what that does, I think we, going back to what is spiritual warfare, you know, what is, how does it play out on practical levels? I think that's a profound evil. It's trying to, A, you know, anything, you know, the earlier you can damage someone sexually, just think about what that does. So real. It's so real. Totally. Just the way that plays out. You get stuck in patterns that are, men do anyway. I don't know about women. In human sexuality, it's malleable. All right. It's What? It's, um, yeah. It's not assigned at birth?

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it is, and it isn't. And the sense that it is, is that, that, what I mean is our, our sex, you know, our sexuality as we live it out, you know, our sex is assigned to birth, our gender is assigned to birth. It's obviously a God breathed, you know, holy call. And, you know, when we talk about things like pornography and the abuses of pornography and things like that, it's really easy to get to start, get, get your wheels caught into this sort of dark, melancholy aspect of it. But, you know, you gotta flip it over and first see like, you know, the glory of what God designed when he designed human sexuality, when he, when he called people and created man and woman to be sexual beings together, right? It's a glorious, it's a beautiful thing. It's a, it's this, in fact, you know, people often criticize Christians as

• 43:35Speaker 02

  saying, yo, you have such a low view of sexuality. I'm like, you, you've got to be kidding me. We have, we have a, such a higher view of sexuality than the world. I go, this isn't, this is, it's, it's a fire that, but it just needs to be kept into the fireplace. Right. It's not a consumer product, however. No, it's not a consumer product. It's not a, it's not an adult playground that we just go and Yeah, that make Tim Cook rich. But it has profound spiritual impacts for us if we cut against the grain of how God designed us for that. So when we talk about what you said, you know, that what we, you were asking about, like, how does that spiritual warfare play out in those, those, these content or in our world, in our life, on practical, boots on the ground level? Like, that's a, that's a perfect example.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's the assault and what God values, that, you know, the marriage and the, and human sexuality, because it, it knows that, A, if you can twist that, it will, it will turn us fully inward. It turns us, we become full blown consumers. We become a slave to appetites and we become, and I think the, again, going back to the, the beautiful thing that you see is that when the Lord heals in that place, you see so much, you see just the power of redemption and that, and watching men and women be restored and feel like they're washed clean, that they're

• 45:01Speaker 02

  not shameful or objects of shame. And it's a beautiful thing that, that God has blessed me to be a part of as I walk through. So what is it? So pornography was sold, internet pornography. I mean, I kind of remember this. I was married by the time the internet arrived, but I remember We're old. Well, you're old, but I, I feel fairly young. Yeah. Spry. Thanks to my consumption of Alp nicotine products. Product love.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  No, we are old. And, but there is some advantage in that, in that you sort of remember how things were sold when they first arrived on market. And I remember people saying, well, this is going to be the end of rape and sexual assault because there's a healthy outlet for sexuality in the, in the form of pornography. People said that. I mean, I remember when they said that. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I, I, I don't remember that, but I just, but that is Well, the internet would make us free and inform us when actually people like don't even read anymore and like we're surveilled constantly. So let's, we're going to put this fire out by, by pouring gasoline on it. No, I totally agree. For the last 50 years or so, oil has been priced pretty much exclusively in US dollars. It's called the Petro dollar. And the point was to give the dollar, our currency, built in

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• 47:36Speaker 02

  But I just didn't really think about it at the time. And at all, but, or really about anything worth thinking about at that time in my life. But anyway, fast forward 35 years, like what damage does it do? So you're a married man who's got a porn habit. Why is that bad? Like in practical terms, how does that divide you from your wife and family? Oh, we, we could spend the next three hours talking about this. But just give me the five minutes. I mean, yeah, no, in simple terms. One, it twists your view of, of sexuality and it twists your view of your spouse. And what I mean by that is, you know, people say, oh, it's the objectification of women. People say that all day, but it truly does do that. And, you know,

• 48:21Speaker 02

  women, you might not know this, women's sexuality is very different than a man's. What? Yeah, that's right. And, you know, They don't just get drunk and horny and like hook up with random people? They're not big dumb animals, right? They're, they're, and it doesn't mean it's less important for them. I agree. And God fashioned it for, and that's another cliche that people say, you know, sex just means more for men than it does for women. Actually, that's not true. It's not more important for a man than it is for a woman. Men just go about it differently. And, and for a man to understand the value of it for a woman, it requires us to slow down and to, to have that conversation and understand it and to listen in a way that we aren't naturally wired to do, or we don't feel like we can do in our, right? Yes. You agree with that? So

• 49:03Speaker 02

  I agree with it more than almost anything I've ever heard. It requires us to slow down. Slow down. That is number one. Absolutely. And My father always said that. Slow down. Your dad was a wise man, but On that topic, he was wise. Yeah. I am. So, um, but yeah, so the first thing that it does is it twists that, right? You begin, it presents this, these women as these caricatures of male sexuality. And I think that's not fair. And I think it does a tremendous amount of, of, of damage. That's one. Two, and again, this is not an exhaustive list, but two, it, it's, it pushes men into isolation and, you know, porn, pornography addictions or hidden sexuality, these are things that men, you know,

• 49:45Speaker 02

  they don't do out in the open. They, they, you know, they do in, in secrets. They do it in, and they do it in private and they don't tell anybody about it. Right? And the number one tool that Satan will do, use is isolation. Yes. He will push men into the shadows because what happens there, that's where shame can grow unfettered. And that's where, you know, people feel broken, more, you know, more perverse and where they become more broken and become more perverse, which makes you feel more, and it's this vicious feedback loop that begins to occur. So men, you know, they think they're, you know,

• 50:27Speaker 02

  it always, you know, it's interesting that always starts with, oh, I can handle this. And it becomes this sort of, you know, I'll smoke a cigarette a day, but the, you know, pornographic version of it. But before they know it, it becomes a consuming, a consuming thing in their lives. And so it, that's, it drives them into the shadows, which creates isolation, which creates shame, which creates, you know, a, a, you know, a false sense of self as you walk into marriage. And what is marriage? Marriage is, as it was designed, you read, you know, Genesis, chapter two, what does it say? He, he made right after the passage of, you know, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. It says, they were naked and unashamed. That they stood before each other.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  That's about sex, but that's also about a spiritual heart posture that men and women have in front of each other that is

• 51:16Speaker 01

  All that I am, all that I, you know, seen and unseen, I am, I am here before you.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  And pornography goes to war with that and pushes men into the shadows and women too, by the way. This is not, I mean, it is certainly more dominated by men, but what we've seen over the years is that this is something that women contend with as well. Easier for me to talk about because I'm a man and, you know, probably holds more credence, but it's, but it's very real. So, you know,

• 51:49Speaker 01

  creates caricatures of what sexuality is, creates caricatures of women.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  It screws up your sex life, doesn't it?

