S2E38: From Skeptic to Advocate: Becca Cramer Returns | Talk Tracks

In this episode of The Talk Tracks, Becca Cramer, a nuclear engineer, writer, and skeptic turned believer, returns to the studio to share what she has learned since her first investigation into The Telepathy Tapes. What began as an attempt to debunk the claims surrounding spelling and telepathy has since evolved into a commitment to advocating for nonspeakers and challenging the assumptions that continue to limit their access to communication. After meeting spellers, families, and communication partners, and engaging directly with researchers on both sides of the debate, Becca has gained a deeper understanding of apraxia, motor planning, authorship, and the difference between support and control. Becca and Ky explore why the validity of spelling must be considered separately from the question of telepathy, and why the possibility of influence does not mean a nonspeaker’s words are not their own. Together, they examine the emerging research, the institutional resistance that remains, and what must change for nonspeakers’ communication, autonomy, and lived experiences to be taken seriously. _______ Join The Telepathy Tapes Backstage Pass to get ad-free episodes, never-before-heard interviews, behind-the-scenes documentary footage, and access to our private Discord community. This is your invitation to come closer. To help shape what’s next. To be more than a listener… to be a co-creator of this paradigm shift. So if you’ve felt moved, if you’ve felt seen, if you’ve felt the call, subscribe today and join us: thetelepathytapes.com. https://thetelepathytapes.com/ _______ Thank you to our sponsors! Alloy http://myalloy.com/ - Try the original estrogen-powered M4 skincare from Alloy. Visit myalloy.com http://myalloy.com/ and use code TAPES for $20 off your first order! Fabletics http://Fabletics.com/tapes - Shop now at Fabletics.com/tapes http://Fabletics.com/tapes to get 70- 80% off everything when you sign up as a new VIP. Batch http://hellobatch.com/TAPES - Go to hellobatch.com/TAPES http://hellobatch.com/TAPES and use code TAPES at checkout for 30% off sitewide! Luminara https://www.luminara.care/ - If you’re curious about energy healing and ready to experience it for yourself, Luminara is offering 20% off your first session for listeners of The Telepathy Tapes. Just go to luminara.care https://www.luminara.care/ and use code TAPES20. Quince https://www.quince.com/tapes - Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to Quince.com/tapes https://www.quince.com/tapes for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Ka'Chava https://kachava.com/ - Go to kachava.com https://kachava.com/ and use code TAPES for 15% off your first order. BiOptimizers https://bioptimizers.com/tapes - Make this the year you finally get your sleep, your energy, and yourself back. Get 15% off at bioptimizers.com/tapes https://bioptimizers.com/tapes when you use my code, TAPES. Shopify http://shopify.com/tapes - Start your business today with the industry’s best business partner, Shopify. Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial today at Shopify.com/tapes http://shopify.com/tapes. Ruggable http://ruggable.com/ - Refresh your home. Get 10% off your first order, sitewide, with promo code TAPES at RUGGABLE.com http://ruggable.com/. Zenni http://zenni.com/podcast - If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, go to Zenni.com/podcast http://zenni.com/podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off your first order. Lola Blankets https://lolablankets.com/ - For a limited time, our listeners can get 40% OFF select Lola Blankets products with code TAPES at checkout, go to lolablankets.com https://lolablankets.com/. One Skin https://www.oneskin.co/TAPES - Get 15% off OneSkin with the code TAPES at https://www.oneskin.co/TAPES #oneskinpod. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ky Dickens?

  Hi everyone, I'm Kai Dickens and welcome to the Talk Tracks, brought to you weekly by TTT Media. In this series, we explore the threads that weave together our understanding of reality, science, spirituality, consciousness, and even unexplained phenomena. Because every era has ideas once dismissed as impossible until someone was willing to investigate them seriously. And on this show, we do just that.

• 0:28Speaker 01

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• 0:59Ky Dickens?

  If you want to see our incredible guests in person, we have a video version of this episode on the Telepathy Tapes YouTube page. Today, we're with Becca Cramer, an unbelievable person who is a former nuclear engineer. And when she first heard the Telepathy Tapes, she did what few people do, which is go back and look at all the initial research around spelling, telepathy, non-speaking autism, and ended up on the other side, a very different person, and now an activist. So I'm thrilled to have you here, Becca.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  So good to be here.

• 1:26Ky Dickens?

  You've had such a journey. And some people remember that you were in our Talk Tracks last year about your journey and spelling. But for those who didn't hear that Talk Tracks episode, could you just give us your version of your backstory? How you ended up on this couch?

• 1:41Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. I listened to the Telepathy Tapes, loved it. I'm writing a book about, honestly, it's about spirituality and pain and science. And I thought, okay, this telepathy is incredible. Got to include this. And I started researching it, tried to debunk it, and couldn't.

• 2:00Ky Dickens?

  So you were a scientist, you were a nuclear engineer. So maybe talk about your background, your view, like your mindset, like are you pretty rational? Do you like to have a lot of evidence? You know, talk about just you and your career path and how that's influenced how you see the world.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  So I'm a nuclear engineer by training. Worked in the nuclear industry for over seven years. Worked in healthcare after that.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  I grew up Mormon and went from Mormon to seeker to atheist. Then I had a bunch of health issues and chronic pain, which sort of gently nudged me back into seeking mode. And that, I was in that headspace when I found the telepathy tapes.

• 2:50Ky Dickens?

  And just to ask you about that, because I have some friends who are ex Mormon. And how, like, what happened to your, your thoughts around belief and believing? When you left the Mormon church, like, what lead, because it's hard. I mean, I think the Mormon community can be wonderfully grounding for a lot of people because there's such a sense of community and love and looking out for each other. And I know it can be extremely hard to leave. So are you able to talk about what made you leave? And what happened in your mind and heart in that process?

