Inside MACV-SOG: Black Ops Behind Enemy Lines in Vietnam | Ed Wolcoff | Ep. 407

MACV-SOG veteran Ed Wolcoff joins us to share firsthand stories from some of the most dangerous covert missions of the Vietnam War, operating deep behind enemy lines in Laos and Cambodia. He breaks down what it was really like leading recon teams under constant threat, from brutal ambushes and chaotic extractions to the realities of high-casualty operations. This episode also digs into the hard lessons of SOG—what went wrong, what worked, and what modern warfare still gets wrong about special operations. Get Ed's book here:⬇️ https://a.co/d/01B0r243 Today's Sponsors: GhostBed ⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! Blue Chew ⬇️ https://bluechew.com/ Get 1 month free when you buy 2 of BlueChew Gold with code "HOUSECALL" Van Man ⬇️ Go to http://vanman.shop/teamhouse and use code TEAMHOUSE for 15% off your first order. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ PRE ORDER JACK'S NEW BOOK "THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN" ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/803651/the-most-dangerous-man-by-jack-murphy/paperback/ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 — Start 01:20 — From ROTC to MACV-SOG: choosing the war within the war 05:30 — Orders to SOG: getting selected and heading to Vietnam 10:00 — First days in-country: FOB2, Kontum, and SOG reality 15:30 — Inside SOG missions: Laos, Cambodia, and the Ho Chi Minh Trail 20:30 — Casualty rates and the brutal truth of SOG operations 24:45 — Early leadership failures and lessons learned fast 30:00 — Taking over the team: leadership under pressure 36:00 — First combat missions: insertions and immediate contact 40:30 — Ambush at Tango 7: walking into an NVA base 48:00 — Teammate wounded: chaos, trauma care, and survival 55:00 — Extraction under fire: helicopters, AA, and weather 01:05:00 — Fighting off the LZ: near-death exfil moments 01:10:30 — Becoming team leader without formal training 01:20:00 — Leading recon teams: Montagnards and team dynamics 01:30:00 — Calling in B-52 strikes and adapting on the fly 01:45:00 — Intelligence failures and command breakdowns 02:00:00 — Recon vs exploitation forces: how the mission evolved 02:15:00 — Hard lessons from SOG that still apply today 02:30:00 — Medal of Honor stories and insane mission accounts 02:37:30 — Final thoughts, books, and closing Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

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• 0:55Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 407 of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with today's guest, Ed Wolcoff. Ed served in Vietnam with MACV SOG, spent time in special forces, and then served as a nuclear officer. And you were also, was it an EOD company commander, Ed?

• 1:16Speaker 03

  I was an EOD detachment commander for quite a while, and then, you know, for about seven and a half years in EOD, but also in ordinance and to include special weapons.

• 1:30Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:32Jack Murphy?

  And he is also the author of the book Special Reconnaissance in Advanced Small Unit Patrolling. I got this book and use it as a reference myself. This is, I think it is the most comprehensive book out there on this topic, the most thorough that really goes deep onto the subject of tactics and techniques and procedures that are necessary, especially in jungle warfare, which we'll talk about, I think, quite a bit later on in this interview. But first, Ed, thank you for joining us on the show.

• 2:03Speaker 03

  Thanks. Glad to be here.

• 2:06Jack Murphy?

  So, Ed, I'd like to start at the beginning with these interviews. If you can tell us a little bit about sort of your upbringing and how that took you towards eventually the military.

• 2:18Speaker 03

  Okay, graduated from high school and went to college, joined ROTC, was a member of the ROTC Ranger Company at the university where I was. And we had some Special Forces Advisors. They took me under their wing and kind of indoctrinated me in special operations. And in hushed tones, talking between themselves, they would talk about SOG. And I asked what was SOG, and it was one of these things where they said, "We'd have to kill you before

• 2:56Speaker 03

  we tell you." But they, you know, they gave some insider information. They said that SOG recon had 70% casualty rate. And I said, "Oh, that's the place where I want to go." And I dropped out of college and joined the Army as an enlisted man with the intent of realizing that dream, going airborne, volunteering all the way, going airborne

• 3:35Speaker 03

  and Special Forces and ultimately in SOG. And I achieved that. And at that point, I had no real intent to become a career soldier. But I decided to do that after my experience in SOG and Vietnam.

• 3:55Jack Murphy?

  What year was this that you joined up?

• 3:57Speaker 03

  67.

• 3:59Jack Murphy?

  Okay, so you were hearing from some of your instructors who were there early on in the war, probably like 66 or 67?

• 4:06Speaker 03

  Well, I joined the Army in 67, and then I got to Vietnam and SOG in March of 69. And then I was there for 25 months and ran 25 missions.

• 4:20Jack Murphy?

  Oh, wow. So, tell us about kind of how you got into Special Forces and going through the training back in those days. I know Camp McCall wasn't quite as built up as it is today.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's quite true. Uh, we were intense. And, uh, uh, it was, uh, there was a big focus on physical fitness. Uh, the, uh, uh, and land navigation as it is today. Uh, and, uh, back then, uh, uh, the, uh, training for special forces, uh, was in, uh, three parts. Uh, first was, you know, getting through the, uh, the basic course, uh, and getting qualified.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  Uh, then the second part was your MOS training. Uh, and then the third part was the unconventional warfare training.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  And you had an index, uh, and, uh, then you were assigned to a group.

• 5:33Speaker 03

  Uh, and, um, I chose, uh, weapons. When I was in A I T, I was an eleven Charlie, which was mortar man. Uh, and I had an affinity. I, I wanted to get into, uh, uh, close combat operations. So, uh, I selected, uh, eleven Bravo MOS, which was, you know, infantryman, light weapons, actually, and was trained in light and heavy weapons. Uh, later on, after a return from Vietnam, uh, I went to eleven Foxtrot course, and that became my secondary. That was operations and intelligence.

• 6:15Speaker 03

  Um, but, uh, at any rate, uh, my, my assignment out of training group was to the sixth special forces group. I wasn't there very long. Um, the, uh, my team sergeant and my sergeant major took a liking to me, and they sent me to, uh,

• 6:35Speaker 03

  uh, underwater operations course, scuba school. Wow. Uh, and at that point, I was a spec four.

• 6:48Speaker 03

  And I asked around the more senior NCOs about how I could get to SOG. And I found a guy who was, who was bound for Vietnam. And he gave me the phone number for a woman we referred to as Mrs. Day. Who was the assignments.

• 7:21Jack Murphy?

  Up at the Pentagon.

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Not at the Pentagon, but at personnel command.

• 7:26Jack Murphy?

  And you had to send her flowers.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  I didn't have to.

• 7:30Jack Murphy?

  Oh, a lot of guys have told me that.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, I called her up by somehow I got ahold of a phone and without anybody listening because I knew my team sergeant, my sergeant major would be pissed off by volunteering for that after, you know, they done me the favor of signing me up for SCUBA school. Anyway, it was, you know, when I was on the phone with her, I told her I wanted to, wanted to go to SOG and she said, are you sure? Because she knew what the casualty rate was. She, she had to fill all those slots. And I said, yes, I'm, I'm absolutely sure.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  So she said, okay, I'll get your, I'll get you your orders. So I was waiting around and then the class date for SCUBA school started. And back then, and probably still, there is a, kind of a make or break event in the course, which is called, the, it was.

• 8:51Speaker 03

  Pool training.

• 8:52Jack Murphy?

  Like the shark attack?

• 8:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was a harassment swim. Uh, and I had just finished successfully completing the harassment swim. Uh, and it wasn't very pleasant for me because they had paired me up with a captain and they were all after the captain and I was just kind of like a, uh, uh, you know, a, uh, coincidental casualty, you might say, but anyway, I passed that. Uh, and we went back to the barracks to get ready for the next class. And I was told that the NCOIC of the committee wanted to see me and I said, oh shit. I, I failed the, I failed the swim. I failed the harassment swim.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  He brought me in and said, you got orders.

• 9:44Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh, and he, he knew what the code was on the orders that indicated I was going to SOD.

• 9:55Speaker 03

  Uh, and he said, we'll put you on a, on a bus back up to Fort Bragg and you'll have to process out and then you're on your, you're on your way. I didn't know at that point as a, you know, a lowly spec four, that I could have asked for a, a delay until I completed the SCUBUS course. But I didn't know that at the time. So, uh, back up to Bragg, processed out and, uh, got to Nitrang where they gave me, uh, they, they further assigned me to the specific part of, uh, SOD where I was to be assigned, which was Command and Control Central or also known as FOB 2.

• 10:39Jack Murphy?

  Ed, can I just ask a question real quick? Not that I know everything about this era, but I don't think I've ever heard in the past of someone actually getting orders to SOG from the United States. It always seems like the guys talk about they arrive in country and they'd give them some kind of brief, like very vague, "We have this special reconnaissance outfit. Do you want to volunteer?" And that's kind of how they found their way in it. Was that like a unique situation that you found yourself in?

• 11:07Speaker 03

  Apparently it had changed. When SOG started, you know, got off the ground, they were actually sending Spec 4s and Sergeant E5s to O and I course to qualify them to go to SOG. And then they would be directly assigned, assigned to SOG. Well, they would have to go to the 5th Group because the 5th Group was the administrative service for Special Forces there. And then, but on the orders, there was a three-letter code on the orders within, which indicated the ultimate unit of assignment. And I didn't know that

• 11:47Speaker 03

  at the time, but it was explained to me by, by the NCOIC of the SCUBA Committee. And so I got to the, got to the Trang and processed in and then found my way on a Blackbird from the Trang to Kontum. And that was an interesting, they were, my adventure started, you know?

• 12:20Jack Murphy?

  Yes. So tell us about that kind of first couple of days arriving at CCC and what that firebase was like and the people you met there?

• 12:36Speaker 03

  It was kind of striking flying over Vietnam. It was green, rainforest everywhere, beautiful, broken up by the occasional road and village and town and city. French architecture, you know, stucco with red tile roofs and stuff like that. Very, very attractive from the sky, not so attractive on the ground. But landed at Kontum airstrip, like I said, on a Blackbird.

• 13:18Speaker 03

  And there was a tractor trailer from the FOB waiting to get the cargo from the Blackbird to take it to the FOB. So I and there was about four other folks onboard the aircraft who were inbound. And so we were sitting on the pallets as we drove out the road, the access road to the airfield. And right there was the provincial government building for Kontum Province.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  Took a right and in front of the provincial headquarters was this big open field and overgrown with weeds. And right in the middle of it was a French Panhard armored car that had been destroyed. And it kind of resonated with me that the French had been there before us and had failed.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  And so, you know, the historical aspect of that kind of rushed in on me.

• 14:40Speaker 03

  Up the road about three miles, I would say, from Kontum, from the airfield at least, passing over a bridge, and we entered the gate. Now, the FOB, for some strange reason, was divided into two by the highway. The highway is called QL-14.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  And as far as a defensive setting, I thought it was inappropriate to have a highway dividing your compound. You know, not only was it a highway for the Vietnamese, it was a highway for an enemy who wanted to, you know, to attack you on a high-speed route of approach. But I digress here. But drove in the gate, and it was chow time, and people were coming out of the mess hall. And among them was a guy who had gone through training group

• 15:44Speaker 03

  with me. His name was John Singh Martin. And John recognized me instantly and wanted me to join his team. He was not the team leader, he was the assistant team leader.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  And but there was a vacancy on the team. So he took me to see his team leader, and he basically gave me the nod, and then I went over and spoke to

• 16:27Speaker 03

  The first sergeant over at recon company headquarters. The following, so I knighted over in the team room and the following day, we went over to see the sergeant major and he gave us the in-brief, or at least part of it, and gave us the opportunity to decline the operation, indicating hazardous operation, you know, cross-border operations, all that good stuff.

• 17:04Speaker 03

  And so among us was a medic and then there was four other guys, one was an NCO, and the NCO decided that he would go to the exploitation force and the rest of us opted for recon. From there, we got in-briefed by the S2 shop and gave us the one over the world thing. We got to see the big map on the wall where the area of operations was and it was all, you know, just what I kind of expected.

• 17:48Speaker 03

  My first sergeant at that point was the guy by the name of Bob Howard. Oh, yeah. And he was a very striking in appearance, extremely well-built, powerfully-built guy, scar on his face, and St. Martin had told me that he had been submitted for his third recommendation for a Medal of Honor at that point and that he was going to get it this go-round. And of course, St. Martin was in awe of Bob Howard and as was most everybody else that

• 18:27Speaker 03

  I knew, that I encountered, is very well thought of for obvious reasons. And so...

