Is Vibe Coding a Game?

We dive deep into the controversial idea that "gaming is dead" because everyone will soon just build their own games using AI. Joining as always is legendary game developer Casey Muratori to help break down the history of gaming tools, the rise of "Friendship Slop," and whether "vibe coding" can ever truly replace traditional game design.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey, welcome to the stand-up.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Right, it's like.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Uh, anyways, I'm sorry.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  2:00 AM here, it's so early in the morning, I'm like, fast asleep. Trash is leaving, he's going away to, uh, secret land, I don't know where.

• 0:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, Trash, where are you going?

• 0:23Speaker 03

  I'm going to the conference in Atlanta.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  Oh, Render ATL.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  Hold on, guys, guys.

• 0:30Speaker 03

  I'm leaving like an out two hours.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  I haven't moved the ticket over, okay, we just got done doing our weekly complaint about Riverside. Okay, you didn't even let me get into in-progress, you guys just went so fast. I mean, move it over here, we're done now, okay, we can do the intro, Trash, why don't you tell us about what you're doing, Trash?

• 0:47Speaker 00

  Wait, you do the intro, you gotta do the intro.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  Your mic?

• 0:49Speaker 03

  Wait, why do I hear two primes?

• 0:51Speaker 02

  I don't know what you did to your mic, but you're a thousand times louder than you were about five seconds ago, just as a quick heads up.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  I'm a thousand times louder?

• 0:58Speaker 02

  Chat is, chat is like way, spamming way too dank and a bunch of other stuff.

• 1:02Speaker 03

  That's a different mic.

• 1:03Speaker 02

  His ears are exploding.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  I didn't touch anything, oh my goodness.

• 1:07Speaker 03

  It's because it's Riverside, I'm telling you.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  No, it's not Riverside.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  No, because he's not sending Riverside audio of his own mic to Twitch, he's destroying that himself.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I must have pushed a button, I don't know, there you go, chat, it's back, it's normal. Okay, I'll take, I'll take the L on this one.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  Theory in action. We only have 45 minutes, start the podcast, somebody start the podcast.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  I'm literally trying, and then they're like, Trash, where are you going? And I'm just like, bro, I gotta do the intro, okay.

• 1:34Speaker 00

  Do it.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Hey!

• 1:36Speaker 00

  Do it.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Welcome to the stand-up, today we are talking about the intro, no, I'm just reading what's on the screen. Today we are talking about is gaming dead, are agents the new game? What is friendship slop and can vibe coding a game be a game? Of course, today with us as always, we have the legendary KC Miratori, which is a legendary programmer, he knows everything, he's gonna teach us all the stuff we need to know. Thank you, Casey.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  Literally, there are no legends about me, so I don't know where it comes from, but okay, continue.

• 2:06Speaker 01

  Not true!

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Oh, we're starting some.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Oh, not true, Casey, they're already myth, you've already been mythologicalized, and so you're already like way beyond everything.

• 2:15Speaker 00

  That time I fought the dragon was awesome.

• 2:17Speaker 03

  Sex, yeah, sex spiral Casey.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, sex spiral Casey, we all know about this.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Good point, that is a legend.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  That is a legend.

• 2:23Speaker 00

  I got a slug story that I'm gonna, I've been waiting to roll out, that's the sequel to that, that, so we're, one day, it'll happen, anyway, continue, Prime.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I did not realize that slugs also have some very fantastic story. Also with us today, we have Trash. Trash is also a legend, but in his own way, for having one password, and which was hacked. Uh, TJ.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  Whatever.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  TJ, co-host, king of puns, dad of dads. Thank you very much for joining us.

• 2:52Speaker 03

  He's my dad.

• 2:53Speaker 02

  I made a putt-putt game recently, so that's kind of my game dev history, so I just wanted to share.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Like putt-putt saves the zoo, like that putt-putt?

• 3:02Speaker 02

  No, like mini golf, I don't know what putt-putt is.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  Putt-putt saves the zoo?

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, why, who is this putt-putt, and why do they need to save a zoo?

• 3:10Speaker 00

  Jeez, guys, come on, we're talking about.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Click.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  So, in gaming history, you may have heard of something called the Secret of Monkey Island, or the Scum Engine, S-C-U-M-M, story creation utility for Maniac Mansion, anyone? Anyone?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  I've heard of some of those words before, but I don't know anything about them.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've actually heard all those words, I've just never heard them in that order.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Wait, is this in the same uni, is same people as Freddy Fish?

