Pod Insights The Tucker Carlson Show The Private Equity Veterinary Scam Making You Poorer and Killing Your Pets About this episode Why’s it suddenly so expensive to take your dog to the vet? Here’s a hint: private equity. Joe Spector on the solution.
(00:00) Why Is Veterinary Care So Expensive?
(02:55) The Private Equity Firms Swallowing Small Businesses
(23:14) The AVMA Cartel Pushing Lobbying Politicians
(27:13) The Mass Veterinarian Shortage
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai/spotify.
0:31 Tucker Carlson? Joe, thank you for doing this. I don't think I've ever, probably have, I don't remember. I don't think I've ever interviewed an advertiser. And so I just want to be clear about why I'm doing this interview. So I called you several months ago to ask you if you wanted to advertise on our show, because you have a pet-related company. I love dogs. I've got a dog right there. And we had this conversation that was like so unbelievably interesting, so interesting that I haven't stopped thinking about it. So that's, I just want to be fully transparent about why I asked you to come. Thank you for doing it. So here's, here's my real question. Veterinary care, anyone who owns a dog or cat knows a lot about it. There's no backstop, there's no health insurance, whatever.
1:16 Tucker Carlson? And you'll pay anything because...
1:19 Speaker 02 It's your pet.
1:19 Tucker Carlson? It's right. It's a member of your family and it's getting really, really expensive. So can you just give us the overview? Why is it so expensive to say, bring your dog in for his shots? Like, how does this system work?
1:31 Speaker 02 Yep. Just to put a pin in that veterinary care has grown 2X the rate of inflation. So we talk about inflation.
1:40 Tucker Carlson? The cost of?
1:41 Speaker 02 Yeah. So the inflation is already high.
1:44 Tucker Carlson? Oh, yeah.
1:44 Speaker 02 Veterinary inflation is double. It's like 2X. That's how crazy it is. So something that was $50 is literally $100 a year later.
1:55 Tucker Carlson? Why?
1:57 Speaker 02 There's a number of factors. One, there's been a lot of private equity consolidation in this space.
2:03 Tucker Carlson? I could have guessed that.
2:04 Speaker 02 Follow the money. So, you know, that just means less supply and the demand's only growing. That's one big factor. The other factor is because it's a cash pay industry, there's really no insurance.
2:19 Tucker Carlson? Right.
2:19 Speaker 02 Veterinarians, and you'll read this in trade magazines, they build their business on production, which is basically selling you more stuff.
2:29 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
2:30 Speaker 02 So a third of their revenue is dependent on you getting a blood exam, getting an X-ray, et cetera. And I think to be clear, like, the rank and file veterinarians are doing this only because they love pets. I think what's happening is it's the few business owners, and ultimately, like I said, private equity, that are simply raising prices for something that you're gonna pay for no matter what.
2:58 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
2:59 Speaker 02 And it's scaring people. We, so at Dutch, my company, 50% of our customers say they haven't been to a vet in three years or more.
3:10 Tucker Carlson? Oh, I bet.
3:11 Speaker 02 People are scared that the moment they enter a vet's office, they have a $500 bill or more.
3:17 Tucker Carlson? Literally. So can, let's just back up and go through these one by one. So the first is private equity. What, so private equity buys, the model in general, buys small businesses, independent businesses, links them together for efficiencies, for cost savings, right? This is the idea. This is what they tell you. So how many, do you have any sense of how many vets are owned by private equity now?
3:43 Speaker 02 I think it's like, almost, it's like a third to a half, probably.
3:47 Tucker Carlson? Wow. Okay, so they've been scooping them up?
3:49 Speaker 02 Oh, massively. In fact, this, there's been, there's like, two major companies that are doing it that, there was a lawsuit that they're creating a monopoly that, that's, that was going around.
4:03 Tucker Carlson? So they'll go to owners of?
4:06 Speaker 02 Of brick and more, mom and pop shops.
4:08 Tucker Carlson? Yeah, mom and pops, and they'll just, they'll, and they're doing this with dentists as well, and HVAC, and like, basically every small business in America. And and they'll buy just a whole bunch of them.
4:18 Speaker 02 Exactly, yeah.
4:19 Tucker Carlson? And then become like regional.
4:20 Speaker 02 Yep. And then they'll just raise the prices.
4:23 Tucker Carlson? Does the care get better?
4:25 Speaker 02 No, the care gets worse because you're no longer bringing the, they're doing enough. I don't want to like say nothing, but there's really no like modernization of equipment or faster care. It's the same thing. They just literally raise the price.
4:45 Tucker Carlson? Huh. Um, and then when they
4:47 Speaker 02 It sucks. It's like super unfair.
4:50 Tucker Carlson? No, well, I mean, I, you know, I'm willing to believe there are examples of private equity doing what it says it does, which is, you know, to come in and make the business better, better for its customers, better for its owners, better for its employees. I've never seen that.
5:04 Speaker 02 No.
5:05 Tucker Carlson? Ever in any sector, but I, I believe there must be some time where that happened.
5:09 Speaker 02 My old veterinarian, I switched to, and I asked for my, um, which is owned by private equity. And I asked for my medical records. It was 50 pages of PDF with scribble notes. I mean, there's no way that there's any thing that you could ever find what's there. So I don't believe, I've not seen any sort of better care for pets as a result at all.
