Inside the FBI Hostage Rescue Team | Kyle Vowinkel

Kyle Vowinkel looks back on a 25-year FBI career that took him from counterintelligence and SWAT in Los Angeles to the Hostage Rescue Team, JSOC deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan, and some of the Bureau’s most high-profile crisis operations. We also discuss HRT selection, the Boston Marathon bombing manhunt, the Alabama bunker hostage rescue, and the leadership lessons behind his new book, Shaping Chaos. Find Kyle here: https://www.kylevowinkel.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-vowinkel Grab Kyle's book here: https://www.kylevowinkel.com/book Today's Sponsors: GhostBed ⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 10% off! Quince⬇️ go to: https://www.quince.com/house for free shipping and 365 day returns For ad free video and audio and access to live streams... JOIN OUR PATREON! https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse To help support the show and for all bonus content including: -live shows and asking guest questions -ad free audio and video -early access to shows -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ GRAB JACK'S NEW BOOK "THE MOST DANGEROUS MAN" ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/803651/the-most-dangerous-man-by-jack-murphy/paperback/ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnGeopoliticsPod/featured Jack Murphy's book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 "Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio" 00:00 – Start 01:27 – Growing Up in San Diego & Wanting to Serve 05:38 – A Rebellious Kid Goes to West Point 07:55 – Discovering the FBI While at West Point 09:17 – Military Police, Korea & Guantanamo Bay 10:14 – Taking Back a Rioting Refugee Camp 13:17 – Learning to Lead While You’re Scared 14:35 – Leaving the Army & Applying to the FBI 18:41 – Counterintelligence & FBI SWAT in Los Angeles 21:38 – Manhunts for Cop Killers 23:31 – Working Security at the Golden Globes 26:07 – FBI SWAT Raids a Las Vegas Strip Club 28:34 – 9/11 & the FBI’s Immediate Response 30:18 – Training for FBI Hostage Rescue Team Selection 33:11 – Inside the Brutal HRT Selection Process 36:09 – Failing HRT Selection Because of His Ego 41:13 – Coming Back a Year Later & Making the Team 42:29 – The HRT New Operator Training Pipeline 45:34 – Marine Corps Scout Sniper School 47:20 – What Exactly Is the FBI Hostage Rescue Team? 50:20 – How HRT Began Working With JSOC 52:07 – The First Full FBI Embed With Task Force 275 56:17 – Going on Target in Mosul 59:03 – Capturing a Senior Al-Qaeda Leader in Tal Afar 1:05:23 – Operation Brass Balls in Ramadi 1:07:26 – HRT Operations in Afghanistan 1:09:21 – Raiding by Zodiac on the Euphrates 1:10:53 – A Deadly HRT Standoff in Puerto Rico 1:19:57 – Leaving HRT for the Crisis Negotiation Unit 1:25:56 – The Tension Between Negotiators & Tactical Teams 1:27:49 – Negotiating With Somali Pirates 1:32:56 – The Boston Marathon Bombing Manhunt 1:35:00 – Hundreds of Rounds Fired in Watertown 1:40:16 – Negotiating the Surrender of the Boston Bomber 1:47:58 – The Alabama “Bunker Boy” Hostage Crisis 1:55:07 – Discovering an IED Inside the Bunker’s Speaking Tube 2:00:40 – The Kidnapper Issues a Final Demand 2:03:42 – HRT Launches the Hostage Rescue 2:10:31 – Leaving Operations for FBI Leadership 2:14:28 – Shaping Chaos & Lessons From a 25-Year FBI Career Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:24Speaker 01

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• 0:31Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 0:38Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 0:41Speaker 04

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 0:43Speaker 05

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 0:44Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 0:47Speaker 05

  All sins swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 0:50Speaker 04

  That's one of the plagues of Bible.

• 0:51Speaker 05

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 0:54Speaker 03

  Brian Phillipich wants 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:00Speaker 06

  And it goes south from there. So HRT come, the assaulters come, vehicle right up the front, and it's a shootout. Rounds start coming both ways. We're shooting him, they're shooting.

• 1:16Speaker 06

  And we have one of our guys get shot really badly at the porch. Gets two right underneath the vest. He goes down to a knee. Same guy wit, then is right there at the window. He stands in front of the window to obscure fire, fires the guy while two other guys go grab him, move him off the porch, you know, get him around the corner, and they start providing him, you know, medical care until the ambulance can pull up. So there's a longer, like 20-minute firefight going back and forth. He then, at one point, shoves, opens the front door, shoves his wife out. And it's like, holy moly, there's another person inside.

• 1:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:00Jack Murphy?

  Hey folks, welcome to the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy, and we're very happy to have in studio our guest today, Kyle Vowinkel. He is the author of Shaping Chaos. It's a new book about leadership, but also it infuses some actual lessons from your career. He spent 25 years at the FBI, and very interestingly, served in both the hostage rescue team and the crisis negotiation unit. Probably one of the very few people that have served in both of those outfits.

• 2:29Speaker 06

  There's only been a handful of us, crazy enough to make that switch.

• 2:34Jack Murphy?

  And, you know, Kyle had, he went to West Point, spent time in the military police, then went to the FBI, HRT, JSOC deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and some other stuff. Also present for the Boston Marathon bombing aftermath, and the Alabama bunker boy rescue that HRT and CNU participated in, successfully rescuing a kidnapped kid. So there's a lot to talk about here, and thanks for being on the show, Kyle.

• 3:04Speaker 06

  No, thanks for having me. Yeah, fortunate, truly to be part of some exceptional teams that did some exceptional work.

• 3:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Well, so take us, you know, to the beginning. Tell us a little bit about like where you grew up and what kind of like interested you in at first the Army.

• 3:19Speaker 06

  I grew up in San Diego, right next to Miramar, you know, Top Gun, jets roaring overhead.

• 3:25Jack Murphy?

  Cool.

• 3:25Speaker 06

  My dad was a naval aviator in Vietnam, so very patriotic city. And I grew up in the 80s watching like Rambo, you know, Red Dawn and Rocky, you know, love those movies. So much so, my brother, he was older, like we would dress up and play Army. We went to the old, like surplus stores, bought camouflage fatigues, and imagine doing this today. Like we 14-year-old boys, wearing full camo, plastic guns, we had spray paint black so they looked real. We cam up our face and we walked down the middle of the street to the canyon. You know, four or five dudes, you know, people called the police. We'd never get out of our house doing that. So we kind of loved playing Army, if that makes sense, even though we're in a Navy town with a Navy dad, although he went to reserves after his, you know, active

• 4:09Speaker 06

  duty time, and obviously I wasn't alive when he's in Vietnam. But I grew up in that community, and my dad really modeled that service to country. But I was kind of a rebellious kid. Argued a lot with my mom. Got handcuffed twice. Got in police, gotten five car crashes.

• 4:28Jack Murphy?

  So that's your introduction to law enforcement?

• 4:29Speaker 06

  Exactly. And my dad, he had actually worked for San Diego PD for a couple of years, and crashed five of my parents' cars, and I was not a good kid.

• 4:42Jack Murphy?

  Um, so when, I mean, did the Army come about because, you know, a judge or maybe your dad were like, yeah, you're, you know, destined for military service?

• 4:54Speaker 06

  A good question. No, my, my parents definitely thought I could possibly end up in jail, because I would sneak out of the house and like, we would never do anything serious or long, but we're like snuck in the community pool and, you know, swam at like midnight on like Sunday night, again, doing no destruction. Did destroy some pumpkins one Halloween, and that was the first time I got handcuffed. You know, we took somebody's pumpkin and destroyed it, which we should have done, and, you know, a cop took me back and cuffs to my parents, and thankfully was never written up. Sorry, Mom and Dad. So that was my first time. The second time was Senior Ditch Day. You know, the cops came to Senior Ditch Day and, you know, broke it up. So I was never placed in detention, or

• 5:35Speaker 06

  I should say, never taken in custody to jail, but just on sight. And I, my brother was two and a half years older, and he went to West Point. He got in, and it wasn't until I visited him like my sophomore year of high school, and I saw the academy grounds, and more importantly, I saw the cadets and like the discipline, the kind of tribe the military was, and the cohesion, the morale, and that esprit de corps, and I, that's, that's when I decided I want to be part of that, because I really was kind of a wayward youth, like I said. So that was really the impetus for me to apply. But again, I was pretty foolish, how dumb as I, that's the only school I applied to, was West Point. Again, my mother and father

• 6:16Speaker 06

  could have throttled me, and I, you know, just barely got in, got my congressional nomination, and it was because I visited my brother and seeing, again, the cadets and the, and the campus, so.

• 6:27Jack Murphy?

  And so this is in the late 1980s?

• 6:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, 1989.

• 6:32Jack Murphy?

  1989. And how did you take to West Point in that regimented way of life?

• 6:38Speaker 06

  Not good at all. Because actually, I remember I had teachers even tell me during the parent teacher conferences, senior year, telling me and my mother, there's no way Kyle's going to make it to West Point. Because I was actually the class clown, too. So not only rebellious, but I, I want to make people laugh when I go to West Point, and it was a total culture shock. And I knew it was going to be regimented, but I didn't know that it's so regimented, like your toothbrush has to be pointed one way in the door, and your toothpaste lid has to be pointed the other way. Like, it's down to that level of detail. Again, understandably so now in hindsight, but then as a punkish 18-year-old, I couldn't stand it. So actually, I got in trouble several times. We had Army Navy Week is like the biggest week of the year. The closest West Point ever gets to a real college

• 7:23Speaker 06

  is that week, because everyone's so kind of pumped up to beat Navy. It's the biggest football game of the year, of course, or biggest sporting event for West Point, for sure. And we had a jockstrap rally on the plane of West Point. The superintendent had told us, don't do it. Well, of course, me and like 200 of my classmates go out there anyways. It's like midnight, so no one's going to see it. No public's going to see it. But we go up midnight on a Thursday, you know, and we do a quick, you know, go Army chant, beat Navy, and then we run back, and I was tackled and caught. And I got called, I got the regiment on board, like a really serious disciplinary, like 60-area tours. We were marching back and forth. That's the system they had, and it was just brutal. So yeah, the first semester, I was, again, not a good cadet, because I just, I didn't

• 8:07Speaker 06

  like being told what to do, and I just kind of rebelled against the authorities.

• 8:10Jack Murphy?

  How long did you have to spend every night marching?

• 8:13Speaker 06

  Well, they, they only let you do five hours a week. So it was only like two hours on a Friday and three on a Saturday, but you'd have to spend like an hour or two preparing all your stuff, because you'd have to brush, shine your brush, shine your shoes. So even though it was only five hours, you really ate up like seven or eight. And then you couldn't like go out even off-campus, right? When you're restricted, you're doing the area tours. You just had to sit in your room. So you could march off, like I said, again, five every weekend. So what did that work out to be? 12 weekends? But that sucked.

• 8:44Speaker 06

  Social life is not a positive aspect of West Point.

• 8:48Jack Murphy?

  I in from West Point, um, you branched into the military police. Um, oh, and why don't you tell us about kind of your introduction to the FBI while you were at West Point?

• 8:58Speaker 06

  So there's another cadet, there was a law enforcement tactics club there and the cadet's dad was an FBI agent. And obviously I'd heard about the FBI growing up, kind of thought it was cool. And excuse me, that dad took us and fellow members to the FBI range one day. We went shooting, uh, and I thought, wow, this is really interesting how the FBI runs a range. Now the military runs a range. Then a few months later, we went to the tactical emergency vehicle operation course, T V O C in Wallkill, New York. The FBI driver training used to be there and we got to drive cars, you know, super cool, you know, driving cars fast and, you know, skidding around. And it just like a light bulb on me, a light switch, like the military is so regimented, it need to be.

• 9:40Speaker 06

  And I also thought about the officer career path was not, you didn't get to be, you know, shooter per se, or really do the fun stuff for that many years as an officer career. But I learned you could be an FBI agent your entire career. You never had to go higher, you never had to move, transfer either. You could stay in one place, do one job for 20 years and that really appealed to me. So I decided at West Point, I'm going to try to go on the FBI. So that's why I chose, or I branched military police, trying to make myself more competitive in my subsequent bureau application.

• 10:10Jack Murphy?

  Uh, and so how did you like, I mean, in retrospect, being a military police officer?

• 10:16Speaker 06

  It was not my favorite job. I, uh, enjoyed the people I worked with, but the mission, you know, patrolling the streets and enforcing, you know, road, road regulations, I didn't enjoy that at all. I did get to deploy, I was with the first cavalry division at Fort Hood most of my time. And so we got deployed to, uh, full Eagle, the thirty day to Korea. That was really enjoy, I went from Tucson all the way up to the DMZ. And that was my first deployment overseas and then went to Gitmo for six months to, with the Haitian and Cuban refugees. And that was kind of interesting because there was one, uh, when the president said they're not going to let any of those refugees back into the States.

• 11:00Jack Murphy?

  Was this like the Muriel boat lift or is it after that?

• 11:04Speaker 06

  Uh, it was after that.

• 11:06Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, because that was Cuba. Yeah.

• 11:07Speaker 06

  But there's still like, it was like 20,000 refugees separated in several camps. And I was the first lieutenant, so I had a camp of maybe 2,500 Haitians. And when they got the news of that, like riots broke out, like no shit. We had to evacuate our positions inside the camp. They were sharpening tent poles and they had little juice cans, remember those little orange juice cans, like four or five ounce? They were filling them with rocks, throwing them at soldiers. That was the first time I had to lead an element like into harms way. And I was so nervous because we, again, we'd evacuate our positions, the Haitians are running amok.

• 11:45Speaker 06

  We had, you know, hard perimeter units established in Humvees with mark 19s and 50 cal. So they weren't exiting the camp, but we still had to go back and take control of the camp. So, you know, all the junior attendants, myself, we're all looking at each other like, what are we going to do? You know? And then, you know, battalion commander, of course, makes the call, we're going back in, go get all your ripe, your on and your troops. And you're leading your platoons back in. That was the first time I remember like putting on that heavy riot gear, which is super heavy too, like talk about none. Uh, not that any gear is ever, uh, comfortable, but it just really difficult to maneuver and lead.

• 12:26Speaker 06

  And I remember the troops were looking at me and I was nervous for the first time, like sincerely thinking crap. Like this is on my shoulders now, everyone's lives is in my hands and I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I don't know how to take back at a camp, you know? And we just said, all right, we're going to get in line, all right? And just, we had our sticks, no weapons, right? Cause we're not taking weapons at the camp and just formed a skirmish line and.

• 12:50Jack Murphy?

  There's just shields and sticks.

• 12:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, shield and sticks and just one step at a time. And they're throwing shit at us and thankfully it wasn't, wasn't serious melee, like we weren't getting in a fisticuffs. But I was definitely nervous when we were first about to enter.

• 13:03Jack Murphy?

  Have you ever heard the story about the MPs that got into something similar down in Panama?

• 13:08Speaker 06

  No.

• 13:09Jack Murphy?

  It's like, kind of like a, uh, like for some people, it's an urban legend. This really happened. I think it was a Cuban refugee camp in Panama.

• 13:17Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 13:18Jack Murphy?

  And, uh, they revolted and the MPs got sent in, um, you know, to, to kind of squash it. And some of those guys, I wish I could remember the exact unit. I remember their nickname was the Wildcats, those are the platoon. And they described it like, they were like the Roman legion, because these like volleys of rocks were just coming and just pelting, like messed them up real bad. So they kind of got pushed backwards, as I recall. And then that night, the MPs went in there with second Ranger Battalion. And they all had baseball bats and ax handles and got their satisfaction.

• 13:57Speaker 06

  Tuned them up.

• 13:58Jack Murphy?

  Tenfold from what I've been told. Yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 06

  I've not heard that story.

• 14:04Jack Murphy?

  That's, I know some people who are there, like that's no shit, true story.

• 14:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 14:11Speaker 06

  Interesting. Yeah, it was not a.

• 14:13Jack Murphy?

  So what was the result of that, you know, for you? The, the camp riot?

• 14:18Speaker 06

  Learning, right, that leadership is about projecting confidence, even when you're not confident inside. Right? And I say it's leaders lend their nervous system. Right? Cause everyone looks to that leader, even if you're second or first lieutenant. All the 30 troops were looking at me to be composed.

• 14:40Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 14:40Speaker 06

  For me not to be highly emotional and to make decisions and be right there with them. I'm standing there right, right side by side and I'm not showing any fear, even though inside I'm a tiny bit nervous. So that was the most important thing I realized is that it's okay to be a little bit nervous, but for your troops and for the mission, you gotta stay composed. And yeah, again, because you lend your nervous system to everyone and they're going to feed off you.

• 15:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. And if you're. Start panicking, they will. Yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know, it runs like wildfire panic. And same thing too, if it's calm, cool, collected, then generally they'll be calm, cool, collected.

• 15:12Jack Murphy?

  So I take it you guys got the camp under control at some point?

• 15:15Speaker 06

  We did, yeah. We, we marched in there and as soon as we got within 10, 15 feet, you know, they scatter. They're big talkers when we were, you know, outside the fence. So as soon as we came in, then it was, it wasn't that rough to take it back over.

• 15:28Jack Murphy?

  Um, so as you're kind of like ending your, um, time in the military, you're already thinking about the FBI.

• 15:36Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 15:37Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 15:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:38Jack Murphy?

  So what was like the application process like for you?

• 15:40Speaker 06

  Well, I even went to night school, uh, you know, to get my master's degree.

• 15:44Jack Murphy?

  Was that required?

• 15:45Speaker 06

  No, not required, but I just wanted to make myself more competitive. Now I went to Ranger School, I wanted to test myself there, jump school. So those were good. I, at least to me, kind of testing grounds to kind of prove myself and see if I liked that kind of special or higher, you know, level of units. And I really did. And then I applied at like the year three and a half mark. You know, you'll have a five year commitment for West Point and the bureau accepted me, or excuse me, the bureau sent me a letter of rejection. And again, I have a master's degree, West Point, successful officer. And I was stunned, right? Cause I've been really preparing for like five years to be an FBI agent.