• 18:41Speaker 03

  That was, that's kind of was my introduction.

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• 23:45Jack Murphy?

  What was CCC, Command and Control Central? What kind of was their area of operation?

• 23:53Speaker 03

  The area of operations in Laos were divided between CCN and CCC. Roughly 50/50 in the area of the Ho Chi Minh Trail. And we also got a piece of north-eastern Cambodia. And interestingly enough, that area of, I mean, it was all... There was a major supply route slicing through the southern portion of the Laotian Panhandle

• 24:36Speaker 03

  that went into the Tri-Border area. And part of that road continued on into South Vietnam, although it was all overgrown by that point. And then there was at least two branches of that road that went into Cambodia, went south into Cambodia.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  And everything, and I later found out that that particular area was an NVA base area for, it was called Base Area 609. And there was a concentration of enemy troops and enemy logistics located there. And that logistics fed not only into South Vietnam, into the central highlands, but it

• 25:38Speaker 03

  also fed into the border area along the Cambodia-South Vietnam border. So it was a vital area of interest to the enemy, and because of that, it was extremely well-guarded and very hazardous territory for operations. So I later on found out that our S2 shop had failed us in a number of respects by not

• 26:17Speaker 03

  providing us the intelligence that was at MACV headquarters, J2, and never seemed to wind up down at our level and disseminated among the team leaders. And I can tell you about a couple of operations that, for me, that revealed these kinds of things about what I was really getting into. And it turns out that the casualty rate for our recon company at FOB2 was 100%.

• 27:11Speaker 03

  Are over 100% rather than the 70% that I had been told earlier.

• 27:20Speaker 03

  And of course casualties include KIA, WIA, MIA and

• 27:33Speaker 03

  So the the reason why the casualty rate was so high was that guys would get wounded

• 27:43Speaker 03

  and they would come back to the FOB

• 27:51Speaker 03

  from the hospital, directly from the hospital. They they many of them were to be medevaced and they declined medevac to Okinawa or back to the States and and escaped from the from the hospital and hitchhiked back to the FOB. An example of that was a guy by the name of Norm Doni. Norm Doni, after Howard became

• 28:24Speaker 03

  an officer and came back to command the recon company at FOB2. Norm Doni had been with Delta Project

• 28:37Speaker 03

  at Nitrang and

• 28:43Speaker 03

  for reasons that I can discuss later. He decided to leave Delta and he was First Sergeant in Recon Company at Delta Project and he wanted to be First Sergeant in Recon Company at FOB2. So he was an outstanding individual, brought a lot of experience. He had run recon himself. Before he took the First Sergeant's job, he wanted to prove his mettle to to the to the personnel that he would be in charge of as First Sergeant. So he took, I think it was RT Texas, and he took several operations. And on one operation, he got wounded.

• 29:27Speaker 03

  And it was his left eye, a fragment, a grenade fragment penetrated his, his, his left eye. And they, you know, evacuated him to hospital and he just, he just hiked his way back to the FOB. They were going to evac him to the States to, to perform surgery on the eye and he refused. And he, he had optic fluid coming out of his, his eye and down to his cheek. And his remedy for that was just, he had a hanky and he had pat it and continued to drive on.

• 30:09Speaker 03

  And then he did another couple of missions with that before he, before he became a first sergeant. So that was the kind of guys that we had there, in leadership positions that we looked up to. And I set the example for us.

• 30:25Jack Murphy?

  Could you tell us about your first mission and kind of jockeying up for that and, you know, what the, the kind of preparation was that your one zero gave you before you went out?

• 30:36Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a nasty story, actually. The, there were a couple of guys at CCC who had gotten into special forces through the back door. The fifth group in the trang had a lot of vacancies, A teams, B teams and special projects. So they would accept a, an infantryman with combat experience with the, you know, the

• 31:15Speaker 03

  rank of staff sergeant or above, into the special forces ranks. You'd come to the trang and they'd give them a break. Didn't, never went through the selection process, never went through special forces training. And a couple of these guys really turned out to be really bad. And among them was my first team leader.

• 31:48Speaker 03

  And he didn't train the team. He was not particularly involved with the mountain yards. And he he did some things that were unacceptable as a team leader. The only deployment that I had under him was to a bright light, a week-long bright light assignment.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  Bright light was conducted out of our launch site. And the bright light operation consisted of a special, you know, a recon team designated to go to the rescue of a team in trouble. Or recover the remains of those who had been killed. Or rescue and/or recover crewmen, aircraft crewmen.

• 33:12Speaker 03

  And it was often a very hazardous job. So we went up to DOKTO, which is the launch site. And we were not called out for any rescue operations or recovery operations, which was fortunate. Because this team leader had never trained us. The training consisted of going out in the helipad and running through an immediate action drill or and do that a couple of times. And then go to the range and shoot your weapons. And not even run battle drills.

• 33:53Speaker 03

  And then come back and that was it. And both St. Martin and I were very concerned about that. Plus, his behavior was, I don't want to even talk about his behavior, frankly. I could tell you offline, but.

• 34:12Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, inappropriate for the position.

• 34:16Speaker 03

  Inappropriate for a special forces soldier, inappropriate for any soldier. At any rate, St. Martin and I went to see Bob Howard and told him what was going on with the guy. And he said, "Don't worry, I'll handle it." After that bright light, this team leader was going on leave to Okinawa, where he alleged that he had a wife. And while he was gone to Okinawa, Howard ensured that he never came back, or he didn't come back. And he

• 34:57Speaker 03

  should have, he should have been ejected from special forces, but apparently that didn't happen. And I ran into him later on, when I was an instructor at Camp McCall as a student, he was a student. And he was, he deserted.

• 35:23Jack Murphy?

  He deserted in the United States?

• 35:26Speaker 03

  Deserted the United States while he was going to that course.

• 35:30Jack Murphy?

  Oh, my God.

• 35:32Speaker 03

  So that gives you some inkling of the character. So St. Martin took us out on one operation into a very hot area called Hotel Nine.

• 35:47Jack Murphy?

  I'm sorry, just one second, Ed, before that. So when that team leader gets fired by Bob Howard, then St. John becomes the team leader? Is that how that worked?

• 35:56Speaker 03

  That was the way it was supposed to work, but St. Martin only had three missions under his belt. And that included the mission at the 1-0 school.

• 36:07Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha, gotcha.

• 36:10Jack Murphy?

  So who was in charge?

• 36:11Speaker 03

  Realistically, he only had two, two missions on the ground.

• 36:16Speaker 03

  And, uh, uh, and the reason why that loser had become team leader, uh, was because just before I got there,

• 36:31Speaker 03

  uh, the team had gotten in, into a contact and the team leader had been killed and the assistant team leader had been, uh, severely wounded and medevaced back to the States. So the radio man wound up being the team leader. And he wound up being the team leader because he had claimed to have been a recon team leader in the 173rd.

• 37:00Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh,

• 37:07Speaker 03

  it was just, uh,

• 37:08Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. So, so Hotel Nine, who was running the team when you guys went in?

• 37:14Speaker 03

  So St. Martin, uh, was given the team, but we already had a designee to take over the team.

• 37:24Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha.

• 37:25Speaker 03

  Identified. Uh, at this point, uh, I think, uh,

• 37:33Speaker 03

  well,

• 37:36Speaker 03

  this was another guy from the 173rd.

• 37:40Speaker 03

  And, uh,

• 37:44Speaker 03

  the, uh,

• 37:47Speaker 03

  he was, uh,

• 37:52Speaker 03

  bad in a different way from the original, uh, team leader we had.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  And I was beginning to think that, uh, RT New York was a bad luck team, uh, at this point. Uh, because, uh, he didn't train us any better than our first team leader. He was an alcoholic. He would come from training and go directly to the club and start drinking. And that was his practice every day. Uh, and, uh,

• 38:31Speaker 03

  We had, the first operation with him was a very simple operation. We were going into a very hot area, but the mission was to drop off a, a transponder into an area called Oscar Three, for, for B-52s to home in on.

• 38:56Jack Murphy?

  Beacon bombing.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  Yes. And, uh, it was, uh, basically fly in, jump off the helicopter, hide the transponder, call the helicopter, come get you and go, go back. And that was it. Uh, so the first two people off the helicopter, supposed to be the team leader and the radio man, which is what I was at that point. Uh, and, uh, he, uh, I lost my balance. I was, I was standing on the skid, ready to jump off the helicopter onto the ground. I lost

• 39:43Speaker 03

  my balance and got to the ground before him. And he was very upset that I got onto the ground before him. Uh, and chewed me out. And it went downhill from there.

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• 41:43Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 41:57Speaker 06

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• 42:08Speaker 05

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• 43:37Speaker 03

  We were given another mission. And he was, uh... It was an area called Tango 7, which was a very hot area.

• 43:49Speaker 03

  And, uh...

• 43:53Speaker 03

  He really disliked St. Martin and me.

• 44:00Speaker 03

  And he swore that, uh...

• 44:05Speaker 03

  We were incompetent and would get him killed. That was his point of view.

• 44:14Speaker 03

  And he would go to the club and talk about those kind of things. And he would, uh...

• 44:21Speaker 03

  You know, talk about other team leaders, give his uninformed opinion about them. And he talked about us, St. Martin and I, like dogs. And we knew about it.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  But, uh... We got this mission to Tango 7. And we're up at the, uh... The, uh... Launch site.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  And, uh... He's... He tells the launch officer... The launch officer tells him, "Get ready to go. We got a window." And he says, "I can't go. I refuse to go.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  I feel sick to my stomach."

• 45:11Speaker 03

  And, uh...

• 45:17Speaker 03

  So the launch officer radios back to the FOB. The FOB commander personally comes out and goes to confronts him. And his face is just purple with rage. And he said, are you going to take this mission or not? And the guy said, no, I don't feel good.

• 45:40Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  So he said, you're relieved. You relieved him on the spot. Turned to St. Martin and said, can you take the team on this op? And St. Martin looks at me and I nod. We agreed that we were going to take the team shorthanded and go on the op. And it was a successful operation. And this guy, from being relieved, they sent him to the security company to run guard posts and stuff like that. He was relieved for cowardice and he should have been kicked out of Special Forces.

• 46:23Jack Murphy?

  Or the Army.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  And the Army. But interestingly, because we were so classified, nobody was ever given an Article 15. Nobody was ever court martialed, even though some earned it. Include me.

• 46:45Jack Murphy?

  So did RT New York start to get back on track now that it was you two guys kind of running the show?

• 46:53Speaker 03

  That's correct. We acquired another radio man by the name of John Blau. And we started running ops. And every one of them was in a hot target area. And every one of them, we got into contact. And we ran about four ops, I would say, before we got into a...

• 47:27Speaker 03

  A very serious situation.

• 47:33Speaker 03

  And John got shot up very badly. And fortunately, we were, we were able to get out of there in a very dramatic fashion.

• 47:49Jack Murphy?

  Could you, could you expand a little bit about what happened to you guys on the ground?

• 47:54Speaker 03

  Okay, so we landed on an LZ Tango 7, New Year's Dream Valley.

• 48:06Speaker 03

  And one of the things that John did that wasn't particularly smart. Mind you, John had never been tutored by a decent team leader.

• 48:20Speaker 03

  So John would, would take an azimuth from the LZ and go straight to his target. Which was an invitation to, for the NVA to set up an ambush. Once they realized that you were on an azimuth, they could, they could find you and get ahead of you and, and set up a blocking force for you.

• 48:49Speaker 03

  Normally, within a couple of days, we would be tracked down by tracker teams.

• 49:03Speaker 03

  NVA squads typically with Laotian tribesmen trackers.

• 49:10Speaker 03

  And these were the excellent troops. These were outstanding troops. But at any rate, two days into the op, they had not yet tracked us down.

• 49:25Speaker 03

  And we came upon an area of dead bamboo. Uh, and uh, if you know anything about dead, dead bamboo, uh, particularly if it's fallen and uh, they make a god awful noise. It's impossible to get through a patch of dead bamboo, almost impossible to get through it without making a hell of a lot of noise. Uh, and uh, as cautious, as cautious as you could be. Uh, and uh,

• 50:04Speaker 03

  so we entered that area of dead bamboo, which is fairly extensive area. Probably had been killed by Agent Orange. Uh, and uh, got to the other side.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  And all of a sudden we hear shouting from the green periphery uh, inside, inside the uh, the vegetation.