5:36 Tucker Carlson? Yeah. Um, but greater returns for the investors in private for the
5:40 Speaker 02 Yep, totally.
5:41 Tucker Carlson? So, um, okay. So how do they, can you be specific about how they raise the prices? You suggested there's an incentive for veterinary offices to hike the price of annual exams and shots?
5:55 Speaker 02 Annual exams, but they'll sell you more stuff too. So they'll say, you know what? Your dog needs teeth cleaning and so we need to put him under anesthesia. And that's going to be like a $5,000 bill for teeth cleaning, which
6:10 Tucker Carlson? $5,000?
6:11 Speaker 02 Yes.
6:12 Tucker Carlson? I've had a lot of dogs, dozens and dozens of dogs. I've got five at my house right now and I don't think I've ever had a dog's teeth cleaned.
6:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly.
6:19 Tucker Carlson? And my dogs live a long time, like 14.
6:21 Speaker 02 Exactly. And the thing is you're there and you feel horrible because you only want to do what's best for your pet. But what happens is they have a list of all the services they want to sell to you. And that's going to be one of them. Um, and you feel horrible that you Even have to think about the decision.
6:41 Tucker Carlson? Of course.
6:43 Speaker 02 But you're and but it's like, that's a lot of money and not, I mean, most people don't have $5,000 lying around the house.
6:49 Tucker Carlson? Putting your dog under anesthesia is not a small thing. I mean, dogs die, people die under anesthesia. You're suspending life in a living thing.
6:58 Speaker 02 Totally. Yeah. So I think what happens is it's the list of services that they'll try to sell you and make you feel horrible that you don't care about your dog if you don't buy from this menu.
7:12 Tucker Carlson? There's so much emotional leverage. People are so intense about their animals.
7:17 Speaker 02 Yes.
7:18 Tucker Carlson? Not in my house. We have, you know, critical distance.
7:22 Tucker Carlson? You know, you'd do anything. You'd sell your car. I mean, I would. And so they they have a lot of power when they're upselling.
7:30 Speaker 02 Yes, totally.
7:33 Tucker Carlson? Do you? It seems like the incentives would produce like actually bad outcomes where your dog or cat is getting treatments they don't need, and that might be counterproductive.
7:44 Speaker 02 Well, I think what happens is people just stop going to the vet at all. That, I mean, that's what we've seen is that there's just a whole, there's tens of millions of dogs that never go to the veterinarian. At Dutch, 50% don't go to the vet. Haven't been to the vet in years. And it's because they don't want to, they don't want to feel bad for not buying extra services for their dog.
8:11 Tucker Carlson? That's amazing. What about all the shot? There are a lot of shots and they're very expensive.
8:15 Speaker 02 Definitely. There's vaccines, but even vaccines, like you should, I mean, as we have a Dutch try to kind of, so telemedicine can do vaccines, but there's definitely lower cost clinics that will do vaccines for $50, whereas in person it'll cost you $150 to $200 for the same thing.
8:38 Tucker Carlson? For a shot?
8:39 Speaker 02 Yes.
8:39 Tucker Carlson? How? Why would it cost 200 bucks for a shot?
8:42 Speaker 02 Well, they'll say, well, I have to pay for rent and I have to pay for stat. I mean, they'll say there's like all this upkeep that the shot, you know, includes.
8:53 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
8:53 Speaker 02 But it's baloney. It's obvious. That goes back to private equity raising prices and knowing the people. There's some people who will still pay for it.
9:02 Tucker Carlson? So the profile of the vets that I've dealt with in the past 20 years have really, really changed. It's a female industry now.
9:07 Speaker 02 Yes.
9:08 Tucker Carlson? Which I think is good, just to be honest. I feel like there are really a lot of dog lovers.
9:12 Speaker 02 Yeah.
9:12 Tucker Carlson? Not all. You get hard cases among vets, but most vets I know just really love animals.
9:17 Speaker 02 Yes.
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12:33 Tucker Carlson? And so what do they think of all of this?
12:36 Speaker 02 So what's interesting is that when it comes to just Dutch and telemedicine, we get hundreds of applications from people who wanna, who want to do telemedicine. And actually, to this point that it's female, telemedicine allows them to have a work from home, flexible schedule, which they love.
12:56 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
12:57 Speaker 02 The main industry association, the AVMA, has basically made these vets feel that if they do telemedicine, the FBI will show up at their house.
13:08 Tucker Carlson? What?
13:09 Speaker 02 It has scared them to death from doing telemedicine. To death. And it's because it's, again, it's comprised of these self-serving, financially interested individuals who run the organization. But they have completely scared veterinarians from doing telemedicine whatsoever.
13:29 Tucker Carlson? Why would the FBI show up at a vet's house?
13:33 Speaker 02 What they'll say, and again, like, I think this is why I want your listeners to know this. It's just so insane. They will say that the federal law requires, it requires you to have a physical exam, no matter what. Like, no matter if it's an opinion, it's a rash, it's a quick question, they'll say that the FDA website requires a physical exam, which it doesn't. But in every conference, in every newsletter, they'll say, oh, well, we asked the FDA and they said that you need a physical exam. So if you violate this, you might go to jail.