• 16:27Speaker 06

  And I was a forward head, but I processed through the San Antonio FBI office. And so the next afternoon I could get off, I drove down there personally to the applicant coordinator. And I just said, how can I make myself more competitive? And she said, oh, what's your name? Kyle Volek. She goes through, it's like paperwork back then. She finds my application, oh, here you are. You were placed in the least competitive pile of paperwork. You should have been placed in the most competitive.

• 16:56Speaker 06

  So literally had I not drove the two and a half hours there, kind of challenged that, you know, verdict that I wasn't competitive enough. I never would have had this career and I would never would have done anything.

• 17:06Jack Murphy?

  That's crazy.

• 17:07Speaker 06

  Yeah. So thankfully I was able to fix the clerical error, or she was able to fix the clerical error. And, uh, yeah, I got in four years, nine months, uh, started Quantico.

• 17:17Jack Murphy?

  Wow. And so this was 2001 ish?

• 17:23Speaker 06

  Uh, 98, I got out.

• 17:24Jack Murphy?

  Okay, it was not, okay, gotcha, gotcha. So 98, you're going through the FBI academy. Um, and was it what you had hoped it would be?

• 17:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, I really top notch intellectual people, but compared to, you know, Ranger School or at West Point, it really was not physically.

• 17:44Jack Murphy?

  It wasn't the physical challenge you were looking for.

• 17:46Speaker 06

  It wasn't as physically challenged and I knew that it wouldn't be exceptional physically challenged. I, I was hopeful it would be even more. Well, I remember we had, you know, the physical fitness test is a baseline, like very easy, I don't know, 16 minutes, two miles, maybe even 17 minutes for basic new agents. And you know that before you get there, you have to pass the PT test before you get there. And everyone takes the day one, the PT test and this guy failed. He did like 20 minutes or actually he didn't even finish like the last lap. And so the end of day one training, right? This is first day at Quantico. So my classmate said, hey, let's go cheer on, you know, John, he's going to finish his last lap. And I said, well, why are we going to cheer him on? He failed the PT test. He knew the standard coming in and the guy's leaving. He's going to be kicked out of here.

• 18:31Speaker 06

  Deservedly so. And like I got like a disagreement, like I'm all for cheering other people on, but he, he didn't meet the standard. But that was kind of the mentality of some people. Uh, cause the Bureau invests a lot in you to get there and they want to keep there, but he, he was kicked out rightfully. So.

• 18:46Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:47Speaker 06

  But it's introduction to different.

• 18:48Jack Murphy?

  Different cultures.

• 18:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 18:50Speaker 06

  More of a gentleman's course, uh, FBI Academy, but yeah, 16 weeks, good, really good firearms training. I enjoyed that.

• 18:58Jack Murphy?

  What do they call it? Is it Hogan's Alley?

• 19:00Speaker 06

  Yeah. Hogan's Alley has the most robbed bank in the United States of America, the Bank of Hogan. Cause almost every day, you know, mock, uh, or you know, actors are staging mock, you know, bank robberies and the new agents respond. It's really kind of fun to go and observe and watch the.

• 19:18Jack Murphy?

  That's like the FBI's bread and butter, right? Is bank robberies.

• 19:22Speaker 06

  Well, not the bread and butter, but it's just the, uh, the violation would kind of start off with the bank robberies really got our kind of name on the board.

• 19:31Jack Murphy?

  Uh, and then you got assigned to LA?

• 19:34Speaker 06

  Yes. So I was super excited. I, you know, was going to work, uh, violent Colombian gangs. So Quantico on week six, they say it's a blind monkey throwing a dart at the assignment board. Right? Cause you get to kind of put in either the 56 offices where I'd like to go. But then the joke is it's a blind monkey just throws it and you get whatever. But I got LA. It was my top 10. So I was happy and I got Colombian gangs. And I thought, perfect. I want to kick down doors, put these, you know, Colombian gangsters away for a while. And literally day one, I sent him, I show up in LA, I'm super excited. And I go see my, you know, Assistant Special Lit Charge and he says, Kyle, uh, congratulations. You're working counterintelligence.

• 20:18Speaker 06

  I said, what? I was told I was working Colombian gangs. He said, nope. Needs of the Bureau. I said, Roger that, you know, I'll do whatever. So it took me like six months to figure out how to work a case and find the bathroom. Uh.

• 20:32Jack Murphy?

  What kind of CI cases does LA have?

• 20:35Speaker 06

  So LA has a lot of defense, you know, industrial.

• 20:38Jack Murphy?

  Aerospace.

• 20:38Speaker 06

  Assets. And yeah, some universities there doing some research and, you know, a lot of foreign entities are trying to collect on that advanced research. So actually there's a lot of good work in LA. I really enjoyed that. Uh, counterintelligence work in LA. And I joined the, tried out for the LA SWAT team there. Uh, with some great professionals there. So we did all the high risk arrest warrants uh, in LA and it got you some pretty cool gigs. We, uh, for example.

• 21:07Jack Murphy?

  Before I, I, uh, go on, do you just want to explain to folks out there? When you say the LA SWAT team, it's the SWAT team that belongs to the LA field office.

• 21:17Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 21:17Jack Murphy?

  And like, you know, because when people think of SWAT teams, they probably think of like cities, but like the FBI has their SWAT guys also.

• 21:24Speaker 06

  Yes, there's 56 FBI field offices across the United States. And actually each one has their own SWAT teams for those federal warrants. And then, and I think it's nine offices. It's a regional or enhanced SWAT team. So they get extra training days, extra resources. And LA was one of those enhanced teams. So we would travel more and help support like other field ops like Phoenix, maybe to do a larger arrest operation, we'd send a team from LA to go support them. So I was in LA and a very good reputation. A former HRT, uh, guy was the team leader there. And actually I wanted to try out so badly that you had to be an agent for one year in the office, right? And the tryouts were like 11 months and two weeks, right? So I was like two weeks shy.

• 22:07Speaker 06

  And I go to see him. I said, hey, uh, you know, here's my background. I've always wanted to be on SWAT. I want to go to HRT eventually, but I want to do my time here in LA SWAT. Uh, there's my background. Can I try out? And, uh, he says, how much time do you have in 11 years? He says, well, I'll see you next year. Like that quick. And that's fine. That's the standard. That was the standard. So I had to wait another year. But I, I enjoyed LA. It was a great bunch of guys and, uh, we got to do some cool arrest man hunts for some cop killers. That was my first time going on those. And that's one of the more heightened emotional operations when you know you're going after someone who's already.

• 22:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 22:48Speaker 06

  Not just committed homicide. He's killed a cop. And so those were the ones that you, you really almost get emotional thinking about because, you know, you want almost revenge and you got a lot of revenge. Cause you know, it starts a cloud, the judgment. And we get too emotional. It was an LAPD officer, uh, who was, I think it was an LAPD officer who was killed. And we're supporting them doing other, you know, going out other target locations, trying to find this guy. Um, but I remember that I was first, I was, another time I was, I got to control the emotions. You let the motions control you and that's when you make mistakes. Cloud your judgment.

• 23:24Jack Murphy?

  Were you normally trying to like get, you know, scoop these guys up when they're, uh, in their bed down site for the night? They're going to sleep and.

• 23:31Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 23:32Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 23:32Speaker 06

  Yeah. We, ideally if it was super high risk, we, we could get a nighttime service warrant, which means we would go in like three or four AM. But sometimes we couldn't get that. So we'd go right at six AM.

• 23:43Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha.

• 23:43Speaker 06

  But that meant, you know, a three AM, you know, we'd meet at the rally point at three AM, do the briefing. We're rolling at 5:30. So we are literally knocking on that door at six AM. And most people, the criminal type are still asleep at six AM.

• 23:57Jack Murphy?

  And I, so I mean, if, uh, if, if the guy is a violent felon, a cop killer, they won't let you explosively breach or mechanically breach the, uh, structure?

• 24:09Speaker 06

  No, we can mechanically breach.

• 24:10Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 24:11Speaker 06

  Explosive breaching in the FBI is reserved solely for HRT.

• 24:14Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha. Okay.

• 24:15Speaker 06

  So when I was on HRT, I actually was a breacher and used explosives, but not on the LA.

• 24:20Speaker 03

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• 25:40Jack Murphy?

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• 27:04Jack Murphy?

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• 27:48Jack Murphy?

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• 29:04Speaker 05

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• 29:28Speaker 04

  And what was the, you wanted me to remind you about the Golden Globes?

• 29:31Speaker 06

  Oh, yes. This was kind of fun. We, uh,

• 29:36Speaker 06

  I forget the exact mission. It was just to provide security at the, at the red carpet for the Golden Globes. I think there was some vague or heightened threat that year. So we were go, and we're, they rented us tux, tuxedos. Right? So there's like, there's 45 guys on the team and we were spread out, but it's super cool. Like, I don't know, to me, being at the Golden Globes and even though we're on the sidelines, just being there was neat. And then there's a retired agent who was working security for the Variety after-party. So those after we're done, like we've done our official gigs and he invites, hey, you guys want to come? Anyone interested to come to the, you know, after-party? And I said, well, heck yeah, let's, let's go. So me and several guys went in there and you know, I'm like so like pumped up and excited to be here thinking like, this is

• 30:20Speaker 06

  cool. Like, you know, my young FBI agent and they walked through the door and then Courtney Cox walks right towards me. I thought, holy, holy moly. And she goes, excuse me, where's the bathroom?

• 30:34Speaker 06

  You know, talk about your ego, you know, going from like cloud nine to cloud zero. Cause I just thought that she was like a waitstaff, right? My tuxedo, even though it was rented, nice tux, it was nowhere near Hollywood level tux. Another funny story, there's a marine buddy of mine. He's so funny. Uh, he and I were chatting, you know, this girl and uh, she goes, what do you, what, she was asking us, she like wrote screenplays or something. And she goes, what do you ask us? Uh, excuse me. She said, tell me about you two. And my buddy Bruce goes, well, you write movies about guys like us.

• 31:13Speaker 06

  But it's something that was one of the great lines of her. Just so I'm like falling over laughter. And then her boyfriend apparently sees us, you know, talking to her girl. And we didn't know she had a boyfriend at the time. But he comes over and you know, Bruce is talking to the girl and uh, she goes, oh, this is my, or he says, oh, my name's John. Uh, I'm her boyfriend. And he goes, oh, nice to meet you, Jay. You know, intentions is the wrong name. And he goes, it's John. And he goes, whatever.

• 31:43Speaker 06

  Bruce had had a couple of drinks and so had I. Uh, so nothing happened. It was just some funny, you know, banter with the Hollywood type. Uh, so we left, but that was the, uh, the Golden Globes party story.

• 31:54Speaker 04

  Any, uh, any other crazy LA stories that you can share?

• 32:00Speaker 06

  Uh, there's a lot of good operations that we did out there. We were a pretty active team and we did a nice Trojan horse one. We were in a FedEx.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  That's cool.

• 32:12Speaker 06

  Van, uh, although it was several hours, you know, we're waiting on target and you know, all kitted up and it's hot. And it couldn't be running because the, you know, it alerted neighbors. And that was a pretty good, because we had to wait till the target was home. Then we open up and then go rush. So we

• 32:29Speaker 06

  got to do some cool daytime ops. So the most of them were zero six in the morning. Uh, but that was, that was definitely interesting. One other ones we hit.

• 32:37Speaker 06

  We went to Cheetah's strip club in Vegas.

• 32:40Speaker 04

  I, I wouldn't know, uh, an establishment like that. I mean, I trust what you're telling me though.

• 32:46Speaker 06

  And this is kind of interesting. So again, we drove from LA to Vegas and uh, I forget the exact charge, like embezzling and some other issues, but they wanted to do it when there were the least amount of customers and you know, the least amount of customers in the strip clubs are on noon. You know, like a Tuesday. So we drove, drove up there and, and we're fully in FBI attire. We go in, you know, raid the place and there's dancers on stage and we're, you know, just talking about surreal, like there's a naked girl, you know, on stage, reality FBI, put your hands up, up. And then, you know, guys are talking about scattering to the winds because they're

• 33:26Speaker 06

  caught, you know, litter with some of their pants down. Uh, so super awkward seeing the uh, reaction, but hey, we were, and we're going after the owner of the club. We weren't going after the patrons or the dancers at all, but we had to secure them. And you know, search them, you know, even the dancers have got to pass down quick, make sure there's nothing.

• 33:46Speaker 04

  I'm sure.

• 33:46Speaker 06

  Underneath there, as professional as we could. But I remember going to the bathroom and like seeing the trash can full of like condoms and I was like so disgusted.

• 33:56Speaker 04

  So you guys hit it because there's like all kinds of prostitution going on in this place?

• 34:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, but, but they, there was something with the books and the uh, taxes and embezzling from the uh, office. So we wanted to get those records before they destroyed them. So it was around a prostitution angle.

• 34:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, it makes sense that that Uncle Sam's coming after you over those back taxes.

• 34:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, you can't, don't be cheating Uncle Sam.

• 34:18Speaker 06

  And there was a bigger criminal case. I'm sorry, I don't remember more of the details of it, but yeah, obviously a federal case. It's got to be pretty significant numbers. And I was watching him go. That was a pretty unique one. Not every day you walk into Cheetah's and see FBI agents raiding it.

• 34:34Speaker 04

  I, and then the nine 11 attack happens while you're out there in LA, I take it?

• 34:39Speaker 06

  Yes, I was, I remember I was in my home, you know, getting ready for work, six fifteen ish. Whenever the first plane hit, I saw it. I thought, oh my God, what a horrible accident, right? I didn't put it together right away. And then I saw the second one hit and then I knew this is no accident. You know, we're of course under attack. And so it was a few times that I hopped in the car and ran, you know, code, license sirens all the way from, I lived in the San Fernando Valley, down in Wilshire, you know, driving on the shoulder, hauling ass to get to the office. Cause nobody knew what was going on at all. We thought our whole nation was under attack. So first thing I did is said, hey, start walking the perimeter of the federal building.

• 35:19Speaker 06

  So we're in our, our tack ear, just walking around, talking to everyone, driving up like, what's your business in federal building? We're closed today, you know, turning people away because of uh, the attack. So that first few weeks, we were just running leads. Every, you know, neighbor was calling about, oh, the guy next to me speaks Arabic. So okay, do you have any, you know, evidence of criminal activity or terrorist, you know, activity? No, but we had to follow up on every one of those.

• 35:47Speaker 04

  After the attacks, you guys were working like 20 hour days, right? Like they had you busy.

• 35:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, but it was fun. Like nobody complained or bitched, you know, what it's like when you're doing a mission that you know is righteous.

• 35:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 06

  Like the, the hours invested of, I mean, we got on a better cycle, probably day five or six, you know, because you never, you can only surge for so long. Like a true 20 hour surge, you're going to burn out everyone. So I think we got 12 hour shifts after that. It wasn't too bad.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  And how did you go about applying for HRT?

• 36:22Speaker 06

  So you have to, you know, submit an application and then they interview your colleagues, coworkers, your bosses. So you have to get vetted even before you're allowed to try out. And I had two buddies on the SWAT team, uh, Mike and John. And they were both interested in trying out for HRT as well. So we started out working out together. We literally mapped out workout plans and we switched off like I would do Mondays shooting and Tuesday, John would do, we'd go to the UCLA, run the stairs. Wednesday, we'd do pool drills. Cause we wanted to mimic every single thing, at least that we knew that was HRT selection. We wanted to practice it beforehand and replicate as much of the stuff as we could. So when we went there, right, we were ready. So we trained together for

• 37:06Speaker 06

  year, over a year, like two a days and on the weekends, it was brutal.

• 37:13Speaker 06

  But necessary, right? To get your body in that kind of shape for selection. You don't have to be an Olympic athlete, but your body has to tolerate right an exceptional amount of physical strain. And the more or the less your body is physically stressed, right? Then the more mentally you'll perform. So that was our, obviously a thought process going in. We talked to other people that had tried out. So read Danny Colson's book. I saw it on one of your previous podcasts in the background, No Heroes. Uh, but that and Chris Whitcomb's, you know, book called Zero really drove me to try out for HRT. And that's one of the reasons that I wrote this book, just to share these kind of unique, fascinating stories and talk about some extraordinary people that I was fortunate to work with.

• 37:56Speaker 06

  And I read about them in those two books. And that's also what drove kind of all three of us to try out.

• 38:02Speaker 04

  And looking back on it, like, do you think that was a smart way to?

• 38:05Jack Murphy?

  Train, did you overtrain, undertrain, train on the wrong things?

• 38:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, actually, overtrained, uh, they do a lot of dips at HRT selection, like a lot of dips. It's like one of their crazy unique.

• 38:17Jack Murphy?

  Danny really likes dips, I guess.

• 38:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, and so we did a ton of dips, but I did so much that I needed elbow surgery. So I definitely overtrained, uh, on the dips. So because everything you do, as you know, is with your hands, whether you're fast driving, shooting, climbing, rocking, everything, you're using those hands. And yeah, to this day, I've, I've had seven surgeries on my elbows, five on the left, two on the right.

• 38:47Jack Murphy?

  I'm, I'm starting to get it. It's called like golfer's elbow. Have you ever heard that? It's like tennis elbow, but it's kind of the opposite.

• 38:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, the ulnar nerve.

• 38:55Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, it sucks.

• 38:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I had ulnar nerve transposition surgery twice on this, once here, and then I tore the distal bicep tendon. Yeah, my body's broken.

• 39:06Jack Murphy?

  You're telling me my future.

• 39:08Speaker 06

  Well, you look better than I do.

• 39:12Jack Murphy?

  So what was, uh, other than the dips, what was HRT selection like?

