S2E23: It’s Never Too Late | Talk Tracks

What if communication can open at any age? In this episode of the Talk Tracks, Ky Dickens sits down with Betsy Hicks Russ and her son Joe, who began spelling in adulthood after decades of being underestimated. As communication opens, so does a new understanding of Joe’s inner life, his humor, his insight, his spirituality, and the depth of what he has long been aware of. Together, they explore presuming competence, the emotional transformation that comes when someone is finally able to express themselves, and the mystery of connection that can emerge between nonspeakers and those closest to them. At the heart of this episode is Joe’s message to other families regarding spelling and opening up communication for nonspeakers: it is never too late. Join The Telepathy Tapes Backstage Pass to get ad-free episodes, never-before-heard interviews, behind-the-scenes documentary footage, and access to our private Discord community. This is your invitation to come closer. To help shape what’s next. To be more than a listener… to be a co-creator of this paradigm shift. So if you’ve felt moved, if you’ve felt seen, if you’ve felt the call—subscribe today and join us: thetelepathytapes.supercast.com. http://thetelepathytapes.supercast.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ky Dickens?

  Hi, welcome back to the Telepathy Tapes Talk Tracks. Today, we have Betsy Hicks-Russ and her son Joe, who just started to learn spelling at the age of 30. And around that time is also when Truth Around Telepathy and Presuming Competence and everything came out. Joe's gonna be up and down, in and out, as he feels comfortable. And if you want to see our incredible guests in person, we have a video version of this episode on the Telepathy Tapes YouTube page.

• 0:31Ky Dickens?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Kai Dickens, and I'm thrilled to welcome you to the Talk Tracks. In this series, we'll dive deeper into the revelations, challenges, and unexpected truths from the Telepathy Tapes. We'll feature conversations with groundbreaking researchers, thinkers, non-speakers, and experiencers who illuminate the extraordinary connections that may defy explanation today, but won't for long.

• 0:56Speaker 01

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• 1:26Ky Dickens?

  Today, we have an incredible mother and son, Betsy and Joe. So why don't we start by introducing yourselves?

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Hi, I'm Betsy Hicks-Russ, and I'm the mother of Joe, who's 32 years old. We live in the state of Washington, and we have a lot of fun being very, very active, cycling, hiking, and we bring the world around with us as we do it.

• 1:48Ky Dickens?

  And Joe, do you want to start by weighing in on anything at all?

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Min-nin. H-I. And get there, get there, K. I know. There you go. Hi, Kai. And is that it? Or you're gonna keep going? Yeah, that's it. There we go.

• 2:07Ky Dickens?

  Well, we're excited to have you here.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  There we go. There's a lot of enthusiasm in that.

• 2:11Ky Dickens?

  Yeah. Do you want to start by kind of giving your backstory? And what landed you on this couch today?

• 2:17Speaker 02

  I'd love to do the backstory because it's really interesting how it all unfolded. So Joe's 32. And I was in the autism industry through my late husband, who was a pediatrician. And so we worked with a lot of autism. And I did that for 16 years. He passed away 10 years ago. And I really thought I knew all there was to know. And I had resigned. You know, he's not in there. I'm never going to communicate with him. He doesn't understand.

• 2:46Ky Dickens?

  And how, how old was Joe when you were feeling that way?

• 2:49Speaker 02

  We're talking sadly, like three years ago. We're not, we're not talking a long time ago. We're talking of an entire, like almost 30 years of me thinking that my son did not understand anything or very little. And really resigning to severe autism and all the words that they use, you know? I just thought he had ADD, Intellectual Developmental Disability. I, I just didn't think he had any abilities. And one day I made a post on social media, which still haunts me, that I said, somebody asked me, how much do you think Joe knows?

• 3:29Speaker 02

  And I'm like, ah, you know, I think it's like a foreign language where you understand some of the words and you don't understand the rest. And somebody had reached out and said to me, you know, I thought that about my son too. And now we have spelling. And I had heard about it before, but I just didn't know how accessible it would be for us to be able to get somewhere. We lived in not a huge city. So I looked into it and it was a five hours to get to a practitioner and we started to go. And you, just like every parent, you hope that first up, that first one is gonna be like, "Hi Mom!", you know, they're gonna say something really incredible. And, and, and he fell asleep during the first one and probably the second one and probably

• 4:13Speaker 02

  the first five after that. No indication that he understood. And I was kind of laughing at my commitment to it, like, why am I even doing this? But I did it and I just kept going until one day, the practitioner said to me, "Hey, I'm moving to Bellingham where I live." And I'm like, "Well, that's a sign." So, we started going every week. And I could see that he was now starting to understand the lessons and he was still falling asleep and he was still having meltdowns and he still would only attend for like 10 minutes. And the reason I, I'm saying all of this is because Joe's biggest message is he wants people to know that it takes time and to not put a timeline on it. Yeah.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  So after about a year of going every single week, one day, um, we were in a session and it was a picture of the desert at night and she, and there was white, like a white powder on the, on, on the ground. And she said, "Wow, it's, it's the desert, so do you think it's snow? Like, you know, or is it sand? What do you think?" And he spelled, "It's salt." And he knew that that was a salt plane, uh, in, I think it's somewhere in Utah. And that's when I just collapsed and just couldn't believe it, that he was aware of

• 5:37Speaker 02

  that. What's progressed from that in the last two years of him being now an open speller is this understanding that is so hard for people to shift from, of being able to think, for, being told that they're not in there, that they don't understand, to understanding now that he's way more intelligent and grasps things much faster than I ever could. And so it's a, it's a strange journey to take.