• 50:31Speaker 03

  Uh, and uh, at this point,

• 50:37Speaker 03

  John being the, the second guy in, in order of uh, the file order. He saw, and the point man saw buildings.

• 50:50Speaker 03

  And they give the sign for buildings, which is basically like that.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  Uh, and I assumed that they were the typical bamboo huts kind of a thing that uh, the NVA used in the field.

• 51:04Speaker 03

  Uh, and uh, just at that point,

• 51:10Speaker 03

  uh, there was yelling in Vietnamese from inside this,

• 51:16Speaker 03

  this area.

• 51:18Speaker 03

  Uh, and uh, for some reason.

• 51:24Speaker 03

  Our translator, our interpreter, did not translate what was being said to John.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  And I found out later, after John had been all shot up and we'd gotten back to the FOB, that they were saying, "There's Americans in the dead bamboo."

• 51:46Speaker 03

  So, we got into, inside the Verge, and I was confronted by something I really didn't expect, which is really big buildings under canopy. Heavy log structure. Long buildings, a cluster of four of them. And the ground surrounding these buildings was...

• 52:22Speaker 03

  There wasn't a leaf or a twig on it. It was totally pleased up.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  And right before this cleared area where these buildings were, there was a fallen log, a fallen tree. And we assembled there, and John got this great idea that we would attack the largest building in the hopes of capturing NVA officers and documents of, you know, of importance and things like that.

• 53:03Speaker 03

  And I suggested to him that maybe we ought to bomb it first before we assaulted it with an eight-man recon team, you know?

• 53:18Speaker 03

  And he agreed with that, so he... We got in contact with our communication relay site, and they passed the word back to the FOB. At this point, it was getting near dusk. It was about an hour, a half an hour before dusk.

• 53:40Speaker 03

  And...

• 53:44Speaker 03

  The order came back from the FOB commander to

• 53:52Speaker 03

  to bomb the facility and then police up whatever we could.

• 54:00Speaker 03

  But we were so close to those buildings

• 54:04Speaker 03

  that the only thing that would penetrate the canopy would be a white phosphorus grenade.

• 54:10Speaker 03

  And if we set off a white phosphorus grenade, then the enemy would know exactly where we were.

• 54:17Speaker 03

  So

• 54:19Speaker 03

  we summoned air support, which came in the form of A1 fighter bombers.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  And attempted to adjust fire by sound.

• 54:32Speaker 03

  We tried to, you know, zero them in to where we were located by the sound of their engines. Told them to do a 90-degree turn or, you know, whatever, to get us in the vicinity so that they could then and we had hoped that they, that would be close enough where they could drop their bombs. They were, they were only carrying heavy bombs, cased, cased bombs, fragmentation bombs.

• 55:00Speaker 03

  And didn't have anything else to

• 55:05Speaker 03

  for, were loaded on those aircraft at that point.

• 55:10Speaker 03

  Well, they dropped some ordnance and it was totally way off in the, in the distance, not even close.

• 55:19Speaker 03

  So John decided, to hell with it, we're gonna go and assault that building. So we go back to where this fallen, fallen log is.

• 55:33Speaker 03

  And he devised a team into two parts. At that, we were running an eight-man team. So there were three Americans and the rest were Montyards, three Montyards. So it was, uh, St. Martin and I and two Martin yards, uh, up in the, uh, the front. And the, the, the second, uh, uh, wave was to be our radio man with the two N79 Grenadiers and a, and a, and a third Montier.

• 56:12Speaker 03

  And the Grenadiers were to bracket, uh, our, our contested area with, you know, HE, while the first wave, you know, assaulted this building.

• 56:27Speaker 03

  Uh, and just at that point, so John and I were up at the, uh, up at that log. And we both, both, uh, pulled pins on grenades.

• 56:42Speaker 03

  Uh, and getting ready to assault the building.

• 56:47Speaker 03

  Uh, and John stepped over the log and it just out at that point, out of the corner of my eye, I saw a squad of NVA infantry with their weapons at High Port,

• 57:00Speaker 03

  walking along the periphery of this cleared area, pretending that they didn't see us, but they did. And they hit us on the flank. Uh, and John, fortunately, threw his grenade and then fell back from stepping over the log. I threw my grenade and opened fire on this squad of NVA. John had been hit three times. Uh, he had been hit in the ankle. If you know anything about an AK, it has a muzzle rise as it fires. So it rises up and to, to the left because the ejection port is on the right.

• 57:43Speaker 03

  So it hit him in the ankle,

• 57:47Speaker 03

  hit him in the leg, and then sliced across his abdomen,

• 57:53Speaker 03

  which emptied his intestines. Oh, my God. To the ground.

• 57:58Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh,

• 58:03Speaker 03

  so, uh, fortunately, we were sheltered by the, uh, by the log and, or my firing and possibly the firing of the, uh, the Grenadiers had knocked out some, some of the NBA squad.

• 58:23Speaker 03

  So, uh, I had not been trained how to administer morphine, but John was in extreme pain. He was screaming and hollering, which, of course, pinpointed us.

• 58:36Speaker 03

  The, the team leader in SOG recon teams always called what was called a 1-0 kit, which had medicines, tetracycline, uh, lamodil,

• 58:52Speaker 03

  mercurochrome, all this kind of shit, and, uh, and also had the morphine syrettes in them.

• 59:00Speaker 03

  And I wasn't taught how to use the morphine syrettes.

• 59:05Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh,

• 59:10Speaker 03

  this was like my, uh, maybe my fourth operation on the ground.

• 59:18Speaker 03

  And everybody who, who went to, uh, to SOG, to SOG FOBs who were to, who were destined for recon or exploitation, exploitation force, were supposed to go through the 1-0 course at long time. And, uh, they forgot about me. So I, it might have been that I missed that course on the syrettes because I was, I never went to long time. Everybody else went for some reason. They missed me. At any rate, I tried to administer the morphine and, uh, and it wouldn't eject. Uh, and John was still carrying on and screaming shit. And I said, uh, all right, enough of this.

• 1:00:03Speaker 03

  I took his intestines. I piled him back on top of his abdomen.

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  Tucked his undershirt in.

• 1:00:14Speaker 03

  And tightened down his belt. To contain his intestines.

• 1:00:21Speaker 03

  And then. I. I got his. His rucksack and gave it to one Montier to carry, gave his weapon to another Montier to carry. And gave his web gear to another Montier to carry. And then for the remaining people, I had, you know, I tried to get them to help me.

• 1:00:43Speaker 03

  Drag. Saint Martin to. An LZ, which was the dead, the area of dead bamboo where from whence we came. And it turns out that Montiers could carry a load equivalent to that of an American any day. They, they were really.

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  Small in stature, but they could really carry a lot of weight.

• 1:01:11Speaker 03

  But their upper body strength was absolutely terrible. And they couldn't. They couldn't carry a Saint Martin. And they couldn't drag him. So I, I wound up dragging him. Back to the, to the LZ. And we were just reached the LZ. Just as my strength ran out, I mean, he outweighed me by thirty, forty pounds and it was just.

• 1:01:40Jack Murphy?

  How far, how far did you have to drag him?

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  Oh. Thirty meters, forty meters, something like that.

• 1:01:50Speaker 03

  I was dragging him by the, I couldn't. Put him in a fireman's carry because of his intestines.

• 1:01:59Speaker 03

  And. So I dragged him. And all this while, he's, he's coming in and out of consciousness and every time he's conscious, he's, you know, he's, he's screaming out pain and stuff like that. So we get in, you know. About.

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  Ten fifteen meters inside the uh the bamboo. And two of the Montyards had their street smarts about them. Uh and they went along the periphery of the dead bamboo where there was some live bamboo. And they shook the bamboo away from where St. Martin was to distract the enemy away from where St. Martin was moaning and groaning and where the rest of the team was and and attract the firing towards where the bamboo was being shaken.

• 1:03:02Speaker 03

  So we called, you know, an emergency for an emergency extraction and by now it was dusk. Uh and uh uh we had a forward air controller by the name of Don Fulton, a captain, and he had a Covey rider, which was a senior NCO, an E7, uh and who was sitting in the backseat. And we started taking fire.

• 1:03:44Speaker 03

  And so the the pilot had had four rockets on under his slung under his wings. Uh and most of them were, they all were, as a matter of fact, white phosphorus. So he did strafing runs with these rockets and fired them into the where these where the the fire, the weapons fire was coming from. And at dusk, he could now see the muzzle flashes from these weapons.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  And he estimated that we had a company closing in on us based on the amount of fire. They weren't just firing at us, they were firing up at him because he was making low passes. They ran out of rockets. So the NCO who was sitting in the back of the aircraft opened the window and was firing his M16 out the window at the enemy as they were closing. And the fire, the amount of fire that they were taking as they were doing these strafing runs was increasing, increasing. And then they said, you've got a battalion coming at you.

• 1:05:07Speaker 03

  And he had summoned, of course, air assets. And by the time they got there, it was starting to rain. And it was dark. And the first helicopter came in and they had to turn their landing lights on in order to see us and to see how close they were to the ground, to the bamboo, which made them a perfect target. And they started taking all kinds of hits.

• 1:05:46Speaker 03

  Now, we, at that point, the helicopters would not land because of the bamboo. So at that point in time, we were using an extraction rig called the Hanson rig. And what it was, was a 12 to 16 foot length of one and a half inch. One and a half inch webbing with a very stout buckle on it.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  It was used for, you know, to tie down cargo on aircraft in our pallets and stuff like that. And we found a way to use those, which, if properly donned, could basically create kind of like a basket arrangement so that you wouldn't fall out of a Hanson rig unless you actually tried. And so we used those at that point. It had replaced, something was called the McGuire rig.

• 1:07:06Speaker 03

  And the Maguire rig was simply a loop, a padded loop that you would sit on. And we lost a pilot that had been rescued because he didn't know how to use it. He thought it was like the CIA rescue where you put it under your arms. Yeah, yeah. He had to sit on it. He fell out of that. He, you know, he, uh, circulation was cut off. He just fell out of it while he was being rescued and died. But anyway. So you were supposed to, uh, rig these up and carry them on your web gear.

• 1:07:46Speaker 03

  Hooked onto your web gear with a carabiner. And, uh, mine was all hooked up. It was, you know, the webbing was, you know, set to the, my length from my shoulders down to my feet. Uh, and, uh, and it was laced through the, this very robust steel buckle. And was tied off and all that good stuff. And mine was ready to go. St. Martin had never rigged his, his, uh, his Hanson rig. So it was just a 16 foot inch belt. Oh, my God.

• 1:08:26Speaker 03

  So I gave St. Martin, uh, my stable rig and hooked him up. Uh, and when the aircraft came in, they dropped ropes, uh, and with loops in them at the bottom and at midway, uh, on, on the, on the rope. Uh, five eighths inch, uh, rappelling rope effectively. I hooked him into that and, uh, and three of the other Monty yards. Uh, maybe four. Uh, and I charged them with, you know, taking care of John.

• 1:09:09Speaker 03

  And he was still screaming bloody murder and stuff like that. And that helicopter took off. And that's when I found out that John's, that I, I didn't have time enough to rig the Hanson rig to my dimensions. So I tied it into a Swiss seat.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  Never do that, by the way, if you can avoid it. Uh, and, uh, and when the second ship came in, again, with landing lights on and taking fire, uh, uh, our radio man and the remaining Montneyard hooked on, and I hooked up the radio to another string. Uh, and, uh, as the helicopter, uh, gained altitude, we started taking anti-aircraft fire from 23 Mike Mike and 37 Mike Mike, uh, anti-aircraft fire, and it was starting to rain like hell.

• 1:10:17Speaker 03

  Uh, and we saw the detonations of the, uh, of the anti-aircraft artillery below us as we were, um, and the, uh, so we were flying back to our launch site over all this rugged, uh, rainforest and mountains, and I started feeling a lot of pain from the, uh, from the webbing, which had bound up, uh, and was really slicing into my groin area.

• 1:10:55Speaker 03

  Uh, and at the same time that was going on, I was dealing with that, the radio, Pric 77, was flying out like a pendulum and coming back and smacking me repeatedly. So I managed to grab the radio, got a hold of the handset, and begged the pilot to set us down so that I could, because I was in pain, and I was afraid that my circulation would be cut off and that I would fall out of the harness. He refused to do that.