14:16 Speaker 02 That's what they'll say at every conference for years now. And they'll vilify me and Dutch. And they'll say, this guy is gonna hurt your dog. If there's telemedicine, millions of dogs will die, is the headline.
14:32 Tucker Carlson? I've started to laugh. I mean, that's
14:33 Speaker 02 It's like, obviously not true.
14:35 Tucker Carlson? Emotional blackmail.
14:37 Speaker 02 Yeah. So one of the main, so
14:39 Tucker Carlson? Buy this book or we'll shoot this dog. I mean, it really, yeah. Millions of dogs would die. Did it really say that?
14:47 Speaker 02 Yeah. Well, again, so this is what they'll say at a conference. What I've been doing now is I've been working with the ASPCA and a huge coalition of shelter organizations, because they're the ones that get the brunt of it. Because now millions of dogs actually also get surrendered because their owners can't care for them.
15:12 Tucker Carlson? Because they can't afford veterinary
15:13 Speaker 02 Because they can't afford veterinary care. Yes.
15:15 Tucker Carlson? Come on.
15:16 Speaker 02 I'm telling you.
15:17 Tucker Carlson? People abandon their dog?
15:19 Speaker 02 Yes.
15:20 Tucker Carlson? Oh, man.
15:21 Speaker 02 It, I know, it gives me chills.
15:22 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
15:23 Speaker 02 It fucking sucks.
15:24 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
15:25 Speaker 02 Um, so
15:29 Speaker 02 the only way this can change is at the state level. And we've been working, so in Florida, it took us four legislative sessions to allow telemedicine. And, and all it does is all the law will say is that the veterinarian can use their judgment to make a decision.
15:46 Tucker Carlson? But may I just ask you a foundational question? Why is the state involved in what kind of medical care you give your dog?
15:52 Speaker 02 Just because healthcare is regulated at the state level.
15:55 Tucker Carlson? This is veterinary care.
15:56 Speaker 02 And that, I mean, and then
15:57 Tucker Carlson? But you have dominion over your dog. I mean, right? It's so weird that they feel like some state legislator feels like he has more power over your dog who sleeps in your, it was your dog than you do. Like, what is that?
16:15 Speaker 02 Hmm, that, that's the system we live in. But actually, I will tell you this. Most legislators, once we tell them that this is a law that you need to help us with, there, most of them are completely on board. They don't, they're like, we have human healthcare. And this, I'd like, a lot of them will say, I didn't even know this was an, like you said, I didn't even know this was an issue.
16:40 Tucker Carlson? I didn't.
16:41 Speaker 02 This is dumb. So where it doesn't work is when the AVMA or a lot of these state lobby groups who have hundreds of millions of dollars in annual budgets.
16:56 Speaker 02 If they've lined a politician's pocket, then that's where we will have trouble in those states.
17:02 Tucker Carlson? Taking money from the veterinary lobby.
17:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:05 Tucker Carlson? There are a lot of dark lobbies. We only pay attention to a couple of them, but there are so many.
17:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:12 Tucker Carlson? So can you just quickly tell me how that works? So the AVMA is the American Veterinary Medicine Association?
17:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, medical association.
17:18 Tucker Carlson? Medical association. And why do they have an interest in preventing telehealth for animals?
17:26 Speaker 02 There's one reason that they'll say, and then there's one reason that they'll say behind closed doors. So what they'll say in public is that they'll say telemedicine is gonna, is gonna harm dogs, lead to millions of dogs dying. But what they'll say at the hearing behind closed doors, it's purely financial. They think that it's an either or choice, that if you have telemedicine, people will no longer go to the vet and their brick and mortar business is gonna die. That's not true.
17:58 Tucker Carlson? Oh, so they're just preserving the monopoly?
18:01 Speaker 02 Yeah, they're preserving the monopoly.
18:02 Tucker Carlson? It's just like always. Most regulation exists to preserve existing monopolies.
18:06 Speaker 02 Yes, exactly.
18:07 Tucker Carlson? That's true in tech, it's true in manufacturing, it's true in the nicotine business, it's true in veterinary care. Wow. I should have known that. Duh. Millions of dogs will die.
18:20 Speaker 02 Like who has died? No one.
18:22 Tucker Carlson? Well, also if people aren't even bringing their dogs to the vet because it's too expensive, how is that good?
18:27 Speaker 02 Exactly. Dogs are getting zero care and you will have these people say that they will prefer that. Then they'll, they'll prefer the status quo, the industry association will say they'll prefer the status quo than allow telemedicine. And by the way, it's not an either or choice. It's not like, oh, I have a video call and now I no longer get vaccines at the vet. You know, like we have, again, human healthcare. We still go to our brick and mortar annual checkup, whatever. And then if we have a issue at night, we, we don't have to go to emergency.
19:10 Tucker Carlson? If you've got porcupine quills in your dog's throat or, you know, cuts his leg on barbed wire, you have to go. To a surgeon.
19:16 Speaker 02 That's right. But if he has a rash that and you just wanna know, like, is it like, what is this? Why do you have to go to urgent care when you can just show, again, the dogs in the comfort of their home? And you use your phone and show a video of their paw?
19:33 Tucker Carlson? Right.
19:33 Speaker 02 Like, why do you have to drag that?
