SEAL Team 6 Operator | Andy Stumpf (throwback episode)

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:29Speaker 03

  Special Operations,

• 1:33Speaker 03

  Covert Ops, Espionage, The Team House, with your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park.

• 1:49Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 223 of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with David Park. Our guest on tonight's show is Andy Stumpf. Andy served in the SEAL Teams as an NCO and then as an officer. And he's also the host of the Cleared Hot Podcast that I'm sure everyone who watches this show is familiar with Andy and his work. So Andy, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

• 2:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, thank you for having me. Are we gonna do all that stuff that came in the intro? Like very special operations espionage? Are we gonna do that stuff? Or because that sounds awesome.

• 2:21Jack Murphy?

  We're gonna talk about it.

• 2:22Speaker 06

  We can.

• 2:24Speaker 05

  All right.

• 2:24Speaker 06

  We're winging it here tonight, guys. No script, so be prepared. We might do a little improv later. We don't even know.

• 2:31Speaker 05

  Perfect.

• 2:33Jack Murphy?

  Cool, man. So I'm gonna start from the top like we do with pretty much all of our guests. I want to ask you a little bit about your origin story about, you know, what your upbringing was like, how you grew up and sort of how that took you propelled you towards the Navy.

• 2:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, there was nothing special about it. I grew up

• 2:55Speaker 05

  dead center of the road, middle class in a beach town in what they consider to be Northern California. But when I look at the map, it's still like right in the center of Santa Cruz, just on the north end of the Monterey Bay aggressively average athlete, below average student. I think my final GPA at high school was about a 1.8 and I was really reaching for the rim on that one. And, you know, I come from a military family, but I know for a fact that it was not the path that either of my parents were looking for. So on my mom's side of the house, my grandmother actually started as a Navy nurse and was discharged due to post traumatic stress of caring for people who were coming off of the front lines.

• 3:40Speaker 05

  Lied about it and joined the Army to become a nurse again.

• 3:44Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 3:45Speaker 05

  I'm just savage in so many different ways and met her husband at the time, who was a supply officer. So Army on my mom's side of the house, my dad's side of the house was Navy. His dad and his dad's brother in like 99, yeah, those two were both in the Navy. And then my father was in the Navy. He was actually on the first squadron of Jacuzzi propelled patrol boats in Vietnam, the Mark Ones, which fast forward, you know, decades later, I used to ride around in the Mark Fives. So kind of the same pool, different water in it for sure. Not a great experience in Vietnam, like a lot of people had, and he brought a lot of that home with him. So. You know, the drinking culture on the army lived very vicariously, let's just say, on my mom's

• 4:30Speaker 05

  side of the house. And on my dad's side of the house, it was not necessarily drinking, but just men who didn't want to talk about their feelings because men aren't allowed to have feelings. They just go build things with their bare hands or tear them down. Neither of those, or I've come to find out and probably knew before even experimenting with both, are a very good choice when it comes to dealing with any issues you may have. But I say all that to say that, you know, I don't know if the military left a good taste on either side of my mom, you know, my mom or my dad. My mom, I experienced it more from an upbringing perspective, kind of bouncing around being an army brat. My dad through a firsthand experience in Vietnam.

• 5:11Speaker 05

  And, you know, then I come home when I'm 17 years old and I have a Navy recruiter with me, asking them to sign permission for me to join the delayed entry program, which is idiotic, thinking back about it. All I did was make the recruiter's job easier that month because I still had to graduate high school and turn 18 anyway. I don't even, still don't, to this day, don't know why that program exists. But that's the path that I took and, you know, to their credit, they never tried to talk me out of it. Not a single, hey, you shouldn't do this. This isn't what we would want for you. Lot of questions about, you know, why, like, why, why am I interested in this? What do I necessarily want to get out of it? What do I think it's going to be? But never an attempt to try to talk me out of it, which I deeply appreciate to this day and it's something that I've tried to pay forward

• 5:56Speaker 05

  with my own kids as well. And then from there, you know, the, the path into the SEAL community is unfortunately far too public, as is everything with the SEAL community. I'm sure there's several TV shows and probably an IMAX movie about enlisting in the Navy.

• 6:12Jack Murphy?

  Could I just, I just want to stop you for one second, just ask, what were the answers to those questions for you personally as a, as a 17-year-old young man? As far as like, why, what you were hoping to get out of it? What, where did that come from?

• 6:24Speaker 05

  I don't know, and I still don't have a good answer. Um, I heard my dad was not a SEAL. He worked with SEALs occasionally in the Mekong Delta, obviously, given the platform that he was on. It would be used for insertion and extraction. So I heard the term from him first, but not like, "Hey, you should go check this out." Um, but it intrigued me. And we're talking like, let's see here. When I first heard that term, we were in the late eighties. And I say that to highlight that the internet wasn't exactly as, you know, what it is right now. I didn't have a smartphone in my pocket that could access unfettered information. So I went to the library and most of the information that I could find was from Vietnam. You know, there's a little bit about World War II, but the UDT, the predecessors to the SEAL teams, you know, they weren't, they weren't doing that

• 7:09Speaker 05

  much. They were for amphibious reconnaissance and basically making sure that, you know, the catastrophes that had occurred in some of the beach landings, you know, where the landing craft would hit a coral reef and drop the ramp and people would run off of it, non buoyant gear, that that didn't happen again. So not a whole lot, but everything that I could find was just fascinating to me. It was like this magnetizing pole. And I think at 11, I certainly didn't have an answer to that question. Like, I don't know, it sounds cool. But that's also, also part of the answer now when I'm 45. It did sound cool and it was cool. Um, but it sounded hard and it sounded like not everybody could do it. And it sounded like they got to do really cool shit.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  And at 11, that sounded awesome to me. Um, I had no, you know, I mean, like, you know, looking glass forward, I didn't have any idea about 9/11 or what the occupation would actually become. The most accurate movie at the time was Navy SEALs starring Charlie Sheen, um, which I thought was, I considered to be a documentary, much like I thought the Rogue Warriors series, uh, should have been in the nonfiction section as opposed to the fiction. Both of them is galactically wrong. But it just, it hooked me. And it was really weird growing up for people to hear me be able to like, you know, that I, it's actually a terrible question. I think we ask young men and women like, "Oh, what do you want to do with your life?" Like, who the fuck knows what you want to do with your life at 14 years old. Um, but I had an answer for that and not many people have that answer.

• 8:34Speaker 05

  And then I got into the community and I was surrounded by people who had the same feeling and lack of ability to describe that desire and why they wanted to do it and what they wanted to get out of it. So it became a really uncommon narrative to the most common narrative that anybody had when I served with, which is like a total non-answer to your question. But I still, even later, with a better vocabulary, have a hard time explaining or putting a pin in like the exactly why. It just, it was what it was.

• 9:03Speaker 06

  Yeah. I, I think that's pretty common though, you know, and no matter what, you know, special operations unit or what sort of military element people think about, a lot of them, you know, a lot of people have this idea early on, and it could be the A-team or the Navy SEALs or G.I. Joe. It can be any of these things that make you think that, to make you sort of separate that thing out and go, that sounds hard, it sounds fun, it sounds challenging.

• 9:33Speaker 05

  Yeah. I mean, there's a reason why the Navy backed Top Gun multiple times, you know? Shockingly, fighter pilot recruitment went through the roof.

• 9:42Speaker 06

  Right, right. And, and for those who don't make it into the program, well, the Navy has a whole bunch of officers to choose from, you know?

• 9:49Speaker 05

  Yeah. And there's that pesky contract you sign. Oh, you wanted to fly jets and you failed. That's fine. We'll find a job for you. Oh, you didn't want to be a surface warfare officer. Yeah, it's too bad.

• 9:58Speaker 06

  Right, right. Yeah.

• 9:59Jack Murphy?

  So Andy, I, I won't ask you if your BUDS class was hard or not. I promise I won't go there, but I mean,

• 10:05Speaker 05

  They're all equally the same. Everybody says it's like the hardest, but they're all the same.

• 10:09Jack Murphy?

  No, I know. I, I'm just not going to ask you to recount, you know, did you have to carry a raft over your head? We know. Um, but I will-

• 10:15Speaker 05

  Who's gonna carry the boats?

• 10:17Jack Murphy?

  I will, I will ask you, you know, did you get the challenge that you were looking for as, as you started to go through that process and, and earn your trident?

• 10:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, the curriculum, I didn't understand the curriculum when I went through as a student. Um, I, I, it made so much more sense to me when I went back as an instructor a decade later in my career. But the cool thing about the curriculum is it's been largely the same since the forties. Um, and it just works, you know, there's something in there for everybody. And I think, looking back on it, having gone through and then applying it to others. It's just trying to figure out what it is that bugs you. You know, is it cold water? Is it sleep deprivation? Is it exhaustion? Is it being hungry? Is it all of those things? Let's find out what it is that bugs you and really suppress you as a person down to your lowest point. And then how do you make decisions?

• 11:08Speaker 06

  Right.

• 11:09Speaker 05

  While we watch you, you know, can you make good decisions? Can you follow procedure regardless of all those other external circumstances? And, you know, it's, I, I think the curriculum works because for, you know, what's it like 80? You know, about 80 years at this point, it has been able to take people to that point and ask them those questions and net largely of the people that we're looking for, you know, it's a selection course and, and not, there's no selection course that is perfect. So it's a bell curve. You get the good, bad and the ugly and everything in between. But it does a really good job of finding a way to push people to that point, which gives the instructors the opportunity to kind of take a peek into their psyche and into their soul a little bit.

• 11:49Speaker 06

  Yeah. Was there any particular challenge that you faced while you were in BUDs? That you've, that you thought would get you? Or were you kind of even keel the way, the whole way through?

• 12:06Speaker 05

  In a lot of ways, it was what I thought it would be. I mean, the, the attrition rate has been the attrition rate largely again since the forties. So that, that shouldn't be a shock to anybody. And anybody with a double digit IQ should probably ask themselves, well, why is that the case? And where does most of this attrition occur? And it's actually in the first five weeks in first phase where they're teaching you absolutely nothing. Um, and it's a physical, you know, the first 10 weeks of training in first phase, it's just purely physical in nature. It's where the, you know, the telephone poles and the obstacle course and the boats and the surf and all that stuff occurs. And where hell week occurs, where the vast majority of the attrition. Happens usually, you know, starts on a Sunday, but most people have quit by about Tuesday morning.

• 12:51Speaker 05

  But there isn't, there was not any one thing. I describe BUDS, and I'm sure this is true of any special operations pipeline that has the appropriate duration. It's not, it's not any one day or any one thing. It's the combination of all of the things. It's like taking a piece of 80 grit sandpaper and going up to somebody and saying, hey, I need you to grate this across your knuckles once. You know, the first time they do it, it's not going to be comfortable. But if you tell them, you know, they only have to do it once, it's not going to be a problem. BUDS is taking that sandpaper across your knuckles, you know, 182, 183 times. And when your hands are already bleeding and you know, they're blistered

• 13:31Speaker 05

  and it's excruciatingly painful, it's the totality of kind of doing the same thing over and over and over again. That gets people, not just one evolution in and of itself. Uh, it's, it's physically challenging, but, and again, this is, I think this is true probably of any special operations pipeline. The amount of testing that you have to do to show up for your first day. Like if you can pass all those tests from a physiological perspective, you have the ability to graduate the course. It's what fails is the muscle that's above your neck, not the muscle that's below it. So it's hard, but more people just give up than anything.

• 14:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. And then what year did you arrive at the teams? Uh, and what, what was that like? Kind of stepping in the door?

• 14:19Speaker 05

  Late 97, I checked into, uh, Team Five and I mean, it was, I don't have the vocabulary for how awesome it was. I mean, it's since I was 11, like it's all I ever wanted to do. Um, and then you walk across the quarter deck, which is the stupid naval terminology. Army guys probably just call it the front door, but we have to have some stupid term and, uh, You're surrounded by your heroes and it's badass. They're wearing like board shorts and flip flops, t-shirts and sunglasses and they're playing volleyball on Friday and having a kegger. And there here's, hey, here's your, here's your M4. Go have a good time. Here's a grenade, you know?

• 15:02Speaker 05

  Not that they would like give that to me in San Diego, but we would go out on, you know, training evolutions. It's like, yeah, I want to fly in a helicopter. Yes, I want to shoot the M60. Yes, I want to shoot the law and the AT4 and I want to do it all before lunch. And that's what they let you do. It was everything that I thought it could be.

• 15:18Speaker 06

  How, how was it with your team? You know, you're checking in, you're the, you're the new guy.

• 15:24Speaker 05

  Oh, you know how it was. It's the goddamn exact same thing it was for you. Shut up, new guy. Here's, you know, like, and I, you know, I look back on it. The single most dangerous point of my entire career, and for clarity, I mean to myself and the people that I was working with, was right when I came across that quarter deck with a lot of book knowledge and absolutely no street knowledge whatsoever. So it was like, hey, shut the fuck up. I don't, we don't care what you think you know. We'll tell you when we need you, which is going to be never. Keep your mouth shut and just try to learn.

• 15:56Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. So what was the process back then? Ooh, BUDs? And then the land warfare portion? And then would you get your, how did that work?

• 16:06Speaker 05

  Okay, so yeah, it was, uh, they were just transitioning to what was then called, what did they call it? It was called S, STT back then, SEAL Tactical Training. Before that, right before that, in the late 90s, each team ran their own post BUDs curriculum, which we intuitively, all three of us know, that's a really shitty idea.

• 16:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:31Speaker 05

  Like you have all people wearing the same uniform. I got an idea. Let's not share any information. Let's actually hide it from each other and fight for budget and relevance. And then. Decades down the road, when somebody actually attacks us, we're not gonna really be able to work with them.

