Task Force Orange Operator (ISA) | Joe England | Ep. 396

Joe England is a retired Army veteran with an unconventional path through special operations, including Special Forces support, service in one of the Army’s most secret special mission units (TFO/ISA), and later Army aviation as a helicopter pilot. In this episode, he shares hard-earned lessons on selection, leadership, identity, mental health recovery, and how those experiences shaped his mission today through his Stoic Viking platform. Find Joe here: ⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@TheStoicViking https://www.instagram.com/stoicviking2025/?hl=en Today's Sponsors: Qualia ⬇️ Take control of your cellular health today. Go to https://qualialife.com/HOUSE to get 50% off and save an extra 15% with the code HOUSE. Miracle Made Sheets ⬇️ Go to https://TryMiracle.com/HOUSE to try Miracle Made sheets today. You’ll save over 40%, and when you use promo code HOUSE, you’ll get an extra 20% off plus a FREE 3-piece towel set. GhostBed⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 25% off! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For ad free video and audio and access to live streams and Eyes On Geopolitics... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured __________________________________ Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 0:00 Start 1:11 Born Into Service: Family Legacy + Germany Years 3:52 Head-On Crash Survivor: TBI, Brain Recovery, and Comeback 7:34 2005 Surge Era: Why He Enlisted Anyway 9:27 Farsi Linguist Path: The Backdoor to 5th Group 11:01 Rejected, Then Approved: The Airborne Packet Gamble 13:06 SAD-A Explained: How SIGINT Hunts Targets and Protects Teams 23:38 Inside ISA Selection: The Most Psychological Pipeline? 29:03 Tactical Detachment: Freefall School + Blue vs Green Culture 1:04:08 Mental Health Rock Bottom: Suicide Plan, Dog, and Turning Point 1:13:01 CID Investigation Fallout 1:36:58 Unfiltered Q&A: TFO Myths, OPE Changes, RRC Interfacing Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is Iris Palmer from Against All Odds with Iris Palmer. You know that feeling when your skin needs a tall drink of water? That's when you reach for Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour Moisturizer and let your skin soak it up. It absorbs instantly and gives you 100 hours of hydration for that plump, healthy-looking glow. And the texture? Lightweight, refreshing, oil-free gel cream that feels so good going on. Never heavy or weighted down. Plus, it's allergy-tested, fragrance-free, and safe for sensitive skin. Check, check, and super check. Try Clinique Moisture Surge 100 Hour today at Clinique.com. Feels like Moisture Surge.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  The Team House with your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park.

• 1:19Jack Murphy?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Jack Murphy. This is The Team House. I'm here with our guest today, Joe England. Joe had a very interesting career, an unconventional career in several ways. He served as a SAD-A in Special Forces. And then he went on to be a SIGINT guy in the unit known as TFO or ISA, one of the Army Special Mission Units. And then he became a helicopter pilot. And today, he runs a YouTube channel that talks about health and wellness, mental health. And also, he's recently retired and had a bit of an upset on the way out the door that we'll talk about a little later in this interview. But Joe, thank you so much for taking some time this evening to talk to us.

• 2:05Speaker 04

  Absolutely. Appreciate it.

• 2:07Jack Murphy?

  So, look, man, we were talking a little bit before the show. I'd love to hear a little bit about your childhood and growing up. I mean, you told me you have a really extensive military history in your family.

• 2:21Speaker 04

  Yes. So, yeah, I come from a long line of pretty much officers, at least until May, dating back to the Civil War. My great grandfather was in Spanish American War, charged up San Juan Hill, World War I, did a number of different things. And then he had three sons who were all officers of World War II, including my grandfather, who was one of Patton's company tank commanders. The other brother was in the 82nd, and I believe the other, the third one was some sort of artillery officer. I'm not as aware of it. And then my

• 3:01Speaker 04

  father was a Colonel who started in artillery, and then he ended in military intelligence. And then my brother was an 18 Alpha who ended up becoming, he led a dive team out of First Group.

• 3:15Jack Murphy?

  That's awesome. And you guys, you know, because you were in a military family, you guys grew up in Germany, right?

• 3:22Speaker 04

  Yes. So about six months after I was born, we moved to Germany. So from about then till we, we were there for 10 years, but we did have a two-year stint in between where we actually moved to Alaska. So the first time that I moved to the continental United States was when I was about 13 years old. And we moved to Seattle, Washington, where my, where my father would end up retiring at Fort Lewis McCord Base.

• 3:53Jack Murphy?

  And you and the, your brothers were very involved in soccer from growing up in Europe?

• 3:59Speaker 04

  Yes. So we, when we, when we lived in Germany, I think my father had, which I would always thank him for, is that instead of living on the American bases, he chose to live on the German economy. And Germany is just like a collection of small towns. And like over here, you play for soccer clubs. Well, in Germany, you play for your town. And a town that maybe have like a couple thousand people, and maybe you, it's like only, you could drive through this town in like a few minutes, that town, soccer stadium.

• 4:29Speaker 04

  Would have practice fields, everything and you would play for your town. So by the time we came to the United States, we were probably at least a year or two ahead of all the Americans we played with. And because of that, out of the five of us, four of us went to college on soccer scholarships.

• 4:44Jack Murphy?

  Mm hmm. And I mean, it sounds like you were having a really good time too, um, in college, you know, playing soccer, but uh, really you, you had this accident, not, not your fault, of course, but got into this car accident that kind of like, it did shape the rest of your life, I feel like.

• 5:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, it, it definitely changed everything that I essentially had a plan for. I think I had delusions of grandeur that I was going to finish college, become a professional soccer player. But uh, so I was driving home, this was my freshman year of college and was driving home, we were going, it was like 3:30 in the morning, we were going to my girlfriend's place who was attending UW, which is on the north side of Seattle. And we were on the south side of Seattle. I remember at one point in the drive, and then I woke up in a hospital bed. And I was like my, I was, I had a, I believe it was a respirator in, uh, so obviously I couldn't talk. I was basically couldn't move anything. And, you know, I eventually

• 5:45Speaker 04

  when I come to, my dad's there, I signaled for him because I realized I can't talk. And then I asked him if my girlfriend was okay, because she was in the car, because I don't remember anything, just remember waking up, I'm in a hospital bed, and I was just afraid that I'd killed her. And luckily, what I wrote was like, where's Karen? And he's like, she's fine. And then I was like, similarly relieved, passed out, woke up like 12 hours later. And then that's when my dad would tell me that I was in a head-on car accident, drunk, gut driver going the wrong way down the freeway, uh, where we, apparently I turned the car at the last second, we went headlight to headlight, and then this swung around and all the power hit the west side of my car, which, uh, jeez, the car went through

• 6:28Speaker 04

  my elbow, cutting that in half. I had pieces of car that went into my arm and then it just kept traveling. 29 stitches on this arm, uh, ruptured spleen, 29 staples to take that out, and then a brain hemorrhage, uh, which was actually the worst thing. And actually, I still have contusions on my shin bones, other parts of my bones that even 21 years later are still visible. So, and then, yeah. And so the brain hemorrhage, I suffered a lot of brain damage. I was assessed to have degraded to a second grade math level, which math was actually my best subject. I attended AP Calculus, took the AP Calculus exam in high school and had major

• 7:10Speaker 04

  speech problems, memory problems. And yeah, I was a mess and then tried to go back to school less than a month later and that did not end well. I dropped out within a week.

• 7:21Jack Murphy?

  Because of, you know, what we now know, I don't know if they were applying the term so much or if as much was understood, but I mean, veterans know a lot about traumatic brain injury now. And you had one before you went into the military and it sounds like it really affected you.

• 7:39Speaker 04

  It did. And I was, I was little concerned and that was the hardest part of my recovery. Because physically, like, most of all my injuries, with the exception of the brain hemorrhage, they just kind of patched me up and sent me on way and like, everything would recover. Like the elbow bone grew back, my abdominal wall obviously reconnected. But, you know, I was, I was so frustrated because, one, I didn't even know if my cognitive abilities would ever return. And then secondly, like, what, what can I do about it? It's not like physical where I can, you know, I can go to the gym, start working out, like, who knows what I can do. And then my family started blaming my girlfriend, that it was her fault, that we got hit by a drunk driver, because if I wasn't dating her, I wouldn't have been

• 8:23Speaker 04

  on that road. And so just altogether, then I got frustrated. I was like, screw it. So six months after the car accident, I went to a recruiter. And then nine months later, nine months, I think it was nine months to the day, or almost to the day, I shipped off her basic.

• 8:40Jack Murphy?

  So it is the lovely year of 2005 during the surge and you walk in there, your body's still a mess. And they're like, we got something for you. No problem.

• 8:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. So I tried to, you know, because obviously I saw the movie Green Berets when I was 10 years old with John Wayne. I was like, this is, this is the, this is what you got to be. So try to do the A10 X-ray program. But obviously, you know, they, they do the whole, whole medical thing. And obviously you cannot hide this giant scar, which is like, you know, like 12 inches. And so obviously they learn I have a spleenectomy, but I didn't know anything about the process. So I didn't think it was going to be an issue. I was already back to normal, running and everything. But it turned out that, uh, and there's a list of things that disqualify you from airborne, ranger and special forces. But one of the only things that disqualified you just from special forces

• 9:29Speaker 04

  is the absence of a spleen. Uh, and I, you know, I think I was told this was more of like an observation, but that this, this medical doctrine was based back in the Vietnam era. You know, it's the, it's a part of immune system, but it helps fight fevers. And that's really all, all that it does. And so, so when I got turned down with that, I tried to inquire with the recruiter, hey, can I get a waiver? Right? And he was like, yeah, no MAFS doctor is going to assume that risk. Uh, but randomly he knew that there was a back route to get to special forces. And he told me, he's like, once you get there, you have a much better chance of getting a waiver. Once you're within a group. And I was like, well, how do I do that?

• 10:15Speaker 04

  And he was like, well, you can go be a linguist. And I was like, linguist? Well, I don't, I'm trying to be a great, why would I be a linguist? Right? And he was like, well, well, you get to go to California for a year, learn a language, and you get your associate's degree. And when I heard California, I was like, okay. I like what you're saying. And, uh, so that's, that's what I ended up going with. Got Persian Farsi, uh, did the course in a year, didn't roll back, actually, passed. I actually almost maxed the test.

• 10:44Jack Murphy?

  That's awesome.

• 10:44Speaker 04

  Despite all my cognitive abilities.

• 10:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:48Speaker 04

  Uh, and then, uh, and that's when I submitted for my first airborne packet, which ended up becoming a side of an issue.

• 10:55Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Tell us about that.

• 10:57Speaker 04

  So at the end of DLI, so about a month or two before we were about to finish, that's when they're like, hey, if you want to go to group, you have to submit an airborne packet. And then you have to submit a part of that, you submit a packet that says, I'm volunteering for group, which a lot, I was surprised to find out that most linguists don't want to go to group. And of course, what I would learn later on in life or later on in my career, that as a linguist, there's no better job than being a SAD, absolutely no better job. So I do this airborne packet, I volunteer for group, but I still have to be approved. So. As I am going to out process after I passed my test and essentially graduated on my final day, I go in there and I haven't received my airborne packet. So I go in to go see the doctor

• 11:42Speaker 04

  to get my final signature for my out processing. And she's like, oh, and by the way, I have your airborne packet. I was like, okay, cool. She's like, you were rejected. And I'm like, I was rejected. She's like, yeah, because you had a brain hemorrhage, you are rejected from going to airborne. And I was admitted like at first I was like devastated. I was like, I was like, what do I do? But then she puts the failed airborne packet on my medical records, which were not digital. You know, this is 2006. And then I start walking outside and I'm thinking about like, what am I gonna do? And then I look to my left and I see a trash can as I'm walking out and just hits me. And I just walk over, no, just, and I just turn the, you know, the medical record and I let the

• 12:25Speaker 04

  failed airborne packet just slide right into the trash can.

• 12:28Jack Murphy?

  Yes.

• 12:29Speaker 04

  And then I PCS to San Angelo, Texas for the second part of our training. And I go in there to the medical facility. And I'm like, I want to apply for airborne packet. So they give me airborne packet and they get to the part where it says, have you ever applied for your airborne, airborne, this, this packet form? And I checked, no. And then got to the part where, uh, have you ever had a brain injury or TBI? And I said, nope. And I was approved two weeks later and I was, I learned that my first PCS after all my training, the airborne training, I would be fifth special forces group.

• 13:00Jack Murphy?

  Your, uh, attempts at misconduct here clearly allude to your capacity to be an army spy. I think you passed the test.

