Matt Walsh Responds to Demands to Disavow His Allies, and How to Resolve the Right-Wing Civil War

A civil war is consuming the American right. Matt Walsh may be the only person with a foot on both sides. What’s that like? (00:00) Is There a Civil War Breaking Out on the Right? (05:00) Why Walsh Refuses to Publicly Denounce Anyone (16:49) What Is Leftism? (30:34) Why Walsh Doesn't Care About Israel (43:14) Why Does Randy Fine Think the Death of Children Is Funny? (1:21:35) Why Labels and Name-Calling No Longer Work Paid partnerships with: Beam: Go to https://ShopBeam.com/Tucker use code TUCKER and get up to 40% off Beam's Dream powder. Dutch: Get $50 a year for vet care with Tucker50 at https://dutch.com/tucker Cozy Earth: Slow down and recharge with Cozy Earth's luxurious Bamboo Sheets and Bubble Cuddle Blanket - order by December 12 for Christmas delivery and use code TUCKER at https://cozyearth.com/TUCKER for up to 40% off. Battalion Metals: Shop fair-priced gold and silver. Gain clarity and confidence in your financial future at https://battalionmetals.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tucker Carlson?

  Let me commend you in your tight rope walking skills. I don't check into social media that much, but whenever I do, I'm like, Matt Walsh is an amazing man.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Glad you feel that way, anyway.

• 0:09Tucker Carlson?

  No, I mean, the reason I want to talk to you is there's a lot that I admire about how you've handled this just as a man. Leaving aside our opinions, which I don't even know if they are probably different in some ways, same in other ways, but it's not even about that. You know, everybody involved personally, or most of them involved in all these dramas on the right. And I think the way that you've handled it is just so impressive.

• 0:39Tucker Carlson?

  So, thank you for that. But first, what is going on? There is a civil war, probably not too strong on the right, within the Trump coalition. What is it?

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, this has been, it's been a really awful, I think, for everybody. And a lot of this drama, obviously, goes back, goes back a long way. But I think after Charlie was killed, it's created this kind of, this vacuum. And it's a leadership vacuum, because Charlie was, I think, the best leader we had on the right. And the tragic reality is that a lot of the stuff that we said right after he was killed, turned out not to be true. Stuff that even I said, like, "Well, you killed Charlie, but you made a million more, right?

• 1:53Speaker 01

  You killed Charlie, you killed one Charlie, but now we have a million more Charlies." And I think we said that because we wanted that to be true. And it kind of, for a brief amount of time, it felt that way, because it felt like everybody was sort of unified. And we were coming together and going to the memorial, and everybody was there. And it felt like almost this revival, even this religious revival, and all these things. But then, I think, quickly, reality sets in. And what we have realized and what we've seen is that you killed Charlie... And now Charlie's gone. And when you, that's the thing. When you kill someone, they're, they're gone, at least in this life. And so we, no, we didn't go from one Charlie to a million Charlies.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  We went from one Charlie to zero Charlies. And that's just, that's what happens with, that's why assassinations happen. That's why people do them.

• 2:43Tucker Carlson?

  Cause they work.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Because it works. Yeah. Because they work. And that's, that's been the greatest tragedy about all this. I mean, aside from the human tragedy, that an actual human being lost their, lost his life, and his wife doesn't have a husband, his kids don't have a father. I mean, that's, that's the great tragedy, the human tragedy. But on a, on a kind of national scale, the tragedy is that the, the strategy of assassination has been proven effective, again, as it has all throughout human history. And so now, this guy who was this, I think to an extent that none of us fully realized was the glue that was holding everything together on the right, holding, holding

• 3:29Speaker 01

  this whole crazy coalition together. It turns out it was like one guy who was doing this. And his organization, which, which is, is still around, who I have a lot of respect for TPUSA.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  And I think they're doing the absolute best they can in the face of this. I mean, I have no, I can't even imagine being in the spot that they're in. But he was the leader of the organization. He was the leader of the conservative movement. He was the glue. And, and now he's gone, and it kind of feels like everything's coming undone, to be honest with you. And there's this, so there's all, there's all the fighting that goes, that's, that's going on. And for me personally, and I don't, I don't like to, I don't get into this because first of all, I don't like talking about myself. I like, I like to talk about the things that I think. I talk about my ideas about things all the time. But I don't like talking about myself.

• 4:22Tucker Carlson?

  Good. I like people who don't like talking about themselves. But with that said, I hope you'll talk about yourself.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Well, and also, I don't want to, like, I'm not the victim of any of this at all. But I can only speak from my own experiences. And so my experience is that I'm a, consider myself a personal friend of many of the people on either side of all of these various disputes, including a friend of yours. And so that's a, that's a very complicated position to be in. And then what ends up, what ends up happening? Yes. Yes, and there's, so there's people on either side, and it's really not even two sides, it's, I don't know how many, it's fractured to a million pieces, it feels like.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  And so you've got the people on all the different sides of the different disputes who are shouting at me that, well, I need to denounce so and so, I need to disavow this person, I need to come out and say, you know, that I, not, not just I just, that I disagree, because it's one that we'd have disagreements. But the pressure is beyond it, the pressure is, don't just disagree, but disavow, denounce, condemn. And my answer has been, and not everybody respects it, you don't have to respect it, but my answer is no, I'm not going to do that. And I'm not going to denounce a friend.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  I'm not ever, I'm not ever going to do it, like, ever. Because to me, loyalty is a principle, loyalty is a, so when, when people say, well, you need to stand on your principles and come out and say this or that, well, loyalty is a principle, in my mind. It's one of the most important principles for any person, for, for a man especially. And I think that, you know, people, if you're not, if you're not in the middle of it, and you're kind of on the outside, there are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that you don't know about. And so when I say that somebody is a friend, and I feel personal loyalty to them, that doesn't just mean that, oh, I kind of like that person.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  But for me, anyway, what that means is, this is someone who I know personally. Yes. Who I can call on the phone, who I can share a meal with, I've shared a meal with. And, very often, this is someone who has had my back and supported me in ways that you might not see. Not, not in like a, they've paid me off, but just in a friend way, like, I've got your back, I'm going to support you, I'll defend you, hey, everyone's attacking you for this or that reason, and I got your back, right? And so there are a lot of people who've done that for me. And once you do that for me, then I feel like duty bound that I cannot turn around, I will not turn around and stab you in the back or condemn you.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Like you have my back, I'll have yours. That's, that's, that's the idea.

• 7:20Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, that's the principle you said. You said it's more than an idea, it's more than an emotional response, it's a principle. And you said it's especially important for men. And I, I just agree with you so strongly when you say that, but I haven't taken the time to think through why it's so important to me. Can you explain why that's a principle and why it's especially important for men?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's about, I think it's about I think it's about integrity.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a matter of personal integrity. It's also a matter of of, of having a spine. I mean, if, if, if you denounce someone because, especially again, a friend, because you've got a million people screaming in your face and telling you to do it. Well, how can that possibly be a principled stand? You're doing it to get people to stop yelling at you.

• 8:13Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  That's why you're doing it.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  And, and actually, even if they're not your friend, if people are yelling at, if you do anything because people are yelling at you to do it, then that, that's, that's the wrong, it's, it's the wrong reason to do something.

• 8:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  It's the wrong reason even to do the right thing, really. But with, with a friend, it's, it's the wrong thing. There's also just this basic principle of,

• 8:34Speaker 01

  you know, doing to others as you would have them doing to you.

• 8:37Tucker Carlson?

  And there's something uniquely repulsive about betrayal. And that's what that is. That's why Quisling got executed. That's why Judas is reviled. Betrayal, you know, someone that you're responsible for or are in, in a real relationship with, and then you whip around and undercut the person. That's worse than like an invading army, kind of. It feels that way to me.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  And I think, I think that's right, that's something we all kind of instinctively understand. Uh, which is why everyone has such a low opinion of traitors.

• 9:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  You know, uh, traitors are, are below.

• 9:12Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Dirt in terms of, of how we rank them. Now disagreement, on the other hand, is not betrayal and you can obviously disagree with someone who's a friend. Uh, and if you have a friend who demands that you never disagree with them, well, that's not really a friend.

• 9:29Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  And the relationship you have with them is one of, uh, it's not a friend relationship.

• 9:34Tucker Carlson?

  It's a master slave relationship.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  It's a subservient relationship.

• 9:36Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  And, um, and as men, we should not be in those kinds of relationships either. So you'd certainly disagree with someone. Uh, and so I'm not talking about that. And that's important because even what I'm saying right now, I know that Twitter's gonna have fun with it and they're, and they're gonna say, oh, as you're saying, you can never disagree with a friend. Of course you can disagree with a friend. What I, I'm not talking about that. I'm, I'm talking about what I have personally experienced. Like if I look at my mentions or email, or even people I talk to, uh, of saying denounce, condemn, disavow. Okay? That, that is the, that is very specifically, that's what I've heard. And, uh, that is the thing that I cannot ever do. And maybe I have a more extreme view of that than most

• 10:22Speaker 01

  people. I mean.

• 10:23Tucker Carlson?

  No, you don't. You have the most basic human view. Like what world are we in?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Well, because someone, someone asked me once, they said, uh, we were talking about this and they said, uh, okay, what if someone you're really close with, uh, your brother? What if he murders someone? What if, what if he becomes an ax murderer? Well, then you would disavow him and condemn him, wouldn't you?

• 10:46Tucker Carlson?

  No, I'd get him a fake passport.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Right. Well.

• 10:48Tucker Carlson?

  He's my brother.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I, if my brother was a serial killer and had 40 bodies in his basement, I would not get on camera and disavow or condemn him. I, I would not do it. Now.

• 11:03Tucker Carlson?

  Now, who are you saying this to? Someone actually asked you that question?

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Yes. To be clear, it was not my brother who was trying to make sure I wouldn't, I wouldn't. It wasn't that.

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• 14:16Speaker 01

  But just, just like, because their point is like, yeah, the point they're trying to make, I understand the point is that, yeah, you're loyal to people, but it's to a point and there's, and it could get to a point where it's so, something happens that's so extreme or they've done something that's so extremely wrong that it should, it changes your calculation. And my point is that for me, it doesn't. Now that doesn't mean that, so if my brother, going back to my brother being a serial killer, which by the way, he's not, just to be clear.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  But if you were, I wouldn't defend, I wouldn't get on camera and say, actually it's okay to be a serial killer. And in that case, I mean, you, you know, I can understand the temptation to get him a passport, get him out of town, but I would, I would turn him in because I think that that's justice and also it's best for him and his soul that he, that he faced.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's your problem.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  He faced the consequence, but it wouldn't be easy to do. But even in the, even in the midst of all that, I would not, I would, I wouldn't get up in public and say, I condemn and disavow. It's got the way that I, you know, what happens on Twitter or on social media in general now, when people are, when they, when they, when, when someone does something that upsets everyone, it's like the old, it's like the mid ages where your, your head is in the stocks, right? In the town square and everyone's coming back by and throwing tomatoes at you. And, and I've had my head in the stocks many times with the Twitter mob. I've been in that spot and probably in, in times when I've deserved it because I've said something that really is just stupid. And so everyone is just flinging crap at me and so, okay.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  Been there.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  But my point is that if it's my friend who's got their head in the stock, even if they kind of deserve it because they said something stupid or they're doing something stupid.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  There's no scenario ever where I'm gonna pick up a tomato and throw it at them. Uh, I'm not gonna do that. Now, I might, I might speak to them privately and say, hey, you know what? You kinda had this coming because, you know, you need to, you need to get, you need to get it together. You need to get it in line because what you did was wrong. I'll speak to someone privately and tell them that. And I have done that. If I disagree with a friend and what they're doing, I will tell them that. Um, so that's the basic principle. But again, that's not, that is all different from, uh, disagreement and saying I disagree with this person.

• 16:29Tucker Carlson?

  Of course. This is intuitively obvious, I think, to normal people. What I'm so struck by is how, this doesn't just remind me of like medieval Europe, it reminds me of 2023. This is why Trump got elected. When we say woke or, you know, the crazy left, this is exactly, at least speaking for myself, what I'm talking about. First of all, it's identity politics. It's censorship, the two things I hate in our country. But it's the same impulse to publicly denounce people, to destroy people. And, and really what you're saying when you demand that is, it's not just a breach of loyalty. It's a transfer of loyalty. You're saying you need to be more loyal to me and my ideas

• 17:14Tucker Carlson?

  or the mob than you are to your own friends. It's like demanding control of your loyalty. And my view has always been, I'm an adult man. I'll decide who I like and who I don't. That's up to me. You're trying to strip me of my autonomy, of my humanity. Like, no thanks. And that's why I got to the point where, after many years of disagreeing with the left, I really hated the left because I find that so totalitarian and scary.

• 17:43Tucker Carlson?

  I just can't even believe that less than a year later, the right is doing the same thing. Like, what is going on?

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that, and going back to the, the, the great tragedy, the many tragedies that have grown from the one great tragedy of Charlie's death, um, it is, it is that.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Is that we have, like, the left, I still believe, I'm old fashioned, so call me old fashioned, but I still believe that the left, that leftism, leftism as an ideology is the enemy. It is, it is, it is the, it is the problem. It's the thing that we're fighting against. It's the thing that I've always fought against. It's why I'm, it's why I'm doing any of this. This is the only reason I'm on camera right now. The only reason that I'm doing any of this. The only reason I got into this, whatever it is we're doing, whatever this business is, this, uh, this fight, um, it's the reason I'm in it, is to oppose leftism.

• 18:42Tucker Carlson?