• 16:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 16:47Speaker 05

  Um, it's, it was such a horrible idea, looking back, and I understand completely why they did it. Because in the absence of an actual enemy, we're of course going to fight ourselves and our fellow servicemen. So prior to when I started, each team ran their own pipeline. You do about a year of a probation where they, the team would internally put you through their own training cell, all of those things. When I got there, they did, uh, the first class of STT, which has now become SQT. And I'm not actually even really familiar, the whole pipeline that they go through. But it brought everybody who was going to be on the West Coast, most of them were guys that I had just gone through BUDs with. And they put us through the group command that oversees all of the odd number of teams, put the training on. So at least when we went back to the teams, we all had the same baseline level of training.

• 17:33Speaker 05

  And then though, each team had a different process for awarding the Trident. So I had to go, you studied up a bunch and I spent, it was two days, basically a two day verbal and practical test where you'd go to the armory and there'd be three senior guys sitting there. And I mean, there was a AR on the table, there's an M60 on the table, a SIG 226, and they're all disassembled. It's like, okay, put them back together. And also while you're doing so, you know, what's the maximum effective range? What's the, you know, the muzzle velocity coming out of it? What's, what's this, the spring, spring recoil guy, like all, you know, like you're just the full on test of knowledge. And then you'd go to the diving locker. And it's like, hey, plan a closed circuit dive, here's the tides, here's the, uh, current. Land nav, I mean, I was gonna say night vision, but we didn't have any back then, no big deal.

• 18:17Speaker 05

  And, uh, you know, you go through all the departments and then at the very end, they come together, the training staff comes together and then they awarded the people their tridents who had passed the test. And then they retested and, uh, re-treaded the people, there was I think one or two in the group that I was with. And then from there, you were integrated back into the platoon. And then you were kind of handed back over to the group training cell to do the, um, like the operational level, the platoon level training, getting ready for your pre nine 11 deployment, which was just forward staging.

• 18:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. And so when you walk through the, the quarter deck, now that I know that term, uh,

• 18:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 18:54Jack Murphy?

  What, what was like the mission profile at that time in the late 1990s? What were you guys training for? What were you looking at getting into?

• 19:02Speaker 05

  So it depended on your team. So I was a team five. We were Southwest Asia. So specifically, we were looking at North Korea invaded, uh, South Korea. Forget what the op plan was. It was like 5911 or something like that. So I was back and forth to, uh, exercise foul eagle. A half dozen times, you know, at least. Um, and so obviously that area of the world can get cold. So we were more of like an Arctic cold weather specialist. And then literally a nine iron, like a shitty nine iron shot south was team three and they were specifically focused on the desert. So they had like desert patrol vehicles, different cannes. You know, they were doing hides in the desert. I mean, I'm talking not very much skill overlay. So

• 19:43Speaker 05

  it really depended per team. Um, I remember team eight, no team four at the time. They were doing, uh, anti-drug interdiction ops. And by that, I mean, what we would probably consider now like advise and assist. Uh, I think down in like Columbia, I think team two was deploying to Europe at the time and maybe doing like a little bit of Pifwick stuff. So personnel indicted for war crimes. But like it was, it was, it was so dependent on what team you were attached to. So you can also imagine if a team got to do something like a non-permissive boarding in the Middle East.

• 20:18Speaker 06

  Right.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  With their MP5s and handlebar mustaches, which I deeply appreciate to this day. You would see people who were trying to get to team three from all the other teams.

• 20:28Speaker 06

  Right.

• 20:28Speaker 05

  Cause they're like, God damn it. We just went over to Europe. I'm like, yeah, you were in like some beautiful country drinking, drinking amazing, uh, you know, beers surrounded by beautiful women. Like I think you're going to be okay, but they wanted to be on the big mesh. They wanted to go on the Argal. So there was a lot of infighting. It was, uh, in, in hindsight, it was quite comical.

• 20:47Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, SF is kind of like set up the same way and with the different theaters and, you know, especially like you talk about 97, like that was sort of the war on drugs. All the money was going into those sexy missions into, you know, Latin America and it's, uh, and then, you know, you, yeah. So I can imagine sort of the, uh, the combat or, or the operational envy that, that was there. Uh, and some guys obviously were probably, I'm sure that some teams, you know, were like, hey, yeah, you know, we just went, went down to Columbia. We're running with the, you know, against the FARC or whatever. And it's like, oh, motherfuckers.

• 21:24Speaker 05

  I mean, there was what they said they were doing, and then you come to find out they were doing shit.

• 21:29Speaker 06

  Right, right.

• 21:32Speaker 05

  It was a, it was peacetime. I mean, it really was. So we, I mean, we trained our asses off in the hopes that the big mission would show up. We'd talk about the golden Conex box and all the things that we would get and how badass we would be. And, uh, yeah, that was, that was kind of the life, but also it was still awesome. I was working with my heroes. I mean, at the age of, I mean, I was, uh, had my trident before I was 21 years old. Flying around in helicopters, you know, shoot, move and communicate. Yes, please. Like, I'll take two. Like, that's, it's not a bad way to grow up.

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• 24:22Jack Murphy?

  So Andy, back to you. You're getting all this awesome experience. You're living the life as a young man, young Navy SEAL. We get to that point about like 2000, 2001. So where are you at personally and professionally around that timeframe?

• 24:39Speaker 05

  I was in my second platoon. We were getting ready for a really mission critical deployment to Guam. You know, just a very strategic location, a lot of stuff for us to do there. Like drink and work out and go to strip clubs. Very strategic. And actually, I take that back. So right at the end of 2001, I had already made the decision that I wanted to screen for the East Coast Command. And I had just gotten back off of that deployment about a month before 9/11, I think. And was in the process of screening in between. I started selection in 2002.

• 25:22Speaker 05

  So between like July or August of '01 to early 2002, that's kind of what my process, or not my process, but my mindset was, was complete the screening process and then just prep for the course.

• 25:35Jack Murphy?

  Were you at all concerned? Like, at any point, did you think that you might withdraw your package or whatever? Because you were worried that the whole Afghanistan thing would be over so soon that, and you'd be in training during that time?

• 25:53Speaker 05

  No, um, I mean, the FOMO is real. I feel like just about everybody in the military probably felt that. They're like, oh, my God. Yeah, I felt it again when the invasion of Iraq kicked off. It's like people were trying to squeeze an entire military career into like a 90 day deployment because they thought it was going to be a one and done. It's like, haha, joke's on you. There was more than enough for everybody, um, and then some. So I had never, I mean, the FOMO was real for sure, but the I, I, what I didn't know a lot about when I joined was development group. I hadn't, I didn't know. And it just wasn't talked about. Um, it wasn't publicized. And when people

• 26:33Speaker 05

  would screen, if they were successful, they just disappeared because they stayed there and did their job. But if they failed, they'd go to like an SDV team, or they would go out to Huma to be a free fall instructor. So you never got like a chance to really understand what the fuck was going on. Like what actually happens in selection? Like what's the actual job? But I did have enough information to realize that if anybody was going to stay busy, it probably was going to be that command. So even if like, you know, Afghanistan had been a, you know, very bright burning candle that had rapidly gone out, if anything else was going to help happen anywhere, the likelihood of being involved with that was exponentially higher out east than it was in Coronado.

• 27:15Speaker 06

  Right, right. Did they, how did you find out about it? Did they do recruiting trips to the, to the teams, uh, like to pitch anybody? Or is it just a word of mouth thing?

• 27:28Speaker 05

  In my second platoon, two of the guys, uh, two of the senior guys, one of them was, uh, the head of the comms department and I was his secondary. And the other one was the point man for, for, uh, the squad number one. They were both getting ready to go. And so I heard information about the first, I was had the ability to pick their brand like, like, what is this? Why do you guys want to go there? So I was able to like gain some of their knowledge. There was not a recruiting pitch by any stretch. There was just a Navy message that came out saying when the screening was going to be, and then it had the requirements for the package, where to be, what to be prepared to do. And that was about it. There was not that much information about it.

• 28:09Jack Murphy?

  And so then what was the, I mean, we've had a few guests on here describe a little bit about the, the selection and training process. But I mean, are there any points maybe or lessons learned or something from green platoon that you'd really like to highlight?

• 28:23Speaker 05

  No, I mean, what I would say is, because people ask me this all the time, like, well, what's the difference between BUDs and going through green team? And it's like, well, I think they call it selection and training now. I don't fucking know. I can't keep up with the acronyms, nor do I care. But it, BUDs was, are you mentally tough enough to not quit? Green team was, can you be technically proficient enough to operate at the level that we need you to operate at? So it was no longer, hey, pushups, situps, flutter kicks, pullups, running, even though I think we probably did some of those, not the flutter kicks. Everybody is exhausted by those by the time BUDs is over. I mean, there was physical components to it, but it was practical

• 29:06Speaker 05

  execution of special operations skillsets, and you were graded upon your performance as opposed to trying to get somebody to ring a bell to quit.

• 29:14Jack Murphy?

  I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, Andy, but one of the big differences between the way Army and Navy does it is, you know, all the Army units have their own selection, their own training, etc. But with the development group, it seems like the selection process is really from, because the only people who can go there are SEALs. So the selection process is, BUDs, be successful at your platoon, and then green platoon. So, so it's, it's kind of like a different sort of pathway where they're not having to maybe vet you as strongly as like, a guy just showing up at SF selection or Delta selection who maybe came off the street, so to speak, or came from the conventional side?

• 29:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, BUDs is unique, or relatively unique in the aspect that it's the origin story for everybody who ever got a Trident. I mean, you're literally shoulder to shoulder with Officer in enlisted. There's no ballooning out of the BUDs course. You share in the suffering and, you know, perceived reward, if there is any. I mean, we hang that with the students, like, oh, if you do this, you're going to get rewarded. It's a total lie for anybody listening. Don't expect a reward of any kind. It's punishment followed by punishment, as it should be, only because it happened to us. So we have to generationally pass that down to you. But, so the initial selection of the individuals and then the mentoring in the community starts when you start at BUDs. And so you're drawing from the same pool.

• 30:37Speaker 05

  My understanding of CAG is, you know, they open it all to all services. So you you're going to get a Hodgepodge, you're going to get a buffet of people. You may not understand their background or origin story to the degree that you may understand it inside of the SEAL community. And again, I'll be the first to tell you that the selection process is not perfect. We had people slide through who absolutely shouldn't, as is going to happen in every course. But, you know, it's, it's, I feel like there is a level of strength in just knowledge of who the people are to your left and right, knowing that you all came through the exact same pipeline.

• 31:13Speaker 06

  Right, right. Yeah. And, and even though there's not like the precursor sort of SFAS style selection, because everybody already did BUDs, but there's still that winnowing, like it's still on your hall file. It's still, they're still checking in with people like, is, do you trust this person? Is this somebody you would want to operate with? Which, which a hall file can be, you know, it follows you everywhere and it can be, you know, very like selective.

• 31:47Speaker 05

  And it should be. You know, one of the things that they instituted when I was a BUDs instructor was peer reviews. And, you know, we all have, we all have our public face, like who we allow people to see us as or who we want to be. And then there's who you are when nobody's around. And fuck, I was shocked as a BUDs instructor. Some of the feedback on some of what you would consider to be the top performers, resounding feedback on how they were basically just putting a mask on in front of the instructor staff. And, you know, there were tools that we were allowed to use to try to expose those things and get rid of those people. Because I'm not looking for somebody who can wear a mask, right?

• 32:27Speaker 05

  Like, the, the perfect selection course would be, you could crack the mask and see who the person is behind. And I think most of these selection courses are able to do that. But in the absence of being able to be perfect like that, I think those hall files, I, and the student feedback, I think it is absolutely essential. You know, BUDs is not a 365 day. Seven, you know, seven day a week, 24 hours. It's a Monday through Friday.

• 32:53Speaker 06

  Right.

• 32:53Speaker 05

  Other than they have a plenty of time as a class away from the instructor staff, where they can show other students who they really are.

• 33:01Speaker 06

  Right.

• 33:01Speaker 05

  And giving students the ability to give us that feedback in a a manner that didn't have their name associated with it.

• 33:07Speaker 06

  Uh, peer reviews.

• 33:08Speaker 05

  Knew that there wasn't going to be punitive measures associated with it. It really helped pierce the mask on some people.

• 33:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. So when you were going through Green Team, because you know, this is, uh, what, uh, were you there like pre or or post nine 11 or was that part of your time there?

• 33:29Speaker 05

  I started selection in 2002, so shortly after nine 11.

• 33:32Speaker 06

  Okay, so during that time, was Green Team going undergoing any changes due to like real, real world feedback that they were getting in Afghanistan at that time?

• 33:44Speaker 05

  I don't think so. Um, well, I never saw a Green Team class before that, so I can't give a totally holistic answer to that. I don't think so, because, I mean, nine 11 obviously happened, uh, in September. I'm in selection in March. Maybe they would have had 90 days worth of beta over Afghanistan.

• 34:05Speaker 06

  Right.

• 34:05Speaker 05

  And much like Iraq, early on, not very kinetic.

• 34:09Speaker 06

  Right.

• 34:10Speaker 05

  I mean, which is smart from our enemy and maybe like, maybe let's just sit this one back and see what our enemy is doing here before they go toe to toe. So a lot of the lessons that ended up being learned in blood had not occurred yet.

• 34:21Speaker 06

  Right. Right. So you get through Green Team and what was it like, you know, stepping in now, you know, your first team?

• 34:32Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:32Speaker 06

  For the second time. Um, what was it?