• 1:11:38Speaker 03

  And we flew through a torrential rainstorm. Uh, at the, uh, the op, you know, the, the cruising speed for the UH1D, which is probably around 120 miles an hour, something like that. So the cop, so that was a, you know, kind of a compliment, a complimentary effect. The rain hitting you at, at that speed while you're flying at, at, uh, at 120 miles an hour. And, uh, the, the rain was so heavy and cloud cover was so dense

• 1:12:21Speaker 03

  that St. Martin's helicopter entirely missed the, uh, the launch site and flew all the way to Kon Tum Airfield.

• 1:12:29Jack Murphy?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:12:31Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh, they landed and, and got St. Martin loaded up on the helicopter. Uh, they had a, a chase medic with him and they got him to the Pleiku Hospital. And they had to put an enormous amount of blood into him just to save his life. And they have that, you know, of course, when they got him stable, they medevac him, uh, first to, uh, uh, Okinawa and then to the States. That round that hit, hit his thigh shattered, uh, his thigh bone. His ankle was shattered and of course, you know, his intestines, uh, this, you can, you can imagine.

• 1:13:13Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh, so my helicopter was able to see, uh, the, uh, the launch site airfield airstrip. Because there was a Jeep there that had its headlights on illuminating the airstrip for them. So he came, comes in, uh, in the usual flight pattern. And

• 1:13:49Speaker 03

  He came in too low and I, I hit the asphalt

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  pretty hard.

• 1:14:01Speaker 03

  And

• 1:14:04Speaker 03

  then he started dragging me all the way down the airstrip towards where the launch site was. And I had this, I looked like a comet because something metal on, on the, my backpack

• 1:14:20Speaker 03

  uh was dragging on the concrete and there's a shower of sparks all around me. And there I was laying on my back while this was going on, I'm looking up at the helicopter and there's the crew chief looking out, looking down at me. And I'm going, you know, like,

• 1:14:38Speaker 03

  you know,

• 1:14:42Speaker 03

  what, what, you know, what are you gonna do about this? Kind of a, I'm sure he couldn't see my expression, but uh finally, uh, he was able to communicate with the pilot and the, the pilot

• 1:14:57Speaker 03

  gained altitude

• 1:15:00Speaker 03

  uh to get me up off the asphalt

• 1:15:04Speaker 03

  uh close to where the launch site was and then dropped me like a sack of potatoes uh again uh on the asphalt. Well, it turns out that this was the new commander of the fifty seventh, fifty seventh uh helicopter company.

• 1:15:25Speaker 03

  And this was his cherry flight.

• 1:15:31Speaker 03

  Oh, oh, so he was a, he was a major.

• 1:15:36Speaker 03

  Uh, and uh, he was a

• 1:15:41Speaker 03

  Every time you you take over a helicopter company, you you want to take at least one one flight with them, and particularly since this was a deep penetration operation, he'd never been on one before. So this was this was his cherry flight for for Saad. And he comes out of the helicopter, runs over to me and begs my forgiveness. And he said he he'd lost his between, you know, night vision, the glare of the headlights on the Jeep. And

• 1:16:26Speaker 03

  he had lost the It's like depth perception. Depth perception, thank you very much. He lost depth perception. And it was just so he apologized all over the place. And I said, don't worry about it. I'm happy to be here, kind of a thing. We were transported back to to the FOB. And we were met by the new commander of recon company by the name of Goulay, great guy.

• 1:17:09Speaker 03

  And the first sergeant, which I think it was Donnie at that point. And the the tradition for us was you come off an op and you would be taken to the mess hall and fed a steak dinner. So they had to wake up the had to wake up the mess sergeant to cook us some steak.

• 1:17:34Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:17:49Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:18:00Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:18:05Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:18:11Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:18:31Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 1:18:58Speaker 08

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• 1:19:31Speaker 03

  And me, I was sitting at the table with the commander and the first sergeant, and John Blau was sitting with me. And they wanted an account of what had happened.

• 1:19:44Speaker 03

  And I gave them, you know, the story. And then...

• 1:19:52Speaker 03

  It it kind of hit me how ridiculous this whole thing was about an eight man recon team attacking an NVA installation. And I started laughing like crazy. And at some point, Bilal saw the humor in it too, and he started laughing. But I caught a strange look between the commander and the first sergeant that I must must have gone off my rocker. But at that point, then I became the the team leader of RT New York.

• 1:20:31Jack Murphy?

  Did they finally send you to one zero school?

• 1:20:33Speaker 03

  Never.

• 1:20:35Jack Murphy?

  Really?

• 1:20:36Speaker 03

  It was, I was into my, I guess, a year and a half point. I had basically a full year as a one zero. And the first sergeant said, you know, I've been looking at your your record. Did you you went to one zero school, didn't you? I said, no. He said, Jesus Christ, he couldn't believe it. And I says, I'm not going now, you know? And I have my own views about the one zero course.

• 1:21:17Speaker 03

  I mean, one zero course was taught by former team leaders. But they wound up homesteading. And as the tactical situation on the ground changed, they didn't. And they so what you got out of the one zero course was valuable, mind you. But it was, in my view, a basic special reconnaissance course. Where you got your advanced training was at the hands of a multi-tour team leader.

• 1:21:57Jack Murphy?

  And what was it like for you running the team from then on out?

• 1:22:07Speaker 03

  It was interesting.

• 1:22:12Speaker 03

  From the get-go, the Montyards on the team had really loved St. Martin. He really could relate to them.

• 1:22:24Speaker 03

  They adored him, his physical presence, you know, his muscles and, you know, always had a sense of humor about him. And the Montyards absolutely loved him. And because he was so statuesque,

• 1:22:43Speaker 03

  they thought that he was, you know, invulnerable.

• 1:22:50Speaker 03

  And then I take over the team. And I don't, initially, I don't enjoy the same relationship.

• 1:23:04Speaker 03

  And I was more, I loved the Montyards and they, and we got along great, but not in the same sense, not as close as St. Martin was with them. And I was more directive in nature. And

• 1:23:26Speaker 03

  the first mission that we had

• 1:23:32Speaker 03

  was

• 1:23:37Speaker 03

  kind of raised their level of concern about me.

• 1:23:47Speaker 03

  So that first mission was, at this, at this point,

• 1:23:53Speaker 03

  the first sergeant was a guy by the name of Pappy Greenwood,

• 1:23:58Speaker 03

  a master sergeant, good guy. He had been in Provincial Reconnaissance Unit under,

• 1:24:06Speaker 03

  associated with

• 1:24:09Speaker 03

  Phoenix program.

• 1:24:11Jack Murphy?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:11Speaker 03

  And he came to SOG. Uh, and was the first sergeant. And, uh,

• 1:24:21Speaker 03

  he, uh, he said, we've got a mission for you.

• 1:24:26Speaker 03

  Right at that point, I was on bright light duty. And he called me back from bright light and said, we've got a mission for you. That's the way it went. Uh, he said, there's going to be a B-52 strike along, uh, the MSR.

• 1:24:42Speaker 03

  And, uh, we're going to send you in on, uh, a, uh, bomb damage assessment, BDA.

• 1:24:53Speaker 03

  And he said, you've never been on a BDA before, so, uh, I'll, I'll tell you what it, what, what typically happens.

• 1:25:02Speaker 03

  You land. Uh, it's tough getting through, uh, all the tangle of trees that have been tossed up by the B-52 strikes.

• 1:25:16Speaker 03

  Uh, you wind up spending, nighting over and then commencing, uh, your reconnaissance, uh, the following day.

• 1:25:27Speaker 03

  And he says, every time,

• 1:25:31Speaker 03

  uh, the teams get run, run out of the, uh, target area before they can accomplish the mission. Because

• 1:25:40Speaker 03

  the, the North Marines have figured out where you are and they're waiting for you. And they know that after every B, after every B-52 strike, a BDA would follow. So they were always waiting for us on a BDA.

• 1:25:56Speaker 03

  So, uh, I said, okay, well, why don't we do it this way? Uh, why don't you just land me on the beaten zone?

• 1:26:07Speaker 03

  I'll conduct my recon right then and there. And then

• 1:26:14Speaker 03

  I'll get extracted before nightfall.

• 1:26:19Speaker 03

  Rather than landing outside the beaten zone, which was the usual protocol, land me right there. And he said, he was really shocked at that suggestion. And he said, are you sure you want to do it that way? And I said, yes. And he said, all right, it's your call.

• 1:26:39Speaker 03

  Uh, and so we were inserted by a CH-34 helicopter. Uh, and

• 1:26:53Speaker 03

  landed down in the stream valley that was at the foot of this ridge. And the MSR

• 1:27:05Speaker 03

  followed along at the base, basically at the base of this ridge

• 1:27:11Speaker 03

  uh, towards the tri-border area. And it was an all, it was an all-weather road and was vital to the enemy.

• 1:27:23Speaker 03

  Uh, so we landed there and we scaled up, uh, the side of this, this ridge to get on top of the road.

• 1:27:31Speaker 03

  And I started taking pictures. And there was bunkers along the side of the road for North Vietnamese to take shelter from air attack and whatnot.

• 1:27:43Speaker 03

  We walked a kilometer in the open along the road after the B-52 strike had cleaned out all the vegetation. So anybody who was on a ridge of, on the other side of the beaten area, of the other side of the, uh, the stream valley could have seen us very easily. But they, but, uh, nothing happened untoward. And we got to a to a point in the road which kind of, uh, formed a loop around uh, a finger of this ridge.

• 1:28:22Speaker 03

  And I said, and my Monty yards were getting extremely nervous.

• 1:28:28Speaker 03

  And my point man kept on drifting back so that I

• 1:28:34Speaker 03

  so that I got the message that he didn't want to go any further.

• 1:28:39Speaker 03

  And so I decided that we would climb this ridge and get to the top of the to the ridge. And get some more perspective. Which is what we did and we got up to the top of the ridge.

• 1:28:57Speaker 03

  And there was this bomb crater from a 500 pound bomb right where that finger was.

• 1:29:07Speaker 03

  And some trees had been knocked out knocked off. Around there, but this bomb crater, we looked at the bottom bomb crater and

• 1:29:20Speaker 03

  there was a tunnel.

• 1:29:23Speaker 03

  It had breached the tunnel atop of a tunnel.

• 1:29:29Speaker 03

  And that gets me remind me to come back to this, the this tunnel issue. Because it gets back to the the intelligence issue that I mentioned earlier on the conversation. So.

• 1:29:52Speaker 03

  So I say to my, one of my grenadiers.

• 1:29:57Speaker 03

  That I wanted him to go down into the tunnel.

• 1:30:01Speaker 03

  Because he was not only armed with a with a M79 grenade launcher, but he also had was carrying a 45 pistol.

• 1:30:11Speaker 03

  And I had a flashlight for him. And he refuses.

• 1:30:17Speaker 03

  So I decide I'll do it. I I take his 45 and I go down into to the bottom of the crater and go into the into this.

• 1:30:29Speaker 03

  This tunnel has been exposed.

• 1:30:32Speaker 03

  And I'm there with my flashlight and my 45 and I'm crawling in through the around in this tunnel. And come to a point where there'd been a cave in.

• 1:30:45Speaker 03

  And I couldn't go any further. So I was contemplating what I was going to do next. Just then I get a shout.

• 1:30:54Speaker 03

  From my assistant team leader saying, "NVA."

• 1:31:00Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh,

• 1:31:04Speaker 03

  so I, I have, I can't turn around, so I wind up scooting back until I, I, I get, even with the opening.

• 1:31:13Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh, I, I get a hand up. And we all get into the bomb crater and, uh, they tell me where they see these, see the NVA. The NVA had crossed. They say it was an NVA squad that had crossed the beaten zone for the B-52 strike. It was now on our side of the road.

• 1:31:37Speaker 03

  And on the ridge where we were, but at some distance.

• 1:31:44Speaker 03

  So I said, "All right, that's enough. I've gotten all the photos that I, that I need. I've taken other photos from, uh, this elevation." Uh, not a single bomb from the B-52 strike, strike has, had, had hit the road. Not, not a single one.

• 1:32:04Speaker 03

  Uh, which was disappointing to me.

• 1:32:08Speaker 03

  So, uh, I call for an extraction.

• 1:32:12Speaker 03

  And, uh, they send, uh, again, the CH-34 to pick us up. And the blade length was such that they could not,

• 1:32:22Speaker 03

  uh, land or even get close to this finger that was on the ridge.

• 1:32:32Speaker 03

  So the forward air controller directed us to another open area that was further along the ridge.