  What is, how do you define leftism?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Well, I, I would define it, modern leftism is, first of all, moral relativism. It's the idea that I have my own truth. You know, there is no, there is no truth. There's no, there's no truth. I have my own. Um, and so I think, to me, that's, that's the core of the thing. And I think that if you're a relativist, then you are a leftist. Doesn't matter what else you believe. You could be, you could be a relativist and be anti-immigration. You could be relativist and believe in gun rights. Uh, now, I think most relativists don't end up there, but even if you did, you're still a leftist because you reject truth.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  So that's what it is at, at, at its core. And also, uh, leftism, not really also, but as, as an, as a extension of that, it's an outgrowth of that.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Leftism opposes civilization and it opposes Western civilization in particular, and American identity, most particularly of all. Uh, it opposes all of the institutions that our civilization depends on and is, is grounded in, like the institution of the family and the institution of marriage. It rejects all of that. It rejects the fundamental truths that we depend on. It rejects the fundamental reality, like the reality of, well, men aren't women. And they're kind of, I think a lot of leftists are trying to, in a very, really embarrassed

• 20:20Speaker 01

  kind of way, back, back away from that one, because we beat them on it. You know, it's a thing, when, when we as conservatives can actually put all this bullshit to the side and focus on something, we can win. And we beat the, it's not, it's not totally dead, but the trans agenda is on life support, and we defeated it. We took it down. We beat it. We can do that. And it's a good thing that we did, because that was, and is wicked and evil, and it's hurting people and killing people.

• 20:49Tucker Carlson?

  Couldn't agree more.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  But they also, they reject the reality of, of, of human life. The fact that, that, that, that human life is, has inherent worth and dignity from the moments, the moment of its existence, from the moment of its conception. That your life is not, the value of your life is not contingent. Like, that's another fundamental aspect of leftism. They believe that human life, the value of human life is contingent. It's contingent for babies on whether or not their mother wants them. It's contingent on how much of an inconvenience they cause to their parents. And if it turns out that their mom doesn't want them, and their parents find them inconvenient,

• 21:34Speaker 01

  then their, their life has no value. Their life is less than garbage, and can, and can be killed and thrown into a dumpster. And that's what is still happening in this country, you know, every single day. That's still happening. Hundreds of thousands, every year, hundreds of thousands of human children are poisoned, stabbed in the heart with poison needles.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Dismembered, decapitated, and thrown into medical waste dumpsters. They don't even get a burial because they are treated as less than-

• 22:09Tucker Carlson?

  Or recycled into vaccines.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. They are treated as less, having less value than a dog. They have less value than, than an animal. I mean, there are, there are, there are animals who are, who are from conception federally protected, like sea turtles and bald eagles. And human children have less protection than that. So, and I know you know all this, I'm preaching to the choir. My point is that-

• 22:40Tucker Carlson?

  But I love it, it can't be said too much.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Right. My point is that, so that's happening. That is, to me, that's the enemy. That is what we're opposing. And if you're in favor of that, if you're, if you're among the forces that are pushing this, the destruction of the family, the destruction of, of human life in the womb, the rejection of reality, of objective truth, of, of national, of American identity, of Western civilization, if you're pushing that, then you're my enemy. You are my enemy, and I want to destroy your, I want to destroy your ideology. I want to destroy everything you stand for. That's what I want to do. And if you're against, but if you're against them,

• 23:23Speaker 01

  and that is to say, you stand for American identity and for the sanctity of human life and the family and, and objective truth and reality, uh, the church, faith. If you're, if you're on that side, then I, then I consider you to be basically an ally. And, and, and we could disagree vehemently on a lot of other issues. We could disagree on, we could, there could be a lot of disagreement. If we agree that, okay, we need to preserve all, as conservatives, what are we conserving? Well, to me, it's easy. We're conserving Western civilization, we're conserving American identity, we're conserving the sanctity of human life, we're conserving the family, we're conserving marriage. That's what we're conserving. And if you agree with me on that, then we're on the same side, as far as I'm concerned.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Now, we might have a lot of disagreements about how to conserve those things.

• 24:10Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  And those, those disagreements might be even brutal and bitter at times, but-

• 24:19Speaker 01

  If that is the argument, then we're all on the same side arguing. If we're arguing about whether those things should be conserved, well, then if you're on the other side of that argument, then we're not on the same side at all. We're, we're on, we're in two different universes. Like, I don't even know what universe you're living in. And, and the divide, I think ideologically in this country is so vast and so deep and so unbridgeable that it, that we may as well be living in different universes. We may as well be aliens from different galaxies trying to live on a planet together. And it's just not working out. That's what it feels like. And so for me, that's where the fight is. That's where I want the fight to remain.

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• 27:24Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you. Okay. First of all, that's like the greatest description I've heard in a long time, the clearest. It was like music to me, hearing that, because I agreed with every single word so strongly. You didn't mention economics, I noticed, which is revealing.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  I didn't. And yeah.

• 27:38Tucker Carlson?

  I wouldn't. And I know you've got views on it, I certainly do. But you mentioned what underlies the economic views, which is like your view of other human beings.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I, because I don't mean, but

• 27:49Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, on, so that's, I'm glad you brought that up, because that's a really important point. Because I am, when it comes to economics, I'm pretty, I hate to use the term, I'm pretty libertarian when it comes to a lot of economics.

• 28:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, me too.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  I would love to see, I don't think there should be a welfare state at all. I wish, I think we should abolish food stamps. I think we should abolish the income tax. I think the income tax is evil. I think it's terrible. And so that's how I feel about it. However, As far as I'm concerned, you could be a conservative and have the exact opposite. You could be a conservative and say, you know what? I think we should raise the income tax. I think the welfare state is great. I think there should be more of it. I think we should give food stamps to more people. I think we should have universal basic income. I think all these things. You could have that view as a conservative. Now, I will vehemently disagree with you. I will argue with you and I will yell at you. And you'll yell at me and that will be fine. But if, if the reason why you want that, it comes down to why do you want that? Why do you think we should have a welfare state?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  If your reason is that, well, this is the way to support families. And this is the way to make sure that we can have more families and people can have kids. Well, I think you're wrong. I think actually it destroys the family, but you want the same thing as I do. And so we're on the same side. I just think that you're, I think you're lost. I think you're trying to find the same destination, but you're, you're off in the woods somewhere on the path. And I want to, I want to, I want to wave to you and say, no, come back over here.

• 29:10Tucker Carlson?

  But you're using the same alphabet. I mean, you're speaking in the same tongue. Like you, you have a common point of reference because you want the same outcome.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Which is on the left, the reason why they want a lot of that stuff.

• 29:21Tucker Carlson?

  More control.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Is, is more control and because they actually want to destroy the family. They, they want to make the family irrelevant. They say, well, you know, if we have a vast welfare state, everyone's got, everyone's getting money. There, everyone's on the dole, then you don't really need the family. You don't need a father going to work and caring for his family. And so, and, and so that's what, that's what they're trying to get to. That's their reason for having that view.

• 29:43Tucker Carlson?

  But who is they is the question. And as I heard you explain who you're fighting against and why, and I nodded along in agreement. I really was the choir to your sermon. I thought you're describing the people who defend the war in Gaza. Perfectly, perfectly. They don't believe in absolute standards of truth at all. What, what they're committing in Gaza is exactly what they decry correctly when it happens to other people. Can't kill innocents. They didn't do anything wrong, not on purpose, you can't. Period. You're not allowed to do that, but they defend it fully. So they don't believe in an absolute standard of behavior at all. They don't believe in truth. It's totally. It's dependent upon circumstance, like, in fact, you've even seen people say it out loud.

• 30:28Tucker Carlson?

  You know, we, we raised an entire generation correctly to believe that slaughtering people because of how they were born is the greatest sin, which it is, I believe that. And now we're being, you know, hoisted by our own standards. And my view is no, standards are absolute. It's either true or it's not. And it's universally applicable, or it's not a real thing. It's just group, it's identity politics. That's exactly what I hate. And identity politics is the kind of political expression of the worldview that you have just decried and, and declared war against, and God bless you for doing that. But that is in full flower on the right. And I'm not gonna, I don't want to dignify people by naming them, but people I know

• 31:10Tucker Carlson?

  who call themselves like MAGA conservatives are defending the murder of innocents. And by the way, some of them suggest, well, we just move the refugees into the United States, because that's good for the country that they support. But is that good for us? That's an attack on American identity. You're also describing, by the way, in a lot of ways, Nicolas Maduro of Venezuela, who we're all required to hate, and I'm not supporting him, of course. But this is like the, the most socially conservative country in Latin America that has banned abortion, banned gay marriage, banned gender transitions, banned usury, banned, you know, loaning at crazy interest levels because it destroys people. I don't think he's done a good job running his country. Obviously, he hasn't. But to your point that like, we should be open to talking to people who share our

• 31:55Tucker Carlson?

  most basic values, how is he not on that list? Oh, shut up, you communist, but I'm not a communist. I'm not going to be bullied by your dumb labels. Not yours, but I'm anticipating the many attacks. I have been attacked for saying that, but it's just, it's true. So what's the answer? Do you see what I'm saying? So I guess, I guess what's blowing my mind is that I thought I was speaking the same language as a lot of people that I disagreed with on, on the margins, like about, you know, what, what's the best way to harness capitalism to help people? I mean, these are real debates. And then I realized with the war in Gaza that like, these are people who don't believe in Western civilization, because Western civilization can be boiled down to one concept. And that's the individual.

• 32:38Tucker Carlson?

  If something, someone does something wrong, we punish that person, we don't kill his kids. Why do we do that? Why is that our standard? Because we believe that God created every person as an individual. And every person will stand before God alone to account for his life. He's not responsible for what his children do, what his ancestors did, what his forebears might do. He's responsible for himself because we believe in the individual soul, not the collective soul. And that's what makes our civilization unique in the history of the world. And it derives from Christianity, from the Christian belief of the individual soul. And I see all these people who like clearly don't believe that. So how are we on the same side?

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I mean, so this is where we, we can be friends on the same side and disagree. Because, uh, yeah, I wouldn't agree with everything you've just laid out there. I think that, I think, the last time we talked, and we talked a little bit about Israel and my take at the time was, I really don't care.

• 33:34Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  I just don't care. I honestly don't care.

• 33:37Tucker Carlson?

  I want that take bad. I don't want to care. I don't want anything to do with it.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  And that's, and that's still my take. That's always been my take. It upsets people on both, this is one legitimately on both sides of the Israel issue. People get mad at me for that because they say that, well, if they're very pro-Israel, they say, well, you're being a coward and you need to stand up and support Israel and talk about how Israel's our greatest, most important ally and all this stuff. And, but then another side, very much it's, well, no, Israel's the great Satan, they're the most evil country in the world. They're responsible for everything bad that happens. And, uh, which is, which is something that I think some people legitimately really do believe at some level.

• 34:14Tucker Carlson?

  A lot of people believe that.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Right. And, uh, and so then they say to me, well, well, you need to stand up and, and say, you know, and say that. And again, my response to that is first of all, don't tell me what to say. Okay. I have my own mind.

• 34:28Tucker Carlson?

  Amen.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  So don't tell me what to say. I will say what I want to say. And, and I can only speak for my own opinion. This is my view. And I think, and I'll, we'll get back to it, but not to get sidetracked. This, this is one thing, by the way, that's making political conversation in this country impossible, is that all anyone ever does anymore is impugn the motives.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Behind the argument that you're making. So you make an argument and then everyone goes, "Well, you're only saying that because..." And it's like, first of all, even if it's true that I'm making this argument for some dishonest reason, well, is the argument right or not? Because if the argument is right, the argument's still right, even if I'm the worst guy in the world saying it.

• 35:12Tucker Carlson?

  It's also like arguing with a woman. They tell you what you think. And it's like, "No, I'm actually telling you what I think."

• 35:16Speaker 01

  And why, and, and, right. And, well, here's why you're really saying that. Well, for me, the only person who can speak to your motives is you.

• 35:24Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  And so if I ask you, "Well, why are you saying that?" And you tell me, I have no choice but to just accept that because I'm not in your mind. You're the only authority, you are the only authority of what is in your mind. You're the only one on the planet. The only other authority, the only greater authority is God, and I can't really ask him, so I can only go to you on that. And so for me-

• 35:42Tucker Carlson?

  You're describing my life, but yes, I agree with you completely.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  So for me, on Israel, when I say, "I don't care," and everyone on both sides goes, "Well, you're saying that because..." No, I'm saying that because that's what I think. I'm saying, and I always have, which is why, by the way, you can go through my catalog. I've been blabbering my opinions publicly for a while now. And not as, you know, I haven't been in the business as long as you, but I've, I've been, you know, at least 10 years on the record. And if you go through that, before I worked at the Daily Wire, and, and while I was there, when I was independent, I was an independent blogger, just like churning out content and, you know, and you can go through all that. And here's what you'll find. You'll find that I almost never, ever talked about Israel. And when I did talk about it,

• 36:30Speaker 01

  on the rare, like, once every five years, if it came up, my take was, "I don't really care about this. I don't care about this country. It's not my country. You know, if you're, if you're in America, if you're an American politician, you should care about America first." And, and that's it. That's always been my take. So that's always been my take.

• 36:46Tucker Carlson?

  By the way, me too, believe it or not, up until the last year, I don't, in 35 years, I don't think I've talked about Israel 10 times. December's already here. Felt like it was just summer the other day. Your life is moving fast. As always, there's a lot to keep track of between Christmas, family, giving presents, keeping up with your regular life. Times like these are when moments of peace become essential.

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• 37:51Tucker Carlson?

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• 38:06Speaker 04

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• 39:03Tucker Carlson?

  So here's the point, it's not actually about Israel, it's about the components of the American right.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:10Tucker Carlson?

  Who are defending mass murder, and I mean that murder, killing people who didn't do anything wrong, in Gaza. That's it. It's not Israel, it's what about the parts of this coalition that, as you noted, Charlie really did keep together.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:26Tucker Carlson?

  That are now fracturing, but one of the reasons they're fracturing is because they have different views, different worldviews, and that is obvious when you hear how they respond to the murder of like, kids and women in Gaza. So it's Americans responding to that. Are you really conservative? How are you not the leftist that you just described if you're like, "Well, they're basically all Hamas, including the kids." That is collective punishment, that's blood guilt, that's the opposite of what you described. How can I be on the same side as someone with that attitude?

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Well, here's what I would say. I think that if somebody is making the argument that we or Israel can kill as many Palestinians as they want, can kill children because their lives have no value, because they're Palestinian, if you're making that argument, then that is a leftist argument.

• 40:21Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly, it's a leftist argument.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  However, however, however, I think that there are plenty of people who would defend and have defended Israel's actions in Gaza, and even our involvement, which I don't agree with us being involved at all.