19:36 Tucker Carlson? And that's right. And for example, we get porcupine quills on our dogs all the time, a lot. And I wish I could say my dogs are smart enough not to try and eat porcupines, but they're not. And every year I have to take the quills out, which is takes like four hours. But I do it myself because, well, because I know how, but also because my dogs don't like to go to the vet at all. And it smells like death and they can smell it.
20:00 Speaker 02 Yep, mine do too.
20:01 Tucker Carlson? Dogs are euthanized there, they know that. And so we do everything we can to prevent physical visits. Because the dogs are panicked. And I think most people with dogs know this.
20:12 Speaker 02 Yes.
20:13 Tucker Carlson? And I think cats feel the same way.
20:15 Speaker 02 Cats are even worse.
20:16 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
20:16 Speaker 02 Because to corral a cat.
20:18 Tucker Carlson? Difficult, difficult, difficult. So anything, as someone, if you love animals, you want to, you want care for them, of course, but you want to keep them out of the physical space if you can.
20:30 Speaker 02 Yep. They're in the comfort of their home.
20:33 Tucker Carlson? Exactly.
20:34 Speaker 02 Um, one of the things we see a lot is behavior and anxiety cases. And that's even more so why they should be treated from home because the dog is in their natural environment. You're only making their situation worse by forcing them to this place they don't like. And then a lot of the behavior modification that happens, telemedicine is perfect for that because you can have these regular conversations and for a fraction of the price. Just to give you context, by the way, so Dutch, it's a less than a hundred dollars for a year of care.
21:15 Speaker 02 If you went every month, you'd pay a hundred bucks a month, you'd pay like over a thousand dollars to treat your dog. And oftentimes when you have anxiety, you kind of need to have those regular check-ins. And we had a story recently of of this guy who had an aggressive dog. He's been on Dutch for two years. And the dog went from crazy aggressive to now he has two buddies. Like his life has changed.
21:45 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
21:45 Speaker 02 And there's no way in the world this owner could have had the money or the time if Dutch wasn't around to change this dog's life.
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24:11 Tucker Carlson? So, how does it work exactly? I don't understand the terms. So it's a hundred bucks? Like, tell me how it works. What's the alternative?
24:21 Speaker 02 So, with Dutch, you go to dutch.com. You sign up. It's a membership service. It's a hundred dollars for a year of care. So for a year, you can call a vet for up to five pets. And we have vets available same day. So, you know, most of the appointments, by the way, are happening at night. When the, even if you have a vet, the vet's closed.
24:46 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
24:47 Speaker 02 And so you have a video call. Most calls happen on people's phones. You talk to a local vet in your state, and they'll, you know, you're talking to a professional. And so they'll diagnose.
25:00 Tucker Carlson? You're talking to a veterinarian?
25:01 Speaker 02 Yeah, you're talking to a vet. You always talk to a veterinarian, a human being. And 90% of the time, and we've been doing this now for five years, 90% of the time, they're able to address the issue over video.
25:15 Tucker Carlson? Amazing. And so, does that include vaccines? Or what does that include?
25:23 Speaker 02 It includes the cost. So vaccines, you have to do in person. And we'll recommend a local clinic if that's what you need. But if you, if you need medication, we have pharmacy partners who can ship that to you. You can also go to a pharmacy of your choice. You don't care. But it includes kind of any of the follow-up messages, chats with the vet. So you don't feel like you're nickel and dimed if I have another question or if I have to follow up a week later. The other thing that's cool about digital first is that everything is documented. So we know automatically when we should follow up for each condition.
26:04 Speaker 02 Or we know that a veterinarian needs to respond, like we have goals, a veterinarian needs to respond within a matter of hours back to the patient if there's a message during the business day. So we can also like really monitor quality metrics to make sure that customers are having a good experience.
26:25 Tucker Carlson? Is this nationwide?
26:27 Speaker 02 It's nationwide, but there are about 20 states that don't allow telemedicine.
26:35 Tucker Carlson? For animals?
26:36 Speaker 02 For animals, yeah.
26:37 Tucker Carlson? What, really?
26:39 Speaker 02 Yep.
26:39 Tucker Carlson? Because of lobbying by brick and order?
26:41 Speaker 02 Exactly. So that's why I-
26:44 Tucker Carlson? Any big states?
26:45 Speaker 02 Any of the big states.
26:48 Speaker 02 Some of the biggest ones like Texas, which is crazy because California allows it, but Texas does not. And we actually had a huge bill this year that literally got killed by the ADMA. And it's all because of money.
27:07 Tucker Carlson? That's wild.
27:09 Speaker 02 Yep.
27:10 Tucker Carlson? So it's, you are not allowed to do, so is there like an underground telehealth? Like, why don't you just ignore the law and do it anyway? Sorry, I shouldn't say that.
27:19 Speaker 02 Kind of. Well, so there's actually, in Texas, there's a court case that is now at the Supreme Court. Where the veterinarian said, well, I'm, it's freedom of speech.
27:32 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
27:32 Speaker 02 I'm just like telling people like how their pets, you know, this is my freedom of speech. So the Fifth Circuit, which is Texas, Louisiana, Missouri, has ruled in his favor. But the Attorney General has filed this as an appeal at the Supreme Court currently.
27:54 Tucker Carlson? Seriously?
27:55 Speaker 02 Yep. What's his name? Greg? Forget his name.
