Trash vs Linux

Peep Trash’s Dotfiles: https://github.com/bautistaaa/dotfiles Trash takes us through his "hell on earth" first week switching from Mac to Linux. From battling Wi-Fi drivers on an ancient MacBook Air to discovering the aesthetic joy of Hyperland and custom dot files, this episode covers the highs and lows of the Linux desktop experience. We also dive into the messy definitions of AGI, the utility of efficiency cores in modern CPUs, and why everyone needs a dedicated snack officer. Thanks to this week's sponsor: Code Rabbit If you're tired of developers just replying with LGTM, then you NEED Code Rabbit. An actually useful application of AI where it can use your own rules, lints and more to provide instant feedback in your editor OR a review on Github. https://coderabbit.link/primeagen-vscode

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Can we find the G-spot, the general intelligence spot? I just need to know what it is and if it's possible.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  Uh, anyways, I'm sorry.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  I mean, look, AGI, AGI is just another OOP problem. It's, it is an underspecified acronym. And so people end up getting in disagreements about it because they're both thinking of a different thing. Right?

• 0:28Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  And, and so like, it's, it's a really bad term now because it's just like, people can go 12 rounds fighting about whether it has or hasn't been achieved. And neither of them are thinking of, they're like, they're not thinking of the same definition, right? Uh, so it's, it's kind of a problem and, uh, I, I, fighting about terminology is such a waste of time.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  But who decides? Like, who writes the test to decide if it's like AGI?

• 0:54Speaker 03

  Trash, I think you should.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  Dude, I think it should be you. We might've, we might've achieved it at this point, according to my standards.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Well, that's the, that's the problem is that it, it's just not a good, it's not good to just have a label and to not have a very specific set of things. You should just talk about the specific set of things.

• 1:10Speaker 03

  Right. Well, also it feels like the, the average person's definition of what AGI was, we definitely already hit. Which was like, a computer I can talk to and it talks back in like, a way that would trick me. Is like, I feel like what everyone-

• 1:25Speaker 01

  That's like a Turing test.

• 1:26Speaker 03

  Right. But that's, I'm saying that's like what, if I think of like, what I thought AGI would have to be like 10 years ago, I'd be like, well, we'll probably never get it to where I can just like, talk to the computer and I can say like, "Hey, go research like how people use list versus vector in 40 different languages and come back with a summary table and like, show me that and like, get citations." And it would like, you'd be like, "Oh, that's, that seems pretty intelligent. I don't know. I just spoke to it and it did research and came back to me." Like, I would've been like, "Yes, that's for sure it." But then now I feel like, yeah.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  There's, there's like, essentially, you know, all these different definitions that people could have for it, right? And one is just like, it wasn't specifically like-

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Nobody specifically programmed it to handle the exact thing that you're asking it to do. Would be one of them, right? Like, it's just got a broad range of things it could do. And that seems like clearly we have that, right? Like, it clearly can respond to a very wide variety of things, even if the programmers who originally doing it didn't do it. There's another version of it, which is like, can it do things that it wasn't trained on? And that's a lot harder, because it seems like currently that's sort of not true. Like, the more you give it tasks that were intentionally created to be outside of the set it could have seen, the more they fail, right? And so, like, someone arguing that AGI is that has a very strong argument that it hasn't been achieved, right? Another version of AGI is that it doesn't need training, in a way, right?

• 2:55Speaker 01

  It's just like a human, where it's just like, if you just put it out in the world, with no, like, we didn't have to make a transformer set for it, we didn't have to, we didn't have to structure, like, here's all the things that goes through. Like, it's just this general thing, and no matter what you do, you hook it up to any bunch of robotics, and it just becomes as smart as a person, right? Well, we're nowhere near that, right? Like, who knows how long, maybe, maybe a couple of years away, maybe 50 years away, maybe hundreds of years away, we just don't know, right? And so, there's, I think the problem is just like, when people talk about AGI, everyone's coming with a different idea of what that is. And so, they could get in these really big arguments, like, no, of course it's not AGI, or yes, of course we have it, and they're both kind of right.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  It's just you have to say, like, what is the thing you actually, which are the properties? And that's why I always liken it to Oop, because it's like, people are like, Oop is good, Oop is bad, Oop is this. I'm like, somebody say, what is the implementation of this specific thing in Oop, right? And whenever I get one of those, I'm like, this is bad, and here's why. But then, in there, people are like, no, but that's not really it, right? And so, if AGI feels a lot like that, where it's like, just stop, just stop talking about that thing. Let's talk about the actual, specific things, and then we can have a more productive argument. I mean, not me, because I don't really care what you do or don't. But, but the people who care very passionately could argue, can it do this exact, specific thing?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  And you could come to a conclusion, right?

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Commish, you gotta listen to me.

• 4:27Speaker 04

  Oh no, not one more comment from you. I'm done rebasing your mistakes. You're on junior CSS duty until further notice.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  Commish, you can't do this to me.

• 4:34Speaker 04

  Keep talking and you'll be doing stored procedures for a month. Now get out of here. Take him with you.

• 4:43Speaker 03

  Fun fact, CSS is actually touring complete.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  Larry, Gary, Tango, Mary. I'm just pulling your request. It looks good to me. You're clear to ship. Thanks. You're welcome. Next.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  It's an awfully big PR. For an intern?

• 5:11Speaker 03

  Well, I just bumped some dependencies. It's nothing major.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Hey, can I get a quick stamp on this?

• 5:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, don't worry about it. Quick approval.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Oh, not on my watch. I'm on your dip like a peanut on a slider.

• 5:27Speaker 03

  Not this again. It's literally just a hex code change. Just approve it.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  Just approve it. Squish, perf resisting review. I... Oh, I know you're the dip where I've seen five coding, but that ain't it. Merge Cop, no!

• 5:44Speaker 03

  I hate Merge Cop. He always makes reviewing take forever. We have Code Rabbit. Oh, come on. It wasn't even merging the prod. It was a hex code change. We have Code Rabbit. We don't need real people reviewing such simple changes. Code Rabbit can do it for us. Our engineers' time is better spent solving problems for customers. You can try it too at coderabbit.ai.

• 6:05Speaker 05

  Next week on Merge Cop. Now, my plan to merge a dip so big. You're the dipper and I always knew it.

• 6:16Speaker 03

  This is like talking to Adam last episode where we were like, "Adam, you're a really good programmer." And then he's like, "No, I'm not. I just..." You just work hard. And then he listed a bunch of all of the things what a great programmer is. And then he's like... But I'm like, "No, Adam, that means you're a great programmer." And he goes, "Well, I can't." And then he listed something that I don't...

• 6:34Speaker 01

  I don't do data structures and algorithms or something.

• 6:35Speaker 03

  Right, I'm like, "Oh, and you can't solve lead code hards? Who cares? I don't care. That's... Google cares. I'm not selling lead code hards. I'm selling to a customer.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  Alright, um, so what I've been told, or what I'm kind of coming or getting out of this conversation is that AGI is a lot like Scotsman and communism. There's just, it hasn't really been tried yet, and that's the reason why we're not...

• 6:59Speaker 01

  No, no, no. It's more like Oop, right? Like, it's more like that, where it's like...

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, but when it's wrong, it's because you didn't do Oop right. You didn't do the real version of Oop. That's why it's wrong. It fails. It's because there's no true Oop.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Uh, I get, I mean, that's, that's one way that people will try to defend it, but I'm just saying that like, in that particular case, it's like, which, which parts of it did you actually mean is the more important analogy for me? As opposed to something like, uh, like communism, where it's like, real communism's never been tried, or, or stuff like that, where it's like, "Look, no one is actually saying that this particular thing was working in practice in the past." But people, you know, there's, there's working Oop code bases, right? Like, there's a ton of them. So it's not, it's not like you try it and your entire project is, is never gonna ship, or something like that, right?

• 7:46Speaker 00

  True.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  So, so I would say AGI is more like that, because some, some definitions of it, like Tej was saying, clearly are working. Like, just the, the most limited definition of it seems to have, have succeeded. And so, if someone was saying AGI hadn't been achieved, and they meant that, I'd be like, "Well, no, it kind of has been, or at least, can you see why someone would think that that very weak version has been, right?" And, and that's where I think you get into that trouble. Just, it's just, it's just so poorly defined, that you can't really argue about what has and hasn't worked.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  Okay. Well, it's, it's a very important time of the podcast. It's not where we do the intro. It's where we ask Trash, "What are the snacks you're eating?", because I can hear your little, I can hear your little fingies getting in the bag, and making the sound and everything. So what are you eating? What is it? Tell us about it.

• 8:37Speaker 03

  Me and Trash are matching today, bro.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  I got some...