• 6:04Ky Dickens?

  So Joe has only been spelling for about three years.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Openly about two.

• 6:09Ky Dickens?

  Wow, Joe. Joe, maybe if you want to spell a little, I'm curious to know, other non-speakers all over are still locked inside without having access to spelling. And is there anything you want to tell parents? I mean, some parents think my kid is too old. Early intervention is the only way to go. And I've heard some parents say, oh, well, you know, they'll look at the telepathy tapes of these parents or some non-speakers who've really worked on regulating their body. And they'll say, my child will never be able to do it.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:39Ky Dickens?

  And what's your advice, Joe, around spelling?

• 6:44Speaker 02

  I and T and S, it's N and keep going, keep going, keep going. E and all the way, where are you going? V and, and keep going, E and it's never T O two. Okay, keep going, buddy. L and A and what's next? T. It's never too L A T and E. It's never too late. I know, I know. It's very exciting. Good job. Do you want to get up for a little bit?

• 7:18Ky Dickens?

  Yeah, go hang out with your dad. You come back, Joe, you can just, this is your place. So for those of us going through it who have, or, you know, a non-speaker or someone with a praxia or, you know, labeled severely autistic or whatever it is, what were some of the things that were the most, maybe most surprising to learn about him?

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Funny. He's so funny. He has this incredible sense of humor. Like, one day, we were asking permission if we could film and he spelled, do manage to get my good side. And he wanted to be a Q-tip for Halloween. He wanted the big fluffy top and a bottom. He wanted to be dressed as a Q-tip. And he just says the funniest things about his life. So that's been really fun to get to know him about. He says he's really interested in the origin of words. He's very big about advocacy. He's trying to encourage people not to give up. And so, yeah, he's, he's a lot of fun to be with. And it's a whole different world for us.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  I mean, our whole relationship, everybody in the family, has changed because of it.

• 8:21Ky Dickens?

  How has that changed with your, like? If you can't say what you want for dinner, or that your stomach hurts, I would imagine the amount of anger and frustration outbursts coming from Joe would have been

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Huge.

• 8:32Ky Dickens?

  Huge. I mean, has his behavior changed at all?

• 8:35Speaker 02

  It has, but it's also, the part of the behavior change has strongly been because he gives me the reasons for his meltdowns now. And now that I'm understanding more about apraxia and just this complete lack of control for his body, that things, sometimes the body does things that he doesn't mean to. And where I used to go into a meltdown mode of, what did I do wrong? And what do I need to do to fix it? Like, that was my mode every single time. And he's just like, it's not about you, it's about me and my body, and you need to leave me alone. And just that alone has changed everything. The meltdowns have gone

• 9:15Speaker 02

  from like, hour long to five minutes, because he just needs to be left alone to get it out.

• 9:21Ky Dickens?

  Yeah. And when did you meet Libby? Like, how did that come about?

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Okay, so that's a great story.

• 9:26Ky Dickens?

  Well, and for people who, yeah, Libby was featured in season one of The Telepathy Tapes, John Paul's mother. And you and Libby have become friends.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  Yes, we have.

• 9:34Ky Dickens?

  And how did you meet Libby?

• 9:35Speaker 02

  That's so fun. So, The Telepathy Tapes comes out, and I, like, I literally, at one point, I was on episode four, I pull over the car, and I bring out the letterboard, a numberboard, actually, and I go, I'm thinking of a number, you know, of a number, what number is it? And all four digits, Joe hits it perfectly. And I sat there, and I just couldn't move. And that's where I said, now what? Now, now, now what? Like, what am I supposed to do with this information? So I didn't know what to do. That same week, I reached out to Libby, we're like, let's just all gather at my place. So it was like six or eight of us. It ended up being 32 people.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  And we all got together and it was like we were all family. The need for community in our situation is so intense right now because the spellers methods don't want to talk about telepathy, you know, and there's only so many people we can talk to telepathy about. And we are getting all this information and we just don't know what to do with it all. So it's been, it's been having the support system, having Libby and all these other friends of mine that I've now met to be able to make sense of it all.

• 10:53Ky Dickens?

  Well, I guess two questions around the telepathy kind of reveal. I mean, when you first asked him to, to think of the number or actually spell the number that was in your head.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:03Ky Dickens?

  Had you ever experienced anything previous to that that made you think that this was possible? Or was this just like a complete?

• 11:08Speaker 02

  This was totally out of my, everything, everything with Joe was one of those things with me where I believed it, I just didn't believe it was for Joe. Joe was too severe. Joe was too, you know, he wasn't going to comply. That, that was always my, I argued constantly for my limitations. And I mean, to the point where it shook me so much, I, I did this huge post on social media just saying I was wrong. And I just, it was just a general apology to everything that I, where I may have misled people. But also I want people to be humbled in this experience to know that it's okay if we're wrong. They're not holding resentment. They just want us to move forward.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  They want us to be able to, let's, you know, when, when I asked, I said, please forgive me for all that I've said in front of you and done in front of you. He's like, forgiven. It's over. It's the past. Let's move on. This is exciting. Let's not waste energy on being upset about it all. So, no, I, I was clueless. I, I, so I was dealing literally with Joe becoming an open speller and telepathy within about a three, three month period of time. Like it was all happening all at once. And I was just, it was, it was so much to go through. And the problem is like, nobody believed me. Like that was, that was another part of it is that.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  You know, it was always that my daughters had the head nod, that's nice, Mom, you know, and it was all of that. So then I, so then you really don't even know who to talk to about it.