• 1:32:40Speaker 03

  Uh, that open area was separated from my open area.

• 1:32:47Speaker 03

  By a finger of, you know, a, an ismus of vegetation. Now, I had tried to knock down a tree with a claymore. And all it did was knock off the bark from the tree. So that wasn't a solution. So I tell the point man, who was big fan of John St. Martin. His name was Jerome. And he had a brother on the team. He was one of my N79 guys. I said, I point him and I said, we go there, LZ over there.

• 1:33:26Speaker 03

  And as soon as we get inside the, the Green Verge, he takes off running in a panic, trying to get to the LZ to get the hell out of there. And I then become the point man. And I'm really pissed off. Uh, and, you know, we get, we get through this, this green patch and we wind up where the, the CH34 had enough room to pick us up.

• 1:34:04Speaker 03

  And my interpreter taps me on the shoulder and says, one of the Montyards says there's NVA. They were in an ambush. And an ambush position that we just walked right past them. And they were pointing their weapons at us. And the Montyard pretended as though he didn't see them because he was afraid that if he acknowledged them

• 1:34:42Speaker 03

  and started a firefight, that they had to drop on us and would wipe us out. The reason why those NVA did not open up their ambush on us was because we had Cobra, Cobra aircraft flying overhead. And they were, and they had just suffered a B-52 strike. So they were, they were not, they didn't want to invite a fight.

• 1:35:12Speaker 03

  Well, that pissed me off because it could have gone all wrong. Uh, he should have opened fire on them, uh, and, uh,

• 1:35:23Speaker 03

  because the, if they had been able to initiate the, uh, the ambush without us initiating first,

• 1:35:31Speaker 03

  uh, it would be a, you know, a gunfight at the sixth, you know, the OK Corral kind of a situation. Uh, better to initiate the gunfight than to, you know, let them have, uh, have first shot. That was my view. Anyway, got back to the, uh, to the FOB and I was gonna fire the, uh, the point man and his, and his brother. Uh, just the point man, actually.

• 1:36:03Speaker 03

  He beat me to it. He quit and his brother went with him.

• 1:36:08Speaker 03

  And that's what was my first inkling that my team was a little concerned about my acceptance of risk, you know, and, uh,

• 1:36:20Speaker 03

  but, uh, I had always tried to measure the risk against,

• 1:36:27Speaker 03

  uh,

• 1:36:29Speaker 03

  opportunity.

• 1:36:32Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh,

• 1:36:37Speaker 03

  and weigh the, uh, the odds kind of a thing based on experience. So, to circle back to this intelligence issue.

• 1:36:46Jack Murphy?

  Yes.

• 1:36:47Speaker 03

  So my next operation was in the same vicinity.

• 1:36:52Speaker 03

  Uh, and I'm not gonna talk about that operation right now unless you ask me to, but.

• 1:37:02Speaker 03

  Suffice to say that Operation with St. Martin, I discovered a major, what apparently was not a logistics facility, but a major headquarters. These log structures. A regimental headquarters would be constructed with bamboo. A major headquarters would be constructed with log, semi-permanent kind of a thing. I reasoned that out. When we came back from an op, we would go to the S2 to get a debriefing. And we described these structures.

• 1:37:41Speaker 03

  We described how well-kept this whole area was and how it was sheltered by the terrain and how it was sheltered by the canopy. And gave them all, everything that I could divine from the operation. And they never went back in. S2 or the intel office at SOG could not make the connection

• 1:38:25Speaker 03

  that this was more than just something out in the woods, like a logistics. And St. Martin hadn't taken a photo, which he should have done, definitely should have done. That would have validated everything we were saying about it. But anyway, in the second mission, I find an underground tunnel.

• 1:38:56Speaker 03

  Now, you'd report an underground tunnel to headquarters that's back in Vietnam, and that's fairly commonplace. That was commonplace in Vietnam. But the North Vietnamese owned the entire length of the Ho Chi Minh Trail. They had no need to build tunnels, go to that effort. What was there in that tunnel that was required such care?

• 1:39:30Speaker 03

  So it was something spectacular. To me, it was not so spectacular to an intel analyst back at SOG headquarters, who had never been on the ground, who did not connect the dots, that this was an anomaly that you did not see in Laos, but did see in South Vietnam. The third mission was in the same area, again Tango 7, and I discovered on one side of a river, a north-south river, a set of high-speed trails heading towards Cambodia. On the other

• 1:40:12Speaker 03

  side of that river, I discovered a hidden road.

• 1:40:22Speaker 03

  So when I get back from the operation, again, I get debriefed, and I tell them this kind of stuff, and no one seems to connect the dots, because this is another route from the MSR into Cambodia, and no one is reconning that area to find out where it leads.

• 1:40:53Speaker 03

  You know, wooden campments lie along that river, along those trails and roads and all that other kind of stuff. And so there was no follow-up to the kinds of things that we discovered, which was appalling because what we were, we were recon, right? We were supposed to discover this kind of stuff, and then we expected some sort of follow-up, some sort of action, when it was discovered, and it wasn't happening.

• 1:41:24Jack Murphy?

  What do you think led to that analytical failure on the S2 side?

• 1:41:28Speaker 03

  Some of the, so, the way I reasoned that this out subsequently was, and I'll make an analogy here. So during the, the hunt for Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, we had special operators who were teamed with CIA analysts.

• 1:42:07Speaker 03

  Because whoever the leadership was at that point in time in the CIA realized that the analysts didn't know what they were looking at, but the operators did. So if something was an anomaly, the analysts wouldn't know if it's an anomaly unless the operator told them. He said, "Oh, this is something unusual. This is something that bears, you know, a second look," et cetera, et cetera.

• 1:42:47Speaker 03

  An example would be the Russians and probably the Chinese, but certainly, so the Soviets and the Russians in Ukraine.

• 1:43:10Speaker 03

  Would use penal battalions, the Russians during World War. These were criminals, or deserters, or slackers, who refused to fight. And they were sent to penal battalions. Penal battalions were used as, they were suicide units. They were, they were the, the pointy end of the spear, to draw fire. And they were sent, they were the first ones sent against, you know, the, the allied units. And they got slaughtered.

• 1:43:53Speaker 03

  And when they were encamped, they were encamped, basically in a, in an enclosure. Logs, like a fort, a fort. Barbed wire on top of the, you know, the logs. But the guards were on the outside looking in. So if, if you saw that, you might think, oh, the guards are looking out. But no, the guards, if the towers were on the outside, they were protected by the, by the wall, they were looking inward.

• 1:44:35Speaker 03

  And then you would say, oh, all these soldiers that are inside this enclosure, none of them are carrying weapons. Okay. So unless you told an analyst what to look for, not carrying weapons, morale looks low, their, their comportment is bad, and they're being guarded from the outside, you wouldn't know that they're a penal battalion. So that's the same kind of thing, that I think is, is a problem with all intelligence analysts, unless they are informed by somebody who has the tactical wisdom. Wisdom is training plus experience. Okay?

• 1:45:16Speaker 03

  And so, that's, I chalk that up to them, and, what do you call it? Intellectual incuriosity.

• 1:45:29Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:31Jack Murphy?

  Failure of the imagination.

• 1:45:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, just staring at photos all day, staring at maps all day.

• 1:45:42Speaker 03

  You probably don't get it. So, but anyway, that's what I chalked it up to be.

• 1:45:51Speaker 03

  And I found out other things in my experience.

• 1:45:57Speaker 03

  So this disease went all the way up to J2 at MACV.

• 1:46:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:05Speaker 03

  And example was Assad team discovered tank tracks near the, across the border from the Longvee A Camp in Ichor. Reported it back.

• 1:46:27Speaker 03

  They bring the team leader down to MACV headquarters.

• 1:46:32Speaker 03

  And he explains what he's seen and he's got photographs of the tracks.

• 1:46:37Speaker 03

  And the staff officer in charge of J2 was a major general.

• 1:46:45Speaker 03

  And he says, "Not possible. There are no tanks. The Norfithmies don't have any tanks. And the Norfithmies could never get tanks down into, through these mountains." That's what, that was his opinion. And the, I guess then it was Westmoreland, and Westmoreland listened to him. And then they attacked Longvee.

• 1:47:08Jack Murphy?

  Longvee got overrun, yeah.

• 1:47:12Speaker 03

  The funny part about this story was, he did it again.

• 1:47:17Speaker 03

  Ben Het, down in the Tri-Power area, got attacked by tanks, again, special forces. SOG teams had discovered tracks. On both occasions, this major general says, "Those are caterpillar tracks from earthmoving equipment."

• 1:47:36Speaker 03

  And they attacked Ben Het. Of course, they got wiped out.

• 1:47:42Speaker 03

  But they it was a surprise to Benhead that they were being attacked by tanks and they they actually fired they knocked out one of our M forty seven so M forty eight tanks and and killed and wounded so but so it's the same major generals is not possible. And this time it's I don't know if it's still Westmoreland or if Abrams had taken charge at that point but.

• 1:48:12Jack Murphy?

  So take us through I mean the kind of the the tail end of Vietnam for you. Did you have a break in service or did you reenlist? What was sort of the next step in your army career?

• 1:48:26Speaker 03

  Well, I had originally thought that I that I might get out of the army and go back to college. That was my initial intent. But I changed my mind. I really enjoyed the military and my experience with SOG was all positive. I never got wounded. Only two guys on my team got wounded other than Saint Martin. And that was a remarkable this is a by the

• 1:49:07Speaker 03

  way comment. It was that was a remarkable feat because for two years SOG had our CCC FOB two had in excess of one hundred percent casualties.

• 1:49:19Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:20Speaker 03

  And not me and one American in one yard got wounded for the entire eighteen months plus that I was a team leader.

• 1:49:39Jack Murphy?

  Uh.

• 1:49:40Speaker 03

  So all positive and I really enjoyed my special forces experience to that point. And then wound up, you know, reenlisting and I became an instructor at the special at the special forces reconnaissance course at Camp McCall. Now, as I've mentioned in the book.

• 1:50:13Speaker 03

  At long time, all the POI, primary instruction and lesson plans were all destroyed, gone forever. As the United States started to draw down, they still had the necessity, SOG was still going on for several months, and they still needed the new folks who were due to come to the FOBs. Now, at that point, there was two FOBs, I guess, to go through that training. So they had begun this course at Camp McCall.

• 1:50:55Speaker 03

  So I was there briefly, but the position actually called for an 11th Foxtrot, and I was not an 11th Foxtrot yet. So they sent me off to Owen High School. And by the time I got back, they had discontinued the course. And again, they destroyed all the lesson plans of POI. So one of my challenges then was to kind of not only come up with the

• 1:51:39Speaker 03

  the old, you know, the tactics, techniques and procedures, but also make them relevant to today.

• 1:51:46Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:51:47Speaker 03

  And that was why I wrote the first book.

• 1:51:49Jack Murphy?

  Right. And what job did they give you since the reconnaissance school was shut down?

• 1:51:55Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:52:10Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:52:21Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:52:27Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:52:33Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:52:53Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 1:53:20Speaker 09

  Cash Flow Crunch. OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:53:51Speaker 03

  I went to the seventh special forces group and I was just a, you know, a team member. And at that point, Special Forces was under a lot of pressure. They had already deactivated the sixth special forces group. They were working on the third and the seventh special forces groups to deactivate them. Fortunately, that didn't happen.

• 1:54:19Speaker 03

  But I saw the handwriting on the wall and I decided, well, I might as well go to OCS. Become an officer. Which is what I did. And when I got into OCS. Uh, I mean, my experience at the 7th Special Forces Group was, uh, my sergeant major loved me and he sent me to, you know, courses. I was number one in the NCO Academy, distinguished undergrad, that kind of stuff. Uh, he thought I was, I walked on water. He sent me to Halo School, which at that point, uh, was, going to that was an exception rather than the routine as it is now.

• 1:55:02Speaker 03

  As a reward, uh, for my performance. Uh, and, uh,

• 1:55:10Speaker 03

  so I, I went to OCS and in my platoon, there was a, one of my fellow candidates was an EOD guy.

• 1:55:19Speaker 03

  And he said, you know, you ought to consider going into EOD because as a second lieutenant, you get to command. Uh, which is probably the only occasion where, uh, a second lieutenant would command a unit, actually. Lead a unit, yes, but command, no. So the, uh, so that, and he said, and all, you, you learn some new stuff and, uh,

• 1:55:50Speaker 03

  uh, and it's an actual mission and, and all that good stuff. And that appealed to me and I reasoned that if I, uh,

• 1:56:01Speaker 03

  if another war came along, I could do a branch transfer and go back to Special Forces.