• 8:40Speaker 03

  Oh, he's, we're not.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Popcorners, kettle corn, and then me and Tej are matching with the, uh...

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  The old Yum Earths.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  You got a pink ready to go?

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a red. So they just released, last week, and I tagged Tej, they just released all red packs. So I typically only eat these two, and boom, dude, I'm so happy, like, my wife linked it to me, and I was like, "What?", and I ordered like, six bags in like, two seconds.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Nice. Seriously, Yum Earth, please reach out to us. I, I desperately want to get paid to eat candy, so badly. I don't, I honestly don't understand how you guys do not have a snack sponsor for trash yet. Like, what is going on?

• 9:19Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, you wanna know what my snack is?

• 9:21Speaker 03

  No, he want, no.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  No, nobody does. They all wanna know what trash is, is that's why I can't believe he doesn't have a snack sponsor.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  He has sourdough bread, I bet.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  Banana bread.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, oh, whoa, where did that come from? Did someone just throw that in your hand?

• 9:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then I caught it. I didn't know there was a second one coming in. My wife surprised me, but I caught that one like a... Animal.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, so... I have a fly blocker, so my wife's been buying these bananas and not eating them. So we have like, until the bananas turn black, and we have like an infestation of fruit flies. And I cannot get rid, I basically smash like 10 every time I go into the kitchen, I'm just like... I'm just like, dude, and we threw the bananas away, but they're still here, and I just can't get rid of them, I just don't know.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  So you have an infestation of banana bread, potential banana bread, and then you, you throw it away?

• 10:10Speaker 02

  Well, we were supposed to use it, but it gets to the point where it's just way too gross. And you just can't use it at that point, so now we just...

• 10:15Speaker 00

  That's when you use it, is when it turns black.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  Trash, good trash, you're getting rid of the fruit flies, though. You get like a mason jar, put a piece of paper, so it makes a cone. Then inside of the mason jar, you leave like, a little piece of fruit. And then maybe some like water or something else inside of there. Then they fly in, we can't figure out how to fly out.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  I was doing that with apple cider vinegar, you poke holes in it.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  That works, too.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  Really? You do the same thing for mice, if you have a mouse, a mice problem. You get a big bucket, three, a five gallon bucket. You drill two holes in it, put a small thin, uh, like, uh, rotating metal like dowel rod in between them. Put peanut butter on it, and then a little ramp up to it, so the mice go up the ramp. They try to walk on the round thing, they fall off, and they land into water, and then they drown slowly.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  This is gonna be a great episode. I can tell this is a great episode of the Stand Up already.

• 11:11Speaker 03

  This is not making it to YouTube.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  In this episode, everyone talks about how to make a little trap for a fruit fly. And people are like, "Oh my god, I have to click on this."

• 11:21Speaker 03

  To be fair, fruit fly management strategies, that's got great long-term SEO, Casey. Like, people aren't gonna be dealing with that forever.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Prime escalated into drowning rats. By the way, here's my tree. Have you had this pop up? Or is that game pop or boom?

• 11:36Speaker 00

  No, no, this is lesser evil.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, the Himalayan saw one. Yeah, I have that too.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, Himalayan saw one, it's good.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  He's got that.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  I have a question, Trash. I have a question about your narrative. I have a question about your narrative.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  My narrative?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, the narrative that you laid out. I'm wondering if there was a step missing. When you said, "My wife bought a lot of bananas, and now we have a lot of fruit flies, and I have to kill like 10 at a time," or whatever. My question is, do you mean I have to first photograph them using my receipts app? And then kill 10 of them at a time, or what?

• 12:12Speaker 02

  We're beyond that, okay? We're back on a healthy relationship.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  I'm back to being a good husband, okay?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Okay, alright, good, that's good, Trash.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  I'm only a good husband, by the way.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  Back to being a good husband is starting the episode off by throwing your wife under the bus about her.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Saying that she bought a bunch of bananas that she doesn't want to eat.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  But I didn't take a picture of it, I think. I don't think I did.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Okay. Alright. Uh, hey, uh, Prime, do you wanna do an intro to this week's episode of the Stand Up?

• 12:40Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Stand Up, the world's most attended... Did someone really just interrupt me that quickly? The world's most attended Stand Up. All the interns are here, they're ready, they're willing to listen to the mandatory optional all-hands meeting today. And today, we have a very special one. Trash, Chief Snack Officer, has been going on an adventure with Linux and is here to present us what it looks like when someone who's used Mac for the last 10 years attempts to use Linux. Is this about correct?

• 13:11Speaker 02

  I think so. I had candy in my mouth. It was good.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  You know intros aren't long, Trash, that's on you.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  He's gotta eat the candy now, so he's ready for the rest of the pod. Like, it makes sense. He's gonna be talking a lot this episode.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  Take it away, Trash. That's the intro, that's it.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Is that the intro? So, I've been using Linux for about two weeks now. I will say...

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  I was wrong.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  Great.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  I think Linux is super fun, but I will say the first week was was hell on earth. So before before I share this with you, I want to just kind of show you the distros I went through. Just try to even get anything to work. So I'm using this old MacBook Air 2015, I think.

• 13:55Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a separate issue. Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's super ancient. The hardware is not that great.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  It's Mac.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  The Mac is the main issue.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Well, I wiped Mac off of it. Mac doesn't even exist anymore, or the OS at least, but.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Well, I just meant the lack of not being an open platform, but yeah.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  True, true, true. So I started off with, so I like I I pulled Twitter or whatever, because I just don't really know what I'm doing. And I ended up with Fedora. So I installed Fedora first. Is that good?

• 14:23Speaker 03

  That would have been Reddit's answer, but.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Fedora is fine most of the time. I don't know about on a Mac, but it's fine.

• 14:32Speaker 03

  The overlap of Fedora users and Mac users trash, the circle was one when you were doing that.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's probably true.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  You were the first person. Okay, so I use Fedora and actually, dude, I love Fedora out of the box. Like, the way I use Mac was actually the same way you use Fedora. Like, I use hot corners. So I use like the top left corner to kind of show like my like mission control or whatever. And it was like the defaults of Fedora were exactly like that. However, I could not get fucking internet to work on it, so I had literally no internet on my machine. So what I was doing is I had like ChatGPT open on like my other Mac. And I was just hand typing super long commands, just like literally like 200 character line commands. I was about to lose my mind. And then it got to the point where I bought a, uh.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  I can't find it, but I bought an ethernet adapter, a USB ethernet adapter, because I couldn't get the wifi drivers to install. So I waited two days for that to ship in. I plug it in. That didn't even work. So I was like, all right, whatever. So then I tried to reinstall Fedora again, which I did. I did like a different version. And then I got it like in this halfway state.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Let me finish. So interesting enough, I was able to install to install the drivers halfway, whatever that means. To the point where my USB ethernet adapter worked, but then my wifi didn't work. So as soon as I unplugged the adapter, like I lost all internet.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  But then I got into this weird thing where my packages were all mismatched. I tried to do like a DNF like install force or whatever with a whatever drivers and then everything just went kaput. So I was like, all right. After like a week of like trying that, I switched to Linux Mint cinnamon or whatever. Isn't that what um?

• 16:14Speaker 00

  I've minted before. I used mint with I three for a while.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  See, yeah, so I don't even know what these mean, to be honest. Like I like Fedora, like I don't know. Is Fedora cool? I don't know. Linux Mint, is that cool? No idea. Linux Mint just looked terrible to me. So as soon as I installed it, I kind of hated it immediately. But I think it's supposed to look terrible, maybe. I don't know.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  So, so the, so I tried the drivers again. I tried to sell the drivers.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  Hold on, hold on, hold on. Somebody just right now, there's somebody out there that's been like, I've spent my whole life designing Linux Mint. And then you're like, I think it's designed to look terrible. Like their whole life just fell off, like their meaning in life just fell apart.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  As soon as it booted up, I was like, ew. It's like, the first thing I saw was like, ew, like that's like my first word that came out of my mouth. But I was like, all right, whatever. Let me just try to get like internet on this thing. So I plug in the adapter. Of course, that doesn't work. I try Wi-Fi and it doesn't work. And I'm just like, dude, I'm so tired of just like manually typing commands. Like I was talking to ChatGPT. I had like the log. It got to the point to where I ran out of free credits on ChatGPT that I actually paid for a $20 plan. Cause I was like, I am not going to give up. Cause I literally gave up for about 48 hours.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  This is good. This is good.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  So the free, free Linux cost you 12, $20 already.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Dude, literally. But like for 48 hours, I gave up. I was like, dude, Linux is stupid. I'm not gonna, but I was like, you know what? I'm going to see this through. Cause I went on Unix port on Reddit.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  Of your trash.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  I went on Unix port and I was just like going through the top posts. I was like, man, these look so cool and I want this. So I was like, all right, hail Mary, let's just try Popo S. I was kind of against Popo S because it kind of looks like a, an operating system for little kids. Cause it's like, it's like spaceships and rockets and stuff and all just like.