• 12:41Ky Dickens?

  And now, do your daughters and your husband, like, are they all on board with spelling? And have they seen and witnessed the telepathy?

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:46Ky Dickens?

  Like, where do they all stand now and how did that progress happen?

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's an interesting one. Well, the spelling happens when they actually see it in person. That, that really was big for all of them. My daughter, Joe got to tell his sister he loved her for the first time. Joe has two sisters, one who's way more on board with it than the other, because she's in the, she's a social worker and a little more clinical about the whole situation. But the telepathy thing was interesting. Over Thanksgiving break, we did the number thing. I always joked to Joe, I go, we gotta do the party trick. We gotta do the party trick, Joe. And he's, and he just smiles at me and goes in the other room and we did the whole thing with the number.

• 13:25Ky Dickens?

  Joe would be in another room and they'd show you a number?

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And she, she's the one who gave me the number. She knew Joe wasn't there. She came back out. I don't think she was expecting it, because she fell to the floor and started to cry. She couldn't believe it. I mean, she, she knew I was talking about it, but she, seeing it herself and having done her own, what she felt was a correct study, made it a lot more real to her. So, since that's been the case, you know, she can't wait every single day to hear, what did Joe spell today? You know, she, she's just really excited about it.

• 14:00Ky Dickens?

  That's so interesting. And maybe, I mean, I think like, there has almost been this like bullying around science and understanding and if you're on the wrong side or right side and what's fringe and not fringe. And in a way, it's like, I think the paradigm in which we live, which is materialism, really wants people to doubt and dismiss things that aren't easily measured or validated. And I, I think that spelling is at the edge of what we can understand, because I think that, obviously, these people are, not speakers are, you know, authoring their own thoughts. But I think to get there, to have that motor control, it requires this like grounding and love and utter attention of another human being. And what can be connected in that moment is,

• 14:41Ky Dickens?

  it's like how a mother can lift a car if you love the person pinned underneath it. I mean, love makes us do unbelievable things. And I think the love and attention of someone sitting with someone with a praxia can help them overcome whatever is going on.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:56Ky Dickens?

  And it's really hard for science to be like, Well, it's not an independent spell, you know.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Right. And, and, and then let's even take into the role too of this like martyrdom that moms are supposed to kind of, and I, and I, I'm not, not saying dads because I'm trying to leave them out. It's just, I don't have experience being the dad piece of it. But it's also this kind of, you need to do all this, but there's nothing for you in, in this. And, and this is something that Joe spelled really, really early on is how much he wants me to love and care for myself. Because how much that, I learned, I learned over time that that affects him so dramatically

• 15:43Speaker 02

  that he needs me to be joyful and, and happy and, and be able to be regulated myself. It's such a co-creative process, co-regulation, but it's co-creative as well. It's both. We're creating this life together. We're regulating each other. We're, we're moving forward together. And it's, it is the ultimate dance, really, is what it is.

• 16:05Ky Dickens?

  Yeah. I love how you said that. It's so beautiful. Just how important it is for parents to know what they're feeling so they can regulate it and take care of it.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:13Ky Dickens?

  Because if a parent is not together and not grounded and not feeling great, it's going to impact their child with a heightened sensitivity.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  So much. And, and, and I get it. I know what it's like, you know? And, and being, taking care of yourself doesn't mean going to get your nails done. I mean, you can. Great. Go get your nails done. That's, if that, you like that, go do that. But it's like, that's, that's the, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about taking care of yourself by taking a few deep breaths, stretching your body, eating well. I'm, I'm a big proponent about these beautiful energetic bodies need beautiful energetic food. Like, so give them the healthiest they can be, but that doesn't mean just give your child healthy food. It means take care of yourself too. We have to recognize that.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  The more that we're all uplifting ourselves as a family unit, the greater experience we are all going to have. This isn't just about giving your child the best possible life. It's about you having the best possible life as well, too.

• 17:21Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  And do you think that they want to be responsible for your unhappiness? Like, they don't want to look at you and have you say, "I had to give up my life for my son," or "I can't do that because of my son." Like, do you mind if guilt they feel over that? So they want, when we are laughing and joyful and silly, that's what feeds them the most.

• 17:47Ky Dickens?

  Absolutely.

• 17:56Ky Dickens?

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• 19:39Ky Dickens?

  What are some of the more profound or groundbreaking things he's spelled that has really maybe wowed you or your family?

• 19:46Speaker 02

  I love what we asked him. What slogan on a T-shirt would he want? And he said, know what happens when you presume competence? You don't make an ass of you and me.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Which I thought was great. I think this is important. We asked, how do you feel about not being able to communicate for so long? And he spelled, in my mind, that was the hand I had been dealt. Doesn't do me any good to wallow over things that can't be changed. At least my loved ones understood what they could of me.

• 20:20Ky Dickens?

  There's something very poetic about that, too.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, very much so. Yeah. Oh, this was, this was really good because he loved the episode you did with Michael, with Paul Stamets. Because we had listened to Michael Pollan's book, How to Change Your Mind, on audiobook. That's another big change with Joe is how much he loves audiobooks and he loves learning. He just wants to keep learning and learning. So he, he thinks psilocybin is amazing. He's said, he needs something to help his trauma response because it's both emotionally and physically charged. He says, I feel memories vividly. It's hard to know what is reality.

• 21:05Ky Dickens?

  And has he tried like microdosing of psilocybin?