• 1:56:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:09Speaker 03

  And so that was my decision. I went into ordnance and commanded a EOD detachment. Then I had subsequent, I was in Berlin Brigade as the EOD officer for the American Sector and had a couple of other hats I wore as well. Great assignment, accomplished a great deal, and then commanded a company back in, in West Germany, which was a very challenging assignment, and I did very well there. So my experience to that point was that I, I

• 1:56:50Speaker 03

  really enjoyed my military experience. And so that answers your question, I guess.

• 1:57:00Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Did you ever work with the Green Light program?

• 1:57:07Speaker 03

  Interestingly, when the, the, not the Green Light, but Delta, tried to rescue the embassy employees from Iraq.

• 1:57:28Jack Murphy?

  Yup.

• 1:57:32Speaker 03

  The, I was still in, at SOG, and I knew a number of these, so they decided that they weren't going to use SOG for that raid because they were convinced that SOG had been penetrated.

• 1:57:51Jack Murphy?

  Wait, wait, are you talking about the Sun-Tight raid?

• 1:57:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:57:55Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, okay, I'm tracking.

• 1:57:57Speaker 03

  Okay. So by then, I knew that we were, we had been penetrated. And so I didn't hold a grudge, but I knew a number of those guys who went in on that operation who were former SOG. And I also knew that others who were in Blue Light were former SOG.

• 1:58:21Jack Murphy?

  Yup.

• 1:58:22Speaker 03

  And so, when I was still in

• 1:58:35Speaker 03

  The EOD detachment. I got a call from my boss. And he said that Delta was looking for a special forces qualified EOD officer. Uh, and uh, the commander of Delta at that point was Charlie Beckwith. Uh, and uh, I knew something about Charlie Beckwith. There was a number of guys who were in SOG who left Delta because of Charlie Beckwith. They couldn't tolerate him.

• 1:59:12Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:13Speaker 03

  Uh, and there were other things about Charlie Beckwith that I had learned as well. Uh, and uh, among them was he didn't take advice. Uh, he thought he knew everything. And I knew that that was a prescription for uh, that was not.

• 1:59:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:39Speaker 03

  That was not a guy that you wanted as your commander. And I did, I declined that position. And it, and that was a good thing because then I went on to the advanced course and my subsequent, subsequently went to, to Berlin, which was a great assignment. Great assignment.

• 1:59:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, uh, all the cloak and dagger going on there at the time.

• 2:00:02Speaker 03

  What, in Berlin?

• 2:00:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:05Speaker 03

  Well, I worked with uh, with uh, uh, Dead A. Uh, they stored their ammunition with us, with me, uh, and I had ammunition depots within the city. Uh, and uh, they had some special ammunition, as you can imagine, that had been given to them by the agency. Uh, and so I went over shelf life and uh, they'd come to me for disposal of it, stuff like that. I visited them on a couple of occasions.

• 2:00:42Jack Murphy?

  Uh. Yeah, like subsonic ammo and stuff like that.

• 2:00:47Speaker 03

  Well, here's, this is kind of interesting. So one, uh, not subsonic, I didn't see any subsonic.

• 2:00:55Speaker 03

  They had uh uh incendiary, delay incendiary devices.

• 2:01:03Jack Murphy?

  Interesting.

• 2:01:05Speaker 03

  But the most interesting thing was.

• 2:01:10Speaker 03

  They came to me with a a can of forty five ammo.

• 2:01:19Speaker 03

  Special ammo.

• 2:01:22Speaker 03

  With explosive warheads.

• 2:01:28Speaker 03

  And uh so there was uh fulminated mercury inside, inside the head of the the forty five caliber pistol round.

• 2:01:42Speaker 03

  So uh that was, that was kind of interesting.

• 2:01:46Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, that's wild.

• 2:01:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:50Jack Murphy?

  Um uh and tell us about, you know, kind of retirement, how you retired from the military and what you did in civilian life.

• 2:02:00Speaker 03

  Well, uh on the uh.

• 2:02:07Speaker 03

  To kind of finish off my, my career story, uh I worked with special forces again when I was uh at Yuma Proving Ground where I was a test manager and because of my clearance and my background, I was given any of the projects associated with, with special forces. So they had special munitions requirements and I was the project engineer on those kinds of things.

• 2:02:35Speaker 03

  I was also given uh some really high tech uh projects to handle. Smart, intelligent, brilliant munitions. Uh semi autonomous munitions. Uh and directed energy weapons.

• 2:02:56Speaker 03

  And I thought, you know, this is, you know, this is really great. It's another great assignment for me.

• 2:03:01Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:01Speaker 03

  I didn't expect it to be because frankly, Yuma Proving Ground is the asshole of the world. But it was, it was a good, really good experience. I got to do some interesting, really stuff. And I worked with special forces in developing some of the smart, intelligent, brilliant munitions and, and some of the booby trap devices that are still in, in their inventory. They also had ammunition developed specifically for them.

• 2:03:35Speaker 03

  What was the name of it?

• 2:03:36Jack Murphy?

  Uh, there's a pursuit deterrent mine.

• 2:03:39Speaker 03

  Pursuit, pursuit deterrent munition. Yes. I was the project engineer for that.

• 2:03:44Jack Murphy?

  Oh, no kidding. Yeah, those are still around.

• 2:03:48Speaker 03

  Well, I'm, you know, so, uh,

• 2:03:53Speaker 03

  yes, I was the project engineer for, for that munition.

• 2:03:59Speaker 03

  And could, wished that I could have had one of those, you know, some of those when I was in SOG.

• 2:04:05Jack Murphy?

  Hell, yeah. Yeah.

• 2:04:10Speaker 03

  So I, and also did some, some work for the agency. Where, and it was kind of a curious event.

• 2:04:24Speaker 03

  At this point, I was a major.

• 2:04:28Speaker 03

  Uh, and my boss came in to my office and said, he was really flustered.

• 2:04:39Speaker 03

  And he said, we've got a problem. Uh, we need you in the conference room.

• 2:04:45Speaker 03

  We have some folks from the agency here who think they're supposed to be here to run a test and no one knows about it.

• 2:04:55Speaker 03

  You know, so I go into the conference room.

• 2:04:59Speaker 03

  Uh, I sit down and there's

• 2:05:04Speaker 03

  five guys from the agency.

• 2:05:08Speaker 03

  And my boss and my boss's boss.

• 2:05:12Speaker 03

  Uh, and they described the problem.

• 2:05:16Speaker 03

  And, uh,

• 2:05:20Speaker 03

  And they asked me if I could, if I could handle this because it had been a cock up. They had, they had come to the, months prior. Uh, and went to the wrong office to coordinate the test. Uh, and, and so then they show up with the, with the expectation that it was, the test would be, it kicked off on time and, and no one knew in the test director at all. Uh, at any rate, so I said, yeah, I can do this. And I looked across the table, I looked around the table and then across the table for me was a guy from CCC.

• 2:06:06Speaker 03

  Uh, by the name of Joe Walker. Oh, yeah. Joe Walker was probably the best team leader I'd ever encountered, uh, and very well respected. Formerly with Delta before he came to CCC and then, uh, he had, uh, and

• 2:06:28Speaker 03

  the ammunition that they were testing was FART ammunition. And it was the 122 millimeter rocket.

• 2:06:37Speaker 03

  And when Joe Walker was at SOG, he had gone to some of these ammunition holding areas for FART munitions. To police up stuff that he, he might be able to use. And he saw all these stacks of 122 millimeter rockets. And he started thinking about how he might be able to use those.

• 2:07:03Speaker 03

  Time passes, he's in the agency, he has an opportunity to use them.

• 2:07:09Speaker 03

  Uh, but he had, they don't have launchers. They have to figure out how to, how to use them.

• 2:07:16Speaker 03

  Uh, in a, a innovative way. Uh, so.

• 2:07:32Speaker 03

  They had to create launchers out of PVC pipe.

• 2:07:38Speaker 03

  And then they had, then the, those were propped up by angle iron, well, tied together or welded together in a cross crucifix, you know, like that. And then their handler, their liaison was a guy who had developed a

• 2:08:04Speaker 03

  a potted

• 2:08:10Speaker 03

  a timing device.

• 2:08:16Speaker 03

  So they wanted to test these and get, figure out elevation, deflection, and range characteristics firing from this jury-rigged system. And they also wanted to test a fuse that was used that they thought might work. They didn't have enough fuses for all the 122s that they had.

• 2:08:44Speaker 03

  And they wanted to test a different fuse to see if that would work, and it didn't.

• 2:08:50Speaker 03

  And so they had a fairly significant inventory of 122s that were restored here in the United States

• 2:08:59Speaker 03

  in bunkers on

• 2:09:07Speaker 03

  installation storage, ammunition storage areas.

• 2:09:13Speaker 03

  So, so that was my purpose is to try, and Joe tried to recruit me into the agency.

• 2:09:23Speaker 03

  But I said, I don't have my 20 years in yet. So I don't want to forego my military retirement. And then

• 2:09:39Speaker 03

  so I declined the opportunity, but said, check with me later, you know, after I hit my 20. I didn't know how to get in contact with him, actually.

• 2:09:53Speaker 03

  But

• 2:09:57Speaker 03

  Years later, I discovered that he's working out at Harvey Point. Now, he had been operational. So this thing with the 122s, that is a legendary op that has never spoken about, I guess, among but Joe Walker became a legend. And at Harvey Point, his picture is all along the hallways in the main building at Harvey Point.

• 2:10:25Jack Murphy?

  So they used those for some deniable operation somewhere in the world?

• 2:10:28Speaker 03

  Yes. And it was astounding what it did. About 100.

• 2:10:40Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 2:10:43Speaker 03

  Rockets fired in, on timers. And basically wiped out an enemy installation with them. So you got a lot of creds for that. I ran into him later and paid a number of visits as a contractor because I had some things that I thought the agency might use. And I had, I basically had a contract working with them. A classified contract. You know what MAZENT is?

• 2:11:25Jack Murphy?

  Signals and Measuring Intelligence?

• 2:11:28Speaker 03

  Correct. So we had a program doing that for them. So like the people that work for me in my division, my corporate division, were doing that kind of stuff. Out in Nevada and then, you know, so it was at Harvey Point again. And so I met up with him a couple of times. And he was running, he had had a, while he was still operational, he had this really serious accident.

• 2:12:09Speaker 03

  He was on a railroad platform, fell off backwards and broke his back. And that was it. So they hired him at Harvey Point to be an instructor.

• 2:12:22Speaker 03

  And then when he reached retirement there,

• 2:12:29Speaker 03

  at the agency, they hired him back as a contractor to do the same thing he had been doing as an agency employee. And he passed away from Parkinson's a couple of years ago.

• 2:12:48Speaker 03

  And I helped get him recognized as a distinguished member of the Special Forces Regiment before he passed.

• 2:13:04Jack Murphy?

  Oh, that's great.

• 2:13:09Jack Murphy?

  And do you want to talk a little bit about your book?

• 2:13:13Speaker 03

  Oh, you asked me about my corporate career. I'm sorry, I failed to tell you. So out of the Pentagon, which was my worst, my worst assignment in my career.

• 2:13:25Speaker 03

  I absolutely hated it.

• 2:13:28Speaker 03

  And then the day after I retired, I went to work for a contractor. And I was working in the Joint Program Office for Biological Defense.

• 2:13:42Speaker 03

  And President Clinton had read a book about Ebola. And started asking questions about it from his science advisor and was convinced that

• 2:13:59Speaker 03

  we needed to up our game in biological defense. And so they started up this office. And I was like very, very early into that program and was there for four or five years or so. And during that timeframe, I went from, you know, a research analyst all the way up to a senior vice president within my firm and had the biggest division within the firm. Because I'm naturally aggressive and I went after business, any business that I thought I could win, I went after it.

• 2:14:37Speaker 03

  And I left that corporation because they had some unsavory business practices that I couldn't tolerate.

• 2:14:49Speaker 03

  And the president of the corporation and I didn't like each other. So I left and became a consultant and kept working on classified programs. Here and there and worked in business development for to do proposals to win contracts, mostly defense contracts. And then retired, but have been keeping my hand in like writing on these issues and giving presentations to people who really care about these things, I hope.

• 2:15:33Speaker 03

  And I'm kind of like wedded to these campaigns about getting prepared for the next war.