• 34:35Speaker 05

  They had just gotten back off a rotation from Afghanistan. It was their first combat rotation to Afghanistan. And It was fucking awesome. You know, you go into a team room. Again, it's the same thing. It's like there the vast majority of guys in the SEAL community have no desire to go to development group, which is awesome. But cool. Don't go if you don't want to go. Like, it's totally voluntary, just like getting into the SEAL community. Some people have a like a real hang up over that, and I don't understand why. Like, if you want to go do that, go do that. If you don't want to go do that, then don't go do that. To me, for me, when I heard about it, I was like, okay, this is like the next logical progression. Why would I not go do this? So it became again, entering into a room

• 35:20Speaker 05

  of people that were just like absolutely my heroes. It's like, holy shit. I just made it to the major leagues. There's a wall with everybody's name and the year that they graduated and you have a plaque with your name on it. Like, that's pretty fucking awesome because there's not a lot of names over there.

• 35:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 35:36Speaker 05

  And, you know, it the command was rapidly

• 35:41Speaker 05

  scaling up when it came to fuck, everything from equipment to support personnel to operational personnel to operational tempo. And it was awesome. It was everything that I thought being a SEAL could and would be.

• 35:57Speaker 06

  That's fantastic.

• 36:00Speaker 06

  What, when you did green team, not having any idea what was going on. So you had been a SEAL and obviously you as a SEAL, you're like, okay, I'm technically, I'm tactically proficient. I have all these skills and then you go to green team where now they're teaching you a whole new things. What like, what was that like for you? Sort of having that veil pulled back?

• 36:22Speaker 05

  I mean,

• 36:25Speaker 05

  at the JSOC level, I did it a workup and a deployment with the, you know, army component of JSOC as well with a squadron. And so I can speak broadly about what I think their mission set is. It's very closely aligned. I mean, the JSOC level, it's very closely aligned. The reason they're so good at that job is they strip away a lot of the other bullshit. You know, I described conventional special operations as a multi-tool. And let's say it's got 15 little levers that you can pull out of Phillips head, you know, an Allen key, a shitty pair of scissors and an almost useless knife. Well, at development group, I was like, it's two tools. It's like, you know, not saying we only did two things,

• 37:10Speaker 05

  but it was a reduction of responsibility that allowed you to hyper-focus on a particular skill set that allows you to get really good at it. It's like, oh, well, I can invest my entire day, shoot, move and communicate. That's literally all I'm going to practice in. And it's I have a multi, you know, $50 million kill house that has movable walls and ranges that I have access to 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. I can keep my guns in my cases. I can have a thousand rounds of ammo of any kind that I want to in my cage. Like, it had, it was every opportunity to focus on essentially actions on the objective. And that's why those commands are good at it. It's, you know, they don't do as much stuff. I mean,

• 37:53Speaker 05

  tasking development group with doing a hydrographic reconnaissance or a closed circuit dive, don't do it. I mean, they'll probably be able to get it done, but it's gonna be fucking ugly, you know? But if you're taken hostage in a remote location somewhere, I really want a JSOC unit to come and get me. Right, right.

• 38:12Jack Murphy?

  So what was like, like when you did get spun up for your first appointment? Well, where were your, where were you going? What was the, the mission at that time? And, you know, kind of what's going on for you in your, in your mind?

• 38:25Speaker 05

  So they finished us up with green team early and actually we augmented the Karzai detail, which was a different squadron than the one I was going to be attached to, but there was a, it was the tail end of it. It was after the assassination attempt. They were trying to wind it down. I think they turned it over to DynaCor. So that was my first actual trip overseas. I mean, that was, that was wild, you know, waking up in Bagram for the first time and going outside and looking around. You're like, okay, this shit's real. And then, you know, driving up to Kabul and, you know, staying at the, you know, the yellow house right there and just doing all the security stuff. And it was like, maybe, I don't know, 45 days. It was brief. Come back and immediately on the radar was the invasion of Iraq. And for whatever reason, probably random timing

• 39:07Speaker 05

  more than anything of the jort cycle, uh, my squadron got, uh, uh, up selected for the invasion. So we started training pretty rapidly towards the target set, uh, that, you know, the intel at the time was pointing us towards. Uh, our main focus at the time was going to be the number one chem bio site in Iraq. Cause I mean, anybody alive during that time period can tell you was, it was originally pitched around WMD, which is a whole conversation in and of itself, looking in the rearview mirror.

• 39:34Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 39:35Speaker 05

  So it's like, we, we had, I think the first

• 39:39Speaker 05

  three objectives that we were likely going to action. We already had the intelligence on them. We had models. We had, you know, air conditioning specialists coming and telling us why this level of air conditioning on the roof is, you know, it's definitely, this is definitely a lab. I'm like, oh yeah, it's also definitely hot as fuck there in the summer too. So maybe they need some extra AC units on the, on the roof. And, you know, that's what we were looking to do. And then, uh, we got over there. So I was there, you know, when Bush gave him the, you know, the 24 hour speech and we were just sitting in tents and RR Saudi Arabia getting ready to go. And then, yeah, the first real world operation I ever did was in full on mop level four, absolute nightmare and on what ended up being an agricultural school, which was the number one chem bio target.

• 40:22Jack Murphy?

  We, uh, we had Nelson Miller on the show and

• 40:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, he's with me.

• 40:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, he's telling us.

• 40:27Speaker 05

  I was with him, however he would phrase it.

• 40:29Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, can you walk us through it from your, from your point of view?

• 40:33Speaker 06

  And also just for

• 40:34Speaker 05

  Looking through goddamn soda straws, sweating my ass off. There you go. Objective number one.

• 40:38Speaker 06

  Yeah. So just for the, uh, I don't know, the, the enjoyment of, of our, uh, of our audience who may not understand what a lovely experience mop gear is. Can you, can you kind of tell us about it and, and how you operate mop gear?

• 40:55Speaker 05

  I mean, not well is the answer. It's for mission oriented protective posture. And just think of it as Who's that movie with like Laurence Fishburne where it was an outbreak or a bowler or something like that? Those suits were nice. They look comfortable. They were big and they look like they were.

• 41:12Jack Murphy?

  Or the big flat screen in front. Yeah.

• 41:15Speaker 05

  So imagine trying to replicate that, but you have to go run around and, you know, potentially fight people. And of course it has to be camouflage. So it's basically, and there's levels like mop level one, I think is, what is it? You have to have your mask with you, but not on something like that.

• 41:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 05

  Level two, maybe you put like the, the outer layer on, not level three is, I don't know, maybe that's the mask. Mop level four is like, you are fully chem biot up expecting to encounter an agent of some kind. So I think the helicopter ride in, it was hours long on 47s midair refueling and like 30 minutes out. You know, you're like, you got like 30 dudes in the back of a 47 all trying to get their shit on and like tucking each other's, you know, all the, the stuff that goes around the mask and under the helmet. And you're just like, this is the worst thing ever. Please somebody kill me now. And then, you know, your night vision goggle is like touching the end of your gas mask. So you already can't see through a grate anyway. And now it's farther away from your face.

• 42:12Speaker 05

  So it's just, just for people out there, just go rack, go buy at Costco, a bag of trash bags and then put them all on. And that's what mop level four is. And then look through, you know, toilet paper, actually soda straws. And, uh, you know, we started getting shot at like a minute out. Um, and the door gunner got shot in the head right next to me. I was all the way up in the front of the aircraft. I didn't even know we were getting shot at because I couldn't hear or see anything. And they nuked the power grid. Like this transport transformer, uh, complex. And then we landed the helicopter package in between the smoking, burning transformer complex and the objective.

• 42:57Speaker 05

  Totally backlit, just giving people the perfect opportunity to just take pot shots at us, which they did. Um, so there was like a gunfight going on out in the street. I was in the assault element that started going inside of the building. We had little birds overhead. We had snipers up in the little birds that were dumping people. And I'm just like, what the fuck is this? Like, we can't keep doing this. This can't be what this is like. I can't see anything, sweating to death. I ripped my mask off like two minutes after being inside of that place because it was utterly clear that it was not a chem bio threat. And I actually would have rather been killed by a chem bio threat than wear that mop level four anymore. And, you know, we get back to, you know, we fly back another three and a half, four hours. Um, fuck, I mean, one of the blocking

• 43:42Speaker 05

  positions a ranger took around like through and through, ran like a hundred yards off, realized it was a bad idea, went and got back on the helicopter. Um, you know, which is how I ended up meeting Pat Tillman because he was the guy who came in. He was like that guy secondary. It was, it was crazy. All the things that, that ended up coming together. But I remember waking up the next morning, sitting there and talking to a buddy of mine like, hey, man, I don't think it's going to go that well for us. If this is how we're going to do business over here. So there you go. That was target number one.

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• 47:43Jack Murphy?

  And then what was target number two or was it three or four Jessica Lynch?

• 47:47Speaker 05

  Two, it was number two. Yeah. And that was the exact opposite. It was like the intel was like, there's this crazy threat. And I'm sure Nelson told you like, we can only fit so many people on the helicopters. And it's like, you'll do anything you can for another service member. So we were going to take the risk that was being presented to us. They're like, oh yeah, it's a staging point for Fedayeen could be somewhere between 50 to 500. Like, uh, I think we can fit 27 on this helicopter package.

• 48:16Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 48:17Speaker 05

  But you're going to go. And then in the end they had left like the day before, you know, there's not a single shot fired inside of the hospital and it was what it was. And unfortunately it got, the person I feel the worst for is actually Jessica. Cause it got spun so completely out of control. It had nothing to do with her. Yeah. Everything to do with, I mean, I remember, I remember the first news reports. They were talking about giving her the Medal of Honor. She should be the first woman recipient of the Medal of Honor because she fought until her last round. And then, you know, she went dry and I don't know how she would have ended up getting knocked out. And then I actually had her on my podcast and was able to reconnect with her. And she told me her story from her side and I kind of explained it from mine. And, you know, she never even got a chance to fire around, you know? And but it was just so, it was interesting.

• 49:00Speaker 05

  I wish I had paid more attention to the way that it was twisted and manipulated at the time. But just quite frankly, we were busy and I didn't care.

• 49:07Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, it took a long time for the, the real story to come out.

• 49:10Speaker 06

  Well, what the other thing that was so weird is all the people coming out. Cause I remember all the stories coming out about it was, it was a hoax. That the Rangers had blank adapters on their weapons and like Bill O'Reilly was saying that, like CNN, like all the, everybody was saying that they were saying, this is what we've heard. And it's like, this is such a weird spin on this, on this operation.

• 49:37Speaker 05

  We got on those helicopters fully prepared to get our shit pushed in to try to rescue an American serviceman. Unfortunately, the, you know, the potential or the intel that we had about the enemy force, they had moved on. Yeah. It would have sucked if they were still there, but we still would have gone.

• 49:50Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 49:51Speaker 05

  And that's the thing, you don't know what the result is going to be. It's not about like what the result was like, what's important is that you fucking nut up and you get your gear on and you get on the helicopter.

• 50:01Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Was that a, a good morale boost though? I mean, after hitting a fake WMD plant, I mean, rescuing an American soldier must have been a pretty good mission.

• 50:10Speaker 05

  It was pretty sweet.

• 50:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:12Speaker 05

  Um, but again, like then we got back to RR and then within, I don't know, a couple day of, we went and hit something up at like Lake, uh, Thar Thar. And then shit shortly after that, we were on one of the first C130s into, uh, uh, Biop. It's not like you had time to be like, we put, put one up on the board for us. You just, you know, next.

• 50:33Speaker 06

  Right. Yeah. And how did the rest of that deployment transpire? I mean, was it, it was going after the deck of 52 at that point?

• 50:41Speaker 05

  Yeah. Fucking deck of cards. I mean, it was what it was. It was whack a mole. I mean, you guys know how it was like, oh, hey, we're going after this guy. It's like, sweet. Do you know where he is? No. Go look over here. Okay.

• 50:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:55Speaker 05

  And you know, you would try to derive your own intelligence and you know, the hub and networks that, you know, the ASO guys were able to develop later on were not there. It was largely sigint. But also again, like so not kinetic in comparison to what it was later on because they did what was smart. Why go toe to, I mean, I wouldn't go toe to toe. I live in northwestern Montana. You know, if Red Dawn actually played itself out, I'm not going to go out and shoot at a tank with an AR. You know, I'm going to sit back and be like, I don't know where the droids are that you're looking for.

• 51:25Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:26Speaker 05

  Cause I'm taking notes and developing a plan, you know?

• 51:28Speaker 06

  Right. So how does that trip like, uh, and for like, first off, you, you know, you're going after these, uh, these high priority targets.

• 51:41Speaker 06

  With kind of lacking intel at the time, did you have any missions you felt were, were really successful during that period of time?

• 51:50Speaker 05

  Hard to gauge success or failure, I would say from a tactical perspective. I mean, we would go and go look for somebody and sometimes come back with them. Whether or not at that time it made a difference, you know, I mean, like later on in the war, you're talking about incredibly developed cells, right, of like suicide bombers or V. And like you could go and you would be like, holy shit. Like there's 15 suicide vests that are being built right over there. And then there's like three partially constructed V-bids and you can take that cell off of the board. That those had much more of a feeling of this is making a difference than I think the early on

• 52:32Speaker 05

  deployments probably did.

• 52:33Speaker 06

  Yeah. So, uh, how does that deployment end up or wrap up for you? And then what's the next stage you get when you get back to, uh, Virginia?