• 21:08Speaker 02

  No, no, we haven't.

• 21:10Ky Dickens?

  But Joe has felt he's interested. That's fascinating.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. I was told I could literally go to jail if I if I give Joey psilocybin right now.

• 21:19Ky Dickens?

  Wow.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Because legally speaking, we don't have consent. His testimony in court holds no value, even though he wants to do it. He can't legally advocate for himself by being a speller. That's what's a big problem right now.

• 21:37Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  With which is why we all have to be working so hard to get this accepted more understandably.

• 21:42Ky Dickens?

  That's so interesting.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Because I know he has tremendous trauma. I is 30 years. And he's lived in a group home for a year that I know was a horrible situation. And his dad and I divorced when he was young and and his stepfather died. And so he spelled, "Trauma is real. And I will acknowledge it when I've had time to enjoy this time of communicating openly and having my words genuinely listened to. I want to soak up every last second of goodness while I can." So he knows he's got to go there, but he's just not really ready to go there yet.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  My I have a nonprofit called Autism Odyssey, and we asked him what he felt an odyssey was. And he says, "It tests the synopsis of nonfiction by taking you through an eventful expedition." Let me say that was not on my mission statement. I did not even think of something that intelligent.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  I don't even think AI could have produced that one.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  So one of his first poems he wrote, it was about hiking. And he wrote, "Eager feet slip into shoes. No longer does he feel the blues. The sun is warm on his face. He feels like he's won first place. Moving his body only makes sense here. Moving his body makes everything clear."

• 23:10Speaker 02

  The part that I think it's interesting with poetry is not being able to write that down first and make it make sense before you are able to spell it word after word is is pretty challenging.

• 23:25Ky Dickens?

  Yeah, I love poetry as well. And when you sit and write, there's something that happens when like your pen hits a thing and see how it's flowing and there is and to imagine someone being right upon my pointing to letters, it would feel so difficult.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:38Ky Dickens?

  For me.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Right, to just to just go.

• 23:40Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Especially so, we didn't know he liked poetry. And one day, his practitioner asked, what would you like to do today? And he says, may I have a shot at writing poetry? And we're like, absolutely. What do you anything in particular? And he says, I'd like to try a haiku, which this goes into the fact that we were not at all influencing him because neither his practitioner nor I knew how many syllables. We knew that it had something to do with syllables, but we had no idea how many syllables was each. And he did this with perfection. And we found out later it was fine. And he wrote, when my feet hit trail, sensations tickle my soul. Peak joy, I'm alive.

• 24:23Ky Dickens?

  It's beautiful. How so being outside can be profoundly impactful and so great for regulating the body. What happens with Joe's body, his sensations, maybe even his control of motor movements when he is outside in the forest or on a hike?

• 24:38Speaker 02

  So it's either hiking or cycling, either one. And I almost always let him lead. I tried to always follow him so that this is one part of his life that he gets to lead. It's his spirituality. It's where he connects. When we asked him, what are your thoughts on spirituality? He says, I can remember thoughts of experiencing God and nature and in the kindness of others. I notice light around any kind of loving energy. It could be God, could be nothing more than love. When he's hiking, he is connected in the greatest way imaginable. I really enjoy just following behind him and just watching him navigate and have his conversations.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  He'll put his arms up or whatever it is he might be doing. And so. You know, it's funny because so many parents are so interested about the hill. And I think the hill is fascinating and I know Joe, Joe calls them. When we asked him about the hill, he said, um, he likes the lights off at night so that he can connect to his silent amigos. He says, they tell stories of their days and I tell jokes. And I think that's a beautiful, I like the way that Suzy Miller puts it, chat room. She's, she calls them, it's like in the hill, like they go to their different chat rooms. But I think we sometimes forget the fact that it's more than the hill. It is a connection to all things.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  It's, it's a shared consciousness moment of, of all that's in this world. And I think that that's where we discount a lot of their meltdowns as being self injurious because, you know, there's something really horrible going on, but there's, they're also bringing in a lot of energy all the time. And they, they can connect to whatever they need to connect to. So. So the nature makes sense that it could be a grounded place because all those trees, all that earth, they want to take in. They want to take in whatever we want to let go. They're, they're there for us. They're, they're there to help us breathe better and to help us stand grounded and to hold us up.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  And we have to remember that when these individuals are not allowed to be outside, they're literally being kept from the very thing that could be healing them. Yep. And I say healing is a very loose term. I don't mean healing from autism. I mean, healing from pain and suffering.

• 27:07Ky Dickens?

  I, I, it's so beautiful. You just said that because I was thinking about different stories. Parents have told me where they went to look at, okay, what are options out there if I ever had to put my kid in, in institution or send them to school for you or whatever. And every parent that I've talked to so far has been like, these places are awful. Like fluorescent lights, like cold floors. It feels like a prison. And the exact opposite is what's restorative. I mean, for all of us, but I think especially for people with apraxia. Where, I mean, I've just, I've watched, I'm sure you watch it every day, like where if you take someone with apraxia, who has a difficult time managing their body.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:41Ky Dickens?

  Being out in the woods is like a game changer.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  And it can be your backyard. Just let, let them take off their shoes. Let them touch the earth. Even just being out in any form of nature, in a nearby park, whatever it takes. Let them have those experiences. But yeah, you're right. You know, that's it.

• 28:00Ky Dickens?

  So what else is on this?

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Oh, this is funny. We asked, do you struggle with physical issues? And he spelled, my stomach is like a living entity that is moody. That was good. We asked, um, why do you need to connect with nature? And he spelled, this is the techno demise period, a time when technology killed the innate need to connect with nature.