• 13:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:12Speaker 04

  Uh, that's actually, yeah, well, we actually, that, now that I think about it, that's an interesting thing that I will actually discuss about the particular part of the packet. Because at this point, and I can get into that later, but you know, at this point, you obviously don't want to tell the military, like, everything because you'll get screwed. But when it came to the ISA packet, you were encouraged to actually tell them the truth. And actually in the portion of the packet, I probably get it ahead of myself, but they actually tell you that whatever you say will not go back to the regular army.

• 13:43Jack Murphy?

  I hope, I hope that's true.

• 13:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, at least it wasn't the time.

• 13:47Jack Murphy?

  Um, so, um, you move on to the next phase of your training. And before we move on, I think we should, um, I'd like to ask you for the viewers out there, the listeners, uh, do you want to tell them what a SAD is and what, what a SAD does?

• 14:01Speaker 04

  Yes, so a SAD is a, it stands for Special Operations Team Alpha. And at the time, only linguists were allowed to be Special Oper- or SADs. If you were a signals, because a linguist is actually a cryptological linguist, right? So not only are you a language, but you actually have a siget portion of your job. And that's the cryptological part. There's another MOS that goes alongside it, and that's the cryptological analyst. And they, at the time, were only allowed to be Special Operations Bravos or SADBs, which are the analyst portions of that. So like, SADs were the collectors.

• 14:44Speaker 04

  And SAD, you would send your signals, information that you collected, back to the SADBs. But the interesting thing about, because every other linguist would be in some sort of facility, whether the NSA or some sort of FOB. But SADs were the close access signals collectors. So all the devices and everything that you were given and how you had to do stuff, you actually had to be onsite with the teams. So during deployments, instead of being deployed with either the battalion element or the company element, all SADs were deployed with the teams. And you were attached to an ODA, which ended up being amazing because you, you spend your entire deployment as just an extension of essentially these ODAs.

• 15:29Speaker 04

  And you get to, you know, sort of live that life as much, as closely as you can.

• 15:36Jack Murphy?

  Ever wake up sweaty, freezing, or just uncomfortable? The temperature in your bedroom can make or break your sleep. That's why I switched to Miracle Made Sheets. They're inspired by NASA technology and use silver infused, temperature regulating fabric to help you sleep perfectly all night long.

• 15:56Jack Murphy?

  Miracle Maids Sheets are crafted with NASA-inspired silver-infused fabric that helps regulate your body temperature. Hot sleeper, cold sleeper, it doesn't matter. These sheets will help keep you in the comfort zone all night long. Thanks to their antibacterial silver technology, Miracle Maids Sheets stay cleaner and fresher up to three times longer than regular sheets. That means fewer odors, fewer wash cycles, and way less laundry. All that hidden bacteria in regular sheets can clog your pores and cause breakouts. Miracle Maids antibacterial design helps you sleep cleaner and clearer night after night. Upgrade your

• 16:34Jack Murphy?

  sleep or give the gift of better rest. Go to trymiracle.com/ house to try Miracle Maids Sheets today. You'll save 40% and when you use promo code HOUSE, you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three-piece towel set. They make an amazing gift and with a 30-day money-back guarantee, there's no risk. That's trymiracle.com/ house, code HOUSE at checkout. Thanks to Miracle Maids for sponsoring this podcast. Today I want to tell you guys about Qualia Stem Cell. Maybe all of you, most of you, have experienced what it's like to get older. And as you age, you don't heal quite as fast

• 17:18Jack Murphy?

  as you used to. You don't recover as fast as you used to. And it can feel like your body is not putting out as you expect it to. It can feel like the dial has been turned down one notch. You feel like, you know, it's similar to the same feeling as getting sick, right? So you feel that, you know, you're not really where you should be. You're racking up these little injuries that seem to recover very slowly. But there is something you can do about it. As it turns out, the secret to healing, recovery, and resilience isn't just luck, it's stem cells. These are your body's built-in repair crew. But as we age, the system slows down. Fewer cells, weaker signals, and slower recovery. This is why Qualia Stem

• 18:01Jack Murphy?

  Cell was created. Your cells are powerful and you can make sure that they stay that way with Qualia's innovative new Stem Cell Formula.

• 18:10Jack Murphy?

  They are crafted with nature's most powerful healers like sea buckthorn and royal jelly. So you're ready to take on what's next. You only need to take it for four days a month, preserving your body's regenerative capacity over time. So I've been taking Qualia for the last three months. I'm actually taking it right now. And it's six pills for the first four days of each month. And then you're starting again the preceding month. And I found it helpful. I had little pains in my, my right wrist, my left ankle and some other things in my elbows too. And, and I feel actually quite a bit better since I started going through this process. And I hope you guys will check it out if you're experiencing something similar.

• 18:52Jack Murphy?

  If you've ever felt like your body just doesn't bounce back like it used to, whether it's after a tough workout, getting sick, or just the wear and tear of life, then this is for you. Qualia stem cell was designed to support your body's natural repair systems, helping you heal, recover, and keep going strong. And right now you can try it for up to 50% off at qualialife.com/house. And there's a bonus, use the code HOUSE for an additional 15% off your order. That's Qualia, Q-U-A-L-I-A, life.com/ house. Your body's built to repair itself. Qualia just helps it do that better. A big thanks to Qualia for sponsoring this episode.

• 19:33Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 19:48Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 19:59Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 20:04Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 20:10Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 20:59Jack Murphy?

  I guess we'll get into it a little bit, but would it be fair to say that one part of the job is offensively looking for the bad guys? And also maybe part of it is also like force protection, like I'm listening to the bad guys.

• 21:12Speaker 04

  Absolutely. So that's actually how the SADAY job started because, you know, before cell phones and everything like that, SADAYs were basically force protection because they'd go out with the teams and obviously they would get on, you know, like the PRD-13 and all these radio interception devices. And that's how they would detect if they were going to get ambushed or not because usually there would be some sort of radio traffic like, hey, they're coming up. So that was the job of SADAY. But then rolling into 2000, the early 2000s, when SIGINT really started to go into the cellphone, stuff like that, and that type of signal is actually short range.

• 21:53Speaker 04

  Like radios have a much longer range, but cell phones, the way they talk to towers, have a much shorter range. So what you end up having to be is, so you then ended up becoming not more just force protection, you actually became offensive, at least especially in the intelligence roles. And it was sort of like the heyday of when, you know, we had the kegs of the kingdom, you know, there was less to no encryption and, you know, it was like the wild, wild west when it came to us. Things were easy. They would later become much, much harder and our job became, luckily I had left at this point, but almost became later on like obsolete as the technology upgraded from 2G to 3G and then 4G.

• 22:35Speaker 04

  And by the time it got to 5G, there was, there was no more job, at least in that portion of it.

• 22:42Jack Murphy?

  And you get sent to the SAD at Fifth Group. And what is it like from there? I mean, now you're kind of integrating with the teams, going through the pre-mission training and deployments are coming up.

• 22:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. So we got, they, they chose which ODA that we would attach with first. So on my first deployment, I technically, we, we spent like half the deployment with one ODA and we spent the second half with a different ODA. So the one that we were getting attached to first, when we did our pre-mission, pre-mission deployment training, we, we were actually with them the entire time. So we could, you know, really start to integrate with them, you know, because you know, as you know, when you're, when you're running around in like Humvees, because especially 2007, we were, I think everybody else wasn't allowed to run around in Humvees except for the SF guys. And usually because they still needed guys back, sometimes they could only man two Humvees. But with the SAD team, we always could have three.

• 23:38Speaker 04

  So they, they definitely used this as extra guns. And, you know, so we got a lot of pre-mission, pre-mission deployment training. And then I got, we actually went on the deployment and there was the 18 Zulu, his name is Boomer. And Boomer instantly took a liking to me. He was impressed with me. He learned that I, being a SAD or being a Lingus was not my original goal. I want to be an 18 x-ray. And, you know, and when the battalion commander, battalion CSM did their, their visits to all the team houses during that deployment, he arranged for me to have a one-on-one meeting for both battalion commander and battalion CSM about me potentially becoming an 18 series.

• 24:22Speaker 04

  And that interview went really well. The battalion CSM took it upon himself to research my waiver, because at this point, between them, Boomer, they all felt that I would make a very good Green Beret, I guess a good candidate for it. So they found out I needed a, it needed to be signed by a general officer, which everybody knows or doesn't know that the highest ranking officer in a group is a colonel. So it had to go above group. And you know, unfortunately, that waiver would end up, it would be approved by his deputy. But in between the week that the deputy needed to prove it and the general officer to prove it, somebody died in the queue course, if I remember correctly, from a supposed snake bite,

• 25:07Speaker 04

  which they then was told, then I was then told that the commander did not want to assume the risk for somebody who had a weakened or compromised immune system, I believe is the correct verbiage that they used.

• 25:21Jack Murphy?

  That must have been, yeah, kind of a kick in the nuts. And then you went during, kind of like during and as all of that is transpiring, you're also rotating back overseas with this team, right?

• 25:36Speaker 04

  Say that one more time.

• 25:37Jack Murphy?

  That as, as all this, you know, this waiver submission is going through the process, you're also getting ready to deploy a second time with the team.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. So, so we came back, we went out for eight months, came back for six months, because first group replaced us. And then we, but we knew before we went on this first deployment, we were doing back to back deployments. So we had six months in between and two months prior to. So one, I did a second waiver, thinking that I, if I had stronger recommendations, that, that they would prove it. But that was, that was not to be the case. And then, but during that training, I went to what was called Prometheus Group at the time, because it was, it was done by the Prometheus Group Company, but it was a pilot course, which would later become the advanced SOCOM, advanced, SOCOM's advanced GSM second course,

• 26:28Speaker 04

  but was the pilot course for it. And during that training, that training was run by both green and orange operators and support personnel.

• 26:40Speaker 04

  And the course director was a former TFO Command Sergeant Major of a squadron. And at the end of those eight weeks, he pulled me aside on the last day where they're giving out the certifications, and he told me that he had heard about the issues of, you know, my waivers, how I couldn't get to SFAS. And he was like, hey, we, we, we've been really impressed with you. We think that you have what it takes. And, you know, he made the joke of, why should you skip JV and come straight to varsity? So, and he was like, you know, would you want to be an operator, right? And I, I was like, yes, that's exactly what I'm gonna do. He's like, all right, here's the, here's the recruiting information

• 27:23Speaker 04

  for, at that time, the, for the recruiters that were doing operators. I believe they were separate at the time. And so I went and on the second deployment, I, that's when I started filling out this ridiculous 40-page application and submitted it, I think, right, I finished it like right towards the end of the deployment. And, yeah, in that packet, you're told, and you're actually told by the recruiter, to, you can reveal everything, and they won't have any sort of ramifications. And at this time, this, this ended up being true for me, because that's when I actually revealed that I had had some issues, and

• 28:04Speaker 04

  the stuff that I had sort of hidden from the Army, and that I wasn't this saint. But apparently that worked, because they approved my packet.

• 28:14Jack Murphy?

  Ah, great.

• 28:15Speaker 04

  And I went to selection the following April, or ISA Operator Selection.

• 28:25Jack Murphy?

  Before we jump into that, I just want to ask you, where was it that you deployed with this ODA? If there's any interesting stories from that time that you'd like to tell?

• 28:35Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely. So both deployments were actually in the Diala province of Iraq, which is, it's like, it's like east of Baghdad, but it's along the Iranian border. So you're really kind of on the edge of the world, uh, because there were no team houses east of us. It was us and then the Iranian border. Um, but the second deployment was awesome for me because, uh, Boomer decided that he wanted to be on his team to just be an extension of his team. And he told the battalion commander, I want Joe and only, and if he's like, if you send the entire Saudi team, I don't want any of them, right? And the battalion commander was like, all right, cool.

• 29:20Speaker 04

  You get just Joe and I got to be, uh, the sole attachment to that team. And Boomer was awesome. The team was awesome and they, they, they never treated me like a support personnel. Like I almost felt like I was like, like 18 OJT, uh, you know, it was an amazing deployment. I was an extension of that team. And to be honest, Boomer, even at like certain times, he even treated me as like one of the seniors, which I absolutely love and I will be grateful, but to this day, because it was probably one of my favorite deployments I ever had in my career.

• 29:52Jack Murphy?

  That's awesome. And so moving forward, we get into, uh, selection. I know there's some parts of it that they try to keep on the down low, but what are you allowed to say about the selection course?

• 30:06Speaker 04

  You know, it's, it's very, so let's just say ISA selection was like in a lot of things, like when they were created, right? They caught, they cloned a lot of things from Delta and they changed certain things, right? Like I would say that CAG is probably a slightly more physical. Uh, ours is probably like more of a mental, you know, thing, but like you probably heard the difference between the rock and the wall. A very movement, but it's not the quite the forty miles. It's slightly shorter than that. Uh, but it was, so I think it was like, it's usually between four and five weeks.