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And I, much of my family is still Mormon and very close to a lot of them. And like you said, it can be very grounding for some people. And I've just gotten to this very flexible view of belief. But for a long time, I was very staunchly against it. I felt

• 3:37Ky Dickens?

  Against what?

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Against religion, organized religion. I felt it was very divisive. I felt like I had been fooled. And I felt like people I loved were being controlled by malicious people rather than a higher power. And I've learned more since and my views continue to change. But yeah, it was, like, I will not be fooled again, you know, is the feeling. And I've met a lot of people like that. Like, I was, so I considered myself an atheist for a long time. And most of the people in my life are still atheists.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  So it's getting into this space while, you know, keeping my feet on the ground.

• 4:23Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  And continuing to love the people I love on both sides has been really interesting and I, I love it. But it is hard because spirituality is such a personal question.

• 4:35Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  It's such a personal thing. But I think it's been harmful how much we've put it into the closet and how, how little we let ourselves talk about it because it's such an essential part of being human, I think. And I don't think you have to have God necessarily to be spiritual.

• 4:53Ky Dickens?

  No, yeah. Yeah, and I think that was beautiful because I wanted to really understand what happened to around belief, because I think one thing I've learned in this journey with the telepathy tapes is most of us don't want to be fooled in either direction. You know, I think the majority of people don't want to be just spoon fed something and told this is real, believe it, or be told nothing's real, you can't believe anything, and you're silly, you're uneducated. I think the truth for most of us is somewhere between. And I was so grateful that, you know, here's a stranger, but it's kind of what I went through. Because I remember when I first started hearing, oh, well, spelling can't be real and this and this, I went through my own like cognitive dissonance for about eight months, going through all the paperwork, all the research, trying to figure out, and then trying to stack it

• 5:35Ky Dickens?

  up with what I've seen of non speakers saying stuff their parents didn't know, typing about things in a cadence that their parents do not have. And it was like, what? And then the telepathy, to your point, spending so many time with families who were like, they knew when I was feeling sad and would start crying, they knew where things were hidden, I would think about where the Christmas presents were and they'd go get it, like all sorts of stuff where I'm like, I can't add this up. So I think to even like further the conversation, there's two different things going on that the non speaking community is up against. One is their their communication being valid, right? That spelling is an affirmed a communication and these individuals are authoring their own thoughts, not being joysticked by some parent or whatever it is, you know, or being cued or being prompted.

• 6:19Ky Dickens?

  And then there's a second element, which is telepathy. And I guess to start, do telepathy and spelling go hand in hand, or are they different things that can exist separately?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  I think it's prudent to separate them. So I was arguing the other day on the phone, we were having a lively professional discussion with one of the leading researchers that's anti spelling. And we're talking and the conversation basically gets down to, you know, thinking they're being cued, and I'm arguing that they're not being cued to be cued in that way, that's impossible. And it gets down to, I think telepathy is more likely than this queuing theory that's been established. But then in that moment, I have this light bulb of, oh, my gosh, it doesn't matter. You don't have to say, yes, telepathy is happening in order for for the communication to be valid.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  And so it's happening as we're arguing about, you know, is it telepathy? Is it queuing?

• 7:19Speaker 02

  But what really matters and what's really going to move the needle for non-speakers is, are their words valid? And what I'm shocked to find is, speech and language pathologist Asha, they believe that every word spelled by a non-speaker is influenced, that it's controlled. Still, they can see all these very independent typers. And when I say very independent, yeah, they still have a partner in the room. They're not even being touched. But because there's this potential for influence, and they've just grabbed on to this one test, that, you know, they have to do a message passing test. It's not appropriate science.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  But at the same, you're not even, we're not even asking the right researchers. So, we all want to be evidence-based. That's important. Evidence-based is good. What we know is that influence is possible between a speller and their partner. We don't know how that influence is happening. There's very convincing information that it's probably telepathy. But to stay scientific, we can say that is an unknown, that the influence is just a black box, an unknown. And we can do science like that. You know, you identify your unknowns and you move forward.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  So we say influence is possible. We can look into that further. But then, spelling, saying that it's valid, saying that it's beneficial, saying that they are choosing to spell those words, that can all be separated from telepathy. And it needs to be, because I think we don't want to link it too strongly to telepathy, because that's going to be really hard to study. You know, evidence-based is critical.

• 9:16Ky Dickens?

  I think that's true, that they can be very separate. You know, I know a few non-speakers who say, "Telepathy's not a part of anything I've ever understood to be true." And then other non-speakers who are like, "Yes, this is absolutely a part, and I can hear voices all the time." And just, but, that doesn't mean that what someone is thinking, you're always going to spell. And that's why it's such an important thing to call this out. Because when I've talked to CRPs, they say, "If I can empty my mind completely and not be thinking any thoughts, it's essential to then have..."

• 9:47Ky Dickens?

  That their true thoughts and feelings coming out. I mean, have you heard that at all?

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Definitely, yes, I've definitely heard that, that it that it helps to consider your internal experience when you're being the partner so that you're not influencing them. And and you could say, OK, influencing them by queuing, influencing them by telepathy. Either one, we can all agree influence is possible. But where it becomes madness and unacceptable is to make this giant leap. It's a massive assumption that turns into a huge human rights issue. Saying that every single thing they spell is influenced.

• 10:29Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  It's and like, you know, whenever you talk to anyone, you're going to be influenced.

• 10:33Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  By who you're speaking to.