• 51:57Speaker 01

  It, yeah. So it, and then the other thing is, is what we said again, you know, our human sexuality, our, you know, our sex drives, they're malleable, right? And you feed that into those sort of, those, you know, perversions or those, you marinate in that kind of stuff. It will take you places you don't want to go.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  My father, when I was little, said to, this is so over the top, but I was gonna say it. It was my favorite line ever. I never say it because it's so over the top, but I remember driving the car with him and he was telling me, we were like eight and 10 or something and something about pornography came up and goes, yeah, it's a really bad idea. It makes you perverse. And he said, your sexuality is like a grain of, of wood. So if you take your fingernail and run it along a kitchen, a wooden kitchen table, it gets deeper with every pass. And he said, if you get into that, my father's very pro sex, like very pro sex, but he goes, it's a dark road and you keep getting, it gets weirder and weirder and weirder. The next thing you know, you can't get it up unless you're wearing a chicken costume.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  That's what he said. I have no idea what that means, but it stayed with me for 45 years, like a chicken costume.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Your dad had a chicken costume?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  I don't know. No, he did not have a chicken costume. He was very proud of not having a chicken costume.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  I understand. That's hilarious.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  I think he may have phrased it that way. It was just so evocative that it like, I wish my brother was here. He would confirm this. Like I never stopped thinking.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  I knew your dad. I believe that a hundred percent. I know your dad was awesome. Your dad was awesome.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  You can't get it up unless you're wearing a chicken costume. Anyway, uh, so, but that's the, kind of what you're talking about.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  I do. I think it takes you, again, it takes you places. It's, it's the law of diminishing returns. Right? So, you know, what it's, it's, it's like, okay, you need a, this amount of heroin to begin with. And before you know, you know, you quadrupled the dose and it's, it's all about the dopamine hit, you know? You, it's the same, our sexuality is no different.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  That it, when it's taken out of context, when it's taken into those places, when it's used in a way that God did not intend it. Like God, God's design for it is not to be prudish and to keep you from having a good time, like.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  Right? I mean, and it's the idea of like, how can this flourish and become something that doesn't, that is life producing and literally, but also that breeds intimacy between a man and a woman, that breeds a connection between a man and a woman, that breeds a sense of just wonder and, and awe and just beauty, right? And that was his design for it. And when you step out of that boat, man, like it does, everything I just described, it does the opposite of that. You know, if there's one thing I could tell young people, it's, it's protect that with all that you are. Cause the world is lying to you. It's lying to you about, about, you know, the frivolous, oh, it's no big deal. No, it is a big deal. And it's profound spiritual implications for you.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  It has, it has, it can take you places that one day you wake up and you say, I don't want to be here and I don't know how to get back. All right. There is, and the good news, I'll say this, if you have, they have been there and I've seen this over and over again. You know, oh, you know, it's, I'm damaged goods now. No, you're not. Like this is, God uses the broken things of this world.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  And he is, I mean, I, the places I've been, the places you've been, the things that we've done in our lives, like we're, God, God is all about the prodigals. And there's not, there's no one that is beyond redemption and healing and God loves to restore that because God loves that. Right? It ain't fun. Right? It's not a place you want to go. But if that's where you are and that's what you've done, it's okay. There's a God of grace that, that the reason, you know, Jesus doesn't put, see that and that's why Jesus steps back from the table. Actually, that's the reason Jesus came, because we misuse sexualities.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Because we, you know, we, we're bathed in our own shame because we, we make bad decisions because we're so committed to our own self destruction. That's why he calls him self destruction. That's why he calls himself a savior and not a, you know, a self-help guru. Because, because I need a savior. I need someone to reach down and pull me up and, and save me from me.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:17Speaker 02

  Right? It's not just, yes, there's a, on a theological level, he saves me from sin and he washes me clean and my, you know, my standing before God and all of those things, which is deep and profound and eternal and, you know, worthy of reflection for, you know, thousands of years. But

• 56:37Speaker 02

  when you boil it down, he really came to save me from me.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  You know, from my own devices and where I would go. I mean, you think of

• 56:48Speaker 02

  the number of things that God has saved you from that you're not aware of.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a long list of things I am aware of.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Right, right. But so think about how dramatic the thing, how dramatic the list is that he saved you from that you didn't even get to see. Right? And, and

• 57:04Speaker 02

  you know, even the way he's restrained your own appetites in those places that you didn't even know, you know? And, uh, so, yeah, going back to your question, I do think pornography, it's evil and it's done so much damage. And, you know, as you said, I think there's going to be a, I don't know what the word you use, like a revolution against it. But I don't think that's ever going to happen until we have an actual revival again, which man, do we need that? But we have to, we've lost the plot. And you lose the plot in sexuality. You're talking about that. You lose the plot of the gospel story, the creation story. And your story just kind of becomes about your narrative of, ah, my sex life, then, you know, it becomes a very dangerous thing.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  But when you read it in light of like what we're talking about, you took, you know, we just kind of touched on it, but you read the Genesis story and God's creative intention for that stuff. All of a sudden you become invited into, into this larger epic tale that becomes about something so much more and what you're, again, your soul is of so much more immense value than you ever imagined it was. And it's to be, to be a part of something that's so much more incredible than anything that you could ever cobble together on your own. Why wouldn't you want that? Right?

• 58:22Speaker 01

  You're the person who put the gender stuff in context for me when this first happened. People questioning whether gender is real, you know, sex distinctions are real.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  This has been going on for 70 years, of course. It's the core premise of, of second wave feminism, that really there's no difference between the sexes. So I obviously rejected that. But then it became much more radical 10, maybe 10 years ago.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Doesn't it strike you, but even in every context, that, you know, be it secular or in church contexts, when people argue, you know, there are no gender distinctions. You know, you can make theological arguments, you know, biblical arguments, whatever, but just simply saying that like, hey, before 70 years ago, literally no one agreed with us. Like you can't really find a place in us that we're.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  So in all human history?

• 59:17Speaker 02

  In all human history. So I'm not going to even argue I'm right or I'm wrong, but doesn't that make you want to pump the brakes a little bit?

• 59:23Speaker 01

  No, because we have atomic weapons now. And I'm to this, let me just indulge my theory, which I can't control myself from talking about.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  Run, baby.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  You've heard it before, but I just think, I think nuclear weapons, which I don't think were created by people, sorry. I don't care how many movies they make about it. I don't believe that.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  You didn't see Oppenheimer?

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. Wouldn't watch that crap. Wouldn't let that into my head for one second. But anyway, because it's all lies. But anyway, sorry, now I'm getting really crazy, but it's all true. What I'm saying is true. I think once man possessed the power or believed he possessed the power to destroy everything that's alive. I think that he rejected God. Like that is kind of like reject, that's rejection of God. And like everything changed after that. People became convinced they were gods. And that's when the true craziness started. It's on the sixties, the sixties, or the, you know, Obama years or whatever you want era. It's like post-nuclear weapons. That's what I believe.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  So anyway, but the gender thing kind of exploded maybe 10 years ago with this like, really, we're going to assign the child a gender or let him choose his gender or whatever. And I was like confused by, I thought it was so crazy that I just didn't take it seriously at all. And you're the one who made me take it seriously. And you said, I'll never forget it. You said, this is a direct attack on God's design as described in Genesis. So can you flesh it out a little bit? This is not like an accident. Like this was always going to happen is basically what you said.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, well. When you read the Genesis narrative, right? You know, again, God, God, you know, in the beginning, God creates the heaven and the earth. And you have this picture of this sort of chaos that happens and the, and as God's spirit hovers over the water, you know, the Hebrew, it's, it's, it's, it's the hovering is almost like a mother bird's wings hovering over the chaos. And he begins to speak things into order. And you know, you've got day one and he creates light and he's to, you know, as it grows, he separates the land from the, from the waters and he throws the stars in the sky. He shoots this fish in the sea and the animals come. And then each time you see each created order or each creative day, what you're watching is it grows in glory.