28:01 Tucker Carlson? That's so interesting.
28:02 Speaker 02 Running for Senate.
28:03 Tucker Carlson? So right now it is illegal- For anyone in Texas to call a vet on the phone and just get healthcare on the phone.
28:11 Speaker 02 Yep.
28:13 Speaker 02 According to them, now, there's always, so there's two paths in Texas. There's, any state allows, has an emergency provision if it's a life or death situation. And then, in Texas, again, there's this Fifth Circuit decision that's currently, so there's like, there's sort of this competing situation in Texas where on the one hand, the Fifth Circuit says telemedicine is allowed, but the state regulations still say that it's not allowed.
28:44 Tucker Carlson? I'm pretty sure I could just call up and get like, very serious drugs prescribed through telehealth as an adult.
28:50 Speaker 02 That's right.
28:51 Tucker Carlson? Like, very serious, fully addictive benzodiazepines, for example.
28:55 Speaker 02 Totally.
28:56 Tucker Carlson? You can die from going off them. I mean, this is like, way more, way more addictive than heroin. You can't die going off heroin. You can die going off Xanax, so.
29:04 Speaker 02 It's all about the money.
29:06 Tucker Carlson? But that's totally fine to get that from telehealth.
29:08 Speaker 02 Yes.
29:09 Tucker Carlson? Or amphetamines, no problem. It's like Tijuana, you know, you get whatever you want now, but your dog can't get treatment. Yeah.
29:17 Speaker 02 That's not, it's, it's definitely unfair.
29:20 Tucker Carlson? Well, it's deranged.
29:24 Tucker Carlson? Is that changing? Are you making progress?
29:26 Speaker 02 We're making good progress. So we've changed the laws in Florida, Arizona, Ohio, in a number of states. And this upcoming legislative session, we're lobbying in 12 different states. But definitely, there's a lot of states, I'm sure your listeners live in a lot of those states. And one of the things we did as we launched this website called safepuppies.com.
29:54 Speaker 02 And if you go to safepuppies.com.
29:56 Tucker Carlson? I love your marketing. I mean, if they're saying millions of dogs will die, you should, you know, you're fighting back with safepuppies.com. That wasn't taken?
30:05 Speaker 02 I know, right? Yeah, it wasn't taken. And so, you know, you can go there and send a letter to your local legislator. That's the only way that things will change is at the grassroots level, because we don't have the crazy budget that these trade groups have.
30:23 Tucker Carlson? Can I ask you, what does the AVMA think of private? Equity scooping up all the independent businesses.
30:30 Speaker 02 They're associate, I think they're associated with it.
30:33 Tucker Carlson? They've got no problem with that.
30:36 Speaker 02 I don't think so.
30:37 Tucker Carlson? Prices going up.
30:40 Tucker Carlson? Care declining, that they're totally fine with that. But they're against options.
30:45 Speaker 02 What, so I think again, there's two things what they'll say publicly versus what happens behind closed doors. And I've read, I mean, it's like we live in two different worlds because what they'll say is, like, for example, one reason prices are going up is there's also massive vet shortages. Because the veterinary profession has one of the biggest dropout rates of anyone. And they'll say, and this is just, it's, this is just factually like true if you follow BLS, Bureau of Labor Statistics, but they'll say there's no shortage.
31:26 Speaker 02 Or you'll say, you know, prices are going up and there's like data that shows that. They'll say, no, prices are not going up. So a lot of times when you talk to them, the surveys they put out make are completely nonsensical.
31:44 Tucker Carlson? Right. And there's this bottleneck in veterinary school.
31:48 Speaker 02 Totally. So that's another thing. The AVMA, it's really weird in this industry. And I think I just, again, I'm here because like you shine a light on things and I think a lot of people.
31:59 Tucker Carlson? Well, I care about this topic because I think the relationship between people and animals is just so essential.
32:04 Speaker 02 I know. It sucks. What they're doing. So they, the AVMA controls accreditation for veterinary colleges.
32:17 Speaker 02 Okay. Like this happens in no other, like law schools don't have a trade association decide like who gets to have a law school. Yeah, in this industry, the AVMA controls what is deemed a vet school. And they have chokehold that completely.
32:38 Tucker Carlson? So private equity decides whether you get to be a vet or not? I mean, in effect, if private equity is the single biggest player in this industry, that's bonkers. Why?
32:49 Speaker 02 I mean, it goes back to money. It goes back to when you have less supply, you can charge more and because people are willing to pay more for it.
33:00 Tucker Carlson? So they have an incentive to reduce the number of new veterinarians coming out of school every year?
33:06 Speaker 02 It's like, I hate to draw that line, but I think that's what's happening.
33:10 Tucker Carlson? Well, if it's about money, then it's supply and demand because that's what the market is. And so the fewer vets you have, the higher the prices.
33:17 Speaker 02 Yeah. It like makes, I've, you know, and again, I think I'm a curious person and I try to like, understand like, could it be something else? Is there another reason? Like, why would this? If you have high attrition, you have prices going up, you would think that the way to solve that is to have more veterinarians.
33:39 Tucker Carlson? Yes, of course.
33:41 Speaker 02 And that's just not what they're doing. They've like, literally, I, at this point, know several vet schools that have just stopped developments, you know, gave up because the AVMA basically told them that they're not going to get a license.