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Okay, all right, well, now we're talking, Casey.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  The guy who basically, like, created the modern point-and-click adventure, Ron Gilbert, okay? And his team, like Dave Taylor, like these guys.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  They were at LucasArts, the game company that was, you know.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  I know that.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  Founded by, that was like a Joe, George Lucas sub-studio thing.

• 4:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  They left that after making the, after making Scum and the tools for it, and shipping a bunch of stuff, like, you know.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  They made Scrum, the thing we base this podcast on?

• 4:15Speaker 00

  No, I know, I know, sorry.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I know, sorry.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Sorry. So, uh, they let, they left, they left LucasArts at one point, and formed a company called Humongous Entertainment. And that, they made, they had a series of games for kids, they made kids games. It was a putt-putt saves zoo, using Scum, using the engine that they made at LucasArts, they had a deal that they would keep kind of, uh, sending, they would basically share their changes back to LucasArts in exchange for being able to continue using the engine, or something like this. So then they made putt, that series of putt-putt games, they made the series of Freddy Fish games, they had a thing called Sly, uh, Sly Fox, something like this, some Spy, Spy Fox, something like this, I don't remember.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  And then Pajamasam 2, right, Casey?

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Pajamasam.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  That I know. Okay, you just picked all of the ones that I didn't know.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  No, they're real names!

• 5:05Speaker 02

  No, they're amazing!

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Hey, is that HTTP? Get that out of here, that's not how we order coffee, we order coffee via SSH, terminal.shop. Yeah, you want a real experience, you want real coffee, you want awesome subscriptions so you never have to remember again? Oh, you want exclusive blends with exclusive coffee and exclusive content? Then check out Kron, you don't know what SSH is? Well, maybe the coffee's not for you.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Remember how we said we had 45 minutes?

• 5:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, go.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Where are we going with the story?

• 5:44Speaker 02

  This is history of gaming, so it's important, it's relevant.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  You can't talk about gaming and then be like, I have no idea what putt-putt is.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  You guys didn't even know Freddy Fish.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  All right, well, if you guys haven't beaten Battletoads, you can't talk about gaming, okay, I'm setting up my own Google post, okay?

• 5:59Speaker 03

  See, I know Battletoads.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Oh, good, we can all gatekeep.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  Earthworm Gen.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Good, good.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  Battletoads was pretty hard, I only got to play it at first, I mean, we never had a Nez, rather, at NES, so.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Oh, I didn't realize you pronounced it with a Z, that's unique.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  Ness.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  I just say Nintendo.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, anyway, continue with the setup, so, what are, what are, what are we talking about? We're talking about some guy made a tweet.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Okay, so, yes, today, well, it spawned, it's, it is all spawned off from a guy making a tweet, which is rather silly, which he said something along the lines of this right here, in fact, we can bring it up, which says, I'm pretty sure gaming as a category is dead, because everyone is just gonna build their own games. Games don't have ongoing maintenance costs, everyone can kind of just generate it. Now, I, I mean, I'm sure, just like a lot of you, that might have seemed a little silly. Right, I, I don't think that that is going to be the case, I don't think everybody's just gonna generate games, just like not everybody's gonna be a programmer, even if programming was for Freezy.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  And so, of course, I was not about that, I'm like, I don't think so, I think it's, it's not necessarily that, and he said, the game doesn't even have to be good, that's not what, people just wanna be able to play whatever games, playing the agent is the game, of course, then I found that to be a little bit ridiculous, but I started thinking about it. And then, uh, this is his kind of final point, which is billions of people would rather, uh, AI chat than read a book. People would rather play an agent, not a, play a traditional prepackaged game. Now, there's a lot more to this, and I was just trying to give like the best kind of walkthrough of his top-level points, but this really spawns off, is gaming going to be dead? Are we seeing a revolution in gaming?

• 7:36Speaker 01

  And since we have legendary game developer KC Miratori, I thought this would be a good time to talk about, uh, a little bit about that, and is it actually possible that gaming can in fact be dead?