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  It grows in complexity, but it grows in glory. And each time God is, it's good, it's good. And then you get to day six where God creates humanity. And it's this sort of crowning explosion of creation, the, the largest expression of his glory. Actually, the crown jewel of creation was the last thing which was created. And that was, those were women. That is the final, most glorious creation and

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  That's certainly how I feel.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  And that's the way the story needs to be read. Right? So if people just side notice, you know, women always it's, and I have, I have sympathy for it, for, and there's much the church needs to apologize for, for the ways that they've hurt women over in the past. But I can tell you from, as a, as a Bible nerd, I can tell you that that is the fault of man and not of God, because the biblical story elevates women in a way that, that, that the world never would. They would, anyway, so back to our point. So in this crown jewel of creation with humanity, he could have expressed it in any way. And he, and he, and he created man, he created man and he created woman.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  You know, they are, they are, they, he created masculinity and he created femininity. This is not a human construct. It is not a social construct. Of course, there are things that, that, you know, cultures and, you know, you know, cultural moments can shape the way those are expressed. But generally speaking, masculinity as we understand it, it's, it's not just, oh, you're a dude. It's a holy calling. It's a holy calling. And as God says, you are his image bearer in this world. And women are his image bearers that come together to create this fuller image of what God is to be expressed and rolled out into the world as their image. Or we, it would behoove us to understand what is this thing called masculinity that

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  I've been saddled with? Or I've been, I have been called to? What is femininity that I have been called to? And is, is men, I think, well, to your point, I think that's A, that, that you cannot, there's many people that make theological arguments against what I just said.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  You can make many theological arguments. You just can't make a biblical argument against what I just said. You just can't read the scripture in any just intellectually honest way and just not see that that's just the way it is. And also experientially.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Well, I know it's true experientially because God also doles out punishments for eating the fruit. And he says to Adam, you're gonna live by the sweat of your brow. It's gonna be hard for you to make a living. You can go to work.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  Thorns and thistles, futility, yeah.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  And he says to Eve, two things. One, childbirth is gonna be hard for you. And two, your desire is gonna be for your husband.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  Rule over him.

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  And he's gonna rule over you. And those are the things that men and women resent. I've noticed, you know, men need to work. They derive satisfaction and self-respect from work, but they also hate to work because it's hard. Women, of course, most women love children, but they, they fear childbirth and that is suffering. And there is a sense in which women resent.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  Men hate work and women might resent that stuff. We can, we can do that, but when we lose the plot. But when we step back into the story, right? When we, through, you know, when we, when we encounter God in a real way through the, through the, through the gate of Jesus, we go through and begin to see the redemptive story. But when we see the creation story and the creation purpose, like we just described, and you realize, wait, this is a holy calling. I'm actually, what, what was God, when God called Adam? Work was, work didn't happen after the fall. God's purpose was work for Adam. He said, I want you, again, what we said, again, God created Eden, Eden, which was this holy place, this, but the rest of the world wasn't like Eden.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  And when he says to Adam, I want you to exercise dominion. What he's saying, it's not just, I'm putting you in charge. What he was saying is I'm giving you a job and I want you to take what is in Eden and I want you to take it all around the rest of the world. I want you to turn the world into, into this. I want you to drag the realities of this out and create, go be ruthlessly human in relationship with God. Go create cities and art and cuisine and all these things that become, you know, become, build out the kingdom of God. Right? And when you see that, when Jesus came talking about the kingdom of God, it wasn't plan B. He's grabbing plan A and just saying that we're, we're reinstated. It's all about that. And so when you see in Revelation, chapter 21, which is the end of the story where it

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  says, behold, I see, you know, the new heavens and the earth are coming down and behold, I'm making all things new. And, and, and it's this glorious picture of, of the consummation of all things. That holy city that's coming down, that was the city that Adam was supposed to have built. And all of a sudden, where Adam failed, Jesus is the second one. He succeeded and he came and he made this happen. Why does that matter? How does this go into, to our, uh, this question about man being, working and, you know, uh, and all this, the sense of futility? Not only is masculinity a holy calling, but the work that we're, we're, we're to put our, our hands to, when we have now have a gospel lens, when Jesus says the, the kingdom

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  of God is at hand, we get to be participants now in, in the original mandate to how do we bring and build the kingdom of God here and now? And all of a sudden animates, I don't care if you're a plumber or you're a lawyer or you're a, you know, baker or candlestick maker, that all of a sudden we are now participants in something that God is doing, that we get to bring the realities to bear in our world. And that, that sense of futility, uh, I think when we, we can maintain that perspective, I don't think our sense of futility can stand, or it goes to war with our sense of futility. Does that make sense?

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  It does make sense. Can I add one liner note?

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  Please.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Eden was what physically? It was a land of rivers and trees?

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Great question. Actually, I'm a, I'm a Genesis nerd, so I'm gonna go

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Rivers and trees though, correct?

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  Rivers and trees.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Okay, so.

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  Eden was also, I believe it says in Ezekiel, it describes it as on a mountain, which is kind of a lost fact.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  So rivers, trees and mountains?

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  And a place where God, the divine and the human, and, and the human overlapped and, and dwelled together.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  So maybe there's a reason that when people are in office buildings, they feel differently from the way they feel when they're next to rivers.

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  Hanging out in Maine, yeah.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And maybe anyone who destroys rivers and trees is on the wrong side.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  The Lorax might have had a point.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  I really believe that. I believe that. I believe that trees are really important. They're all over the Bible. I think cedar has a special place.

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  But you look at it, it's true, but you, you, but you, when you read, again, going back to the creation story, each creation's day after God made the trees. And what did he say? He says, it's good. It was good in and of itself because he found pleasure in it. Not just for its utility, not to, but it's also, um,

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  And not just for its utility.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  Not just for its utility. It's for, and so we're, when Adam was to exercise dominion, it wasn't like, what are you gonna kill and cut down? It was how are you gonna nurture?

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  How are you gonna take this and bring it everywhere?

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Well, and that's why when people get in that kind of relationship with nature, they feel a deep satisfaction and a peace that is clearly from God.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  So when you deny people that, that is, when you deny them beauty, when you destroy beauty, God's created beauty, that is not good.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  I just preached on this the other night, but is it the idea?

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  Of redemption and the idea of recreation, when you Genesis, I think it's 317 where it says, talking about, you know, thorns and thistles and we'll push back. One of the lines is, it says, cursed is the ground because of you, says God speaking. And what he's saying there is because of your sin, you, Adam, who I've put in charge of the created order as my vice regent, because of your sin, now it is, it is paid for and it has corrupted the creation. So the earthquakes and the fallenness of this world is a product of the fallenness of man. So when you read in Romans eight, it talks about the creation groans and the way the creation groans,

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  because you know, scripture tends to personify, you know, the birds and the mountains and all. And it says, the creation groans, right? Yeah, of course. In Psalm 19, you know, all the creation sings of God's glory, but the creation groans, but in the same way, it is, the redemption of creation is going to be tied to the redemption of man and the redemption of humanity. So as we are, have been recreated and are living out that recreation, and one day we'll stand in the full realities of our recreation, so will the world. It is tied to when Jesus came to redeem all things, he wasn't just talking about people, all things, the cedars, as you just said, and the trees and the rivers and the,

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  and I can't wait for that day.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  I agree with that. But on the way to that day, we, I think, I know, because I experienced this this morning, so I watched the sun come up, you can get flashes of it.

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  All around us.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  And it's our, it's, it's, and we can, we can participate in that. That's, you know, behold, the kingdom of God is his hand. What is, what is Jesus doing in those moments when, in the New Testament, when he, we talked about this last night, when Jesus is, every time you see Jesus doing a miracle, like, what is Jesus doing in that moment? Is he just doing a trick? Is he trying to sort of flex his like God muscle and show them like, this is what I'm capable of? Is this a proof? I mean, there's some of that where he's like pulling back the curtain and revealing his divinity and who he is and where people sit back and he stills the wind and the waves and people aren't, aren't just quit asking like, who are you? They're now asking like, what are you?