33:56 Tucker Carlson? That's crazy.
33:58 Speaker 02 I'm not sure.
33:58 Tucker Carlson? Because there are very relatively few colleges that turn out veterinarians.
34:04 Speaker 02 Oh, there's totally few, like, just think, I can tell you the statistic. There's about one veterinarian for every 3,000 pets in America. For context, the ratio in human healthcare is one to 20.
34:21 Tucker Carlson? No way.
34:22 Speaker 02 The disparity is so huge and the amount of vet schools is so little. Like, we could, we could have, you know, dozens of vet schools pop up and it would still maybe not be enough in the next decade. And like I said, this trade organization is refusing to launch any new schools.
34:43 Tucker Carlson? Well, I mean, that's a cartel. That's cartel behavior.
34:46 Speaker 02 It's very much cartel behavior. And what's crazy is I feel like then this gaslighting happens where I'm painted as the bad guy. And they'll say, this guy Joe, or Dutch, you know, he's just self-interested. He just want, you know, he's the one that wants your money. And I'm like, how is that possible when I'm like, reducing the cost? Like, it doesn't make sense.
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36:59 Speaker 02 Couple of reasons. So, prior to Dutch, I was one of the co-founders of Hims and Hers. And so I helped start that telemedicine journey. And I would say if we back it up even more, we'd have to go back to my experience coming to America and just always, as an immigrant, having to figure things out. When we, my family and I immigrated from the Soviet Union.
37:25 Tucker Carlson? Where?
37:26 Speaker 02 To the Bay Area.
37:27 Tucker Carlson? No, but where in the Soviet Union?
37:29 Speaker 02 From Uzbekistan.
37:30 Tucker Carlson? Uzbekistan?
37:31 Speaker 02 Former, or current separate country at this point.
37:34 Tucker Carlson? Yeah, but then a Soviet Republic?
37:36 Speaker 02 Yep. We...
37:38 Tucker Carlson? What was Uzbekistan like?
37:40 Speaker 02 You know, it's, it's very, it's Muslim majority, but it, I would say secular. And everyone got along, I thought, quite well.
37:54 Speaker 02 And we're Jewish. And I actually didn't even know Jews and Muslims are supposed to not get along. When I, we went to each other's weddings, there's lots of shared history and similarity.
38:07 Tucker Carlson? That's been true, by the way, I'd just say factually, that has been true in various parts of the world over time. You know, not always, of course, there are huge problems, but then other places, there are no problems. And that was one of them.
38:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, so it was, you know, we, we, you know, I mean, I, I had a good childhood. We left everything behind because my dad was almost thrown into a labor camp for having an illegal book, which is just like a regular, I'm sure it's probably maybe a book on your shelf.
38:41 Tucker Carlson? What book was it?
38:42 Speaker 02 It's called Exodus by Leon Yuris.
38:45 Tucker Carlson? No way. Yeah.
38:47 Speaker 02 And it's just a book about...
38:48 Tucker Carlson? It was huge in the 70s, yeah.
38:49 Speaker 02 Fighting for freedom.
38:50 Tucker Carlson? Exactly.
38:51 Speaker 02 I think it's a concept they didn't want you to know about.
38:53 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
38:54 Speaker 02 And we fled, we fled with, I had a hundred bucks and a red suitcase. And we left, lived in Italy in a refugee camp for several months. Eventually got political asylum to come to the United States. And then, you know, lived in low-income housing for a long time.
39:17 Tucker Carlson? In the Bay Area?
39:18 Speaker 02 In the Bay Area.
39:19 Tucker Carlson? What was that like?
39:20 Speaker 02 A couple of things. First... My dad definitely told us that we have to assimilate, that we have to learn the language. He himself, he was a civil engineer and I saw him at first working flea markets, just doing manual labor. And I think it showed me that he would do anything for his family to have a meal on the table. And I think later in life, it showed me, you know, no one's too good to take out the garbage.
39:53 Tucker Carlson? That's right. That is exactly right.
39:55 Speaker 02 And, uh, and just the value of a dollar. I still, I think, you know, I want to make sure my kids have that, but I still think, and I think back to this business. I think that's why when I see things that are so expensive for people, I feel it in my bones because I still know what it's like to not have any money to make difficult decisions. When you only have so many dollars every month.
40:25 Tucker Carlson? What did your dad wind up doing?
40:27 Speaker 02 He ended up going back to being an engineer.
40:29 Tucker Carlson? Wow.
40:29 Speaker 02 He, um, got trained, um, education and, and he found a mentor who took him under his wing. Um, and he became an engineer again.
40:39 Tucker Carlson? Amazing.
40:40 Speaker 02 Yep. They really, yeah. So in so many ways, they, they inspired me.
40:48 Speaker 02 And with that said, there's not much that they knew about America. And so I, I knew that they would love me, but a lot of times I had to figure everything out for myself. I went to college. I paid for college myself. And I think all of these things taught me to be a survivor, taught me to make something out of nothing. And kind of that's, that's led me, that led me to hymns and ultimately that led me to Dutch.
41:20 Tucker Carlson? Were, were you an animal person?
41:23 Speaker 02 We had animals. So in the Soviet Union, tons of animals. So I was definitely grew up with animals, German shepherd.