• 7:48Speaker 00

  I mean, I guess the, the problem primarily here is just that I think the person is kind of making a very strange leap of, a, a business-like leap from something that is just an aspect, something that could happen to some people, right, is the way I would say it. The first thing to understand is like, people don't play and buy, or buy and play prepackaged games as the primary revenue generator in games anymore, anyway. So this is kind of very antiquated thinking.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  What he's talking about already happened, it's called like Fortnite and Roblox and stuff like this, like, and Minecraft, it's already, already, gaming moved on from what this person is thinking of, and already provides the thing that this person is thinking of. Specifically, that you can have these sort of like inexpensive, not particularly, you know, customizable, whatever, experiences that people just kind of make. But the thing this person is missing is, what people actually wanted to do is be with their friends and share them with their friends and experience them, and gaming already made those things, and they already account for revenue.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  So, they're sort, they sort of had a semi-good idea in this tweet, if they had had it 15 years ago, or whatever, the game industry already did all this, and the only degree to which AI will really affect this is, you know, those platforms, like a Roblox, like Fortnite and so on, you will probably see the ability to use, employ AI increasingly much in platforms like this, to make different kinds of content.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  I've literally heard, and I don't know why it has not been produced yet, but I've literally heard people at companies, very prominent game companies, explain things like, we can see that there will probably be a thing that's like sort of TikTok, where you can kind of quickly go through games that are very brief and small, and things like that. So, all of this stuff is already known, I don't think it will have pretty much any effect on gaming as a category, except possibly like in the much smaller, like, if we're talking about indie games and how it affects that, or something like, in the much, much, much lower, less significant part of the revenue stream.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Um, so, so, hold on. I just have to take a quick step back. You know, I just realized something. Unreal Engine is, you could call it a game for developing games.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  And then it made Fortnite, which is a game where you can develop games. Is Fortnite a self-hosted compiler yet? Do you build Fortnite, do you build Fortnite with Fortnite yet? Uh, you-

• 10:35Speaker 02

  No, they're making, uh, Verse, right? They've got a sick programming language going on there.

• 10:40Speaker 00

  You, you, you don't yet, Prime, but I feel like, well, what, what I can say is that, uh, the, like, there is sort of like Unreal Engines in Unreal Engines and stuff. I feel like there's things like the, the, uh, the Epic Store has like Unreal Engines bundled in it for launching things, for launching things that have Unreal Engine in it and so, so you're, you're not far. Uh, but I don't think literally what you want, it maybe not yet, but I, they'll get there. They'll get there, Prime.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  I, I do think there's a lot, because we've kind of already immediately went straight into what is called Friendship Slop. Now, there's a lot of debate on what exactly Friendship Slop is. Uh-

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Fortnite is, Casey, you said Fortnite. We're not, Fortnite is not Friendship Slop.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  I didn't, uh, yeah, Fortnite is not Friendship Slop.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  What is Friendship Slop?

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Fortnite started Friendship Slop.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  You have to figure it out by context, okay? And then you're gonna give us a definition later. Like, you're actually at a stand-up at work and you don't want to look stupid. So you nod along until you have enough context to guess what the context is.

• 11:41Speaker 03

  Oh, got it.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  At the end of the meeting, got it. That's what we've been talking about. Hey, but you have to make meaningful contributions as well along the way. So it also looks like you're listening and paying attention, so it's really gonna be different.

• 11:52Speaker 03

  Oh, mhm, that makes sense.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  That sounds like sense. But, but TJ, I would argue that Fortnite was the original Friendship Slop.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  I, I might say that the slop part is a little bit perhaps unfair there because it is very fully built out, so the like, the slop part of Friendship Slop, often if you actually look at the titles, the slop part is kind of a little more apt oftentimes. I mean, I agree, I, I, I'm not really arguing with what you're saying, but I just want to kind of throw that in there.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Okay. Uh, the reason why is that, uh, you know, because this was like, you know, 2018, 2019, when it exploded and really came on the scene.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  When you started streaming.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, right, right after I started streaming is, is, or no, right before I started streaming is when it exploded. Cause I started streaming Fortnite, people.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  What's starting exploding? Friendship Slop?

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Well, say that again?

• 12:47Speaker 03

  What was exploding? Friendship Slop?

• 12:48Speaker 00

  Fortnite.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Trash, are you even paying attention? Do you know what Friendship Slop is?