• 40:36Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  But people have had that view. But not on that basis. What they would say is, you know, they would say, "Oh, well, it's not true that we're, that they're killing children, it's not, or, or, it's really tragic, but, but it's, it's, it's, you know, there's no other way to fight the war, it's, it's not intentional, it's, we're actually targeting the terrorists, and this is, this is, these are casualties that happen like in any war, it's very bad, you try to minimize them, but we don't, we don't want that to happen."

• 41:05Speaker 01

  They could say, you know, there's many arguments along those lines. Just also arguments that just kind of reject the premise. Like, your premise is that they're doing mass murder of people in Gaza. I think that there are conservatives who would just reject that premise and say, that's not actually happening.

• 41:19Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but if you, just the, I think the undisputed fact there are tens of thousands, 70,000. We can certainly say tens of thousands of women and children killed in Gaza. And so there are really two arguments you can make. One is that like, that happens in war, collateral damage, which is true. It's 100% true that that always happens in war. It hasn't happened at this scale in 80 years, but in the West, but it does happen. And the United States has done a lot of it. We dropped the atom bombs, okay? So like, we're, Israel's not the only country that's done this. But what, are, are you sad about it? Do you think it's bad? Would you be willing to say, holy shit, I can't believe we killed 70,000 noncombatants? That's the acid test.

• 42:02Tucker Carlson?

  Can you admit that that's horrible? It's horrible. It's a moral crime. It was a moral crime we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. And it's not even a close call, in my view. It's not an endorsement of the imperial Japanese government, but it's like, that's just bad. If you can't say that, then you are endorsing collective punishment, aren't you?

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I think it goes back to, what, what, what argument are you, are you making? So, like, using Hiroshima, for example. And I, I'll be honest, I've kind of been on both sides of that. I think there's interesting arguments on both sides. I think in unten, a morally untenable argument would be, well, yeah, just kill as many as you need to. They don't matter. They were Japanese, they were the enemy, just kill them. Like, that's morally untenable, obviously. And based on that argument, well, then we could just nuke, if you get into, get into a war, just like, nuke the entire country, kill everybody. And why not?

• 43:00Speaker 01

  And that obviously is, that, that is rejecting the value of human life, which is, which is an unconservative view. It's also just deeply immoral. Well, the other, the other side of the argument for like the atom bomb, for example, would say, well, this was the best way to preserve human life, that, that, that, uh, these were legitimate military targets. Uh, and the way to preserve human life ultimately was this way. If we had not done it, then millions more people would have died. Millions more Japanese would have died. And that's the argument. Now, like I said, I, I, I can see the argument for that. It now that runs into the charge of ends justify the means.

• 43:36Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it doesn't run into the charge. It's an expression of ends justify.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, there's, there's all, yeah, there's, there's.

• 43:42Tucker Carlson?

  It's like the perfect articulation of it's like, if I could save millions by shooting your children, it's okay to shoot your children.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  I think there's a dip, like there's ends justify the means. Now we're getting into philosophic. I'm not a philosopher. There's end justify the means. There's also the kind of the principle of double effect, which is different and double effect is, well, so I understand it. You can do something that you know will have a negative effect, but your intentions are good. And, and it's, it, you're doing it in order to bring about a good result.

• 44:12Tucker Carlson?

  This was the argument that Hitler and Stalin made. If you take a look at Stalin's personal correspondence and diaries, which by the way are available, it was super interesting. He was an idealist, like he really believed he was ushering in a new era of man. And like you had to kill a lot of Ukrainians to do that and Georgians and Russians, by the way, a lot of Christians. You had to murder a lot of priests to get there, but by the end you would have utopia. Hitler felt that way. It's like, if we only get the Jews out, everything will be great. And so, but we are against them because we don't share that view. We believe in human life. Like it's not okay to kill an innocent person.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, yeah, that, that argument. Well, it's not, yeah, it's not okay to intentionally and deliberately kill an innocent person.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  I think that's,

• 45:02Speaker 01

  in, in war, innocent people do die. I think that there can, there are a lot of wars that have been unjust. There are, there is such a thing as a just war. There's such a thing as a necessary war. And if we can agree on that, then, then we have to accept that in any war, innocent people will die. It's terrible tragedy. So now, but the argument that I was just, uh, laying out for dropping the atom bomb. It's true. Like that, that can be terribly abused. My only point is, and I'm not even taking a position on that. Because I honest, my, my honest view is like, I kind of feel like I have an opinion of it and then I express it and someone comes and they just eviscerate my argument on it and then I think, well, you might be right. And then I hear, so like that's kind of where my...

• 45:44Tucker Carlson?

  These are super tough, I mean, I should just say, I hope I don't sound self-righteous. My views have changed. If you went through my corpus of opinions, it would be a Jackson Pollock painting. It would just be splattered of everything. So like, my views are evolving in real time, but I've been forced to think about it because of what's happening in Gaza. It's like, I don't feel like I have a choice.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, but my only, my point about that is, whatever is the correct view, let's just accept for the sake of argument, I'll take your view that dropping the atom bomb was morally wrong. I still think that somebody could be wrong about that, but for the right reasons, and so they're still kind of on my side. Because the wrong, if you're correct in your argument, then the wrong for the right reasons position is, yeah, we cherish human life. This was the best way ultimately to preserve human life. And again, you could say, well, that's wrong, but someone could have that view and the reason why they have it is because they truly believe in the sanctity of human life and they just honestly believe

• 46:49Speaker 01

  that that was the best way to preserve it.

• 46:51Tucker Carlson?

  That was my opinion until recently as a lifelong adamant pro-lifer. So, I mean, I want to give myself the benefit of the doubt. You know, I'm not for dead kids. I guess what has really brought this to the fore is a guy called Randy Fine, who's a congressman from Florida who, you know, I disagree with on a lot. I don't think I disagree with him on anything, actually. He spent his career in the gambling business, exploiting people, and now he got some kind of clever way to find a senate, a house seat in Florida. Everything about it, I disapprove of, and of course, I don't like his foreign policy views. But there are a lot of people like that and I'm not mad at them. What makes him unusual is that he said out loud what I think a lot of people think, which is like, it's hilarious

• 47:34Tucker Carlson?

  to see a picture of a dead child in Gaza. Somebody tweeted him, I know you're online, you've seen this, a picture of a dead baby in Gaza. And he laughed at it and said, someone said, how can you sleep at night? You know, getting self-righteous with him, okay, being high-handed like the anti-war left is. How can you sleep? But okay, so I get it, they're annoying, but like it is like, his response was, very well, thank you. Thanks for the pick. If that's your gut reaction to a picture of a dead baby, we are not on the same side in any way. On the deepest level, we're not on the same side. I'm a father, like, I'm not, how can I laugh at that? I can't. And that to me revealed what I think a lot of people think, who I know very well, who call themselves conservatives, which is just like, these are not human beings.

• 48:19Tucker Carlson?

  Well, if you've got that attitude, how can you, how can you really care about me or my country or my children? Like, I don't think you can.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that, I certainly would agree with you on that. If you, if you think that dead kids are funny, then we're not, we're not just on the same side, but this goes back to, I don't think we're living in the same universe.

• 48:37Tucker Carlson?

  You're the leftists that you described.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you fundamentally cannot value human life if you could ever see it as funny that a child was.

• 48:44Tucker Carlson?

  I think.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Uh, so, so for sure. And I think that there are people that we would call neo-cons that are definitely not conservative by any stretch. My only point to you is that I think there are plenty of people who are on the other side of the, of the argument, who are conservative and, and they just don't, they don't agree with the premise that you're laying out. They don't, and they do want to preserve human life. They think this is the way to do it. Uh, they, they could be wrong, but people can be wrong about things.

• 49:16Tucker Carlson?

  Or they haven't thought about it, or the partisan system, I'll speak for myself. I didn't think about it at all. And all the people getting mad about Hiroshima hated America, it's just a fact. And they wanted to say that all-American military, uh, expeditions were immoral because America was fundamentally immoral. That's the point they were making. They wanted us to hate ourselves. They taught us a history that convinced our kids to hate themselves and to hate their own country. And that's all evil and we're watching the results of it now. So I was like, man, there's no way I'm on their side. Like, they hate everything that I love, including my nation. So I just was like, if you're for it, I'm not for it. And, cause I'm a child that way, like I just react against things.

• 49:58Tucker Carlson?

  But now I'm feeling like I got misled into supporting an awful lot of violence, like a lot of violence. And how, how is that good?

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think. Well, so there's two things. First of all, there's a, maybe there's a whole other category we should be talking about because we're talking about left, right, conservative, liberal. Then you have, you also have the politicians who often, not always, but often are neither, and they don't have, they don't have an ideology.

• 50:29Tucker Carlson?

  For sure.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  And their ideology is control and power, and, and that's what they care about.

• 50:34Tucker Carlson?

  What percentage would you say fall into that category?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Um, ninety-five percent.

• 50:39Tucker Carlson?

  It feels that way, doesn't it?

• 50:41Speaker 01

  I, I would, I'll amend that. I think it's, it used to be ninety-five percent want control and power. I think now it's more like, and this is even worse, now it's like seventy percent want control and power, and then you've got another twenty percent who, they're just there because they want attention, like the Jasmine Crockett's.

• 50:58Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Uh, they're just there because they want to be influencers, like Jasmine Crockett.

• 51:02Tucker Carlson?

  I'm so grateful for her. She amuses me every day.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  But if you were to go to Jasmine Crockett and say, okay, here's two buttons. Press one button and you're the President of the United States. Press the other button and you have fifty million Instagram followers and your Instagram. She is pest pressing the Instagram button in a second.

• 51:19Tucker Carlson?

  Top one hundred percent.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  But that, but it's, it's, that's a different, like, species of politician we've never really seen before.

• 51:24Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, no, it's so true.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Because up to this point, every single politician, like, I can be president, I'll, I'll take that over, you know, if it's like, I'll, I'll, press this button, you can be president, but as a consequence, your whole family dies. They're pressing the button.

• 51:36Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  A lot of these people. And now it's, it's a little bit, there's, there are people who, who, they're politicians, they're not even really hungry for power, they just want attention, which I think in some ways is somehow even worse. But, anyway, the, the, the just want power category, I think that does describe a lot of the people we would call like neocons. Lindsey Graham.

• 51:53Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Is for sure in this category. You know, I, I don't know where it was, he gave a speech recently, he was talking about, uh, I, I think it was him bragging about how we ran out of bombs or something like that. I think I have the right person here.

• 52:06Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Um, and, and so it's, it's like, okay, well, you obviously do not take human life seriously if you just think it's, it's, like, you just want to run out of the bombs. And, um, and, and for someone like him, this is not someone who's a conservative at all. He doesn't, but it's not, for someone like him, he doesn't, I don't think that he's,

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Passionately in favor of like abortion or destroying the family, he just doesn't care.

• 52:33Tucker Carlson?

  Doesn't matter.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Right. It doesn't, doesn't matter to him. So, um, so I think that's, that's the other category that exists.

• 52:39Tucker Carlson?

  That's really, that's really smart. That's really smart. It's like post ideological, it's even kind of post-power. It's just pure narcissism.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Although I, in, if I could, I'm actually glad you brought it up because I wanted to talk to you about this. Uh, in, in defense of violence, if I, if I could, uh, I, I, because I've heard you talk about, about this and.

• 53:03Tucker Carlson?

  And my views are by the way, changing even during this conversation. Like this is all new to me. So I don't.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  So, because I'm actually, I think in some ways we should have a lot more violence in society. I'm, I'm sort of pro-violence.

• 53:16Tucker Carlson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  In a, in a certain context. Um, I think that violence can be a necessary tool for justice. Like I just believe that. Um, now it can be really misused and it very often is. And I think it very often is these days. But it is a necessary tool for justice. And so what I'm really mostly talking about are evil people who've committed terrible crimes against the innocent. And I think that through illegal means, and I'm talking about, you know, I'm talking about.

• 53:50Tucker Carlson?

  Extrajudicial winchings or anything.

• 53:53Speaker 01

  Right. I'm talking about legal means. For those kinds of people, we should be using violence a lot more because I think that it's ju, I just think that it's justice. What is justice? Justice is, uh, giving to someone what they're owed. You know, giving, giving to anything. What, putting things in their right place, basically, I would say is, is justice. So giving someone what they're owed is justice. So if you owe me $5, it's justice that you give me $5. That's a matter of justice. And if you give me $3 and you owe me $5, that's an injustice that has occurred. Now, if I.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Slap your wife in front of you. I'm owed something else. I'm not owed $5, but I am owed something now. Like it is right that I receive something and that I would say is a slap right. It's you slap my wife, I'll punch you 10 times in the face instead. Like that's, that is a just response. That is justice. And, and I think what we have these days, you got a lot of people walking around doing this assault, like literally assaulting women, you know? And they don't receive what they're owed and what they're owed is, is, is harsh. And I think sometimes violent, but just punishment. Um, and so that's, that's my one kind of caveat.

• 55:11Tucker Carlson?

  You know, it's hard to disagree with that. Um, it's, I mean, of course viscerally, I agree with you and all of this is just aimed at whites. Obviously, because what you're talking about is a racial dynamic where non-whites who commit crimes just aren't punished as harshly as whites who commit crimes. So it's a, it's a racial double standard designed to like destroy the country, which it's doing. And, and I feel that every person feels that, like the need for justice. And sometimes that is, that expression is physical. How do you balance that against like the Sermon on the Mount, which I happen to have read this morning? Um, where Jesus is like, well, the law is eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. But I tell you, you know, turn the other cheek and, you know, he takes your shirt, give him your cloak.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  I'll tell you, cause I've thought a lot about this. I mean, obviously hopefully all Christians have thought, I've thought about the Sermon on the Mount a lot. It's only the most important public address.

• 56:02Tucker Carlson?

  It's mind blowing. Right. Whenever people are like, oh, Jesus was a great person, great teacher. You read that and you're like, either he was God or this whole thing is insane. Because this is not, it's not intuitive wisdom in the Sermon on the Mount.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's the C.S. Lewis, the, you know, trilemma lunatic, lunatic liar or lord. You know, those are the only options. But anyway, so yeah, of course, I, as all Christians should, I've thought a lot about this. And how do you, because I also recognize in myself, I'm talking about how violence can be just, just. And I really believe that. But I also, I have a vengeful streak in me. I fully recognize that.