• 30:46Speaker 04

  And it was the hardest part about like that style of selection is it's you. You don't have any negative or positive um reinforcement, like nobody yells at you the entire time. And almost everything minus like, like a few days, everything is individual. So. What I found was that especially from a psychological standpoint of view, this was the hardest type of selection. The hardest type of selection you could go into because when you're getting yelled at and people are telling you to quit. And you've got your buddies next to you, you kind of kind of sort of band on to each other and be like, you know what, F you, I'm not, I'm not going to quit, right?

• 31:29Speaker 04

  But in this environment, one, you're only given instructions once. And they do it completely stoic, right? Like they just say, you know, they give you um. The instructions, you're you're basically giving the instructions once. And then they tell you to go to do the best as you can as fast as you can. They don't tell your times, they don't tell you if you've passed. The only reason you even know if you fail is like every day when you muster for an event. They tell you to get in these individual trucks and then you quickly learn as people start getting kicked out. That if you ever get in a truck by yourself, it's not good, right? So uh, but, but because you don't, you're you're, you really have to have this level of mental fortitude. Because nobody's telling you if you're doing well.

• 32:14Speaker 04

  Nobody's telling you if you're you're sucking, you just have to believe in yourself and you just concentrate on the event. And then just concentrate on the event in front of you. Don't think about like, oh, we're two, week, three, because you you have no idea when this is going to stop. Like everything, every portion of the selection. You have no idea when it's going to end and when it does, it's this huge surprise. And then you're on to the next portion, which is you had like, it it goes places that you never thought selections would go to. Like it is probably one of, I would say it's a more unique selection than CAGS is.

• 32:48Jack Murphy?

  Because they sort of like test you on some of the skills that they'd like. Operators in the unit to have, right? To see how you respond under stress.

• 32:58Speaker 04

  Yes, yeah. I think the logical model. But they also want to implement. That you. And that unit, right? Like that more kind of like operative type of, you know, job. So there's like things within it that are more centered towards that. Um, and we have, I'm pretty like intimate knowledge because like of the difference between hours and cags because later in OTC, we actually do our tactical portion of OTC at Camp Dawson. And we run the same lanes, but luckily not as selection. Like we're actually doing a training, which later on I thought I was good at land nav until I went to that place.

• 33:45Jack Murphy?

  Um, so you make it through selection. I mean, that must have been a big relief to get, go through the board and all that other stuff and finally get picked up.

• 33:54Speaker 04

  Yes. The, the board is the hardest part of selection, in my personal opinion.

• 34:00Jack Murphy?

  Because.

• 34:01Speaker 04

  Traumatic, I would almost say.

• 34:02Jack Murphy?

  Because they dig into every aspect of your life and pick it apart.

• 34:07Speaker 04

  Uh, I would say, what I would say is you are presented with no win situations. And it is how you deal with no win situations. It is, it is a hostile board.

• 34:24Speaker 04

  Like when I, when I finished, when I got out of the board and I went into the waiting room while they deliberated, um, I, I, I knew I'd failed. I knew I was done. Like there was no way. I went into this little, this room, looked kind of like a boiler room and I banged my head against this brick wall and I kept saying like, you're an idiot. You're an idiot. Like, how could you screw that up? But I walked back in there and they're like, we'd like to invite you to the next phase of training.

• 34:47Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 34:50Speaker 04

  That came as a surprise.

• 34:51Jack Murphy?

  And the, the next phase was the free fall course?

• 34:57Jack Murphy?

  The, the next phase was the free fall course?

• 35:01Speaker 04

  So you, no, that actually happened after OTC. So

• 35:05Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 35:05Speaker 04

  Our OTC is a little bit longer. It's just shy of a year. Uh, I think it's like 10, like 11 months. And once we, we finish OTC, then your, all the operators get, get to eventually go to free fall. And then soon as you get there, it's an OML. Like obviously the people who've been there the longest, but the one exception is the tactical detachment. And, uh, and most people don't get to go to the tactical detachment until they've been usually about average of like three years. Like you have to, you already have to be basically senior operative status.

• 35:45Speaker 04

  And mainly, I think maybe the size, maybe the way I look, you know, I don't quite fit in a lot of places, but I, I was made as an exception. And within less than a year, I, well, I knew coming out of OTC that they were going to put me sort of in the express lane to go to the tactical detachment. And I ended up probably six to nine months after I finished OTC, I was officially in there. And then I got put to the top of the OML for free fall school. So within a year I was in free fall basic course. And within a year of that, I did free fall jump master down at Dep Crew in Virginia Beach.

• 36:26Jack Murphy?

  This time of year, the pace doesn't slow down, but you still need to. The calendar's packed, the weather's changing, and your body's reminding you that it's time to rest and reset. That's where Ghostbed can help. It's a family run company founded by a team with over 20 years of mattress making expertise. They've spent decades perfecting how to build a bed that's durable, comfortable, and engineered to help you recover. Every Ghostbed mattress is made with premium materials, proven cooling technology, and their exclusive Pro Core Layer, a targeted support system that reinforces the center of the mattress where your body is the heaviest. It helps to keep your spine aligned and your back supported, so you wake up ready to take on what's next.

• 37:11Jack Murphy?

  And Ghostbed's cooling materials don't just keep you from overheating, they help regulate your temperature year round. Each mattress comes with a 101 night sleep trial and a 20 to 25 year warranty, plus fast, free shipping. Most orders arrive in two to five days, so better rest is just around the corner. Right now, during Ghostbed's holiday sale, you can get 25% off sitewide for a limited time. Just go to ghostbed.com/ house and use the promo code HOUSE at checkout. That's ghostbed.com/ house, promo code HOUSE. Upgrade your sleep with Ghostbed, the makers of the coolest beds in the world. Some exclusions

• 37:54Jack Murphy?

  apply, see site for details. And thank you Ghostbed for sponsoring the show. Please check out the link down in the description and support our sponsor.

• 38:05Jack Murphy?

  That's awesome. And especially, I mean, as a signals guy, to have all those opportunities is really unique and really cool, I think.

• 38:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. And one of the things that I really enjoyed about this particularly is just because a part of that job is you actually, because I say kind of does its own thing with its own operations, everything like that, but the tactile attachment actually supports blue and green. So we actually were like on the jort cycle. And so I actually got to spend quite a bit of time with both green and blue, which, you know, I felt like I had a unique perspective because I kind of got to see inside all three of these units,

• 38:56Speaker 04

  both orange, blue, and green. And you get to see the cultural differences, which are, you know, pretty, pretty shocking, I think, especially with how the difference between how blue and green treats their support personnel, that's kind of a huge difference.

• 39:10Jack Murphy?

  I've heard that, that green loves their support guys and blue hates them.

• 39:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. I, it was explained to me in a very, a very good way. Green sees their, sees their support people as that like they can't do their job without their support guys. Blue sees their support guys as they're in their way.

• 39:33Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 39:34Speaker 04

  And they have to tolerate them.

• 39:37Speaker 04

  And it's so and one of the the biggest I'll give you so at some point they made a mandatory for all assaulters to go to their intelligence squadron over at green.

• 39:47Jack Murphy?

  Yes.

• 39:48Speaker 04

  And because of that, like when you showed up, because when I started going, they'd already been implementing this. So when I I I'd show up and almost always we were, we would be attached to the recce teams. And but when we would be there and we would have like our various different equipment and stuff like that, we'd have assaulters who come over who just got back from the intel squadron, like, oh, dude, I use that dude, and they'd be super excited to talk to you about intel stuff, you know, here you got these like badass assaulters who like, want to get in with the intel. And let's just say that never happened at Blue.

• 40:22Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I maybe it was you that told me this, actually, but someone pointed out to me that, you know, Delta makes a point of putting operators in those intelligence positions, and they take it really seriously. Like, this is part of your career field, you're going to be really good at it. And it's resulted in, you know, the increasing capabilities, of course.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  Absolutely. So what I have found is that, you know, both assaulters at both Blue and Green, like, they are some of the most impressive individuals that I've ever met, right? And especially with like, with the mentality and the level of maturity that you find at Green, when you take these like, you know, I almost think of like, tier one assaulters is like, almost equivalent, like Olympic athletes, they are the best. They have climbed that ladder, there's nobody better, right? You take someone who already has that mentality, and then you're like, hey, here's a different job, why don't you do this, right? And these guys, because they have that mentality, they they see how intelligent, important, they go in there and they become some of the best. And then they do their

• 41:30Speaker 04

  You know, I would, you know, this might be a hot take, but like, I would actually say that the intel guys who are the assaulters at Green would probably be superior to any guy that you find at ISA.

• 41:42Jack Murphy?

  Wow. Yeah, I mean, that's pretty incredible that you'd even think that, that they must have come a far way. As far as your job, you're in the tactical squadron. How does your job differ from what you were doing previously as a SAD A?

• 41:59Speaker 04

  So, yeah, let's see how much I can, so it's, so even, even within the tactical side of things, I still did stuff outside of the tactical side of things. And if you understand that, you know, essentially, that, you know, because everybody has pretty much general knowledge that the ISA was sort of like started as like the army's version of CIA. So if you, if you can kind of think about like what the CIA does and, you know, especially when it comes to covers and clandestine work. So you have to do, you do that type of stuff. And, you

• 42:43Speaker 04

  know, learning how to, you know, be somebody else for a deployment is, that is definitely a skill that you have to learn. And I can just tell you, it's not like in the movies, you know, you have to, you know, you don't have this like team who comes up with all this stuff for you. You kind of have to make it up on the fly and you have to do your own research and, you know. So that's, that is definitely an interesting thing aside of things. And then while I was there, you know, because they have, traditionally, they

• 43:25Speaker 04

  have two main operational squadrons. You have the operations squadron and they have the second squadron. And what they quickly realized is that

• 43:36Speaker 04

  They wanted to start making full spectrum operatives, which you had human guys who could do Sigint and you could have Sigint guys doing human.

• 43:47Jack Murphy?

  Yep.

• 43:48Speaker 04

  And because we deploy in such small teams, they wanted to be able to have maximal capability in an individual. So like there started to be, um, uh, oh, definitely a crossover. Like one of my really good friends was actually the first SI guy to go to the farm.

• 44:09Jack Murphy?

  That's pretty interesting. And I mean, I think there's a couple of interesting topics around this, but one of them is, you know, you had already talked about how in Delta, some of the operators had taken very well to the intel side. I'm wondering when you tried to, or not you personally, but when the unit tried to mix human and Sigint, how did those personalities work? You know, kind of on an individual level? Like there's both the personality aspect and also just the sheer amount of information that you can hold in your head and skills that you can maintain proficiency on.

• 44:41Speaker 04

  No, that's actually a great question because I think not all Sigint guys traditionally have the personality to do human, right? I definitely think it's easier for a human guy to learn Sigint, you know? Uh, it's definitely, because it requires a certain type of personality to do human. So they were very selective on who they started to cross train, right? But the goal was to eventually cross train. And also because especially during certain times, like, uh, the unit would be more employed when it came to certain intelligence disciplines.

• 45:23Speaker 04

  And so when, let's just say that OS didn't really, the human guys weren't having much of a job and they were jealous because maybe the Sigint guys were more gainfully employed and had more missions. They were like, well, let us, uh, we'll try some of the Sigint stuff and they'll get us, get us working again. And then they kind of went back and forth and vice versa. So it was an interesting, it was interesting to see the transition within the unit and then, you know, also the unit trying to find its own identity, if you will, because they struggled with that for years and probably still struggling with it.

• 45:59Jack Murphy?

  Is that because their capabilities are duplicated in other parts of JSOC or?

• 46:06Speaker 04

  So this is my understanding and this is what I was told of what was going on. We were there. So obviously ISA was originally created to, and you obviously you read about this in Killer Elite and a couple of other books, but was to be that element of intelligence for both blue and green. And, and because we had a horrible relationship with CIA in the eighties. But eventually the CIA came around and they're like, you guys are doing good stuff. And it's kind of like our, what was the analogy I used? The estranged stepfather came home and was like, hey, do you want to, do you want to go around the world

• 46:49Speaker 04

  to Bin Laden with us? And we were like, hell yeah, dad. And so when, so there was a time where I think that, and this happened like before I got there. So I, I, I hear about this, like he's out there in 2010 and this already was like, they were still doing it when I showed up, but it was being calmed down at this point. They were transitioning away from Operation CIA. But for a good portion of the 2000s, they were running around the world with CIA, but not supporting blue and green. And that is my understanding was one of the main catalysts of why blue and green end up developing their own organic squadrons.