• 28:23Ky Dickens?

  We sent some questions from listeners. Let's see what.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  So you had asked the question, I'd love to hear from other spellers, what advice they would give parents of young kids who have just started this journey. So Joe's answer is for young kids, stick with the things they truly react positively to. Trust their instincts. You will know when it's not worth it. And then we asked, what do you have to say when someone has a less than ideal first session with spelling? For example, give yourself a number, no less than 10, then reassess how you feel after, after. I bet there is a change. Joe is very, very big about reassessing. Everything that we do these days, he says, let's check back in in three weeks. Let's do this and then check back in in three weeks.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  He, he likes to give things an opportunity to work and he's, it's a big message of his is, you know, don't, don't just give up on it. Let's just reassess.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Next question was, I have observed that some non-speakers appear to demonstrate a form of knowing that goes beyond typical intuition. In certain cases, they seem able to anticipate future events or outcomes with notable consistency. From your perception, she asks, how should this phenomenon be understood? So Joe says, I think that intuition is something that most people overlook or discount as luck or chance. The non-speakers simply get messages without having to name it. That was a really big thing when I heard that because we're so big about, are you a savant? Can you do this? What are we going to call this? Is this telepathy? Is it shared consciousness? Is it, is this?

• 30:04Speaker 02

  And it's just like, the non-speakers don't have a desire to name it. They, it just is. I love that. What was that line again? The non-speakers simply get messages without having to name it. And then he says, I don't really consider myself a savant, but I will say my curiosity runs deep. I love that. Okay. The next question is, are all non-speakers able to communicate telepathically? He said, they think and learn differently. They strive towards connection, but they never lose their ability. Non-speakers telepathically listen for those who are ready to connect. So I think this is a question that comes up quite a bit is, I was actually just talking

• 30:46Speaker 02

  to Libby about this, this morning, is that a lot of people have the question of, I don't want them hearing my thoughts. I don't want them knowing what I'm thinking. And what he's been trying to explain is that The non-speakers look for who wants to be connected to. They're not just simply going around reading thoughts. They're looking for those who want to connect.

• 31:08Ky Dickens?

  I do think there is this privacy too, where it's like if you're tuning into them and in a moment of wanting to really connect, I think there is sometimes an openness that transpires. And I think with parents or people they're really close to, sometimes it feels like that is way more open or really more fluid. Like he might be in your mind a bit more.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And, and of course, none of us can deny that. Like, we're, we're living it every day. We know that they know what's going on. We, we don't have to, we don't have to speak that they understand what's happening. And it's really interesting though, because though now, because remember, I, I got, I got into presuming competence, spelling and telepathy, all within a matter of three weeks.

• 31:50Ky Dickens?

  Wow.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  So I'm like now, you know, I did, I had, like, the presumed competence part of me says, tell him your schedule for the day, write it down so he can see it, so he understands what it is that we're doing for the day. And the speller part of me is asking the questions, but then the telepathy side of me is like, do I have to really do any of this?

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Can I just put it out there? And so I think we're still trying to find our way with a lot of this as well.

• 32:21Ky Dickens?

  Yeah, it really is amazing, the transformation, I think. Well, more just like presuming competence, right?

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Up until three years ago, I will say, Joe, I felt I got the short end of the deal. I, I got the short stick. I got the, I got the tough card. And now I have a front row seat. I have a front row seat to one of the most exciting times in history. And the joy I feel every single day is like nothing else.

• 32:53Ky Dickens?

  It's beautiful. Is there anything, any advice or anything that Joe has said that you really would like to have people know?

• 33:01Speaker 02

  I, I think we, what we're in for right now is

• 33:06Speaker 02

  We're hearing it from all of the great spiritual teachers. They're all saying the same thing, like this huge awakening is happening. It's everybody, like the systems are breaking down. It's everything is shifting. And it's the non-speakers who have zero skin in the game. They don't have a course to sell. They don't have a lecture to attend. They're all giving this beautiful message of this love and that we just need to love each other. And they don't seem to have any fear with this. They, they're not holding on to the fear.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  So it seems to me that if they're so tapped in, and I know he's tapped in because I, I see him the way that he connects with, with his world, is that if they're not afraid, if they know that the message is all about love, then we all just need to calm down a little bit. And, and, and I keep going back to this and not try to put it in a box. Like let it be whatever it's supposed to be. We're all so, so concerned with controlling what's next. And we feel like if we're afraid of it, then we're somehow gonna make it easier for when it happens.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  As opposed to just being like, well, what if it happens in our favor? What if something good is happening? What if this is exactly what needs to happen? Because what Joe has explained to me before too, is that it's all because of contrast. And if you look, think of a trampoline and you, you, you take like little teeny bumps on that trampoline. You don't do much. I went really far down. I like, I was, I was so far down on that trampoline and my husband died. I went through bankruptcy. I had a son who didn't speak and hit his head all the time.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  I went through the lowest of that trampoline sinking as far as those springs would take it. And it catapulted me up so frickin' high.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  That now I just, I just, I'm so in love with life. And that's what happens with contrast. So when we have these negative things that happen, instead of being so angry that things happen to us, bless them because they're giving us direction as to where we want to go. Well, I definitely don't want to go there again, so I'm, I'm gonna do it. And then what, what my big message to so many parents is, is that the resiliency that us parents build, like there is no demographic you want to mess with less than us moms who have been through the wringer with our kids and the school district and the social systems and all the things that we have to go through.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  We've been through it all and we have this kind of like, you know, mama bear attitude now that is infallible because we, we know we've been in worse situations and we've gotten out of them. So we know we're going to get through whatever comes next. And that's a glorious attribute to hold on to, to be able to believe that no matter what happens, you'll find a way out.