• 10:35Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  And the science even behind this, it gets fascinating because the science of autism really supports what the non speakers are saying. We know it's a neurodevelopmental problem. It is not a behavioral problem. It's neurodevelopmental. We diagnose it based on behavior because that's just the nature of the DSM. That's how we work in the world, but we're evolving and we're learning. Oh, it's the internal experience. It's the nervous system. That's where the autism truly lies. So when we're only diagnosing based on behavior, one, we're missing a lot of neurodivergent people by doing that. And and I think we're missing what really matters.

• 11:19Ky Dickens?

  Yeah. When you say DSM, what does that mean?

• 11:21Speaker 02

  The Diagnostic Statistical Manual for like, it's what psychologists and psychiatrists use for diagnosing mental disorders. And neurodevelopmental disorders are also in there, like ADHD, intellectual disability and autism. We know they're neurodevelopmental. They're in the DSM for diagnostic reasons. And it can be severe or it can be not as severe. And it just, there's a spectrum.

• 11:47Ky Dickens?

  So, you know, I'd love for you to kind of go through some of the common arguments that have been leveled against spellers or typers. And and why those arguments might not hold water. And I think, starting with, what was that horse's name, Clever Hans? And maybe explain who Clever Hans was. What the argument was and how that wouldn't translate to a letterboard from my understanding because you'd have to cue every single letter, which would take a long time. So maybe could you talk about that?

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Yes, so Clever Hans, it's like 1907, there's a horse that the owner is convinced that the horse is intelligent because you can ask the horse any question and the horse will stomp its hoof however many times to get you to the right answer. You could ask true, false, you could ask how old someone is, a lot of different questions. What they found is, you know, even scientists came into the study of this horse, they couldn't figure it out, but then they did some studies where they blindfolded the horse and the horse couldn't get the answers right when it was blindfolded. So they realized somehow the horse is going off of a visual cue to know when to stop tapping its hoof.

• 12:58Ky Dickens?

  So like I did a Clever Hans deep dive too, and it sounds like, let's say your child was 14 and you said to Clever Hans, "Okay, how old is my kid?" And then it was the hoof going. And when you got to 14, people would usually lean in and clap or smile really big and then the horse would stop, right? So it would, the horse would pick up on a subtle cue and know when to stop.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:21Ky Dickens?

  Okay.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:22Ky Dickens?

  Okay, so now fast forward, how did that get tangled in with spelling?

• 13:26Speaker 02

  So it's idiomotor effect is this, we, we make subtle movements subconsciously and we all do this. And that is how mentalists work. They learn how to read people's subconscious cues very subtly and they can pick up a lot of different information that way. So because the partners with the non-speakers, they are not trying to fool anyone, they are not trying to do anything. They believe in the words that the non-speaker is saying. So to explain that, they would say, well, then the partner must be doing something subconsciously. Something the partner's doing subconsciously is controlling the non-speaker.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  It's controlling the letters the non-speaker is selecting.

• 14:14Ky Dickens?

  Which, pause there, because what's so weirdly offensive about that? It's rooted in this idea that these people cannot be competent, that non-speakers aren't competent because they're looking at behavior, right? They're seeing someone who, you ask them a question, they walk away, or you tell them to sit down and they might stand up, which is a function of a praxia. Your body's not able to do what you want it to do. But just because you're not speaking or not able to control your body doesn't mean you're not smart. But the idea that in order to spell something, you have to be cued or joysticked by like a human body is deeply problematic for me because it sounds like it's rooted in this idea that these individuals are not in there.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I was, when I was trying to understand, like, how can we think this? That's where I uncovered what I think is the link between telepathy and spelling.

• 15:12Ky Dickens?

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• 15:57Ky Dickens?

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• 17:03Ky Dickens?

  I wear it with everything. It can be dressed up, it can be dressed down, it can be layered with other necklaces. I love it. And you'll see it in a lot of our video podcasts. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the telepathy tapes. It's the best way to support our show.

• 17:33Ky Dickens?

  Okay, so you're looking at some of these tests that people point to as debunking spelling. And what do you see?

• 17:39Speaker 02

  They were seeing telepathy and needed an explanation. And so instead of believing the words the non-speakers were spelling, we create this materialist explanation for how they can be spelling what their partner knows. So we create this explanation and then it just grows and grows and grows from there. And it really, I mean, it put the science of autism back so far. But now we've got psychologists and we've got motor planning scientists

• 18:18Speaker 02

  looking into autism as well and finding that what the non-speakers have been saying is true from an experiential perspective. We do know that they have motor difficulties and motor differences, sensory motor differences. You know, there's a praxia, like speech is a fine motor. We know that loops are very common, that they'll get in this, there's a mind-body disconnect. We can see that in, you know, level one, two, and three. So.

• 18:47Ky Dickens?

  And by level one, two, and three, for people new to this, those are levels of autism based on quote unquote severity?

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 18:54Ky Dickens?

  Level three would be non-speakers.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So what's fascinating is the things they were saying, you know, in the 80s with facilitated communication still ring true now, which makes it unbelievably heartbreaking that they had access to communication.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  We shut it down because it didn't hold up to materialist tests.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  And now, how do we, how do we come back from that? How do we make up for that? How do we? I mean, it's a lot of, a lot of people.

• 19:30Ky Dickens?

  So bring people back there. So in the, just when did facilitated communication start? What did that look like versus now? What was problematic? And like, when did things start to unravel? And how, how do we still feel the repercussions of that today? Forty, almost fifty years later?

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. So facilitated communication started in the eighties, like in Australia. And they brought it over to the United States. And everyone was really excited about it. Educators, and it was adopted very quickly. And people were communicating, so they thought.

• 20:08Ky Dickens?