• 47:31Speaker 04

  So by that time that we kind of sort of ended our crusade with the agency, when we came back and we're like, hey, we're back. And they were like, now we're good, bro.

• 47:42Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 47:43Speaker 04

  We, we, we're, we're good. And then when you show up, right? And you see what they're doing, you're like, yeah, you guys are good. You're really, really not that much use for us.

• 47:54Jack Murphy?

  How do you think that bodes for the future of the unit? Do you think they're going to find their identity or their, their niche in the community?

• 48:01Speaker 04

  You know, they, around the time that I left, they were, they were definitely trying to find their specific niche, right? And I think that there were some good ideas, um, but I think that, I don't know, this is my personal opinion, when it comes to intelligence centric organizations. There is, especially when it comes to personalities, um, I find that there is,

• 48:30Speaker 04

  the personalities can be a little more toxic and probably intelligence just in general, I feel like is a catty, can be a very catty profession. And I definitely, of the three units, I definitely think that CAG is the most professional and the most mature. And I think that there were some innate personality problems within ISA, which I think is still issues. Occasionally, when I still talk to people who are still in the unit, uh, they tell me all that I, essentially I left at a very good time.

• 49:05Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, I, I think the, the difference in a lot of ways is that the intelligence business is kind of people doing their own thing, so to speak. Whereas, you know, you know, from your experience, being on an ODA or a Ranger platoon or a SEAL platoon, it's very much a team, you know, a team event that you're doing.

• 49:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. And then a lot of what they're doing is they're in like, um, you know, occasionally there's like solo missions, but they're like two, maybe three man teams, right? And you, you have quite a lot of responsibility. And there's definitely like, it is a level, it is not an easy mission, like, um, it's, you know, it's very, you know, you're out on your own, especially whatever status that you might deploy in, you know, complicates things even further. And it is definitely a very hard environment. It's definitely, it's, it is a tier one intelligence organization, right? But there are, what I found, there were some inherent problems.

• 50:07Speaker 04

  With that, and then honestly, like, you know, you look at almost every, like, for example, take INSCOM, right? You have all these intelligence overarching umbrella organizations who no longer have a job. Like, INSCOM doesn't have a job because every operational unit in the military has its own organic intelligence, right? And so ISA is sort of like the INSCOM of tier one, if you want, right? And it's still, luckily, it still does its own thing. It has its own mission, right? But the portion of where it's supported the other two has been greatly diminished.

• 50:36Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm. And you did a whole bunch of deployments with the unit. What are you able to tell us about where they sent you and what they had you doing?

• 50:46Speaker 04

  I can't really, especially based on certain missions that were in different statuses.

• 50:53Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 50:54Speaker 04

  But I would probably say that one of the things when I'm fifth group, you know, especially you're thinking about this 2007, 2009, you know, fifth group was stuck in Iraq, right? And this was, I was, I did my first deployment before the change of the SOFR agreement.

• 51:10Jack Murphy?

  Yup.

• 51:10Speaker 04

  Where you had unilateral operations. And then when we came back for the second deployment, we were doing bilateral operations, which we also needed warrants from Iraqi judges, which, you know, it took us a few months to realize that we had to go out of the tribal region because, you know, you'd submit a warrant through a judge and then suddenly you had an IED waiting for you, right? We quickly learned that we had to go out of the region away from that tribe to submit warrants for judges, actually. But it just completely slowed the tempo. And at that time, you know, we heard that, like, Afghanistan was still popping off. We were like, oh, can we go somewhere else? But we were fifth group, you know, that we owned Iraq, like, we were stuck there. So, one of the things that I wanted to do, because that second deployment, wow, was amazing because I had that great team experience with Boomer and the team, the sole attachment.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  I luckily deployments minus a single deployment was in other continents. And I actually probably spent majority of my time in Africa.

• 52:11Jack Murphy?

  Doing the tactical SIGINT side for other JSOC elements?

• 52:17Speaker 04

  To, actually did both. I did, I did both the, um, the typical job that you would think of that an ISA guy does, and I also did the tactical thing. Uh, because I was, you know, I was single, uh, didn't have any kids, wasn't married. And, uh, so anytime that there was a, a slot that opened up in another detachment, or somebody needed to be relieved for whatever American Red Cross, or somebody needed to come home for whatever reason, I was usually the go-to guy to fill in for those people. So, uh, which I, looking back in hindsight, I really liked because I went on probably more deployments and more varying different types of missions, regardless of

• 53:02Speaker 04

  what I looked like, uh, which I don't think would have happened if I, if they weren't desperate and needed somebody to replace, then I was always available when I was in non-certain aspects of the JORD cycle when I was available.

• 53:15Jack Murphy?

  From that time, are there any like stories that you're able to tell? And I understand that you need to be vague about where you were, when it happened, etc. Um, but if you could like walk us through if you have any stories you're able to tell, things that were close calls or got a little dicey?

• 53:31Speaker 04

  You know, it's really, it's really hard to go into like any of that, um, without, especially during that time because

• 53:47Speaker 04

  without, you know, it'd be really hard to really say.

• 53:55Speaker 04

  I will, I will tell you, so of everything that I did at, at the unit, my favorite thing probably still to this day is about four years after I passed election, I got to come back as cadre for selection.

• 54:11Speaker 04

  And when you get to go behind the thing and you get to be the super stoic guy who, because they do it all the time, like candidates will come up and they'll be like, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll try to ask you for, to, to reiterate the instructions and you just sit there, you know, with sunglasses on, you got your, you know, your shirt on, you just go candidate, what were your instructions? And that's all you have to say. And you get to see everything behind the scenes. Um, and, uh, that was really cool because then, because while you're there, you also, you learn, these to be, you learn the history of our selection and how it related to CAGS, how they changed things. And then you also see like, they actually had the, the reasons why they chose the psychology

• 54:54Speaker 04

  versus like how they went different than SFAS and various different things like that. But, um, no, uh, I would definitely say that the hardest part of deployments, uh, I would actually say was being in alias. And, and I will say this, like if you're, the, I would say that one of the transitions that I feel like it kind of screws with you the most is that when you come back and you've essentially been somebody else for longer than you were yourself, it kind of like messes with you a little bit. And, you know, all the times we, we always joke about it, like you'll come home

• 55:37Speaker 04

  and then you'll be with your buddies at work and then you'll go to the local food truck. And you'll be like, oh, you know, recorder and they'll be like, for who? And then you, you, you'd give out, uh, the wrong name. Because you, you'd been somebody else for so long.

• 55:50Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, it's one of these situations where you wake up in the morning and you're not sure who you are. Like, what, what, what's my name?

• 55:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. Because the, they, they teach you early on, like, the best way to do that type of stuff is you have to believe the lie.

• 56:07Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 56:07Speaker 04

  And this is in like every CIA like handbook out there, like, uh, you know, this is no secret, but like, that's definitely the most effective way. So when you go around it, you, you basically, you believe the lie. And then when you come back, it's, it's a, it's a little bit of an adjustment.

• 56:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, I can see, I mean, thankfully, I think, you know, you were single at the time, but I mean, it's especially hard on the families.

• 56:32Speaker 04

  It definitely can be.

• 56:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, and I can see why living the type of life you describe can drive people towards alcoholism, womanizing, you're out there trying to find a connection.

• 56:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:48Speaker 04

  So, yeah, and then also, you have to remember, also, another part of that is, you don't make that much money in the military, but I will tell you that tier one operators do make money, right? So like your SF guy, if I, correct me if I'm wrong, like, was it, was it special?

• 57:08Jack Murphy?

  Propay.

• 57:08Speaker 04

  Special Forces, was it hazardous duty pay?

• 57:10Jack Murphy?

  You get hazardous duty pay overseas and you get propay for being SF.

• 57:14Speaker 04

  Yep. Okay, so in the unit, as, and both blue, green and orange get this, all operators get this, so they get, they get the SF.

• 57:22Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ashkowitz, you might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 57:37Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 57:48Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 57:53Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 57:59Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan Your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 58:47Speaker 04

  SF Pay at max out, I think it's like 450. If I remember correctly, they get, you get your all your everyone's pays. You get your demo pays, everything like that. But then you get AIP, which is, is my understanding only blue, green and orange operators get this. And it's a thousand dollars a month on top of all your other special pays. And so I'm a 27 year old, you know, staff sergeant at the time, living in, you know, a metropolitan city and getting, uh, getting, getting a decent amount of BAH

• 59:31Speaker 04

  on top of all these like, because I probably had about $2,000 in special pays a month. And on top of that, my ridiculous BAH, I was a 27 year old staff sergeant making over six figures. And you cannot get that type of money in my, in, because even when I went to aviation, I, I took a huge pay cut and I was a warrant officer, you know? So there's the money because you really can't, you can't replicate that anywhere else in the military. Not even like, not even fighter pilots in the air force, whatever, get that level of money.

• 1:00:06Speaker 04

  And then you, you can't recreate this job in the civilian world. Like it's very hard. Like you can go to ground branch. Because that's where most of the guys go is they, they eventually go to ground branch. Like especially the tactical guys in our unit, they would eventually go to ground branch. And, and then that's when I had the fateful day, I was about, I think I'd been in the unit about six years and our unit's CW5, who's this absolute legend, who was a Green Beret Ranger in the eighties, switched over, became a helicopter pilot, one six year, he was in Black Hawk Down. Anyways, this guy ended up being like the CW5 of our unit and he, he liked me. Saw him in the gym one day and he comes up to me and he's like,

• 1:00:50Speaker 04

  You know, and he was like this fifty year old, like fifty five year old man and dude had a ten pack. Like, it's just stupid, right? You know, just like, it's like, you know, I'm like, bro, just, just put it away. Like, you're like, I felt like was one of the thinnest dudes there and he would just literally put me to shame all the time. And he used to come up and he'd like fist bump you, but he'd like, he'd hit you hard with the knuckles, right? And he'd do this every single day. So I'm in the gym, about to work out. And he's like, so he's like, Joe, what's uh, what's uh, you know, what's your plan? I'm like, oh, I'm proud to do legs. And he was like, no, with life, you idiot. And I'm like, oh, you know, I'm gonna do what everybody else, because I, I've been a, I, I reached senior, senior operative status at that point for, I think it'd been like a one or two years.

• 1:01:32Speaker 04

  And like, and what everybody did was they, they, they did their like twenty, twenty, twenty five years, whatever. And then they all went to ground branch, especially the, the guys I was in the detachment with. Um, and that was, that was, that was the life, that was the dream, right? And he comes up to me and he's like, he's like, do not do that. And I'm like, why? He's like, look at all your seniors, look at your peers, all of them are divorced. None of them have, not, barely any of them have any relationship with their children. He's like, he's like, you've done this, like between group and here, he's like, you've done this, like, what, over a decade now? He's like, I can tell you, he's like, it doesn't get any better.

• 1:02:14Speaker 04

  He's like, the seniority in these jobs doesn't get you any better. He's like, the best part is the first five years. That's the sweetest part. It's new, it's everything, you get to do everything. And then once you start getting senior status, you would think that you get more freedom. No, that's the exact opposite. So, and then he being a guy who was a former Ranger Green Beret and now a pilot.

• 1:02:36Speaker 04

  He was like, if you ever wanna go to flight school, I was like, yeah, who doesn't? He's like, dude, the army will pay, like, they will, you know, you don't have to pay to get your private license. He's like, go do that. And then, you know, probably within a year of that conversation, you know, I, you know, due to some other like things that went on in the unit that I did, that I saw that I didn't like, I was like, I'm out. You know, I put in my like, I was at the forty one eighty seven, I, uh, and I applied for flight school, warrant and then, uh, you know, I had to put in an age and time and service waiver and to be the oldest person to flight school, which the first sergeant down there was really happy to tell me. You know, he's like, you're the old man now.

• 1:03:18Jack Murphy?

  That was, uh, yeah, that was some really sage advice that you got from your salty warrant there, but you know, he, he wasn't wrong.

• 1:03:26Speaker 04

  No, he wasn't. Uh, and actually his helicopter is actually, if you usually go to the RV aviation museum, is the, is the actual helicopter in there and has his name on it.

• 1:03:36Jack Murphy?

  Holy shit.

• 1:03:38Speaker 04

  Like this, this guy, this guy is a legend.

• 1:03:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, did it all.

• 1:03:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, this guy, still a legend to this day.

• 1:03:44Jack Murphy?

  Okay, so you go to, um, flight school and sort of first off, like, what's your objective in going to flight school? What, what, uh, airframe do you want to be on? What, what are sort of your goals here going into it?