• 39:16Speaker 06

  Uh, it was absolutely brutal and Whitcomb does a great job talking about it in his book. You know, the, it was the lack of feedback, which I found not troubling, but we all crave feedback, right? Especially where you pour your heart and soul.

• 39:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, am I doing good? Am I doing bad?

• 39:35Speaker 06

  And some, yeah, and you compare yourself against the other people you're trying out with, but you don't know. Maybe do they all suck or are they all really good? Cause you're, you know, paired off in running groups and like, I remember when I looked around when you first, like, of course it's 3am, wake up or like in the gym at four o'clock for that first PT test. I just remember looking around thinking this is the room that I want to belong to. Like, these are the people that I want to, but I really, I felt, I felt ordinary among extraordinary. Cause everybody was extraordinary. So like the first time in my life, I felt like, man, I'm not special at all. Like truly, I am just baseline. I never worked so hard to be average at HRT selection.

• 40:15Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 40:16Speaker 06

  Cause everything you're given max effort, you know, and, and just the, you know, first PT test is, you know, max pull ups, sit ups, rope climb, the two mile run, and then the eight flights of stairs with 35 pound vest and then 55 pound ram. And it's all timed and you don't make any of those cuts, you're gone. And that's just the first hour. You know, that's just your taste. Like that, that's nothing.

• 40:40Jack Murphy?

  And how long does the selection go on for?

• 40:41Speaker 06

  Uh, it's two weeks.

• 40:42Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 40:43Speaker 06

  Every day is brutal. Every day is 20 hours and they intentionally disrupt the sleep, sleep cycle. So even though you have on paper, four hours of rest, they flashbang you. They can wake you up and you have to write reports. So I remember one, one time, you know, we're sleeping in cots in these tents and they throw bangs in. It's like right next to my ear, like between me and the former SEAL and we're all, ah.

• 41:12Speaker 06

  And then, uh, we had to go watch like, and it's just to mess with you, waste your time. Like we watched like five minutes of the Teletubbies, right? Remember the cartoon show? And then they said, okay, now write a 302 is an FBI record of an interview. Now go write a 302 of what you saw on the video. So like, you're barely, you know, keeping your eyes awake and I ain't got to remember this horrible cartoonish thing and then.

• 41:36Jack Murphy?

  The yellow one said to the red one, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 41:39Speaker 06

  Yeah. And it's just horseshit, right? To mess with your mind and to sleep deprived you. So that was, that's really the hardest. And then physical activity after physical activity, there were like two to three, like absolutely grueling physical events. Cause it's pattern, you know, off Delta, as you know, that are back in 83 and they're founded. Delta came, they tried to help with that selection process. So it's brutally, but it's fair and everybody's got to go through it.

• 42:06Jack Murphy?

  What was the hardest part for you?

• 42:09Speaker 06

  Well, the hardest part was not making the team.

• 42:14Speaker 06

  And again, it's rigorous, right? People get hit with unlucky injuries and, you know, don't make the cuts or, you know, there's peer evaluations too, which, which I liked, cause then that helps cut people as well. But I'll tell you what happened to me, or I should say what my mistakes were.

• 42:32Speaker 06

  I don't know if you've ever did the Marine Corps Weaver?

• 42:35Jack Murphy?

  Yes.

• 42:35Speaker 06

  Just, and you know, there's logs go up and over.

• 42:37Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, the army has those too.

• 42:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's, it's not that hard an obstacle.

• 42:40Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 42:41Speaker 06

  But it's just part of the whatever 10 obstacles and we're running the Marine Corps obstacle course at Weaver. And there's former Navy SEALs, a former Bud's instructor, he's standing there and I'd heard of him beforehand, but I'm not saying anything. I should say I'm not talking to him. You don't talk to the instructors during selection, but I go through the Weaver. And then he says, stop, you know, blue five, you wear Penny's number. They don't call you by name, blue five. Do the obstacle again. You missed a log.

• 43:10Speaker 06

  In my brain, I'm thinking.

• 43:11Jack Murphy?

  If you missed the log, you would have fallen off.

• 43:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, like unless you have like a six foot wingspan, there's no way to miss a log in the Weaver, like, like literally. So my mind is like trying to process like there's, it can't be like, or maybe I did. So I, I said, sir, can you tell me which log I missed? I'm confused.

• 43:28Speaker 06

  Blue five, do the obstacle again.

• 43:32Speaker 06

  Right? So I basically challenged, right? An instructor. I should have just done it again, but I was seriously confused, but no shoes. I was kind of calling.

• 43:43Speaker 06

  And I shouldn't say calling them out, but I was trying to understand what the problem was, but that's not your job as a selectee. You're just supposed to fall in the structure.

• 43:48Jack Murphy?

  Well, I mean, from what you're describing to me, I mean, you're like, kind of like exhausted, sleep deprived. You're kind of cotton minded at that point.

• 43:54Speaker 06

  A hundred percent.

• 43:55Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 43:55Speaker 06

  A hundred percent. So that, that wasn't devastating. The devastating thing was that it came to the shooting event. They had, again, you did lots of shooting the whole time. And at the end, there's a steel plate competition, all the selectees against one another. And I loved to shoot. I was competitive shooter, USPSA, went to three gun nationals. Like that was my wheelhouse and my forte. So I was feeling confident and I get to the finals and I missed one of the steel plates and the guy beat me.

• 44:23Speaker 06

  So I was pissed, right? So we'd go back and we're reloading magazines for the next thing. And it's just a selectee. Is there only like, I think eight of us left at this point, you know, the 40 that started? And I said to him, hey, Bobby, I'll bet you a paycheck. I'll beat you next time.

• 44:39Speaker 06

  Right? Cocky, kind of stupid. And again, dumb and my ego talking.

• 44:44Jack Murphy?

  Selection also not really the place for that. Yeah.

• 44:46Speaker 06

  Not at all.

• 44:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 06

  And around the corner was an HRT operator listening. So he heard that and he said, oh my God, this volatile, cocky guy thinks he's, you know, God's gift to shooting. So that got around, you know, like wildfire and if there's any doubt. And they all, you know, obviously the, the team talks and, you know, compatibility is one of the key criteria. And they said, well, if there's a question mark and there's a question mark in their mind, we're not going to take them. So yeah, that was feedback I got those through out of, and talking about like two full weeks of essentially 24 hour days. I mean, evaluated, monitored and it comes down to two 30 seconds where I open my mouth when I shouldn't have.

• 45:29Jack Murphy?

  And so what did they tell you at the end of the course?

• 45:33Speaker 06

  Well, you get very little feedback initially. Uh, it's maybe like three or four weeks. So first off, I was happy to finish, right? And me and my LA buddies flew back and we were super proud. We were three of the, maybe it was 11 that finished. I could be off my numbers because I had to try it a second year. Anyway, we were proud to finish and we thought we all did well. I thought I did well. I knew I did pretty well physically and I thought shooting did decently. And you do the resting arrows too. And so I thought I decently showed. I didn't really think about those two events at all, right? The time I opened my mouth, they didn't like pop out of like super horrible events.

• 46:13Speaker 06

  And then you get a call from the HRT commander, you know, if you make it, and if you don't make it, you don't, you don't get a call. So my two buddies, John and Mike got calls one day and they both quickly called me, Kyle, did you get a call? Nope.

• 46:29Speaker 06

  And so you, you know, you find out by not finding out.

• 46:31Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 46:33Speaker 06

  And that was brutal. Then, you know, I worked, you know, I had a couple of back channels and they're very slow, you know, to re-reveal information. But that was eventually kind of the word that got back is you can't be open your mouth, question instructor. You can't be, you know, thinking about yourself. And I realized they're right. Like you gotta put the team and the mission above your ego.

• 46:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 46:56Speaker 06

  And that was really humbling and I needed it, uh, to really think back. Do I have the aptitude for this? And I did. I just gotta control my ego and not do stupid things when you're so tired, when you're so drained. Like put the team first always.

• 47:13Jack Murphy?

  Uh, how long was it before you were able to go back?

• 47:17Speaker 06

  Well, it took me months, just, you know, personally, professionally, I was devastated, right? Having invested so many years and into this. And I remember talking to a boss in LA and ASAC and he could see I was, you know, depressed like six months later. And he said, well, what are you going to do? I said, I don't know. And he said, well, you, you went around that roller coaster or the merry go round. You tried for the bass run and you missed it. Happens. So are you going to be able to look at yourself in the mirror if you don't try one more time? And I don't know why, but that just like stuck and I started looking at myself in the mirror.

• 47:53Jack Murphy?

  It's what you needed to hear at that moment.

• 47:54Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I said, I'm going to do it. And so I started all, not all over again, cause I didn't let my fitness, fitness go all out the window. But I started back the two a days and that grueling preparation. So I went back a year later, year and a few months and thankfully, you know, learned to keep my mouth shut.

• 48:14Jack Murphy?

  They called you back this time.

• 48:15Speaker 06

  And yeah, and I got the, got the call. And yeah, I was fortunate to be among a group of exceptional people and.

• 48:25Jack Murphy?

  So, uh, what was the? The HRT training pipeline like, once you get there.

• 48:31Speaker 06

  So we have, uh, OTC course, you know, we call it knots, new operators training is eight plus months. Though it's a long pipeline, because we do everything, right? The, lots of CQB, lots of firearms, lots of repelling.

• 48:48Speaker 06

  You know, weapons of mass destruction. God, I hated that WMD stuff.

• 48:52Jack Murphy?

  Because of the, the, uh, bear suit they have you wear?

• 48:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, the, uh, yeah, what is that thing in the back of that breather system?

• 48:59Jack Murphy?

  The respirator.

• 49:00Speaker 06

  Respirator, yeah. Just heavy stuff. And like, it's so unrealistic. Like, we're fast roping and, you know, 95 pound of gear. And you can only operate really for like, an hour. And then, okay, you're sweating so much, you're, you're not mission capable.

• 49:15Jack Murphy?

  At a certain point, yeah.

• 49:17Speaker 06

  Uh, because that stuff's just so heavy and unwieldy. And then, we did dignitary protection. Uh, like driver's training with the Moab Utah, that was super cool. So yeah, basically a whole spectrum of skills, go diving in Key West. Really enjoy it. Like, that's probably some of my most enjoyable things, because you're just training, right? You're just getting these skill sets. And you're not on the team yet, so you don't have all the pressure being on the team. And you're still in that learning mode, and you're getting exposed to, oh my God, this is so cool, explosive breaching and tubular assaults.

• 49:51Jack Murphy?

  You gotta do free fall.

• 49:53Speaker 06

  If you're on the jump team, yeah, I didn't, I, I, I wanted to go put my name in the hat, but only, like.

• 49:58Jack Murphy?

  Is that how it's, it's subdivided? There's like a jump team, a dive team?

• 50:02Speaker 06

  So it's gone through several iterations, but there used to be just a dive team, there used to be just, of course, there'd be jumpers, but now they're spread out among the, got three teams. So every team is supposed to be, you know, theoretically mirror, mirror images of one another. But only, again, on that team is a handful of guys, maybe, I don't know the exact numbers, but it's just 18 guys on a team. Only a third of them maybe will be free fall, because that's such a extra investment of time and energy.

• 50:29Jack Murphy?

  Especially to be good at it. I mean, it takes a lot of time.

• 50:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, so our senior guys have thousands of jumps, uh, but that's the other reason we don't send all the guys to that. But yeah, select, go to all that stuff. A free fall, I should say.

• 50:41Jack Murphy?

  What was your favorite part of the pipeline?

• 50:46Speaker 06

  I really enjoyed dignitary, dignitary protection. Like, we protected the FBI director and the attorney general. I don't know why, I enjoyed, and we worked with the Secret Service, like, even, and this is later on, the team got to go, like, Republican National Convention, Democrat National Convention, and just kind of seen behind closed doors going to the White House. That was just unique access when you did the DIG Pro stuff. But I didn't really love the mission set, you know, taking a bullet for another guy. But we were actually the cat team. It was interesting. So we were the counter assault team for the Secret Service. So, right, when the Secret Service went into trouble, HRT is their backup. So we would go to the State of Unions, all those other high-profile events. And, and so we got to work and train with them at their multiple Maryland locations. That was kind of interesting, too.

• 51:29Jack Murphy?

  You'd be like, pre-positioned, right there, ready to go.

• 51:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly.

• 51:34Jack Murphy?

  I, and afterwards, when you graduated, they sent you to scout sniper school? When did that come about?

• 51:40Speaker 06

  Well, again, it's just like everything else needs at the Bureau. I, I wanted to be an assaulter. As we used to say, eating, eating Oreos in the talk while the snipers are out freezing their asses off. I wanted to be eating Oreos. And I know I, I'm not that patient of a guy, and, you know, I,

• 52:00Speaker 06

  even though I enjoyed shooting, I pistol was my, mostly 12 on rifle, but not necessarily a scoped, heavy bolt gun. But nonetheless, the HRT gods said you'll be a sniper. So they sent the snipers to Marine Corps Scout Sniper School right there at Kalinco. Again, great instructors, but man, like, the stocks, I got caught, you know, almost every time. Remember, it was like snowing? And we had like all the white on. And I remember like, one objective, like, I'm trying to find, confirm the target and, you know, poking my head up, and I'm trying to be slow and, you know, I just don't have the sniper skills. Even though I sincerely tried. And like, the guy, uh, instructed the Marine Corps instructor later said, Kyle, you look like a ping pong ball.

• 52:44Speaker 06

  Popping your head up, trying to confirm the target.

• 52:49Speaker 06

  And it was really that moment I realized, I'm just not suited for this. Even though I'll do my best, I'm gonna try. I just knew long-term I was not gonna be a good sniper.

• 53:00Jack Murphy?

  I, and what team did they put you on?

• 53:04Speaker 06

  So I was on the blue, okay, blue Sierra, uh, was my unit. So, we had, uh, yeah, six great, great guys, good, all good shots, and, you know, three sniper observer pairs, basically.

• 53:20Jack Murphy?

  Oh, and so I guess like, at this moment, just to take a, a quick pause for folks out there to talk about what HRT is. We've been having this whole conversation, but for people who have no, no, knowledge, uh, they can go back in time and, and watch an old Team House, two Team House episodes with Danny Colson, who was like the founder of the unit. So that's actually a really good place to go and get more information. Um, but, but when you got there, uh, you know, in the 2000s, what is the FBI hostage rescue team? Why does the FBI have this unit?

• 53:53Speaker 06

  So it's created back in 83, right, for the Olympics. And so it, the Department of Justice and the FBI had a counterterrorism team on, on par with Delta to be the civilian equivalent in law enforcement. Uh, because it, it talks about in the book, but it's such a great story, I'll share it again, is that the Attorney General was touring Delta Force and looking at the layout of their gear, and he goes, where are the handcuffs?

• 54:21Speaker 06

  And if you've heard the story, but Delta says that we, we don't use handcuffs. That's what they said in 83 or 82. And that was, at least for the Attorney General, a light bulb, like, we need guys that can arrest individuals and prosecute them and put them through the criminal justice system. So that was one of the main reasons it was created, to have a entity that can operate at the highest levels, but yet take them into, you know, US custody and US court system.

• 54:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, and I, I think that's what makes HRT kind of a fascinating unit to me, that I don't want to compare them directly to JSOC. They're different, they have different missions. But HRT can do a lot of those types of things, up to and including hostage rescue missions. Um, and also have the, like, infiltration capabilities that we discussed earlier. Um, but at the same time, all you guys are cops. You can investigate cases, you can write reports, you can, um, take the stand and testify against the bad guys and make the arrest.

• 55:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's what makes us so unique, is, well, not just makes us so unique, but different, is that we're uh, older age group, too, right? Your average FBI agent, like, 30. So we're not as young, maybe as nimble. But we have that seasoned experience, because you have to be an FBI agent first, right, prior to coming on HRT, at least have three, it used to be five years. Well, actually, three year minimum, I think, still. Uh, successfully demonstrate those skills of being an FBI agent. Because that is the core, you're still, even though you're an HRT operator, you're still an FBI agent. So you need to be able to investigate and prosecute targets. And, and that's why it was such a good blend with JSOC, right?

• 55:59Speaker 06

  Because JSOC is the best at finding, fixing, destroying the enemy. Bureau is really good at investigating criminal networks and dismantling, from an investigative angle, a criminal network, whether it's like Costa Nostra or Colombian gangsters. You know, Al Qaeda is kind of very similar, right? They still have leadership structures, they gotta funnel money around. And that, that was again, why the Bureau HRT was melted with JSOC to embed us, to help support JSOC with that.

• 56:29Jack Murphy?

  And from what I've read, at least, I mean, that relationship continues. I believe there were some FBI guys with the Maduro raid.

• 56:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, there's HRT guys there.

• 56:37Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 56:37Speaker 06

  In that first TLO. So, yeah, the HRT continues to work with the guys.

• 56:43Jack Murphy?

  And that's because they needed to arrest the guy, right?

• 56:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 56:45Jack Murphy?

  Put handcuffs on him.

• 56:47Speaker 06

  Yes. And, because it's chain of custody, too, for evidence.

• 56:50Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 56:50Speaker 06

  Uh, because being in Iraq and Afghanistan, that was like, not the holy grail, but we were there, God forbid if we, you know, find a piece of paper has a US phone number on it.

• 56:59Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:00Speaker 06

  Picture of your house, that we could, you know, satcom that very quickly back to FBI. And we could have an agent at that house, you know, within an hour, you know, from finding something on target, you know, it's pretty remarkable capability. We would help bring the target.

• 57:15Jack Murphy?

  There's that other operation in Libya years ago, where the Delta guys grabbed the guy off the street.

• 57:20Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:20Jack Murphy?

  And I believe HRT was along with that, or a couple guys, a couple liaison.

• 57:25Speaker 06

  No, there were two HRT operators that were with them. Hundred percent. Yeah, I know one of them very well, yeah.