• 12:52Speaker 03

  I'm trying to, I'm trying to get context on what Friendship Slop is.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Trash, we'll explain shortly, don't worry, because we're gonna have an argument about it, so.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Okay, well, we should just have the, we should just have the argument, uh, about it now, but I would, like, the rise of, of these AI games is really, they're gonna be for Friendship Slop, I assume. Right? Which is just, you know, games in which you, I'll just explain it now, at least my definition, which probably is different than TJ's, which is, uh, games in which the primary purpose is for you to develop and continue your friendship with other people, not necessarily the game itself.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  Uh, so I, I might just, like, this is the same as my comment before. I would say that that is just a social game. To really be Friendship Slop, it also kind of has to be a fairly low-effort production. That's the, that's the only thing, it's cause like, that's the reason I think Fortnite doesn't quite qualify, because it's like, there's just too much production value, so the slop, we tend to say Friendship Slop, but usually you look at the game, it's like these crappy textures on low-rent geometry with like, character models that are kind of crappy, and there's like, not much in it, that, that, like, that's kind of, you know. So I, I don't know, I don't want to make too big of a case of it, but that's my feeling anyway.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  I would say, I agree more with Casey. I also think, unfortunately, lately, the term, I feel like, just goes for any game that's multiplayer, which is crazy, because you're like, some games are good and they have multiple people, multiple people playing, I don't understand. But like, I would say a key feature of the genre is there's no point playing at all by yourself. So like Fortnite people play by themselves. And like, I mean, like, as in not with their friends, they like solo queue.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Like, you wouldn't play, like, I don't know, big, The Big Walk or whatever the game is a bunch of people play. Like, some of these other ones, like, which, I'm not saying, that's why I like, I don't like necessarily the term Friend Slop, because then it's like, oh, the game's bad, I don't know, whatever, but like, uh, I would say a defining characteristic has to be that you cannot play solo. Like, as in you cannot just turn your computer on and go play. That would be-

• 15:02Speaker 03

  That's a terrible game if that's the case.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  It's probably-

• 15:05Speaker 02

  Well, the, the often-

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Trash, there's fun games like that.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, Trash, I think we need to have some Friendship Slop.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Well, we should play Mechachameleon together right after this.

• 15:14Speaker 03

  Do we have to play that game?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Trash, that's, whatever, that's okay.

• 15:19Speaker 00

  I think that it's probably one of those things where the, the, uh, the term kind of takes on a life of its own because we didn't have a term for this before. It's like, it's like vibe coding, like vibe coding was originally supposed to be only referring to AI coding where you just weren't really checking anything and you were just kind of like, typing in some prompts and letting it do whatever. And now people just use vibe coding to mean that you used an AI, even if you were like, I made all these test suites and I read all the codes, like, it's still vibe-coded or whatever, right? It just kind of made, it was just a term for that thing now. Friendship Slop kind of seems to be doing that, it's kind of like, hey, it's not really slop necessarily. It might be, but it might also just be this really well-made game that I play with my friends that I still called it Friendship Slop, right?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:04Speaker 03

  Wait, timeout, timeout, so the, so Friendship Slop, is that just like some term some random person made up for just like a shitty multiplayer game?

• 16:11Speaker 00

  I don't know who made it, who, I don't know who coined it.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  Like, where's this, where's this come from?

• 16:15Speaker 02

  It, it's entered into the ethos of online discourse about multiplayer games. And now it's just a word that people use.

• 16:23Speaker 03

  But is it implying like it's an AI multiplayer game? Like an AI created?

• 16:26Speaker 02

  It does a little bit, but I feel like people are sort of insinuating that you used AI to crank it out in no time at all. But also then it's getting, the line is getting blurred now because they're doing it for games that are obviously not AI, like, they were made before, it was possible to have this.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  It's, it's definitely applied to games that nobody is arguing were made with AI.

• 16:48Speaker 03

  Okay, got it, got it.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  It is notable though, Xanus just put a Wikipedia link for it, so it's more notable than Odin. So we do need to make sure that we give our dues here.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Oh, Ginger Bill, I saw Ginger Bill in the chat. Ginger Bill, you aren't notable, but Friendship Slop is in fact notable.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  How does it feel?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, how does it feel?