• 1:03:55Speaker 04

  So at this time, it was my understanding. So it was interesting. So when you go there, when you go to flight school, and if you either come from Ranger Bat, you come from group, or you come from the tier one units, you are, when you finish flight school, you are going to be allowed the option to go straight to one sixtieth. They only give this option for framer, for former Ranger, you know, whatever, or the tier one guys, right? And I was told by the two CW fives,

• 1:04:30Speaker 04

  both of them who helped me write, who, who, uh, did my letters of recommendation. They were like, whatever you do, when they give you this option, say no. Do not go to one sixtieth straight out of flight school. And both of these guys were former one sixtieth guys. And they told me, they're like, hey, it's a doggy dog world. Um, he's like, you, when you go to flight school, they teach you enough to not crash. He's like, all this other stuff, like learning how to, you know, to launch guys, do airborne operations, fast roping, spies fries. When you show up for one sixtieth, they expect you to know it already. And gradually, you're making an exception, but that learning curve is so short, it is like, it adds a level of stress to your flying that you don't think you need.

• 1:05:11Speaker 04

  And when I show up to flight school, there's only one other soft guy there. There's another green, there's a green beret there. And we actually instantly become friends, right? And we're sitting there like one of the first days and I tell him what my CW five told me. He's like, dude, my CW five told me the exact same thing. Who his C two B five was also a one sixtieth guy. So it quickly became this thing, but while I was there, you know, if if you're familiar, you know, like one sixtieth has sort of become like, you know, like the tier two aviation unit sort of, right? Because like, what does green do? Right? They needed, they needed capability. They, there was a time when, you know, I think one sixty was was their operations were getting too slow.

• 1:05:56Speaker 04

  Because they they still had this bureaucratic, you know, they're still in the army, right? And you had officers who would come along and just their their their speed of doing operations were not fast enough. So what did green do? They end up developing their own aviation wing. And that aviation wing got so successful that it became its own separate unit. And I believe the colloquial term is the uh, uh, the Northern Virginia Boys. I believe is that.

• 1:06:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, the the dev, the dev group one I've heard referred to as T W A, teeny weeny airlines.

• 1:06:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So, so obviously, knowing this and actually getting to work with them while I was at the unit. That was like, became my goal because I, but I knew that they they weren't, they were obviously not going to upset me right away, nor nor did I want to. So the goal was to get there and do my, go to my first unit, get my couple of years in. And then go and then apply for the Virginia Boys. And while I was there, one of my, well, so I did the basic course in the U H seventy two Lakota. And one of my contracting instructors, um, we quickly learned where I was from.

• 1:07:17Speaker 04

  And he let me know that he, this was a side job for him, but he's actually from the Virginia Boys. And he told me, and I was, we had a good conversation and I was like, okay, what's the fastest way I can get there? Right? He's like, Blackhawks. He's like, if you do Apaches, because they're such a shortage of Apaches, at least this is what he said at the time, was that you will have to do an additional year or two as an Apache pilot before they'll even allow you to take the application. If you do Blackhawks, that's the quickest way that you can get there.

• 1:07:54Speaker 04

  So that was the reason why. So when I got to my wish list after graduating the basic course, that is why I put it on my, the top of my wish list was Blackhawks.

• 1:08:04Jack Murphy?

  Cool.

• 1:08:05Speaker 04

  So.

• 1:08:07Jack Murphy?

  So then you had to go off to UH60 school?

• 1:08:11Speaker 04

  Yes, went off to UH60 school. And it's funny because you hear, there is, like with any unit, you hear generalizations about like what the Apache instructors are like, what the Blackhawk instructors are like. And you, for whatever reason, you keep hearing these horror stories about the Apache instructors, right? Which end up being quite the opposite. Because you, I find out when you get to the, the Blackhawk portion, that the Blackhawk instructors are like the worst. Like the Apache guys are actually the coolest. The Chinook guys are, if not as cool as Apache guys, even cooler, right? But I think one of the

• 1:08:51Speaker 04

  reasons why the Blackhawk guys are so bitter is because they don't do anything, like their airframe doesn't do anything well. And they're like the jack of all trades. But since we've been in Afghanistan, as you know, in Afghanistan, they don't have the power to do successful operations. That's why basically only Chinooks do anything. So as a unit commander, what are you going to do? Because at that, at that altitude, you can get like maybe three, four guys with combat equipment on your, on your Blackhawk. So what are you going to request? You're going to request like 20 Blackhawks? Or like one or two Chinooks? Like, it doesn't make any sense. So, so I feel like there was a, these guys had a, a bit of a. You know, some of them literally had a Napoleon complex.

• 1:09:37Speaker 04

  But yeah, some of them had like this like, oh, we need to prove ourselves. It's just this negative attitude. And we quickly learned that the instructors in the Black Hawk course were definitely the most difficult.

• 1:09:49Jack Murphy?

  And as you're going through the course, it sounds like you started having some family tragedy also, right?

• 1:09:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, so my father at this point was had cancer. But then my my sister-in-law who helped raise me, because my mother died when I was 15. She actually left college, her and my brother, came home and helped raise me. So like, she's my sister-in-law, but I always consider her my sister because she helped raise me. And she died suddenly. And unfortunately, in the exact same way that my mother did when I was 15. And so I went home on emergency leave to be there for everything and the funeral. And then within a year, my father died. So and I was already having issues with the current flight instructor,

• 1:10:41Speaker 04

  who was the flight lead of my Black Hawk flight. And so I used this as a time to roll out of that class and take care of family stuff. And then when I got put back in the course, I randomly got put back into his flight. And within a week or two, I got had some issues with being accused of parking. Created other issues within flight school. And then in combination of my family and a financial situation that was going on with all my real estate investment properties because of COVID.

• 1:11:21Speaker 04

  That's probably when I hit rock bottom and hit a level, been depressed in my first time in my life.

• 1:11:29Jack Murphy?

  And we'll talk about this in a bit, but you know, your YouTube channel, you talk a lot about overcoming some of these mental health issues. What was it you were experiencing at that time and how did you overcome it? Because I mean, what you're describing, it's not nothing. I mean, this is something that would take the wing, the air out of anyone's wings, I think.

• 1:11:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, that's a great question because this actually ends up being like one of the things that I tell people, especially when they're starting to leave the military, is what I didn't realize at the time, but I learned quickly, is that I had tied my identity to these aspects of my life, to my real estate investment, to my success within the military. Because at this point, I'd never failed anything. Obviously, you know, not passing waivers, I didn't really, you know, consider that as failing, right? Every time that someone had given me the shot, I passed it, right? And in flight school, I had never, at this point, never failed a test. Technically, I did fail one flight test

• 1:12:33Speaker 04

  in the UH-72 Lakota, but that's only because I fell asleep in the back. The instructor was not happy about it. So I failed, he failed me even though I passed the flight portion, so I had to retake the assessment. That's neither here nor there. So, and then now, so between my financial, my professional, I, all these things that I had tied my identity, that I was successful, were failing. And I had no idea how to deal with failure. And I shut down completely. I didn't talk to anybody because I was ashamed. I was these things. I projected all these things. This is who I was, and now it's no longer this. How could I talk to anybody?

• 1:13:16Speaker 04

  And it wasn't until I finally, you know,

• 1:13:23Speaker 04

  um, because I, you know, I don't know if you want me to go into the details about the plan that I made.

• 1:13:28Jack Murphy?

  It's up to you. But whatever you're comfortable with.

• 1:13:30Speaker 04

  So, yeah, so I got a problem, because I've already talked about this in my YouTube channel. So I hit rock bottom, and I made a plan to commit suicide. Right? And I made a plan, I planned to do it after my best friend's wedding, who I was strangely enough, I was a bridesmaid for her wedding. And the main reason why I didn't do it was actually because of my dog. Because later on, I would obviously realize that, you know, Taking your own life is one of the selfish things you can do because, you know, you think you're fixing your problems, but you're causing trauma.

• 1:14:07Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:14:07Speaker 04

  To anybody who's ever loved you, right? And that, well, that's just horrible, right? But this dog, who I'd wrest you from the streets of Baltimore, she had nobody else in her life. You know, who was I to like leave her in this world when she had nobody? Who, who would she go to? Right? And so her was the main reason I didn't do it. And, and then every day I was just like, I made a choice. I was like, which I'm just gonna do one thing. It's gonna make my life better today. And then eventually I got out of it. And then you, I think what I didn't know, because man, well, I guess one of the reasons why this was so hard for me, I had never been depressed in my life. I always had a sunny disposition because I'd never experienced this. I didn't know what to do.

• 1:14:51Speaker 04

  And finally I started reaching out to people. I started talking to people and realized that it was okay to have done this, right? Obviously it was, you know, mainly because I didn't follow through with it. And so every day by day I did something to make my life better. And then what you quickly realize and eventually, you know, when you pull yourself out of this thing, it's sort of, I feel like it rewires your brain chemically a little bit. And you, it's, it's like this, this shadow that's always behind you. You're always going, that depression is always lingering there. But it's how you perceive it. It's how you deal with it, you know? You understand that, that like, that's not an option.

• 1:15:35Speaker 04

  And you, you're never going to allow yourself to do that, but like, it's there. You, it, it, you're lying if it's not like, and then there's like the sadness that you go through. And for me, I, I frame it as this is the story that I one day will tell, right? If I was ever to write, if someone was ever writing a book or movie about my life, which I don't think I'd ever do, I'm not that cool. But if they did, what, what would the viewers at the screen be yelling? What would the people in the, in the movie theater be yelling at the screen right now for me to do, right? And when you think about that your success is built on failures, that was just this giant failure that would become

• 1:16:16Speaker 04

  one of the greatest triumphs I believe in my life to get over that particular period of my life. So to the point where I'm actually, it is one of the best things that ever happened to me. Because it has turned me into the person that I am today. And I am so, if later on, when we talk about the investigation, if that investigation had happened five years prior, I don't know how I would have dealt with it. But because this had already happened, my level of don't give a fuck factor was so high that I just didn't care that every, to me, every day after that were bonus days, right? I'm just happy to be alive.

• 1:16:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you, you emerged stronger after the fact.

• 1:17:01Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 1:17:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Um, and, and so you're kind of trying to beat this thing. At the same time, how, how are you kind of like wrapping up flight school? And are you getting assigned to a unit?

• 1:17:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, so basically I had to go through this whole process of, you know, uh, I had to write letters to Congress and all these different things. And, you know, the whole thing was a shit show, but eventually I was able to get out of there. And then I got DCS to Washington DC or to the Washington DC area. And at this point, I was, because of the things that happened at flight school, I was done with the military. So I was like, I'm just going to ride out the rest of my career. Like, because like now the concept of like, you know, doing anything else after that, I was like, I'm done.

• 1:17:57Speaker 04

  So, and then about six months prior, that's when I started the YouTube channel.

• 1:18:04Jack Murphy?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:04Speaker 04

  Uh, because I was like, this is my purpose. Like this is the one of the things that I wanted to do.

• 1:18:08Jack Murphy?

  And it was something outside of the military too, right? It was something you were doing on your own.

• 1:18:14Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah. And so, and because, well, I guess one of the catalysts when I wanted to do this was because I've obviously experienced toxic leadership, uh, especially, which I never thought I would, especially in ISA. Like there was some, definitely some very toxic leaders. It obviously doesn't happen as much, but I feel like when it does, it's very potent. Like it was the, the few individuals that were, it was really bad. And I wanted to make videos about toxic leadership, but like to tell, teach people what real leadership actually looks like. Because I feel like a lot of people actually don't know what real leadership looks like. So that became one of the reasons. And then now that I had this.

• 1:18:58Speaker 04

  This where I was able to get past taking my own life. And I was on this like journey of like, you know, I got into Buddhism, Stoicism and all these different things. And I really kind of like went on this like spiritual journey to like find, you know, to understand my place in this universe. And what I eventually got to, I was like, I think that I have this innate ability to be able to break things down to retard level because I am, you know, kind of a retard myself. Because I have to break everything down to layman's terms. I got, I got stories from free ball school when it came to learning how to do poised exits. They literally had to break it down to retard level for me.

• 1:19:40Speaker 04

  And then I'm not afraid to talk about the things that, you know, guys don't want to talk about, especially in these hyper masculine communities. So I felt like that was my thing. So I, I started this channel. And that's what I started originally talking about was the, was the, the, the mental health stuff. I was talking about fitness, Stoicism, you know, that's why I call it the Stowing Viking. And, and then, but people were then asking me, because I, I had pictures up of like my time at fifth group, a time of flight school, and then like time like ISA or whatever. Or like the few photos that I did, because I don't really have many photos from that time for obvious reasons. And people started asking questions like, why did you leave? Right?