• 17:58Speaker 00

  Trash, trash, trash, trash. What is directly behind you?

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Fair enough, alright. This is more, this is, this is an investment. This is an investment, okay? This is worth a lot of money, alright?

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  So, I got Popo, okay. Can you, okay, I feel really, okay, man, I just got destroyed on that one.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  You did, Trash.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  I can't, I can't come back from that, yeah.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was tough.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  Alright, hey, uh, that, thanks everybody for this episode of the stand-up.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  It's like, I'm over here opening my Pokemon cards and eating candy, and this Linux operating system is making me feel like a child.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  It has a rocket ship on it. Rockets are for children, and yum earth is for adult men.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  You know what's funny? Is that the way I rice it, it definitely looks like it's for like a 15 year old, like, internet kid.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Alright, this is good. I might have to look even worse.

• 18:57Speaker 03

  Oh, Trash, we'll be the judge of, does the final version look more like for children versus?

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Alright, so you installed Popo S.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  I'm in Popo S, because everyone said like, the drivers are like, good, like, I'll get wifi out of the box. So I installed Popo S, and lo and behold, like, fantastic, it looks great, or it doesn't look great, but it works. And I was like, great. But then I got to the point where like, I just don't like how it looks, it just looked terrible. And then, and then I, then someone told me about Hyperland. No idea what Hyperland was. I kind of know what it is now, at this point. So I installed Hyperland. And then I switched to Hyperland mode, and then I was just like so confused, literally. The only thing I could do was open up a terminal, and I did it by accident. I hit like, super enter, I hit super enter or whatever, and a terminal opened, I was like, wow! What's happening? And I was like, I was like, where's my browser? I was like, where's my status bar? Like, I had literally no idea what to do.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  And then, thank god for ChatGPT, because I was like, ChatGPT, how do I just open anything in general? Because, apparently in Hyperland, literally every single thing you do, just needs like a config. So I have like a config for my likes for my status bar. I have a config for like kitty, which is like the default terminal and then just like literally anything you would do. So the one eye opener for me was just like, just to have a similar experience to Mac or just like all the, all the software I took for granted that was like available when you do install, like Windows or Mac, like this wasn't there by default, nor was it set up. So I was like sitting here kind of stumbling through the terminal only. And what also threw me for,

• 20:31Speaker 02

  threw me for a loop was like the tile manager, like everything opens like in its own designated spot, like nothing's floating by default. So when I was opening stuff, it just like went to like four squares, like a riverside, which I'm not used to. I kind of like having things floating and I like to move things with my mouse and my mouse just did not work in Hyperland. I was like trying to click on stuff and I was like, what is happening? And to make things worse, apparently if you middle click on Linux or me, at least maybe a Pop OS, I don't know, it copy and paste like the last thing when you click. So I was trying to click on stuff and I just kept pasting like terminal commands everywhere. And I was like, dude, and I did that for about three days before I was like, all right, something's wrong. And I Googled it and I was like, oh, that's what's wrong. So I have to be really careful where I push on my

• 21:14Speaker 02

  trackpad because I'm using this like old dinky trackpad.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Turn that off, dude. You can just turn it off.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  I have it so that

• 21:20Speaker 02

  I don't know how, obviously.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  I have right click as two fingers and the whole thing is left click. So I just don't, I just don't mess that up.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  All right. Well, well, now I know where to push in my trackpad. So I've already adapted at this point.

• 21:32Speaker 03

  Okay, good, good. That's good. All right. So continue though, Trash. So you're, you're configuring everything in Hyperland.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Yep. So I'm like dot files maxed out. I got my dot files on GitHub now. You know what I'm saying? I went on like, I went on Reddit and I was like researching, dude, I'm too eat out of my mind right now. Not even kidding. Like I used to hate two E's. I was like, dude, cloud code and all this stuff, dude, like I'm just gonna use cursor because it's a goof. But now I'm just like, dude, I live in the terminal now and I'm so, I mean, to be honest, I was like a terminal kid before, like the cursor stuff came out, but I just got tired of it.

• 22:02Speaker 00

  You definitely are a terminal kid. I mean, you're still collecting Pokemon.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  I don't want my operating system look like it's for adults.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  I'm never gonna recover from that. I'm literally never gonna recover.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  No, Josh, that was, that was a fatal blow.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  I know. That was, that was really bad. But let me show you what I got. And because I'm on Linux, I can't share my screen, so I have a camera pointing at my, at my computer, which I'm gonna switch to. But before, before I switch, because the monitor I'm on for my old Mac just looks like crap, so the colors don't look as cool. But I just wanna show you what the colors would look like. If they, if they're, if they're on a nice monitor. So here's my. Let me see. Boom. Like, look at that.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Look how pretty that is. So this is like my, um, can you see that, Prime?

• 22:48Speaker 03

  This does look like it's for adults.

• 22:50Speaker 00

  I did, I did put you in big mode.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  Trash, who's the, who's the waifu?

• 22:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, who's the waifu?

• 22:55Speaker 02

  So, that's the chick from Demon Slayer. So that's the chick from Demon Slayer. I actually have her up my wall here. I'll show you guys.

• 23:01Speaker 00

  I can see a, literally a wall of Demon Slayer right now in chat, being like, "Do the..."

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's a mystery from Demon Slayer. And then I, dude, I went on like a, a wallpaper spree for like four hours over the weekend, just trying to find. Wallpaper that just looked good with like this neon color I got going on, okay? So I just wanted to show this before I switched to my, to my camera mode. But here, you guys ready for some scuff demoing? Cause this is about to get wild.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  Alright, let's hit us.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, okay. Hold on.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  By the way, that's a screenshot. That we're currently looking at.

• 23:35Speaker 03

  Before we keep going, um, someone says. Demon Slayer is a very overrated anime. Uh, do you have any comments?

• 23:43Speaker 02

  It is kinda overrated, but I did like, I just, I specifically chose this one because the color just looks sick.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Okay. Alright, there you go. We just wanted to get it out there. I just wanted to make sure in case there was a fight you wanted to have with anybody, you could have.

• 23:53Speaker 00

  Trash, my favorite anime is the live action remake of One Piece.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  I hate One Piece too. One Piece and live action in the same sentence is like gonna trigger me. But here, here's the poster of, uh, can you see it?

• 24:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, we can see that, Trash.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a delay. That's the poster. That's like right above. But here you go.

• 24:11Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  There we go. There, this is the demo for my Linux, alright? So there's my, there's just my login screen that I had to configure myself, by the way.

• 24:20Speaker 00

  I love that we're getting the Blair Witch version of this.

• 24:23Speaker 03

  Dude.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Oh, guys. You guys see my password too, dude?

• 24:27Speaker 03

  There we go.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  I just totally typed my password in with like the camera pointing at.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Is it the one password?

• 24:36Speaker 03

  Judge, please tell me it's not the one password, dude.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  It's like one of my old one passwords that I've just thought was strong enough. So I upgraded to a different one password that's pretty complicated.

• 24:46Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  You wouldn't understand. This other password goes to a different school.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  This is, this is a, this is a new password. It's got a dollar sign in it.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  It's very hard to guess.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  This is so hard. This is, okay. So this is my, this is my default screen, right? So this is what I mean that, this is, this is what I mean like with the tile manager. So I do like command, enter, which is like the default. Like it does like the tiling thing. This one's floating right now, so let me fix that. But this is like the tiling thing, like it does this thing, which I'm not used to, right?

• 25:16Speaker 00

  I love that, by the way. Huge fan of that, plus different desktops make me very happy.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then we got the, we got the, obviously you gotta have B top on there, you know what I'm saying?

• 25:26Speaker 03

  So true, good boy, Trash.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  While my wife walks by, so I just like impress her.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's like, wow, you're finally working.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? And then, you know, then now I'm just like, I got the two E file manager. I'm using this thing called Yahtzee. I don't know if you guys heard of Yahtzee, dude, this thing is sick. I was gonna use either Ranger or Yahtzee, but I saw like on Reddit, some guy was using Yahtzee and this thing was like, super sick. Uh, let me see, what else we got here? We got my work, so I have my, my status bar top, which is customizable. Usually I turn it off because I don't really need to see that stuff.

• 26:00Speaker 03

  Oh, Trash, that was smooth, dude. That was smooth.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I figured it, check this out. So, oh my God, we're.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  Oh, we can see, that's perfect.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  So this is all, this is all custom artisanal code.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Nice. Free range.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  Did you use Waybar? Is that a Waybar?