  For the first time.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  For the first time. You have this massive population of people that are now gaining voices. And not only that, their outcomes are improving. You know, it isn't just that they're gaining voices. It's that they're seeing results. They're seeing improvements in behavior, things you can measure. But, um, you know, relationships seem to be forming in ways that they hadn't before. But then they do these tests, message passing tests, which were just one of, the message passing test was just invented by a speech and language pathologist. It's not like, this wasn't some fine science, like vaccines or medicine or, you know, things that have a lot of specialists involved.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  This was, this is very niche science. So, um, I just think that's important for listeners to know, like, questioning this is, it's manageable. There are many other forms of science that I wouldn't even go near because it's just too complicated. This was fairly simple and it's remarkable how few people really control it. And so he makes this test, the message passing test, where the non-speaker and the partner are asked different questions. And so they don't know what the other was asked. They're asked different questions. Let's make it really simple. The non-speaker is shown a picture of a cup. The partner is shown a picture of a dog.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  The non-speaker, when asked, "What picture did you see?", the non-speaker spells "dog". And so, how could the non-speaker do that? How could they know? The partner must be in control somehow. And no matter how far away they were sitting, no matter what the context, it was just always, if they failed, they're being cued. And because they failed consistently, because the way the tests were set up, it was stressful. It wasn't taking into account a lot of the things that we've learned from non-speakers.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  They would fail, and it was just assumed that every word, from that point on, is controlled.

• 22:26Ky Dickens?

  What do you think was happening? I mean, so, the, I guess skeptics of spelling would say, okay, they were being somehow cued, or someone was moving the board, or something like that. What's the alternative to what was happening in those tests?

• 22:40Speaker 02

  I think, like, I think it was telepathy. Yeah, like, I, and honestly, I wouldn't have even made that jump until I saw the footage. You know, it's a young girl, and she's pointing to letters, and I just had to put myself in that position of, like, trying to work with someone, holding a board, and in any way trying to get them to put their finger on the right letter. That would, what? Like, that just seemed so hard and almost impossible. But I also get that, yeah, telepathy, many people think is impossible, but since my mind had opened to the potential of telepathy just enough, you go, oh, my gosh, what if that's how they're doing that?

• 23:25Ky Dickens?

  Yeah. And I love, because that's where I ended up looking back at some of that research, too, was like, if you watch how quickly some of these individuals are spelling, and the fact that if it was idiomotor, you'd have to cue every single word, so you'd have to float over A and get a cue, you'd have to float over B and get a cue, you'd have to float over C and get a cue. And I, you've seen spellers at this point, I'm sure, they spell so fast, they're not waiting for a cue. Sometimes the word is out before, you know, no one even knows what's happening, right? It's just so, so fast, especially if you're typing, like, the spellers that we feature aren't being touched, sometimes they're typing into an iPad on their own, you know, the parent isn't even holding the board or the device, right? So it's like...

• 24:10Ky Dickens?

  What is happening if they're saying what's in the parent's mind or what the parents saw? And if it's not queuing, it's telepathy. But to your point, in the 90s, I think that would have sounded bananas. I mean, it sounds bananas to people even now. So if you want to isolate telepathy, then they just do, everything is thrown out the window, right? Because it's like, none of this can be possible. Okay, so as far as the people doing those message passing tests, so they weren't scientists with like IRB approval, which is like approval from big universities. This were these like peer reviewed gigantic tests that were put out in journals and studied? Or was it just like, like, tell me how, what you think regarding how like these early 90s

• 24:49Ky Dickens?

  message passing tests became the baseline for dismissing communication from an entire group of people?

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think at first, they weren't IRB, but then they were. And I think once you get the failed message passing test, that's where the error happens. Once, once you are sure that they're communicating, the partner's sure that they're communicating, they do a test, you're, you're not even touching them, and yet they spell what's in your mind. Once everyone became aware that that's a possibility, I think that really solidified the message passing test. It's, we know influence is possible in very surprising ways, so we have to get a message passing test.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  And so this is what my big aha moment recently has been. Even if everyone kind of comes around to the telepathy piece, we have the other hurdle of presuming competence. And if people come around to, well, they can, you know, potentially read minds, it still begs the question of, well, are their thoughts their own? Are their words their own? And that's where the research going on right now that isn't getting included by Asha scientists, because it's being done by psychologists, showing, you know, eye

• 26:21Speaker 02

  tracking studies and really focusing on proving authorship, rather than obsessing about this potential for influence, it's, we can move on from there, from a spelling science perspective. We know they can be influenced. Instead of staying in this how, why, which we may never know, especially if it's telepathy, we may never know. How do we just ensure that their words are their own? And I've thought about this, looking at how hard it is to spell, how much effort. And if you're the parent of a neurodivergent person, you know how

• 27:05Speaker 02

  hard it can be to get them to do anything that they don't want to do. So I think it's, it's not a wild assumption to say that they are spelling what they want to spell. And that's just the most humane, to me, obvious explanation is they're spelling what they want to spell. It might be something, a thought you're having, but they want to be spelling it if they're doing that.

• 27:32Ky Dickens?