• 1:20:25Speaker 04

  So, and I never said which unit I was from. And so I was like, okay, I, I see this as a teaching lesson, right? Because so I phrased it. So I told the story of why I left. And the reason why I left is because, you know, I saw that there was no, there was no future down that route, at least not for 20, 30 years, right? And the moral of the story was you can do anything amazing, right? But you don't need to sacrifice your entire personal life for the rest of your life because of it. Right? And if you really think about it, and this is the advice that I tell everybody, know what you want in the military.

• 1:21:06Speaker 04

  Go get it, do it for five years and then leave and take that experience to the civilian world because they will reward you. You know? For in many different ways and you also have the freedom to like quit. Like that's, that's an amazing power which you don't get in the military, right? So I made this video and it, it, it, at that point, I think my videos had maybe 500,000 views. This thing within like two days was like 100,000 views. And, and I started making more videos and people liked it and people were asking about selection. So I, I kind of made a video selection about, you know, how the differences between tier two and tier one selections.

• 1:21:45Speaker 04

  Advice of how to pass tier two and tier one, never gave any operational details, never gave away any secrets. Never still named, never named the unit, but people in the comments were starting to guess. Yeah. You know, they hear tier one unit. They know, they know. I'm like, look, bro, like, I, I wish, but uh, no, that's not the, that's not the one I went. So I started to imply through the comments that I was from a different one, right? So everything's fine. The channel's starting to get big, you know, I get Barbell Apparel reaching out to me, wanting to be a sponsor. You know, which was cool because I've already been wearing these guys' clothes. And, and right around that time, I get this ominous phone call from my command and they're like,

• 1:22:30Speaker 04

  uh, hey, we need you to come into work immediately and come see the commander. And anybody who's been in the military knows that is not a good sign. They, that never results in anything good. Uh, that's always bad. So I show up and they whisk me directly into this conference room. And, uh, you know, my company commander, she's, you know, she's, you know, been in the army for a couple of years. And she's obviously really worried and I've only ever seen a smile on this woman's face. I'm like, ma'am, you okay? She's like, oh, you know, like, I don't do it. She wouldn't really, she couldn't tell me what was going on. So they slide this piece of paper in front of me and it says that I am being investigated by the Army Criminal Investigation Division for the poss, for the possible disclosure unclassified or of classified information.

• 1:23:20Jack Murphy?

  And I think you've probably, you're probably aware of this, Joe, but there's sort of a larger context happening in the special operations community going after all kinds of veterans who have spoken on podcasts or spoken in interviews or whatever the case may be. About a year and a half ago, Delta sent out a letter to all of their members.

• 1:23:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Jack Murphy?

  And the letter, you know, it's kind of starts off where it's like, you know, warning people, you know, be careful about not disclosing classified information, which I think that's within their wheelhouse, right? Nothing wrong with saying that. But then, they ask veterans of the unit to socially shame other veterans of the unit that speak out in ways that they find inappropriate. And that is completely beyond the purview of some commander at some unit at Fort Bragg to try to suppress the First Amendment rights of private citizens out there in America. And I just had another friend, he worked for a, one of the JSOC support units.

• 1:24:28Jack Murphy?

  And they came after him this last week because of an interview he did with us about a year ago. And there's nothing they can do, as we'll talk about with your case, there's nothing they can really do to him because he didn't say anything wrong. He did not divulge classified information. But what they will do is try to socially shame you within the community.

• 1:24:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, yeah, and I had already started to see this even prior because I think I saw Sean Ryan talking about it, you know, doing these interviews and then suddenly, you know, they're like, oh, you have to take our videos down. And, you know, as Sean Ryan said, it's like, you know, you can't, like, you're allowed to talk about your lives. Obviously, I don't give any operational details. So, and one of the reasons that I chose the path of my channel anyways, which was one, not to be about operational details, and I wanted to be about Stoicism, philosophy, life lessons, talking about the hard truths in these, you know, suicide, mental health, because especially when I was, when I was in the unit, even when I was in aviation.

• 1:25:32Speaker 04

  If you went to mental health, that was the end of your career, right? You couldn't go. It wasn't until like a couple of years later, like towards the end of my career, that it was okay to go to mental health. So that's what I want to talk about. And I never wanted to be about the unit because like, one, I don't think I'm that cool anyways. And two, like, what am I gonna talk about anyways? No, I was like, no, we're good. So, yeah, so the intent of the channel was, uh, you know, not to be about the operational details, you know, because one, I don't think I'm that cool anyways. And then two, like, what are you actually gonna talk about? Like, it's just, it's such a murky road. Didn't want to do any of that type of stuff. And so the focus of the channel was, you know, obviously on the philosophy,

• 1:26:13Speaker 04

  the Stoicism, you know, making the, the mental health, especially because, you know, when I was in the unit and aviation, if you went to mental health, that was a death sentence. Like, your career was over. And luckily, in the last couple of years, right before I retired, it definitely shifted that that be okay. But it definitely, like, we had a guy in, while I was in flight school, who went to mental health. He was, he was kicked out within a week.

• 1:26:38Jack Murphy?

  Jeez.

• 1:26:39Speaker 04

  Um, and obviously in the unit, you definitely couldn't go to mental health. Like, that was, that was a death sentence, a death sentence. So, but, you know, I did my due diligence and I researched all the stuff. And whether the unit likes it or not, there's plenty of books, which I also have a funny story because I actually showed up to ISA selection. Because at this time in 2010, I think the only book at that time was Killer Elite.

• 1:27:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:03Speaker 04

  And, and you have to remember, this is 2002, 2009, 2010, right? And what, there was very little known about the unit, right? So I'll quickly go into this real quick because I think it's a little, it might be a little pertinent, is at that time, it was like whispers of what orange and green were. Like, everybody knew what green was, but they're like, what is orange? And the thing that I was told by a Green Beret in the company I was in, and because he was interested to go to like, orange, actually. He was like, if you want to be John Rambo, you go to green. If you want to be James Bond, you go to orange, right? And obviously, that's, could not be farther. Like, that was such a disappointment. But, you know, there, this, it is to a truth. There is some truth to it, that type of job, but.

• 1:27:47Speaker 04

  When I shoot, but when you're applying, right, the nowhere did they actually say the name of the unit, right? So you're applying, so you think you're applying for this job. So I show up to this selection and I'm still not a hundred percent sure. Unit I'm trying out for, so I bring two books. I bring the book Killer Elite and I bring the book, uh, The Mission of the Men in Me by Pete Labor, which was always one of my favorite books. And I, I like how he taught life lessons in that book, which is sort of one of those things that modeled how I did my channel. So the first week that you do everything, it's a selection before you go off to the actual real selection is all like PT test, interview, CI, and you're sitting down, you're doing polygraphs, all this and stuff.

• 1:28:31Speaker 04

  I get called into one of my CI interviews one day and, uh, he's like, hey, you know, uh, you like to read? And I was like, yeah, I like to read. He's like, did you bring any books with you? I was like, yeah, I brought some books. He's like, cool, cool. Uh, what books did you bring? I was like, ah, you know, like, you know, Mission of the Men in Me and some other books. And he's like, what other book? And I'm like, I remember having a conversation like an hour prior with some other dude who was in there. You're talking about how like Killer Elite was like, you know, possibly about this unit. And so he's like, you know, I was like, oh, I've been reading this book Killer Elite. And he's like, what is that book about? I was like, well, supposedly it's about this unit, right?

• 1:29:13Speaker 04

  And he's like, well, do you think that's a good idea to read this? And then that immediately piqued my interest is like, why does he not want me to know? So I leaned in and I was like, should I not be reading this book? Like, is there a reason? And he just like looks at me coldly and he's like, you should not be reading that book while you're here. So I get out of that interview. Oh no, the last thing I say is like, well, wouldn't you want to know as much about? Right. The unit that you're supposedly checking? And he, and he looks at me coldly again, he goes, Just don't read that book while you're here. So I immediately went straight to my bunk and I was like halfway through it. And I've never read a book so fast in my entire life. And I, when I was done, I slammed it down and I was like, I've never been so disappointed in my life.

• 1:29:57Speaker 04

  There was nothing about selection. It was like the driest book that I've ever fucking read. And there was nothing in there, right? But they made this whole thing. So going back to, I did all this research. I made sure that everything that I would possibly talk about was already publicly available information. And I made very careful that I, I did imply any names. I used the most outed names within the unit, which was ISA and TFO.

• 1:30:28Speaker 04

  But, um, you know, apparently they're not on the same page of believing that that's okay to talk about.

• 1:30:36Jack Murphy?

  So how did this investigation against you shake out? They're, they're saying that your use of these terms is classified information that you can't reveal publicly.

• 1:30:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, so what ended up happening is, uh, you know, through, uh, unofficial, unofficial avenues. Uh, I was informed that one, my former unit was

• 1:31:05Speaker 04

  chain of, uh, leadership was in contact with my current chain of command. And it was implied to me that, uh, that me posting any sort of information, even, even remotely relating to the unit was a bad precedent. And that

• 1:31:28Speaker 04

  I

• 1:31:29Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:31:43Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:31:54Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:32:00Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:32:05Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:32:25Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:32:55Speaker 04

  They should maybe made example of that they should pursue as much as they can within their legal capabilities. And then I learned about a week later from a similar unofficial source that the shift went from, they realized that nothing I had talked about was actually directly classified. They were now trying to see if they could put sort of an aggregate of me placing unclassed

• 1:33:35Speaker 04

  sources together and then like inferring things that that would actually be, could be, they could find some sort of, you know, charge within there. But that luckily, that line of thinking did not work out for them. And ultimately, you know, I was not charged with anything. I was given, at the end of two months, I was called in and obviously there was four options that could have had to me. One, I could have been charged criminally. Two, I could have been charged under UCMJ.

• 1:34:13Speaker 04

  And then three is a GOMAR, which is a general officer memorandum of reprimand, I believe is the correct full term. And everybody who knows a GOMAR, that is essentially a strongly worded letter that goes into your permanent profile. And then, of course, nothing at all, scotch free, everybody agrees, hey, everything's good. Unfortunately, I'm not that lucky. So I show up and I receive a GOMAR. And it's a very vaguely worded letter, just basically saying that they were disappointed and I used poor judgment when posting on social media. And that's basically all it said. So you're allowed to do a rebuttal. You have seven days to do a rebuttal. But the good thing is, is when you're allowed to do a rebuttal, you are legally

• 1:34:58Speaker 04

  allowed to have all the investigative documents. So they handed me the documents. And I have to word this very carefully. When I was given the documents by a member of the staff of the brigade team, I was cautioned on of how severe my response should be, or lack thereof. And if I was to resist, that there would be consequences.

• 1:35:30Jack Murphy?

  Retaliation is, is the word they're avoiding saying.

• 1:35:34Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, yeah, there was a lot of implications within this conversation. But I knew from my unofficial source that I already knew that they were, they were, if they could throw whatever that they were trying to find, they were digging.

• 1:35:46Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:47Speaker 04

  And so I knew at this point, like, what a, what a bluff, right? And I, I told the guy who told me this, right, who was a member of the staff. And I told him very politely, I was like, if they could have, they would have. So I went home and I Googled, because so one, majority of the stuff on this document was redacted. But you, you've been in the unit long enough, you know, the terms, you can, you can tell what's under the redacted portions. And I could tell that the two things that they were upset about was the use of one... That acknowledging that I was even in the unit. Which didn't make any sort of sense because I won't go too much into it, but when you leave the unit,

• 1:36:32Speaker 04

  you're actually on your ERB, they finally put the existing acronym of the unit, right?

• 1:36:39Jack Murphy?

  And you come out, you come out of the DASR and everything else.

• 1:36:42Speaker 04

  Exactly. So you, you're, you're allowed to acknowledge that you were at an SMU, right? Obviously you don't want to go into the details and you avoid using its current name or any of the last like five or whatever, you know, so, you know, but, you know, people know enough, right? Like, like they know what's in that area. They know like, you know, what unit used to be, you know, they generally know what you're talking about. So I go and then the other thing was using the term ISA, which surprised me the most because of, if you look at how much literature there is out using the term ISA, which is obviously UNIT's official original name. So I went home and I got on Google and within two minutes,

• 1:37:23Speaker 04

  I Googled, I Googled members of ISA and the plethora of profiles that came up, one surprised me. And with the most interesting, the top of all these profiles, not only was actually a guy who was my unit commander while I was there. And actually I was, I, I did lead one mission as a, as a team leader and he was actually the unit commander while I was leading that team. So I actually had to do video chats with this guy every single week. So for that to be the guy that popped up, and then when I opened his army profile, like on, on an army official website, of all the things it could have said, right?