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  Right? But when Jesus, one of the things that he's doing in those moments where he is, you know, where he heals, heals, you know, the hemorrhaging woman, or he raises Jairus' daughter from the dead, or he calls Lazarus out of the tomb, what he's doing is he's reaching forward and he's grabbing the realities of the new heavens and the new earth that we will one day live in the full experience, and he's planting them in the moment. And he's giving people a foretaste of like, this is what the kingdom of God is. This is what the kingdom, so, you know, the, the journey of redemption and recreation for, is not about how do we get man out of earth into heaven? The journey and the ultimate consummation is how do we

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  get heaven and earth back together? And that's, and those miracles that we begin to see as, the miracles we were just talking about, are, is Jesus doing that very thing? And to your point, where you say, well, I stand out there and I see pops of this, we now get to participate in that. So we get to bring the realities of the new heavens and the new earth. How does that look? Well, here's the new, when we bring, when we bring comfort to someone who is lost in grief, when I sit with a couple who is shattered by adultery, or their marriage is in, or someone is on their deathbed, and they are scared and they feel alone, and you

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  sit and you pray with them, and you're bringing those realities to bear, when you feed the hungry, when you love the, the, very difficult to love. You know, that's our call. When you plant a garden, right? I know these are kind of, oh, come on. No, really. When you plant a garden, like, what are you doing? That's, it's an ancient call. I mean, that's what Adam did. You know, that's what Noah did. You know, he was a, he was a, you know, he was a farmer. He grew grapes, you know, this is, but we are participating in the, in the.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Anyone who doubts that, anyone who would mock the idea of garden planting as a profound act is just not, hasn't lived long enough.

• 1:14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not very good at that. I'm.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  I watered my wife's garden the other night. She had to go and she's like, we watered my garden? Took me like 40 minutes, by the way. But by the end, I was like, man, that was like amazing. That was amazing. All I did was water the garden.

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  I'm exercising my dominion with a hose.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  I'm with you, man. Yeah. So the gender, the question of whether God created male and female, this is not some minor question.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  And liberating people from the constraints of gender is probably not actually liberation? Is that what you're saying?

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  No, it's, I think it's, it's a, it's a confusion. It's sad, you know, and in fairness, let me, let me take it from a non-political kind of lens of it, because it's like, I know that's a cultural move, but just take it down to, you know, there are people that, and I'm a deep heart for that, people that have profound confusion in that place.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  And, and brokenness in that place, and that feel very lost in that place and feel very, and the way Christians talk about it in a sort of argumentative way.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  You know, like, oh, you're right, we're wrong. I'm like, dude, that's, that, you know, we can fight a sort of air war, a theological war, and have these kind of debates, but at the end of the day, you got to remember, like, we're talking about people here.

• 1:15:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  Right? And there are legit people that are hurting and asking real questions in this place that have, and.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  A lot of them.

• 1:15:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  Like, not a small number.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  That's right. And, and I think one of the disservices in the church that we can do is because we get so consumed in the theological debate, that, you know, we, we lose the trees and see the forest, right? And when you look at the trees, these are people.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  So let me flip the question around. What would you say to someone who was in your care, just another human being, your neighbor, as defined by the New Testament, who was questioning his or her gender? What would you say to that person? Presumably, you don't want that person to have, to question, and you don't want the person to, you know, take the next steps, but you love that person, so probably not screaming at the person. So what do you say?

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  Well, I'd tell you, the first thing I would say is, well, first thing I would, I would walk with a profound humility, because I know that I'm stepping into a story that has, that involves a tremendous amount of shame and a sense of isolation, because this is something this person undoubtedly had been contending with far longer, at a far younger age than.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  In solitude.

• 1:17:03Speaker 02

  In solitude, which is heartbreaking to think of a child asking theological questions for which they shouldn't be asked to contend with. Like, am I going to hell? Am I this? Am I, like, that's, that's like, I, I could, I weep thinking about that. And so my heart posture in that is one of deep and profound compassion. Because they didn't, they didn't ask for that.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Speaker 02

  And it is, and for those that sit on the opposite side of a theological fence to just come at this with hammer and tongs, like, you might win an argument, but bro, you are shattering people and you're winning no hearts in that place.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:17:47Speaker 02

  It is the, it is the God's, it is God's kindness that leads to repentance. And we would, excuse me, we would be wise to remember his kindness to us before we ever step into a conversation like that. So what would I say?

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  And by his kindness to us, you mean?

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  They're no better than, than me. I mean, I'm no better than them.

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  Hey, what, what lottery, I mean, I'm saying like.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  Do I know what you're saying? We were talking last night.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  Why, we single this issue off, dude. And it's like, like, okay, but I will like somehow wink at greed or somebody's, or my own, you know.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Or bloodlust.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  Or bloodlust, or whatever it is. And we can wink at all these things, but like, you know, like, all those things keep me out of, like, I deserve, I deserve hell for all those things.

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Right. No, I get it.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  It is, but for the grace of God, period. And we talked about the things that God saved us from, that we don't like, like, and the malleability, like, why aren't you dealing with that? Why am I not doing? Like, I don't know. I'm not, and I'm thankful I'm not, but it's, so how do you, so how do you walk into it?

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  What do you say? You don't say anything first. You listen, man. And you earn the right to be heard. You earn the right to be heard. You sow seeds, dude, and you listen. And the way you sow seeds is you non-judgmentally listen and you invite forward. Who are you, man? Because that doesn't define you. And you become a safe place and a trustworthy place, not with an agenda, so you can eventually pull this judo move to show them how they're wrong. Because this is not your job. Right? It's God's job to move someone's heart. It's God's job. Like when Jesus ate with sinners, what did he do? Do you think he sat around and he got, because he just sat around and he ate with

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  the tax collectors and the drunkards and the prostitutes? Did he sit there and the conversation was him going around the room telling them where they were wrong and he was right? Like, no, that would be a very short hang, right? That's not a good party. But no, it's because they liked him. And why did they like him? Because he probably listened really well. And he probably sat with him. And he earned the right to be heard. And as a prophet, that is a

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  wonderful philosophy of ministry as you step into places like this with the broken and the bruised and the bruised reeds and the smoldering wicks, as scripture says, and you listen and you

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  and hopefully they come out of the shadows and begin to talk about the struggle and you and you honor it and you love them and you let, you know, you let the Lord steer it. Like, if I would be doing a disservice, what do you say? Like, I don't know, it depends how, who I'm talking to and whatever, but I know what I, I know what I wouldn't say and I know what I wouldn't do and I wouldn't lead off with a, with a moral lecture on what, because they, they know, they've contended with those arguments. They could probably shape those arguments better than I ever could, because they've dealt with them far longer and in far more personal ways. So, yeah, I'd love them well. And then, you know, I think, again, what does it mean to, to do the work of God in places like that?

• 1:21:13Speaker 02

  It's the same thing in anywhere else. A bunch of years ago, someone asked me this question. I was working with a, doing some chaplaincy work with the soccer team and he was joking about, what is it like to do the Lord's work? And I kind of like, I thought it was a kind of a weird question and I thought to myself for a minute, I was like, you know what, man?

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  I'm not doing the Lord's work. The Lord is doing the Lord's work. My job as a, as a priest, as a pastor, as a Christian, as a man, is to, is to cultivate a heart that knows what it means to listen to the Holy Spirit and to see where the Holy Spirit is moving and just agree with it.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  And just agree with it. Right? How do we learn that? How do we cultivate that? We learn it through reading the Word. We learn it through prayer. We learn it through worship. We learn it through doing these conversations. We learn it through our relationships with other men, our women, and our marriages. But we tune our hearts, as the hymn says, we, Lord, tune my heart to your grace, so I know I can see it when you're doing it. And I can just agree with it.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  And the doors you open cannot be shut. The doors you closed can be opened. They just, help me not beat my head against those doors that won't open. And when I'm dealing with a human heart, it's the same question. How do I, what, what doors are you opening there? And how do I talk to them in a way that they need to hear this? Not the way that I can be right.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, people have an overwhelming need to be right or desire to be right.