41:32 Tucker Carlson? Oh, great dogs.
41:33 Speaker 02 Had a black cat. So we had animals up until I was 10 and then we lived in a part in tiny, tiny apartments. And so then we got finally, when I had a family and we had a house, we got, so that's when we got my corgi. And that's kind of how it all happened because I was coming off him's, it was starting to be a big company. I always like smaller companies and when I can actually still create something.
42:05 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
42:06 Speaker 02 And then we got a corgi and started to see the vet bills. And then the kicker was he got into a trail mix and then we had a $2,000 vet bill.
42:19 Tucker Carlson? Trail mix?
42:20 Speaker 02 Yeah, like trail mix had like a couple of M and M's in it.
42:22 Tucker Carlson? Oh, yeah.
42:23 Speaker 02 And that's supposed to be chocolate.
42:24 Tucker Carlson? Not supposed to eat M and M's. Yeah. They like them though.
42:28 Speaker 02 Yeah, I like them.
42:28 Tucker Carlson? Who does? Yeah, right.
42:31 Speaker 02 And.
42:31 Tucker Carlson? Did he get sick?
42:32 Speaker 02 No, but the thing is, and that's the thing, is then I was talking to a veterinarian friend and he said, like, you really didn't have to do, you didn't have to like pump his stomach for like the three M and M's that he ate. And I, so then that's kind of how I started to look around, like, are there any, like, could I have done something else?
42:54 Tucker Carlson? Did, did you pump his stomach?
42:56 Speaker 02 Yes.
42:57 Tucker Carlson? So can I just pause and say, I love how, even if they're misguided, I love how devoted dog owners are to their dogs and cats. I mean, they just like, they'll do anything.
43:06 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'll do anything.
43:07 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
43:07 Speaker 02 Yeah. I'll do anything. And but it, and, and so I think that's when I realized there's really no like other option when it comes to, there's no telemedicine options that I saw. And it, and it goes back to that a lot of times it has to do with the laws. But look, I'm the guy who I figured when him started, it was actually a similar situation. Back five years ago, telemedicine wasn't legal on the human side either. Like, we forget that because it's now so commonplace. But it was also the same thing, and I helped change those laws back then.
43:47 Speaker 02 I think that's kind of why some of these groups are scared of me is because this guy comes from a place where, like, he has nothing to lose. He's only doing, I mean, also, I think it's because I'm doing the right thing. I think they don't like that. And I've done it before. So I think that kind of gives me more confidence that I can do it again. And I don't think that's, because before this, so before Dutch came on the scene, what the shelter groups, for example, that want to telemedicine, what they were doing is talking to the state veterinary boards. Because that's how the, that's a simpler way that this could all change.
44:29 Speaker 02 If the veterinary board at the state, they could just say, "If you want to do telemedicine, do telemedicine, if it's medically appropriate."
44:37 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
44:37 Speaker 02 It could be as simple as that. And so for over 10 years, they were having these conversations. And so that's when I got here, and I'm like, this is doing nothing. So we got to go the legislative route.
44:51 Tucker Carlson? It's so revealing, however. I mean, again, I think they're probably good people with good motives up and down the line. There always are in these systems. But the system itself is so distorted that they don't put the welfare of animals as the top goal. Like, that always has to be the point, right? What's, if you're a veterinary board, the health of animals, that's why you exist.
45:12 Speaker 02 Totally.
45:13 Tucker Carlson? Right?
45:14 Speaker 02 Totally.
45:14 Tucker Carlson? But it doesn't seem like they're thinking that way.
45:16 Speaker 02 Well, again, what they'll say is, "We are thinking of the pets. We think millions of dogs will die with telemedicine."
45:24 Tucker Carlson? How will that happen?
45:26 Speaker 02 They'll, well.
45:29 Speaker 02 Let me tell you, of some of these examples I've seen, they'll say, like, I'll say, the example I used, anxiety, like, I'll say, isn't that great for telemedicine? The dog is in the comfort of their home and you can shoot, they'll say, "Well, what if the dog ate a nail?" You know, if the dog ate a nail, I've been in hearings where this example has happened.
45:49 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
45:50 Speaker 02 "Well, if the dog ate a nail, look, maybe that he's barking because he had a nail and he's in pain because he ate a nail. And so that's why we shouldn't have to..." It's like, are there nails around your house? Why, um, why are we going to use this crazy made up example to deny millions of dogs from having this opportunity to use telemedicine?
46:13 Tucker Carlson? Sure, and if your dog ate a nail, there's still no good reason why you shouldn't start with telemedicine.
46:19 Speaker 02 Exactly, yeah, have that initial call.
46:21 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
46:21 Speaker 02 The vet will walk you through it and then you'll know, do I go to ER or not? Exactly, it's not, it doesn't have to be an either or situation.
46:29 Tucker Carlson? We had a family dog who ate a pin recently.
46:32 Speaker 02 Uh.
46:33 Tucker Carlson? Uh, a needle, you know, a sewing needle. And, um, you know, obviously that's a brick and mortar situation.
46:40 Speaker 02 Yes.
46:40 Tucker Carlson? Um, the dog passed it without any problems, which is kind of, the, the canine digestive tract is a wonder.
46:46 Speaker 02 Wow.