  Yeah. And what's interesting too, and this was the big aha moment for me was, and why it felt important to talk about the telepathy piece, is because I've met so many parents and CRPs now who will say, or communication regulation partners, who will say, when I'm spelling with this person, I will completely empty my mind. I have no thoughts of my own. And if that becomes hard, I'll sing a song over and over in my head, or I'll say the word orange or banana, something over and over and over again. And what's really funny is like, I've been in a situation before, watching a speller type something, some beautiful message, and all of a sudden they'll say, stop saying banana. And I'm thinking, what is happening? But they're, they're talking to the partner, you know, or like, just clear

• 28:16Ky Dickens?

  your head instead of saying banana. Just really funny things that are like, that's actually really annoying to me right now. Like, can you just clear it so I can spell, you know, and not say banana over and over? So I think, you know, there's those moments that are really quite humorous, but also telling. And I just want to add this thought too, you know, which it took me a long time to really understand this ableism, right? That like we, what does that even mean? But I think for some people, just to think about it, is that we have a box of what feels comfortable for us to validate something, right? Like, oh, just do it this way. And if you can't do it that way, it's like, oh, they can't do it. But that's pretty ableist because you're coming at it from a point of view where you're used to a neurotypical body responding

• 28:56Ky Dickens?

  to your thoughts, responding to the directions firing from your brain, saying to do something X, Y, Z. Or even if you have a difficult time around controlling your body and need someone there to regulate. And non-speakers will often say if there's someone calming, present, helping me, reminding me to put my feet flat on the ground, or my back up straight, it helps me to communicate, to function. And so to say, your words only count if a person isn't in the room helping you with that. Again, it feels, we're coming from an ableist point of view, our point of view, what works for our bodies, not what working for theirs. And I think that is the big shift.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Exactly. That it's to view support as control, to say that, you know, communication needs to be 100% independent is ableist. And so it's not flinging insults, it's, that's what we mean when we say this is ableist. It'd be like, you know, not letting someone have an interpreter. It's support, but their words are still their own.

• 30:02Ky Dickens?

  Right. Right. Or one example I've used before is like, if someone needs to read a book, but needs reading glasses, if you take away the reading glasses, it's a support. You're not saying the reading glasses are why you're reading. I mean, it's a support. And I think if you think about a communication regulation partner in that similar way. It's just a support.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  Mm hmm, absolutely.

• 30:25Ky Dickens?

  Can you talk about any of the research you see happening right now in terms of mind exploration, proving authorship? You mentioned eye tracking studies. What are those? What have they discovered from eye tracking studies?

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Yes, so Vikram Joswal out of University of Virginia, it's a lab, and they do great work. And the one study, it's eye tracking study where they're measuring the eye movements, and they can show that the non-speaker's eyes go to the letter before they select it. So it makes cueing theory even that much harder, because then it puts it in the realm of like Morse code or something. So there's these eye tracking studies. They just came out with a commentary in Autism Research Journal, which is owning this potential for influence, obviously not talking about telepathy, but just we know that they can be influenced. We know all these message passing tests have failed.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  But wow, what a leap to go from influence to shut it down. And obviously, they're much more eloquent and scientific in their explanation for why we need to revisit the science of assisted typing, they call it assisted typing. But I think that's good for all the parents, people out there that are curious. If you're not down with the telepathy piece, that's fine. This is not dangerous and it isn't going against science. It's just, there are different silos in science, and we have a perfect storm of, this has been in the wrong silo for way too long.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  And then getting it out of the speech-language pathology silo. It needs to be in physiology and neuroscience and psychology, like moving it over there. And there's great work going on. More researchers are needed, though, and we need much more people in this space. And I also want us to be ready for...

• 32:26Speaker 02

  There will always be the potential for saying, well, maybe they were influenced. It's like, okay, so because we have so much research showing that influence is possible, how do we get past this potential for influence? And you go, you verify. If anything is set of consequence, we validate it with an independent spelling partner. Done. And that's like this whole fear around not letting them spell, not letting them spell, because abuse allegations are inevitable. And that is damaging and very hard to deal with. But we can deal with it. But it really is going to be changing the science of autism.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  This is a big shift to say, oh, my gosh, non-speakers are much, much more aware, present, capable than we previously understood.

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• 34:33Speaker 02

  And the science is already supporting that. Like, science coming out from neuroscientists. They're doing research on motor and sensory motor. It's all jiving with what we're finding with spelling, that we need to coach their motor. And then they gain access to much more language when their nervous systems are calm.

• 34:53Ky Dickens?

  Those motor pathways are formed.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, they can get the motor pathway formed. And I mean, this is just the beginning, I think, for the science of autism especially, like, really understanding how we can support all levels.

• 35:06Ky Dickens?

  I know you've now met some spellers and their families and CRPs. Have you had conversations? Because, again, it's something I see often where a speller will be spelling something the parent doesn't want to do, doesn't agree with, has no knowledge about, is frustrated because they will speak in long sentences when they want a quick answer. Have you seen any of that? Because that, to me, fits into a column of just common sense. If you're cueing something, you would want it your way all the time.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Yep, we were having a really fun night with Katie and Libby. It was after filming, I think, a little while back.

• 35:42Ky Dickens?

  Katie, who we mentioned before, is Houston's mom, and Libby is John Paul's mother. And they were all featured in season one of the telepathy tapes and the upcoming film.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Houston was there. And I asked Houston something, and he was like, "It's time to go to bed." And I knew Katie did not want to go to bed. So just like little things like that. And I've heard plenty of stories, definitely, where it's surprising. Like, and I've asked multiple parents, because if you're in the camp of like, "I can accept the telepathy piece," it does beg the question, okay, if we're open to telepathy, how do you know everything they say isn't just, you know, what you want to hear? How do you know it's really coming from them? And there's just so many examples. Like, when I've asked parents that...

• 36:35Speaker 02

  You know, they say they're learning their child's or adult's personality. They're learning likes and dislikes and, you know, I want to go to the beach and they'll go to the beach and it'll, they'll love it. And I mean, there's just so many solutions and that's why I've said it'd be really great to track the outcomes, the mental health improvements, the relationship improvements. How do we show the benefits of them getting voices on top of just getting a voice? Yeah. But I, I don't know, I, I'd like to think of like, what's the most valuable way we can

• 37:12Speaker 02

  research this? But it, it truly is, right now, we say inconclusive and we have to let spelling across the board happen because we know how to mitigate the dangers and it sure looks like we've been wrong. So how do you right that wrong as quickly as possible?