• 1:22:48Speaker 02

  I do. It's hard, man.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  I don't, but I

• 1:22:51Speaker 02

  No, I know you don't.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  I look at you with pity and concern. Yeah, I understand. Imagine, you need to be right, need to prove your point.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Well, that was a beautiful

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  description of how to actually love somebody rather than, I mean, because I know where you're coming from, which is you want to see people genuinely liberated and not led into their destruction by any, any of these things, you know, and but you're, we're all fighting against our desire to be right, really, is what it comes down to.

• 1:23:26Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:27Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, 100%.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  Can I say one thing, though, that I can't, can't resist? So, Jesus, there's this moment where he says, you know, woe to anyone who leads the, the children astray. And you do feel like when you're looking at people who are beset by any of these agonies with, I mean, if you're, you know,

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  you look at them with compassion. But then you think like, someone lied to them and got them here in the first place. And I feel less compassion for that person. I'm just going to say that.

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  There's a lot of voices, man. And I would, there's a lot of people that will vehemently disagree with me and that's okay. But I would just say that as people ask those questions about their own life and they're going through, you can easily find someone to affirm the path that you're going down to.

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:25Speaker 02

  Right? I mean, there's so many different flavors and denominations and expressions of that, like, you want someone to prop up your lifestyle and give you theological and biblical justification? Like, you don't have to scratch, scratch very deep to find someone to do that.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  But that's why I think it's so important that, that we, that's why, like I said, I'm a Bible nerd. And I think it's so important that, that, that it's scripture alone, man. We have to, we have to go, you know, we have to go to scripture and test it, everything against, measure everything against what we're hearing in the world, what you're hearing from me, what you hear from, you know, the church and leaderships. Like, I'm not, I'm not scripture. Right? I'm not like, what's right, what's wrong? Who gets to answer that question? Who gets to be the one to answer that question? Do I get to answer that question? No, God gets to answer that question. Okay, so that's, we can all agree. Most people will stack hands. God's the one that gets to answer that question. Okay, how does God answer that question? Does he answer it through me?

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  He answers it through his word. Right? He answers it through, that, that's how God has taken a knee and he has written this redemptive, historical, sort of incredibly rich, dynamic gift to us that's called the Bible. And if, if we're people that want to understand what it means to, to ask these questions, to move in these directions and to do it with any, any truth and integrity, we have to measure what we're hearing against this, you know, it's, you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind through the scriptures, it says in Romans. And so we can test in God's good and perfect will. We can test it. Is this God speaking to me? Or is this some,

• 1:26:12Speaker 02

  you know, new fangled cultural moment that's just trying to like, you know, vie for air dominance right now or whatever, you know, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:26:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  So. Addiction has been a feature of, well, it's described in the Bible. So it's, you know, it's been around since people have been around, I think, but it does seem like a bigger factor in the lives of Americans than 40 years ago. I mean, I know that it is, because there's just a lot more ways to get addicted and there's less cultural resistance to addiction than there's ever been. And so like, entire generations are getting destroyed by it.

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  More things that are more obvious things to be addicted to that aren't just substances.

• 1:26:52Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:26:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  So how big a presence is addiction in your experience of counseling?

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, it's just part of it, you know, and it's a, you know, doing what I do, obviously you encounter, you know, when people come into my office and they knock on my door, very rarely it is like, hey, I have a question. Why in the book of Numbers did so and so, you know, why did Moses hold up a golden, you know, serpent or whatever? It's rarely questions like that. It's more like

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  Are you psyched when it is, though?

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, actually, that's a lot easier.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  It's a lot easier because

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  but it's people that are coming in with it, you know, they can't keep their cheese on their cracker, man. And they're saying, hey, I'm addicted to this or my marriage is coming apart. And

• 1:27:43Speaker 02

  so addiction is, it's a, it's a, you know, again, you've got substance abuse, you've got alcoholics, you've got people that, you know, opioids now, which is insane. You've got these things, you know, the, the list is endless.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Gambling, pornography.

• 1:27:57Speaker 02

  Gambling, pornography, gambling is huge. That is, God, that scares me because of just the online stuff.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  You see that?

• 1:28:03Speaker 02

  I don't, I have seen it. It's not something that I have faced, but I know a lot about it. I know a lot of people that have gone that journey. And that is one of the most nefarious and hard to beat addictions is gambling. And but all that to say,

• 1:28:21Speaker 02

  But to those that contend with addiction, you know, the one thing that I can say, and then I can say this unequivocally, is there is so much hope for people. It's not a path that you ever want to walk down. But my favorite people that I deal with are my friends in AA, or my friends in, you know, that are in NA, or that have gone through recovery, that have had, you know, all their self-righteous pretenses stripped down, that have been brought down to the studs, who have, you know, blown up their lives. So they don't have anything to prove. And they've been on this redemptive journey. I always talk to these people, I would say, would you please come and join my church? Would you please come and be a part? I'm like,

• 1:29:06Speaker 02

  we need this. Like, the church needs to be a hospital, not a showcase.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  I've never been to a church as Christian as some AA meetings I've been to.

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  I agree with you. And it's, you know, church needs to be a place where we can get blood on the walls. And you know what I mean by that? Where we can tell the truth. You know, church is not designed to be an AA meeting, and AA meetings are not designed to be church. But there are aspects of it where-

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  The humility and the honesty.

• 1:29:30Speaker 02

  The humility, the honesty, to where people can come in and walk through the doors of a church and say, this is populated by people that I could sit in a room full of men, or a room full of women, a room full of couples, and I could have a human yard sale of what I've done and who I've been in my life, and I would be met with love and grace, and people looking at me and saying, I want to hear more of that. That when I show you the most wretched parts of me, it doesn't push you away, but it draws you closer, because you're able to look me in the eye and say, yeah, I get it, man, me too. You know? And that's, that is, you know, that's, because what that does, it does a lot, you know, our

• 1:30:15Speaker 02

  biggest, most, you know, with addiction especially, and, you know, be it pornography, gambling, alcohol, whatever it is, sweets, or whatever you're addicted to.

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  No, I don't think it's fair to put sweets on this.

• 1:30:28Speaker 02

  That might be a little too much. But it is, it breeds so much shame.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  Right? It breeds so much shame. And that's what sin does. It breeds shame. You read the story in the garden, when Adam eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he runs. What's the first thing Adam does? Is he run, and he hides in the bushes?