• 2:15:40Jack Murphy?

  That's what I wanted to get into with you next was, you know, you're very passionate about jungle warfare and the training and doctrine that we give our soldiers around that. Could you kind of lay out from your point of view what the current deficiencies are, what lessons maybe need to be re-learned in the force today?

• 2:16:01Speaker 03

  Well, Americans are particularly bad at forgetting past practices that have worked. They constantly reinvent the wheel and every time that happens, casualties result. Lost lives, lost treasure and all that good stuff. That's the reason why I wrote my first book there. And in the course of my research for the first book, I literally read hundreds, that's plural, hundreds of books and field manuals and tech manuals.

• 2:16:45Speaker 03

  And also, non-military authors who wrote on military affairs. And

• 2:17:02Speaker 03

  So I wrote a, an article for the Marine Corps Gazette, which is kind of sets up my concern about being prepared for jungle operations. Anybody who reads it should take the lesson from that article and say, wow, this happened then, it could happen again, shouldn't we do something about that? Now, I'm afraid that it hasn't had enough circulation, where it's been sufficient to have an impact.

• 2:17:42Speaker 03

  But just, just a couple of brief notes about that would be, during World War I, crushing World War II, shortly after Pearl Harbor, the Japanese invaded Malaysia. And at that point, the Brits had a multinational corps in Malaysia, 100,000, something like that, you know, a lot of people.

• 2:18:24Speaker 03

  And the Japanese kicked their asses. So they had Brits, they had Australians, they had Indian, and they had Malaysian troops, and they had some Dutch. 100% casualty rate. And lost Malaysia within two months, something like that. And, and then, then the Japanese invaded Apua, New Guinea.

• 2:19:04Speaker 03

  And the Australians had sent three divisions to fight in North Africa. And they did a great job fighting in North Africa. They were considered by the Allies as an elite echelon of forces. Because they as light infantry.

• 2:19:26Jack Murphy?

  And it's like the Outback, right?

• 2:19:29Speaker 03

  Yes, they had the Outback. Yeah, that's true. They, they, they had that kind of territory. So the, the Japanese were after Port Moresby, which was on the southern coast of Papua New Guinea. And right across the channel from Australia. And if the Japanese were able to take Port Moresby, then there would, there would be a major threat to Australia.

• 2:20:03Speaker 03

  So Australia called in, pulled back one of its crack divisions from North Africa. And they had about a week, I think is probably, probably true, about a week, maybe as much as a month, before they were committed to combat in North Africa against the Japanese. And the Japanese kicked their asses. This is an elite unit. Now, the New Zealanders weren't equipped.

• 2:20:43Speaker 03

  They were still wearing in rainforest, wearing shorts and knee socks and low cut boots and short sleeve shirts in an infested area. And, long story short, 70% casualties for, for this, I think it was the 7th Australian Infantry Division.

• 2:21:18Speaker 03

  Then the Americans were called to participate. And what they wanted to do was to clean the Japanese from these ports that were on the northern coast of Papua New Guinea. Now, the reason why the Australians eventually succeeded in beating back the Japanese was

• 2:21:52Speaker 03

  because our navy had cut off supply lines to Rabaul and other islands where their bases were, and they weren't getting any supplies, they weren't getting personnel replacements, and the Japanese were starving to the point where they were actually indulging in cannibalism. Geez. And so they retired to these ports that were, you know, on the northern coast. And so the Australians and the Americans teamed up.

• 2:22:35Speaker 03

  So there was an American division that was literally boarding vessels to take them to Ireland, heading in the opposite direction when they were recalled, put on trains, sent across the United States, put on boats, sent to Australia, sent to New Guinea. They had a 70% casualty rate. And the story goes on. You know, over and over and over again, these guys were not trained for jungle operations, and they paid for it.

• 2:23:16Speaker 03

  All the way to, and even when they are trained. So, I mean, Merrell's marauders were trained by the Chin Dits in India for four months? I think it was.

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• 2:25:30Speaker 03

  And they were effectively almost a brigade in strength by the time they were committed to Burma. And within five months, they were reduced to about 125 people who could still stand on their feet. And these were trained. So I take a look at the Chinese, and the Chinese have got military districts, and

• 2:26:09Speaker 03

  two to three of them are along their southern border are far jungle and rainforest. They obviously train in that environment. And we don't.

• 2:26:26Jack Murphy?

  One thing I would just point out, Ed, before we move on, is that right now, there's a real focus on drones, and everyone thinks drones are the future of warfare, whether it's the larger ones, airplane-sized ones that fly on surveillance missions, or the small quadcopter drones that you see in Ukraine all the time that fly in and kill soldiers or blow up vehicles. If we have to fight in the jungle again, I'm not saying that we won't ever use drones, but it'll be in a very, very different manner than what we've seen so far.

• 2:26:57Speaker 03

  That is an excellent question. So about three years ago, I went to the SOF Week here in Tampa.

• 2:27:07Jack Murphy?

  I'll be there this year.

• 2:27:08Speaker 03

  Good. And I went, they have a vendor displays there at their convention center here in Tampa. So I went to every drone manufacturer, US drone manufacturer that was there. There was about four or five of them. I asked every one of them, "Do you have a drone that can operate under jungle canopy?" And every one of them said, "No."

• 2:27:45Speaker 03

  And I said, why not? And the answer was almost uniformly. Some, one of them said, I don't know. But the, the answer was because there was no requirement. Right, right. There's no market for it. Yeah, so there is no requirement for that, for a drone with that kind of a capability, or that wasn't then.

• 2:28:16Speaker 03

  And they said, they're not going to waste their R and D dollars on something that the military doesn't want. Right. Why? And so I've mentioned this to some, a number of people. Who ought to be influential at, at the O six level, so forth. And I said, somebody needs a stated requirement for drones that will operate under canopy. Whatever that would take. I, I can think of a number of ways that that could be done.

• 2:28:55Speaker 03

  There are ways where drones could be used in an unconventional warfare setting. Yeah. So, for example, when the Chinese, when the Chinese invade a country in the Pacific Island chain, they have to get there somehow, and that will be vessels, you know, Chinese, the PLA and the Navy of the, and they'll be loaded with a lot of ammunition and fuel and so forth and so on.

• 2:29:39Speaker 03

  So launching drones at those kinds of targets would be very productive because then you're cutting off their logistics chain. Right. And.

• 2:29:53Speaker 03

  And so that would be productive. But how do you resupply an A-team or a special operation team of any service? When we don't own the skies and we don't own the water? And

• 2:30:19Speaker 03

  you don't have an adequate supply of drones? How effective are you going to be? Right. The other interesting thing is, and I asked this a couple of times, to military folks, officer, officers, to include officers. I said, have you ever seen an op plan? Or an op order for that matter? That has an annex in it

• 2:30:59Speaker 03

  that describes what your unit will do if they're cut off by the enemy? Which of course I discuss in my second book because partisans are different from guerrillas. Partisans are conventional troops and conventional units comprised of military personnel who have been cut off from their parent unit. Guerrillas are basically civilians, some of whom may have military backgrounds, but are not no longer military, generally speaking.

• 2:31:43Speaker 03

  So if you're cut off in the island chain someplace from your parent unit, one of your duties is to try and reunite with your parent unit. But if not, then you should be conducting unconventional operations against the enemy. And you should be trained accordingly. And you should have some part of your op order and your op plan indicating what you do.

• 2:32:17Speaker 03

  In the event that you're cut off. And everybody that I've asked, everybody has said they've never seen such a thing. So, you know.

• 2:32:33Speaker 03

  Their head is not in the game, if you follow my drift.

• 2:32:37Jack Murphy?

  Yes, absolutely. And your second book that you mentioned, it's going to be sort of a manual, and I'm guessing like your special reconnaissance book, but about unconventional warfare?

• 2:32:49Speaker 03

  Yep, there's a cover out on it.

• 2:32:52Jack Murphy?

  Oh, cool.

• 2:32:52Speaker 03

  You can see on CaseMate would have a cover.

• 2:32:57Jack Murphy?

  Okay, so people can, people can probably go and preorder it?

• 2:33:01Speaker 03

  They can preorder, they can preorder it from Penn and Sard and CaseMate. CaseMate is the US distributor for Penn and Sard, which is my publisher.

• 2:33:12Speaker 03

  It was on Amazon for preorder, but because there's been a delay in.

• 2:33:21Jack Murphy?

  The printing.

• 2:33:22Speaker 03

  Release of, and publication, publication and release of the book. They, they, they pulled that advertisement down from the, from the page

• 2:33:35Speaker 03

  at Amazon until they have something, a commitment from the publisher on when it's actually going to be available.

• 2:33:42Jack Murphy?

  What's the name of the book so people can go find it?

• 2:33:47Speaker 03

  Oh, it's, just, just search under my name, there's only two books.

• 2:33:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, Lieutenant Colonel Ed Wolcoff, W O L C O O C O F F.

• 2:34:01Speaker 03

  That's correct, yeah.

• 2:34:05Jack Murphy?

  Well, and just a few other things as we start to wrap up here. You also have a new article coming out about military intelligence?

• 2:34:17Speaker 03

  I've started writing on it, but I've been diverted on writing a novel right now.

• 2:34:22Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 2:34:23Speaker 03

  That I got, working on a deadline to get done. And as soon as I've, I've, I've dropped that, then I'll, I'll, I'll finish off this article.

• 2:34:33Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 2:34:33Speaker 03

  And, and that, that is, it goes back to this same issue. You, you go and ask a military audience of whatever size you like, and you ask them, how many of you know?

• 2:34:47Speaker 03

  What the uh

• 2:34:50Speaker 03

  uh the Chinese armies

• 2:34:54Speaker 03

  uh TTPs and battle drills are. And you will not get a single hand, I could almost guarantee it.

• 2:35:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:04Speaker 03

  Uh, and uh uh if you don't know how the enemy is going to come at you and and then but you can be guaranteed that they know how you're going to come at them. But they don't know, you know, we don't know how they're going to come at us unless we start studying these these things and incorporating those into training. So force on force, red on blue kinds of training needs to be done. Uh incorporating these Chinese tactics.

• 2:35:40Jack Murphy?

  And

• 2:35:40Speaker 03

  It's an interesting history about the development of their tactics, actually.

• 2:35:44Jack Murphy?

  Uh I'm actually, yeah, I'm fascinated to read that myself. Um, but you told me this novel you're working on is like 95% done in the ballpark there. Do you want to give people like a thumbnail sketch of what to expect?

• 2:35:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's some uh as a novel, uh of course I take some literary license. Uh, some of it is true, some of it is uh not true. Some is based on actual events. Uh, some are embellished events. Some of the personalities are by name, some of them are not. Uh, and uh

• 2:36:23Speaker 03

  but it is uh based on SOG operations and some of the operations that I was involved in that materialized or did not. I know I'm being a little mysterious here, but uh the core of the book is about uh a

• 2:36:41Speaker 03

  a special forces SOG team leader who goes off as rocker. Uh, and uh because of the pressures of deep penetration operations and he has personal tragedy uh with uh with a wife who committed suicide on him and and stuff like that. Uh, and uh he uh

• 2:37:10Speaker 03

  His uh, his uh, his teammates are thinking that he's suicidal and he's,

• 2:37:20Speaker 03

  they're concerned about not only his welfare, but their own. So I mean, that's, that's kind of like the theme of it.

• 2:37:26Jack Murphy?

  A little bit of Apocalypse Now meets MacV Sog.

• 2:37:32Speaker 03

  You know, Apocalypse Now, there was actually a character in there from Sog.

• 2:37:36Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:37:38Speaker 03

  Captain.

• 2:37:39Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:42Speaker 03

  Uh, which uh,

• 2:37:46Speaker 03

  I didn't know that actually for years.

• 2:37:51Speaker 03

  Uh, until I, I read an article about it.

• 2:37:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, the uh,

• 2:37:59Speaker 03

  uh, so that, so that

• 2:38:02Speaker 03

  I, I, there are any number of operations that came out of Sog that could be turned into movies.

• 2:38:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 2:38:13Speaker 03

  It could be turned into a series, TV series. Uh, that uh,

• 2:38:25Speaker 03

  and, and you know, Apocalypse Now isn't too far from.

• 2:38:29Jack Murphy?

  I'm, I, I'm shocked that they haven't done that already. And the only reason I can kind of in my imagination chalk it up to is that still to this day, there's got to be some trepidation in Hollywood about the Vietnam War. Um, but even then, I mean, they did, uh, We Were Soldiers, um, films like that. So I really don't know why they haven't made a Sog film.