• 37:37Ky Dickens?

  Do you think those who are so locked into wanting to disenfranchise and dismiss spelling as fake, you know, a lot of people at ASHA, or there are like a lot of really intense lobbyists and people who are making sure spelling stays in the fringes? Do you think there's any amount of research that would change their stance? Or do you think there could be an emotional desire not to because it would show how wrong they've been? And being wrong about who won the Super Bowl or something two years ago was one thing. Being wrong about denying people education, life, relationships, friendships, autonomy,

• 38:15Ky Dickens?

  where they eat, where they go, what they do, is massive. It is a crime I can't even fathom. And if I helped bolster that narrative, I personally would be very scared of being called out wrong. And I, and, but who knows? Like, what, what do you think about that? Do you think they want to accept a change? Or is there too much at risk?

• 38:39Speaker 02

  I completely agree. It's so massive and it's been going on for so long. And through the research I've done, I can see people that deeply care for non-speakers, that it isn't coming from a place of Negative, it's really is coming from a place of believing they're protecting them. Which is the, it's almost like the worst type of trying to help. It's like when I was trying to help by, you know, digging into the science of telepathy. And I do, I think it helped, but then I had this moment of like, oh my gosh, did I make something worse? Did I actually hurt them? So that's the same, you know, a lot of these researchers are just trying to help in the best way they know how.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  But I think studying it, validating it, it's going to be difficult. And because we know influence is possible, for whatever reason, how do we incorporate that into the science?

• 39:35Ky Dickens?

  I love, I love what you brought up around trying, and maybe there's research going on around this. If there is, let me know. But trying to study the mental health and almost like behavioral outcomes in a family when someone starts spelling. Cause what I've witnessed many times now is truly someone being able to say what they want for dinner or what they can't eat. Like I remember hearing about a young speller who was just like, I actually cannot eat eggs. They make me feel so bad. And she was having all sorts of stomach issues and all sorts of stuff. And then like they stopped eggs and their morning got way better, you know? Or, you know, like you said, like there's a non-speaker I know who can surf. And that would have never crossed their parents' mind.

• 40:16Ky Dickens?

  But when he started spelling, he said, I want to go to the ocean and I want to learn to surf. Well, that sounded bananas from someone with a praxi who cannot control their body. And he can do it. And so I think those are the things where it's like, then as a family member or a parent, you're like, oh. We had this, and people have heard me share this story when we were filming Nina, who's in our film. And she was really dysregulated, having a really hard time when our film team was there. And I thought, we can't film today. She's screaming and upset and it was, you know, just out of respect for the family. And she took the, we were all about to go and we're outside and she spelled on her letter board, no, bring me to the forest. And I was like, okay.

• 40:58Ky Dickens?

  And it's like, we had to, you know, change everything, go to the forest. And the family was all ready for everything at home that day. You know, it was going to be like, you know, it was a shoot. It was a kind of a major thing. We were all there. So we all go to the forest and she becomes so calm and relaxed. And was just like, this is my happy place. I'll tell you why. I can jive with plants in this beautiful way and understand them and this is grounding. Well, that was her talking. So I think that to look at those outcomes, right, of when non-speakers are, have autonomy and agency over the decisions around their life, does it benefit the family? Does it benefit that individual? Does it benefit the greater society?

• 41:43Ky Dickens?

  And I feel like that research is going to be the stuff that moves the needle.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 41:47Ky Dickens?

  And do you think those at ASHA, and again, those people who are fairly against spelling, thinking that they're protecting non-speakers, do you think they'd be open to research like that?

• 41:56Speaker 02

  I don't know. I wonder if they would put it in the same vein as like acupuncture or certain forms of therapy, like if they'll say, yeah, it works, but they're not really communicating. I wonder if they would still hold to this, you know, the influence is possible, therefore it's all influenced. That, I think, will be the hardest one to shake.

• 42:28Ky Dickens?

  Because this is such fragile, divisive, fiery territory. Nothing in this world is easy around the spelling, the non-spelling, the, you know, praxia, the divisiveness, even just within autism community, I mean, it's like so much. But from my point of view, the telepathy piece is essential. Because if people can understand it, that it's happening, and I deeply at this point now believe it is, then you can actually start to have a real conversation around spelling and understand there might not be queuing happening, it's telepathy. And how do you clear your mind or clear your thoughts so that authorship can really prevail?

• 43:11Ky Dickens?

  To me, it's like a very simple thing, but until telepathy is accepted, the conversation will still go in loops like it has for 30, 40 years. We don't know how they're saying what they're looking at. Someone in another room, they looked at a cup and in this room, they're spelling about a cup. Like, how can that happen? I mean, there have been message passing tests in other rooms. It's and it's like, how can someone be queuing someone from another room? It's telepathy, right? I mean, it's like, that is the only logical leap. And what is the other leap? I don't even know what the leap is.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Like even the Akil and his mom, that video, they go, well, you know, she's, she's making sounds. Any kind of perceptible sound, anything. But it's because I think that we really hold strong to materialism and I think a lot of people are scared to be the fool. And to, yeah, to not know. And I even think something really damaging, Oz Perlman saw the telepathy tapes and came out and said, oh yeah, they're, I know what they're doing there. And, you know, assumed that, you know, the partner and they could be communicating like, you know, when you have a two man act for mentalism, you could, in theory, fool people.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  And it's like, there's no one trying to fool anyone. No one thinks that's what's happening. And so it's like, and I've seen researchers even point to mentalism, journalists, serious journalists are like quoting mentalists about how mentalists can figure out how that's not telepathy, they're doing this. And it's like, you guys don't know what you're talking about. It's physiological. This isn't a show. This isn't, no one's taking their kid around the country trying to get money. Like I've heard people discount Speller's words because they wrote a book and they are, they're just, you know, trying to make money to write a book. It's like, of course they're writing a book. This is incredible what's happening to people.