• 17:10Speaker 00

  What are the references? What are these, what are the high-quality references?

• 17:14Speaker 03

  Oh, great point, can we scroll to the bottom?

• 17:16Speaker 02

  In that Wikipedia article.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  I'm doing it, I'm scrolling through the bottom for you.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  I want to see what it says.

• 17:20Speaker 00

  You know, did we get a Wired article in there?

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Wow, okay, look at this.

• 17:24Speaker 00

  Holy, it's a whole, it's a-

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Let's see, yeah, so this is by-

• 17:27Speaker 00

  From something called Glizzy, whatever that is. Super Jump Magazine.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Super Jump Magazine?

• 17:35Speaker 03

  I love Super Jump Magazine.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  These might as, these might as well be the Oxford English Dictionary. I mean, let's be honest here.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  True.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  The highest quality references.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Cripe Michael. Friend, French, Friend Slop used to be a derogatory term, but hits like a gamble with your friends after changing the narrative. IGN, okay, that's IGN though.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  Oh, here's IGN to cover-

• 18:01Speaker 03

  There was Pokemon in it.

• 18:02Speaker 00

  We just need IGN to cover Odin and then we're done.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Yes, also kind of funny because Polygon gets a reference, IGN does not. Does I, is IGN not a real thing? Is it not considered citable?

• 18:13Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 18:15Speaker 03

  Real question, what does IGN stand for?

• 18:16Speaker 02

  This is-

• 18:18Speaker 00

  It's something like International Gaming News or something like that, I don't remember.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Internet Gaming News, probably, because-

• 18:24Speaker 03

  Never knew, never knew.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  I do like this idea that none of us know what something is that we've used, we've said a thousand times.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  I like how Ryan is bringing it up right now.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  In-game name.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  What?

• 18:37Speaker 02

  No, that's, that's an acronym, bro. Fine, you just got bamboozled, you just got boomerded.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  Put Gemini down and actually try to find the answer.

• 18:47Speaker 03

  This guy just listens to the LLM no matter what.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  It was launched in September 29th, 1996, and it originally stood for Imagine Games Network.

• 18:55Speaker 00

  Okay. We were totally wrong.

• 18:57Speaker 03

  That sounds awful.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  Imagine Games-

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Bro, you just got search slopped so hard, that's crazy.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  So much search slop going on. Dude, I can't tell anymore, okay? It's like 99% AI overviews, and when you think you escape AI overviews, you scroll down one section, it's a new section of AI overviews, okay? So it's like, it double whammies you every time.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  I wish they would stop putting that AI overview up there because Gemini is just not very good. And that's not even, that's the like quickest thing that Jim and I can do too. Like it's not, it didn't go away and think for 15 minutes and then come up with it. It's just like, I don't know, bro. Here we go. This is what we cash. Like here's the cash result for this thing. Good luck. And it's just like, I wish they'd stop. It's so bad.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  I had it. We were driving to an amusement park, me and my family. And we, and I asked, I think this was last, like close to last fall and we're driving. And I was wondering, when does this park close? Michigan Adventures? It's an okay amusement park, not as good as Cedar Point for those out there in the Midwest, but like it's okay. And I, and I was like, when does it close? And it goes, oh, it's already closed. It closes on October 10 or something like this, some random date, whatever the future. And it wasn't that date yet, but it was just telling me, when you get there today, the season's already over. I'm like, I already bought tickets, bro. Like, Jim and I, what are you doing?

• 20:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It's, have you ever seen National Lampoon's Vacation? It's like that.

• 20:28Speaker 03

  Oh, hell yeah.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yes, several times.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  Is there like?

• 20:30Speaker 00

  Go into Wally World, Deej.

• 20:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's like five.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  We're gonna get John Candy. We're gonna force him to ride rides with us, okay?

• 20:40Speaker 00

  So, uh, we literally have nothing to talk about in the stand-up. We're done.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  That was it, right?

• 20:48Speaker 03

  I think we're done.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  I had, I had some more to say.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  False, yeah. First off, can we do more on that? And then not only that.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  More on that?

• 20:56Speaker 01

  KC. But I don't know if you know this here, hold on, I mean, I, it's very difficult to do this, switching back and forth. But if we jump in here, we also has, this topic is vibe coding a game, a game?