46:47 Tucker Carlson? All kinds of things, mops, pine cones, sewing needles emerge from it. But, um, that, it still would have been worth calling initially, like, why not?
47:00 Speaker 02 Totally, why not? It takes, before Dutch, um, there's a, uh, a poison hotline that's like $75 just for that first call.
47:11 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
47:11 Speaker 02 And you don't even know who, who you're going to get. And that's what people do, because again, if that's what you need to do, that's what you'll do. But there's definitely ways to talk to a human being veterinarian very quickly, even that for much less. And definitely much less than having to spend a thousand dollars in ER. I had a case where my dog, I thought he was having a seizure and I really, I mean, I really freaked out. And I got on Dutch and the vet says he's doing, uh, reverse sneezing.
47:50 Tucker Carlson? Reverse sneezing?
47:51 Speaker 02 Reverse sneezing. I never heard of that in my life. And she showed me videos of reverse sneezing and it looked exactly like what he was going through. And like I said, I was literally about to grab him, drive to ER. And she totally calmed me down and, and made me realize it was completely not that.
48:13 Tucker Carlson? Totally right. That's, oh, what a great example. We just had a dog, we've had a dog eat marijuana in the park. We had a dog, um, eat hallucinogenic mushrooms in the woods. Totally. The dog has been tripping ever since. Those four years ago, the dog is still seeing trails. Um, wonderful dog. Woke up with a dog this morning. Um, but in both cases, um, there really was no treatment at all. And in both cases, those dogs were bundled up and taken to the vet, which did not, not again, I, I love the vet. I'm not against the vet, to be clear, but it didn't help at all because it's just, there's no remedy.
48:50 Speaker 02 Right. There's a time and a place for everything.
48:52 Tucker Carlson? Right.
48:52 Speaker 02 And I think telemedicine is just a part of the overall experience. I don't think anyone's gonna say it needs to replace. The, and, and, and it won't happen because it hasn't happened in human care. But I think it's another option for people to get a peace of mind and to have an option that's way more affordable. And we are seeing so many dogs, like I said, being given up or people who are saying, I don't think I can have a dog in my life.
49:21 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
49:21 Speaker 02 That sucks.
49:22 Tucker Carlson? Well, that's a tragedy, especially people with children need to have dogs, I think.
49:26 Speaker 02 Totally. It's been, yeah, for us, my kids are little Eddie, the corgi. They love him so much.
49:34 Tucker Carlson? Oh, yeah.
49:35 Speaker 02 And it's, it's the best.
49:37 Tucker Carlson? Can I also say it's really good for your immune system to be around dogs?
49:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think I've seen studies that.
49:43 Tucker Carlson? Really?
49:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:46 Tucker Carlson? When our first child, who's 31, came home from the hospital after being born, both of our dogs, our spaniel jumped up and licked the dog, licked the child's in the mouth. Child's never been sick.
49:56 Speaker 02 It's just a fact. Yeah, I think it definitely, I feel like I've seen stuff that Really? Yeah, that you get that immunity, I'm pretty sure.
50:04 Tucker Carlson? We've always, since I was born, we've always, my family's always been committed to that. Like, you gotta have a lot of dogs around and you stay healthy and everyone's been really healthy. I think that matters. Um, so again, I feel a little weird interviewing you because you've advertised on our show and, and all that, but I just, I just felt it so strongly. I feel like this is such a good thing. And I think there are a lot of viewers of this who would agree. And so I just, it was sincere. I really
50:31 Speaker 02 Thank you. Well, I think when you first called me, it was, hey, I like dogs. This makes sense.
50:38 Tucker Carlson? Yeah.
50:39 Speaker 02 And I think I already, I was like, Tucker's gotta know this conspiracy that's happening. Because it's such baloney and it's so unfair. And so few people kind of, like I said, know how monopolistic it is. And I thought that your listeners and you could help us because I think we're the Goliath in this fight, or the, right, we're the David Yes. In this fight. And it needs people to understand how crazy the situation is for, both for veterinarians, who, like I said, feel scared to do telemedicine, as well as for pet owners who can't afford it.
51:22 Speaker 02 And it all has to do with these trade associations who are keeping and using their monopoly power to change, to keep the laws from changing. So I think that whole part, you had no idea was going on.
51:36 Tucker Carlson? I had literally no idea. And again, for us at this age, you know,
51:43 Tucker Carlson? The cost is not the main barrier for us. The barrier is the dog. It's just so much suffering for the dogs to go to the vet. And sometimes there's no choice and I get it. But if we can avoid that, we would just be so thankful.
51:58 Speaker 02 Yep, and your dogs.
51:59 Tucker Carlson? So it's dutch.com.
52:01 Speaker 02 Yep, D U T C H.
52:03 Tucker Carlson? Well, I'm sure I'll be attacked for insider dealing, but it's not. I think you advertise with us no matter what, but I just wanted you to be able to say all of that at length, so I'm grateful that you did.
52:13 Speaker 02 Thank you, yes.
52:14 Tucker Carlson? Joe Spector. Thank you.
52:16 Speaker 02 Thank you.
Previous Gold, Crypto, the Debt Crisis, and How to Survive When the US Needs a Bailout Next Ian Carroll on America’s Deadliest Mass Shooting and Unanswered Questions They Don’t Want You to Ask Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