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think Waybar is like the main thing people use. So I just made it just, I saw someone on a, I couldn't get any ideas on how to make it look cool. So I went on Reddit and just like saw some guys, I was like, that looks sick. So I just kinda went down a rabbit hole.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  I like that it's not the full size. It's a little bit more compacted and doesn't go to the edges. I actually like that. I think that's pretty clever. Okay, I'm, I'm.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, initially.

• 26:36Speaker 03

  I was worried trash initially that you hadn't figured out how to get the screen to extend to the edge of the display.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Honestly, that's a fair assumption.

• 26:45Speaker 03

  Full screen.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  Fair, fair assumption, okay? Here's my dot files. Look at that. I got Neo them up. You know what I'm saying? Look at it. Look how beautiful this looks. Oh, uh-oh, uh-oh, hold on. Hold on. We got the telescope set up.

• 26:58Speaker 03

  Oh, look at that.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Telescope.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  You know, you know?

• 27:02Speaker 03

  Nice trash, nice.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  And then we got, obviously I did my dot files in Lua. Because apparently not doing it in Lua is not cool. So I switched it to Lua. So now we're on Lua now.

• 27:12Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, all the new Hyperland stuff, the new Hyperland Lua config. Nice.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Dude, it looks, it looks so much nicer too. Like the way you can just write in Lua just makes it just so much easier to complete.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  Did you get good autocomplete with Lua too? Like were you able to pull down?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  I think so. It was pretty decent. It was pretty decent. Pretty decent. I had a pretty good experience. Where we got it here? Number two. My dot files. Check me out. Got my dot files now.

• 27:35Speaker 03

  Star that bad boy. Guys, get over there and star that fast.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Give him some stars.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? Need some dots.

• 27:39Speaker 03

  Trash, you got your anime waifus inside of there as well?

• 27:43Speaker 02

  Uh, of course.

• 27:44Speaker 03

  Separately.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Of course. I got my wallpapers, bro. You kidding me?

• 27:47Speaker 03

  All right. Just making sure, just making sure. I needed to make sure people could have the authentic trash experience.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then, and I have a couple other modes. I got a... I have it set up to like if I just like hotkey like my browsers and I do like Command G opens up another like a browser or whatever.

• 28:03Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? And then, uh, what else I got? We got the...

• 28:07Speaker 03

  Trash, do the function keys work? Can you like make the screen brightness go up and down or is that, is that a?

• 28:12Speaker 00

  Uh, let's find out. Good question. Good question.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  Oh, it does work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Dude, not gonna lie, I could not fix, I couldn't fix my volume for like two days. And then I had to like, cause I had to configure it and then I had to like, basically dude, everything you just have to configure, which is insane. So like this thing, like the, um... Oh gosh. Oh, uh-oh. Uh-oh. What's happening? Hold on.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Oh, there you go. Just to like get like a spotlight type thing took me forever to do. So you can like type in and get all the good stuff. And then I have like a separate mode for like windows that are open. Separate mode for like calculator or whatever. I don't know. What else I got in here? I think I think that might be it.

• 28:54Speaker 03

  Trash, I got a question for you.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, what's up?

• 28:56Speaker 03

  How much of the, how much of the config, when you're saying you're artisanally doing it, you're saying you're handwriting this? You ask me?

• 29:02Speaker 02

  I hand wrote a lot of it at first.

• 29:04Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  So I wanted to learn how to do it.

• 29:07Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  So like, but it was like more of the traditional route. I went to Stack Overflow and I looked at people's dot files and I kind of just looked at it. Like I would have done pre-AI and first just like going into chat GPT and just like tell it to reconfigure. I did at some point have it like help me if I got like super stuck. I'm like, what am I doing wrong? You know, kind of help me do all my configuration stuff. But um, other than that, yeah, I tried to just like do everything by hand. So I can like truly learn it. There's a lot of stuff I don't really understand, like Hyperland is like the. I don't even know. It's like the window manager and something else put together. I don't even know how to describe it. I need like some of the.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  It's the desktop environment.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Okay. But it also handles like the windows. So like, when you say like you use like I three. That's like the alternative to what I would use here, right?

• 29:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I like I don't use I three anymore. I I moved over to Hyperland. Uh, and so it is, it is all the things in one. So it's you get the tiling. You get the compositor, like everything just works.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Oh, compositor, that's the word I was looking for.

• 30:08Speaker 00

  You have to bring it all together in I three land.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. So one thing I was struggling with, I wanted my terminal to be like a little bit more opaque or like like laying the passes so I could see through more. But apparently because of the compositor, this is like as much as it can get. So it's like, it's pretty blurry.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  It's not the desktop environment. My bad. It's the window manager plus compositor.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Okay. So is it the?

• 30:28Speaker 01

  I have a question. What by compositor? So does that mean I've never looked at uh, sort of the new architecture of Linux? So Wayland is not a compositor. It's just a substrate you build a compositor on or what?

• 30:45Speaker 03

  I thought, I thought Wayland was like the protocol for it. I could be, I'm pretty sure.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  I'm just curious about the terminology, like obviously I know what Wayland actually is, but I'm just curious, like what do they now call a compositor?

• 30:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's something that implements the protocols. So I'm pretty sure, yes, chat is saying Wayland is just protocols. So Wayland is nothing, it's just, and then Hyperland is the compositor that implements Wayland.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  Okay, so Wayland is like the spec.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  And then anyone can implement the Wayland spec. Essentially, right?

• 31:18Speaker 02

  That sounds right.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  And then, so something like Hyperland goes like, okay, I've, I've implemented the Wayland spec. So anyone who's written to that, like I've got all the endpoints. So this thing will just work on top of it and then we're gonna do whatever we want. But it's not like we had to install another implementation of Wayland alongside like Hyperland to get it to work. It's all just kind of like folded into one.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  I think so, that's mine.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Is that the correct, is that the correct description of it, chat?

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Hold on, one more thing. You guys ready for this?

• 31:49Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, of course.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Hold on, hold on. Why is it not working? Boom.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Whoa, with the slide?

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:57Speaker 00

  Hit it again, hit it again.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  It changes the animation. Hold on, it's like on shuffle. So hold on, we got some of this.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  What is this? What is that? You just, you just hit a key to change your, in case you're feeling like a change of mood or?

• 32:08Speaker 02

  So, so this is actually my favorite wallpaper. So what I'm gonna do is, there's this, there's this other thing called Wildlust. It'll actually change the entire theme of your desktop.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  To match the color of the photo in the background. So that's my next adventure. It's called Wallace. It's like some Rust thing someone wrote. So I'm going in deep and then I'm actually gonna, I'm buying another computer right now. So, cause I'm ready to put this, uh, these dot files on another computer that'll actually work and use it as my main machine. I'm gonna start trying to game on it. And then, and then I'm gonna actually start being on the standup with Linux. Can you believe it?

• 32:38Speaker 03

  I can.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Dude, the Linux future is here, man. It's coming. People, people do not understand. They think the big story is AI. The big story is Linux, man.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  It is.

• 32:47Speaker 03

  Great point.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Linux desktop. You're of the Linux desktop. So many people are like, yep, I'm moving over.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Alright, so I have a real question.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Dude, my arm, my arm is tired, so I'm switching modes right now.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, switch modes. I mean, all that sugar got burnt out of his body.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  I'm like in an earthquake mode right now.

• 33:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, we can, we can see that.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  I know.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Nice. Good job, Trash. Hey, can we get some claps for Trash in the chat, please, everybody? That's great.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Dude, I am Linux-pilled. Like, I'm not gonna lie, like,

• 33:19Speaker 02

  I always thought it was a waste of time, but after using Linux and realizing like all this bloat I've been used to, like Windows with like the ads and just like all this like stupid stuff that's added. And then Mac with like it's worthless like spotlight out of the box. It's Finder's terrible.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Finder is terrible.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, like Finder's like literally the worst piece of software I've ever used in my life. Like, just being able to, and I also just underestimated how fun it is to just configure things in the way I want them to be. Versus like these operating systems, I can change like the color. Whoop-de-doo, right? Here I can actually change like, pretty much all of it to whatever I want. And they kind of like, when I first, when I first started using Vim like in 2018 or whatever, it gave me like that same kind of feeling where I just wanted to configure this to make it my own for a long time. And this is pretty much why I did. Um, so like, it was just like, dude, I was addicted. I was just sitting on my computer, just like, between my prompts at work, I was like Linux maxing, dude. I was just like, alright,

• 34:17Speaker 02

  let's, let's, uh, let's see what else I can do. So I'm kind of like still riding that high, so it's probably gonna get a lot more intense over the next couple of months, too. I can't wait.