• 57:30Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, so it's pretty interesting what you, the, the unit gets into, both domestically, but also internationally. Like, you guys, uh, they, there's some sort of like, um, is it like legal mechanism for like rendition?

• 57:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, foreign transfer custody, it's a rendition, we help bring them back.

• 57:52Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you helped bring, uh, you know, Maduro and some terrorists, Al Qaeda guy back.

• 57:56Speaker 06

  From the justice.

• 57:58Jack Murphy?

  Uh, so, when you got to Blue Team, uh, were they already like in this rotation where they're deploying overseas with JSOC?

• 58:07Speaker 06

  No, that did not start yet. We were, again, there were some individual one-offs that HRT would work with some of the other units to do individual missions, but there was no full, full-blown deployments. And it was actually my partner and I, he was fellow West Pointer, fellow TABD, uh, infantry officer. We were the first two selected to go be embedded with, uh, 275. And with McChrystal and, you know, FBI Deputy Director said, hey, let's try this out for a full rotation. And I think we were picked because we had the military background, we at least could speak and understand.

• 58:50Speaker 06

  The military language, we also were experienced agents and we definitely checked our egos at the door because you know what it's like overseas when everybody wants to go on target with JSOC. It's like a circus, right? Outside the tent, people are just dying to get in, but you gotta prove yourself and you gotta add value. And so we sat there for three weeks in Mosul and like, I remember asking like, what are we doing here? Because they didn't want to take us on target. And we said, hey, we're, you know, we're technically, exactly proficient. We're not going to slow down and we do bring some capabilities which you guys don't have. For example, MAFS was one of them, the mobile automated fingerprint ID system, MAFS.

• 59:29Jack Murphy?

  Oh, that was before we got the Cogent?

• 59:32Speaker 06

  Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So the MAFS is like 30 pounds, but we would carry it, of course. And then we'd could scan fingerprints and then it would be linked to the FBI database. So if anyone had planted an ID or constructed an ID and all of our thousands of prints, we could have instant match. So that was finally like the key that opened the door after three weeks. And again, us living and working at the FOB, you know, trying to be of assistance without getting in the way.

• 1:00:02Jack Murphy?

  What was your conception of why you were there versus what theirs was?

• 1:00:07Speaker 06

  Well, understandably, they were just a little bit reluctant because, hey, we have two FBI agents here with badges and notebooks and they got all the cool gear, but we haven't trained extensively with them. And are they looking at us? Like, I think that was the initial thoughts, which I totally understand. And we come there kind of hat in hand, like, we want to go on target with you. Well, everyone wants to go on target with us, right? But it was because of that MAFS.

• 1:00:32Jack Murphy?

  They thought you guys were like internal affairs?

• 1:00:34Speaker 06

  Right, yeah. I don't care what you're like, short of a war crime, I don't care what you do. We're not here to look at you guys at all. And we can help, you know, with the MAFS and also if there's a connection to a US target, that was our two key element. And it's true, we wanted to have that connectivity back to the States. If we find an imminent threat that need to be communicated to the FBI, we can have agents there at someone's door ASAP. You know, we'll bring that to the target and we're not going to get in the way. We'll stand the corner, he tells us to stand the corner. And yeah, thankfully, the first mission turned into a second mission, turned into a third mission. And they ended up, again, kind of fully integrating us towards the end. And

• 1:01:18Speaker 06

  towards the end, it was really cool. Abu Taha was like the second or third in command of Al Qaeda at the time, a very top tier individual in Mosul. This is Tal Afar in 2005. It was pretty dicey and, you know, not fun, as you know, you literally, I think we may have crossed each other in the tarmac.

• 1:01:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, probably. Because we relieved 275. And so, yeah, we were going Mosul, Tal Afar, all that stuff.

• 1:01:45Speaker 06

  No, literally, we were probably on the airfield at the same time.

• 1:01:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah, I'm Mosul airfield. Yeah.

• 1:01:52Speaker 06

  Yeah. But that was, yeah, I'll never forget, well, back it up to when we first flew in in the C-130, that was my first corkscrew experience, you know, the deep dive pilot shooting out chaff. I'm holding on and I obviously jumped out of 30 or so C-130s, but man, I'd never done that corkscrew. And I remember looking over at my partner thinking, man, this, this is no joke. We're in, we're in this shit. And that was the first time we, at least overseas, I remember being shot at. It was on one of the Mosul day hits.

• 1:02:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. So tell us, like, as you started getting attached to these operations and going out with 275, I mean, what was that like?

• 1:02:32Speaker 06

  It was like surreal, right? Because I was former Army guy, MP, but, you know, I understood a little bit about Rangers, having to have my tab. That was one cool thing. I will say this is, you'll appreciate this, being a 375 guy, is some of the younger guys hadn't got their tab yet, right? They were, whatever, E3s just waiting, or maybe they got injured or something. And they were, everyone was always busting their chops back, back in the FOB. And I'd say, well, I got my tab, how about you?

• 1:03:03Speaker 06

  But it was all good natured, you know, ribbing back and forth. So we actually, you know, by the end of it, were truly integrated. It was, it was really wonderful to see, especially after that, breaking down those barriers, understandably so, that me and my partner, we really kind of forged that template for future in-bed operations across JSOC, at least for FBI personnel, kind of the model, do that sensitive site exploitation on target. So we did basically the battlefield interrogation with the MAFS. We did the MAFS first to run the prints, get that going. Then we hop into the bit on the, you know, ma'ams or everyone on target, try to paint that intel picture. Because I kind of painted, I reviewed myself, I was almost as a forward deployed kind of S2 to help with that

• 1:03:48Speaker 06

  intel picture and help with following targets. Because that was one of the, they used to me, one of the highlights, kind of felt like we really proved our value is, you know, we got some lieutenant, you know, an IED cell maker, and I persuaded him to take us to his captain, who was just like two blocks away. So I remember walking through the streets and I'm leading, I mean, still behind the front element, but, you know, I'm holding this flexicuffs down the middle of the street, but literally, it's me with him and this is the whole task force following kind of this path. And I was, I was super proud to kind of contribute before that.

• 1:04:23Jack Murphy?

  Doing those kinds of missions and at night, the streets are just a little too quiet.

• 1:04:28Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. Well, you know, like when the dogs would howl, or then when you hear the morning prayers.

• 1:04:33Jack Murphy?

  Oh, that scares the hell out of you when it goes off at like 3:00 AM. Yeah.

• 1:04:37Speaker 06

  Spooked me to no end. Because I mean, I never got used to the morning prayers because they're so loud.

• 1:04:43Jack Murphy?

  Well, and I guess you, you and your partner did do a good job of like building the bridge, building the relationship, because when we got there with 375, I don't, not that I was privy to everything, but I don't recall any sort of friction, like those guys, the HRT guys we had were always coming out with us.

• 1:04:58Speaker 06

  That's excellent. So you had two guys with you?

• 1:05:00Jack Murphy?

  As I recall, yeah.

• 1:05:01Speaker 06

  Excellent.

• 1:05:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:05Jack Murphy?

  Well, why don't you tell us about the Tal Afar mission where you guys rolled up that bad guy?

• 1:05:10Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. So this is Abu Taha. I remember this is daytime and he was a senior ranking, you know, kind of guy. And it was, you know, probably like noon or one, and you know, normally you're half racked out. And, but we got the notice and someone, everyone's super excited because.

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• 1:06:58Speaker 06

  They hadn't found his location yet. So we did a daytime hit and everybody was kind of on edge because he fought before and like all the big guys, he said he'd never be taken alive. He'd kill himself up. So we're really worried about him having a suicide vest on. They roll out and the streets, you know, going during the day is such a different animal than a night. And as soon as you roll out of the FOB during the day, you know, you're worried about an ID or sniper or anything. And thankfully, we didn't do too many daytime missions, but that one.

• 1:07:35Jack Murphy?

  It's about like an hour and 10, 20 minutes from Mosul to Tal Afar.

• 1:07:39Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:07:40Jack Murphy?

  And then that's, that city was really dicey at that time. Both of them were, for that matter.

• 1:07:44Speaker 06

  Yeah. So we thankfully didn't run any issues. We go on target. He's there with like his girlfriend. So there weren't any other fighters there. So thank you. It was a quick grab. But the coolest thing for me is we were riding back and I talked to him on target just a little bit, just confirming him, you know. And you know, that was like one of the greatest calls ever, when he self-identifies and jackpot. Like, you know, that jackpot over the net? I don't know, it's just like an electric pine feeling because he was such a high value target. And that's why we were there, right? To get the HVTs. So that was an awesome call. Then we go back and this is when I need this moment to this, that deployment, personally and professionally, was we also interrogators are back in the rear at the FOB. And we'd built such a relationship, good relationship with him. The

• 1:08:27Speaker 06

  lead interrogator said, hey, Kyle, you started the bit with him. I want you to continue the interrogation with me here and him with Abu Taha here in the rear. So for him to ask, you know, an outside entity, not DOD, but an FBI agent, to conduct that initial interrogation on HVT with him, that kind of showed that we proved our value and our worth.

• 1:08:50Jack Murphy?

  Was this at that little black site we had there on the compound?

• 1:08:54Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:08:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:56Speaker 06

  You know exactly what I'm talking about.

• 1:08:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I sure do.

• 1:08:58Speaker 06

  Yeah. So we were in the same, we probably slept next to one another.

• 1:09:04Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, well, we had contractors there doing the interrogation. And I don't know who else may have been involved, but I do remember, I think it was actually a husband and wife team.

• 1:09:14Speaker 06

  There was. So, so I want to say the guy's name is Jay, but I saw his real name. He was like the boss and there's husband and wife beneath him.

• 1:09:21Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 1:09:22Speaker 06

  Right?

• 1:09:23Jack Murphy?

  I, I don't know the chain of command.

• 1:09:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, I know the husband and wife. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah.

• 1:09:30Speaker 06

  It's such a small world. I can picture him right now.

• 1:09:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, no, I, I definitely spent some time in that facility. Wonderful, wonderful accommodations that they were.

• 1:09:42Speaker 06

  It's good living.

• 1:09:44Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. I mean, I, I think they did do a pretty good job of out processing civilians when we picked them up, which happened quite a bit.

• 1:09:56Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 1:09:56Jack Murphy?

  But yeah, I wouldn't want to be a bad guy held in, in that place. Yeah, that would not be cool.

• 1:10:01Speaker 06

  Not at all.

• 1:10:04Jack Murphy?

  And so you did subsequently, um, four more rotations with two, seven, five. They kind of kept you.

• 1:10:11Speaker 06

  Three total. Yeah.

• 1:10:12Jack Murphy?

  Oh, three total.

• 1:10:13Speaker 06

  Two in Iraq, one up here.

• 1:10:14Jack Murphy?

  Oh, okay. Okay. And that's pretty interesting that they kept you with that battalion, that that relationship.

• 1:10:19Speaker 06

  Such a great relationship with them. And yeah, same company, CECO.

• 1:10:24Jack Murphy?

  Interesting.

• 1:10:25Speaker 06

  Each time. So I loved it. They loved it. And really that way, you know, the more we work with someone, the more comfortable we are with them. So I, then the subsequent rotations, I went and did the train up with them.

• 1:10:37Jack Murphy?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:10:37Speaker 06

  Even beforehand, I did a couple of weeks with them, you know, me and the other HRT buddy. So it, by the time we went to Ramadi, you know, we were fully, and you'll like this Ramadi story. Cause only a fellow, I think Ranger appreciated, they have, how do I say this?

• 1:10:57Speaker 06

  A homemade phallic symbol, which is quite large. You're replicating the male genitalia.

• 1:11:04Jack Murphy?

  The Rangers had this?

• 1:11:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:11:06Jack Murphy?

  Okay, I believe it.

• 1:11:07Speaker 06

  And they would on target, try to stuff in someone's backpack. But and then it was like, oh, you're carrying a dick on target? Like, what are you? Why, why would you carry it? But you never, you never would want it in your backpack, but they would on target, when you weren't paying attention, stick it in your backpack.

• 1:11:27Speaker 06

  So it was like a running gag, right? And you wouldn't want to get caught with it. Cause it's extra weight too, right? But it was really realistic looking. Someone put like a lot of time and effort in this. So it was really kind of funny and good, you know, anything to break the tension. But I'll never forget, we come back maybe on the second or third mission, when my buddy Witt, they'd put it in Witt's backpack. Right? And oh my God, we just like howling laughing. He didn't realize. So we're back on, back on the fob. And Ryan, he pulls it out and like, oh God, we're just dying laughing. And then that night we walked down, it may have been the morning, we're walking to the jock. And I see outside the jock is McChrystal's backpack. Literally says McChrystal, right?

• 1:12:08Speaker 06

  And I said, hey, Witt, let's go get it and put it in his backpack. Don't think he'll love it? And Witt looks at me and he said, Kyle, either it'll be the funniest gag ever.

• 1:12:20Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:20Speaker 06

  Or we're on a plane home tomorrow.

• 1:12:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:12:24Speaker 06

  So thankfully he was the more judicious, senior smarter one says, Kyle, we're not doing it. But I thought about it briefly for a moment, but it was just good, good humor. But do also, to me, it's a sign though, that they like this, respect this, because they're having fun with this.

• 1:12:38Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, they're not going to like pull pranks on, you know, their leaders or their coworkers if they don't like them.

• 1:12:44Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:12:45Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:45Speaker 06

  It was all good fun. I guess you guys had to have one of three seven.

• 1:12:49Jack Murphy?

  We didn't have it. We didn't have a fake dick to my knowledge, but there's plenty of reindeer games that, that got played for sure.

• 1:12:59Jack Murphy?

  And oh, so in Ramadi, tell us, what was this operation brass balls? Speaking of genitalia.

• 1:13:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, that task force commander, the later became the SEAL Team Six commander. We were planning a daytime raid. And I say we, the task force that we're supporting, of course. And we're going to remain overnight, which those in themselves, most of your audience, those remain, remain overnight. You go out to the target and you literally stay there till the morning because we suspected or we'd seen intel these two, you know, bad guys are meeting at this market. And so we'll go out there in the evening and then we take over someone's house, right? Which is always

• 1:13:44Speaker 06

  kind of risky because you don't want any violence. You don't want to.

• 1:13:46Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:13:47Speaker 06

  Let, and then someone potentially innocent too, right? We're just picking a random house that we think has the best kind of footprint to hide us for the night. So I always felt a little bit bad for these people, but nonetheless, we go in there and thankfully they're cooperative. But I basically talked to the guy most of the night, just asking him questions. Hey, is anyone around us? Going to hurt us? Anyway, and then like, you know, that was a long night, just waiting there, waiting there, waiting there. Thankfully no one came. But then we roll out on foot to this market because they're only maybe 300 yards away. And as soon as you start moving out, gunfire erupts. And I fuck, and I got a transmitter with me and we hit the dirt.

• 1:14:29Speaker 06

  But I was not in a position, I couldn't, because I had guys in front of me, couldn't engage. So we move around and then finally get to the market. And the two guys would, they'd kill them. So thankfully it was resolved, but that was a, another daytime raid, as you know, it's kind of hairy.

• 1:14:46Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:47Speaker 06

  Most put you on edge, especially coming out of a local's house. I was, that was a little nerve wracking, but thankfully it all ended well.

• 1:14:56Jack Murphy?

  And then what was it like, uh, doing that job in Afghanistan? How did that differ from Iraq?

• 1:15:03Speaker 06

  So there went Kandahar and I was a senior tactical rep in country. So actually we had, I think eight different tactical assets kind of underneath me. So I had four right there in Kandahar, but still very similar. But now we're supporting multiple units. So I was supporting two different, at least my team was, I was only going on target with one. But yeah, Kandahar mountains and, you know, going after the HVT. So very similar to the SEC and bit on target. Really mission didn't change. I just had additional responsibilities for the other tactical assets.

• 1:15:39Jack Murphy?

  And they were split up across like different units?

• 1:15:41Speaker 06

  Yes. Yeah. The bureau was constantly evaluating, rightfully so, like which units to support. Cause especially as the war effort went on and everyone saw, well, J Stock has this, we'd like FBI agents assigned to us. So it was towards the end there, this is like oh nine, I think Afghanistan, like numerous units are requesting FBI support. But just like any specialized entity with smaller numbers, we couldn't support that many elements.

• 1:16:14Jack Murphy?

  Uh, anything memorable from that deployment?

• 1:16:19Speaker 06

  I remember when he first landed within that, that first 12 hours, you know, when you first get there, I was hoping to have a night off and of course we have a mission.

• 1:16:28Speaker 06

  Well, because they wanted, I take it back, like I had to ride with the Advon and it was still the previous unit. And the HRT guy wanted me to go with them. So yeah, it was just a, that was a sucky first day, you know, hiking up 9,000 foot. Uh, whatever it were with the rocks. I remember passing a couple of guys that actually had to take the rocks off because it's such a steep climb. But yeah, thankfully there was no, uh, we did a cool, uh, water mission in the Ramadi, sorry, backing up to Iraq. We went on Zodiacs up the Euphrates. That was kind of cool.

• 1:17:01Jack Murphy?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:01Speaker 06

  That was really cool. Cause I was unique, not many times, at least that CECO had ever done anything on Zodiacs before Euphrates.

• 1:17:08Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, this was the, as I recall, this happened because, uh, they wanted to find a new infiltration technique.

• 1:17:14Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:17:14Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Speaker 06

  That's exactly what it was. Yeah. So I was on that mission.

• 1:17:18Jack Murphy?

  No, no. What was that like?

• 1:17:20Speaker 06

  Super cool. So we work with Zodiacs and do dive training too. So I wasn't like.

• 1:17:24Jack Murphy?

  You're using your Ranger school training there, getting the paddles out.