• 2:38:52Speaker 03

  If it's anti-war, they'll be happy to.

• 2:38:55Jack Murphy?

  We, We Were Soldiers wasn't very anti-war. It was fairly, um.

• 2:39:01Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:39:03Speaker 03

  You mentioned that We Were Soldiers, which is, uh,

• 2:39:08Speaker 03

  I'll tell you at some point,

• 2:39:12Speaker 03

  I'll, I'll give you a critique of that operation.

• 2:39:17Speaker 03

  Uh, that kind of dovetails into some of the things I'm doing about, uh.

• 2:39:26Speaker 03

  Intelligence failures.

• 2:39:31Jack Murphy?

  Yup.

• 2:39:34Speaker 03

  But the one, not Apocalypse Now, but the...

• 2:39:42Jack Murphy?

  Platoon?

• 2:39:43Speaker 03

  Platoon. Yes. So Platoon was definitely anti-war.

• 2:39:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:39:49Speaker 03

  And it got, how many Academy words? I don't know. But if the, if the message is anti-war, then I think Hollywood would, you know, entertain it.

• 2:40:06Speaker 03

  But if it's to celebrate military

• 2:40:14Speaker 03

  operations, then you're probably right. There, it's poison ivy to them.

• 2:40:20Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. I think we, we at least ought to be able to celebrate the bravery and the heroism that some of these guys showed out there.

• 2:40:29Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. So it is, would make really, really dramatic impact. Horrific. I mean gore soaked kind of.

• 2:40:39Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:40:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. So, you know, to kind of give you an example of that before, you know, you run out of time here is

• 2:40:51Speaker 03

  shortly be, before I, I arrived, maybe three months before I arrived at CCC,

• 2:41:01Speaker 03

  the FOBs were organized differently. There was a commander of all the FOBs. And later on, they were separated out to individual FOBs, all under a command of Lieutenant Colonel.

• 2:41:22Speaker 03

  And it was at the, at that juncture, about a month before I got there, maybe a couple of months before I got there, where those, those FOBs were actually separated out under separate command.

• 2:41:35Speaker 03

  And there was no capstone

• 2:41:41Speaker 03

  CCC or CNC commander, so to speak, other than SOG headquarters itself.

• 2:41:50Speaker 03

  And

• 2:41:55Speaker 03

  So the, uh,

• 2:42:00Speaker 03

  you know, forgot, forgot my thread here.

• 2:42:09Speaker 03

  All right. So there was a, a team leader whose name evades me, who had been on an operation,

• 2:42:21Speaker 03

  uh,

• 2:42:23Speaker 03

  about three weeks, four weeks prior to the one I'm about to mention. And for that operation, he was put in for the Medal of Honor and received it.

• 2:42:35Speaker 03

  His name, uh, evades me right now. And he was,

• 2:42:42Speaker 03

  his subsequent,

• 2:42:46Speaker 03

  uh, assignment was bright light. So he's a dot toe.

• 2:42:52Speaker 03

  So a team goes, is, is sent from C C N.

• 2:42:58Speaker 03

  Uh, and at this, at this point, C C C is commanded by a major. So this lieutenant colonel sends a team to, to, uh, C C C to launch into C C C's A O.

• 2:43:16Speaker 03

  And

• 2:43:19Speaker 03

  the, uh, the team leader is kind of arrogant, thinking that, uh, he's seen everything there is to see, based on his, you know, the work that he did up at C C N. He goes into an area, uh, near the area that I referred to as Hotel Nine, earlier in the conversation.

• 2:43:48Speaker 03

  And, uh,

• 2:43:54Speaker 03

  They, uh, for about a day, they're moving freely. And their practice was to, when they make, uh, uh, uh, night defensive perimeter. Back then, we called it R O N, rest overnight. They formed a linear, uh, arrangement where the, the yards and the Americans would sit in a line, back to back, facing out. Which is a horrible thing to do.

• 2:44:35Speaker 03

  This was being taught, actually, at, uh, at long time. And it's literally, one rocket would, would kill most of a team, if not all of them, if fired, uh, along the long axis. So, very, very stupid, in my view. And you don't have visibility over terrain as it varies from, from where you actually are. So, you catch my point? So, they're in that, uh, and comes dawn, which is normally, uh, a, a period of, a

• 2:45:17Speaker 03

  point of, uh, uh, extreme caution. Want to be an extreme caution, because that's when the North, North Vietnamese would hit a recon team. After tracking them, they would close the distance and get ready to assault as dawn strike, as, as, as the sun starts to come up. So, as always, you know, you should always be very careful around that time. And this team did not take that care. And one American, uh, the assistant team leader gets up and he has to go take a crap.

• 2:46:01Speaker 03

  Takes off his web gear, his, his rucksack is laying on the ground, takes his weapon, and he goes down to take, take a crap, down slope. And just then, the NVA attack.

• 2:46:20Speaker 03

  Uh, and they kill

• 2:46:25Speaker 03

  everybody on the team except for the two Americans, the team leader and the radio man.

• 2:46:35Speaker 03

  Two Montyards. The guy who's taking a crap and another Montyard who managed to break away.

• 2:46:47Speaker 03

  These are

• 2:46:50Speaker 03

  North Vietnamese special operations personnel. And one of them is carrying a flamethrower.

• 2:46:59Speaker 03

  And he lights up part of the perimeter and kills some of the Montyard with a flamethrower. They capture two Montyards and the two Americans. And they take them off and they tie them to trees. Uh, and, uh,

• 2:47:21Speaker 03

  along comes a, an NVA officer who speaks perfect English. He knows their names. He knows the, the name of the team.

• 2:47:33Speaker 03

  Uh, and, uh, who's in charge, you know, who's the team leader, all that kind of detail. He knows.

• 2:47:47Speaker 03

  And he's, he's happy to tell the team leader and the radio man that he knows this.

• 2:47:55Speaker 03

  Uh, and then he said, basically he directs the flamethrower, the guy who has the flamethrower to use the flamethrower on the two Montyards who are tied to trees and

• 2:48:10Speaker 03

  burns them to a cinder. And meanwhile, the team leader is screaming at the North Vietnamese and telling them, you know, he's trying to put the bravest front that he can. He knows he's doomed. So he's basically telling them.

• 2:48:28Speaker 03

  You know, fuck you.

• 2:48:33Speaker 03

  Uh, so.

• 2:48:36Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:48:51Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:49:02Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:49:07Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:49:13Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:49:33Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 2:50:00Speaker 09

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• 2:50:31Speaker 03

  The, uh, you know, do your worst. And, and, and the, the, this officer directs the flamethrower tell, uh, operator to turn the flamethrower on, on the team leader and burns him to a center.

• 2:50:48Speaker 03

  He doesn't do anything to the radio man.

• 2:50:53Speaker 03

  And he tells the radio man, "I'm gonna let you go."

• 2:51:00Speaker 03

  And my purpose is, I want you to tell everybody what you've seen here today.

• 2:51:07Speaker 03

  So...

• 2:51:10Speaker 03

  The, uh...

• 2:51:13Speaker 03

  The guy who's out taking the dump in the other Montneyard wind up getting to an LZ and they're extracted.

• 2:51:24Speaker 03

  And the NVA take the radio man to an LZ without his equipment, without his weapon, so forth. They leave him his, uh... His, uh... His panel. The, uh...

• 2:51:40Jack Murphy?

  VS-17 panel.

• 2:51:42Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, uh... So a search i-is conducted and they, and they see the panel and they recover this guy from LZ and the NVA don't attempt to bring down the helicopter that retrieves him. And they take him back to the FOB and he tells this story about how they were compromised.

• 2:52:04Speaker 03

  And the use of the flamethrower and all this shit.

• 2:52:10Speaker 03

  And...

• 2:52:12Speaker 03

  The commander from CCN who controlled all the FOBs

• 2:52:19Speaker 03

  flies down by helicopter

• 2:52:22Speaker 03

  to dock toe

• 2:52:25Speaker 03

  and gets nose to nose with this poor guy, this radio man.

• 2:52:31Speaker 03

  And tells him that he's a liar and he's a coward.

• 2:52:38Speaker 03

  And meanwhile, Zabatowski is the guy who got the Medal of Honor. Zabatowski is there at the, uh... At the launch site.

• 2:52:51Speaker 03

  And Zabatowski goes to this officer and confronts him. And says, don't you dare, you know, challenge this, this young man up. I'm convinced that he's telling the truth. And I'm going to go in under bright light and find the remains of this team. And by now, they were still trying to find the, you know, the, uh, the, the other American and the at Montier.

• 2:53:31Speaker 03

  And he says, and if you got any hair on your balls at all, you'll come with me. And this Lieutenant Colonel refuses to do that. Uh, so he goes in on the operation and he finds the site. You know, he follows the trail from the LZ back to where this incineration had been done. And he finds all these, these burnout corpses and retrieves them.

• 2:54:02Speaker 03

  Uh, and Chief Sog finds out about how this Lieutenant Colonel treated this radio man and relieves him for what he did. Uh, and, uh, so wouldn't that make a great episode in a movie?

• 2:54:31Jack Murphy?

  I mean, yeah, it's

• 2:54:32Speaker 03

  That makes a high drama in a movie.

• 2:54:36Jack Murphy?

  Um, yeah, totally insane stories that came out of some of these missions. Um, so again, I want to tell folks about special reconnaissance and advanced small unit patrolling written by our guest here, Lieutenant Colonel Ed Wolcoff. This is available now. You can go find it and his new book about unconventional warfare can be preordered over on the casemate website. And I'll be looking forward to some of the other works, you know, your novel and your article that you're working on, Ed. And, um, otherwise I just wanted to say thank you for coming on the show. Um, we really appreciate it.

• 2:55:13Speaker 03

  Okay. Appreciate it. Thank you.

• 2:55:16Jack Murphy?

  Uh, any final thoughts before we, uh, we check out for tonight?

• 2:55:21Speaker 03

  Well, after you check out, then we can have, you know, a couple other.

• 2:55:24Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 2:55:25Speaker 03

  Mentions.

• 2:55:26Jack Murphy?

  Okay, absolutely. So for everyone else out there, um, we will see you guys next time. Thanks for joining us.

• 2:55:35Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. I want to tell you about my new novel, The Most Dangerous Man, out in June. It is a novel about a regimental reconnaissance company soldier who gets kidnapped while he's on a mission to West Africa. And when he wakes up, he finds that he is now being hunted for sport by a group of tech billionaires through the wilds of West Africa. This book is based on stories that I heard over the years about safari guides taking wealthy clients hunting for poachers on game reserves in Africa. I took that and I took a century old short story, The Most Dangerous Game, and modernized it. And the product is this book, which I think will feel contemporary and resonate with audiences today.

• 2:56:19Jack Murphy?

  Thank you, and please check it out.

• 2:56:22Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:56:37Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:56:48Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:56:53Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:56:59Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:57:19Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

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• 2:58:22Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:58:37Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:58:48Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:58:53Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:58:59Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 2:59:19Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 2:59:46Speaker 01

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• 3:00:20Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 3:00:35Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 3:00:46Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 3:00:51Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 3:00:57Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 3:01:17Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

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  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 3:02:32Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 3:02:43Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 3:02:49Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 3:02:54Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 3:03:14Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 3:03:42Speaker 01

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• 3:04:17Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 3:04:32Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 3:04:43Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 3:04:48Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 3:04:54Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 3:05:14Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

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• 3:06:19Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 3:06:34Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 3:06:45Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 3:06:50Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 3:06:56Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

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  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

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• 3:08:21Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 3:08:36Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 3:08:47Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 3:08:52Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 3:08:58Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 3:09:18Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 3:09:45Speaker 09

  Cash Flow Crunch on Deck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:10:21Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 3:10:36Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 3:10:47Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 3:10:52Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 3:10:58Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 3:11:18Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 3:11:45Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:12:19Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 3:12:33Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 3:12:44Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 3:12:49Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 3:12:55Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 3:13:15Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 3:13:43Speaker 08

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:14:20Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 3:14:34Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to "I'm deathly allergic," in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 3:14:45Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 3:14:50Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 3:14:56Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 3:15:16Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 3:15:44Speaker 08

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's Small Business Line of Credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 3:16:15Speaker 10

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 3:16:28Speaker 11

  Zolir 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolir, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolir. Zolir may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolir should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolir is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or hardened circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolir.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolir.

• 3:17:11Speaker 11

  This is an advertisement for Zolir paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 3:17:14Speaker 00

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 3:17:42Speaker 08

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.