• 52:43Speaker 05

  We ripped out with a CAG squadron and then, cause again, like FOMO was real. They had their first squadron there was out actually doing scud hunting. Cause they thought that's where the, the jam was going to be. And you know, there was no jam at that point. Um, and again, I think a lot of people were viewing this like, we have to get it in now. So I think they kind of wanted us out of there because we were like, we were going out every night. Um, and they saw that and they're like, how about you guys get the fuck out of here? So we got the fuck out of there because we were working for an army general. And, and then just started ping ponging back and forth between, um, Afghanistan and Iraq. You know, that, the deployment cycle at a JSOC command at that time was going to be 90 days overseas, 120 days back ad nauseam until you break.

• 53:24Speaker 06

  Yeah. And so one, uh, what was the next deployment 120 days later back to Iraq?

• 53:31Speaker 05

  Sorry, 180. It was, uh, so you had 90 overseas, 90, uh, trained up 90 standby. So yeah, it was 90, 180, 90. So about basically half of every year you released overseas. But then of course you were gone doing training trips the entire time as well too. So it was busy, the op tempo was high.

• 53:46Speaker 06

  Yeah. So go ahead, Dave. Well, I was just gonna ask, so at that point in time, did you guys become mostly focused in Afghanistan or Iraq, or were you switching off? Or did you and CAG kind of like split the, split it down the middle?

• 54:00Speaker 05

  Initially, and this is, you know, my experience with the CAG guys has been fantastic. I still have very close friends that, uh, that I served there with at A Squadron. And I used to hear like, you know, like, ah, fuck those guys. And what I think it actually was is at the higher levels, when people are starting to argue for missions and budget and relevance, that probably exists.

• 54:20Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 54:20Speaker 05

  I didn't experience that shit at all.

• 54:22Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 54:22Speaker 05

  At the operator, they're fucking awesome. They just, dude, they were, they were like team guys, but they wore an army uniform. They were like defined by our similarities, not by our differences.

• 54:31Jack Murphy?

  The same type of dude, yeah.

• 54:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, I never got a lick of like pushback. Like, we went down there and did a full workup with them before we deployed with them. And we would host them up. It's like, it was awesome.

• 54:43Speaker 05

  The higher ups, though, I think saw Iraq as probably a more fruitful tree. So, uh, CAG for a bit focused on Iraq and Dymnik for a bit focused on Afghanistan. And again, I think Sander heads prevailed and they realized it's probably not a good idea to geographically specialize like that. So we started doing cross-training deployments and that's how we kind of bridged the gap.

• 55:04Jack Murphy?

  Nice. As the, the war evolved and these units evolved too with it, I mean, could you kind of tell us a little bit about how things that, that, you know, you mentioned the intensity ratcheting up. I mean, how did it, how did the unit change? How did the culture change? And, and how did the war itself change from your guys' perspective?

• 55:24Speaker 05

  So I left the command in late 2006, so I can't speak to any cultural changes past that. What I would say is that the theaters of war matured probably just as much as the units themselves. I mean, I don't know of a unit in 2001 that was like steeped in combat experience. I mean, there just really wasn't. And then, you know, you start talking like 2008, 2009, 2010. There were units that were, I mean, it was their full-time J O B to be over there. And I think that more than anything, they just got really efficient at doing their job. I think that's one of the nice things about being at the JSOC level is you can carve away all the bullshit and get rid of what doesn't work. You still have to deal with bureaucracy and all that stuff.

• 56:09Speaker 05

  But like the support to operator ratio is oftentimes like 12 to 15 to one. That just doesn't exist, you know, at a conventional unit for a variety of reasons. But, you know, there were guys who had just so much combat experience, which I often wonder whether or not that's like a good thing or a bad thing. I have, you know, pretty deep conversations with friends like, you know, should combat exposure actually be limited? Is there a point where you start going down the back slope of that and it's irrecoverable? Um, you know, again, I don't know if there's a right or a wrong answer to that, but I think it's an interesting thought experiment. But they just were so experienced with what they did. Their ability to make real time decisions on target was like nothing I've ever seen.

• 56:55Speaker 06

  The, uh, I mean, I know in Afghanistan particularly, Iraq too, but the enemy was also evolving quickly.

• 57:04Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:04Speaker 06

  And, and being able to pick up our, you know, when they put the charms on the cell phones that will let them know that their cell phone was being pinged. Like they were getting better at, at knowing what our TTPs were and how we were developing targets and things like that.

• 57:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, we're not the only people who do AARs.

• 57:20Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 05

  You know?

• 57:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:21Speaker 05

  For every drop hole that we've all been a part of hundreds of times, they send an interviewee out there as well. And that's why, you know, I mean, not to talk about how buildings and rooms are cleared. But what I can tell you is when I was going through Green Team, they were still teaching hostage rescue clearance where you're running into every threat. You know, every door you're just running in there. And now, I mean, there better be a fucking compelling reason for me to cross the threshold of the door. Cause there's ways you can do externally that reduce the risk to the person who's doing the clearance.

• 57:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:49Speaker 05

  That came about though, because people were starting to get their asses handed to them in the corners of rooms. Where you had the tactical disadvantage for a moment when you were making entry.

• 58:00Speaker 06

  Yep. Yeah.

• 58:01Jack Murphy?

  During that timeframe is, is all of this is happening, I mean, are they, are there any particular significant operations that stand out in your mind? Either things went really wrong or things went really well and you were like, hell yeah.

• 58:11Speaker 06

  Or really funny things that happened. Yeah.

• 58:15Speaker 05

  No, I mean, my career was pretty much down the middle of the road. I mean, I was I. I don't have any super sexy stories to tell. Which I think is probably, you know, it's equally as good or bad. You know, like. A lot of times people are like, oh, I mean, why does that guy have a Silver Star or Navy Cross? I'm like, well, let me tell you about the guys who died. And the occurrence of him getting that, like, most of those awards and stories are tied to your friends die. Yeah, things going drastically wrong and people. Displaying incredible amounts of heroism and courage because they had to.

• 58:48Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 58:48Speaker 05

  Because they wanted to.

• 58:51Speaker 05

  So, I mean, it just, you know, I did the deployments that I was asked to do. I did the operations that came up for our time period. Did my time there and then moved on with my career, you know?

• 59:00Jack Murphy?

  You did mention that there were some times where you'd able to, or the unit, I should say, was able to like swipe a suicide vest cell off the face of the map. I, I mean, that must have been the both the amount of intelligence that goes into prepping a target like that. And then you guys actually actioning it. Must have been a pretty big deal at the time.

• 59:20Speaker 05

  Well, we had really good enablers, you know, the J two or S two or N two, depending on what, you know, code you want to use, which is the intelligence department. They, when they do their job well, it makes the guys on targets, that's their job is pretty easy, you know, knocking down the wrong door day after day after day or night after night after night sucks.

• 59:38Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 59:38Speaker 05

  Hit, hitting the correct target the first time and actually having a measurable impact. It feels a lot better for sure. And all of that stuff, though, and that's one of the things that I really hate. About the publicity in general, when it comes to military operations. Like it just, all the enabling personnel that actually make the sausage that actually allow all this stuff to happen, they never get their time in the light. And it sucks.

• 1:00:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, absolutely true. Although logistics guys, the, the guys, the mechanics who repair the aircraft and yeah, you don't hear so much.

• 1:00:10Speaker 05

  Doing that shit, I'm not out there throwing wrenches on a helicopter, like, come on.

• 1:00:14Jack Murphy?

  When it's a hundred and five degrees outside and yeah. Yeah. So you, you left the unit or in two thousand and six, you said you left the unit and what happened at that point in time?

• 1:00:28Speaker 05

  Went to the West Coast and did kind of like a rehab tour as a BUDS instructor for 18 months. And that's where I picked up my commission and then went to team three for my final operational deployment in 2010 to Afghanistan.

• 1:00:41Speaker 06

  So rehab tour, you got injured?

• 1:00:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, I got shot actually with CAG with a squadron on a target in Iraq.

• 1:00:50Speaker 06

  Um, you can you tell us, are you comfortable telling us about that operation?

• 1:00:55Speaker 05

  Again, it was like down the middle of the road. I think we were going after like a kidnapping cell. We were using sensors to try to triangulate somebody. And, uh, you know, sometimes you gotta walk around, make some noise when you're trying to locate somebody. And yeah, sometimes you're not as sneaky as you think you are. So we came back and retraced our steps and it's like, oh shit, the building that now has the lights on is the building that we need to go into. And sometimes people have the tactical advantage on you. And, uh, you know, I spent years like, what did I do wrong? Like, how did I not see that particular person? The reality is like, I didn't do anything wrong. It's just, you know, it's just the way that it was. Uh, but again, like, it wasn't anything like I got dropped. I got

• 1:01:39Speaker 05

  shot from like, I don't know, 15 feet away, maybe the AK round in the hip, like flat on my back. Like, there's no like crawling through 60 link and grenade pins, like Saving Private Ryan story. It's like, that sucked. I thought I was gonna die. It was horrendously painful. I was one of, I think, eight guys who got injured on that target. I mean, there were little birds coming in, picking people, taking them to the green zone. I got put into a Bradley and driven there. So that shows you how much more substantially injured other people were than myself. Metabacked out of the country and like, you know, had to figure out the rest of my career from there. And it's like, I wish there was a sexy story behind it, but.

• 1:02:17Jack Murphy?

  I mean, I, I picture in my mind, I remember being in Walter Reed, just as a liaison with a ranger who had taken a AK round to the hip and they made like an epoxy, like 3D printed sort of a thing of what his hip looked like. And the ball socket just exploded. And I mean, that's like, that's like a pretty substantial injury you're talking about.

• 1:02:38Speaker 05

  I got lucky. It missed my femur by about a quarter of an inch and it it just fried my sciatic nerve. So my actual main complaint when I got to the hospital is that it felt like my ankle was just being smashed on with a sledgehammer. So they were very like gingerly cut my shoe off. You know, and they x-rayed and they're like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Your foot's fine. I was like, fuck you. My foot is not fine. And so for me, like the, don't get me wrong, like getting shot didn't feel awesome. It felt like like a nine inch nail sticking out of a baseball bat. Let Jose Kinsenko in the middle of the steroid years wind up and take a swing at you.

• 1:03:16Speaker 05

  But the nerve pain was was by far worse and still problematic. I have a definitely reduced sensitivity and ankle stability in my left foot to this day. So I got lucky in from those terms. Yeah, if it had hit the bone, I mean. Who I mean, who knows? You guys know as well as I do. I mean, it was actually the first thought that went through my head, the number of times that I've been told that you can bleed out into the quad space of your body. If you get like an internal bleed, a femoral bleed inside of like contained like that was my first thought. I was like, well, I probably have a few minutes left.

• 1:03:51Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Speaker 05

  Before.

• 1:03:53Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, it's a fast bleed if if it's not addressed. So so you you get netevac and a Bradley. How long was it before they got you back to the States? Or did you go to launch stool first? Or like, how did that happen?

• 1:04:09Speaker 05

  Went to launch stool first, checked myself out and flew Delta home to New York where the command sent a plane up and picked me up. So I was home in

• 1:04:20Speaker 05

  three and a half days.

• 1:04:22Speaker 06

  Shit.

• 1:04:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:25Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 1:04:25Jack Murphy?

  And then what was the rehab process like for you?

• 1:04:29Speaker 05

  They like, let us know when you feel better.

• 1:04:33Speaker 05

  It was early. I mean, fuck, it was, you know, it was 2005. There wasn't a lot of people who were rolling around that were injured. I went to the naval hospital in Portsmouth, Virginia. I was having a

• 1:04:45Speaker 05

  interaction with the drugs that they had me on. And my sister, who was going through nursing school at the time, actually identified it. But I was sitting there with like a resting heart rate of 150, sweating, headache. And I go to the Portsmouth Naval Hospital and I check into like the E3 corpsman. He goes, what are you doing here? I was like, well, I have a gunshot wound to my hip. And it really fucking hurts. And he pauses and he looks at me and he says, self inflicted?

• 1:05:13Jack Murphy?

  Geez.

• 1:05:13Speaker 05

  That's, that's where we were in the war.

• 1:05:17Jack Murphy?

  You know, there's this whole thing going on called war on terror.

• 1:05:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, but they don't, you know, people are, you know, the Portsmouth Naval Hospital are going to see. The answer is almost done.

• 1:05:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Yeah. So you're kind of on your own as far as like physical rehab and all that?

• 1:05:31Speaker 05

  I was, and it sucked.

• 1:05:32Jack Murphy?

  That does suck. Yeah.

• 1:05:34Speaker 05

  And I'm glad that they have very robust systems now. I wish that I had had them at that time, but it is what it is.

• 1:05:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. So you, you go back out to the West Coast and this is about the time you, you made the, I don't know what the Navy term is, the green to gold jump, right?

• 1:05:50Speaker 05

  Yeah. What I mean, what the hell do they call it? It would be green to gold, probably, probably blue to gold for the Navy. Uh, yeah. So I don't have a college degree. And I was on my, you know, in the Navy, the big jump is E6 to E7 on the enlisted side of the house. Petty Officer First Class to a Chief Petty Officer.

• 1:06:09Speaker 05

  You have to fill the specific tours of duty along the way with leadership responsibilities for, uh, for your record to be considered for advancement. I was in the middle of my leading Petty Officer tour, which is required for advancement to E7, when I got shot. So they counted it as incomplete. So I had my record submitted to the chief's board two years in a row and it was swiped off the table. It's not even considered if you don't have that wicket checked on the box. And I didn't even know why. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? And I finally got some from somebody who was at the board who was like, and they're not supposed to say anything to anybody. But the guy was like, hey, they're not even looking at your record because you don't have your LPO tour. And I had just checked into BUDS where a guy had just started

• 1:06:53Speaker 05

  his LPO tour, which you have to hold for two years at a shore command before it will count. So I would have had to wait for him for two years, then do mine for two years, and then submit my package the next year. So a five-year, like, hamster wheel. And I started, I wanted to stay in the military and I started doing some research and I found this program called the LBO program, the Limited Duty Officer Program, which is the same commissioning source for the SEAL community, at least, that the warrant officers go through as well. It's the same package, same interview, just a different commissioning. And I did some research on it, realized you didn't need to have a college degree, it was largely based off the merits of your service record, put a package in, and got picked up, first look.