• 45:13Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  And just because someone earns a living off of their experience is not a reasonable way to discount.

• 45:22Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  Their experience.

• 45:24Ky Dickens?

  It's interesting because I've often thought that as well. It's like, the majority of, I would say, all of the parents who have come forth, maybe there's like a few outliers that I, I haven't met. But like of all the parents and teachers I know, they are legitimately all saying the same thing. I can't hide something. The non-speak will break into my computer with password. They'll know things that are private. They'll start responding to a text message that someone else just got. All sorts of things that they were like, we can't explain this. We are looking for answers. Can someone please help? The only thing that makes sense is telepathy. And then they ask the child and the child will say something that no one wants to hear. Yes, I can read your mind. I don't want my kids reading my mind. If I was a teacher,

• 46:08Ky Dickens?

  I certainly don't want my students reading my mind. So you think there's, okay, now hundreds of cases of parents and teachers saying this, are they all in cahoots and all planning magic shows on the side? I mean, and what's so interesting is if you understand apraxia, I've never been around a non-speaker who can get up when you say get up or sit down when you say sit down. There's no way with apraxia, you can be like, we are going to control your body. If you can't control your body in every realm of your life, can you sit down and do a 30-minute magic show? I mean, it's so, to me, it's so disassociated from reality and such a bananas leap. That, to me, is a bigger leap than telepathy,

• 46:50Ky Dickens?

  to be like, suddenly apraxia can melt away and this parent who's looking for answers, who is so busy and raising other kids, maybe, and has another job and exhausted because they're up all night, they're taking care of often a grown-up for 24 or 7, you know, they're going to plan a magic show. Like, it's so ridiculous to me.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  That is precisely, precisely what they try to explain away when non-speakers get very proficient at spelling. And there's footage of them typing, spelling words, and they're

• 47:25Ky Dickens?

  So fast, too.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  So fast. And the explanation is that, oh, well, they just had them at home and trained them how to do that. And then when they get in camera, then they do it. Or because of the apraxia, because it's this messy process, because support is required, that, all of that is used against them. All of that is used to say, oh, see there, oh, they moved there, that was controlled, that was controlled. That's, I think, the most important point of this whole thing. They are not being controlled.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  They have apraxia. It is very hard to control them. Like you said, they can't get their bodies to do all kinds of stuff. And that's supported by neuroscientists. That's supported by psychologists. So, speech and language pathologists can judge the behavior, which is what they do. They're judging the behavior and like, they know how to get up because he just went up and got a snack. And now he won't get up. He's choosing not to get up. Now, I can get on a soapbox. I think that's the biggest misunderstanding with neurodivergence in general. Neurotypical people will observe a neurodivergent person's behavior and assume it's what they want to be doing. That's the number one disconnect is with neurodivergence,

• 48:48Speaker 02

  you lack the ability to do what you want to be doing. And so, when science assumes all behavior is based on what you want, you wouldn't be doing that if you didn't want to. You wouldn't be doom scrolling if you didn't want to. There is this paralysis that can happen in neurodivergent people. And then just imagine that times 10 where you just have, it's so hard to control your motor. And I think that's what non-speakers are dealing with. And the science is coming around, but not fast enough. And so, that's what's like, spell, go spell, we can do it safely. And so, I am pro-science. I'm so pro-science.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Spelling is scientific. It is based in science. It's just based in psychology, physiology. It's based in different sciences, not behaviorist science.

• 49:43Ky Dickens?

  Right. Exactly. Yeah. And this has been in the behaviorist camp for a long time. And for audience members who are like, what are they talking about? Behaviorism is when you look at someone's behavior and judge their intellect, right? I mean, is that a quick and easy way to define it?

• 49:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, just we psychologists, we want to, science needs to be objective. We can objectively measure behavior.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  And so that's just how it's evolved. So if you look at the way we diagnose mental disorders, you have a list of behaviors. So like depression, it's not clinical depression until it's really affecting your behavior, and then it becomes clinical. But neurodivergence is different because it's an internal experience. And what if you're really good at, they'll call it masking. What if you're really good at hiding your internal experience, showing the right behaviors, but inside it's so pained and it's not okay. And so that's where things are evolving.

• 50:49Ky Dickens?

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, so if you look to the future, what do you think is happening? I mean, now there's a landscape where at least telepathy is entering the conversation. There's more research being done. There's more funding going into this. I think there's more families starting to get on letter boards. Like, we're hearing about new families all the time, you know, trying. And more people wanting to get, be trained as a CRP, or Communication Regulation Partner. For, again, audience members who might be new, those are the people who will sit with a non-speaker who has a praxia and coach their motor, right? Okay, put your back up straight. Okay, look ahead of you. Okay, it looks like your loss. We're putting the board right back down in front of you. They're not saying, type these words.

• 51:32Ky Dickens?

  They're helping their body be in the best place to perform. The same way if my son is doing a free throw, I say, okay, use one hand and look at the hoop and don't, you know, it's like coaching motor. Getting people set up to win is something we all do, right? It's in life. So with all of this happening, where do you think this is going to be in five or 10 years? I know that no one can tell the future, but you have a science mind. You've been in the science landscape. Is anything different now? Do you think change could possibly be in the air for typers and spellers?