• 56:37Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, well, me too.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  And when I see evil people, I actually, I actually do sometimes hate them. And hate means like, I don't just want justice for you. I want you to suffer.

• 56:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  And I want you to burn in hell. And that, and as Christians, we should never want that. We should never, we should never want anyone to be damned. And sometimes I find that feeling in myself. I pray about it. I just have to be honest that I do feel that way about really bad people. But how do you, how do you square this? I think that, so turn the other cheek. I think it's very important to notice that Jesus is saying, if someone slaps you, turn the other cheek.

• 57:16Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  What he does not say is if someone slaps your wife, someone slaps your child, or someone slaps an innocent woman on the subway, turn the other cheek. Because turn the other cheek in that situation is not you being the bigger man. It's you being a coward. And so that's how I square it. And that's how I can also square Jesus having these kinds of, you know, quote unquote, anti, you know, violence, statements that he made with also, famously, he goes into the temple and fashions a whip. I mean, that's what, that's what scripture says. It's not even like he grabbed one. This was a premeditated, this was premeditated.

• 57:58Tucker Carlson?

  He made it.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  First degree, like, and so he fashions a whip. And he starts beating these people to get them out of the, out of, out of the temple. And that is violent. I mean, think about, it's easy to read these stories and, and just read it as a story. We've heard it a million times, heard it in Sunday schools as a child. It gets kind of sanitized. Well, imagine actually seeing this happen. I mean, imagine actually seeing it in real life that, that you're there and somebody has a whip and they are throwing down tables, beating people with whips. I mean, there's going to be blood. It's going to be a very brutal scene.

• 58:29Tucker Carlson?

  In the temple of all places.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  Right, in the temple. And yet, this was Jesus Christ who did it. This was our Lord and Savior who did this act. And so it was and had to be a moral act. And so what that tells us is that, you know, violence is sometimes necessary. Now, The rejoinder to that is, well, that was, you know, God made flesh who used violence, and that doesn't mean that you can do it.

• 58:57Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  And.

• 58:59Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there's also a theme that runs throughout the New Testament where Jesus and his disciple Paul draw very clean distinction between you as a Christian and the state. So the state is held to difference. The state operates by a different code.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:17Tucker Carlson?

  Right? Rend it under God, what's God's. Rend it under Caesar, what's Caesar's. I don't know. I'm the opposite of a theologian. I really, I really don't know.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  What, what happens when the state? And we're experiencing this right now, because I, I think that is kind of the answer. The state, uh, the, the state has authority from God. Now, it doesn't like, that's, it's hard sometimes, especially for conservatives to accept that, but that's scriptural. The state has authority from God.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Now, it can reject its mandate. It can do things that are evil, obviously. And it can do things that we should reject. And in some cases, even rebel against in the most extreme cases. Um, so we know all that is true, but,

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  but the state as like an institution, generally speaking, has authority. This is, this is God ordained. This is what God wants. He doesn't want us all to live as, he doesn't want anarchy, you know, where there's no, there's no one in charge. But, um, so the, the state has that authority. What happens when the state refuses to exercise that authority?

• 1:00:21Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  And, uh, and what happens when it refuses to enact justice? And it refuses to protect the innocent. What happens then?

• 1:00:31Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you overthrow the state.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. At, at what point? At what point morally? Can the average citizen say, well, the state is not doing this? And so I have no choice but to do it. If I don't do it, then it won't be done. And I think we're getting perilously close to a point where people en masse start saying that. They start saying, "The state is not doing this. They're not defending my family. They're not defending my community. My community is unlivable. These violent psychopaths who've been arrested 40 times are running through the street, assaulting women, assaulting children, and I cannot live this way anymore, and I won't live this way." And I think we're getting perilously close to a point where en masse, people start saying that.

• 1:01:11Tucker Carlson?

  Perilously or blessedly close?

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Well, perilously, because that's not, I would prefer, that's not the best option. The best option is the state does its job. When, when, when, when, the other option is ultimately chaos. I mean, that's where it leads. And, um, but that's where we are. I, I think right now you have, uh, like, the best version of that are people who are, have benevolent intentions and know what they're doing and are good, decent people. And they step up in an extreme situation because nobody else will, and they do the thing that the state won't do. But they don't go overboard and they don't become, you know, Batman. Uh, and, and so like Daniel Penny, for example, I mean, Daniel Penny is an example of someone who said,

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  "Okay, I gotta step in. I gotta do the right thing. This guy should not be out here. He should not be allowed on this subway. There should be some kind of cop here to arrest him. No one is doing it. I'm gonna step up." And, and I'm, and I'm glad that he did. He was right to do it. And, um, so that's the, that's the best version. That's the best version of, of people stepping in where the state has failed.

• 1:02:17Tucker Carlson?

  Did he get a Presidential Medal of Freedom? What happened to Daniel Penny?

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Well, that's a, that's a very good, good question. Well, he was, they tried to throw him in prison.

• 1:02:24Tucker Carlson?

  No, I know. It was a rhetorical question, but it's like, if you see heroism like that and it goes unrewarded, in fact, if it's punished, then, then you have a total inversion of justice.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  And then, and then, and then-

• 1:02:37Tucker Carlson?

  So how is the state legitimate at that point?

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Right. And by design, when people like that become punished, or punished as, I mean, they, they tried to put him in prison. They, thank God, were not successful. But they, you know, they tried to destroy his life. Everybody else looks at that. And I think by design, it has this demoralizing effect because everyone else looks at that and they say, well, I don't want that to happen. And now, I think, I mean, I don't ride the subway because I value my, my life. But if I were on the subway and I saw something like that happening, I'd be thinking to myself, well, I hope I would step in. But I'd also be thinking, well, I got a family at home. I got a wife. And if I step in and I go to prison, and so, so now I can't be there for my wife and children.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  And so is it right for me to step up and protect these strangers if, if the consequence is now I can't protect my own wife and children?

• 1:03:26Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  I don't know. And I don't even know what the right answer is. I don't, I can't even say for sure. If I'm, if I'm looking at that happening and I'm in Daniel Penny's shoes and I got a wife and children at home, I think the right thing is for me to step up and do what he did, but I'm not even sure if it's the right thing because, because I got a wife and kids. And now I gotta call them. I gotta call my wife and say, hey, by the way, I might be going to prison forever. Um, good luck, you know? I don't know. It's, it's, it puts, it, it, it creates a lose, lose, unwinnable situation.

• 1:03:54Tucker Carlson?

  Even now, you feel that, even after the last election and clearly there's a reaction against the kind of government that we had. You, you still would feel like no one in authority would support you and?

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, generally, I think the rot, well, first of all, this is a, this is a, I mean, when we talk about the state in general failing to do the basic things to preserve civilization, this is a wide problem. It goes to, it's the state level, it's the local level, cities. And, um, has all of that been fixed? Like definitely not, I mean, not even close.

• 1:04:32Tucker Carlson?

  Well, so that, that was kind of the broad, that was exactly the question I'm asking in it. I don't even know if I have, you sent out an amazing tweet recently, oh, it's right here, December 4th. I want to read it. "It's an empirical fact that basically everything in our day to day lives has gotten worse over the years. The quality of everything, food, clothing, entertainment, air travel, roads, traffic, infrastructure, housing, et cetera, has declined in observable ways." You're a nice writer, by the way. Thank you. There's not enough good writing on Twitter.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 1:04:59Tucker Carlson?

  "Even newer in ven- Search engines, social media, smartphones have gone downhill drastically. This isn't just a random old man yells at clouds complaint.

• 1:05:09Tucker Carlson?

  It's true. It's happening. The decline can be measured. Everyone sees it. Everyone feels it. Meanwhile, political pundits and podcast hosts, speaking of things that are getting worse, focus on anything and everything except these practical, real-life problems that actually affect our quality of life. So I have like eight questions there. And I'm going to ask you about your core observation. Is it getting worse? Clearly it is. Why are podcast hosts and pundits ignoring this? Physical reality?

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think that it's a wide group of people. I think they have different motivations. I think for, well, there's the most obvious answer is that for a lot of these people, pundits, podcast hosts, cable news, all the media in general, a lot of them I think are insulated from a lot of this stuff. They don't, they don't live in this world.

• 1:06:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  And things like, so for example, we're talking about things that are getting worse. One thing, and it seems small, but it's not. One thing that's really getting worse is restaurant food. Okay, the food at most restaurants, I'll talk about like chain restaurants, you got Applebee's or Chili's or whatever. You order a pizza from one of these places, especially one of these chain places. And the food is worse. And that's not just, again, it's not old man, I am an old man yelling at clouds, but it's not what this is. It is, it is true. It's a real thing that's happening. And you can trace it. You can look at, okay, starting in the early 2000s, all these places started getting bought up by private equity companies.

• 1:06:44Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  And so now they're, they're run by people who don't care about the product or even know anything about it. So that's happening. Also, it used to be that you go to these places and it's a bunch of like teenagers and college kids that are working there. And, and they're just working there to make some money to pay for college or whatever. And that's happening less now. And now you've got. Adults, you know, very, it's a, an increasing number of like people with substance abuse problems, people who. You know, they're in their late twenties and they're still. You know, they're, they're doing a job that a 16 year old used to do because their life isn't working out exactly as it should. That's, that's its own problems. Like, why is that happening? Right? Um, but, but the effect of that is that even a lot of the people, not, not all of them at all, but.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  A lot of the people in the establishments that are working there on the ground. Don't really care that much about the product. And you can see why they don't care. They're getting paid crap wages. They've got a difficult life. They're working for people who don't care about it. Like, so the guy who runs this, if I'm working at Applebee's and I'm a waiter. And I'm looking at it like, okay, the guy who runs this place doesn't know anything about this. He doesn't care. I'm getting paid nothing. Uh, why do I care? Uh, you know, and so, so I don't care. And so that's happening. And then. The quality of the food. It used to be that most of these places made their food fresh. Now no place makes food, fresh food anymore. They all buy frozen food. There are a couple of food distributors. Cisco is one of them that.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  The vast majority of the food that you eat at a Chili's or Applebee's or whatever is distributed. It comes off the same truck. It's the same frozen food that comes off of the same truck. And that is served in all these places, which is why all the food sucks and it all tastes the same because it's literally the same. People don't know that. Uh, even pizza places. Again, everything's frozen. There's one, I forget the name of it. There's one cheese distributor that distributes most of the cheese at all these different places. And that's like the crucial element of a pizza. And it's literally the same. It's the same thing. And, but they're just pretending that it's not. So my point is that this is a small thing.

• 1:08:52Tucker Carlson?

  By the way, it's not a small thing.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  Right, so it's not a-

• 1:08:54Tucker Carlson?

  What people eat is important.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Yes, it's quality of life, it's your diet, it's what you eat. It's, um, and that stuff really matters. Now, podcast hosts and pundits, a lot of them, why don't they care? Well, there's two reasons. Number one, they're not eating at these places. And if you have money, then you don't have to worry about that because you can go to expensive places where the steak costs eighty-five dollars and it's not gonna hurt you much because you got a lot of money. And if you have a lot of money, then you don't notice any of this because at the really fancy restaurants where people spend a lot of money, most of those places are still making fresh food. And the service is a lot better because they're paying better wages to their, to the waiters. Like, now you've got older waiters and waitresses, but they're older who have kind of climbed with the ladder.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  They're really good at this, they get paid better wages, they care about it. Like, you go into one of these fancy places, and I like eating, I mean, who doesn't like eating at these kind of restaurants? The food is good. But you go into it and one of the first things you notice before you even get to the quality of the food is that everyone, at least at the good places, everyone that you interact with, starting at the hostess stand, seems to be really happy that you're there and they care that you're having a good experience. That is not how it works when you go to Chili's, you know. So, anyway, the, these podcasts, these people that I'm talking about, they're in those places. And so they're not in the places where the quality's falling off a cliff. And then also, I think that, and this is something we all do, and I do it too.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  You get caught in this, we're dealing with like national issues all the time. We're dealing with politics and what's happening in Washington and the president and geopolitics and what's happening. We're dealing with these massive, big things all the time, if you're a pundit, if you do commentary. And so you can fall into this line of thinking that-

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  The things that actually impact someone's physical everyday life, those things are just too small to worry about.

• 1:10:57Tucker Carlson?

  Well, politicians wind up at this exact place.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  And, and, and, and it's true that, because I run into this, when I start talking about this stuff, I will hear this criticism from people. They'll say, why are you talking about this? I did a, I did a whole video on my, on my channel a few weeks, few weeks ago. I did like a 30 minute monologue on why does restaurant food suck? And there are two interesting things that happened after I talked about this issue. One is that I did get a lot of criticism from people saying, everything's happening in the world. You're talking about Applebee's? Like, why are you talking about this? You know, it's like, how out of touch are you? But really, it's the opposite. It's like, no, this is, this is the stuff that's happening in people's lives. But so that I got that criticism, but then what I also noticed is that

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  a lot of people watched that video. It was like one of the more successful in terms of traffic videos that I've done in a while. And, and it was just about food at Applebee's. And why is that? It's because, again, this is like, this, this is your life. This is what's happening in your actual life. And it, it matters. It touches you. And, and it touches your family.

• 1:12:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. And this is, one thing I notice about a lot of people in the world that I have always lived in is they either spend time, and this is true for me, I'll admit it, they either spend time in very rich places or in very rural, like low income places. But there's no time spent in the middle, which is where the overwhelming majority of Americans live. So it's like only rich people, only poor people, but no middle-class people. So they have a sense of like, you know, a lot of rich people have summer houses. So they sort of get the, you know, if you're on Nantucket, right? And you go there in the winter and everyone's on drugs. You're like, oh, wow. You know, fentanyl is a huge problem in our country, but there's no Applebee's.

• 1:12:52Tucker Carlson?

  There's no Applebee's in Cambridge, Mass. There's no Applebee's in Nantucket. There's no, do you see what I'm saying? You just, you do get a very, and I am so guilty of this. In fact, so guilty that I really go out of my way to like, understand, you know? But there's no sense of like, normalcy.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:11Tucker Carlson?