• 1:07:33Speaker 06

  Awesome. Wow. So with the, um, what, what rate were you when you went in? Cause we didn't talk about that at all, right?

• 1:07:40Speaker 05

  OS. I was a radar scope operator, because they made the change. Now everybody is an SO, which I think stands for special operator. So being a SEAL is now its own rate inside of the Navy. Before it was not. You had to pick in boot camp if you qualified for BUDS. I think there was a list of like 12 or 16 rates or MOSs for Army and Marine Corps folk that you could choose from, that they would allow you to select. And I picked mine based off the shortest school, which would net me the fastest arrival time at SEAL training.

• 1:08:08Speaker 06

  Right. And what, you know, and like you said, they've changed it now, but what a lot of, like, one of the challenges for like SEALs and divers at that time was that you had to compete, you didn't get promoted as a SEAL, you got promoted as an OS. So you were competing against people who were doing the OS job across the Navy every time you wanted to get promoted.

• 1:08:31Speaker 05

  And I had to take the OS test.

• 1:08:33Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:08:34Speaker 05

  So OS is Operation Specialist, which is a radar scope operator. You do not want me looking at a radar scope. Cause I don't know how to use one. The only time I've ever seen a mock-up of one was at OSA school. And then I had to take all of my advancement tests on questions based on that rate, which sucked.

• 1:08:56Speaker 06

  Now with the limited duty officer, like you say, it's sort of like a chief warrant or whatever, where you don't need to agree, but it keeps you from doing, does it keep you from being like a, like a, um, a, um, a, what's the, uh, the main, the surface warfare? Like the surface warfare?

• 1:09:14Speaker 05

  Surface warfare is just a segment. So you are, I don't know what they're called, but like chaplains, right? They, they're not, they're not line officers. So in the Navy, if you want to have any level as an officer, like if you want to have any input or, um, ranking inside of like the tactical hierarchy, you have to have a star on your sleeve, meaning you're a line officer. There are, like chaplain is a good example of one. They don't have a star on there and I, I can't think off the top of my head what they do have, but there is a delineation between line officers and all other types of officers. Um, line officers can fall into that chain of command and be in, uh, positions where you're making tactical decisions that non-line officers cannot. So the LDO, um, kept me inside of that line officer pathway.

• 1:09:59Speaker 06

  Okay. Okay. Great. And so your last deployment then was as an officer?

• 1:10:04Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:10:05Speaker 06

  Okay. Um, could you tell us a little bit about that? Um, I mean, you were, it was back to, was it team three?

• 1:10:11Speaker 05

  Afghanistan.

• 1:10:12Speaker 06

  To Afghanistan?

• 1:10:13Speaker 05

  Yeah. Most of the time was spent in the Nabahar province of Afghanistan. Uh, it was awesome. I was the only person in that task unit who had ever set foot in that country. And as an officer, I spent my time, uh, carrying around a 300 W mag and a javelin and shooting them both at people.

• 1:10:30Speaker 06

  So not the traditional officer job?

• 1:10:32Speaker 05

  No, not at all. And it was fucking awesome.

• 1:10:35Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, were you with a, with a platoon at this point?

• 1:10:38Speaker 05

  Yeah. So I went over there and, uh, there was an officer whose wife was getting ready to give birth. So I did a little bit of filling in for him for the first two months, then hopped in between the two operational platoons, uh, as the operations officer. But because I was the only one qualified on the javelin, they all wanted me to go with them every time they went out there because you can reach out and touch somebody with that thing. So I got to pick, you know, the position that I wanted to sit in, um, and I had been doing terrain, observation and study at that time for a long time. So let's just say I had some very choice vantage points that had a lot of overlapping fields of fire.

• 1:11:12Jack Murphy?

  And how did the war evolve from, you know, you were there early on the Karzai deployment, but I mean, now this is, what are we talking about 2007, 2010, okay. How had the war changed for, from your perspective?

• 1:11:27Speaker 05

  It was getting far more constrained for some reasons that I agree with and other ones that I have a harder time paleting. You know, right, you know, right before I got there, they came down with the no night raids guidance. And then another thing that was being really restricted was your ability to call CAS or close air support because they had just dropped a bomb on that school bus that was full of a wedding party. And, you know, those things, they have consequences. But, you know, the guidance at the time was, hey, no more night raids. So we're going to take your technological advantage and completely strip it from you. And then the CAS became an issue, especially if some people that you needed to leverage CAS against got to structures, they would not let you level the structure.

• 1:12:10Speaker 05

  You know, people always bitched about those ROEs. My thoughts on ROEs is they defined for me pretty clearly my left and right limits. And it's for me to figure out how to navigate and operate inside of those, the maximum of my ability. So that's what I focused on because I'm not going to change, you know, the CG's guidance on, you know, literally you had to sign, you know, the CAS statement and then night raid statement.

• 1:12:34Speaker 05

  Partner force was starting to get pushed on us a lot more. And then the ratio started going a lot higher, you know, like one to six to one to three to one to one. And it's like, hey, man, we're in the desert in the summer in helicopters that can hold eight people. Like, what do you actually want us to be able to accomplish here? So complications, but again, it's not, it's not your job to sit there and bitch about the problems presented to you. It's your job to sit there and figure out how you're going to work inside of those problem sets, which is what we did. But it was definitely changing. It was far more constrained. And again, for some reasons that I would agree with and others that I would probably push back on, but it was what it was, but definitely a different war. And same thing was happening in Iraq as well, too, from my understanding.

• 1:13:12Jack Murphy?

  Is, is that why you fired off so many javelins because you weren't able to use CAS the way that you guys wanted to?

• 1:13:18Speaker 05

  Now, the Javelin I ended up using because, well, so we were at a FOB in Nabahar that we literally built, like, we were staying with the ANA and A and P in their compound, which, let me tell you, that's a fucking circus. So, we built a, um, we built a FOB just outside of their area, and we had taken, I believe we had taken over Nabahar. God, was it a Team Guy element, or was it an ODA? Either way, there were some Javelin missiles that were left there, but there was no clue, which is the firing unit you need to hook to the missile. And I'm like going through the armory one day, I was like, well, what are these things? I'm like, holy shit, I know how to shoot these.

• 1:14:02Speaker 05

  And our enemy, like we've talked about, understands the effective range of both 556 and 762. And depending on what you had, which they could visually identify at that time and audibly tell, um, they would sit outside of that range. You know, a three, you know, a PKM, which is basically a belt-fed 300 wind mag, lobbing that shit in on you when you have an M4 to respond with, sucks. Damn, they know that you can't hit them. So, it was awesome because it totally surprised them, and it was, I took a half-shelled ballistic helmet and traded it straight up to an ODA weapons guy for a clue. And he was like, that's, I swear to God, I'm like, I'll fucking trade you. He's like, no problem. And so I just started launching these fucking missiles at people, and it was great.

• 1:14:47Speaker 05

  Because they had no idea of the effective range, and the top-down attack is just spectacular when people try to hide behind rocks.

• 1:14:55Speaker 06

  Awesome. So, so how did, I want to know how this happens. You're just strolling around in the ODA armory, or you're just strolling around and you go, oh, look, a Javelin?

• 1:15:07Speaker 05

  No, so it was in the armory that was left at Nabahar. It was part of the, the missiles were part of the munitions.

• 1:15:12Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:15:13Speaker 05

  But what I knew I didn't have was the clue. So then, once I realized that I had the munition, I'm like, okay, now I need the magic piece. I need the clue. Every time we would go to like a base where I knew there was an ODA, because the teams did not have any clues. I knew it was gonna have to come from the army. So I would go find the ODA, I'm like, hey, what's up, guys? You guys got any clues? Can I have one of your clues? And I finally found, uh, what do you get, what's the army? Is it a Bravo, a weapons guy?

• 1:15:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:42Speaker 05

  He pitched it to his, uh, his O3, and the guy's like, I don't give a fuck. Those things are collecting dust, so I straight up. $500 half shell helmet for probably a $50,000 clue and we were off and running. God, God, are those clues?

• 1:15:55Speaker 06

  Launching mechanism of the Javelin.

• 1:15:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, you connect it. So you end up looking through the warhead and the final firing sequence. You're actually looking through the warhead because you have to lock the warhead and then once you do and you fire it, it's a fire and forget.

• 1:16:10Speaker 06

  And, and how many Javelins would you say that you, you employed during your time there?

• 1:16:17Speaker 05

  I think it was like 14.

• 1:16:19Jack Murphy?

  Those are $80,000 apiece, I will remind you, but taxpayers money well spent.

• 1:16:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was awesome.

• 1:16:27Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. I mean, as people have seen, you know, in, in Ukraine, it's an incredibly effective weapon.

• 1:16:34Jack Murphy?

  So Andy, you come back from that, I, what, what's, what's your kind of career? What's going on for you at this point?

• 1:16:43Jack Murphy?

  You know, you're a pretty seasoned SEAL at this point in time.

• 1:16:46Speaker 05

  I realized on that deployment that that was probably my last operational lap around the track. I was having some serious issues with my ankle, especially carrying weight. And I rolled it to a degree a few times where I, I actually considered calling in a medevac for myself. Like I was getting to the point where I was on the battlefield, probably the biggest liability from a physical perspective. So I knew that it was unlikely that my operational career was going to continue. And then I got back and I talked to the officer detailer and she was like, oh, that tour didn't count either. So you need to do this one and then this one, and then this one. I'm like, what the fuck? And so I was just going to get out of the military. I was like, fuck you guys. And I was just going to leave the military.

• 1:17:25Speaker 05

  I think it was at like the 15 year mark with nothing and on my discharge physical, the doctor wouldn't sign it. And he ended up sending me to Walter Reed to NICO, which does like this robust dive, deep dive into your medical history. Hundreds of pages of documentation and it was that documentation that led to my medical retirement as opposed to just walking away from the military.

• 1:17:50Speaker 06

  And NICO, when was that stood up? Cause that, that hadn't been around for a really long time at it.

• 1:17:56Speaker 05

  It was, I went there.

• 1:18:01Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:18:15Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:18:26Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:18:32Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:18:37Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:18:57Speaker 06

  2011, 2012.

• 1:19:01Jack Murphy?

  It was probably 2010.

• 1:19:03Speaker 05

  Brand new. Yeah, it wasn't brand new, but it was newer.

• 1:19:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. And really, they kind of saved you from.

• 1:19:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, intentionally, that's not what I was there for, but the doctor was like, I'm not. I mean, it's like anybody, I never went to medical.

• 1:19:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:19:18Speaker 05

  You know, I would even like my even getting shot. I think it was like five pages in my medical record.

• 1:19:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:19:26Speaker 05

  And the guy's just like, no, you're not, I'm not fucking citing that. I was so pissed at him too.

• 1:19:32Speaker 05

  I'm like, bitch, I got plans. I got, he's just like, well, you're gonna cancel him. And I was so furious and we have reconnected. I mean, he's awesome. And now it's like, hey, dude, I owe you a lot because you did me an incredible solid.

• 1:19:44Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, he's looking out for you.

• 1:19:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's amazing.

• 1:19:48Jack Murphy?

  So you get medically retired. I mean, what were your plans when you, when you left the Navy?

• 1:19:54Speaker 05

  I was already double dipping a little bit on the weekends and working for CrossFit. So I had found that methodology of exercising when I was rehabbing myself. And the company was founded in my hometown in Santa Cruz, like eight blocks away from my parents' house. So I randomly met the founders and they were at a time where they were really rapidly growing. So I had been working on the weekends and I had the opportunity to just rotate over and become a full-time employee with them, which is what I was planning on doing, uh, absent the medical retirement. Um, and so that just delayed that a little bit, but I was still able to just in my off time, continue to work for them. So it was a pretty seamless transition from one career to I'll say the next job. It certainly wasn't a career working for them.

• 1:20:34Speaker 06

  Uh, and before we move out of your military career, uh, cause I, we can't really watch the chat so much, but a couple of things have come up that I, I think we have to hear, um, a tandem jump with a translator.

• 1:20:49Speaker 05

  That is a very long story that involves me trying to kill somebody who was vomiting on me most of the way down and trying to steer the canopy absent my permission or consent. Um, yeah, that's a story for, we don't have enough time for that. It was this horrendous jumping experience in my life.

• 1:21:06Speaker 06

  Um, and then, uh, monkeys stealing your gear?

• 1:21:12Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. That was pre nine 11. I mean, we would train in the jungle and we would go to Thailand and the Philippines and we would do like jungle exercises and,

• 1:21:21Speaker 05

  uh, you know, the guys who'd been there before, like, hey, make sure you secure your backpack. Um, because there's shit out here that's curious, that has opposable thumbs that can get inside of your stuff. And I woke up and there was a fucking monkey that had gone into my backpack and had taken my GPS and was up in a tree with it and I traded him for a five, five, six round.

• 1:21:44Speaker 06

  That's hilarious.

• 1:21:46Speaker 05

  It wasn't at the time. I was, I was like, all I could think of is the time was I am so fucked for the paperwork that I have to do to get a new GPS. Cause again, it's pre nine 11 like

• 1:21:54Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:21:55Speaker 05

  It's not the plugger. There's like a plugger or a mugger. Like there's old

• 1:21:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:00Speaker 05

  Waterproof ones.