• 34:27Speaker 03

  I love this arc. I love Trash Linux.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  Me too. I am very curious about this because you specifically said this multiple times, which is this whole like configuration thing for everything is just kind of weird. Now that you've had this configuration for everything, do you see that the lack of configuration for everything is actually, for me is actually weird? Like, you can't like make almost any decisions for other operating systems in any sort of real way. And then there's all these programs that then get built on top of it that you like can't alter without really weird ways because no one has the mentality of like, hey, you can fully customize. I just love that aspect. And so I'm curious if you've now changed, are you now like, hey, where's the config for this program?

• 35:07Speaker 02

  I mean, kind of, yeah. Like, when I'm in, when I switch back to Mac and I'm using like my window manager, I'm just like, I'm like, dude, I gotta tweak this. Like, this is not, because I'm not using the exact same hotkeys that my, that my Linux machine is using. So now I have to switch like my mental model. Someone apparently on Twitter said I can like fix that, but I'm just gonna go full Linux. I'm probably gonna switch my, my work computer to Linux at some point.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Dude, this is so exciting. I love this. I love this. It was awesome.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  I'm excited too, Trash.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  A lot of my coworkers use Linux, which I didn't realize you could do.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I used it for-

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Were you using Linux?

• 35:36Speaker 00

  Yes, six, eight years at, at there.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  So do, what machine did you get?

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Dude, I ordered my own almost every single time, uh, just because I, I didn't like Lenovo. So I tried a Razer, which by the way, I had a 40 minute battery life. And I tried for, I tried for days to get Bumblebee to work, which was the old, uh, switch between integrated and dedicated GPU thing.

• 35:56Speaker 03

  I hated Bumblebee. Oh god.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  It's Bumble bitch is more like it. Like that was just the worst thing in the universe. And then, uh, you know, then as time went on, I had a bunch of other ones. And so, you know, at least if, if, if the big N is still the exact same as it was, um, back in my, back in my day, you can just buy a laptop and use that Linux. They have good open VPN support. They have good, um, much of F5 or whatever it is. All those things all work.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  Trash, just throwing it out there. I mean, we got these of course sponsored, so not technically an ad for this episode, but they are sponsored. Uh, these XPSs are awesome.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  I would, I would suggest Trash, although this probably doesn't need to be said anymore, but I'd suggest staying away from Nvidia parts.

• 36:38Speaker 03

  Yes, good point.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Generally speaking.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  So, so either, get either an AMD like integrated chip or get an Intel integrated chip. And do not get a discrete Nvidia graphics, you know, just stay away from that. That's what I'd say. Cause they don't support Linux very well at all.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  And, uh, and they've always historically been significantly worse, whereas all the others-

• 37:00Speaker 00

  I think that's changed, right? Like now that the AI revolution has happened, hasn't like a lot more investment from Nvidia into this world happened?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  I mean, it has, but I, it hasn't really made it better as far as I've seen.

• 37:11Speaker 03

  I think too for like consumer hardware, it's not, it's not hitting as much. I would say the exception for that Trash would be if you get something from like, um, System 76 or Framework or somebody like that.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Framework has AMD.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, they, I think they have some Nvidia ones.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Framework is designed for Linux, right? So you know you're gonna have drivers for everything that work well.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  Right, so if you buy one, yeah, that's meant for the Linux experience, then, then you don't have to be so worried about the Nvidia situation. You're like, it's fine, they, they tested them and it works. Um, but yeah.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  But we have a lot of AMD stuff here and it all works fine on Linux, right? Like, we have AMD laptops and AMD desktops and they all work fine. Nvidia stuff is, has been more hit or miss in the past. As Prime said, like, you know, they kind of have been trying to fix that a bit, but not very hard, in my opinion. So I would just, in general, I just wouldn't do it.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 00

  And as an owner in AMD stock, I love hearing all this AMD talk. You know, big, big fan, okay?

• 38:08Speaker 03

  Ryan, thank you for disclosing that, that's great.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  As a partial owner of Nvidia, or I mean, as a brandy.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  As a partial owner?

• 38:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, partial, hey, I, I do, I own a little bit of AMD.

• 38:18Speaker 03

  It's a fraction, it's a, it's a fraction.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  It's a, hey, it's a fraction, okay? Some fractions are larger than others.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Isurus is here and the Primogen is just one rung below.

• 38:29Speaker 00

  They want my vote, okay? They, they come and talk to me about voting rights, alright?

• 38:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I pretty much have two cards open, one for Framework, one for ThinkPad, and I was kind of just like weigh my options between the two.

• 38:39Speaker 00

  Okay, I do have to do a negative review for ThinkPad, because they did hang up on me on customer service. I personally would never go Lenovo. Personally, I'll never do them again.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Oh god.

• 38:49Speaker 00

  I do think Framework, System 76, those are, I, I've had all of those, I've had ThinkPad, Dell, System, uh, System 76 and Framework, and three out of four of those.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  I was thinking System 76.

• 39:00Speaker 00

  Three, three out of four of those, I have used and I had pleasant experiences on all of them.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I will say, I, I'm not suggesting that they're good, but I would say we have Lenovo's here and Linux runs just fine on them. AMD Linux, uh, uh, like, AM, the AMD integrated, like, uh, Zen Fours and stuff like that, all runs Linux just great on Lenovo's, but, you know, again, that's not saying that they're good machines or anything, I'm just saying that Linux doesn't have problems with it.

• 39:36Speaker 03

  Yeah Trash, I'll just throw out there too. I do, I mean, this, we can talk about it off-stream so that you know that it's also real, but I love this XPS.

• 39:44Speaker 00

  I do.

• 39:45Speaker 03

  The battery life is so long.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  People were, people were recommending that as too.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  I literally fly from Rapid City to Miami without charging my device, having cursor open programming in Vim, which takes like a kajillion LSPs from both of them, and having like YouTube playing Miss Monique. So I somehow made it all the way through, like six hours of flight on a Linux machine. So that was an absolute incredible experience.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  So I will say this.

• 40:09Speaker 03

  Programming outside today. No joke. I'll show you a picture after stream Trash, because it has my feet in it, so chat can't see it.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  So this is what I'm gonna do. Once I get my, once I get my next machine, I'm actually gonna speedrun more distros, just because it's such a pain. It's such a pain to get distros to work on this old Mac. So I'm gonna try, Arch is gonna be my next one. So I'm gonna try Arch. I wanna see like how complicated, because everyone keeps saying it's like the ultimate neck beard one. So I just wanna see like how difficult it is. I'm gonna try NixOS, because my coworkers are all about NixOS, try it out. And then I'm gonna go back. I think I really am gonna actually end up setting off Fedora, but we'll see. We'll see. I'll have more news for you, but I'm, I wanna try a lot of the distros, just to, you know, get my feet wet. You know what I'm saying?

• 40:54Speaker 00

  You can run into some issues. Yeah, you can run into some issues. Like I, I, here's a good one for Arch.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  I already ran into a lot of issues, alright?

• 41:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was, I, I installed GDB yesterday on a car ride. But then I couldn't run GDB because I had mismatching, uh, uh, some, some sort of libso's. And so I had the update, I had some things that I needed to update, but I didn't have enough bandwidth to update like the whole machine. And so then I just couldn't use GDB and just printf debugged my way through. Like sometimes you run into those issues and I think that doesn't happen on Ubuntu, because Ubuntu has like a fixed set of versions, if I'm not mistaken, to where, like they have like, this is our release. And so I think things just work together. You know better, right? Yeah, Pac-Man SYU just was not, was not in the cards for me because I was getting no internet.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  One thing that confused me-

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Also trash, so if you're not using yours in the car on your phone's hotspot internet, maybe you won't have that issue.

• 41:44Speaker 00

  You won't have that issue for that. Yeah, that's true.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  The one thing that kind of threw me for a loop after I used, like, I think I used three distros at this point, were just like the packages that were just available in them. So like, uh-

• 41:56Speaker 00

  Everything.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  Which is like Debian uses what? Apt. Debian was like DNF or whatever. But then I realized as I tried to install these packages between them, like, one didn't exist in this one. And one is, here's how to use, use like a different command, like, uh, snap or pack? I can't remember.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  Oh, gosh, flat. Don't get flat pack or snap on there.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  It was something.

• 42:16Speaker 00

  That's one nice part about Arch is you literally have everything. Like, I've almost never ran into something that I wasn't just like, go put it in.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  On Arch?

• 42:23Speaker 00

  Paru, paru dash s, go get them. And it just like works.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  So that's like one thing I just, I don't, it's kind of like MPM modules for me. I'm just installing things and I don't even know what I'm doing. You know what I'm saying?