  It's also in the same way that like the richest people, Bill Gates, for example, are totally focused on curing Africa and Congo. I mean, curing malaria, polio. They're obsessed with the problems of the poorest while living the lives of the richest, but like the bulk of the population is invisible to them.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's right. I was having a conversation with someone recently who's in the business and I don't know, I mentioned in passing.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  I don't remember why. I just mentioned in passing, I'd just been out, I just was coming, I just had been to Walmart. I was pick, I was buying something, whatever. I went to Walmart. And this person was shocked that I'd gone to Walmart and they said, I haven't been in a Walmart in 20 years.

• 1:13:56Tucker Carlson?

  Cause there are no whites in Walmart. That's the other thing. They're like, they're, you drive into like middle America. There are no, where, I don't know what happened to all the whites, but are we allowed to say that? I just noticed it. Like we're all, there's no whites at like a rest area on the highway anymore.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:10Tucker Carlson?

  And in Walmart, I go to buy sporting clays. It's my only, my only shopping trip of the year usually. And it's like, where are all the white people?

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  Well, that's, that's part of the thing. It's, it's, I mean, it's a small, it's a small thing, but it's, it's just, it's emblematic of the problem. It's like.

• 1:14:25Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there's just been total demographic change.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but if, as a commentator, if you have never been in a Walmart or, you know, it's like, well, then that's America. I mean, that's, that's the, that's middle America.

• 1:14:39Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I totally agree.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  So it's just, there's, there's a basic, I'm not saying you gotta go and walk around a Walmart like a safari trip just to understand America. I'm just saying that, that it's just like, that's, yeah, that's what's going on in America is a place like that. And if you're just never there at all, to your point about either you're out in the sticks or you're in the really wealthy areas, then you're, you're not really in touch with what's actually happening in America. And one of those things is, yeah, when you go, you do notice this, when you go to the places where everybody goes, Walmart is one of those places, the DMV is one of those places, like a place where everybody has to go.

• 1:15:14Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Unless they're very, very, very rich.

• 1:15:17Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Or very, very, very poor. When you go to those places, you do notice, you start noticing things and one of those things is like.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, it looks a lot different now. It's, it's, um, it's, yeah, not, not nearly as many white people as there used to be. You start noticing those kinds of things.

• 1:15:31Tucker Carlson?

  Like, yeah, like, it, you know, I've never been a bigot. It's prohibited by my religion. But I also think there's overwhelming pressure not to notice obvious things. And I try to keep myself, you know, alert, just to notice what my eyes tell me. And that's the biggest change. That's an incredibly fast change, incredibly fast change. Not, it's not an accidental change. It was an intentional change to reduce the white population in the United States. And I've kind of never seen anybody more passively accept it. And I wonder, like, are we getting to a point where we can say that and notice it? And why is that good, exactly?

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  Well, for, for every other, it's, it's funny, because certainly for every other race on the planet, if we were to look and see that in their native countries, um, they are dwindling and disappearing. Everyone, it would be nothing controversial about saying, well, this is bad. No one would say, well, why is it bad? You know, if, if-

• 1:16:37Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not even saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's so profound and abrupt.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Well, and I, I will, I will say, I think it's bad.

• 1:16:44Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Uh, I think if you go to Nigeria, if I were to go to Nigeria and notice that, like, all the Nigerians are disappearing.

• 1:16:50Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  I would say, well, what's going on here? I mean-

• 1:16:53Tucker Carlson?

  Everyone's Chinese all of a sudden.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Right. That's like, that's bad. And, and if I said that, no one, I don't think anyone would even ask, well, why is it bad? What do you mean, why is it bad? It's Nigeria. Like, there should be Nigerians in Nigeria. Um, and it's bad if some other group comes and takes it over. And I think for any other race or demographic on the planet, you can say that. Uh, for white people, we're the one race, the one demographic where, it's not even just that you can't notice that this replacement is happening. It's that, in fact, we're at the point now where you should notice it and celebrate it. It should be seen as a good thing.

• 1:17:22Tucker Carlson?

  So, but isn't that evil? Isn't anyone who tells me that I'm not allowed to notice or scolds me for noticing, isn't that person my enemy? Isn't that, I mean, how could you justify that? What does that say about your motives?

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think so. And also, it's, I said, it's every other demographic on the planet. Any other species on the planet? Like if I

• 1:17:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, it's so true.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, if

• 1:17:45Tucker Carlson?

  Where are all the condors?

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. If I, if we look, we get these panics all the time. Oh, all the, um, Amazonian horned owls are disappearing or whatever. And they're going away. We have to preserve them. No one even stops and asks like, why do we need Amazonian horned? We've got a million other owls. Well, owls, why do we need these owls? And it's just seen as like, well, they're a species that existed. They should continue to exist. And so for every other demographic and species of living being, we can all agree that if those people disappear, that it's bad and white people only want, that where we can't say that, and part of the reason for that, I think, is well, there's a lot of anti-white sentiment.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  But also,

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  uh, so I use the example of Nigeria. Everyone recognizes that Nigerians or black are the native inhabitants of Nigeria. And so if the native inhabitants go away, we see that as a bad thing. The, the Amazonian horned owl is a native inhabitant of the, I don't think that exists. I'm just, you know, whatever. But they're a native inhabitant of the Amazon, and so they should be there. With white peoples, it's really interesting thing, where what we're told is that white people are not native anywhere. We are not indigenous to anywhere, which is why, and I'm not like making this up.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  There's nowhere in the world you can go where the people who are officially recognized as the indigenous habitants are white. Nowhere. White people do not-

• 1:19:18Tucker Carlson?

  Why was that not genocidal intent?

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Well, that's my point. So it's like, okay, so we're not indigenous anywhere. So where are we supposed to be? Because the other part is-

• 1:19:27Tucker Carlson?

  We're supposed to be dead.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Apparently.

• 1:19:29Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Because we're told that, okay, the, here's the indigenous habitants. And the, the, what's implied every time we talk about indigenous people or just outright said, is that, well, they, this land is really theirs. And so you shouldn't be here. And so what we're saying to white people everywhere is that you shouldn't be here. Well, where should we be? You want us to go to Mars? I mean, are we gonna, like, are we going to Jupiter? Where are we supposed to be? Or do we, are you, are you just gonna throw us into the ocean? And I think the answer is that we really shouldn't be anywhere, which is why we should not be embarrassed or afraid to say that the native-

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  Like, Native Americans are white people of European descent. That is true. The people that we call Native Americans now are not Native Americans. And the reason they're not Native Americans is because they did not form a country called America. They are not native. America is a country. It's not just a place. It's not just a plot of land. It is a country. And before America was formed as a nation, this place was not America. Because America didn't exist. America existed when it was formed. And so if someone can trace their lineage back to the Comanche on the Great Plains,

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  well, that doesn't make you a... You weren't native to America. You're a native to Comanche-ria. You're native to this. You're not native to the country of America. The people who are native to the nation of America, the people who formed this nation, were by and large, almost exclusively, white people of European descent. They are the natives of this country. They're the ones who formed this country. That doesn't mean that other people aren't allowed to live here. It just means that they're the natives. And again, anywhere else in the world, there's nothing controversial about pointing that out. And we're the only place where we're not allowed to say that. But I've been on this... I've been preaching this for a while now. I think we should... We need... And not just as a gimmick.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  Like, I really believe we should reclaim the title of Native American. And not to denigrate the people that we call natives, who I think that they're... It's really interesting to read about their cultures and their history.

• 1:21:52Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, they're amazing people, but not native to here.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  They're not native to America. And they also were... By the way, they're also not native, in the strictest sense, to this hemisphere. Like, they didn't sprout out of the ground. They came here at some point in the past.

• 1:22:06Tucker Carlson?

  From Asia.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  From Asia. They fought brutally with each other over the land. All of the so-called natives that were here and had claimed land when Europeans first started showing up in the late 1400s, early 1500s, all of those people. Had were on that land because they brutally killed who'd who'd been on it before.

• 1:22:26Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  And they raped their women and took their children as slaves.

• 1:22:29Tucker Carlson?

  One wave of conquest supplanted the next.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And and and the law of conquest is what determined.

• 1:22:36Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's it's of course, it's factually true. And by the way, it's been suppressed for many decades by anthropologists and archaeologists, by the official policy of the US government. But cracking the human genome made it impossible to deny the origin of the of the American Indians, which was Asia. It's fine. I mean, I really like the Native Americans.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  I do, too.

• 1:22:56Tucker Carlson?

  Personally, yeah, I'm not against them at all. I feel so bad for them. But you're absolutely 100% right. I just find it so interesting, the coordinated effort to to exterminate white people.

• 1:23:10Tucker Carlson?

  Which is in full flower now, but it's so. You know, it's 1945 is when it started and but it was every part of our society. I mean, I remember at Fox News in the most gentle way trying to say, you know, maybe all lives do matter, or we shouldn't attack whites because they're white. Man, that was like the worst argument I ever got in with it. With the senior executive at the at the network like, that's racist. No, it's actually an argument against racism. It's like everybody on all sides was so brainwashed and just accepting this. And then, of course, it happened. And so I wonder, does it ever let up? Didn't let up in Zimbabwe or South Africa. You like, take the power, kill a bunch of whites, suppress them.

• 1:23:55Tucker Carlson?

  And then, like, 30 years later, you're still blaming them for everything? Will that happen here when this becomes majority non white?

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  I I all indications are that it will continue. I mean.

• 1:24:07Tucker Carlson?

  So how do you respond to it? What's the right way to respond? You don't want some kind of race war. I don't want to wake up every day thinking about my whiteness. I'm not interested in my whiteness, just be honest. I don't like thinking in those terms. Sorry, call me a boomer, which I'm not, but I'm I just don't want to. I want to see people as people. But how do you respond to that? Because you can't allow that. You can't allow people to attack your kids because of their skin color. What the fuck?

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. I think you respond to it. And I think there has been some progress, actually, in this regard. Probably a significant amount of progress.

• 1:24:40Tucker Carlson?

  You've been a big part of that, by the way, on the right, so thank you.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think, I think, I think this is one of the things. Like I said before, there are some victories that conservatives have had.

• 1:24:49Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Uh, I know some, some of the more doomer minded conservatives say, what do we conserve? We haven't conserved anything. Well, I'm not saying it's been a, it's been a, you know, I, I'm not saying it's been, we've been batting a thousand, but I think we have succeeded in terms of.

• 1:25:03Tucker Carlson?

  I think they're referring, I, well, maybe this was what I think, but I do think they're mostly referring to conservative institutions.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:10Tucker Carlson?

  You know, the Republican Congress or some Republican think tank, like those clearly haven't achieved a lot.

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would agree with that. But so, so one, uh, so one, one success that I think that you're starting to see recently is that the,

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  the left used to get a lot of mileage out of, uh, obviously not engaging with arguments, but just labeling them. They would just label the argument. And so they would say, their way of engaging with the argument is say, well, uh, argument's not wrong or right. I don't care about that. The, the argument is an ist or ism. The argument is racist. The argument is, is, is, you know, whatever. Bigoted, Islamophobic, whatever. Um, anti-Semitic. So that they used to, they used to get a lot of mileage out of that. And I think what's happening now is that people are, people are saying, well, I don't care about the labels. Like you can say whatever label you want. It just doesn't, it doesn't mean anything to me. And the reason it doesn't mean anything to me is it's not my fault. It's your fault. When, when you decided that everything fits under that label, the label doesn't mean anything anymore.

• 1:26:06Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  Uh, and I, and I think that's made people more, more fearless. There, there was a time, I mean, look, you go back, like, go back to 2000, not 2000, well, certainly 2000, but even going back to 2020.

• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  In the, the throes of the Floyd hysteria and

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  for a lot of people being called racist was. It's like the worst thing in the world. They were terrified of it.

• 1:26:29Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  Being called racist was it for a lot of people. That was worse than being called like a child molester. I mean, they, they, they would rather be called anything but racist. And there's all this fear, and I think the, the race hustlers got a lot of mileage out of that fear. I think that fear is starting to dissipate.

• 1:26:46Tucker Carlson?

  And yet I still haven't seen many people, especially people who spend a lot of time claiming bias against them. Coming out and making unequivocal statements against anti-white hate. Like, that's the one category. I haven't seen a lot of people say that, like, no. Hating whites is every bit as hating blacks or hating Jews or hating Asians or whatever. Hating a group is immoral. I have seen very few people say that. Barry Weiss is not big on that. Why? Like, why, why can't we just say that? It's all the same. It's all species of the same evil. Like, that, that's my opinion. I think that's the Christian view. Someone correct me if, if I'm wrong, but it's certainly my opinion and it makes it, it's coherent argument, but I never see anybody say that.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I think it's, a lot of that is programming that's been going on for a long time to, to the, the, the way a lot of people are programmed is that to speak specifically in defense of white people as a group.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  To say anything positive about white people as a group is just automatically racist. And I think that this, and it's, it's obviously

• 1:27:54Tucker Carlson?

  Bummer.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Right. It's so, it's absurd. But it's ingrained deeply. I mean, this goes back to I can remember this kind of conditioning in public school in the 90s. I went to public school. I can, I can, you know, we talk about wokeness like it just started in 2015. It didn't. And maybe it was worse in 2015 than it was in 1993. I can remember it in 1993. And I can remember being in school. And the only time that if we ever talked about, like, our ancestors or the people who founded this country or anything like that. It was, it was either in an expressly negative way. Let's talk about all the terrible, terrible things they did. Or if we are going to acknowledge anything good they did, we have to couch it by first saying

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  Well, here's a lot of bad things they did. They also did this, but also the bad. And so that's been going on for such a long time.

• 1:28:46Tucker Carlson?