• 1:22:01Speaker 06

  And you're like, fuck. It's not like that hundred and fifty dollar Garmin that guys were getting later on. It was like the military's secret.

• 1:22:09Speaker 05

  To get like two of these things for the entire platoon. And it was like a signature item. And I'm looking up at a monkey that has it.

• 1:22:15Jack Murphy?

  And you're gonna go to your chief and say, a monkey stole my plugger.

• 1:22:19Speaker 05

  Yeah. So, yeah, I saw that one in the field.

• 1:22:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:22:25Jack Murphy?

  So how did, uh, so you had a, uh, at least some, some, a bit of a buffer there when you transitioned out of the military, getting into CrossFit. Um, how, how did, how did post-service life treat you? I mean, how did, how did you adapt to, to, or you know, radical change in lifestyle?

• 1:22:42Speaker 05

  I mean, it was hard, but not that hard at the same time. I mean, I, I constantly tried to remind myself that what you do is not who you are. Uh, and if, I don't care who, if you join at 18 and you have like the longest military career ever, let's say you do 30 years, you still have a lot of runway left in front of you when you get out. And I, and I have found that the people who the most closely associate their occupation with their personality or their sense of who they are have the hardest time letting go. So I took the job very seriously, but I tried not to take myself too seriously and remind myself that it's just an occupation at the end of the day. Um, I miss the guys. I miss the fact that sometimes you could make the news and I was stuck

• 1:23:21Speaker 05

  watching the news. But you can figure out ways to challenge yourself and do things that are enriching and rewarding. Probably not to the degree of going overseas and, and going on target and trying to make a tactical difference. But you know, you're, you're fortunate that you ever got the chance to do that in the first place. Most people would never even understand what that's like. So fucking move on and find out what's going to be next in your life. Cause otherwise you're going to be the dude at the VFW with the hat, talking about shit that happened 30 years ago. Probably most of the stories that you're telling are totally made up, or at the very least, they have been expanded on multiple times. And at the end of the day, nobody cares and they shouldn't.

• 1:24:06Jack Murphy?

  The, I mean, what, what, what was it for you? What did you find that, uh, what ways did you find to challenge yourself that were also meaningful for you?

• 1:24:16Speaker 05

  I mean, it's, it's, it's not hard. Like people, I mean, sit down for five minutes and write a list of things that you don't want to do. And then write a list as to why. And most people are going to determine that they don't want to do it because it's hard or it scares them. That's where the most growth is going to come from you as a person. Um, so I, I enjoy learning and I actually look back on it. I think special operations in general rewards people, and by that I mean, with either opportunities or advancement, or you know, just your, your chance to do your job more. It rewards people who, who like to learn. I mean, that's really all we were expected to do was like, hey, here's a brand new skillset. Be as good of it as possible in five days. They're like, yeah, Roger that. And so you learn how to learn.

• 1:24:59Speaker 05

  And then you learn that you really like new things like that. So I played around with being a pilot. Um, I owned a gym for a while. I started doing public speaking. Um, I became a professional skydiver and bass drummer to see how far I could take that stuff. Which is what ended up leading me to being on my first podcast, which ended up leading me to getting the idea of, you know, somebody's like, hey, you should start your own podcast. I'm like, okay, fuck. I don't know if I like the idea of like putting my thoughts out there or having conversations, but maybe I should explore that. And so I just continued to try to challenge myself. It's, it's not that hard. People try to make it far more complex than it needs to be.

• 1:25:35Jack Murphy?

  Could you get into that a little bit more? Because I think there's a lot of people who know you from, you know, doing podcasts and public speaking. I think, could you get a little bit deeper into like how that came about? Yeah. I mean, you said it was kind of reluctantly in your case.

• 1:25:49Speaker 05

  I, if I would have, before getting out of the military, if I would have written down a hundred things that I thought I was going to do with my life, public speaking and a podcast would not have been on that list. It was not even something I had considered. And the first time I ever publicly spoke, I remember it was a buddy of mine's company. He was like, hey, you, the place that you worked at was called a SEAL Team, right? I was like, yeah. He goes, cool. Do you want to come talk to my business about teamwork? Because it's like, it's in the, you know, the name of where you used to work. So obviously you know a lot about it. Like, okay, I'll give it a swing, you know, for free. Um, and then the second speech came from somebody who was sitting in that audience who, and it just built over like years. I think I probably did, I don't know, shit, 30 free speeches before I ever

• 1:26:31Speaker 05

  had this, the sack to be like, hey, I'm gonna, here's my fee. And I think my first fee was like 500 bucks. I'm just like, nobody's ever been paid this much money before.

• 1:26:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I got, I had never, but also I had never. Done anything in my life where I had to try to put a value to my own time and that shit's scary. Telling people what your time costs is scary until you do it for a while and you realize that the worst answer that you're gonna get is no. And if they're gonna say no, you probably didn't want to do it anyway. And you know what I mean? Like just go lean into the shit that you are not comfortable with and you'll probably get a lot of growth out of that. You'll get way more growth than you will doubling down on stuff that you're already good at.

• 1:27:14Speaker 06

  And the the cleared hot podcast, I mean, now you're like a legit, you know, podcaster. You have people up to your place in Montana, you're interviewing people, some, I mean, tell people what that podcast is about because it's not just military stuff either.

• 1:27:28Speaker 05

  I don't know what it's about. I mean, it depends on the guest. I my litmus test for a guest is whether or not I think it would be an interesting conversation. What I love about podcasting is you get to sit across from somebody who is passionate about fill in the blank. And you can learn about something like listening to somebody talk about things that they are passionate about is fascinating to me. And the opportunity to learn is like, it's unbelievable. Just ask questions and fucking listen. It's not that hard. So it's provided a platform where I can kind of pick and choose who I want to at least present the opportunity to.

• 1:28:05Speaker 05

  I do have quite a few military people on, just whether it's friends or connections, and that is a large part of what I used to do. But I it's not certainly not like a requirement to come on the show. Um, I mean, shit, I'll talk to anybody who is passionate about something that I think is interesting.

• 1:28:21Speaker 06

  What these different uh things that you went through, you know, your time as a pilot. Now, did you work as a pilot for a while or was that just a?

• 1:28:30Speaker 05

  So some of my duties inside of CrossFit eventually became, uh, I was the pilot for CrossFit and then I was doing uh, charter uh flying as well in a Gulfstream. So there was inside and outside of CrossFit and then it became an issue of time. So I carved out, you know, or carved away the from an economic perspective, the one that was providing the least benefit, which happened to be piloting at the time. Uh, but yeah, I I put my, you know, literal metaphorical hat in the ring for a bit when it came to aviation.

• 1:28:59Speaker 06

  That's fantastic. And then with the skydiving, the base jumping, you've done uh some of the flying suit stuff like, how did that evolve for you?

• 1:29:08Speaker 05

  That was kind of just natural, you know, like inside of skydiving, there's a variety of different disciplines and some of them really hook people and some of them have really no interest and the the wingsuit stuff came from a buddy of mine. He was talking about trying to do something to raise money for charity and he was like, oh, there's what about this wingsuit stuff? And I looked into it. I'm like, all right, I'll give that a try. And most of the things that I have done in my life have been on the suggestion of other people that are more successful than myself. In especially if it's in their wheelhouse, like, hey, this is what I've been doing for a long time. And maybe you should look at doing this as well, because you seem like you'd be pretty good at it. Like, pay attention to those people, you know, especially if they're an actual friend, they're probably

• 1:29:49Speaker 05

  telling you that for a reason. That's how I fell into podcasting. But the wingsuiting stuff is what led me to being on my first podcast, which is what led me to, you know, meeting guys like Joe, who made the suggestion that I start a podcast. Yeah, but none of that had any architecture or plan to it. I was just making shit up as I go.

• 1:30:07Speaker 06

  Yeah. Do you, do you have a preference when it comes to skydiving, base jumping, wingsuit? Like, is there, do you have a passion for either of those more than the other?

• 1:30:17Speaker 05

  Well, tandem jumping, we know isn't your thing.

• 1:30:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, tandem jumping may not be your thing.

• 1:30:20Speaker 05

  And I've taken like 1500 people for their first tandem. It's fun to do. I only do it now for friends and family. It's not what I want to do for a living. I mean, there are people who are out there who literally make their living doing that. Wingsuit skydiving is really fun. It, you know, wingsuit base jumping is also very fun, but the consequences are right in front of your face. And the margins for error are very tight. And I just don't have the desire to stay current or competent enough to be able to do that. And I can just go mess around in the sky, skydiving, not risk free, but I can do it as safely as humanly possible. And I'm not worried about the long term risk there.

• 1:30:57Speaker 06

  Right. Yeah. And then your podcast, like, how did that start for you? What was, you know, the, obviously, it's evolved, you know, like, it's, it's big, and you're well known, but you started from somewhere. And how did that start?

• 1:31:15Speaker 05

  I was, one of my skydiving sponsors was 511 Tactical. And I was working with one of their brand managers at the time and I had been on Rogan's podcast and he had made the suggestion that I start my own. And, uh, the brand manager was like, well, why don't we get the gear for you to get started? And we could like, you know, presented by 511 Tactical. So they brought me by very first kit, which fit inside of a small Pelican case. There was no, no video. It was two microphones on a stand. I was literally using Rogue Fitness weights to like, hold them in place with a zoom in between. And it built from there to I think, I changed the microphones out, eventually got like a Sony Handycam.

• 1:31:55Speaker 05

  And just slowly and incrementally evolved over time. So I think it's getting close to six or seven years at this point. I mean, I'm sitting in the studio now, so I have a dedicated studio. I have a guy who does the camera switching, like you guys obviously have behind the scenes now doing that. You know, the produ- production level stuff. And just, you know, it's, everybody likes to talk about overnight successes and I have found that they take somewhere between five to 10 years and people forget that.

• 1:32:20Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:20Speaker 05

  So, it's all just slow incremental growth.

• 1:32:24Jack Murphy?

  So now things are homing along though, it seems Andy. And I mean, I'm just kind of curious, like what do you, what, what's the next challenge for you? What's on the horizon? The, the next thing that you want to take up?

• 1:32:34Speaker 05

  Well, I just opened a brick and mortar actual business, the first ever endeavor in that route. So I opened a Black Rifle Coffee franchise here up in Kalispell. Uh, which is, it's wild. You know, it's a different type of investment. You know, literally from a monetary perspective, uh, emotionally, physically, from a bandwidth perspective, you know, kind of creating a culture, creating a team that goes along with that, staying out of their way, letting the managers do their job.

• 1:33:04Speaker 05

  I am trying to do more of what I like and less of what I don't like. Um, I have adopted the philosophy that no is a much more powerful word than yes. And carving shit out of my life is what I want to do. So I spend my time doing, you know, traveling the world, doing jiu jitsu with my wife, working in the coffee shop and being there and, and making sure that that investment bears the fruit that we hope that it does. And then focusing on the podcast and all of those things exist in a three block radius where I live.

• 1:33:33Speaker 06

  For, uh, for your podcast, you know, obviously you have on other military people, but what, what are some of, and I'm not going to ask you what your favorite episodes have been, because I know how hard that question is to answer, but were, have there been episodes, uh, where you interviewed somebody that was outside your box of experience that you really just enjoyed and wished that everybody could hear this person?

• 1:34:02Speaker 05

  Uh, there've been some Gold Star, uh, widows that have been powerful, um, whether their husband was lost in combat or made the decision to, uh, end their own life. Uh, and there's also been stories of people that are just like homesteading in Alaska, you know, that just have a fa- a fascinating passion for life and a willingness to just figure shit out, even if they don't know what the next step should be. Um, I've talked to a few people who have been running for office. Those are okay. I mean, I think an episode that surprised people or like the people were shocked that I would be willing to do. And I know you guys talked to him, but it was like sitting down and talking with Matthew Cole. Like, I don't know why people think that like, I wouldn't be interested in sitting down and talking with somebody who has critical or negative things to say about the SEAL teams.

• 1:34:47Speaker 05

  It's like get in fucking line. I have critical and negative things to say about the SEAL teams. Like, you know?

• 1:34:52Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:34:53Speaker 05

  It's not, I'm not a fan of people avoiding topics because they don't want to hear what could potentially be said.

• 1:34:59Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:34:59Speaker 05

  It's like, if you don't agree with something, bring it into the light so we can investigate it. And shitty ideas, they just don't survive scrutiny.

• 1:35:05Speaker 06

  Right. Right.

• 1:35:08Speaker 05

  Do we have, uh, questions for you?

• 1:35:09Speaker 06

  We do. Uh, let's see here. Um,

• 1:35:15Speaker 06

  Cat Chaser, thank you very much for the sticker and the donation. Uh, Chief Justice Keith, uh, thank you very much. Andy Jack, David, in today's day and age, would you try out for the teams or for para, uh, para rescue? Should I try to be a PJ or to stay near home or go to Cali, Cali, uh, to be a SEAL?

• 1:35:36Speaker 05

  Hmm. I don't think there's a wrong answer there. Tough to give somebody like advice on that, right? It's it kind of depends on what you want to do. I mean, make sure you research what PJ or CCT guys do, what their role is in the in the larger sphere of special operations. And if that's what you want to do, then just dive into it headlong. If that's not necessarily what you want to do, and being a SEAL or a Ranger or Green Beret or recon, like, just make sure you have an understanding of where they fit. And that what that fit aligns well with what you want to accomplish in your career. Yeah, I don't there's I don't think there's wrong answers to that stuff.

• 1:36:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, and they're two very different jobs. So it's really more like which job?