• 1:17:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, we, uh, they had motors in the back, uh, for the first part, but towards the end we, we paddled. But yeah, that was definitely kind of freaky, uh, going on the river because, well, first I was, I'd never been on the Euphrates or any of those waterways in Iraq, but it's kind of like a streets, but on the, on the water. So you saw the occasional dogs howling, uh, but thankfully for the most part, it was not too many houses, like or not too much population along the waterways. So thankfully we didn't encounter anything on the infill. And then on target was normal target, we grabbed a guy and then, you know, brought him back on the boat. So overall it was just a different, unique insert, which I, I kind of love just being on the water, feeling the wind against your face.

• 1:18:13Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, that hot, uh, you know, Iraq air even at night where it feels like you're staring into a hair dryer.

• 1:18:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, you're inhaling oven fumes.

• 1:18:23Jack Murphy?

  And then back stateside, um, you, you did make that transition from sniper to assaulter. Um, and you want to talk about, uh, Puerto Rico?

• 1:18:34Speaker 06

  Yeah. So Puerto Rico, actually I was a sniper. That was my last

• 1:18:37Jack Murphy?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:18:37Speaker 06

  mission. Uh, there's a militant separatist guy down there, uh, Filiberto Rios. And he previously shot at the FBI and was a fugitive. He hit a guy, an FBI agent in the face. He robs them banks, stole like $7 million and he'd been on the run for like a decade, but he was kind of folk hero.

• 1:18:59Jack Murphy?

  On a small island.

• 1:19:00Speaker 06

  Yeah. But he's a folk hero then, right? Cause he's kind of anti-big government.

• 1:19:03Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 1:19:04Speaker 06

  He has this weird, you know, kind of cult-like following and he's deep in the woods. Uh, and we had intel that, you know, they found him. So in HRT, we went to Puerto Rico, I'll say like twice a year. Cause there's lots of criminal activity down there and they're, they're high risk and it's in this rugged hillside. So we were going to do a, you know, aerial insertion, then hike to it. And so the snipers, the first element goes up, I was on the second sniper team, or I should say the relief team. So the first team goes out, they set positions and they're watching for a couple of days and they confirm he's there.

• 1:19:45Speaker 06

  Then on that night though, he's walking around and they think that he may have seen one of their infill tracks or routes as he was walking around. So it's, it's the afternoon of day two. So they call potential compromise. So they launched the daytime assault.

• 1:20:05Jack Murphy?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:20:06Speaker 06

  Yeah. And it goes south from there. So HRT come, the assaulters come, uh, vehicle right up the front and it's a shootout. Rounds start coming both ways. We're shooting him, they're shooting, uh, and we have one of our guys gets shot really badly on the porch. Uh, he gets two right underneath the vest. He goes down to a knee. Uh, same guy wit then is right there at the window. He stands in front of the window to obscure, fire fires at the guy while two other guys go grab him, move him off the porch. You know, get him around the corner and they start providing him, you know, medical care until the ambulance can pull up.

• 1:20:48Speaker 06

  So there's a longer, like 20 minute firefight going back and forth. He then at one point shoves, opens the front door, shoves his wife out. It was like, holy moly, there's another person inside.

• 1:21:01Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Speaker 06

  Which we weren't, you know, aware of. So now we think it's just him, a few more rounds exchanged. And now we've relieved my team, sniper team relieved it. So we're out watching. And I remember in the heat, just sweltering, the sweat dripping down and I'm looking through the glass and you know, after a few hours, even though we're alternating, that's tough. And again, I'm not cut out to be the sniper and you, you started to see things like, is that a shadow? Is that him? Wait, no, I gotta blink the eyes.

• 1:21:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. When you're on glass for that long, your eyes start to go.

• 1:21:36Speaker 06

  Yeah. And even though we're switching off, you know, every 20 minutes or so, I don't care how good you are, after a couple of hours, even doing that, my eyes are just shot and I'm, I remember thinking, I, I'm not extra mission capable or not. I'm questionable, my ability to identify the target. Cause I would see a shadow and I, oh, that's not him, but I didn't see any muzzle flashes. So I obviously can't take a confirmed shot. I remember that was a few times I got the finger on the trigger, but I, I wasn't comfortable taking a shot because right, you always kind of identify your target in this backstop. And even though we didn't think it was in the side, didn't want, obviously a horrible mistake to happen.

• 1:22:15Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:22:15Speaker 06

  Which we've had, you know, in the past. And so I, I didn't shoot thankfully, or didn't even, or I should say, never saw anything.

• 1:22:23Jack Murphy?

  That warranted.

• 1:22:24Speaker 06

  That warranted it. Yeah. But I remember that was another

• 1:22:30Speaker 06

  kind of needle in the adding to like, or not, this is a camel, kind of broke the, straw broke a camel's back of me not wanting to be a sniper. And just after that, it came back and said, yeah, I'm just not cut out.

• 1:22:40Jack Murphy?

  How, how was the firefight resolved?

• 1:22:43Speaker 06

  So the next morning now, so it goes silent right after the, uh,

• 1:22:49Jack Murphy?

  So he's barricaded inside the house.

• 1:22:51Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're basically sorry, around the house and we finally got a robot like the next morning. Like timeline, maybe it was later that day. Cause I'm really exact, but we finally get a robot and we, cause now we have no, we're trying to call him out, trying to give commands, nothing, no response at all. And one of the guys thinks he'd hit him when he was, uh, he saw a glint of his outline when he opened a refrigerator door. He, it was backlit by the refrigerator light. And he took a shot. So he did say, I think I,

• 1:23:22Jack Murphy?

  So they're thinking like, maybe he bled out.

• 1:23:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, maybe bled out now. Cause now it's been so many hours. So send the robot in, robot sees him, he's on the ground and the robot, you know, has a claw and it, it kind of rotates him over and his hand is rigor moris, his hand goes like this. And in classic HRT fashion, one of the guys watching the video says, oh, I think he has a question.

• 1:23:53Speaker 06

  So yeah, that, that I probably did get him. That was the, uh,

• 1:23:56Jack Murphy?

  That was the end of that.

• 1:23:57Speaker 06

  Yeah. But we didn't know it. I mean,

• 1:23:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:59Speaker 06

  until many, many, many hours later.

• 1:24:01Jack Murphy?

  Uh, you guys are cops following procedures. I would have been like, throw approximately 100 flashbangs into that house.

• 1:24:08Speaker 06

  Level that.

• 1:24:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. Done screwing around at that point.

• 1:24:11Speaker 06

  I did love that ROE overseas. Cause there wasn't my

• 1:24:14Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, not to be like flipping about it, but yeah, the FBI doesn't use hand grenades. Like that's not a thing, you know?

• 1:24:22Speaker 06

  No, we, we have overseas. That was the only time.

• 1:24:24Jack Murphy?

  Oh, they let you carry?

• 1:24:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:25Jack Murphy?

  Right. Yeah. Makes sense.

• 1:24:28Speaker 06

  I don't know if that was officially Bureau policy. Let me just caveat that, but we carried him. I don't think they're gonna come after me now.

• 1:24:35Jack Murphy?

  I, and then tell us about, uh, Detroit.

• 1:24:38Speaker 06

  Yeah. Detroit, uh, was a ruse operation. There was a, uh,

• 1:24:46Speaker 06

  criminal who was connected to some, I want to say, uh,

• 1:24:52Speaker 06

  I forget which terrorist network, but he was,

• 1:24:56Speaker 06

  he and his four other conspirators were meeting FBI undercover agents. So we set up in this warehouse and that we were going to arrest in the warehouse, right away from his home and in our controlled environment. So he comes in and we've, you know, we've got perfect positions set up with cover and we've got a K9 and we've got it wired for audio and video and,

• 1:25:20Speaker 06

  he'd come in there right where we want him. The undercover gives a signal. He's out of the, the way. So we come out, FBI hands up, you're in arrest. You know, show us your hands. And then four guys immediately complied. Get your knees up, you go face down. He goes down, but then his hands are in his pockets. Everyone else has their hands spread out on the floor. Show us your hands, show us your hands. He doesn't do it. Team leader says, all right, we're going to release the K9. And then he walks up or it moves up with the K9 handler and says, we have three warnings. We're going to release K9, we're going to release K9. Show us your hands. So no doubts, clearly communicated. He doesn't respond and

• 1:26:04Speaker 06

  he releases Freddie. Freddie's their K9 and Freddie goes in, grabs his arm. And then he, with his other arm, pulls out a pistol, of course, from his pocket and he shoots at us, shoots at Freddie. And so Freddie took a bullet for me and the other seven guys there, you know, we eliminated the threat. But Freddie, even though we had, you know, HRT helicopter standing by and they, the medics had pre-coordinated with the vet. Like when they'd already been to the vet hospital, everything was set. He was literally in the helicopter within like minutes of being shot on the operating table with another couple of minutes and they couldn't save him.

• 1:26:43Speaker 06

  So, uh, the K9 handler, Stan Wattis, uh, or a K9 handler, he wasn't Freddie's at the time, but he did a tribute to Freddie, I have in the book, the graphite drawing. Uh, and Freddie's one of K9 heroes that he was like, so many other K9s gave their lives to protect their teammates. So I want to remember Freddie.

• 1:27:03Jack Murphy?

  What kind of dog was he?

• 1:27:04Speaker 06

  A Belgian Malinois.

• 1:27:05Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. Okay.

• 1:27:06Speaker 06

  Just a great, ferocious dog and he loved being part of the team. Like he loved, like when we're, we get kidded up, like he knew that was his job and he loved being with us and that was a painful day.

• 1:27:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. No, I'm sorry.

• 1:27:21Jack Murphy?

  As you know, it sounds like you're firing at a cyclic rate here as an HRT guy. What sort of caught your interest about, well frankly, leaving HRT and going to the Crisis, yeah, the Crisis Negotiation Unit?

• 1:27:39Speaker 06

  Very tough. It was, my wife, a lot of pressure. We were going to-

• 1:27:46Jack Murphy?

  It's the op tempo.

• 1:27:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, because we were gone most, especially the deployments years, like 50% of the time. Really, and I had two boys at the time, and I loved it. Like, those missions and the people were extraordinary. Again, I truly felt like I was just average. I never worked so hard to be average, just to be on that team. And I loved what we did and what we got to do. But it took a massive toll on my family and my body.

• 1:28:14Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 1:28:15Speaker 06

  I've had 11 surgeries, and it just accumulated effect. And where's, my wife and I were going to Hawaii, and we're like, packing the car up, ready to go to the airport, and we got alerted for a mission. And it's like December 23rd, I think. So we're going for Christmas. I said, "Honey, I got a mission." And she goes, "What are you doing?" And this is what we trained for, right? This is what we live for. And I said, "The team needs me, and I need the team." And she goes, "Well, this is going to be one of your last missions. You're going to have to decide."

• 1:28:54Speaker 06

  And so that was really like a knife, deservedly so-

• 1:28:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:58Speaker 06

  -in my heart. And I wanted to still, like, do a job at an impact, but it wasn't as risky because my wife, like, she, I don't know about you, but like, I didn't worry that much. Like, I either knew it was my time that I was going to get taken out-

• 1:29:16Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:16Speaker 06

  -or not. Because you know you worry about it too much, it'll occupy the time. So I truly didn't process it. But my wife, every night-

• 1:29:23Jack Murphy?

  Just thinking about it, yeah.

• 1:29:24Speaker 06

  -would think about it, would just torture her. So the cumulative effect of all, and my body just breaking down, I could totally put the seven surgeries on my elbows. So I thought, "All right, I'm going to transition. These guys are incredible, what they do." You know, we, you know, tenants of a hostage rescue, speed, surprise, violence of action. And I love that. And we persuaded intimidated through the dominating rooms. Well, negotiators, they slow things down. They talk about emotion, right? Words were their weapons. So it's a totally different way to look at a crisis, a totally different way to solve problems.

• 1:30:05Speaker 06

  So I really like that creative angle, because now I've learned there's really two ways, more than two ways, to look at how to solve crises and try to persuade others, to influence them, not through force. Sometimes you have to, and I get that, and that's right and dandy. But if we can avoid that, or if I can avoid, that's how I view it. If I can avoid sending my teammates back down, or entering a house where a guy's going to shoot them-

• 1:30:32Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:30:32Speaker 06

  -I'm going to do everything in my power to do that, to protect them. So that was kind of a reasons and background.

• 1:30:40Jack Murphy?

  And did you have to apply for that unit also, go through specialized training and so on?

• 1:30:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, so there's a two-week negotiation course for FBI negotiators, a basic one. And so I'd go through that, and then the unit chief, so you previously had Gary Nestor on, the first FBI CNU unit chief. So it's actually three, one or two people after him. I'd met with him several times, and say, "I'm interested in coming to the unit," and, you know, kind of nearing the end of my time. And so we talked, I talked to the other, and I knew, had known those negotiators for years because you deploy with them.

• 1:31:19Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:31:19Speaker 06

  And so got more and more integrated, did some training with them, and thankfully, you know, they then accepted me into the unit. So there is a application process, you got to apply, but I kind of had the in, just because I was there and had done it. So, but I enjoyed it. I really, I relish kind of that mental chess game now.

• 1:31:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, the two weeks, I mean, that must have been just an introductory course.

• 1:31:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just the first introductory course.

• 1:31:46Jack Murphy?

  You start taking like, like, psychology courses? I mean, what's the background of one of these guys?

• 1:31:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we worked with a behavioral analysis unit as well. But yeah, there's several, like, extracurricular activities and training that you would do. So like, we sent guys in that unit to the London Metropolitan Police Negotiators Training. So they sent me there for two weeks. So I did that for two weeks. Then I went to other one-week courses. You really learned how to effectively communicate. And more than that, like, be a good listener. Because I, I know I wasn't like the best listener. So this is fascinating. When my middle son was 11 years old, after I'd been in CNU for a year, he said, "Dad, you speak to us differently after you've been a negotiator."

• 1:32:39Speaker 06

  I said, "Shut up, kid." No, I didn't say that. But I was like, just stunned that my 11-year-old son was so observant-

• 1:32:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:48Speaker 06

  -that picked up on it. And I didn't consciously choose the way I was speaking. But yeah, through the communication, you know, training through the drills, and we did a lot of role playing, a lot of exercises of fake negotiations. Like, also, like, we'd have, you could call in to help with suicide hotlines and do other techniques to help you learn to empathize with people. So it really takes you at least two solid years. And the normal, I was kind of lucky, because normally you'd be a field negotiator, like, field SWAT. You'd normally be that for five or six years, and then come back to CNU. So I was very, very fortunate, lucky to just do it in there.

• 1:33:27Jack Murphy?

  And if I recall correctly from reading some of these books, there are historically at the FBI been seriously big tensions between the negotiators and the HRT guys.

• 1:33:38Speaker 06

  Well, you go back to, right, Waco-

• 1:33:40Jack Murphy?

  Yep.

• 1:33:41Speaker 06

  -and unfortunately, massive disconnect between the two. Like, they weren't even co-located. And tactical didn't listen to negotiators, didn't really see the need or value to it. Because tactical thinks like tactical, right? They want to use kind of themselves as the tool-

• 1:33:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:00Speaker 06

  It's quicker, right? You're more efficient, and the job's done. And I understand that from a tactical perspective. But now, if we can resolve it, if we can get, like, the branch of it, is we can get even, what, they got 25 kids out? Like, the negotiator saved 25 kids' lives.

• 1:34:16Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:34:17Speaker 06

  Like, that's remarkable, right? Those 25 people now, and I could be off on the numbers, but living like the rest of their lives due to the negotiator. So the fact that that disconnect, like, that bothered me, and there were significant changes the FBI made after that. So I made the Critical and Response Group to be the umbrella to house both. And they did work together. There still was, remains, and I even probably to this day, a little bit of tension between the two, because they just think differently. And unless you've been in both worlds, right, they each speak different languages. And I, one of the reasons they took me is that unit chief said, "I really want and need someone who has a HRT

• 1:34:58Speaker 06

  background, so that we have more credibility with HRT." So really, his decision too, and Gary Nestor also recognized that too. And he brought on the first former HRT guy, but it's very rare.

• 1:35:13Jack Murphy?

  To help begin bridging that gap there.

• 1:35:15Speaker 06

  I'm sorry?

• 1:35:15Jack Murphy?

  To bridge the gap-

• 1:35:16Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:35:16Jack Murphy?

  -between the two.

• 1:35:17Speaker 06

  Actually, absolutely, to bridge that gap.

• 1:35:20Jack Murphy?

  And you got involved in some, like, pretty high-profile operations as a negotiator.

• 1:35:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, first, the big one, well, Michael Scott Moore was a big kidnapping case. He was kidnapped by Somali pirates for two and a half years. And that was the first time I negotiated with a pirate. But yeah, I've negotiated with pirates, kidnappers, and terrorists.

• 1:35:41Jack Murphy?

  So they sent you, were you like, working with like SEAL Team Six over in Somalia and trying to work that?

• 1:35:47Speaker 06

  So we did work with those guys. This was exceptionally long case. And those guys were great. I remember like a year into it-

• 1:35:58Speaker 06

  Where the pirates demanded, well, first off, he was kidnapped. And then Jesse McCann was saved like two days later.

• 1:36:07Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:09Speaker 06

  And so his ransom, or yeah, Mike Somer's ransom was $20 million. And like, it was like comical, like we support the mother, right? The US government doesn't pay any ransoms, but we support the mother. And so I'm right there with the mother, marvelous, fantastic individual, like super stoic, awesome. But she doesn't have $20 million, it's not even realistic, some. So the first like year was really difficult trying to find like a reasonable even bargaining position with these pirates.

• 1:36:37Jack Murphy?

  Where did they snatch Michael up from? What was his deal?

• 1:36:40Speaker 06

  He went to Somalia to write a book about piracy.

• 1:36:42Jack Murphy?

  Oh shit.

• 1:36:44Speaker 06

  And his bodyguard driver turned on him.

• 1:36:46Jack Murphy?

  I guess he got the experience to write the book. I mean, there's that, probably not the way you wanted it, but so how, how did you guys resolve that one?