  But these were, in retrospect, these were the first moves. These were the shock troops of a total takeover and change in the country. Like, this was preparation for what we got under Biden, where it's just like, let's just totally transform the demographics of the country in four years. And then no one will feel free to say anything about it because racism.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:08Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, it feels that way to me. I don't know if it was a strategy or intentional, but it was certainly a coordinated effort, maybe unconsciously, but like, it wasn't an accident and it happened in every white majority country. And that's why there won't be any white majority countries really soon. And so like, what was that? I, I kind of wish I wasn't white in saying this because it's like, it's not self, it's, first of all, it's curiosity. Like, what the hell? You almost never see anything happen globally that's that similar in countries that aren't that similar. Like, the United States is not that similar to the UK or Canada, New Zealand, Australia, but exactly the same thing happened in all of those places.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  Much, much worse in a lot of those places.

• 1:29:53Tucker Carlson?

  Much, Australia, yeah. Oh, if you visit those places, it'll just break your heart. Cause the people are broken, but.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  In, in Canada, they, they are.

• 1:30:02Tucker Carlson?

  Well, Canada is not even a country anymore.

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  And they are, they are overwhelmed with guilt. They, they are so.

• 1:30:08Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they're murdering, the government is murdering tens of thousands of its citizens every year. They're almost all white. And now they're going to be doing it to kids. And by the way, under the maids program, they're harvesting the organs. They're harvesting the organs from the Canadians they kill. So it's like the darkest thing. That's like, I would feel much freer and safer living in China than Canada. I can't believe I'm saying that. I actually love Canada. But that's happening and no one's saying a word about it.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's well, that that in particular is one of those things that it's so dark and so depraved that when you talk about it, I think a lot of people, especially in America, they think you you're making it up or you're exaggerating.

• 1:30:48Tucker Carlson?

  I almost don't talk about it very often because I don't think anyone believes it, but I live right near Canada and I know and I I'm like the only American who really sincerely loves Canada because it's just so beautiful. Not the only, but not many people care about Canada. I do. So I know a lot of Canadians and that's absolutely you'll look it up on the internets. It's there.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  It's it's becoming one of the leading causes of death.

• 1:31:11Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, it is one of the leading causes of death.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  Is is assisted suicide. I mean, just.

• 1:31:15Tucker Carlson?

  The government killing you and not because you have ALS, but because you can't pay your rent and then extending it to children and then harvesting the organs and the blood. I mean, I feel like they're a way bigger threat to the United States than Venezuela. I would be open to an argument in favor of invading and occupying Canada on human rights grounds. I'm not joking even a tiny bit. I think it's one of the darkest countries in the world. And it's such a great country with such great people. I don't know how we can allow this to happen without at least saying something about. I'm not actually arguing for military action, but like maybe threatening it. The they're way worse than Maduro, way worse than Maduro, way worse.

• 1:31:57Tucker Carlson?

  So like, but I'm sure I'll be scolded for how can you say that? Because it's true.

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the the maid program alone is one of the most evil things happening in the world, period.

• 1:32:08Tucker Carlson?

  Murdering your citizens and harvesting their organs on a greater scale than China does? Really? And it's right there?

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  I think one of the things that's happening, why are people ignoring this in America? Well, one thing it's it's people. It's like not your country. So you think it doesn't affect you. I think it does affect us because also also like when you look at Canada and Europe and these guys that we're on the same kind of crazy train. They're just a few train cars up. And so and so that's why you got to pay attention to where they are because we're going to be there. So that's that's one thing.

• 1:32:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, thank you.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  But I think that also for for some conservatives in this country, there's some embarrassment about this because they I think there are plenty of conservatives who've been.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  At least indifferent to the issue of euthanasia and have even kind of, I've had many arguments with so-called conservatives.

• 1:32:55Tucker Carlson?

  Actually?

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  Over the years, not as much now because you see what's happening with made, but over the years with saying that, well, you know, because they get hung up on this, well, it's a personal choice and they just think as conservatives, you just, you cannot oppose a personal choice. You just, you can't do it. And it's kind of libertarian instinct gone way haywire in my mind. And, and so there, but now you can see, now, those of us who have always been against.

• 1:33:24Tucker Carlson?

  So a desperate person has free will? Is that what they're saying?

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  And that's the problem.

• 1:33:29Tucker Carlson?

  These are children. They don't know what they're talking about.

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  And also, and also, so those of us, those of us who are opposed to it, we have been saying for years, like, this is where it's gonna go. Okay, yeah, right now, they, and the other argument for euthanasia was, well, these are people who are in terrible pain and they're at death's door. They've only got days or at most weeks to live anyway. They're in horrible pain. You have no idea what it's like. And so they should be able to, they should be able to have a way out. And, and, and like from an emotional level, like, I get what you're saying. Totally disagree with it. I get what you're saying. Our argument was, was a few arguments, but the big one was, okay, that's what we're do, it's already evil to do that even with someone who's terminally ill. They're doing that now, though. It will

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  not stop there because it never stops there. And once you give the state and the medical establishment, the authority to kill, they will not stop. It always starts with the most justifiable version of it that they can muster, which is still totally unjustifiable in my view. But they always start with the most justifiable version and then next it's like, okay, yeah, but, yeah, we should include people who maybe they're not terminally ill, but they're chronically ill and they're a lot of pain. And, okay, now we've included them. Well, what about, what about mental illnesses? Well, what about this person over there? He's homeless. Yeah, he's not terminally ill, but his life is, has no meaning and he's terrible. He lives on the street. And then, and then, you know, step, step, step, step. Eventually you're killing kids too.

• 1:34:58Tucker Carlson?

  But we've seen this. We've seen this. And by the way, I grew, I'm older than you. And so they were still teaching this in schools when I was a kid, but the Nazi experiment began with euthanasia famously, and it wasn't just on a small scale. It was like hundreds of thousands of people killed. It began, well, the Down syndrome, like, how could your life be worth living? And then it wound up with Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the Warsaw Ghetto. Like, this was a very clear, much-written-about continuum that began with murdering the weakest. And then, again, you know, it ended where it famously ended, which was with mass murder. But Hitler was famous for his euthanasia program. He was also famous

• 1:35:40Tucker Carlson?

  for, like, rounding people up and moving them to new places, like, is now openly being discussed in Gaza. It's like, the whole thing is so bonkers, and it just tells you that human evil is not specific to any group or time or place. It resides in every person. Every person is capable of this kind of behavior, justifying this kind of behavior, and we should all be on guard against it. But like, Hitler was very famous for euthanasia. Did you even learn that in school?

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  No, certainly not.

• 1:36:07Tucker Carlson?

  So funny. Things change. I was in first grade in 1975. And that was like a feature of it. You know, he was bad because he killed people on the basis of, like, their DNA. That's not allowed. And he killed the weakest. Not allowed. And I guess they stopped teaching that.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  And the other thing is, when you give, when you give the medical establishment, when you accept the idea that death is a treatment,

• 1:36:38Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  you have opened the darkest door imaginable.

• 1:36:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  And this is what's so frustrating, is that what is often, what are often decried as slippery slope arguments, people talk about, oh, it's a fallacy, slippery slope. First of all, slippery slope is not a fallacy. It's not a fallacious way of making an argument. All we're trying to show you is that, okay, here's a door you've opened. Okay, you've made an argument to justify something. And what I'm trying to tell you is that I can take that argument intact and use it to justify this thing over here that we both agree is horrific. And so if I can do that, what that tells me is that what it should tell you is that either your argument is bad or the thing you're arguing for is bad, or both. And so that's what the slipper slope thing is.

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  And, and, and that was the point with euthanasia. Once you allow the, the medical establishment to, to use death, murder as a form of medical treatment, you've completely flipped it on its head. Because the whole point of medicine is to heal and treat. And so, so to avoid death and pain. Like, that's the point of it. And now you've flipped it upside down and you've said that death is the treatment. And so now you've just destroyed the whole thing. You've destroyed it. And, uh,

• 1:38:02Tucker Carlson?

  But this has happened, I think that almost all obstetricians are required to commit abortion during their training.

• 1:38:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's right.

• 1:38:10Tucker Carlson?

  So then you wind up with an entire medical corps that's evil.

• 1:38:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:16Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, like there are a lot of evil doctors, not just a few, but a lot.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  Evil and or, I mean, this is the same thing, but they, they have to be very indifferent to human life, which is evil.

• 1:38:29Tucker Carlson?

  So, but did you realize, I did, I certainly didn't realize it really was the COVID vax and the lack of COVID treat, the intentional lack of COVID, letting people die rather than treating their symptoms, which happened extensively across the United States. That sounds like these people aren't just wrong. They're like the worst people and the physicians are the worst people in the country. And for all the nurses, sweet nurses, I love nurses, sorry, um, who like stood up and like, this is wrong. Almost no doctors, a few, a few, Mary Tally Bowden and people like that, but like, not a lot. And I was just like, our doctors are evil, not just mistaken, they're bad. Do you, do you feel that?

• 1:39:14Speaker 01

  I, I think a lot of them are. I mean, certainly, obviously not all of them, but

• 1:39:17Tucker Carlson?

  Not all of them, right?

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, but

• 1:39:19Tucker Carlson?

  But like, not 5%?

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 1:39:22Tucker Carlson?

  We're like 70%.

• 1:39:24Speaker 01

  Well, and, and how about also, there's abortion, euthanasia, COVID, you've gone to, but then also, something that I don't think we should just drop and move on from, because the, speaking of justice, there has not been justice for this, which is that, um, for years, we had the entire medical establishment unanimously almost telling us that, uh, the best thing to do with a, a young boy who's a little bit confused about his identity is to castrate him. And they were doing that. They were doing that to thousands of kids. They were chopping the breasts, uh, they're still doing it in some places. But it was certainly happening at, at scale for a long time. They're chopping the breasts off of 15 year old girls. And, um, it what, to your point, it was not just like a few doctors.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  There's a lot of doctors that were involved in it, a lot more doctors supported it, and a lot of other doctors who maybe didn't like it, but they didn't say a word. They did not speak up against it. This is, this is some of the most insane barbaric Frankenstein bullshit that the world has ever seen. Completely unjustifiable. No one can argue in defense of it. It's the, one of the craziest things that's ever happened in the history of the planet.

• 1:40:37Tucker Carlson?

  It's hard to hear this even, because you're, because you're right.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  Right. And, and it was, it just went on. And the, the, the way that the, the advocates for this, the way that they argued in favor of it, because obviously they couldn't make any substantive argument for castrating kids, what they would always say is, well, look at all these medical establishments. Every single one of them is in favor of it, and they were right. They all were, all of them.

• 1:41:00Tucker Carlson?

  What's so crazy is that, um, you know, female genital mutilation, which is, you know, universal in a few countries, I think Somalia is one of them, but, um, Was very frowned upon by feminists and also by me as a lover of women. And it was a feature of debate on cable news shows like my, most of my life as a cable news debater. FGM, you know, we do a segment on FGM or whatever. Can you believe they're doing this? And like, nobody would defend it. You know, we'd look far and wide. Who will defend female genital, a clitorectomy? Like, who would defend that? And, you know, our bookers tried really hard, but there weren't many. All of a sudden, no one mentioned it again. And that's because they started doing it.

• 1:41:45Tucker Carlson?

  And it's just a reminder that you don't have to be Somali or a Nazi or any, any specific group to participate in evil. Like, this is a human problem. And the second they stop talking about how, what other people did is bad, probably a tip that they're gonna start doing it themselves, right?

• 1:42:04Speaker 01

  And it's also a lesson that it's very easy. I mean, look, nobody wants to admit it now, but at the height of the trans madness, and I don't mean to talk about it totally in the past tense like it's over, it's not. But we are past the height of it.

• 1:42:18Tucker Carlson?

  It feels that.

• 1:42:19Speaker 01

  Um, thank God. But at the height of it, no one wants to admit it now, but

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  almost everyone on the left supported it, vocally so. And most people on the right did, you know, told themselves or insisted that it's not worth saying anything about, it's not that big of a deal.

• 1:42:39Tucker Carlson?

  Totally right. That's exactly true.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  This is a, this is a cultural war sideshow.

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  And so what that tells us is that it's actually very easy for people to convince themselves to go along with the worst evils

• 1:42:55Speaker 01

  that are even conceivable.

• 1:42:56Tucker Carlson?

  No, that's totally right.

• 1:42:57Speaker 01

  It's very easy to convince yourself.

• 1:43:00Tucker Carlson?

  And partisanship is not a good guide to that, I can, as you just said yourself. A lot of people that are on our side, like, ah, I don't want to deal with that.

• 1:43:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's, well, because what you have are, I mean, usually, this is not how it always works out, but

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  you've got the really evil thing being promoted, facilitated by the left, whether it's abortion or euthanasia, whatever else. And then you've got cowardice on the right.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  Refusing to speak up against it until it's very safe to do so, you know, and then, and then everybody does. And that's why it's also been on the trans issue. It's been interesting over the last like year, year and a half to have like people coming out of the woodwork like very, very boldly saying, you know, men, men shouldn't be in women's sports. Like, yeah, thanks for that. Like I could have, we could have used that six years ago.

• 1:43:57Tucker Carlson?

  Well, because this was one of those issues was you and a few other people just changed it. It wasn't Congress. It was you made your movie and you wouldn't stop talking about it. And there were a few others, but they were all in the commentariat. They were all like in the pundit class. It was not, it was no like US Senator who led the charge against this. Some followed in the end, but it came from outside the system. I guess is what I'm saying.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:21Tucker Carlson?

  So that kind of shows, among other things, that the commentariat, which is insufferable, even as I say this is part of it, does matter, matters actually. The opinions you see on all these podcasts, like they over time do change things clearly. So to circle back to where we began, how is this current conflict, the intra-right conflict resolved?

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know. I, if I knew how to do it, I would do it. If I, if I knew how to solve it, if I knew how to bridge the divide and get everyone on the same side again, I would do it. I've tried in my own way. I know. I have not been successful. I have tried.

• 1:45:18Tucker Carlson?

  You're like the, the last person with a foot in each world. It's interesting.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  And I, and I, I value that. Like this, this is for me, this is what people have to understand. I try not to take it personally, the insults. I mean, when you're in this world, you get insulted all the time and you do. You have to, you have to have thick skin. There are certain attacks against me that I should not admit this, but I will, that do.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  Bother me like they do.

• 1:45:47Tucker Carlson?

  Like what? Okay, you opened it. You opened the door. So.

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  Well, charges of well, when people say things that just aren't true. Like, and I have this all the time. And it's the one thing I should be the most used to, I guess.