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Linux is not great that way. It's the one thing that I really dislike about it that I wish had been different, which is that like, there's liter- in Linux, there has never been and probably never will be a sense of, here is how we distribute a binary reliably. It just, it simply does not exist. Like, everything relies on this sort of upstream package management or complete containerization kind of approach. And they never really were like, here's just an API that you write to and this will run on all Linuxes forever, everywhere. They just never did that. And it's, you know, it's, it's strictly user land. Like, the Linux kernel API is actually like very clear. You can go look at it and it just is what it is. So like,

• 43:22Speaker 01

  you know, technically, a program written to just the Linux kernel probably could run everywhere and for a very long time. But like user land is just such a completely nightmarish thing that you end up having to do a lot of work if you actually want to distribute a binary that just works everywhere. As opposed to going through this process of like, everyone builds a package and you download the package, or everyone puts things in a giant container and then the container installs and doesn't quite play nicely with things because that container has something and this container also has a version of that thing. And so you can't have the same one between them. And like, it's just, that part is worse than Windows, unfortunately.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  And it probably isn't going to get better. It's the one sadness of Linux.

• 44:10Speaker 03

  How close is app image? Like, I have an Arch computer that I'm running right now, and I've had like Ubuntu and, sorry to say, trash, Pop OS, although I did change the background.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Child, absolute child.

• 44:24Speaker 03

  Well, actually, I was running Austin WM on it. But anyways, that's fine. But like, app image runs fine across both of them that I don't, is it like, does that solve the problem? Or no, I literally don't know what app image, why it works. So I'm very uneducated.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  I don't even know what that is.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Well, so.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  You chum it and you run it.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Right, that's it. Anything that can, anything that like does effectively containerization in some way is a quote unquote solution to this problem, right? And the idea, the idea behind that is generally that like, we're going to take all of the what would have been user land dependencies of this thing, you know, whatever the glib C was and whatever all the SOs were that it was using and like all of that stuff. And we're just going to pretend that that is what it is running on, right?

• 45:13Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  And there's a lot of ways that you can do that. I mean, Docker is this as well, right? Like, that's what that was. It was a attempt. And there are many attempts to solve that problem. But the problem is that that means that if there's anything like shared, that you were trying to have these two people do the same thing, like, like, I want you both to use this config file or something, right? It starts to be, it's now that's like its own new thing. It's like, okay, well, how's that going to get mapped? And all of a sudden, you're back to the same problem. It's like, oh, okay, now we have to make sure that like, they're both using this kind of config directory with this layout structure, right? So there's like, they just.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  You can understand why this problem happened because it's downstream of the fact that there's many people shipping user land. Right, that makes sense. So it's like a strength and a weakness that come together. The strength is that you can have lots of different people experimenting with how the user land is structured and the idea is that maybe that is more fruitful because different, you know, if one of them fails, then we just don't care. That goes away and we keep the ones that worked, right? So it's not like it's all bad, but the problem is like it's still not quite, like the only coherent thing that people have gotten to in Linux for long term is containerization, really.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  And otherwise, it's just this really, you know, and people, you know, who try to get really creative with it, like I said, you can kind of try to do things where you're really just talking directly to the like kernel system APIs and you try to like have very little dependency on the user land stuff. You can do that, but that's not how most things are built and it's also there, it's got its own issues. So just, it's harder, right? It's just harder and it would be better if it was, to use Rico Mariani's phrase, it would be better if it, if someone, how someone succeeded at some point in getting it user land to look more like a pit of success rather than a pit of failure, right? To make it easy to just, when I make something, just by default, if I just sit down and make

• 47:23Speaker 01

  something, the easiest thing to do is something that will just work everywhere as a binary with no need for any special consideration and no need for containerization and like it would just work. But we haven't gotten there yet on Linux, right? Whereas in general, like if you built something, like on just a blank Win32 API, it actually runs on every version of Windows, generally speaking, and Linux now. True. Right? Like you could write a Win32 binary and it will run on all Linux systems. That's pretty nice. So that's kind of funny, but yeah, that's where we're at. That hurts a little bit, Casey. But it's true. Because the Linux back compatible people have done such a great job of, like Wine and Proton are so amazing that it just runs, right? Sorry.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  I have a quick question. So one of the things I ran into was, at least on the Pop OS repository, whatever you want to call it, they had like an outdated version of something I wanted. Like, what do you do in that scenario? Do I just have to go build from source myself? Is that like recommended? Or do I have to sit there and wait?

• 48:28Speaker 01

  You can add a repo- you can add their repository if they have one, is usually the recommended approach. So like if, if the people making the thing have a repository for your distro, you can add that as a preferred package source. That's one way, right? Cause, cause like in general, just like as a, as a rule, Linuxes, Linseys tend to have the following structure. There are a set of like blessed package repositories that are like the, the people who maintain this distro, like Pop OS or whatever, or Debian or whatever it is, right? They maintain, or any Debian sub, like, like Mint. They have their kind of like, this is our package repository

• 49:14Speaker 01

  that when you run one of those package managers, it talks to these blessed repositories. And that's where it will get the versions of the packages that you install, right? But you can also add your own repositories to like supersede that. So you can go like, oh, um, the people who make Hyperland, they put up their own repository for my distro that has a newer build of the thing, or whatever. If they did that, you can just add that with one line. You can say like, hey, whatever package manager I'm using, add this other repository. And then when you say, I want to install Hyperland, it'll go, oh, there's a much newer version of Hyperland that comes directly from the Hyperland repository, which you said I could use now. I'll install that. That's way one, right?

• 49:59Speaker 03

  Like an alternative mirror for like NPM or something. Like how you can set up an internal one for that.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  So you can always look for that and it comes with the same risks as you would expect. You're basically now trusting those people to have built parts. But hey, previously we're trusting a bunch of Papa with people who definitely don't have, you know, an incredible security team or something like that to provide you the packages. So it's, you know, you have to assess the source to make sure that you don't think it's any less trustworthy than where you were getting your packages before. But as long as you've done that, you can add it. And now it will just update automatically. And when you do your normal package manager commands, it will just look in that repository automatically. So you don't have to do anything else. That's like the most automated way to get a more modern thing, right? If they don't have that, so if the place that you, you know, if the thing that you want doesn't happen to have that, then yeah, then you're into like, okay, I've got to go look.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Do I want to GitHub clone this thing and build it myself? Do I want to look for a, a flat pack or an app image? Or like those kinds of things where someone has pre-built it into like something that's designed to run containerized. So it won't integrate as completely into my Linux distro as it might otherwise have, because it's not actually built for this distro, but I can run it in a containerized way. And maybe that's fine for whatever I'm doing, right?

• 51:19Speaker 01

  Eh?

• 51:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, like trash, like on, for me, I don't usually use the like cursor bin that's in the AUR. Like I just let it update itself and it downloads a new app image. And then like, I can run that app image again.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 51:34Speaker 03

  So that I don't have to wait for other pack, for Arch to update it. And also sometimes I don't want to update my whole system just to update one dumb program. Or like for NeoVim, I would usually just like have a build folder locally on my computer. And then I would just run make, sudo make install. And then it will just install whatever version of NeoVim I currently wanted to have. So like that. Yeah, usually, you know, usually they have some like make script, some make files, something simple to like build it for you, and then it's like install some set of dependencies, maybe. Or maybe they'll have like a, you know, an app image or something that will make it very, very easy to get the latest one.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  It's a problem, Trout. Like, it is like, like I was saying, like I was saying at the outset, if I had to say the number one problem with Linux right now, for the average user who, you know, isn't somebody who's maybe tech savvy, it's this, right? Because it's like, you just can't distribute binaries reliably, and everyone's, it's one of those problems where you say it and Linux people say, "No, no, no." It's like, no, it is, full stop. Like, it is not arguable. It is harder to download binaries on Linux than other places. And that's not really a criticism of Linux, because like I said, it comes from the fact that they're trying not to have one uniform user land. They're trying to allow people to experiment, and so there is a benefit to it, right?

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Like, like, DHH could not have made Omarchi, right? If this had not been true.

• 53:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  And the same is true for all the other people who've made their distributions. Bazite, Linux Mint, Pop OS, Nixos, whatever it is, right? So the fact that we have all those things is because this was allowed, but the downside of it is everyone made their own ideas about what it means to ship a binary as a result, and those things are not necessarily compatible. They haven't necessarily even been compatible across revisions of the same thing, because again, it's like, there is no hierarchy that's saying, "This is how Linux should be." The kernel, since it has, you know, Linus sitting there cracking the whip, he can sort of say, like, "We're not breaking this. Like, here is the API to the kernel, it must remain consistent, never break," right? And that's been pretty, like, that layer of Linux has not had this problem, but the

• 53:50Speaker 01

  user land stuff has. And so that's just how it is, and until someone can politically solve that problem somehow, political plus technologically solve that problem, it's going to remain a sticking point, probably.