• 1:36:54Speaker 06

  So there was a great idea. So he was taken aboard the Naham Three, which is this Taiwanese fishing vessel that they had also hijacked and they had several other prisoners on board and they like had killed the captain, the captain's in like the freezer.

• 1:37:09Jack Murphy?

  Jesus.

• 1:37:10Speaker 06

  So these are, you know, brutal individuals and there were some sickened assets. This is one of my trips down to the damn neck because we're, this is before there's like a true fusion cell. Now there's a hostage recovery fusion cell, which is great. This is before that. So we're just on our own, kind of collaborating, working together, but they invited us down. And Vance and me, my kind of mentor in CNU, anyway, they had, I thought one of those brilliant ideas ever. We had sickened coverage and he was fishing on the side of the boat like every day around three, three-ish. And they said, well, what if he jumps in? Can he swim? I said, yeah, he was a surfer. He was a California surfer.

• 1:37:54Speaker 06

  I said, I, you know, I almost guarantee he'll swim. And so they started developing a plan. I won't go into too much details, but you can figure out pretty easily what their plan was. And again, we're a lot, we, at least FBI headquarters, we've got this brilliant plan. We love it, fully supportive, like, let's do it. We're going nowhere in negotiations. Can't get enough of the 20 million. And then like a week later, right? So now we're spinning up, NSC level is considerate. He jumps off the side and tries to escape on his own.

• 1:38:28Jack Murphy?

  Oh, so you guys didn't have like comm's, like even clandestine?

• 1:38:32Speaker 06

  We, we tried to get a message to him and we literally were crafting the message and putting it, it was en route to get to him within like a few days, we think. So literally he, he didn't know it and I, I can't.

• 1:38:43Jack Murphy?

  Right, yeah, he had no idea.

• 1:38:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, we were, we were pretty close to get him the message and the, the boys would have had an incredible mission there.

• 1:38:52Jack Murphy?

  There was a, um, years ago, when everything was really going south in Libya, the Swiss government arrested a member of the Gaddafi family.

• 1:39:03Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:39:03Jack Murphy?

  And so the Libyan government responded by arresting two Swiss businessmen in Libya. And they were being held near the coast and they let these guys, they're on house arrest. It wasn't that bad. They're, and they were being allowed to swim in the Mediterranean and go out there, go for a swim. And the Swiss special forces guys got tasked like, hey, figure out how to get these guys out. And they came up with a plan that they'd rent the sailboat, come down the coast, jump off the opposite end of it with rebreathers and then come in and grab these guys that have oxygen tanks and rebreathers for them, put them on that and then swim back to the boat.

• 1:39:39Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:39:40Jack Murphy?

  And, um, it, it never got approved for like political reasons, you know? I think the Swiss probably paid some money and got the.

• 1:39:46Speaker 06

  Right, yeah.

• 1:39:47Jack Murphy?

  But I mean, it's interesting, like maybe they could have pulled it off.

• 1:39:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, I, again, I think, because the main thing is if you're comfortable in the water, right? And him being a surfer, I felt.

• 1:39:58Jack Murphy?

  That, that was one of the things, because one of the guys had like, maybe like a heart condition or something and he didn't feel that he could swim underwater.

• 1:40:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:40:05Jack Murphy?

  That was part of why it didn't happen.

• 1:40:07Speaker 06

  Yeah, that will make your plan. But I love it, I love the creativity.

• 1:40:11Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Outside the box thinking and like it would work and it's relatively low risk by comparing Oh, yeah. To fast roping operators onto a boat.

• 1:40:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, border assault, yeah.

• 1:40:24Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, and then you got involved in the aftermath, in your aftermath of the Boston Marathon bombing.

• 1:40:33Speaker 06

  Yes, so, uh, on Friday, of course, the bomb goes off and then Thursday, we were releasing the pictures and the bombers are identified and they go kill MIT police officer and there's a big fight out in Watertown. And so I was flown up, uh, Friday morning from Quantico as the kind of senior FBI negotiator, even though there's much more senior people than me, but we, you know, we, actually we had Mark Thunderclaw, it was a different location in Boston. He was, uh, with HRT hitting another location. Uh, but I was at the Watertown Mall and if you remember when he was identified, people went on the media, like his uncle said they're losers, these guys are horrible.

• 1:41:18Speaker 06

  His aunt went on and like, she said, oh, they're set up by the police, right?

• 1:41:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, she was a nut.

• 1:41:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, she was nutty. And then his wrestling coach actually went on CNN and spoke positively about him. So even though no one thought there'd be a negotiated resolution, I didn't think be negotiated resolution, right? But it's my job to be prepared just in case. So I called the wrestling coach, spoke for like an hour, learned his nickname and some background details on him. And I said, thanks, maybe we'll see you tonight, Friday night, you know, as we're getting set here.

• 1:41:49Jack Murphy?

  Uh, this, this is the younger cousin.

• 1:41:51Speaker 06

  Yes, the younger brother.

• 1:41:53Jack Murphy?

  The brother.

• 1:41:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, they're two brothers, so the younger one.

• 1:41:57Jack Murphy?

  Did you guys know that the older one had been killed yet?

• 1:41:59Speaker 06

  Well, yes, we knew because he ran him over, but that wasn't publicly released yet.

• 1:42:03Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha, gotcha.

• 1:42:04Speaker 06

  Which is kind of a key point later I'll get to. So I'm at the Watertown Mall and remember the city is, the nation's on edge, right? Because after the firefight with the police, the younger brother drove over his older brother and then fled and then the city's on lockdown, they're looking for him, can't find him. City goes off lockdown at 6:00 PM Friday. Homeowner goes to his backyard, sees blood on his boat, he calls 911. And hundreds of officers self-deploy to the backyard on Franklin Street.

• 1:42:37Jack Murphy?

  And we all heard it like on live television.

• 1:42:39Speaker 06

  Yep, you heard those hundreds of rounds.

• 1:42:41Jack Murphy?

  Get the Bearcat up.

• 1:42:43Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I'm, I'm like a quarter mile away and I thought, man, I've been in Fallujah and Mosul and Tal Afar and I haven't heard that since being overseas. And I thought, oh, thank God, it's probably done though, at least, you know, the guy's killed. Cause we were staged, like there's thousands of us, probably 2,000 in Arsenal Mall, that was the law enforcement staging area and HRT was there. Uh, and we heard that and again, kind of relieved thinking, okay, good, it's all done with, we'll get to go back home. And then I see the HRT like S3 running towards the team, which is like a hundred yards away at the parking lot. So I thought, man, that guy never runs, right? Like I literally thought, he, he's only running because they got the mission.

• 1:43:20Speaker 06

  So I run over there and sure enough, uh, it said, HRT is, uh, eight guys, go deploy and take charge of the site. It's total chaos and mayhem. And so I was there with the team leader, uh, and I said, hey, I'm a negotiator at the time. I said, hey, why don't you let me hop in? And he goes, Kyle, we're not going to need a negotiator. And I said, I get it. And this is a guy I'd worked with thankfully for eight years. So I was able to gently push back and this is exactly, I think I was just in the right place, the right time with the right background. And I said, I think you should take me just in case. It's better to have me and, and you know, I'm not going to get in the way than not have me and need me. He goes, all right, all right, hop in the last vehicle. So it's like gentle nudge, but.

• 1:44:05Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:06Speaker 06

  Very glad I did. And then my two other negotiation partners, uh, they follow in a separate vehicle, so like ninth in the convoy. And we drive short distance, but then we're hit by all the other traffic. So then we got to dismount and then we're climbing fences and my two partners will just say they're healthy negotiators. Mark and Vance, just great guys, but they can't scale fences. And so I'm now all alone, but we're at the site now. And meanwhile, the Bearcat had come up, they tried to flip him out using the arm, which is a good idea.

• 1:44:42Jack Murphy?

  Is this when he's hiding in the boat?

• 1:44:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:44:44Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha.

• 1:44:44Speaker 06

  So he's still in the boat, hundreds of rounds are fired, someone says, cease fire, they hold their fire. Massachusetts State Police Bearcat comes up, tries to flip him with its arm out of the boat, but he can't, doesn't have enough leverage. They command him to come out, come out. It, it doesn't have any effect. And that's right then, when we arrived and the team leader, I'll call him Big D, just did a magnanimous, awesome job, like instilling order into the chaos. This is in Patriots Day, actually did a decent job with it because it was, it was a horrendous, like talking about the perimeter, 360.

• 1:45:17Jack Murphy?

  The Boston PD was pretty overwhelmed, I think.

• 1:45:20Speaker 06

  Well, this isn't even, yes, in Boston PD, this is out of their jurisdiction.

• 1:45:23Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:45:23Speaker 06

  They were there and then they don't have jurisdiction there. So imagine like, like literally 40 different agencies from Massachusetts State Police to, I saw Department of State guys there.

• 1:45:34Jack Murphy?

  What?

• 1:45:35Speaker 06

  With a vest and a gun. I thought, what, Department of State? Like I didn't say anything verbally, but like my mind, like what the fuck are you doing here? So it was like a circus of all circuses and obviously I've been in a few circuses, but this was like total mayhem because there was no command and control, the 360 perimeter, every, and they'd only, not only missed him, they missed the boat. Like it's embarrassing to be professional law enforcement to say this, but there are rounds, I remember walking up, seeing in like the garage behind him.

• 1:46:07Jack Murphy?

  Jeez.

• 1:46:08Speaker 06

  And I thought, what were you people shooting at? Right? Cause we're responsible, every round we fire is the FBA agents. So Big D, then he still instills order into the chaos, just great job, but did it without like being a jerk, but you know, definitely taking charge.

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• 1:47:25Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  911 Nashville returns.

• 1:47:37Speaker 05

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:47:42Speaker 05

  All sins swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:47:55Speaker 06

  Like I've rarely seen someone, I've never seen someone do it so well, just amazing job. And he says, all right, we're going to deploy some 40 mic mics.

• 1:48:05Jack Murphy?

  But some CS gas.

• 1:48:07Speaker 06

  Well, flashbangs.

• 1:48:08Jack Murphy?

  Oh, gotcha.

• 1:48:09Speaker 06

  Sorry. Into the boat, and we got overhead MSP, Massachusetts Police Helicopters got FLIR. So we can see a warm body, but there's no response. So we know there's at least one warm body, but we don't know if he's.

• 1:48:21Jack Murphy?

  And the fear is that there could be more explosive devices and.

• 1:48:25Speaker 06

  Yes, so as much as he killed four people and seriously wounded 250 others, I wanted him dead as much as anyone. But remember, at the time, we didn't know, is there another terror cell in New York City or another bomb waiting to go off in DC?

• 1:48:39Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:48:40Speaker 06

  So our goal is to take him alive for that reason and that reason alone, right? What other intel is out there risking American lives? But like the desire, the thirst for vengeance was palpable. And that's why I think those, so many officers kind of fired and sympathetic fired also. So anyway, Derek does a, or excuse me, the team leader does flashbangs, no response. And now we're kind of all just sitting there, at least I'm thinking like, man, what are we going to do next?

• 1:49:07Jack Murphy?

  Right?

• 1:49:08Speaker 06

  We've raised every level of lethal force. And normally a pyramid, as you start with physical presence, then you go verbal commands, then you go physical force, then you go lethal force. Well, now we've started at the top, we have nowhere to go. And word comes down, FBI Director said to negotiate. And then I heard on the radio, Kyle, you're up. And for a moment, I thought, man, this sucks that only my two partners. And I'm not concerned with my safety, but I'm concerned that every word I'm about to say is going to be scrutinized and questioned every word I don't say.

• 1:49:48Jack Murphy?

  For sure.

• 1:49:49Speaker 06

  And I got 400 officers here, listening to my every word, along with FBI Headquarters and God knows who else I've read and CNN's down the street. So I had to take, as I start walking to the house, because I thought I'd get a second story vantage point, I literally paused though at the entryway, and I just took like three deep breaths, and they said, you can do this, right? I've been in shooter situations before, go do your job. It just took me like five seconds, but again, just that quick kind of self pep talk, and then went up and then put my hands against the window and said, my name's Kyle, I'm with the police, I'm here to talk with you. And for 10 minutes, it's like silence.

• 1:50:32Speaker 06

  So I'm trying to not sound like a parrot, and which is really hard when you're having a one-way conversation with someone you don't even know. And I said, if you can't hear me, like, you know, bang on the floor, like move the tarp, just let me know you're alive. And I'm trying to like frame the conversation as respective, I know you're probably hurt, scared, confused, demonstrate empathy, I'm talking about this path to influence in the book, but I'm using these steps, which we learn as negotiators. And if I, after 10 minutes, he says, water. And I said, perfect in my mind. And I said, I've got buckets of ice cold water for you.

• 1:51:07Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:08Speaker 06

  Outside the boat. You gotta come off the boat to get the water. And he said, I can't move. I said, you gotta move. And like Headquarters is calling for updates and thankfully by now Vince and Mark had arrived and they're next to the team leader. So now they're coordinating and on scene as well. So he actually called me and I saw my phone ring, I'm like, Vince, why are you calling me? I'm right in the middle of this. He's all, good job, you know, bring up the coach. Oh yeah, thanks. I hang up on him, he calls back, I hang up again, he calls back, he's all, hey idiot, Kyle, I'm going to be your coach via the phone, just put me on, you know, mute. But I was so myopically focused.

• 1:51:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:50Speaker 06

  I didn't even think about it. So I kept him like, you know, way back there and he was real quiet, but he gave me a good input and a couple of points. And after like 20 minutes, I brought up the coach, which I should have brought up earlier, but I said, hey, I spoke with your coach today, I spoke with Coach Payak, and he wants to see you come out of this alive. And then when I said his nickname, that was like the magic moment. I said, I know who you are, Jahar, I know who you are. And his like head bolted up from the bottom of the boat, first time I saw like a physical reaction from him. And so that he knew that I knew who he was. And then that's kind of what opened the door to him moving. He said, I can't move, so you gotta pull yourself, move. So he moves like an inch, I can't move anymore.

• 1:52:33Speaker 06

  I said, finish the match, you gotta finish the match. And I said, I also wrestled. All right, I wrestled in high school, I know what it's like to be alone on the mat. And so that connection point of the wrestling and again, me doing my homework, being prepared, priming myself for that moment, which no one thought was possible, but that resulted in, you know, hour and a half later, he's on the side of the boat and he has that one leg over, this is probably that iconic picture, you know, and he's got the lasers on him and he's got just his right like knee and back, or right knee and below is inside the boat. And he says like, he's hurt badly, he can't move that leg over. And I said, you got, you're eight feet above, just move it over and just kind of fall to the grass and then we'll get you medical care, you'll get to see all the people outside

• 1:53:16Speaker 06

  the boat that love you, you get food, water, medical care, all those good things, if you stay in the boat, you die in the boat. Those are some things I was using to encourage him off. Anyway, he said, I can't, and then he like falls forward, like he's almost losing consciousness now, then he comes back up and I said, come on, get off, you know, move your foot over. He says, I can't, I can't, he like falls forward.

• 1:53:35Jack Murphy?

  Was there some prohibition against you like grabbing him by the sleeve at this point?

• 1:53:38Speaker 06

  Well, what's going through our mind is, is this a trap or is he truly like exhausted?

• 1:53:45Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:46Speaker 06

  And so I'm talking to my team leader and I said, I think he's, I believe him. From my perception, I'm pretty good view of him and now he's a compliant subject, he's listening to me, like I had him lift up his shirt to show that he has no, nothing on his chest and he's following my directions. I said, I think we should go grab him. He said, all right, so talk him through this, explain what's going to happen. So Big D again, talking about magnanimous job, he doesn't have, pick HRT guys to go put the cuffs on him, he picks six locals. And he says, I'm going to go up with you guys, but I want you guys to have the honor of cuffing him. Like that's true leadership.

• 1:54:22Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, he's willing to step into the background.

• 1:54:25Speaker 06

  And give, again, the credit and honor to others, which are just so magnanimous, just what a great leader. And he knew, you know, HRT, we're going to fly back the next day, but this is the locals arrest, kind of Boston's arrest to make. So he walks up with them, I talk them through it, hey, you guys are, come listen, by the way, you see the red dot on your laser? Yep, listen to me and you'll live if you make a further movement, we're going to kill you. We're going to shoot you right where the red dots are. So it's very clear, like laying out the consequences for non-compliance. And I said, do you understand? Yes. Then I said, okay, they're going to move forward. They move forward, basically yanked him off, cuffed him, they used Sean Collier's cuffs, the MIT police officer that he and his brother killed, and then shoved him in the ambulance.

• 1:55:10Speaker 06

  And then team leader said, hey Kyle, are you riding with the ambulance? Sure, because we're going to transfer custody, you know, now he's in officially FBI custody. And then like Headquarters is calling me, I talked to the boss quick as assistant director, explaining, hey, we got him, he's alive, is he conscious? Well, he's going in and out of consciousness and it's like a 10-minute ride to the hospital. All right, you're going to be met by two FBI agents there, take him to surgery and they'll take him from you in surgery. Got it? You know, hung up. And then I sit back down, you know, next to him and he reaches out and grabs my hand. And the bomber asks me, how's my brother?

• 1:55:46Jack Murphy?

  Oh, is that the first time that came up?

• 1:55:49Speaker 06

  Yes. So now I'm in a dilemma. Do I tell him, you ran over your brother, you killed him? Or do I withhold that information, knowing that we want to, I know about the more bombs and this stuff, we have a lot more questions for you.

• 1:56:05Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:56:06Speaker 06

  I don't want to ruin rapport or also tell him a lie, later come back and make the Bureau look bad. So I said, I'll chuck in them for you.

• 1:56:17Speaker 06

  Cause I didn't want to have a good answer. I didn't want to lie to him, but I didn't also want to tell him the truth yet. And then we got to the hospital and escorted him into the surgery. Pretty cool. It's two FBI agents in like surgical gear. You know, guys wearing a, uh, you know, the badge around his neck. And actually I recognized one of the guys from headquarters I've seen before. Just nodded and they took him into surgery and that was the end of the Boston Marathon bombing.