• 1:36:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:36:17Speaker 06

  Uh, I mean, I I know, I don't know what the SEAL Team pipeline is like these days, but I know, you know, back in the day, PJ CCT had they like their pipeline, because of all the schools they got front loaded, were the envy of everybody. But you have to like the job you're doing.

• 1:36:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, if you don't like, um, like TCCC and being around like blood and shit, I don't know if being a PJ is probably for you.

• 1:36:42Speaker 06

  Yeah. Um, Joe's gotcha. Thank you very much. Uh, did your gunshot injury prevent you from returning to Dan Neck? Or are you looking to move on to do other things?

• 1:36:54Speaker 05

  It would not have prevented me. Um, I was able to, again, do that operational tour in 2010. Uh, but it was time for me to go for sure. The op tempo that I had been operating at was relatively high, young family at the time. Um, and it was the right decision for my life at that time. I probably could have gone back, not once I switched over to becoming an officer. But it was my decision to leave it, and I do not regret the decision that I made for sure.

• 1:37:20Speaker 06

  Um.

• 1:37:23Speaker 06

  Christian Holtsley, thank you very much. Uh, thank you for your service and great team training. Uh, thank you for the service. In green tree team training, do people die in training for hostage rescue? Or, uh, other will live fire around? I I think just is there a risk during like the the green team training and stuff like that?

• 1:37:43Speaker 05

  Oh, God, I mean, the whole fucking job is risky, as you guys both will know. I mean, people die in the basic SEAL pipeline, and it sucks that it happens. Uh, and what I'm about to say is going to piss people off, but I think it's essential that it does. I don't want anybody to die. And it's tragic. But I would rather have that occur there, knowing that the training that is occurring is actually preparing people for the job. Then for it to be orders of magnitude higher because they're going into an environment and occupation that they're not prepared for. There, there's no way to completely reduce the risk on a live fire range. Accidents happen, the training is hyper realistic.

• 1:38:26Speaker 05

  You know, people die and the execution of the training, it is not a safe career field. And you need to go into that with your eyes wide open. The odds are in your favor when it comes to a training accident and they're actually in your favor when it comes to combat operations. But don't lie to yourself.

• 1:38:45Speaker 06

  Kinsanza or Kinsanza, thank you very much. I'm going to wrap your question in with somebody else.

• 1:38:52Speaker 06

  And he all says, I love both your podcasts and great interviews. Thanks.

• 1:38:58Speaker 06

  Pimp Down, uh, thank you. I always wondered why Andy doesn't speak more about his Navy career. I know he's a modest man, but the story is interesting. Remy is a beast.

• 1:39:09Speaker 05

  Oh, so Remy was a guy I just had on, Remy Adalucky was a guy I put through training. He's a good guy. Yeah. Yeah, fucking doing everything, piece of shit, director, writer, producer, fucking disgust me with his success.

• 1:39:25Speaker 05

  I had a fucking average career. I would rate my career as a C. I'm not like a war story guy.

• 1:39:32Speaker 05

  Because there's nothing to like, oh, hey, there I was. Cool. So, so there was a lot of other people there too. Hundreds of people, thousands of people. Did the same shit that I did, like who gives a shit? It's just not. There's nothing to like harp on. It just was what it was.

• 1:39:55Speaker 06

  Andrew, thank you. Do each of the squadrons have a personality?

• 1:40:01Speaker 05

  Uh, yeah, for sure. I mean, it's, it's like, it's, they're like a team. Uh, and I'd say probably the same thing for CAG as well, too. Like, there are four squadrons. They each have their own logo, and they each have their own personality, and they have their own loyalty to the team as well. It's not very different than a professional sporting team.

• 1:40:21Speaker 06

  Uh, and then Jay Walker. So, because I'm going to wrap your question with this, just so we don't really harp on this topic, but, um, because I asked a question, and they both kind of go back to the Matthew Cole. Did you, did you get any flack for the Matthew Cole interview? And do you feel as though that there are issues, uh, that the, in the teams that need to be addressed? Or do you feel as though it's more, uh, that it, do you think that it is less widespread as has been portrayed?

• 1:40:52Speaker 05

  There are probably people who have an issue with the fact that I, they, they use the term platforming. How could you platform somebody like that? It's like, how about I'll do whatever the fuck I want to do with my own platform, and you can eat a buffet of dicks?

• 1:41:05Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:41:06Speaker 05

  So, um, there might be people who take issue with that. And there probably are a lot of people who take issue with some of the things that he said. But that doesn't make those things invalid. Um, I'll be the first person to tell you that the SEAL community isn't perfect. And I'm sure both of you would be the first people to tell me that the Army, Ranger, CAG, Green Beret community isn't perfect either.

• 1:41:31Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:41:31Speaker 05

  And at the end of the day, the reason for that is we're talking about human beings, and human beings bring human being problems. We've never had a period in the United States history where we had a consistent level of warfare to the degree that special operations were fighting inside of.

• 1:41:50Speaker 05

  There's gonna be good and there's going to be bad. The only thing that I think we should focus on is balancing how much time we spend talking about either. Because what you go looking for when you investigate those communities is what you are going to find. So if you go into a community and you want to write a book or a series of books, specifically the SEAL community, you want to, and if you want to write it about missteps. If you want to write it about mistakes, if you want to write it about things that shouldn't have happened, what you're going to find, if you consistently look in the shadows, is shit that's in the shadows. That falls below the bar that this country should hold that community to.

• 1:42:33Speaker 05

  And what I'll say is, that's the exact same thing that would happen in any other community that that level of scrutiny was applied to. So I don't think it's necessarily an issue of the SEAL community or the special operations community. It's a human being problem. Especially when you task a very small section of human beings to do incredibly abnormal things for a long period of time. It should, it does excuse their behavior in any way, shape or form, but you shouldn't be surprised to find it either.

• 1:43:01Speaker 06

  Right, right. And, and the thing is, is that, you know, and Jack, you know, has written quite a few very critical articles on, you know, what special forces and some of the things that have been going on recently, you know, with that type of stuff. And it, and people can hate people for that, but it's also like, we have to, we have to shine a light on these things in these communities.

• 1:43:26Speaker 06

  Because we want these communities to be better. Nobody hates these communities. We want them to be better. And you don't get better by ignoring, you know.

• 1:43:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, hey, don't hold your family hostage at gunpoint and no one will write about it, right? It's not.

• 1:43:44Speaker 06

  You know.

• 1:43:45Speaker 05

  Yeah. And again, it's like, we're just talking about human beings.

• 1:43:48Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:43:48Speaker 05

  I mean, we, we all, it's, the, you know, the suicide.

• 1:43:54Speaker 05

  Epidemic, not that I like that term, but I have spent so much time trying to make sense, rational sense of an irrational decision. Now, and I know in that moment, for a lot of people, it seems like the only rational decision. But if you look at it from a broader perspective, like it's not a rational choice. How the fuck did we get there? You know, like it's statistically higher than a lot of other communities, especially just the civilian world. If you strip away EMS, first responder, you know, that whole world, it's, it's like astronomically higher. And everybody that I've ever worked with has a different capacity for stress, for, you know,

• 1:44:36Speaker 05

  their stress relief tool, whether it could be healthy or unhealthy. And it's just, everybody gets to a breaking point at some point in time. And I think what's tough is, nobody knows when that's going to be. And a lot of times, people can really hide it. And it, and I wish we could figure out a way to not allow that to happen. But if my choice were to make sure that none of the things ever happened, that people write stories about, or destroy the operational ability of those forces,

• 1:45:11Speaker 05

  I would rather have those forces being capable and doing the job that they are tasked with doing, and figure out a better way to try to manage the aftermath. If that makes sense. Yeah.

• 1:45:21Speaker 06

  And then, Brian, thank you very much. Got to ask him about the two world records he set for

• 1:45:28Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:45:43Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:45:54Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 1:45:59Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:46:05Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:46:25Speaker 06

  Charity.

• 1:46:27Speaker 05

  So in January, we did a skydiving expedition. So we did seven jumps in seven continents in six days and we were raising money for Folds of Honor. So we started in Antarctica to Chile, to Miami, to Barcelona, to Cairo, to UAE, to Australia, which was pretty sweet. And yeah, all the money went towards charity. I think we raised a million and a quarter dollars for Folds of Honor, which is educational scholarships for Gold Star families. And also now they've wrapped in first responders as well, which is awesome.

• 1:47:01Speaker 06

  And let me just check. Dan Bash wants to know if you'll rate his dick broom.

• 1:47:09Speaker 05

  I'd be willing to rate, you know, a quality dick broom. I can appreciate one. It's a mustache. If you two are wondering what the fuck I'm talking about.

• 1:47:17Jack Murphy?

  A flavor saver?

• 1:47:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't know the army term for that, but we're talking like full Magnum P I just dusting off that shaft as it just goes into your mouth.

• 1:47:29Speaker 06

  I mean, the best, best practice.

• 1:47:32Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm from the Navy. Come on. You guys know all the gay jokes.

• 1:47:36Speaker 06

  I was a corpsman in the Navy. I was a penis machinist. So I'm right there with you.

• 1:47:40Jack Murphy?

  I have been, I have been assured that it's not gay if you're underway. I've been told that it's not.

• 1:47:46Speaker 05

  About a million times.

• 1:47:48Jack Murphy?

  I've been told that it's not queer if you're near the pier.

• 1:47:51Speaker 05

  Fair.

• 1:47:52Jack Murphy?

  I'm looking for confirmation, guys. Don't, don't play dumb.

• 1:47:56Speaker 05

  I wasn't in the fleet, so I couldn't tell you.

• 1:47:58Speaker 06

  I'm just gonna say that the village people did not do an In the Army song.

• 1:48:04Speaker 05

  They didn't.

• 1:48:05Speaker 06

  And I say that as, as a proud Navy veteran. Isaac, thank you.

• 1:48:15Speaker 06

  I want to see how I can frame this. He wants, did you ever work with any SMU or any intelligence SMUs?

• 1:48:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's kind of, it's more of a, I don't know that we can ask that, Isaac. It's more of a...

• 1:48:35Speaker 05

  Yes, Isaac, that when you're at JSOC, that's all you work with, and we can leave it at that.

• 1:48:39Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:48:48Speaker 06

  All right, this is a really long question. Josh, this would be a great opportunity to do some clarification. Andy has been very adamant about publishing, about the publishing of the Niger ambush footage.

• 1:49:03Speaker 06

  And you had an SS soldier's iPhone. However, without the footage, she never would have won any ground against the Afrikan leaders in defending her husband's legacy. Not wanting to wash dirty laundry in public, but Andy and Jack have been on opposite sides of certain current events for a long time, and both being vocal about it, from possible war crimes and corruption, troop discipline and culture. This would be a great opportunity to show the world how people of integrity can discuss conversational topics in a beneficial way and not bother, not othering or outbrowing each other. I have high expectations.

• 1:49:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't know. Let's start with how does this person know that the footage was the actual lever that made the difference? And the answer to that is, you don't.

• 1:49:45Jack Murphy?

  I don't think it did.

• 1:49:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, and so, I mean, the premise of your, of your assumption, I'm going to say is categorically false. Yeah, I had a huge problem with SoftRep posting the footage and watermarking it. And I was very vocal about that. I mean, this is the first time Jack and I have ever had a conversation. I know that you worked with...

• 1:50:09Speaker 05

  An individual that comes from the world that I came from and I don't know where anything stands with any of these people. So people can fill in the blanks if you want. He who shall not be named. Yeah.

• 1:50:18Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I stepped away from there four or five years ago.

• 1:50:23Speaker 05

  So the man has a casual relationship with the truth and I take issue with that. I have no issue with people being in business to be in business. I have people, I have an issue with people leveraging footage and watermarking it with the intention of getting eyes. But the actual intention is dropping, driving traffic to their for-profit business. If it was a mistake, it was a mistake. If it wasn't a mistake, and again, like, I know exactly what this person is talking about. But at the end of the day, I voiced my opinion and I move on. There's nothing that I can do about it. I allowed one of the widows to come on and tell her story and it was fucking powerful. And I'm glad that I did. My issue was with that individual.

• 1:51:03Speaker 05

  I addressed it directly with that individual who then proceeded to block me because they're not interested in what I have to say. And that's okay. I don't give a fuck. And I guarantee you that that person would absolutely run to me if we ever met face to face. And I'll just say there's a reason why people like that don't associate with larger groups inside of the community. It's because they're not welcome and they're not supported. So you're gonna have to do a little bit of connecting the dots on your own on that one. Because that individual is not the only person who's kind of in that boat.

• 1:51:38Speaker 05

  But at the end of the day, you know, I voiced what I thought and moved on. That's all I can do.

• 1:51:42Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, there, I mean, there's a lot that goes into all of this. But I mean, just from my perspective, but I'm not gonna sit here and try to justify things or whatever. I just say that things were handled in a certain way and they could have been handled in a much better way, in a much more professional way. And they weren't. I guess you're probably talking about Michelle. Michelle, Michelle Black wrote a book and this is, I mean, maybe, maybe this is like the more positive way to take the discussion is to direct people towards Michelle's book. She wrote a book called Sacrifice and she did a ton, a ton of research, talking to all of the people who were involved in that incident.

• 1:52:23Jack Murphy?

  And, and what her late husband went through in Niger and wrote it into a book called Sacrifice. I read it this year. I highly recommend people go and take a look at that book if they really want to know the true story of what happened out there that day.

• 1:52:39Speaker 05

  She and her unwillingness to take no for an answer uncovered far more than that video ever would. It's true.