• 1:45:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  But it just pisses me off.

• 1:46:00Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  It it does because I.

• 1:46:03Tucker Carlson?

  I'm the opposite. It's only the true attacks that upset me.

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  I don't know. Yeah, it shouldn't. But when people are. I see someone's, you know, make a claim, especially if it's someone, it doesn't have to be, but especially if it's someone who I kind of know. Yeah, it's not. But saying something that's like, it's not true. You're ascribing motives to me that it's just, it's so, it's just the exact opposite of what is actually true. And you're not even asking me, you're not reaching out, you're not giving me a chance to speak for myself.

• 1:46:30Tucker Carlson?

  Who did that to you?

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  And I, here's the thing, I talked about loyalty before, I'm so

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  devoted to it that I have people I consider friends who have been attacking me publicly. And I still don't want to attack.

• 1:46:47Tucker Carlson?

  Welcome to my world.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  I still don't want to.

• 1:46:49Tucker Carlson?

  Do you feel like there's a connection between the degree to which you've helped someone and the vehemence of the attack? I've noticed that in just in my life, I'm not whining, and I agree with you. It's I hate. Why I'm being attacked, I'm being threatened, someone shot at my house. Like, I'm never gonna say that. Okay. Though it's true. But I have noticed that a lot of people I've helped are like on the front lines of attacking me or calling me names they know aren't true. Nazi. And I feel like there's a connection. It's not random. It's like if you've helped someone, maybe they resent you for it.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 1:47:23Tucker Carlson?

  Down?

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, there might be some of that. I mean, there's, there's a

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  there's a lot of things. First of all, everybody's very emotional, like.

• 1:47:30Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  And I try to keep that in mind, too. People. I try not to do the thing that pisses me off so much people do to me, which is ascribing motives and say, well, you're really doing this because of this. And and I think sometimes people do, a lot of people do have ulterior motives, clearly. And people are scheming and they're playing games. And also, by the way, we live in a space like this is a business. And and people do this for a living. And so there's also just competitiveness.

• 1:47:56Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's right.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  And that happens.

• 1:47:57Tucker Carlson?

  I guess.

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  But then, at the same time, people also get just pissed off and they get emotional.

• 1:48:01Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's definitely true.

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  And there's, and that's happening on all. So I recognize that, like some of the, so that's why some of the, some of the people that go after me publicly and be like, consider friends. And I'm like, yeah, my phone number, you can call me and you're not. And I try to under like, I do my, maybe it's for my own sanity. I, I try to be as charitable as possible and think like, well, they're just, they're wrong, but they're really angry. And they've got this whole story about me that's not correct. But that, that's what's happening. They're just pissed off and I've been pissed off before and said things I regret. So I, I think, I think a lot of that's happened. To go back to the question of what to do about it.

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  Well, I guess, I guess I don't know why I'm going back to it because I don't have the answer, but I, I think

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  the only thing that can be done is for all of us, if you're on the right, to go back to some of the basics that we talked about at the beginning of the conversation. Like, what is it that we want? What is it that we actually want?

• 1:48:58Tucker Carlson?

  What's the real catechism here? What does it mean to be on the right?

• 1:49:01Speaker 01

  Exactly. What, what are we? It's the classic question about conservatives. What are you trying to conserve? It's a good question. You should be able to answer that. You should be able to answer that. What are you trying to conserve? And everybody needs to ask themselves that and come up with an answer. Come up with, write your list, write it out if you have to, whatever. Come up with your list.

• 1:49:16Tucker Carlson?

  I'm gonna do this. This is my, this is my calling right here.

• 1:49:19Speaker 01

  And, and everyone should have their list. And then we should compare notes. And if our lists match up, like we want the same things, we're trying to conserve and preserve the same things, then the only way forward is, is with that, is for us to realize that like, let's, let's reorient towards that. Make, make that the goal. And, and remember that even when we disagree, we're gonna have disagreements. But we're only disagreeing about how to do this thing that we both want done. And, and and I think that's the way forward. Now, on the other hand, maybe you start looking at your list and you, and you realize that I actually don't even want the same things as these, as these people. Okay. Well, then we're not on the same side. And that's very clarifying, too. I think that there are people-

• 1:50:03Tucker Carlson?

  Do you feel, that's happening in my mind. I'm like, I, we don't have anything in common, actually. I thought we did, but we don't. Is that happening to you?

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  I, there are certainly some of that. I, I think that there are definitely people who just want, don't, don't, don't want the same things at all. They don't have the same fundamental goals. I think that's certainly happening. And that's part, that's part of the clarifying. That's part of the-

• 1:50:27Tucker Carlson?

  Is that bad or good?

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Well, clarity is good.

• 1:50:30Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  Clear. I think, I think we need clarity.

• 1:50:35Speaker 01

  But for me, like I said, the only person, and I believe this wholly, I try to live by it. The only person who can speak to your intentions is you. The only person who can tell anyone what's in your mind is you. And so if someone says to me-

• 1:50:47Tucker Carlson?

  That's why I try to interview people.

• 1:50:49Speaker 01

  Right. So, exactly.

• 1:50:50Tucker Carlson?

  You're allowed to speak for yourself.

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  And so, I've given my list of what it is that I want to conserve and preserve.

• 1:50:59Tucker Carlson?

  Can you just, can you in an abbreviated form just run through it really quick one more time? Cause I think I agree with it.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Abbreviated is always a trouble for me.

• 1:51:07Tucker Carlson?

  Well, no, you don't have to abbreviate. We just say it again. Like, what are the thing? You're saying there's left, right, what even, I don't even know what that means anymore. But like, people who share your values believe what?

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  They believe in objective truth.

• 1:51:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  Okay, they believe in truth. Uh, number one, that there, that there is a, that there is a truth.

• 1:51:31Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, I'm gonna write this down.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  And-

• 1:51:33Tucker Carlson?

  Hold on, hold on now. Okay, objective truth.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, objective truth.

• 1:51:38Tucker Carlson?

  Whether or not there, can I just add one caveat? I'm not always convinced I know what the objective truth is. I've certainly been wrong. But I know it exists.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And that's, and that's exactly the point. We can disagree about what the truth is. We're gonna have those disagreements.

• 1:51:53Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  But, but we have to be able to agree that there is a truth.

• 1:51:56Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  To begin with. And when you're talking to someone who's a moral relativist, they're on the left. You can't even agree on that. So there's no conversation to be had. We cannot even have a conversation. That's, and that is the, that's the problem. That's our problem in our culture. Um, and even, and even above the truth, the reason why there's an objective truth is that there is a, that there is God. The God, that there is a, a God. There is God. And, um, and he has designed the universe and everything and everybody in it.

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  And that's the the source, that's the wellspring of truth. You know, that that's why there is a truth, because God designed it a certain way, and so it is. Like, that's the the fundamental bare bones truth is that God has designed it this way. This is that this is God's universe. And that is the truth. So um, so I think I think.

• 1:52:49Tucker Carlson?

  That's number one.

• 1:52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's number one. And then what do we try?

• 1:52:53Tucker Carlson?

  Everything flows from that.

• 1:52:54Speaker 01

  Everything flows from that. What are we try? But in America, as American conservatives. What are we trying to conserve? We're trying to conserve American identity, our national identity. We're trying to conserve the institution of the family. Uh, which is the the foundation of the country and of of civilization. We're trying to conserve the institution of the marriage, which is the foundation of the family. So this is the foundation of the foundation.

• 1:53:29Tucker Carlson?

  Which is the foundation of American identity.

• 1:53:31Speaker 01

  Right. And we're trying to conserve all those things. And then and then at a broader level, we're trying to conserve Western civilization itself.

• 1:53:42Tucker Carlson?

  Which grows from, so if if you were to sum it up, you could say, objective truth derived from a belief that this is all created, we are not the creators.

• 1:53:52Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:53:54Tucker Carlson?

  And the the family, the family unit, husband, wife, children, which is the basis of all human civilization. So, objective truth, family?

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I think I think that's.

• 1:54:08Tucker Carlson?

  If I were writing this on my hand for the test, okay?

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:12Tucker Carlson?

  Probably in here, so the teacher couldn't see it, it would just be objective truth, family.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I would also put national identity for, if we're talking about American conservatives, which is what we're talking about.

• 1:54:22Tucker Carlson?

  But then the question goes like, what's that?

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's a and and that's also a debate in a sense. I think there are some basic things, but but uh but again, that's like, OK, as long as we agree.

• 1:54:36Tucker Carlson?

  That we need one?

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  That we that we yeah, we can't so uh we have a culture. Right? We need to have a culture and multiculturalism cannot be the cult. That's not a culture.

• 1:54:47Tucker Carlson?

  There has to be a unifying set of beliefs or customs that keep the country from breaking apart. Otherwise, it will break apart.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  So and that's the point. So the things there, if we if someone looks at that, like that's I'm speaking for myself and not just myself, I think a lot, but but that's that's my North Star. And if you look at that and you say, well, I want the same things like I I so I'm fighting for.

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  Then you are on my side, period. Like, we we are on the same side and and we'll have a lot of arguments, again, about how to do that, how to achieve that. We'll have a lot of arguments about it. And those could be like fruitful arguments. Those don't have to be angry, nasty, personal arguments. They could just be discussions, uh, you know, as as as adults. And we'll do that, but we're on the same side. However, if you look at that and you say, you know, well, I don't need I don't believe in any of that. Like, I don't. Well, I don't believe in God. I don't like truth. You know, we all have our own truth. The family. I think the family is like, you know, marriage doesn't matter. We don't need the family. If you and a lot of people feel that way.

• 1:55:56Speaker 01

  So, fine, you're allowed to feel that way. We're not on the same side at all. No matter what else you believe. I and and then I might agree with you on then you might go on and from there and say, yeah, but I really think that gun rights are important, and I think we need to restrict immigration and I want to abolish the income tax or whatever. I'd agree with you on those points, but we're not fundamentally on the same side.

• 1:56:17Tucker Carlson?

  It's so smart. I I don't want to blow anyone's mind, but I, you know, travel a lot, talk to people for a living. You would be amazed by the people I know who agree with you vehemently on and sincerely on those two points, and they're not all on the so on the right. At all, which is kind of interesting. So it does feel like this is a, there's like a true realignment happening now. I just know in my own life, the people who reach out to me, in some cases are people you would expect. In some cases, they're not all people you would expect. And they're just, they're hearing the same music and they're motivated by the same impulses. And that is one, a belief that we are living in a world we didn't create. These rules aren't ours.

• 1:57:03Tucker Carlson?

  It's, it's basically the, the nature argument, like you can't ignore nature because you're not in charge of it. You cannot ignore natural law because you didn't make it, because God made it. A and B, in the end, your only true protection is your family and your deepest connection is to your family. And that needs to be protected above all, which I think is a variety of what you were just saying. The people who reach out to me who, who believe that, man, it's, it would blow your mind. So I guess what I would say is it feels like a lot of our politics is artificial. It's inorganic. It was these divisions in some cases are, you know, are real.

• 1:57:41Tucker Carlson?

  In some cases, they were created in order to get us to not see that we have a lot in common with other people. Does that make sense?

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  I think so. Look, and if someone, the words left and right are labels that we put on, on things.

• 1:57:58Tucker Carlson?

  Well, people have always said that, but I never really believed it. I was like, that's bullshit, but.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  It's, it's just, it's a way of categorizing and organizing things so we can speak about them coherently.

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  But sometimes the labels that we use, you know, we, we have to, we have to

• 1:58:17Speaker 01

  shift it over. There might be people who, so, but like, anyone who you've talked to, who we would say is on the left, who agrees with all that, well, then I would say they're not on the left.

• 1:58:27Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I agree.

• 1:58:28Speaker 01

  You know, they, they might, they, they might, they might even think they still are, but they're not. Um, and so they're, uh, they're, they're over on this side and, uh, you can kind of call it whatever you want. I'm saying right, conservative. We could come up with any team, team name we want.

• 1:58:45Tucker Carlson?

  I guess what I'm saying is that your side is bigger than you think it is.

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. I, for, for the, during the, when we're talking about the trans issue, and I've sort of talked about the teams, what I've come to, what I've come to call the side that's against all the trans madness is team sanity, you know?

• 1:59:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:03Speaker 01

  Um, it's just we're for sanity, like, on this issue, we're sane people. And fu- fully acknowledging that on that issue, there were people who, uh, I don't agree with them like anything else, but are sane on this.

• 1:59:19Tucker Carlson?

  I can think of some of them. I used to have this woman on. Oh, I really liked her. I don't think she ever liked me at all. I can't remember her name. She was a radical lesbian feminist. And every, she would always come into the studio on the trans issue years ago, and she was like, I could, I could hear her thinking, I can't believe I'm in the same room as this monster. But we were so aligned on it. And I always wondered, like, why did she care so? I mean, she, we must have been more aligned than either of us realized if she cared that much about it, right?

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 1:59:54Tucker Carlson?

  You must have dealt with a million people like this.

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And this is a conversation I would have sometimes with the, because I, it's very strange bedfellows. I would find myself aligned on that issue with some feminists, like left, far left feminists.

• 2:00:07Tucker Carlson?

  But the, the radical ones.

• 2:00:09Speaker 01

  Hmm, yeah. Um, but the, the point I would try to make to them, I think mostly unsuccessfully, is that, okay, if you, if we agree on this, then I, I, I think, like, if you can see the truth on this, then I think we should agree on a lot more, you know?

• 2:00:25Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's my instinct, too.

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:00:27Tucker Carlson?

  What would they say?

• 2:00:30Speaker 01

  Well, for me, I'm not the guy to make an argument to feminists. They're not gonna listen to me. There might be someone who can be kind of the-

• 2:00:38Tucker Carlson?

  I think you could convert a few, Matt Walsh.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  I don't know. My track record would say otherwise, but the point is that like, the argument I would make to them is that, actually, I know you call yourself a feminist, the reason why we have this problem is because of feminism. Feminism is actually the root of this problem. And so if you agree with me on this, then I think really you are critiquing feminism. So you're not a feminist. Get it together, come over here. And they didn't find that. That was mansplaining.

• 2:01:12Tucker Carlson?