• 1:38:07Speaker 04

  It said not only was, did he attend ISA selection? Of all the names it could have used. It also said that he was the commander of ISA and actually right before this interview, I actually looked up and verified that it's still up. And it not only did it verify that he went to ISA selection and he was the commander of ISA, it gave the exact dates that he was, he did it. Right? So I put this all in my rebuttal.

• 1:38:34Jack Murphy?

  Why is it classified when you say it, but not classified when some officer says it?

• 1:38:37Speaker 04

  Exactly. So I have a personal theory about that. So if you notice in certain units, there is sort of a double standard.

• 1:38:47Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:48Speaker 04

  And, you know, there's various different reasons why certain people. And, you know, I think it goes back to like, you know, and for anybody who's been in the military long enough, especially in SOF, there is definitely, like, for example, when it comes to awards, right? Everybody knows that the higher rank you are, usually the higher rewards you get, you know? Like if a, if a, like an E6 was to do something that could merit a Bronze Star, he may not get it. He might get an ARCOM with a V-Device. But that major who was sitting back in the FOB, oh, he's getting a, he's getting a Bronze Star for sure, right? And so I feel like there is, one, there's like this good old boys' club, which there always has been.

• 1:39:28Speaker 04

  And then it's a combination of certain level of rank that certain people get away with these things. Like, you know, there's been, I think, like, at least as my count, there's at least four books just specifically about the unit. Uh, and I actually know personally, like, two of them who wrote them. And, uh, you know, one of them is now the, uh, Director of Counterterrorism.

• 1:39:56Speaker 04

  Or was.

• 1:39:57Jack Murphy?

  You mean, uh?

• 1:39:58Speaker 04

  I don't know if he's still.

• 1:39:58Jack Murphy?

  You mean NCTC?

• 1:40:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, so definitely there was like, and I also knew in the way that I left the unit, um, I was not, there, there was definitely not the biggest, some people were not the biggest fan of me. Like, and I had this innate ability where we talked about earlier. Uh, you know, I have a face that people want to punch, apparently. And, uh, so, and I've come to terms with this, right? Like people, I rub people the wrong way for whatever reason. There's multiple different reasons. It doesn't matter. So.

• 1:40:35Speaker 04

  So I I finished this rebuttal and I sent it to my company commander and I'm proud because not only did I find this documentation, I had um uh I had all the other URLs and resources that um that I had done my due diligence before I even started the channel. So I gave all the books, all the references, everything, put it all in a rebuttal and I sent it to my company commander. And I was really proud of this. Like I, in my mind, there was no way they would keep this going.

• 1:41:13Speaker 04

  I, my company commander

• 1:41:17Speaker 04

  like, hey, did you get the rebuttal? And she was like, yes, but we need to talk about it. Because I was like really happy to hear what she thought of it. So I went in the next day, she texts me and she tells me, uh, I was like, ma'am, did you like the rebuttal? She's like, I did. I thought it was awesome. You did a great job. But the brigade commander is furious. I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, they're claiming it's spillage. I'm like, what do you mean it's spillage? She's like, because you used his name in ISA in the same email, not only are they pissed off about it, they have confiscated mine and first sergeant's computers. Because

• 1:41:57Speaker 04

  and she, she was at this point, she was completely on my side and she was just like, this whole thing is so ridiculous. And basically, it was a knee jerk reaction because they were frustrated

• 1:42:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:11Speaker 04

  with their inability to charge me.

• 1:42:13Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:14Speaker 04

  And and obviously, if it had been spillage, they would have charged me immediately. And obviously, after, other than me, my company commander telling me what happened.

• 1:42:24Jack Murphy?

  It's very, it's very hard to

• 1:42:25Speaker 04

  I never heard anything about that.

• 1:42:26Jack Murphy?

  It's very hard to charge somebody for spillage. Um, you know, if you want to explain that term to folks, I mean, that means like inadvertent disclosures, right?

• 1:42:36Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah, and because obviously you can't call it spillage when it's on an army official website. Yes, exactly. It it would have been one thing if it had not been, and then I took this information, put it together. Confirmed it. And then that's that's spillage, because then then I put two things together, which other people wouldn't. But it was on an army official website, so that's why it wasn't spillage. But they were just so upset, and they may not have known, and like may have like to them, they're like, oh, my God, you have an I this guy's naming a commander. And even though it said where I found it, they may, you know, I'll give them the benefit of doubt, because this particular company, this brigade commander was not, you know, he's not from an SMU, he may not know.

• 1:43:18Speaker 04

  But that was their knee jerk reaction, they literally confiscated, as far as I know, destroyed those computers, just because they opened the email on those computers. And, uh, yeah, so I I I left, and you know, I never heard anything else about behind that. And and then, but that was not quite the end of that, so I was given permission to start posting again. And this happened around October first, so prior to the investigation, I actually had a good relationship with the senior command at the unit. And I knew that there was a pending family financial issue that was going to come probably around November, December, and my original retirement date was November first.

• 1:44:01Speaker 04

  So I reached out to them and I was like, hey, can I extend it four months just to get on the backside of holidays? Can I go to February first? And they're like, absolutely no problem, because all it does is requires your brigade commander's decision, and everybody told me we're cool. So this happened about two weeks prior to the investigation, and then when the investigation, and when they, you know, they handed me the sheet, I was actually very confident, I actually originally laughed when they gave me the document. And my company commander was like, aren't you worried about this? I was like, no, man, I was like, like, I I I knew that there's a possibility this might happen, but I did my due diligence, I know I haven't talked about anything classically, we're good. And they tell me at that meeting that they're gonna sit on my extension until the investigation, once the investigation's done, they're cool, they'll send it up, everything's great.

• 1:44:42Speaker 04

  So the investigation finishes around around October first, and they, through multiple different people, they lead me to believe that like it's going up, it's going to get signed. It wasn't until about a week prior, because anybody who retires know that usually between your terminal leave, you usually get at least a month of like free time away from work. Right? When you retire. And I find out a week and I'm not ready to retire. I think I'm retiring March or February 1st, because I've been told multiple occasions. And they're like, oh, by the way, we're not signing your thing. You retire in a week.

• 1:45:25Jack Murphy?

  Totally nuts.

• 1:45:27Speaker 04

  And I was like, oh my God, like, you've got to be kidding me. And then I tried. And even the civilian who was actually who did my final out processing, he tried until the day of, like, he actually told them on the day I was supposed to my final out, he actually told me, he's like, and I he's told, he told my command, he's like, if you sign this this morning, he's like, I have, even though it was the government checked out, he's like, I know the guy who approves this, I'll have it approved by lunch. And he'll, and he'll, and it'll be extended to February 1st. They refused.

• 1:45:58Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 1:45:59Speaker 04

  And then my company commander, to, to her credit, she did, she's like, she told me, she's like, she called me right after I did my final out. She's like, we failed you. Well, we, what, what happened here was not right. We failed you as an organization. And she's like, it's going in my AAR or whatever her, or her command climate survey that she was going to do that year. She was reporting, whether she did or not, you know, I don't actually doubt, it doesn't matter.

• 1:46:24Jack Murphy?

  Well, it's, you know, it's big of her to at least call you and tell you that.

• 1:46:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, which I appreciate it.

• 1:46:30Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, Joe, I think we got a couple of questions from the Patreon folks for you. Um, we'll tee those up. I, I, I thought, you know, when I called you up about doing this interview, I, I mean, I think I said something like, you know, Joe, if you're not incarcerated right now, I'd, I'd love to do this interview. And if, if you are, we can do it from prison, you know, there's a possibility.

• 1:46:53Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. It would probably get better views, to be honest. It's, it's, it's kind of a shame.

• 1:46:59Jack Murphy?

  You and the, and the Hamburglar outfit with the black and white stripes.

• 1:47:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, go ahead.

• 1:47:07Jack Murphy?

  What do we got, Dee?

• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  All right. We got one from JJ. What do people get wrong about TFO?

• 1:47:15Speaker 04

  So I would say that one of the things that people is that the because obviously their original job was to support um green and blue, right? But and obviously, they they started as, you know, the army's version of CIA because mostly it was a human organization. And granted, it was, I think it was eighties when Colonel Jerry King created it. I think it was like eighty or eighty-one when he created it.

• 1:47:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:47:42Speaker 04

  And and at that time, SIGINT wasn't really much of a thing. Like SIGINT was just radios, right? And then when and then when the unit really started to like make its business, like make money, like they were the pioneers, especially like they the SIGINT crushed. And so they became this like full intelligence spectrum organization. And they became so successful, which is one of the reasons that they started doing their own operations. And now they're more of a the niche that they have tried to find is one, because green and blue really doesn't don't need them in it, that they are this like theater, this

• 1:48:23Speaker 04

  multi-theater, like world level intelligence organization, that that's what they try to be as like their own, they run their own independent operations. Uh, you know, if they can give intel back to the greater JSOC community, they can, but they are a lot, they're very independent uh nowadays.

• 1:48:42Jack Murphy?

  And I think we got one more.

• 1:48:45Speaker 04

  Yep. Uh, how have you seen the operation operational preparation of the environment change over time? I think I lost you. Oh, sorry. How have you seen operational preparation of the environment change over time? Okay, operational prep. So it has definitely changed and it has definitely changed with technology. So um and I can go further with this for a couple of different ways. So from a tactical side of things, right? Obviously. Implementing drones and other things like that and also

• 1:49:30Speaker 04

  from a force protection as our abilities to conduct force protection, like just from the SIGINT side of things, became very limited as technology increased. And our ability, like for example,

• 1:49:48Speaker 04

  I eventually in the unit, I went back to Iraq, like later on during the ISIS invasion. And it was one of the first Americans back in and

• 1:49:59Speaker 04

  what we were doing six years prior, we couldn't even do a fraction of what we were doing there. And so we had to come up. Literally, one of the things that I did is I actually ended up getting a war for this. I actually helped create a new piece of equipment that the NSA ended up manufacturing

• 1:50:20Speaker 04

  for that particular mission. So, and then the combination of us doing SIGINT and also combining clan skills and the human side of things, which then technology from an alias standpoint of view, you know, biometrics started to change things and you had ancestry.com, you had 23andMe, which are obviously explicitly told not to do for obvious reasons. And so it changed the way that we looked at the world and the way that we could do operations because it just, it wasn't the old school like eighties and nineties. We had to incorporate the technology and then everything was becoming so digital,

• 1:51:04Speaker 04

  but also in such small form factors that you couldn't even detect when people were using particular technology and you had like RFI sniffers. And then, you know, everybody's heard of a Faraday cage, right? We basically started encased, we were like Iron Man, like completely encased in Faraday cages of like everything that you could protect. And, you know, we literally had to create SOPs, which I think was one of the cool things because we were on the cutting edge of like these intelligence operations. And we did have, especially when I was there, we had such a good relationship with the agency. And one of the things that we ended up doing and why we had such a close relationship with

• 1:51:46Speaker 04

  the agency is if anybody understands the different types of authorities like Title 10, Title 40, one of the reasons we started running and gunning with them was because we fall under DoD, they don't, and in certain situations, there were loopholes where we could do things that they couldn't and vice versa. So we found that there was this tandem relationship that we could find loopholes between the two organizations. And so we actually built a really good. So I actually spent a lot of time in CISA spaces and a lot of different embassies throughout the world, which I, to be honest, those were some of, outside of the tactical stuff, some of my favorite missions.

• 1:52:30Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, ISA is an interesting unit in the sense that you guys can conduct covert operations, clandestine operations, or just normal overt military operations.

• 1:52:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:52:40Jack Murphy?

  I don't, I don't think there are too many people that can do that.

• 1:52:43Speaker 04

  No, there's not. And I think that's a, you know, one of the things that people confuse, like they think RRC and ISA are very similar organizations. And then that's like the big difference is one, you know, I don't think RRC is nearly close to the size as ISA is.

• 1:53:02Jack Murphy?

  No.

• 1:53:02Speaker 04

  And has the reach, but also the clan side of things and the covert side of things is like where we separate and we do that RRC doesn't really do that much of. And actually, I will say this, we did, I never operationally worked with RRC, but I did a number of training exercises with RRC from the tactical attachment. And I will have to say they are some of the most professional guys outside of CAG. I would say that RRC is probably one of the most professional organizations I've ever worked with.

• 1:53:36Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they're wired tight.

• 1:53:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's just something about Rangers in general that I just think like, my advice to anybody, you want to go to Delta, don't, I would say go to Ranger and then go to Delta. Like, if you want to go to SF, cool, but like, I think you learn the greatest skills that you need to go to Delta from the Ranger badge.