• 1:56:40Jack Murphy?

  Wow. And that cat is chilling in super max now, isn't he?

• 1:56:43Speaker 06

  He got the death penalty, but of course he's appealing it and

• 1:56:46Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:47Speaker 06

  But yeah, he's sitting in super max.

• 1:56:51Jack Murphy?

  That's a wild one.

• 1:56:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, that was crazy.

• 1:56:56Jack Murphy?

  The other like high profile operation you were involved in or one of them as a, as a negotiator. The famous bunker boy rescue.

• 1:57:06Speaker 06

  Boy in the bunker was one of the most challenging FBI kidnapping operations in our history. Yeah. Uh, crazy deranged guy goes on a school bus, kills the bus driver, very heroic bus driver.

• 1:57:19Speaker 06

  I should back up like this guy goes in the bus, is pointing the pistol at the guy, you know, from same distance as here and the bus driver, Charles Poland, heroic, heroically refuses. He says, you're not going to take the kids off my bus today. Like what a just incredible

• 1:57:35Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, balls.

• 1:57:37Speaker 06

  Balls and says, no. And he's, and it's like a three minute video from inside the bus. Truly difficult to watch, but I've watched it a hundred times and he does end up killing him, but just, I always like to mention that because true American hero there trying to defend his kids. And he grabs the first kid next to him and takes him, uh, Ethan to his underground bunker, which he'd spent over a year preparing this lair. And he had IEDs, additional weapons in there. And it was all set up for this confrontation with law enforcement.

• 1:58:06Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. What, did he have some kind of like grievance with the town or something like that?

• 1:58:10Speaker 06

  Well, he hated government, especially big government. And he'd had multiple interactions with the law enforcement and he had a, he was an injustice collector is what BAU described. And he had a pending charge of brandishing a weapon, uh, to be in court like the next day. So we think that was the final trigger which led to this, but he had a series of assaults and domestic abuse. He was horrible.

• 1:58:34Jack Murphy?

  It's, yeah, it's probably pointless for me to apply my logic to it, but I'm thinking like, okay, you don't like the government. So you kidnap a kid off a school bus. How, how does that work?

• 1:58:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's, and that's a great way to put it. And I try to tell people that because I get asked this all the time. Uh, you can't apply logical thinking to what he did.

• 1:58:51Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:53Speaker 06

  Because he, he wanted an audience to tell his story about all his grievances. So in his mind, he was fully justified to kill the bus driver and take this kid hostage to tell his story of grievances. Yeah, it's.

• 1:59:06Jack Murphy?

  So tell us about, uh, CNU and HRT getting spun up for this thing.

• 1:59:12Speaker 06

  So yeah, I remember, uh, my partner and I, Vance, same guy in Boston, really was my mentor, just probably one of the best negotiators in the world. And he and I got the tag for the mission, uh, on the day one, when it just happened on Monday. We saw like the video and we met with the behavioral analysis and we just watched that. And I remember we were debating with them and they said, well, maybe he's taking the five year old for sexual gratification. Cause he also wrote a note, which we found on the bus. And we looked at the note, there's no mention of wanting the kid for that. And there's nothing in the video to indicate that. And I remember it was the first time like professionally disagreeing, like, no, we, I don't see that. We don't see that. This is

• 1:59:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. And amongst his long rap sheet.

• 1:59:50Speaker 06

  Right. Yeah. Horrible as the guy is, like, there's no behavioral indicators, right? We always, that's what I learned as a negotiator. Like you base your assessment off of behavioral indicator. You don't just base it off a gut feeling.

• 2:00:02Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 2:00:02Speaker 06

  Like there's no behavioral indicators that he wanted to molest a child. Although again, we had to be prepared, like God forbid, but just an initial assessment. And then that night, we actually got the, the order to deploy. We're going to fly out in the mornings. We flew out the second morning and we rolled with them on the plane and, you know, we're going over, goes back or an HRT is doing all their gear prep on the plane. And when we landed, I, it was Midland City and thankfully we had our own, you know, the bureau plane was always nice to fly into the nearest airport. Although it was nicknamed a, or it was named Freddie two in honor of Freddie. But I always felt like when everything fly, I don't know if this is a tangent, but it sounded like an old washing machine.

• 2:00:43Jack Murphy?

  Is this like a Gulfstream?

• 2:00:44Speaker 06

  Rattling. No, no, it was a like seven thirty seven.

• 2:00:46Jack Murphy?

  Oh, no kidding.

• 2:00:47Speaker 06

  But like a thirty five year old seven thirty seven, which sounded like a washing machine. Like you'd hear these moving parts every time he landed and took off. We always thought it was going to blow up on us. But anyway, we were on Freddie two, I believe for that mission. And yeah, it was a, really it's, it's just a interesting story because he was so prepared and again, had IEDs on the property. He had one inside the bunker that was, uh, remote wired detonated to outside the bunker. And then inside he had another one, which was like a, like a 22 against a shotgun primer into a bigger IED. So he had both those IEDs. He threatened to detonate if anyone came down.

• 2:01:31Speaker 06

  It was just one way in, one way out. So talking about like the worst fatal funnel ever. And we had structural engineers, we had army ground penetrating radar. Like we had almost every asset you can dream of to help us, but there was no way in, if we tunnel from the side, it would potentially collapse in these 2,000 pounds of dirt.

• 2:01:49Jack Murphy?

  And the HRT guys built, uh, like full scale mockup, right?

• 2:01:53Speaker 06

  Well, one of the former SEALs on the HRT called Gulfport CB battalion. And this is like Tuesday and says, hey, can you guys help us build a mockup? And how great is this? Within like three hours, I don't know how long it takes to load up. They had like two 18 wheelers driving from Gulfport to Midland City. And that day, the CBs are making the mockup. Like incredible. This, this guy's rock. As you've seen what they do overseas, it was just awesome. So they're building the mockup. So we're doing rehearsals, HRT's in rehearsals, but I was going over there just checking out as well, just to get an uh, idea of it. Cause we were using negotiation with him to gather intel for the creation of the bunker.

• 2:02:34Speaker 06

  Right. Cause he would kind of boast about it and we interviewed all the neighbors, of course, because we're trying to gather every bit of intel.

• 2:02:40Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 2:02:40Speaker 06

  For

• 2:02:41Jack Murphy?

  What construction materials did he buy?

• 2:02:43Speaker 06

  Exactly. We're going through purchase history, everything you can think of. Cause we had hundreds of people on the ground. Uh, I actually remember like day three, I think we have daily updates of the director. And you know, the in there was like the special agent charge, the HRT commander. And then Vance was the lead negotiator. Cause he's a deputy, the BAU rep and like the sheriff. So that was like the key kind of leadership group, which really I was just like a negotiator. So for me to be even involved, even though I was the deputy, uh, it was a great feeling to know that I kind of had a seat at the table.

• 2:03:17Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 2:03:17Speaker 06

  Which I felt like, I don't know, it just was like a cool professional moment even to be there.

• 2:03:22Jack Murphy?

  How, how did you and Vance get comms with the?

• 2:03:25Speaker 06

  Oh, so the Atlanta, this is that night one, we weren't there yet. The Atlanta, excuse me, yeah, Mobile called Atlanta FBI to help them initially. So before even HRT got there, some Atlanta negotiators were there.

• 2:03:38Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha.

• 2:03:39Speaker 06

  And they successfully, he'd set up the speaking tube. It's such a crazy thing. He dug a hundred and seventy foot underground. Like foot deep PVC, PVC tube, speaking apparatus. So that if, you know, the bunker's over there a hundred and seventy feet away, he would talk to people. So that was where he first told law enforcement. He called 911, by the way. After he drops a kid in the bunker, he comes up, calls 911 and says, talk to me at the speaking

• 2:04:04Jack Murphy?

  Come to my speaking tube.

• 2:04:06Speaker 06

  Yes. And the first responders do that. Uh, Bill Rafferty is the first negotiator to stand at the speaking tube. And they're just talking to him. And of course that night we bring up an SABT, a bomb tech and they x-rayed and what's in the speaking tube? An IED.

• 2:04:20Jack Murphy?

  Oh shit.

• 2:04:21Speaker 06

  Yeah. So they were talking. So the negotiators that night persuaded him to accept a throw phone. Yeah. As a separate communication device. And like any good negotiator does, you phrase it from his perspective, benefits him. And so they, uh, they'll do that to him. So that was how we're talking to

• 2:04:36Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha, gotcha.

• 2:04:37Speaker 06

  So it was safer and obviously better for us not to have someone standing at that IED. We just surrounded with sandbags after that.

• 2:04:43Jack Murphy?

  And what was, as you get, um, you know, you and your buddy Vance open up communications from your end. I mean, what's your assessment of this guy?

• 2:04:52Speaker 06

  Well, day two, I, I should back up. When I first saw that Ethan was the five year old, he needed medications. So he needed, he was Asperger's syndrome, uh, and he needed three times a day meds. So the negotiator is able to talk him into letting us go. Tax will go up to deliver meds three times a day. So we're willing to do a target analysis three times a day. So day two, I saw like, you know, four HRT buddies go with the two local sheriffs. And I remember watching that. I thought, well, wait, they're talking to him, even though we have the throw phone, they're talking about the bunker lid. So I went to the HRT commander and said, hey, boss, like anytime there's communications, you should have a negotiator there. Let me go be the coach to that sheriff's deputy to have continuity with the same guy talking to him.

• 2:05:37Speaker 06

  And I'll be his coach. I'll assess and provide him talking points and be right there at the lid. He said, yeah, do it. So I became the forward, like deployed negotiator, even though I'm not drunk, he talking to him, I'm talking, coaching the guy with him. So I'm right there though, with everything. And we had 25 person team. So it was not just me and Vance. We were leading the team, but they had 25 other negotiators. Cause now we're doing eight hour shifts and you got every hour, you gotta send an update to headquarters. It was like a beast of an operation.

• 2:06:07Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:08Speaker 06

  So yeah, the story on day three is like, again, we got a hundred FBI personnel plus on scene. And director asks us, okay, how many calls were there today? Well, sir, we had two calls. That's like six PM at night. Two calls?

• 2:06:23Speaker 06

  You know, implying, what are you guys doing? What's going on? Why only two calls? Uh, well, sir, each call was four and a half hours long.

• 2:06:31Speaker 06

  Right? So it was like nine hours of calls. Um, and you know, it's a classic example. It's tough to lead a crisis from far, right? You second guessing your subject matter experts on the ground. But so there's no more questions about the number of calls after that. Uh, but day six or day five is a pivotal event.

• 2:06:54Speaker 06

  We had an opportunity. He, which is remarkable thing about this, this is the bad guy stuck in a hole. Uh, there's this garage door spring on top of the hatch lid, which he installed these two garage door springs to help lift it up. It was so heavy. So imagine like 200 pound piece of wood or 200 pound square roof lid. He had the springs on to help him lift it up. And one of the springs had come off in the storm. And he said, well, I want to help you guys lift up that hatch lid to attach the second spring. So it's easier for you guys to lift the lid to put medication down.

• 2:07:30Speaker 06

  And I heard him say it on the phone. Like think about this is the bad guy offering to help the police, help law enforcement. And I thought, hey, I ran to the commander. I said, I heard this. I say, boss, he may, he's willing to come underneath and lift the hatch lid up. Like, that's going to operate it right there.

• 2:07:47Jack Murphy?

  And See if he can snatch.

• 2:07:49Speaker 06

  Yeah. What do you, what do you think, boss? So the boss said, I love it. So we went and, uh, I shared it with HRT and they talked about having a guy right there. And if he could confirm that the trial wasn't there, right? Then it's, we don't have differences in our lethal force directives, but it was nice to know that at least the boss said, I, I mean, this Ethan being an imminent danger.

• 2:08:14Speaker 06

  Because we, we truly don't change our lethal force, but it's just nice to our boss say those words. Anyway. So we go up, do the limp, do the medicine delivery that day, which is all normal. And then we say, uh, can you help us lift the hatch lid now? And so I'm right there. The hatch lid opened up and I can see his white hair. Cause I'm like three feet away. And actually, you know, operator's right there, but he's got to wait, right? To confirm that shot. And it lifts up. And then right as the operators, I can see the finger on the trigger. Right? It's coming back and he caught like a glint of sunlight, like off the barrel or something.

• 2:08:53Speaker 06

  He sees it, drops it. So it's only like half a second. And I'm talking like much longer to happen like half a second. He goes, you motherfuckers. You just tried to kill me and I was trying to help you. So we lost like all rapport and it really spiraling downward. He's yelling at us and I should have pulled Tony was the sheriff's. He did a great job, but it's like not a productive conversation, right? We're just, he's getting more emotional, more pissed. Finally, finally pull him off and said, we like, we're done here. We're nothing good is coming from you talking to him. And I probably, I'd let him talk probably too long. But anyway, we come back and

• 2:09:32Speaker 06

  they did call and say, oh, it was the new guy. The whole Vance came up with a good excuse. He was just, you know, too close and he'll never come back. Bullshit. He doesn't believe it. So it was like fingers are twiddling and then he gives the deadline and he says, by this is day six, the next morning, you know, I want a female reporter to come inside the bunker. That was his whole request. A female reporter to tell a story, then I'll release Ethan. And he knew there's no other way around it. Like a reporter has to come in the bunker, then I'll release Ethan. And we're never going to put a female reporter in there.

• 2:10:05Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:05Speaker 06

  Even though we had a short guy, even HRT operator said he put on a wig.

• 2:10:11Speaker 06

  It's kind of a funny aside, but we're not going to, we never also put a solo guy. All right. It's always going to be two people.

• 2:10:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. I mean, even a female FBI agent, you're not going to put somebody in.

• 2:10:20Speaker 06

  Exactly. Yeah. So it was never seriously considered, but we had to, right? So it's a six by eight foot space. And this is where I think almost one of those moments that I was kind of meant to be there, lucky to be there, fortunate to be there. Uh, because again, I wanted, now I know, right? My brothers have to go in that hole. But how can we reduce risks? How can negotiators set them up? So how can I set up them for success? And I noticed that before, so imagine six by eight foot room and the ladder was here. So I can move that, sorry. We would drop toys down every couple of days for Ethan to play with. And I noticed they took him to the far corner over here by the bed.

• 2:11:02Speaker 06

  And I thought, if we deliver toys to Ethan and then somehow lure dykes up the ladder.

• 2:11:07Jack Murphy?

  It would be a separation.

• 2:11:08Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 2:11:09Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:09Speaker 06

  That'd be the most we could possibly get in a six by eight foot room, but it's better than any other kind of combination thereof. And I thought, who is the only person that he's would speak to? And it clicked his daughter. He had two estranged, our husband spoke to our daughter 20 years. We'd call him up, contact him on Thursday. One said, I want nothing to do with my dad. But the other said, all right, I'll come help you. So I met, we talked with her and we said, hey, would you talk to your dad for us? And gave her some like scripted lines. Yes. But I didn't tell her she was the lure. So she was going to be the bait to get him up the ladder. So this is back in 2013, like kind of early Skype days.

• 2:11:50Speaker 06

  So hey, let's, I said, let's put her in a computer. I'll lower the computer down the hatch lid, just like a foot. And have the daughter on there and try to get him up there. So, uh, we all, I briefed, at least my idea, HRT, they like it. Briefed the sheriff, he likes it. We briefed the director. Uh, director, similar kind of verbiage, I'll never forget. He says, well, I want everyone in that room, the seven of us to verbally concur that you want to go with this plan. Like he put it back on all of us. So he wanted to make sure a hundred percent concurrence. And everyone said, yes, yes, yes. And then he said, okay, do what you need to do, but before you do it, call me.

• 2:12:30Speaker 06

  Think about it from a leadership perspective, he like gave us all authority, then took it all back.

• 2:12:34Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 2:12:35Speaker 06

  So we're all sitting there and I'm there with Vance and I went and talked to the SAC and said, obviously, boss, you're going to call them back because that's not an answer. And you know, we do believe this is a serious deadline. He's going to kill himself and Ethan. So anyway, they do call back, they get approval. And this is day seven. Now I've got the laptop, which is hardwired to the other laptop, which goes to the, the van, you know, 50 yards away where the daughter is. And we go up and the breachers, first thing they do, they place their, you know, charges on the, uh, there's these three eye bolts where the, he also had, not only was that 200 pounds, but he had steel cables into a winch. So they couldn't open that thing. So they put the three charges there and then, excuse me.

• 2:13:20Speaker 06

  We deliver the meds just like a routine. That's the other thing too, is keep it the same each and every time. And then we deliver the toys and thank God that second condition isn't that, the toys. And then I lower the laptop and I marked it with like 550 cord. And then we told the daughter, hey, start talking immediately. And then we back out of there. So now we want no more contact with us. We want right the daughter. So then we're watching the video screen, the, the ground force commander, GFC, he knows the triggers, the trigger one. Ethan is there to dikes up and he said, execute, execute, execute. So the charges go.

• 2:14:01Speaker 06

  And then the teams run up. Breachers open that lid. First guy goes in.

• 2:14:10Speaker 06

  And he's just, he jumps in, imagine like an elevator shaft, but then he's only halfway down the elevator shaft. His like waist is sticking up.

• 2:14:18Jack Murphy?

  It was like a bicycle locks or something that he.

• 2:14:22Speaker 06

  Well, we didn't know that yet.

• 2:14:23Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:23Speaker 06

  We just, I see him jump in and we're all like,

• 2:14:26Jack Murphy?

  What the hell?

• 2:14:26Speaker 06

  What the fuck is going on? And now he's getting shot at and he's just like hanging there. And it like, doesn't compute. Like, why didn't he drop down the bottom? And he sees muzzle flashes, but he doesn't know exactly where Ethan is. Cause now it's been like, whatever, five seconds later, even though it's still five seconds, you can move a lot. All right. I don't know exactly, maybe three seconds, doesn't matter. But he doesn't know exact Ethan's location. So the team leader says, you know, pull him out, pull him out. This is the same wit guy was in Ramadi with, this is an awesome leader too. And they pull him out. And then they throw in some more, uh, throw a couple of bangs and they throw in Ella, another canine, Belgian Malinois. And the canine, she also gets stuck.