• 54:03Speaker 00

  Obvious answer, Casey, is just, you're right, win 32. Applications and then just let Proton handle it.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  The other thing is the browser, right? A lot of people use a lot of web apps now. They use like stuff in the browser and the browser is its own way that this gets solved, right? It's this separate substrate that everyone programs to. It's exactly like Win32 in that respect. So there's two places that you can go to get like stable Linux distribution. One is Win32, right? And the other is the browser. And both of those things will work. The part that doesn't work so well is if you actually want Linux native. And there you're kind of stuck in this like containerization land or being very, very careful about like using only kernel stuff.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  And having your own backend baked into how you communicate across those channels. It's just, it's not great. It's not great.

• 55:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I feel like honestly, I mean, like my wife uses a Chromebook. Like she could use, she could use my Linux computer because she just opens up Chrome. That's all she needs anyway. So it's like, it would be just fine. Like that's all she uses a computer for.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  For a lot of work that is, you know, web-based like that, then, then this is just not an issue, right? Because the browser will always, you know, Google and Firefox, they, they always keep an updated browser for basically every distro. So you're gonna have that, right? And so if the, if most of your stack that you use every day just runs in the browser, you're good to go.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  So what you're telling me is that the famous talk by Destroy All Software, Gary Bernhardt with Metal, where eventually the VM for, or eventually the kernel becomes just a VM for JavaScript, is really the ultimate goal here, where we all don't have to think about management of any kind. There is no sandboxing. Everything's already pre-sandboxed. It just all runs like that's actually truly the ultimate answer.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess I'm not sure if it's the ultimate answer, but what I'm saying is just that there are substrates that have persisted. Win32 and the browser are two of them. And Linux has not yet managed to produce one, other than the kernel API, right? And so that's just where we're at. To be completely frank, neither has Mac. Like, Mac is very bad at this as well. You don't really want to be in a position of having to ship stable binaries on a Mac because they're like, they break by default. They're like, oh, did you get that notarized for this platform? Or whatever, right? Is a thing they've stuck in that process, right?

• 56:40Speaker 01

  So they're not designed, they are not trying to make this thing that's designed to have things run forever and all that, right? Win32 kind of was and has been maintained in that way. Win32 specifically, not some of their newer stuff, for example.

• 56:57Speaker 00

  Does Win32 run 64-bit applications? Is that like a holdback of its naming? But is it...

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you can call it Win64 if you want, but I'm talking about the Win32 API that then got pulled forward into 64-bit.

• 57:10Speaker 03

  That was my favorite gaming system, Casey, Win64.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because the reason I usually say Win32 instead of Win64 is because they've added a bunch of APIs since then and none of those are reliable, right? Like, all the new stuff, forget it. You know, and...

• 57:27Speaker 00

  Fun.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  So I don't know that you want to go that route. But the older stuff is very reliable and very sort of universal. You can run, you know, a thing that uses the Win32 API is compiled as a 64-bit binary will run base everywhere. I've had, you know, examples like, I have a bunch of tools that I build that I use on my Windows development machine, and I was like, oh, I got to port these to Linux? No, I didn't. I literally just ran them and underwined, and I could not tell the difference. It was just seamless. And I was like, wow, this has gotten really, really good, right? So it really is true that, you know, as long as you're doing a sane, a sane Win32 app, you can run that on Linux now and it just works.

• 58:13Speaker 00

  So fun little side story on Win32. One of the first things I ever attempted to learn and build was building my own multiplayer programming in FPS, DirectX8, which I later discovered to have many security flaws. But a good, like, 10% of the book was starting...

• 58:31Speaker 00

  A win 32 window. I am very, it takes a lot of lines of code in my, in my remem- in my rememory of-

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Really?

• 58:38Speaker 00

  Of just like, it's like four or 500 lines of code just to get like, the window to show, if I remember correctly. It was a brutal, it was a brutal process.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  It's probably 100, maybe, maybe 75, let's say.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  I mean, this, they probably had a lot of stuff in there that wasn't necessary.

• 58:57Speaker 00

  Not, not, not my, not my time, not-

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Does that include DirectX 8 startup, though?

• 59:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's part of some DirectX 8 handling, which by the way-

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Okay, that adds, yeah, that adds.

• 59:07Speaker 00

  Unironically, this part of my hand started hurting because of DirectX. I had to quit, I had to quit my dreams of, of an aspiring game programmer because DirectX was so many capital letters. I started developing a problem with my wrist and I thought, I, I can't, I can't do DirectX, like, it's gonna kill me.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, DirectX 8, I don't remember the startup code for that, but DirectX 11 now, which would be the standard thing you'd write to, if you didn't want to go 12, would be, it, it's a, it's really not that many. I mean, maybe, maybe it's 100-

• 59:42Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  150 if you wanted something reasonable. It's, it's actually not much. It's not like Vulkan or, or-

• 59:48Speaker 00

  It's not, it's not double pointer, all capital letters and hap- everything happens to be 30 to 50 characters long?

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Well, that's true, but there's not very many lines of it. You don't have to do very many things.

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Let's put it that way.

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, yeah, I can write that for you, Prime. You can save your little pinky for later.

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  Oh, my little pinky? Yeah, cuz you know, even back then, I didn't like using the caps lock key, but now I understand why. Um, okay, well, this has been enlightening, Trash. I, I really want to congratulate Trash on quite the deep dive, honestly.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  And hand-coded, too. Trash, can people, can people get your distro, like, have you put this up? You had a GitHub there.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I shared it, uh, I posted it in the chat.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I started.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Cuz I think, I think everyone needs to know how to get this if they wanna, if they wanna be like Trash and have like waifus on the desktop and all that stuff, like, how do we get it?

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Dude, everyone has a waifu on the desktop.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:00:40Speaker 00

  Like an adult, yeah.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Like an adult. None of these rocket ships and a waifu on the desktop like an adult.

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  These daftos are for grownups.

• 1:00:47Speaker 00

  Waifu on the desktop, not a wife on the desktop.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  No, I'm interested to see, uh, when I try to port this to a new machine, how that works out? And then also just how it's gonna work with like Arch and.

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  If you're all Hyperland based and a lot of the Hyperland programs, you're gonna probably have very little. My guess is you'll have very little problems.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  So, okay, here's my question. So if I switch distros and I just decide to use Hyperland on all of them, is there really a difference in the experience I'm gonna get?

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Package manager.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  And that's it?

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  That's a big one. So like which packages are available and how recent are they? And, and how, how is the, how is the underlying like config set up? Like, oh, like what's, how is slash var and slash Etsy and stuff like, how are these like set up? I mean, which you may or may not care about, right?

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  I've had very little interaction with slash var and slash Etsy in my day. Like only when I was having to really think about like LDD and then figuring out what the heck's running with, uh, uh, the TV app. That's the only time I ever had to like concern myself with. I guess I just, you know, especially with Odin, it's all together. Like I've never, you don't, you don't even think about any of it.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  So then here's my next question. Was my only reason to switch distros is literally just for the package manager at this point?

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  And well, and the out of box install experience is actually non negligible big one. So at least for me, like in the old days, I used to install Ubuntu a lot, even though I strongly disliked actual Ubuntu, just because it was one of the few things that you could reliably install on like a laptop and it actually worked out of the box without you having to be some kind of a, uh, a kernel whisperer, like, you know, add and grub. Add and kernel parameters on the grub.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  I got hit with a grub menu and I just lost it. And I was like, I don't even know what to do. It was like the screen was black and I was just like smacking my keyboard. I was just like, what's happening?

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  And so like in the old days, I was like, I don't want to deal with this, you know? I would probably install Ubuntu on something just because I knew it would work the first time, right? And I wouldn't have to like actually go figure anything out. Uh, nowadays, the same thing is true. It's just not Ubuntu necessarily, right? Like there are definitely distros that I find are more reliable, uh, out of the box or whatever. And so like, that is a meaningful differentiator, at least for people who don't want, like, if what you're trying to do is just install this machine as quickly as possible and you're not like here for the experience, right? Uh, then that's a, that's a thing that you would care about, right? And like you found. I'm guessing that for MacBooks specifically, right?

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  For MacBooks, there are probably certain distros that install much cleaner because they've been tested on that and they include the drivers by default that are specific to Mac, whereas a lot of distros probably don't because they don't care about Mac because it's a closed platform, right? And so my guess is that that was sort of what you encountered there. Like, most of the time, a Fedora install will just work on most PCs. Like, it's pretty reliable now, I've found. But like, yeah, MacOS, I had a similar experience to you when I wanted to put Linux on a Microsoft Surface, right?