• 1:53:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, man. Ranger Battalion's awesome. We got one more, Dave?

• 1:54:01Speaker 02

  It's funny. It was a question about ISA and RRC interfacing and you literally just answered it.

• 1:54:07Jack Murphy?

  And he just answered it. Okay.

• 1:54:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. So we definitely interfaced on the tactical side of things, which, you know, we did, we did a number of free fall jumps together. We did a couple of different, they were all training exercises. But, uh, yeah, they are definitely a very professional organization. You know, when you operate with blue and green, look, and I don't want to throw any of it on the bus, but especially when you deal with blue, right? I will put it this way. I went to, so I got to, I, obviously I worked with them and I was on their JORD cycle, but the most, the first time I worked with them was actually in Free Fall Jump Master course. And in Free Fall Jump

• 1:54:50Speaker 04

  Master there, one, so they actually don't, uh, so both green and blue don't send their, so their SIG and guys are support guys, right? So they don't go to free, like, uh, like our SIG and guys are actual like operatives, like they're not support side, right? So that's one of the biggest differences. And when you, when you show up there, when I went to Free Fall Jump Master, obviously their, their SIG and guys never get to go to Free Fall. Um, so I'm there and the, the Free Fall course is you got the frogmen or your salters, right? And then you got your

• 1:55:25Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:55:39Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:55:50Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 1:55:56Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:56:02Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 1:56:21Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:56:52Speaker 04

  Boat guys.

• 1:56:53Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, the Swick guys.

• 1:56:53Speaker 04

  And I have never seen like two groups of people who hate each other more than frogmen and boat guys. Literally, I went there, I was the only ISA student during this course, and we brought one of my mentors, who's actually, he was an instructor, so he actually helped instruct the course. We literally just sat there and we watched these two just basically rip each other in half. Like, we're doing like JMPIs, and these guys are calling each other, like, almost going to blows on a daily basis. And dude, and the boat guys just hate, hate the frogmen. Like, that was my experience. And then the, the support guys there were

• 1:57:38Speaker 04

  just like, they lived in fear from, from their assaulters. And then you go to Green, and you're like, these dudes are my best friends. Like, they love these guys, right? So, yeah, it was very interesting.

• 1:57:50Jack Murphy?

  And then how did the RRC bros compare to that?

• 1:57:54Speaker 04

  They they were very similar to CAG, like they definitely were like, these guys are enablers, right? And especially when they started going to, especially at CAG, when they started going to the Intelligence Squadron, because you you will hear this a lot, especially from a Sigint, right? And it's it's like par for the course, especially from eighteen alphas. You'll have an eighteen alpha will come up to you and be like, hey, can you do this wizardry, right? And I'll be like, sir, that's not how RF energy works, right? You have to explain it to them. Like, that's not how any of this works, right? And then when you started having the CAG assaulters go and they start learning, you know, they they learn human, they learn Sigint, they learn

• 1:58:34Speaker 04

  everything, OSINT, you know, uh, computer stuff. And then when they start going and they go back to the teams, and now they're working along their Sigint guys, and they're like, oh, I understand how the machine works, and they understand its limitations. So their troop commanders were no longer getting these ridiculous requests, like, hey, could you hit the satellites? Beam it down, and then get, you know, all this stuff and his wife's stuff, and then, you know, get me some, you know, all these different things, like, no, sir, I can't do that. And that, you know, and so just, they just developed this really good professional relationship,

• 1:59:12Speaker 04

  and they really, they really started to, um, appreciate their support guys, and they they appreciate all their support guys. They treat them so well, like, as far as any organization I've ever seen.

• 1:59:26Jack Murphy?

  So you had a pretty wild ride there in the military, especially on the exit out. Um, now you're recently retired. Tell us a little bit about where you're at today, what you're doing, what you'd like to do in the near future.

• 1:59:40Speaker 04

  So I have a couple of different things that I'm doing. Um, so right now, uh, I I really think that my purpose is to help other people. Like, my my goal of my YouTube channel is to add value to people's lives. For example, when I released this video about this investigation,

• 2:00:01Speaker 04

  The whole final third of it is what good leadership looks like, right? Because I can sit here and complain all day about what, you know, what they did, whatever. I don't care. Like, if anything, another life lessons, another story that I get to tell. Like, these guys made me a stronger person because of it, right? And makes good content, you know, the video's not, it's not doing too shabby. So, but I would be remiss if I didn't show people what good leadership is, right? Because why do we have talk to leadership? Because those people were never showed, were never demonstrated by their leaders, what good leadership looks like, right? So every video that I make is, did I add value?

• 2:00:46Speaker 04

  That is the thing that I ask myself in every single video. Am I adding values to my life, right? And then I also, from the mentality, I stay away from how many views I get. I don't care. If someone comes back with a single comment like, hey, this helped me, that video was worth it. Like, that's all that matters to me, right? Um, and I feel like it's like my calling because, you know, I'm able to break these things down. Um, I'm a critical thinker and I, I have, I have an ability to, especially when it comes to things that are geopolitical, to look at them from a, a strict history point of view without going into the political. Like, I just released a video about understanding Somalia and I was able to do it,

• 2:01:26Speaker 04

  explain why their culture has sort of embraced, uh...

• 2:01:33Jack Murphy?

  Anarchy?

• 2:01:34Speaker 04

  Yes, and, and fraud and scam, without going into sort of a political thing, right? And, and I'm a subject matter expert, when actually, especially when it comes to Iran, and I speak Farsi, so my next video that I'm actually doing is understanding Iran, but in the same format. And almost all the comments that I got from that video was like, hey, you really broke this down. I really appreciate it. So I'm putting my full fork at, focus right now into this. I am also, at the same time, I am randomly, I am actually studying to become a private wealth advisor.

• 2:02:06Jack Murphy?

  Cool.

• 2:02:07Speaker 04

  If essentially this doesn't work out.

• 2:02:08Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, that's awesome.

• 2:02:09Speaker 04

  So I'm in the process of studying for my series sixty-six right now.

• 2:02:13Jack Murphy?

  Is that, uh, like, you manage, um, like a wealth fund for a wealthy family?

• 2:02:19Speaker 04

  Yes, so the so the difference, and I obviously I didn't know this until one of my friends got me into this, is there's when people think of like wealth advisors, right? Most people fall under what's called known as core wealth. And then private wealth, depending on the area, there's a minimum amount in an account in most places in the United States at a minimum five million dollars. But if you go to like New York, it could be like twenty, thirty million or three has to be in that account to be considered private wealth. So, but the interesting thing about it is it's because almost everybody who's in private wealth, their money has been in private wealth, like they have brokers, right?

• 2:02:58Speaker 04

  So you make money off of of like essentially annuities, like you manage their money, you get one percent, right? But these people, private wealth, these people already have wealth advisors, right? So what ends up becoming, which is the difference with core wealth, it's a sales job. So the first couple of years you join a team and then your first job is just to go get accounts. And you have to go get them from other people who already have wealth advisors. So it's a sales job and they structure it like if you do, if you end up getting a job through, let's just say you're a broker through like Morgan Stanley, they structure it that the first year they pay you a salary, but then after the second year, your salary goes away and because they want is like, so it's like a doggy dog role. I almost think of it as like, it's like the tier one of private wealth managers.

• 2:03:43Speaker 04

  Because if you don't make it, like if you if you don't have those sales skills, you're not going to make it. And so they design it to weed people out, which I find fascinating. So it's like, it's definitely the hardest of all. But if you are able to make it, every private wealth advisor that I know, and I know a bunch in Loudoun County, which is horse country out here in Virginia, which is randomly the richest country in the richest county in the United States. All the guys who are private wealth advisors have the best work-life balance ratio. These guys make money, they work like two hours a day and then all they do is whatever they want.

• 2:04:19Jack Murphy?

  It's awesome.

• 2:04:20Speaker 04

  So.

• 2:04:22Jack Murphy?

  Tell folks out there listening where they can find you on YouTube, where they can find you on social media.

• 2:04:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, so my my YouTube channel is The Stoic Viking.

• 2:04:35Speaker 04

  The Instagram, like, it's also The Stoic Viking. I think it's The Stoic Viking 2025. And so basically, that's where I push majority of content. YouTube is like my my my main goal is the long form content because there I'm allowed to. I I have the ability to talk about things in long form, which I feel like those are the issues that need to be talked about, whether it's mental health, um, uh, fitness, health, nutrition, um, just overall philosophy going into life, how to deal with the hardships of life and grief. All these different things. I want to talk about the things that nobody wants to talk about and give a guy's an avenue. And also create a community where people are positive.

• 2:05:20Speaker 04

  Like, one thing that you're never gonna see me do, I'm never gonna get involved in a vet board drama. Even if someone calls me out for claiming I did or did not something, I'm not responding. I don't care. You do you, bro. We're over here. And I and honestly, in any of my lives, if I hear anybody start talking bad about somebody else, I give them one warning. If not, they're kicked out because that's we're about positivity. If we call out a problem, we're creating a solution. We're talking about it, right? Because the only way you get rid of a problem like toxic leadership is we ourselves have to promote what good leadership looks like. Because that's the only way this ever is going to change. Is it gonna change overnight? No. But all we can do is do the right thing, be the better person. And altogether, that's how we make this this life a better world and how we found it.

• 2:06:05Jack Murphy?

  Joe, before we get going tonight, is there anything else you'd like to say? Is there any other topics we haven't covered that you'd like to hash out?

• 2:06:13Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, it's a good question. I'll probably think of something like two minutes after we we we hang up.

• 2:06:21Jack Murphy?

  It's okay. We can we can do it again sometime if you if you want. And we'll also, for our listeners, we'll have links down the description to all of Joe's social media and YouTube and all that other stuff. You'll be able to find it down there.

• 2:06:34Speaker 04

  Absolutely. And once again, I appreciate it's been an honor. And you are officially my first podcast since I started this whole thing. So I can't think of anybody better than the investigative Green Beret Ranger turned investigative journalist himself.

• 2:06:49Jack Murphy?

  No, thank you for that. I mean, likewise, we try to avoid a lot of the vet bro drama, keep it relatively positive about people's careers and relatively apolitical. And yeah, it's just not worth anyone's time really to get into all that. But again, thank you. Appreciate your time, Joe. And everyone else out there, we will see you again next time.

• 2:07:13Speaker 04

  Absolutely. Thank you again, sir.

• 2:07:15Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:07:30Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:07:41Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:07:46Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:07:52Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 2:08:12Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:08:44Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, I want to tell all of you today about a new newsletter that we're launching that encompasses both the Team House Podcast, the Eyes On Podcast, and the High Side News Outlet, which I run with Shawn Naylor. The newsletter is going to be once a week, it's going to come into your inbox, and you're going to get the most current podcasts on Eyes On and the Team House, and whatever's topical or current on the High Side. So it's another way for us to get the information out to you, as social media algorithms are pretty iffy, and you never really know what you're going to get. So this is a once-a-week email, it'll slide into your inbox, and it will have, you know, the greatest hits of that week.

• 2:09:25Speaker 02

  It's really good, man. I'm checking it out.

• 2:09:28Jack Murphy?

  The website for it is teamhospodcast.kit.com/join. Teamhospodcast.kit.com/join. Go there, and you enter into your email list, or you enter your email into the little thing on the website, and you're good to go. And that'll be it. So we really appreciate your support, and hope you'll consider signing up.

• 2:09:51Speaker 02

  Where's the link?

• 2:09:53Jack Murphy?

  The link will also be down in the description, if you're looking for it there.

• 2:09:56Speaker 02

  And that's teamhospodcast.kit, K-I-T, Kilo India Tango, dot com, backslash, join.

• 2:10:05Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the Food Allergy Podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:10:21Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to "I'm deathly allergic," in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:10:31Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, you're not alone.

• 2:10:36Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:10:43Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the Food Allergy Podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 2:11:03Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:11:38Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:11:53Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:12:04Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:12:09Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:12:15Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 2:12:35Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:13:10Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:13:25Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:13:36Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:13:41Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:13:47Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:14:07Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:14:46Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:15:00Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:15:11Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:15:16Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:15:22Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:15:42Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:16:21Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:16:35Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:16:46Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:16:51Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:16:57Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:17:17Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:17:57Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:18:12Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:18:23Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:18:28Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:18:34Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans, up to $400,000, help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:19:31Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 2:19:45Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 2:19:56Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 2:20:01Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 2:20:07Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 2:20:27Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:20:59Speaker 01

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab.

• 2:21:07Jack Murphy?

  It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens. Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported.

• 2:21:51Jack Murphy?

  Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information.

• 2:21:54Speaker 06

  Ask an allergist about Soler. This is an advertisement for Soler paid for by Genentech and Novartis. ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 2:22:26Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.