• 2:15:08Speaker 06

  And we're like, what the fuck is going on? And so now like this is the first time ever, like, like we don't quit anything, right? We are going to overcome every obstacle, but it was similar. Or I should say, it was like a moment where I just paused like, again, what are we going to do next? Like,

• 2:15:24Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 2:15:25Speaker 06

  We, we can't get in the hole. And now, now we've lost speed, surprise, and ounce of action. Like we have a little of ounce of action with the bangs, but like, what the F? And like a team leader sensed that. And this was just awesome. That wit, just some magic words, but they electrified. He said, guys, this is what we do. Get in the hole.

• 2:15:45Speaker 06

  And not that there was like a big pause or anything, but it was just those words. And then the breacher reach in, there's, I think you saw the video of it. There are two breachers. One guy reaches in, feels there's cables. He has installed a secondary set of cables, crisscrossing cables, which we had looked down that hole dozens of times during the past six days, seven days. We'd seen no other obstructions. He added them just that morning. So one guy has cable cutters. So that guy's a breaching shotgun and the two breachers are being shot at. He's shooting dozens of rounds up the hatch lid. And they say, clear. And this is one of the bravest things I've ever seen. Again, been shot at, you know, numerous firefights overseas and domestically.

• 2:16:28Speaker 06

  And seen incredibly brave things from extraordinary men in the military and women in the FBI. And that same number one guy who easily could have like stepped out of the line of march. Cause he easily checked over by a medic and he easily could have stayed out, right? And number two, he would have filled right in without a, without any doubt. And he gets back like intentionally in front of the number two guy now, and then jumps back in the hole. Knowing that there's an armed adversary actively fighting, waiting to kill me.

• 2:16:59Speaker 06

  Like that's the men I was fortunate enough to serve with the caliber of individuals on HRT. So he jumps back down that hole and we had rehearsals, practiced, and he knew he was going to encounter either one of two things, right? The grizzled veteran asshole, diabolical man, fight to the death, or innocent five-year-old child. He's not going to know which, and he just lunges forward and it's Ethan.

• 2:17:26Speaker 06

  Wow, it's a five-year-old. So he grabs him like this. He turns his body, oh, towards the subject, cradles Ethan towards the wall, says, you're going to be okay, Ethan. You're going to be okay. Cause he knows every other man is coming right down after him.

• 2:17:44Jack Murphy?

  There's a whole team, assault team coming in behind him.

• 2:17:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, and two and three are right behind him. I wish I had backup two, gets down there, he's got his pistol, fires the Glock, fires two rounds, hits center mass, but he charges him. You know what happens in the Glock when you're pulling the trigger and the muzzle is depressed, it goes out of battery.

• 2:18:04Jack Murphy?

  Yes.

• 2:18:04Speaker 06

  So now he has a non-functional weapon, but he knows he's hit the guy twice, but he's still fighting.

• 2:18:11Speaker 06

  And so they're testing, going to the ground, number three guy, and by the way, this is interesting, you'll like this, first guy is a former Marine officer, second guy down, former Ranger, third guy down, former Navy SEAL. Let's talk about like the perfect, even though it wasn't planned that way, it's the perfect representation of a joint force of the men on HRT, I think that's an interesting fact. But second guy is now taking him to the ground, he's trying to unsling his rifle after they, you know, exchange blows. The third guy, the SEAL, has his flashlight, he sees jeans on and he knows all his guys are wearing cry. So then he works his way up to the head and I'll just say both those guys eliminate the threat.

• 2:18:50Speaker 06

  And Ethan comes out and one of the more emotional moments of my life, just seeing him emerge when all of us, again, have worked so hard, and nobody's batting an eyelash about the amount of work, but the relief.

• 2:19:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:19:04Speaker 06

  Was overwhelming and he was taken to the hospital and he says, the doctors.

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• 2:20:38Speaker 06

  Man, those guys shoot a lot.

• 2:20:42Speaker 06

  Cause everyone in the flashbangs, you know, we had thrown some nine-bangers, he thought we were shooting at him. So that's the quick, down and dirty, I tell the whole story in the book too, but it's one of the more incredible examples of teamwork, heroism.

• 2:20:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I mean, it's like a nightmare scenario.

• 2:21:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:21:01Jack Murphy?

  And they pulled it off amazingly.

• 2:21:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, over, talking about overcoming adversity and obstacles.

• 2:21:09Jack Murphy?

  I, and for you, uh, um, you took a management job after this?

• 2:21:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, I was so tired of complaining about management. And again, looking at myself in the mirror, I said, hey, if you're not willing to do it yourself, stop bitching. So yeah, I went to, uh, Washington Field Office, it was a supervisor there at WFO and then headquarters unit chief, then finished up Miami as assistant special agent in charge. So it was a wonderful career, but yeah, interesting to have all three perspectives, right? As an operator going through the door, then the perspective as a negotiator, and then later as a leader, like when I was in charge of operations when national security and lives are on the line. So I felt, I don't know, confident and having those three perspectives, I think made me

• 2:21:57Speaker 06

  a better leader in judgment when to use what tool, for example, because as you saw, the blending of those tools where negotiators helped enable the tactical rescue, even though the heroics saved the day was still enabled initially, right? With the negotiator setting them up.

• 2:22:14Jack Murphy?

  What was it like, you know, taking that kind of leadership position and now presumably having oversight over a lot of these operations? You're the one they have to call and ask for permission.

• 2:22:24Speaker 06

  Well, actually I loved it because I don't know, having been there and done it, like there's, I don't know, a supreme sense of, uh, not of confidence, but just having gone through like these situations on HRT, like the field office had, we had high-risk operations, there were some, uh, Americans kidnapped in Haiti and I led the repatriation. I'm on the C-130 with, it was a Coast Guard C-130. So that was really cool, uh, bringing back these Americans. But they, like the risk level wasn't the same as HRT, but the responsibility was higher.

• 2:23:02Speaker 06

  So I really kind of enjoyed that aspect of it and having, you know, people in Miami was just a wonderful group of professionals and we were counterintelligence and cyber. So I.

• 2:23:17Jack Murphy?

  Cubans down there.

• 2:23:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, there's, there was a lot of, a lot of good work in Miami and I truly enjoy that as well.

• 2:23:23Jack Murphy?

  And then you retired, what, like three years ago out of the bureau?

• 2:23:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, I've been out for three and a half and now do some executive leadership development at Cornell University, a part of their team. And I also do keynote speaking. So if anyone is looking for their company for a corporate retreat or event, that's what I do now, I talk about leadership stories. I tell the FBI stories, but then I have some leadership takeaways, just as we talk about here, it's kind of the essence of the book. I tell those stories and then a little bit of leadership takeaways.

• 2:23:51Jack Murphy?

  Where, uh, where can people find you if they did want to have you come speak at their event?

• 2:23:55Speaker 06

  So I'm on LinkedIn and my company name actually is Inner Perimeter, which you'll like, innerperimeter.com, the most trusted leaders are closest to the crisis. Uh, the book's on Amazon, uh, so they can connect me either through the LinkedIn, innerperimeter.com or hit me up on LinkedIn.

• 2:24:14Jack Murphy?

  Uh, and tell us a little bit about the book itself, like how did this come about? What was sort of your motivation for writing it?

• 2:24:22Speaker 06

  I had several colleagues in the FBI say, Kyle, you really should write this. And Chris Whitcomb, he had on, he actually encouraged me, I talked to him several times and he pushed me as well for the similar reason we talked about before, to share, so the American people like know about these incredible people that did so much on their behalf, because you think of the kind of Herculean efforts that we went to save one child, and I think people need to know about that. So that was really important, cause I want to encourage others to serve their community and their country and just, you know, share these stories and hopefully they'll do that.

• 2:25:00Jack Murphy?

  And the book is called Shaping Chaos. Where can people find it?

• 2:25:03Speaker 06

  Uh, it's on Amazon, any place, uh, books are sold, actually comes out in November 3rd, we're in the important, we're important critical pre-sale phase.

• 2:25:10Jack Murphy?

  Pre-order.

• 2:25:11Speaker 06

  So I'd love it if, and it's a discount if you preorder on Amazon. But yeah, there's some riveting stories in there, again, with those, uh, takeaways. And really I wanted to highlight some extraordinary people, so hopefully reflects that as well that I was fortunate enough to serve with.

• 2:25:27Jack Murphy?

  Absolutely. Anything else that we didn't cover that you'd really like to talk about?

• 2:25:32Speaker 06

  Oh, we've covered a lot. I feel like I've talked like way too much.

• 2:25:34Jack Murphy?

  Oh, it's great.

• 2:25:37Speaker 06

  But, uh, no, thanks so much for your service as well and for telling these stories, because I think it's important, uh, for veterans and fellow people, because I think it's cathartic. I don't know like you.

• 2:25:47Jack Murphy?

  I think it helps, you know, folks process sort of their own experiences. And also, as you mentioned, I mean, for people to hear some of these stories and know that these things exist, maybe expands their, for a young person, expands their mind a little bit of what's possible and what they might be able to do.

• 2:26:03Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 2:26:03Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, hope to inspire others and I respond, like I still, all right, people hit me up on LinkedIn or interested in the bureau, uh, I'll talk to them and help them out, because I want to encourage service to our country, because we, as you know, live in the greatest country on earth and we got to continually find people willing to raise their hand to serve this country.

• 2:26:22Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, we recently had, uh, Steve Lazarus on, FBI EOD guy. And we had, um, what was that gentleman's name? The, uh, counterintelligence dude that was, uh, involved in the Robert Hanson arrest? I can't remember the, I'm sorry, it's dropped, it's, we're having, uh, another one of the bomb guys, Barry.

• 2:26:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, Barry Black.

• 2:26:45Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, he's gonna, he's gonna be on here. So yeah, no, it's always fun talking to FBI guys.

• 2:26:52Speaker 06

  Well, thanks very much, Rangers lead the way.

• 2:26:53Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, thank you. So please go check out Kyle's book, Shaping Chaos. It's available for preorder now and comes out November.

• 2:27:03Speaker 06

  3rd.

• 2:27:03Jack Murphy?

  3rd. So thank you, everyone who joined us and thanks again, Kyle, for making the trip in.

• 2:27:09Speaker 06

  Appreciate the time.

• 2:27:12Speaker 03

  Hello everyone. If you're hearing this, you are not a member of the Patreon. You can get your hands on ad-free episodes that come out early. And you can ask us questions. Maybe we'll answer them. You can also watch the Team House podcast. Completely ad-free and early, and you can also watch it live as we interview our guests. And it's the best way to support the channel. So if you can, if you're open to it, you can go to patreon.com/theTeamHouse. That link is in the description. We appreciate the supporters and we hope you would consider being one. So it's patreon.com/theTeamHouse. Thanks, guys.

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  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:32:36Speaker 00

  Hey guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Chris Mornings Pumpkin Spice Latte. And it's the best time to cozy up and play Spin Quest. They have over a thousand different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players, a $30 coin package for just 10 bucks. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com and download the app today.

• 2:33:00Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:33:06Speaker 05

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:33:35Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:33:38Speaker 00

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:33:43Speaker 05

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:34:11Speaker 04

  It's big, spooky, and wicked. SpinQuest.com. Grab a handful of Halloween treats like blackjack, bubble craps, and slots. All your freaking faves in one beautiful place. SpinQuest.com. And right now, new monsters get $30 coin packs for 10. Visit spinquest.com or download the app tonight.

• 2:34:35Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:34:41Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency?

• 2:35:14Speaker 00

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:35:19Speaker 05

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:35:47Speaker 00

  Hey guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Chris Mornings Pumpkin Spice Latte. And it's the best time to cozy up and play Spin Quest. They have over a thousand different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players, a $30 coin package for just 10 bucks. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com and download the app today.

• 2:36:11Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:36:17Speaker 05

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:36:46Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:36:49Speaker 00

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:36:53Speaker 05

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:37:23Speaker 04

  Yo, it's Bluff here. I've been giving out king-size candy bars to all the kids all day, and luckily karma was right around the corner. This Halloween, Spin Quest is giving away a scary good deal, 30 for $10 coin pack. They have over a thousand games available, and with instant cash prize redemptions, there's no waiting like those other schmucks. Don't miss out. Go to spinquest.com or download the app right now.

• 2:37:46Speaker 01

  Spin Quest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:37:53Speaker 05

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:38:22Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:38:25Speaker 00

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder-

• 2:38:29Speaker 05

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:38:57Speaker 04

  It's big, spooky and wicked. Spinquest.com. Grab a handful of Halloween treats like blackjack, bubble craps and slots. All your freaking faves in one beautiful place. Spinquest.com. And right now, new monsters get $30 coin packs for 10. Visit spinquest.com or download the app tonight.

• 2:39:22Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free to play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star trust pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:39:56Speaker 02

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:40:04Speaker 05

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:40:33Speaker 00

  Hey guys, Lady Luck here. I just love the fall season. Cris Mornings Pumpkin Spice Latte. And it's the best time to cozy up and play Spinquest. They have over a thousand different slots in all my favorite casino-style games. And they're running a deal for all new players. A $30 coin package for just $10. So this fall, grab your favorite blanket, visit spinquest.com and download the app today.

• 2:40:57Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free to play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:41:03Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star trust pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency?

• 2:41:36Speaker 00

  Please help us, they're everywhere.

• 2:41:39Speaker 02

  We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:41:41Speaker 05

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:42:08Speaker 04

  Hanging out at the pool is great. Relaxing and playing Vegas-style games on my phone at the same time. Drinking one hand and a blackjack in the other. It's all at Spinquest. Over a thousand games, including your favorite slots and table games. Be cool with this summer special. New players get $30 coin packs for 10 at spinquest.com.

• 2:42:31Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free to play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:42:38Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star trust pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:43:16Speaker 05

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:43:43Speaker 05

  This message is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. Kick off unforgettable travel journeys with Navy Federal's Flagship Premier Card. You'll get four times points on all travel. Yes, all travel. So if you book a hotel, you'll earn four times points. If you book a flight, you'll earn four times points. Even if you book a rideshare, you'll earn four times points. Plus, you'll earn three times points on dining. And unlike other cards, it doesn't require you to use any booking portals and has no rewards limits. So earning points couldn't be easier. It's all the travel, none of the baggage. So whether your next journey takes you hiking through a national park, relaxing on a beach, staying at a resort or visiting somewhere on your bucket list,

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• 2:44:43Speaker 00

  When intimate itch strikes, waiting it out isn't always an option. That's why there's Vagisil Maximum Strength Anti-Ich Cream. It provides fast relief from intense external feminine itching and burning. And 92% of women said Vagisil provided long-lasting itch relief. Intimate itch can have more than 60 causes. From everyday things like shaving, pads, tight clothing to yeast-infection-related irritation, Vagisil helps protect delicate skin from further irritation. Trusted by generations, clinically and gynecologist-tested. Don't let discomfort get in the way. Visit vagisil.com to find the relief that's right for you.

• 2:45:15Speaker 05

  Oh, I have had no luck lately. Wait, Lady Luck?

• 2:45:20Speaker 00

  Bretzke, I got you. I've had so much luck on spinquest.com. They have all of my favorite games, slot games, live blackjack, craps and bubble craps. You can even get a $30 coin pack for just $10.

• 2:45:33Speaker 05

  $10 for 30? I'm adding it over to spinquest.com right now.

• 2:45:37Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free to play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

• 2:45:45Speaker 02

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star trust pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:46:23Speaker 05

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu. In business, there's the easy way with Staples or the hard way. Hard means...

• 2:46:48Speaker 01

  Jen, did you get the weekend specials menus from the printer by any chance?

• 2:46:51Speaker 00

  No, they said they'll be done on Monday.

• 2:46:53Speaker 01

  But they're weekend specials.

• 2:46:54Speaker 05

  Easy means Staples Same-Day Custom Printing, where same day means same day. Hard means... Our new brochures are back from the print place.

• 2:47:01Speaker 00

  So how do they look?

• 2:47:02Speaker 05

  Well, our logo is brown.

• 2:47:04Speaker 00

  But our logo isn't brown.

• 2:47:06Speaker 05

  It is now. Easy means custom prints, perfectly printed. Don't choose hard, choose Staples. That was easy. Shop Staples online, in-store, or in the app.

• 2:47:14Speaker 04

  What's up everybody? It's Bretzke. I just got done stealing candy from all of the kids in my entire neighborhood and my stomach just hurts so bad I can barely get off my couch. But don't worry, I can still spend a thousand of my favorite slots and play all of the live table games I love on spinquest.com. New users get a $30 coin package for just $10. Go to spinquest.com or download the app today.

• 2:47:38Speaker 01

  Spinquest is a free to play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:48:14Speaker 00

  You're halfway through your to-do list, iced matcha in hand and the day's still not slowing down. Good skincare should keep up without overcomplicating things. Overuse of active ingredients can damage your skin's moisture barrier. New from Aqua4, a dermatologist-recommended brand. Hydrating daily lotion. It's lightweight and fast-absorbing on skin. Even though your afternoon's packed, your skin's moisture barrier is unbothered. Grab Aqua4 Hydrating Daily Lotion at your nearest retailer. There's before, and then there's Aqua4.

• 2:48:45Speaker 00

  The impact of myasthenia gravis symptoms can pile up. Plans getting rescheduled. Hobbies being left behind. Everyday tasks going unfinished. If MG keeps disrupting your life, the burden may be bigger than you realize. Learn how to assess and track the impact of your symptoms so you can talk about it with your healthcare team. Take the next step to better understand how MG symptoms may be impacting your life. Visit mgsymptomimpact.com.