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30:49Speaker 02

  He hides. And then God comes in, and he asks the question, he says, Adam, where are you? What are you, what are you, why are you hiding? A little pro tip, anytime God asks a question in scripture, he already knows the answer. He does. But what he needed Adam to see, is he needed Adam to see the answer. And Adam comes out, and he says, what, he says to him, he says, why were you hiding? And right, Adam's in the garden. There's one rule in the garden, don't eat of this tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And Adam's broken that rule. Sin enters, and he hides. And when God asks him, why are you hiding? The logical answer is, I just broke the one rule. That's not what he says, though. He says, I was naked, and I was ashamed. And to paraphrase that, he was saying, I

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  wasn't hiding because I have done something wrong. I'm hiding because I am something wrong. And I could not bear for you to see me. And if you saw me, you would reject me, and I would be alone. And that is the most foundational cry of the human heart, which it was the cry of Jesus on the cross when He became sin, when He truly became like us, and He absorbed the sin of humanity. And He quotes the Psalms, and He says, my God, my God, the cry of dereliction, why have you forsaken me? He could have said anything in that moment. But it was this cry of our deepest longing, don't leave me, like this shameful thing that I am. So going back to the AA, the biggest poison that leads to

• 1:32:12Speaker 02

  addiction, and it's this shame engine that drives us. And I don't want to feel it, so I drink, and I feel more shame, and I still, I drink more, and it just becomes this cycle. But when you get into these rooms, and you're able to have, like I just said, like you have a yard sale, and you're able to say, this is what I am. I am Billy, I'm an alcoholic, or I'm talking about this, or I'm whatever it is. And you can lay that out in front of a group of people. And they sit there, and they don't run away. And they don't give you the rejection that you think that you deserve, that pushed Adam into the bushes. It does, it just sweeps the knee of your shame. And all of a sudden, the thing that Satan meant for evil, God means for good, and the place of your greatest destruction,

• 1:32:56Speaker 02

  your greatest fears, your greatest self-sabotage, becomes the place where life grows. Like, tell me there's not a living God. Tell me there's not a God that is using the tools of the enemy against Him, right? That makes us more than conquerors, right? That's beautiful. And so, do I encounter addiction? Yeah. And when I find guys that have been through recovery, I love them.

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:33:23Speaker 02

  I want more of them.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  I feel exactly the same way.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. So you made, I think, the most profound thing you said was, the core human fears don't leave us alone. And that the first thing that God saw that was wrong with creation was Adam's solitude. It's not good for man to be alone. It does feel like people are more alone.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:33:55Speaker 02

  We're isolated, especially as men.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Why as men?

• 1:34:03Speaker 02

  Because we are scared to be found out. You know, men, we live in the same way. You know, that description I just said of Adam, he's like, you know, there's something that's, that's, you know, I'm not something right. It said, Adam, on this course, that I have to become, it's on me, I've got to become, this ruthless quest for validation. And that's the sort of spiritual genetic heritage that we've all received. I think as all men, we are born with this idea of that, I'm incomplete, and it's on me to

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  be enough. And I'm terrified, isn't, that, you know, I, one is, but, you know, as a man, I've spent much of my life, too much of my early life, terrified that people would see that I don't have it all together. Like, we all, like, have two things in common. One, none of us have it all together. And the second is, we all want everyone around us to think we do.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:35:12Speaker 02

  Right? And the idea, and the fear of that, is if I let you see that, the same fear that Adam had, that you would, you would see something that you found undesirable, and you would abandon me. And I would be left alone. So as men, we have become so artfully skilled at working side by side, and doing acts of, you know, you know, working side by side, and, you know, playing golf together, and doing all these things, but just know nothing about each other's lives.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  I think that's right. But if I could just be the liberal for a moment and blame society also, I think the structures have completely changed in the world around us. And I think it is more and more difficult for men to find the chance to be with other men.

• 1:36:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  Just men. I mean, that is total, well, by the way, it's measurable.

• 1:36:06Speaker 02

  Well, it's an ancient problem. I think one of the great unspoken miracles in scripture is that Jesus, as a man in his mid-30s, had 12 best friends.

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  Right? Like, how many men in their 30s, like, the last, most men, I spend a lot of time ministering with men. I love it. It's one of my favorite things, is that one of the, one of the last times that men remember having real relationships was back in college.

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:36:35Speaker 02

  There's the last time, and then they step into the workforce, they get married, which is wonderful, and they have children, which is wonderful. But they lose sight of the importance of male relationship. They lose sight of, they lose sight of the value of why you need men around you. And this is something that, I mean, Jesus demonstrably demonstrated that in his 12 disciples, with his 12 disciples. That was, you know, He illustrated a lot of things with that. But on a most basic level, it was just, hey, we need that. You read Mark, chapter 2. What is the story where Jesus is in Capernaum? And he's there, and he's teaching in the house, and it's packed, and there's people like hanging in the windows, and no one can get in or out. And there's these, there's

• 1:37:17Speaker 02

  a man who's been paralyzed. And they can't, and they want Jesus to heal him, and they can't get to him. So his friends, his four friends, or however many friends it was, they pick up the mat, and they grab the corners of the mat, and they carry their friend. And they go to the roof of where Jesus is teaching in this house, and they begin digging, and they tear the roof off. You can imagine Jesus just feeling the chunks coming down, and he's like, what's going on? And they're like, our friend is hurt. My friend needs you. And they lower this man down.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  If I were to go down the street, how many men do you think? And I polled randomly, how many men do you think would have mat carriers?

• 1:37:59Speaker 02

  I do.

• 1:38:00Speaker 01

  I do too. Thank you for being one of those mat carriers.

• 1:38:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  Well, we saw this coming 40 years ago.

• 1:38:07Speaker 02

  You saw it coming.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  No, I just knew that men in there, because I saw it among men I knew and respected and loved, they would get, you know, to middle age and then old age, and they had no real male friends. And so we decided, the five of us in college, we're not, we're not, not gonna let that happen. And we set up a pretty complex structure to maintain that friendship. And we did.

• 1:38:33Speaker 02

  We sure did.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  And for, you know, 40, over 40 years now. And so that really one of the profound things in my life. But I just know, I really feel like I'm one of very few 57 year old men I know, who has like four best friends, for real though, not, not kind of academically my best friends, but like people I see regularly, who are the godfathers of my children, who we, you know, travel somewhere in the world every single year, who I talk to all the time, who I've relied on consistently for 40 years for advice, or if I needed it, money, or whatever I need. And I will say, not to brag, but it's not bragging, it's just the nature of it. Of those four men, or five men, all five are still happily married.

• 1:39:18Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  All five have children who respect them, all five are just basically happy.

• 1:39:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  And I think it's the, in part, the results of those friendships.

• 1:39:27Speaker 02

  Oh, that's been one of the, the single most profound gifts of my life. You've been one of the most profound gifts of my life. Partly, you know what's funny about that group of, our group of five guys, is you couldn't find five more different people.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:46Speaker 02

  Right? And the, the beauty of it was the commitment and the covenant where we pushed.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  That's exactly.

• 1:39:53Speaker 02

  We were 20 years old, we didn't know what we were saying. And we pushed in and we said, all right, we, we will not break this, this, this covenant, this vow with one another.

• 1:40:03Speaker 01

  Until we die.

• 1:40:04Speaker 02

  Until we die. And we have not, and we will not. But the thing about it is, you think about all the seasons of life where we've been through, and all the incarnations of birth and births and deaths and, you know, all the transitions and, you know, all the tears that have been cried, and all those things that, you know, we've won and we've lost. And then, and the, how the world has tried to conspire to pull our relationships apart just by proximity, but we've really held to that. And for me, I know personally, I'd just say, knowing in those dark places, that I could always just reach out.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:40:46Speaker 02

  And just knowing that you're there, and knowing that the other guys are there, is, it's been such a gospel expression. The number of times, I talked about earlier, you remember we were saying about how, you know, Jesus comes, he saves us from our sins, he saves us from, you know, breaks the back of sin and death, but, you know, foundation, he's saving me from myself. And the reason, one of the reasons I love our friendship is the number of times you guys have stepped in and kind of saved me from my, my own decisions.

• 1:41:15Speaker 01

  Been there.

• 1:41:16Speaker 02

  Right?