• 1:52:48Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:52:49Speaker 06

  Um, and then, uh,

• 1:52:56Speaker 06

  Mr. Stump has interviewed several people involved in fighting human trafficking. Does Mr. Stump have any insights into the reputation of Tim Ballard and his Underground Railroad, uh, uh, O U R, among other professions, uh, professionals operating this area? Uh, Tim Ballard and O U R portrayed in the movie Sound of Freedom currently is a frequent topic of discussion for a myriad of reasons.

• 1:53:19Speaker 05

  I know almost nothing about the man, so I'd be over the front of my skis saying anything about his organization or him himself.

• 1:53:26Speaker 06

  Okay. Um, Gerald, thank you. As a big watch guy myself, I was wondering what Andy and his teammates wore. I know seals have a long history with wristwatches such as Seiko, Rolex, uh, Panerai and G-Shock.

• 1:53:39Speaker 05

  I'd say G-Shock. I mean, that's what we got issued. The other ones you listed are far, far better. I cannot afford a Panerai. Uh, the like classic team guy watch was the Rolex Submariner. And I've never been like a huge watch guy and I, the only watch I've ever bought for myself, and this is so dumb and gay to say, but because I like the James Bond filmed, uh, the Omega Seamaster, the blue one that, uh, Daniel Craig wore. When I got commissioned, I was able to justify first to myself and then to my wife that I needed an excellent timepiece so I could sit in at the table with the other officers.

• 1:54:16Speaker 06

  I love it. Yeah. I used to have an Omega Seamaster. It got stolen during a move. So, but.

• 1:54:21Speaker 05

  Oh, that is fucked up. They're such great watches. I mean, I don't ever wear the thing, but it's just like a timeless design.

• 1:54:27Speaker 06

  Yeah. Um, Jess, thank you very much. Uh, dealer's choice based on the feeling of the interview, uh, story about J-Soc operator shooting a box of Pop-Tarts on base? Or if Andy, Andy had been shot and could go back with all the nods he's gained from that day up until now, would he have stayed in longer, gotten out sooner or left at around the same time?

• 1:54:52Speaker 05

  I mean, I can answer both. Uh, I probably would have stayed in if I had been physically able to do so. And the Pop-Tart story, it's not about JSOC operators. It is about a JSOC operator. Who was in a chow hall with a fucking box of Pop-Tarts and he was sitting there, because this is how high speed we are. He would drop his mag, rack a round out that was left in there, point it at the Pop-Tart box and pull the trigger. And let's just say, one of the times he went out of sequence.

• 1:55:23Speaker 06

  Oh, my God.

• 1:55:26Speaker 05

  He 12 ringed it though.

• 1:55:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, nice. Uh, did, did he get it?

• 1:55:31Speaker 05

  He went home right afterwards.

• 1:55:32Speaker 06

  I was gonna say, did, did he get a pretty convenient flight home after that?

• 1:55:35Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Fucking chicken or steak, window or aisle. Two or one, baby. Which one won? All expenses paid.

• 1:55:41Speaker 06

  Um, and Mark Olson, I'd be interested to hear you guys touch on some of the thing in Matthew Cole's books.

• 1:55:46Speaker 05

  Oh, I already did.

• 1:55:47Speaker 06

  I feel like we kind of talked about that a little bit, like.

• 1:55:50Speaker 05

  Well, here's the thing too, and, and because people ask me all the time about the stuff that he wrote. I was not present at anything that he wrote about in that book, so I can't talk about with any level of authority or experience about what he wrote. Can I tell you that the SEAL community has fallen short and committed war crimes? Yes, it has happened. In the history of the SEAL community, it absolutely has. In the post 9 11 GWAT era, but I was not physically there on the things that he wrote about. So I can't speak with any level of, like I said, authority. I mean, if I, if I could, or I would have been there, I would tell the truth about it.

• 1:56:25Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:56:25Speaker 05

  But he is not writing about anything I was present for.

• 1:56:27Speaker 06

  Yeah. And, you know, we don't have any firsthand knowledge of anything like that. So, you know. Um, RS, thank you. Why is Joe Rogan considered the podcasting goat?

• 1:56:42Speaker 05

  I would say probably because of, I mean, the sheer number of downloads. I mean, we're in the multiple billions at this point when it comes to downloading. Yeah, here, I mean, you guys probably hear it too, but, oh, I'm gonna start a podcast. I'm gonna be the next Joe Rogan. Like, no, you're not. Like, let's remember, Joe Rogan was famous before he started his podcast.

• 1:56:58Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:56:59Speaker 05

  You know, the Fear Factor dude who was already doing comedy, who was already doing news radio. And I'm not saying like you can't be successful without that, but let's also at the, like, have a relative,

• 1:57:10Speaker 05

  Idea of what's going to be possible. I mean, the difference in distance between where Joe is at and probably the next most successful podcasters like trying to broad jump the Grand Canyon. Um, I would say he's considered one of the goats because he's curious. And he will bring just about anybody on and talk with them about whatever they want to. And I think he does a very good job of

• 1:57:31Speaker 05

  limiting what he says bases based around what he knows. And nobody's perfect about this by any stretch. But he's really honest about what he knows and what he does.

• 1:57:38Jack Murphy?

  And Andy, to your, one of your previous points, I mean, if you look at like the early Joe Rogan, it was kind of like haphazard and goofy and just sort of thrown together.

• 1:57:47Speaker 05

  JRE number one needs to go in a fucking time capsule. It was literally like a laptop screen with like little snowflakes coming down.

• 1:57:54Jack Murphy?

  And, and so, yeah, overnight success 10 years later.

• 1:57:57Speaker 06

  Right. Yeah. Have you found, um, do you feel, I know you say you don't really know what your podcast is about, but obviously, you know, you're at 122,000 subscribers, like that there's a measure of success there. Um, have you found your stride? Do you feel or with it? Do you know, do you have a sense of what works and what doesn't work at this point?

• 1:58:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I also, I mean, yes, and yes, and yes, but it's a double edged sword. I don't want to pander to anybody because at the end of the day, I'm doing this. And then I'm largely doing it for myself. It's just an extension of being curious and wanting to learn.

• 1:58:39Speaker 05

  Like you could, it'd be so easy to try to chase headlines. Like, oh, this just happened. Let's just go try to find an expert on that. And I don't want to do that. I'm interested in things that interest me and I'm honestly quite disinterested in a lot of shit that happens in society.

• 1:58:58Speaker 05

  Um, and there are things that people care about that I don't like. I don't give a fuck. How popular the Kardashians are. I would rather suck start a pistol than sit down and have a conversation with one of them. I don't care. And the episode would probably crush, right? Because of the audience that they would bring. I'm not willing to. So I mean, like, but that would work, right? So to answer your question, like, you know, it would work because podcasting is more about the, I think, the guest than it is the host. But how much are you willing to whore yourself out? I guess is the question that we all have to ask ourselves.

• 1:59:30Speaker 06

  Right, Dimitri? Yeah, yeah, no, we we had those exact, you know, we will have on, you know, we stay in a certain wheelhouse, but we'll have on an analyst and, you know, for a lot of people having on an analyst.

• 1:59:44Jack Murphy?

  That's not, it's not having an operator, but it's still a great interview.

• 1:59:47Speaker 06

  But it's still an important point of, a point, an important part of the history that we want to cover, you know?

• 1:59:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, operators don't do shit without analysts.

• 1:59:57Speaker 06

  Right, yeah, no, well, so, um, where can everybody find you? Obviously, Cleared Hot Podcast, you guys, if you enjoy this show, you'll love, you'll love this show. Um, you probably already know that, but check them out, uh, YouTube and all podcast platforms. Um, and where else, uh, Black Rifle Coffee, uh, you know, in your hometown, your brick and mortar?

• 2:00:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, uh, and then as far like, I'm not crazy active on social media, but the platform the most active on is Instagram. I mean, it's just my name, Andy Stumpf 212. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I'm out there, just kind of like all of us in the digital age. I mean, if you look hard enough, you can find everybody.

• 2:00:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, is there anything else you want to plug anymore? Charity events coming up or, uh, anything on your horizon?

• 2:00:45Speaker 05

  I have some stuff that I'm working on, but it's a little bit too early, probably to throw it out there. I've been on the, uh, been a little bit too eager in the past before and like, hey, guys, pay attention for this. And then it doesn't happen. I'm like, yeah, well, that didn't happen because I'm an idiot. And I said that that was going to happen before I was ready. So now I wait a little bit.

• 2:01:03Speaker 06

  Right, right. Awesome.

• 2:01:05Jack Murphy?

  Andy, thank you for doing this, man. I really appreciate it. And, uh, everyone watching this Friday, we're going to be back with, uh, Gary Winderer, author of the Six Silent Men series. He served as a WARP in Vietnam. Uh, really excited to have him on the show. We've done Ken Miller, we've done Larry. Uh, and now, uh, Larry wanted me to make fun of, of Gary as being the least handsome of the, of the bunch. So.

• 2:01:29Speaker 06

  I mean, it's gotta be somebody, right?

• 2:01:31Jack Murphy?

  We'll break Gary's balls a little bit, but no, he, he's a really good guy. Uh, and I mean, like, we, we talk on this show all the time about what our influences were that got us to join the military and reading those WARP books, those memoirs when I was a kid was what did it for me. So, uh, we're.

• 2:01:45Speaker 05

  I don't know how they walk around with balls that big.

• 2:01:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, and they're tiger stripes.

• 2:01:49Speaker 06

  No, yeah, that, I mean, when you interview those guys in.

• 2:01:54Speaker 06

  Like the software in Iraq and Afghanistan was so tame compared to what those guys were doing in Vietnam. It's just insane.

• 2:02:03Speaker 05

  I had John Stryker Meyer on.

• 2:02:05Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:02:05Speaker 05

  And he talking about the shit that they did. And all I could think of when he was talking, I'm thinking in my head, how much trouble you would be in if you tried to put in like a risk assessment.

• 2:02:21Speaker 05

  Operation order based off what they were doing.

• 2:02:24Speaker 06

  Right.

• 2:02:25Speaker 05

  They would laugh you the fuck out of the country.

• 2:02:28Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Yeah, John, John, John's the man, you know, and um, well, it's a, it's another whole conversation. People can go check out the interviews with John, learn more about that. Um, awesome dude. Um, so yeah, Andy, again, thank you, man, for doing this. Appreciate you spending some of your evening with us tonight and um, hope to talk to you soon.

• 2:02:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, my pleasure. And for your listeners, you guys are going to come out and we'll do one of the cleared hot podcasts. I think we agreed on November.

• 2:02:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:02:54Speaker 05

  November.

• 2:02:54Speaker 06

  November. Yep. Yep.

• 2:02:56Speaker 05

  And right around the corner, but not too far away.

• 2:02:58Speaker 06

  Yeah. And who do you have coming up on your show that you want to plug?

• 2:03:02Speaker 05

  Well, hold on. Let me see what I got like four or five in the can. Let's see what I got here.

• 2:03:06Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 2:03:07Speaker 05

  Uh, shit, I got uh, some psychedelic research uh, stuff coming up. Uh, I have a firefighter, a repeat guest, guy who actually survived a suicide attempt and now does a bunch of speaking in the firefighter first responder world about the trauma that they carry as well, too. Uh, a guy that I did ex Greenbrier officer, actually, who I did some work with teaching uh, PJs and CCT, got into the marijuana industry and had his farm illegally raided by a sheriff's department in Los Angeles. Going to bring a little bit of light and hopefully some heat onto those fuckers. Uh, it was on tribal land as well, too. So there's some nice federal guidelines that.

• 2:03:48Jack Murphy?

  Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. That's illegal as fuck.

• 2:03:51Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:03:52Speaker 05

  It is 100%. Yeah, it's almost as if there was, I mean, if only there was a software programmer app that you could use to look to see who owned the property.

• 2:03:59Speaker 06

  Right.

• 2:04:00Speaker 05

  Onyx. And a guy who started ex SEAL who started the beverage company Kill Cliff and talked a bunch about just being an entrepreneur and a post nine 11 SEAL named Todd Elrick. So that's kind of what's lined up coming up for the next month.

• 2:04:12Jack Murphy?

  Cool.

• 2:04:13Speaker 06

  Fantastic. So everybody, please check out Cleared Hot. You'll love it. Um, if you haven't already.

• 2:04:18Speaker 05

  You know, surprise yourself.

• 2:04:21Speaker 06

  All right, everybody. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Andy. We'll see you guys Friday. Yep, see you guys.

• 2:04:29Jack Murphy?

  Hey, guys. I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High Side News Outlet, which I run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week. It's going to come into your inbox, and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Eyes On and the Team House and whatever's topical or current on the High Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once a week email. It'll slide into your inbox, and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week. It's really good, man. Checking it out.

• 2:05:13Jack Murphy?

  The website for it is teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Teamhousepodcast.kit.com/join. Go there and you enter into your email list, or you enter your email into the little thing on the website, and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support and hope you'll consider signing up.

• 2:05:38Jack Murphy?

  The link will also be down in the description if you're looking for it there. And that's teamhousepodcast.kit.

• 2:05:45Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the Food Allergy Podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:05:59Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:06:10Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

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  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:06:21Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the Food Allergy Podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:06:41Jack Murphy?

  K I T, kiloindian tango dot com backslash join.

• 2:06:49Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:07:04Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:07:15Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you are not alone.

• 2:07:20Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:07:26Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:07:53Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:08:08Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:08:19Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you are not alone.

• 2:08:24Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:08:30Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:08:56Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:09:11Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:09:22Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:09:27Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:09:33Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:10:01Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:10:15Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:10:26Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:10:31Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:10:37Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:11:03Speaker 08

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:11:18Speaker 09

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:11:29Speaker 08

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:11:34Speaker 10

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:11:40Speaker 08

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 2:12:00Speaker 00

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• 2:12:56Speaker 01

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