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Definitely. I think it's getting to the point where it's undeniable. And also, now that we're seeing more researchers in other silos, psychologists and people focusing on motor and sensory motor, those are the type of researchers we need looking at this. Because the more serious researchers we get to say, they're in there, this is happening, this critical piece, we've missed this, we need to make this right. So I think the truth will always rise to the top. I think it's going to move slower than we want. It needs to be covered by insurance, which always takes a long time. So really, the way the

• 52:49Speaker 02

  medical industry works is you've got some things that work, some things that are just placebo, that are on the edge. And eventually, the research catches up and says, oh, wow, this is really beneficial. Insurance will cover it. I think that's what's going to happen with spelling, is we're going to start seeing, really trying to measure the benefits, measure the outcomes, measure the, you know, less crises. I mean, there's so many health benefits that, once we can show that, then insurance should start covering it.

• 53:21Ky Dickens?

  Right. I know, it is follow the money, because once you realize there's going to be less medical interventions, you can curb maybe an allergy or problematic thing that a non-speaker can spell and communicate with. I need this for regulation. I want this to eat. This actually makes my tummy hurt, or whatever. Stomach. Sorry. I'm like such a mom. It makes my stomach hurt. You're going to have less trips to the ER, or the doctor, or, you know, nutritionist. That's hopeful, right?

• 53:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then, once medical gets behind it, then it'll be a wonderful tool for AIDS in Paris to... Learn how to use it because it'll be so regulating. Um, so it'll be interesting to see how it evolves.

• 54:04Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  I mean, we spend a lot of money on autism care right now. I have several friends who there could, I mean, it is expensive. We are spending a lot of money right now. We could shift how we're spending that money. Probably spend less money and get way better outcomes. If we start approaching this in the right way. As a mind, body disconnect, a praxia, coaching motor. I mean, the, the benefits, it's going to be remarkable, I think.

• 54:35Ky Dickens?

  So, and then I guess to kind of bring this full circle, you know, one of the things that was shocking to me is when I started meeting more spellers and their parents were stunned and often in denial about some of the things their children were spelling or students were spelling. Often it was about telepathy, but also sometimes things that were like totally beyond the pale. You know, communicating with the other side or seeing things their parents couldn't see. And seeing auras, just things like that, that were like, what? And again, these are parents often who were atheists, agnostic, didn't have a spiritual life of their own. This was never something that they would like choose to spell if they were forcing the language, right?

• 55:15Ky Dickens?

  Where do you, how do you interpret all of that stuff? Coming from someone who went from a Mormon to leaving your faith, to becoming an atheist, to now seeking again. Where do you land on all, all of those spiritual revelations that are coming from the non-speaking community?

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. That was a really tricky piece for me. Because we're getting differing views on things as big as God and the nature of heaven. And non-speakers are saying different things. And I think, you know, if you're just skeptic, not curious, you're going to say it's all baloney. You just next stay in the real world. I'm going to ignore that.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  But I, I think it's opening up our ideas of what another realm could be. What is true for one person may not be true for another. And is there a way we can think of that space? If telepathy is occurring, it could be like an information field. What does that mean? And then for me, I'm a very practical person and it's like, how do I bring that into my life now? What does that mean for my day to day with chronic pain? Or how do we? Why do we care? Why is it even worth looking at? And for me, it gives its hope, its love, its connection, its beauty.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  It adds sparkle to life, you know?

• 56:51Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Be safe, but still, it, it like, it makes life sparkle. Like, it's been really lovely to learn, kind of get a spiritual education. I thought that was a part of my life that was just done, so.

• 57:06Ky Dickens?

  Yeah, I feel the same though. I mean, you can, you can't, you can't be too far in either extreme, I think, to understand the world. You have to find a way to analytically experience or be curious about both.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:18Ky Dickens?

  All right, any closing thoughts? Any final things you want to say I didn't ask you about?

• 57:22Speaker 02

  It's been just a joy. I love working with non-speakers and I think it's, it's hard, but it's an exciting time. Not just the paradigm shift, but really, wow, we're going through a paradigm shift. And on top of that, we have this massive population of people that need our help. So to me, it's like a call for scientists, for researchers, anyone who's interested in the consciousness science, the science of consciousness, this space. They can apply that to actually helping people right now. And, and I hope we see more and more people really putting in their efforts to help non-speakers because it's. The way it is right now is not okay.

• 58:07Ky Dickens?

  Yeah. Well, thank you.

• 58:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:09Ky Dickens?

  Thank you for coming in. Yeah, that was wonderful.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  It's great.

• 58:12Ky Dickens?

  That's it for this episode of The Talk Tracks. But new episodes will be released every Wednesday. So stay tuned as we work to unravel all the threads, even the veiled ones that knit together our reality. And please remember to stay kind, stay curious, and that being a true skeptic requires an open mind. To dive in deeper, subscribe to our Backstage Pass by visiting our website. With it, you'll unlock access to bonus content like telepathy tests, Ask Me Anything interviews with myself and guests. You'll be able to enjoy the podcast ad free, connect with other members on our Telepathy Tribe Discord, and hear and see exclusive content from the Telepathy Tapes Vault. Visit our website at thetelepathytapes.com for more info on how to subscribe to our Backstage Pass. Thank you to my amazing collaborators.

• 58:55Ky Dickens?

  Producers Katherine Ellis and Selena Kennedy, technical directing, audio mix and finishing by Jeremy Cole, opening and closing music by Elizabeth P. W., and original logo and cover art by Ben Condor Design. I'm Kai Dickens, your executive producer, writer, and host.