• 1:41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:17Speaker 02

  Just being able to speak like, hey, I wouldn't do that, or, you know, just loving each other through hard times. And, I mean, you know, losing, I remember my dad died, I will never forget it. It was last January, and walking into that church was packed, and turning around and seeing you guys all sitting on the row, it just shattered my heart, man, in a beautiful, in the most beautiful way. It was a huge gift to me, man.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:41Speaker 02

  It used to be.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's been absolutely incredible. Yep, I could go on, I could write a book about it, never will. Never talked about it in public before, but the only reason I'm saying that is not to brag, but just to say, because it's not anything, you know, I've just been the beneficiary of it. But I think it's worth saying it out loud, that like, in some sense, it's, it's different, obviously totally different for marriage, but it, it's the same in the sense that it's the product of a covenant, of a promise.

• 1:42:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  To other people that you're just gonna abide by. And like, when you have like a six month old, and your buddies are like, you know, this year we're meeting in Barbados, or wherever we're meeting, Hartford, Connecticut, and your wife is like, what?

• 1:42:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  You know, come on now, you've got three kids and breastfeeding.

• 1:42:31Speaker 02

  It costs you something to be there.

• 1:42:33Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 1:42:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:34Speaker 01

  And you, you say.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  Costs them something for us to be there.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  A lot, a lot.

• 1:42:37Speaker 02

  And I think.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  They've paid up many times. All five of them support it, because they see its fruits. But, but to say to your wife, I'm, I'm sorry, this is a commitment that I made. And she's like, and you never want to make your wife mad, especially when she just bore your child. And, and you do it. And like that, so it does take some sacrifice, not small sacrifice.

• 1:42:58Speaker 02

  No, tremendous. And it's so essential, but the, the dividends are so exponentially more. I mean, going back to what we're saying, like the importance of male relationship in that is, the problem is, you know, in the same way, we talked about pornography or addiction, one of the things is, is it pushes you into isolation, like isolation's a bad thing.

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:18Speaker 02

  And for us as men, as masculine beings, you, you lose perspective on your own masculinity and your own sense of self, and your own role as a husband, and your own role as a father. And it's essential that you have good, healthy men that can serve as mirrors and reflect, and just kind of play catch with you a little bit on these ideas.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:43:42Speaker 02

  Or you, you get in your own one man echo chamber, and you start feeling crazy, then you start feeling ashamed, I'm not doing this right, or I don't know. And then you start living out a caricature of what you think you should be versus what you kind of really are. And the next thing you know, you want to talk about like, how do marriage problems start? Like men, you know, there's a great spot, a great place. And for, I think, having those healthy relationships for men, certainly for me, has done a tremendous amount of helping me have a healthy marriage, because it's helped me regulate my sense of self and like, and also just like my sense of, my vain sense of self.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  I got famous in my twenties. I didn't expect to be famous, I got famous, it's been.

• 1:44:25Speaker 02

  I would not have handled that well in my twenties.

• 1:44:27Speaker 01

  Well, I don't think, I don't think I did, but if it hadn't been for you guys, I think I would have been totally off the deep end, completely off the deep end, and.

• 1:44:36Speaker 02

  And our wives.

• 1:44:37Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:44:38Speaker 02

  We marry good women.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. But, you know, I know a lot of married men who, your buddies are a little different from your wife, because your wife is.

• 1:44:47Speaker 02

  Thankfully.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  No, I think it's harder for your wife to be like, oh, stop it. But you go see your buddies, and you're like, who's the cable television show? And they're like, cable television? They don't care at all.

• 1:45:00Speaker 02

  This is true.

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  It's so good.

• 1:45:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  So important, it's so.

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  And I think what I, you know, I think this, this was kind of baked into the cake with us, because I mean, we met when we were 17 or whatever.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:45:12Speaker 02

  Right? And met, you know, we were very unimpressive at that time. Not that we're very impressive now.

• 1:45:18Speaker 01

  Right, that's true.

• 1:45:19Speaker 02

  But what happens is, is that, and I think one of the values of this friendship, and I think it's values of any male, if I could just elevate this one aspect of it. Is that we love each other and we respect each other, but we're not overly impressed with each other.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  This might be hard for people to understand, but like, when we get together, we will rag on, you know, we will bust each other's chops in a way that only people that have that kind of relationship can do, right?

• 1:45:46Speaker 01

  That's the beauty of it.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, you, you, we, you know, lovingly humiliate one another.

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  Continuously.

• 1:45:50Speaker 02

  Continuously, yes. And so, but I think there's, there's a huge value to that. And so, for male relationship, we're, what I'm talking about, I'm not, it doesn't have to be some giant therapy session, it just has to be men that see you, that are, that are, have the ability and willingness to speak that truth into you, and say, you know, no dude, you're not all that, or.

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  Dude, about 10 years ago, I was, you know, I decide, one of my children's like, you gotta get off nicotine. And I was like, I knew that was, it was, obviously it's wrong to get off nicotine.

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  When you get nicotine?

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  So I get bullied by this.

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  You love nicotine more than anything else.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  I really do, always have. But anyway, this one child's like, it's bad for you, okay, which it's not. But anyway, I get off nicotine, and immediately go crazy and get fat. And I kind of knew that I was crazy, but I didn't quite realize how fat I was, because no one in my world said one word to me about it. And I was like, man, I think my pants shrunk, whatever. We go skiing, and I'll never forget it, we're on the, we get off the tram in Jackson, Wyoming, and, you know, the five of us, whatever, we're skiing. One of us lives out there, and so, anyway, I get off, and I'm with, one of them turns to me, goes, dude, you're fat. And I was like, I don't think I'm fat, what? He goes, look at you, you're fat, it's disgusting. And I was like, I'm not fat.

• 1:47:07Speaker 02

  You've got your own weather system, man.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  I'm on TV every day, I don't think, someone tell me if I was fat. He goes, dude, you're fat.

• 1:47:16Speaker 02

  Someone is telling you.

• 1:47:19Speaker 02

  And uh, I remember this.

• 1:47:20Speaker 01

  I, I went and bought a tin of Copenhagen it that night and immediately, you know, lost some of the weight. But the point is, I was the only person who would tell me that.

• 1:47:30Speaker 02

  And such as so gently too.

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  I think everybody else noticed. I mean, obviously everyone else knows, but not one person said one word.

• 1:47:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. But you know, uh, do you know why he did that? Going back to use that phrase.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  So grateful.

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  Earned the right.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 1:47:45Speaker 02

  He was a saint. Cause you knew, you knew he loves you, right? And he knew, you knew he cared and you knew.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Godfather to my son. Yes. No, I know. No.

• 1:47:53Speaker 02

  I know you're talking about.

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've met him.

• 1:47:56Speaker 02

  He's kind of fat too.

• 1:47:58Speaker 01

  I agree. Um, anyway, yeah, what an incredible blessing. And I hope this, this conversation doesn't make other people feel, well, I don't know. It's just true. And so I'm glad we.

• 1:48:08Speaker 02

  It is true. I say that. I think, I hope other people hear it. They hear this as an invitation.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:48:15Speaker 02

  They, that whether you're young or especially young people, like lock in, man, find your, find your, find your, you know, your, your mat carriers.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  Find your mat carriers, man. And uh, cause you're going to need them. Cause you're going to, cause one day you're going to be carrying that, the mat for that guy. But I promise you, your day is coming where you're going to be on the mat and you're not going to be able to get up and they're going to need to carry you to where you need to be.

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  Boy, that is real.

• 1:48:38Speaker 02

  And it is true. It is true. It is true. As sure as I'm sitting here. And for people that are older, I don't care how old they are, there are men that are in, if you don't go to a church or you own a place where people can, can do that, that then you don't have a community, then either look deeper in your church or find another one, because it is so essential and it's so available.