  That was definitely, they weren't like, ready to run to the patriarchy after that.

• 2:01:16Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 2:01:17Tucker Carlson?

  That's a shame. So here's my last question. And again, it begins where we began, which is the fact that you're like at the center of all of this. I really do think you're the last person on the right, you know, the official, well-known official podcaster right, who has, you know, a foot in two camps. And so it's just the pressure on you, I've just noticed it, has been almost unbelievable. And you've bore up under it so impressively. But how do you keep yourself from becoming a hater when you're under just relentless assault? And not just your views, but your motives, your character, when people you really like or your friends are denouncing you.

• 2:02:00Tucker Carlson?

  And most people live an entire lifetime without that experience. It's an unusual experience. And it can drive some like totally crazy, like they become foaming at the mouth haters. How have you avoided that?

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  Uh, maybe the honest answer is I have not avoided it well. But I, but I, but I, but I think that, I mean, look, the, the real, the correct answer is prayer. I mean, you know, you have to have a rich prayer life.

• 2:02:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  And I, I do have a prayer life. I don't think it's as rich as it should be. I think, and I think that's,

• 2:02:35Speaker 01

  I think like a lot of people, you kind of go through waves. I go through waves and then I go through, and here's what happens with me, and I think it's probably relatable, is that-

• 2:02:45Speaker 01

  When you're really frustrated and stressed out and things are not really working out how you want them to, um, your, your kind of prayer life can dry up too. And it start, because that starts feeling, everything just starts feeling kind of dry. Everything starts feeling like nothing's working, no one's listening, you feel frustrated. No, no one in your life is like hearing what you're saying and you start to feel like God is not hearing you either. And it's just this kind of frustration and then, and then it snowballs, you know, and then it becomes a, it's a self fulfilling prophecy because now you're, everything's feeling, everything feels kind of dried up and frustrated. And so that's what happens with your prayer life. And then everything gets worse because of that. Um, and so those are the, the moments where you have to be very intentional and say, I'm really annoyed and frustrated.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  I don't feel like praying. I don't even know if God's listening. He's always listening, but in a frustrated moment, you feel like he's not. Um, and that's when you have to realize that and then reorient yourself and become, you know, and for me, when I have those moments, I've, I've found that just being more structured, like sometimes you have to, like anything in life that, that is good. You have to kind of force yourself to do it sometimes. You have to get into a habit.

• 2:03:53Tucker Carlson?

  What's your structure if, if you don't mind?

• 2:03:55Speaker 01

  Well, I think there's, you set up a, a time for prayer in the morning, like you set up just times. This is my, this is my time when I'm going to pray, you know?

• 2:04:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:04:06Speaker 01

  And hopefully it's multiple times a day. Um, but, and when you have a really rich prayer life and you're, you're in a good flow, it's like you're, you're a constant prayer. It's like, it's a constant, it's a constant state of going to God, even if you're not on your knees.

• 2:04:24Tucker Carlson?

  Rejoice in everything, never stop praying.

• 2:04:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, I think that, you know, things like your, your physical posture when you're, when you're praying, that, that can matter. And especially if you're, if you're going through a, if you're going through a dry spell in your prayer life, I think like actually knee, kneeling, being on your knees, um, does matter. And you can pray without being on your knees, but it can kind of help to orient you in the right way. And it's kind of your, your body telling your mind something, which is that you are submitting yourself, like you're on your knees. You are submitting yourself to a power that is greater than you. That's why you're doing this. And so you're reminding yourself that there is someone greater than you who you are appealing to. And so I think stuff like that can can help also.

• 2:05:12Tucker Carlson?

  How much time do you spend on X?

• 2:05:14Speaker 01

  Too much.

• 2:05:15Tucker Carlson?

  Meaning?

• 2:05:17Speaker 01

  Like way too much. I don't know.

• 2:05:19Tucker Carlson?

  What effect does that have?

• 2:05:22Speaker 01

  Not not good. I mean, it's also hard for me because it's my job. And not like my job, you know, it's like a not like there's a I have to punch in the clock and go on X. But part of the job is to be clued in. And I'm also creating content every day. I do a show five days a week, four days a week now.

• 2:05:41Speaker 01

  And so this is where the conversation is happening. This is where all the all the sort of content is, all the things I want to talk about.

• 2:05:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:47Speaker 01

  I also use it as kind of a.

• 2:05:51Speaker 01

  You know, it's it's like I'll start a conversation on X and then I'll talk about it on the show and it's just kind of this feeds off of each other thing.

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  But the problem, and all that is good, and I'm glad that it's there for that reason. But the problem is this stuff sucks you in. Like it just sucks you in and.

• 2:06:12Tucker Carlson?

  Because I bet I'm just guessing you're not into, say pornography or cocaine or.

• 2:06:16Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 2:06:18Tucker Carlson?

  I knew that. So like for a man like you, you're, you know, you don't, you're not ruled by your addictions, but do you feel like X?

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  Well, it's weird. Here's the weird thing for me.

• 2:06:33Speaker 01

  The the amount of time I spend on it sometimes would would seem like an addict. However, when I go on vacation and I say I'm leaving, I'm not going to be doing a show, I'm out of the, I'm going to be out, I'm not paying attention to anything. Then I go on vacation.

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  I put the phone down. I have zero desire to pick it up. I I don't even find myself like, ah, I got to find out what's happening. I put it down. I'm on vacation. I have no desire. In fact, it's the opposite. When I come back, I have to force myself.

• 2:07:02Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 2:07:02Speaker 01

  To like get into this again. And I'm also, it's ridiculous. I'm like forcing myself to tweet because I got to get in the flow to do the job. And so that tells me it's not really an addiction. It's something even worse, I guess, because. When I have the chance to walk away from it, I so eagerly do. It's like my soul telling me like you got this. This is what I actually long for is not this.

• 2:07:26Tucker Carlson?

  I think that's a really good sign.

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  I think it's a good sign.

• 2:07:30Tucker Carlson?

  Do you feel like when you, I'll tell you how I feel when I go on it. Cause I know so many of the people who are tweeting their opinions. It's like seeing all of your acquaintances naked. I feel like people reveal so much about themselves and it's like, wow, you don't look great naked. I mean, I never really thought about you naked, but now that I can see it, you should put some clothes back on. That's the feeling I have every time I go on there.

• 2:07:53Speaker 01

  That is a, that's, that's an interesting way of putting it. And I think that's true. I mean, that's, it used to be. Right. If you were like a prominent person in some field.

• 2:08:06Speaker 01

  If you ever gave your opinions publicly, depending on the field, you might never give your opinion publicly. But if you ever did, it was like in a structured, it was a very intentional kind of way. And

• 2:08:18Tucker Carlson?

  I try and stick to that.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  And now, and now we have, it used to be like, it's hard for people, for kids these days to realize this. But it used to be that we would have all these like famous people and celebrities. And most of them, we never knew what they thought about anything. We had no clue what they thought. We didn't even know what their personalities were. We only saw them because they were throwing a football or because they were acting in a thing or whatever.

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  And now, yeah, we just know everyone's opinion up to date on every little

• 2:08:46Tucker Carlson?

  Whoever thought that, I mean, if you told me 10 years ago that like all the people in charge were thoroughly banal and conventional at best. Like they had nothing interesting to say. They never thought about anything ever. Like Hillary Clinton had not a single thought in her head. And that some guy called Orrin McIntyre, whoever that is, would turn out to be, you know, or you, or like all these people who 10 years ago were not. They're very far from what we might think of as a public intellectual. All of a sudden they're purely through the force of their ideas and the clarity of their expression. We're kind of defining the terms. That is a huge change. It's totally disempowered.

• 2:09:27Tucker Carlson?

  The poobah class and it's given rise to this like genuinely interesting bubbling conversation. Like at best, do you feel that?

• 2:09:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. Which is why, I mean, we talk about social media, talk about X and.

• 2:09:45Speaker 01

  I don't want to talk as though I think it's a, it's a overall like nothing but a negative because I do think it allows.

• 2:09:51Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, total. No, no, it's a mixed blessing for sure.

• 2:09:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, and that, and that is true. Like it allows, and it obviously has created a situation where the institutions that used to control the conversation completely now, now don't control it at all.

• 2:10:09Tucker Carlson?

  And they're like, they've shown that they're just not impressive that like in the true and fabled marketplace of ideas, they're like a rummage sale, actually.

• 2:10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, they have nothing to say.

• 2:10:21Tucker Carlson?

  No, but like, who would buy that crap? It's just not, once we see it in its entirety, once the mystique has been stripped away, they have nothing to offer. Like they're just totally pedestrian. And then these, I mean, do you ever see random Twitter accounts? You have no idea who this is. It's not someone who's anyone's ever heard of, making a point that's so profound that like you can't get it out of your head. Does that ever happen to you?

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely. I was just thinking, I saw, I don't remember who the guy was. But yeah, I read it. I read a tweet a couple of days ago and it was this lengthy, like really well-written analysis of something I can't even remember. But it's like a random Twitter.

• 2:10:58Tucker Carlson?

  Like what?

• 2:11:00Speaker 01

  And in a way, it's kind of sad because I read that. I'm like, well, I don't know. This guy's a philosopher. He should be in a different age.

• 2:11:06Tucker Carlson?

  No, but affirmative action has kept them all out. So this is what, this is where they went. So you're like, well, you know, we don't have a meritocracy anymore and the smartest, most impressive people literally can't get jobs or grants or into college. So like, what are they doing? And they're sitting tweeting.

• 2:11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Tweeting these like morsels of incredible wisdom in some cases.

• 2:11:25Tucker Carlson?

  But you know, truly.

• 2:11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and, but this is, as you said, mixed blessing. The problem is that in between the morsels of great wisdom, you've got nothing but just slop and, and all this. Right. And so the best thing we can do is things like keep, keep your prayer life alive and control, you have to have self-control in, in, in how you interact with this. One of the worst things, and everyone does this, I do it. I think it's the worst habit that almost everyone has now.

• 2:12:00Tucker Carlson?

  I'm sure I do it too then.

• 2:12:01Speaker 01

  Which is.

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  The first thing you do when you wake up in the morning is check your phone.

• 2:12:08Tucker Carlson?

  I don't do that.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  Well, then you're you're in better shop shape than I am and a lot of people.

• 2:12:13Tucker Carlson?

  Never. And that's that is like the wor- I used to, that's like having blueberry pancakes for breakfast, which was a habit that was very hard for me to break. But once I did it, I realized that framed my whole day in the wrong, the wrong way. Have you ever started the day with blueberry pancakes?

• 2:12:31Speaker 01

  I have.

• 2:12:31Tucker Carlson?

  You can't get past it. Everything in your day is defined by blueberry pancakes.

• 2:12:38Speaker 01

  Why? Because you're longing for the?

• 2:12:39Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, you're hungry all day. You feel shitty. You're lethargic. Like, just don't eat till noon and everything is better. But I grew up in a blueberry pancake world, like 100% blueberry pancakes and a cigarette. And that's not a good way to start the day. And I feel like social media are even worse than that.

• 2:12:57Speaker 01

  Just do the cigarette. Don't do the pancakes.

• 2:12:59Tucker Carlson?

  That is, I can't say this, that is still a great way to start the day. I don't care what anybody says. It's just a fact.

• 2:13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, but I.

• 2:13:08Tucker Carlson?

  Whatever. Sorry. Totally kidding.

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  The, the, yeah, starting the day by looking at your phone is so horrifically bad. I do it all the time.

• 2:13:19Tucker Carlson?

  Actually?

• 2:13:20Speaker 01

  I do. I shouldn't.

• 2:13:22Tucker Carlson?

  That's like the one thing you can't, just don't do that. That's easy. Just like, because you use it as your alarm, right?

• 2:13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, my phone. Yeah.

• 2:13:29Tucker Carlson?

  Of course. Everybody does. I do too. We don't allow phone usage in the bedroom except for the alarm. That's like ironclad rule. Get up, get a cup of coffee, get your face in a Bible, or just stare out the window, kiss your dogs. Anything but that.

• 2:13:44Speaker 01

  I totally agree. In fact, just this morning, I woke up. First thing I did is I checked my phone and I went on X. And it was just in my feed. It just happened. Like, the first thing I read, I just opened my eyes 30 seconds ago. The first thing I read was like in my feed, something popped up and it was like, Matt Walsh is a coward. I'm starting my day with that. Like, the first thing that enters my eyeballs. I don't know. And then I put my phone down. I'm like, why did I do that?

• 2:14:15Tucker Carlson?

  You're in a hotel room though, right?

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  Hotel room.

• 2:14:18Tucker Carlson?

  Because there's no chick there. That's, that's, that's why it's so important to be married.

• 2:14:22Speaker 01

  That is, yeah, that's true also.

• 2:14:25Tucker Carlson?

  Right?

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  Well, and there's no kids, like.

• 2:14:27Tucker Carlson?

  Totally.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:30Tucker Carlson?

  Matt Walsh, some of us, probably not a huge group, but some of us, just kidding, really appreciate what you're doing and your clear thinking and your self-control, and especially your summation of what actually matters. So, thank you very much.

• 2:14:47Speaker 01

  Appreciate it, thank you.

• 2:14:53Tucker Carlson?

  You don't need to be an economist to see what's happening. The dollar is in trouble. It's getting weaker. It's sad, but we're not in charge of it. So we have to respond appropriately in ways to protect our families. When paper money dies, it's going to be replaced by programmable digital currency, or gold. Gold survives. The same Americans who think they're protecting themselves with gold are the ones getting ripped off by big gold dealers. After we left corporate media, we got offered tens of millions of dollars to promote gold companies. How do they get the money to spend that much on marketing? Because they're scamming their customers. We didn't want anything to do with that. So we sought an honest broker, and together we formed a precious metals company that you can actually trust. It's called Battalion Metals. At BattalionMetals.com, we publish actual spot prices.

• 2:15:33Tucker Carlson?

  We're totally transparent about the vig, what we take, and we treat everyone with honesty. So if you've been watching what's happening, you know it's not just about money, it's about sovereignty and holding something that endures and cannot be manipulated or taken from you. So if you've been waiting for the right time to act, this is it. Visit BattalionMetals.com.