• 36:31Ky Dickens?

  And then I think, hey, come back in.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Come on in. You want to close the door? Close, okay.

• 36:38Ky Dickens?

  Oh. I'm curious about Joe's thoughts around that. You know, you said that you feel like you have a front seat to a very exciting time in history for what's happening next. And does Joe think that we're going through a shift in consciousness or some sort of awakening? And what might be coming for all of us?

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:55Ky Dickens?

  Why that's happening? Or has he talked about it before?

• 36:58Speaker 02

  I need to compose myself for just a second. I'm sorry.

• 37:00Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  I'm just gonna get it together. Yeah, he's talked about that before, so I can talk about this.

• 37:05Ky Dickens?

  So you're feeling emotional. Tell me why. What's going on?

• 37:09Speaker 02

  So much joy. It's just such, can you imagine nearly 30 years?

• 37:18Speaker 02

  Thirty years, I can look at it as thirty years wasted. Or I could look at it as. Uh, one of. Or I could look at it as this is the most miraculous thing that's ever happened to me in my life.

• 37:32Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  So that's where I'm going. I'm not going to look at the wasting part of it.

• 37:36Ky Dickens?

  No.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  So I'm sorry, your question, I apologize.

• 37:42Ky Dickens?

  Well, you were talking about having a front seat to a very, what feels like a seismic shift. And I wanted to see what Joe has to say about that. Does he think that we're on the brink of some shift in consciousness or paradigm shift? And if so, why or what is it? What, what will the new paradigm look like?

• 38:02Speaker 02

  Right. L and O and V and. Love, this is a time of universal love. So.

• 38:13Ky Dickens?

  Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think is really important for people to understand or about this journey?

• 38:19Speaker 02

  I like to tell parents that

• 38:24Speaker 02

  they need to spend more time trusting their own intuition and teaching their children to trust their intuition as well. The, the, what I, when I first went public about the fact that Joey was a speller on social media. And then followed it up just a few months later with the, my support of the telepathy tapes.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  The amount of criticisms and pushback that I got from certain individuals.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  If I had not been so strong in my convictions, would have been really hard for me to go through.

• 39:07Ky Dickens?

  And they would like insult spelling or is it more the subject?

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Well, the whole, it's, it's, you know, the, the spelling. So those of us who post about spelling often.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  We are constantly getting messages from SLPs or educators or somebody from ASHA.

• 39:26Ky Dickens?

  And an SLP is a speech and language pathologist. And just super quick for anyone who doesn't know, ASHA is the American Speech, Language, Hearing Association, and they're like a professional scientific and credentialing association. And they will not endorse typing as a valid form of communication, and therefore it's not taught or really embraced by schools.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Right. And if people were able to do that, they would get to what they want so much faster.

• 39:49Ky Dickens?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  It should be the most exciting time of our life as we're like, our children are openly spelling, and then we have this large group of people trying to squelch us and to put the whole thing down. There's lived experience, which means more, in my opinion, than data.

• 40:03Ky Dickens?

  Yeah. And, you know, I was talking to a child psychologist this morning, actually, and one of the things that he said, and he was talking about something completely different, but he was like, the most important thing is to listen to parents, because so often parents come in and, you know, people will try to like pathologize their child or say this or say that, which is like, why aren't we listening to the people that know your kid, I mean, the child the most?

• 40:22Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 40:22Ky Dickens?

  And I think with that regard, I have not met a parent whose child is spelling, who hasn't been like, this is transformative. They are saying things that I would never, would never come up with. They're clearly their own words. They have capabilities in this, you know, on this front, like whether it's poetry or math or something. And, and to not trust the parents. I mean, I, I don't understand, you know, what's going on there? I mean, do you have any idea why the anti-spelling people are so vicious?

• 41:05Ky Dickens?

  Or so I shouldn't maybe vicious is too, but like, do you understand why?

• 41:09Speaker 02

  They're pretty aggressive.

• 41:10Ky Dickens?

  The anti, yeah, why the anti-spelling people are so aggressive.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  They're pretty aggressive, and so needlessly so. They have an industry. They have an industry. They have, they have, they have a very large industry.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  With that, they have a very large industry that's been wrong. And that is going to be really hard to reconcile. That is going to be so tough to reconcile. And when you think of when this is finally, fully understood, it's not dozens of SLPs that will be working for the school system. It's going to be communication partners that are going to be working for the system. And so there's a lot of jobs at stake. Now, the cool SLPs, the ones that I'm really loving right now, that have truly become, they're my heroes and my friends.

• 42:04Ky Dickens?

  And again, for people listening, an SLP is a speech language pathologist. And the speech language pathologist accreditation group, which is called ASHA.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:13Ky Dickens?

  Are the people that have taken the strongest stance against spelling.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 42:16Ky Dickens?

  And won't validate it.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:18Ky Dickens?