• 1:49:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:49:01Speaker 02

  And it just is. And it just, it, it just takes the risk of, of being able to step in and a willingness to just tell the truth. And also to be a willingness to be the kind of person that can step in and hear someone else's, as they tell you the truth about their life and you love them anyway. Whether it's said graciously or they, you know, are telling you you're fat in a very unceremonious way. But it's done with love. And I, I just think it's, it's, I, I see, I hear it. I just, I, I, I say that as an invitation, man. I think it's, it's good.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  Well, I, I hope it is. Cause it's one of the most important things I've ever done. After my marriage, the most important thing. So, um, last question, and I, I think it's something I think about a lot, but your answer, when I asked you, what would you say to someone, to anyone who was thinking, well, maybe I'm trans. I thought your answer was, was wonderful because you approached the person with love. So I want to ask a related question about something that's a kind of trend now among people who are really hurting, some of whom I, I think are wonderful people, veterans. And it's the use of like very, very heavy duty hallucinogens, famously ayahuasca, but there are a bunch of ibogaine, there are a bunch of them.

• 1:50:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  To heal them. And, and the reason that I've never really talked about it is because I want to approach it with that same spirit. Cause these are like some of the best people I know. And also some of the most hurting people, and they've done what they were asked to do. In some cases it meant killing other people and they've been deeply damaged by it. That's my read. We spend a lot of time talking about how bad it is to be killed. I think we spend almost no time talking about how bad it is for someone to kill. But it is bad. And I know a lot of people who've done it and it's hurt every one of them. So in that pain or out of that pain, many of them go to hallucinogens, very heavy duty hallucinogens. And I should just be totally honest. I've used hallucinogens as a child

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  and I was totally convinced like, that's not for me. That's bad. I was afraid of it.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  I did it a lot and I was really afraid of it. I'm very opposed to it, but I want to be open minded and loving because I know that they are suffering so much. So that's the preamble. And my question is, what, what's your view of that?

• 1:51:21Speaker 02

  Taking that in pieces, I would say, first of all, you know, medically speaking, like I, you know, I don't know. Like the, I know, I've got people that I know that had, uh, medication resistant depression that had done experimental, but medically directed use of certain things that really helped them and with their depressions and things like that. But I don't know enough to speak about that. Um, I would say to someone who's suffering from a PTSD to that level of what you're talking about, first of all, in the same way, uh, uh, what would I say? I wouldn't say much in the beginning, because I think

• 1:52:00Speaker 02

  there's just so, the, the trauma of that is something they never asked for. And if I could distill it down, you know, the, the, here's the great tragedy of it is I would say, is, is not your fault. Like it's not your fault in the sense that, you know, you may have done things, but to have those experiences and you be thrust into a context where it's unwinnable, where you're being, you know, you're in war or whatever the context may be. And I know they're nuanced and varied, but like, it's not your fault that you have, you bear the, the sort of intellectual or not, or the psychiatric wounds. And those are real. Like those are neuropathways that are like legitimately carved, right? So I

• 1:52:45Speaker 02

  don't wink at that. Like it's a real thing. PTSD is a real medical reality. Um, it's not your fault, comma, but sadly, and this is the tiering of it's now your responsibility. So now what are you going to do? How do you choose to step in these directions? And in sofar as, you know, there's a range of treatments. I'm not an expert on that. So I'm not going to speak to that. But as far as like hallucinogens and you say ayahuasca or DMT or.

• 1:53:10Speaker 01

  Where all of a sudden you are meeting figures in the spiritual realm.

• 1:53:14Speaker 02

  This is where I, this is where I.

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  That's what I'm specifically talking about.

• 1:53:17Speaker 02

  This is where I have strong opinions. And my strong opinion is that much like I talked about earlier, you know, we, we live on, uh, you know, we live on a side of a curtain. There's a, there's a, and there are thin places, as you know, like we talk about when I ministered to someone by their bedside is that it's a thin place. You can almost feel that, that they're crossing over. And that's what the Celtics would call a thin place. It's like, yeah, the heaven and earth or the divine or the supernatural, the unseen realm and the seen realm are beginning to touch, right? And.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  That's real.

• 1:53:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And what Jesus says in John 10, he says that, you know, there, there is that inside and there is that, but I'm the gate. And if you want to go into this, that you want to go through the unseen realm where it produces this life and God, there's a way to do this and it's through me. I'm the gate. And if you try to climb over the walls and you try to get in any other way, hmm, you're doing that. Guess what? You're a robber and you're a thief and you're trying to gain the things of God without God. And you're trying to gain access to the divine and the unseen and all the, all, you want the cookies in the cookie jar, but you don't, but you're not going through the gate. And, uh, what

• 1:54:33Speaker 02

  I would say is you read stories about DMT and you read people and I, you know, I've never done it. I don't, I, I, uh, but I know people that have dabbled in that quite a bit. And I know that when you hear encounters that I've, I've crossed over and I've had this, this encounter with all these beings. And there was this, a purple woman that I talked to and I developed this relationship. It was like I was there for years, but I was almost there for 10 minutes. And then somebody else goes and has the same trip and goes in and he comes back and says, Hey, I met a purple woman who knew your name and was asking about you. Which that's documented reality.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  I know people that, many people.

• 1:55:10Speaker 02

  Right. So what I'm telling you is there, this isn't just some psychiatric mind bending exercise. You're actually crossing, you're, you're crawling, you're not going through the gate. You're crawling, crawling over the fence.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  But into a real paddock.

• 1:55:23Speaker 02

  Into a real, into a real place that is demonic. And those are, you are, you are encountering, uh, I think it's a demonic experience. And I think it's a dangerous one because what's so dangerous about it, and this is.

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  It's not your imagination. That's what you're saying.

• 1:55:38Speaker 02

  It's not your imagination. So when Jesus, or you read in, you know, the book of Deuteronomy or another place that was says, you don't practice necromancy, don't do magic, don't get involved in, you know, tarot cards or all that kind of stuff. What he's not saying is there's no power there. What he's saying is actually the reason it's a warning is there's a lot of, there's a lot going on over there. And it's, but it's really dangerous and it's not of God. It's not of Jesus and it's dangerous and it will, and what's so dangerous about it is that it, the people that encounter this, generally speaking, and people, this isn't, you know, for as many people, there are different experiences. But when people step into those places and they have these encounters, they have these,

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

  this profound sense of enlightenment. They feel special. They feel seen. They feel good. They feel, oh, and it's just like, it's like a taste they get. It's like the crack dealer giving the taste on the playground. And then the kid just gets deeper and deeper and they, what they think is giving them life is really hollowing them out from the inside. And I think what's happening in those experiences is the deeper you go and you, you will one day wake up and discover that you have been dabbling in, in, in a demonic realm that, that promised you life, but is an insight and progression and enlightenment, but it

• 1:57:00Speaker 02

  has really been hollowing you out from the inside, taking you away from the source of light, taking you away from the source of forgiveness, of redemption that is only in Jesus. And, uh, you know, distorting the image in which you were created. And I think it's a dangerous place. And I would, I, that scares me for people that do that. Now, where people, especially those, like I have a lot of compassion for people like ibogaine or people that are in PTSD. And again, if there's a medical shallow into that pool that has some that's not, you know, running through the, you know, the unseen realm and so, I mean, I, you know, I don't know. But if there's, but people that do that record relation,

• 1:57:41Speaker 02

  they go, they're on the some spiritual safari to go into that place. I'm like, man, I was, I would, I would caution you against that. There, that's one place you don't need to go to know you don't want to be there.

• 1:57:54Speaker 01

  Amen. Reverend Billy Servini, a phrase I never get tired of using.

• 1:58:00Speaker 02

  The one that still feels ironic.

• 1:58:03Speaker 01

  God bless you.

• 1:58:03Speaker 02

  God bless you, man. I love you.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  Good to see you.