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  You know, Bazite, for example, which normally would install on a gaming machine, no problem, you just run it and it installs, can't run on a Microsoft Surface. So I think I used a Fedora, I don't remember which sub-flavor, Plasma, I think, right? You know, they're the same, basically, but you can pick what your default is. But, anyway, so I think I installed a flavor of Fedora on it and that worked out of the box. And then I had to do some things to like, get it running on the Surface correctly, like, you know, to have it respond to like, touch correctly and whatever. But, you know, that's how that goes. I think nowadays, if you were on something like a System 76 or a Framework computer, I bet you could pretty much have the same experience with anything, right?

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. When we installed Omachi, it was like, I've done it a couple times on my Framework one. I can go from like, the installation process on a laptop, to three minutes to the login screen, to one more minute to have Wi-Fi and everything up and running. It's, I mean, it's pretty outrageously quick.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  When you're installing, are you guys using USB drives or are you just like?

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  USB drives.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  Had to order one out, had a USB drive in years. Had to go Amazon, prime that real quick.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:05:14Speaker 03

  Yes, gotta put it on a USB, flash it.

• 1:05:17Speaker 00

  And then you gotta put a little sticky note on there that just says like Arch or something. And that's why you always have your Arch one handy, then carry it around with you.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  Cheaper.

• 1:05:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Speaker 03

  No, you wanna put the latest ISO again, in my experience, it doesn't take that long. Just get the latest ISO again, it'll have better. It'll have better drivers. Like I would get, if I'm gonna go and. I'm not gonna go say, I'm gonna install the three-year-old Linux on this bad boy. I gotta get it fresh, man.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Well, it actually does matter too, because like, a lot of times. And I've never actually gone and looked at the specifics of this, but a lot of times there is. This, uh, sort of compatibility creep that happens where. Uh, the new Strix Halo processor or whatever cannot be booted up in the same way. Or if you did, you wouldn't get video or whatever as the old one. And so if you don't get the new ISO from Fedora or whatever that was updated as of now, sometimes even the beta, right? If you're really new to this processor, that it just doesn't have the support for that thing.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  And, and this would be true on Windows as well. Like it needs to download drivers that will actually start this thing, right? And so you do sometimes have to make sure that your installation media is up to date, sometimes even beta up to date. If you have a processor that just came out, uh, because it unfortunately, they, they have like different ways that they're gonna boot. And when it goes to try and put it into a graphical mode, that might just fail, right? Uh, if you don't have the latest thing, cause, cause the integrated graphics part is different. Or whatever, like the memory aperture is different, like who knows, right? Uh, so you do have to worry about that.

• 1:06:57Speaker 03

  For us with the XPS, we had to get the latest Omachi for it because it had Panther Lake inside. And nobody had Panther Lake support yet, so it was like.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  What the hell is Panther Lake?

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  It's the, it's the Intel Core.

• 1:07:09Speaker 00

  A lake of Panthers. It's good. It works 60% of the time, it works every time.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  I was going with that.

• 1:07:16Speaker 03

  No, it's Intel's latest, I think latest, right? chipset and it has way better like battery performances. Like it better power consumption. I don't really know, but it makes the battery last a long time for me. So I like it.

• 1:07:28Speaker 00

  Apparently, one of the big things is that if you have like, say, video playing. This is why I specifically shouted out YouTube is you have like video playing on YouTube and then you switch desktops and you go over to your coding one. All of a sudden you'll notice your wattage go way down and you'll and apparently it has, I don't know, something to do with that. I'm not really sure. I, I, I

• 1:07:46Speaker 03

  I don't think that's a Panther Lake thing. That's about, it just has options to do stuff now.

• 1:07:51Speaker 00

  I think it's some of the later headers that came in also with that update that you could do a bunch of reduction when things are on different desktops.

• 1:07:58Speaker 03

  I don't know. The battery is good for me, so I like Panther Lake. So all I know.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  In, modern Intel cores look a lot like the M series cores is the way to think about it. So you know how M series cores have like, they have Firestorm and Icestorm?

• 1:08:13Speaker 00

  Classic, absolutely.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:08:16Speaker 03

  I did not know that. That's awesome.

• 1:08:17Speaker 00

  I have no idea even what Firestorm and Icestorm are.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  I was like, that's a Pokemon move.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trash is interested. Finally. It's like, is there?

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Finally, you're talking to me.

• 1:08:28Speaker 00

  Something I understand.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Okay, so, keep going, keep going.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Uh, sure. So, so if you think about an M series chip, right? Like the things that's in your Mac, your modern Mac. I assume you have a new MacBook, right? Trash, uh, somewhere or?

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got all the, the new, new.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, all the latest.

• 1:08:46Speaker 03

  Every single one. He's got, he's got every year's edition.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, it's from work. Like I got the new M4.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  There you go, M4, right? So if you look at how an M4 chip is designed, it has two different types of core. Well, it has, you know, there's a lot of things in an M series, uh, chip, but two of the main CPU things in there are, there's, uh, cores that are designed to run as fast as possible, but, uh, at sort of like a more power cost. And then there's cores that are designed to run like not as, that they won't get workloads done as quickly, but they'll use less power. So typically we call these performance and efficiency cores is the terminology that's often adopted for that, right?

• 1:09:29Speaker 00

  Icestorm, Firestorm, okay.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  Right. Icestorm and Firestorm are, are just like names they gave to these core designs or whatever, right? But that's what they are for. And the, so one of the ways that you can get much better battery life is if your operating system Can correctly identify something that can be moved on to efficiency cores, so that it's not performing as well, but maybe you didn't need it to, because it's just YouTube streaming some music in the background or whatever, right? So like, we don't really care like how responsive that is or whatever. It's just got to get that that thing done, right? You can move that on to the efficiency cores. You can make sure it's using the hardware decoder for whatever the, you know, video stream is or whatever it is.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  You can just make sure that you're using the lowest power possible configuration, and that's going to save you battery life, right?

• 1:10:18Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Intel, modern Intel cores are exactly the same way. They have segregated types like of cores on them, where they have cores that are designed to do really heavy workloads. Like if you're gaming and you want the fastest possible thing to happen, you can run things on those cores. But they also have efficiency cores, which use much less power, but wouldn't beat scores high on benchmarks, exactly like an M4's chip.

• 1:10:43Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  Got it, got it, got it.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  That's pretty neat.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  It's the, it's the new way things are being done. I'm imagining that we'll see the same thing with Zen 6. Zen 5 already had this idea of Zen 5 and Zen 5C, although it was a slightly different kind of thing. And I'm assuming that Zen 6 will be all about, we have, here's our perf core, here's our efficiency core. Like, they're gonna do the same.

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  Will they introduce a Euro core that only works for like, you know, like 14 days a month? And then the other 16 days it takes off for various holidays? And, and things like that? Is that like a, is that an option? Or even better, battery efficiency?

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, you, you can, you can load up the Euro core, and, and basically what will happen is like, some smoke starts coming out of the PC, but not in a bad way. Just like cigarette smoke comes out the fan.

• 1:11:34Speaker 00

  The long-stem cigarettes start.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Right, and it's just like, you know, like, what, uh, what is the point of this task? I don't want to do it. I'm not going to, I'm not even going to look at it until, uh, tomorrow.

• 1:11:47Speaker 03

  I thought it was, yeah, more of like a mailbox kind of situation. Like, you send it over the three weeks, and then like eventually, they come back into the office and they start answering them.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  I understand where you're going with this. I don't know, I don't know if Euro cores are coming. I'm not sure. That's a good question.

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  Oh, that's so good.

• 1:12:03Speaker 00

  Alright, well hey everybody, that has been the stand-up. Thank you very much Trash for walking us through Linux stretch. I'm actually, I'm not gonna lie to you, your Linux looks better than mine. And it does make me feel not as cool.

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  I worked hard, I worked hard.

• 1:12:17Speaker 00

  It looks very, very good and so it's inspiring me to step up my Vim game again. Make some cool stuff, so I appreciate the inspiration Trash. And I hope everybody enjoyed the world's most attended stand-up. So thank you everybody for being a part of it. Thank you Casey, ComputerEnhance.com, thank you Tej, ThePrimogen.com, I'm not really sure where.

• 1:12:40Speaker 03

  You can find me at @beaginbot on X.com.

• 1:12:46Speaker 00

  If you're really angry at TJ, go check out beaginbot, @beaginbot. Give him your feedback and of course Trash, thank you Trash, we'll link your, uh... There's like a 20% chance we'll link your .files repo in this video if we remember.

• 1:12:59Speaker 03

  Do it, do it.

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  It's okay.

• 1:13:01Speaker 00

  The name.

• 1:13:01Speaker 03

  Do you like Trash?

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  They're not ready, they're not ready.

• 1:13:03Speaker 03

  They're not.

• 1:13:04Speaker 00

  Is the stand-up, thank you very much, bye everybody.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  Bye.