  So I just wanted to give clarity for anyone. Yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Thank you. And so the, the really, the really cool ones are, are making the switch now. They know, they, they see it. They, they know, they understand it and they're, they'd rather, they want to be a part of the party. They don't want to be left in the dust, which is what's going to happen. Because it's only a matter of time. These spellers and these non-speaking individuals, whether or not they're spellers or not, because even if they're not spellers yet,

• 42:50Speaker 02

  they're a hundred percent still aware of all that's happening. Who, who do you think is going to win? The people who are creating more rules, fighting, belittling, making parents feel bad? Or the, or the non-speakers who have total direct line to God or, or the universe, or whatever you want to call it. Like at some point, no matter whether it's a religion or just a basic faith in the universe, believe that.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  The good prevails, and it will. It really will because they've been on that bounce. They've been on this trampoline where they've bounced down very, very low. And if I had to put my bet on an industry or on the non-speakers, I'll go 100% of my bet with the non-speakers.

• 43:45Ky Dickens?

  Yeah.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  They're going to prevail.

• 43:47Ky Dickens?

  And final question, because you kind of mentioned it about like the pipeline to God. You know, some non-speakers have said they go somewhere and study at night, or they've talked to people on the other side. Has Joe shocked you with anything like that yet?

• 43:59Speaker 02

  He does a lot of laughter at night, so I definitely believe he's telling jokes. There's just so much laughter. No, he's very quiet and secretive about it, and I respect that. I feel, I'm super excited to learn more about the hill, and I'm excited to talk to Suzy Miller about it and things such as that. And I am interested to learn it, but I also feel that this is a private place for him, and it doesn't, I don't need to be a part of it and understand every little thing about it.

• 44:31Ky Dickens?

  I love that. I'm so glad that you said that because we always, we kind of have a joke. I mean, we mean it really seriously, but like, we don't want the hill to get gentrified.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:40Ky Dickens?

  I mean, like, all these people trying to go there.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  I know.

• 44:42Ky Dickens?

  And enough non-speakers have assured me, like, it's a sacred place. It's divinely protected.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:48Ky Dickens?

  Only like the truest pure of spirit are let in. If people think they're going there and they're posting that they're going there, they're going somewhere else. They're not going to our hill. And so I do believe it is protected, but, you know.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  But why do we need to know?

• 44:59Ky Dickens?

  Why do we need to know?

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, why?

• 45:03Speaker 02

  It's cool. It's interesting. It's something fun to understand a little bit. But I don't need to know where he goes. I mean, if he was a speaker, I wouldn't, at 32, he wouldn't be telling me where he went at night. So I can guarantee he doesn't need to tell me about the hill either.

• 45:20Ky Dickens?

  Yeah, yeah, I love it. So one thing that's really exciting is Bessie and Libby Ingram, Jean-Paul's mother from season one, have teamed up to create a new show, really for parents regarding what to do next now that they have all the information around non-speakers and competence and being in there and spelling and the spiritual gifts, so that parents don't have to navigate this unknown territory on their own.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  It's a crazy story. I was traveling with Joe. We were visiting his twin sister in Oregon. And I had a bit of a lucid dream with him. He, he came and he told me what needs to happen. He said, there needs to be a show. And, and mind you, I had no idea that Libby was like, knew you as well. Like, I knew she was in telepathy tapes. I'm just getting to know Libby at this point. I didn't know she had you on her speed dial. I, I didn't know any of that. And I, and Joe, so Joe comes to me and gives me all this, this huge download. And I get up in the

• 46:23Speaker 02

  morning and I write it all down. And I send it to Libby. And I just said, Libby, um, you know, I don't know if there's a way that you can get this to Kai, but we need to have a show for the parents. These parents are struggling so, so much because one of the things that I like about my role with social media and that I take very seriously is between all my platforms, I have a couple hundred thousand followers. But I read just about every single comment. And I do so because every now and then there's those one comments where they are struggling so much and I just don't want to leave them hanging. And so by doing that, I have such a connection

• 47:07Speaker 02

  to what they're all challenged with. And they're scared and they don't know what to do. And nobody's answering their questions because nobody's comfortable to talk about it. And because it's all so very new for us. So it was just the strong feeling that we need to do this show. And, or I, I should say, a strong feeling that a show needs to be done on that topic. And then, um, turns out it's me. How often has that happened to you where Joe comes to you in a dream? Um, I think it must happen more than I think because I wake up in the morning with intense

• 47:49Speaker 02

  downloads. Like, I wake up in the morning just ready to write, and I just, just write, write, write, write, write. You know, it's really interesting. It goes back into that labeling thing that he was talking about, is like, we, we kind of get into this piece of, so are these his words? Is it coming from it? And it's a shared consciousness, and that's what shared consciousness is about. It's about kind of that expansion of ideas and having co-creators to create it with. You know, when, when someone asks a question vibrationally,

• 48:27Speaker 02

  the answer is provided, we just need to be able to tap into it. So, somebody is being delivered the answer. So, that's the, that's shared consciousness that we're all shooting for, and that we all, as we connect into it more, we won't have, I don't think we're gonna find the need to label it so much in the future.

• 48:48Ky Dickens?

  Yeah. I mean, do you think that's what's, what happens with, you know, I mean, everyone's just labeled telepathy, but like, do you think it is more of a shared consciousness? Where you two, because of just your probably deep relationship, you're just merged in some way?

• 49:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. I do feel it's a shared consciousness. I think that's really what it comes down to. And I know science wants to define it. But I am just so sure of things. And that peace ness comes from not needing to know all the answers. The peaceful, the peacefulness in life comes from, we don't have to label it, we don't have to know the answers, we don't know how it's gonna play out, we're just gonna get a phone call one day and say, hey, you wanna host a podcast? Like, that's how it's supposed to happen. And we act like those are the things in life that are just like these incredible moments of, wow, this happened. It's like, no, like, like, when I talked to Joe, I don't, didn't have this on, um, his

• 49:48Speaker 02

  actual writing of this, but when I had, spoke with Joe before about why this, this telepathy tapes is, is so powerful right now, he's like, because it's the time. In our universe, in our consciousness, that it's meant to happen. It's, it's, this is the time that we're all awake for it. This is the time that we can all accept it, we can hear it. We couldn't hear it before, we would have swept it. And now we can hear it. And that's a really exciting time to be alive. We are, we are about ready to embark, I feel, in one of the most exciting times in history.

• 50:22Ky Dickens?

  It's exciting that you and Libby will be really leading the way on these questions.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  It will be, and it's going to be light and fun because Libby, you can't not have fun with Libby.

• 50:30Ky Dickens?

  No, she is so fun.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  We laugh a lot, we have a lot of fun, so it's going to be, and we're going to really be listening to the questions. We're going to be having a question of the day at the end of every, every show to be able to make sure that we're asking, answering all these questions that people have.

• 50:46Ky Dickens?

  I love it, that's perfect. This was your initial email to us, can I read it?

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:50Ky Dickens?

  Okay, "Dear Kai, as you're shaping season three, I felt a nudge to introduce myself directly. Like many parents, when I first listened to the telepathy tape, season one, there was an immediate irreversible shift. One of those moments where you know there's no going back. You said some very nice stuff, which I feel too sheepish to read. But then you wrote, "I'm writing because I believe the next evolution of this work is not just about showing that telepathy exists, but about helping parents integrate what it means to live alongside it." And I love this, he says, "Here's what I'm witnessing, that parents believe you, they believe in the telepathy, they feel the truth of it, and yet they are also adrift. They're bobbing between awe and grief, between spiritual recognition and the very human anger that comes from years of perceived suffering, self-injurious behavior, medicalized narratives,

• 51:33Ky Dickens?

  and relentless pushback from the institutions that feel threatened by anything they cannot measure or control. The science world is loud, religion often doesn't know where to place this, and parents are left holding extraordinary children with no map for how to walk forward without collapsing into blame of themselves, of systems, or their child's body."

• 51:53Ky Dickens?

  And I love that. So that email became the impetus for the new show that you and Libby are

• 51:58Speaker 02

  And that, me writing that was Joey kind of downloading it to me overnight.

• 52:03Ky Dickens?

  And I think that's an important story to share, that Joe came to you in a lucid dream to say, you must make a show about this.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, and it wasn't even me. It just says, tell Kai she needs to make a show. And then you asked me to do it. So whatever you want.

• 52:17Ky Dickens?

  It's so wild. Okay. And then I want to just get some of these questions that you, you talked about that you got from Joe. Like, what's an autism vest? And why does he wear one?

• 52:29Speaker 02

  Joe's a cyclist and I used to ride with him on the streets of San Francisco all the time. And he's a great cyclist, but he, his apraxia makes it harder, hard for him to be what some would deem as courteous. He doesn't go to the side the way he's supposed to. He sometimes gets close to the cars and we were constantly being yelled at every single time that we were cycling. And it made for a very unsettling type of, of, of activity. So one day in frustration, I got very, I decided to make a vest. I went and bought a orange safety vest and I put on their autistic be kind. And our whole lives changed overnight.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  It was thumbs up, please go ahead. It was an entirely different experience and it was going so well. And I just kept getting a nudge, you, you need to make these. And I never thought I would be doing this. I'm like, somebody else can do that. Yep. There we go. Somebody else can do it. And so I did it. I contracted them out with a company and I have these vests that I, I sell. I started a nonprofit. We don't make any money from it. It goes a hundred percent. We, the vests are only $20 and that's pretty much what they cost us. We sell these through Autism Odyssey. The thing that people, it's, when people have said to me in the

• 53:51Speaker 02

  past, but you're labeling and like, first of all, Joe chooses to wear it. Secondly,

• 53:59Speaker 02

  But is it a bad label? Like, if somebody were deaf and you didn't know that they were deaf, you could do things that might scare them or frighten them. And so sometimes labeling is about communication. Sometimes labeling, putting a name on it, is more about, how can we help give this person special considerations so that they have an easier time at it? Does he wear it everywhere? No, but when we're traveling, or we're about to go on an airplane, whatever it might be, they're incredibly valuable because he can be spontaneous and he can grab somebody's cellphone when least expected. And he was one time thrown in the streets in San Francisco

• 54:43Speaker 02

  for doing something spontaneous. And so that's why I created The Best.

• 54:47Ky Dickens?

  That's cool. I mean, it helps people meet someone where they're at.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:50Ky Dickens?

  And if someone is able to communicate, they can say whether or not they want to wear it.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 54:55Ky Dickens?

  Thank you for being here. And I'm so excited about your new show with Libby.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Thank you for giving us the opportunity. I'm looking forward to it so much.

• 55:01Ky Dickens?

  Oh, it's gonna be great. That's it for this episode of The Talk Tracks. But new episodes will be released every Wednesday. So stay tuned as we work to unravel all the threads, even the veiled ones that knit together our reality. And please remember to stay kind, stay curious, and that being a true skeptic requires an open mind. Thank you to my amazing collaborators. Producers Katherine Ellis and Selena Kennedy, technical directing, audio mix and finishing by Jeremy Cole, opening and closing music by Elizabeth P. W., and original logo and cover art by Ben Condor Design. I'm Kai Dickens, your executive producer, writer, and host.