• 21:09Speaker 00

  I mean, it's definitely an activity, right? And if you look back again, I, for those who don't know gaming history, which is apparently everyone. The even extremely.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  I can see how far you looked down on me just then. That was like the furthest I've ever seen you look down.

• 21:25Speaker 00

  I can't even, I like, I don't know where you are relative to me in the like panel of people here, but I would look straight down if you were on.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  That's where I am for me right now.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  Like the Brady Bunch? Oh, man.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  You're actually doing it perfectly.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  We have to have a Brady Bunch intro. What are we doing?

• 21:42Speaker 00

  So just to put some, you know, some icing on that particular cake. As early as like the C64 era, so we're talking like early eighties. There was a game shipped called Gary Kitchen's Game Maker. And Gary Kitchen was the guy who made like Pitfall, if you've ever heard of that game.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  I did, yes.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  There were, there's probably one or two other notable games by him too, but they're escaping my memory right now. But obviously Pitfall's a pretty big one.

• 22:12Speaker 00

  And he shipped a game called Game Maker, which is literally just a set of tools you can use that make a game that you can play. And it was, it was literally like the precursor to like something like actual Game Maker or Unity. If you go look it up, if you've never seen it before, running on a C64 in 64K of memory. And you could put, you could make little sprites and like a little sprite editor. You could make little sounds and like a sound editor. And you could, you know, put in some simple logic. Literally all of this was done with a joystick, like it was like you'd pick little logic statements and stuff like that. And then you made a game. Some people like to do this. It's some percentage of the population.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  It's not the majority. Most people would rather experience a game made by somebody else. It doesn't really matter how easy it is. Some people will like that kind of game, quote, and some people won't. And that probably won't change with AI.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  You said this is with C64, right?

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  How is there a C64 when C was created in 1992 slash 1993 at Bell Laboratories?

• 23:21Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't seem possible.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's C99. I totally get that, but C64? I think you just made that up.

• 23:28Speaker 00

  Shouldn't it be called the Algal Moon Creator?

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, got them.

• 23:32Speaker 02

  There's, there's C17.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Yes, there's always, that's the thing is there's always been, okay, fun, fun side quest. There's this game called Grawl or Grail, G-R-A-A-L, online. And it was this game that was, uh, I think it even got like threatened to be sued, but it had the original Zelda, uh, Super Nintendo art in it. If I'm not mistaken, or it had some level of that. And it was originally, uh, coined as like Zelda Online. This was in like 1997. And then it had to be renamed. And in it, there was a level editor where you could actually learn to do some basic programming and all that. And that's actually how I got started programming was through something like that. But almost nobody I knew who played it touched the pro, the game, the, the level editor. So you could make anything you wanted and you could program things, but nobody actually does it.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  And so when I hear like, will vibe coding games be a game? Sure. I mean, you could, you could argue that it will be a game and maybe it'll be made in such a way that things like Fortnite, you could just sit with your friends, jump on your microphone, be like, okay Fortnite, I want you to make us this kind of level because we're gonna want to battle in it. And it's gonna be like, and boom, you're now playing it, right? And so it's like, is vibe coding a game actually a game? I don't think it's necessary. I think it'd be, it's just like a condition into making an experience in an already established game at best. I'm just doubting that people or the general population is gonna be like, oh, you know what? I don't want to play games. I want to go and vibe code games because that's what everybody's gonna do. Because it's cheap and fun and it's gonna be, it's just like, we're all gonna have a great time.

• 25:01Speaker 03

  Is it cheap?

• 25:03Speaker 01

  And by the way, that little side story with Grawl, uh, I went to an event and, uh, he runs like this high school hack club, uh, big one. It was at Open Sauce and the person who helps run it, he learned how to program using Grawl in 2008. And I learned how to do it in 1998. Same game, same level editor, slightly different. And it was like one of like 300 people in the world who learned how to program from that one game and we high-fived together. It was great.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  I was four. I'm playing Grawl right now.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  You are?

• 25:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. Apparently you can play it on the web. I'm playing right now.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  I think it's still alive, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  There, there was 1,500 Grawians online when I just checked.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Really? 1,500?

• 25:44Speaker 03

  I don't even know what I'm doing, but I'm playing.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  This means people can still learn to program even today.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  With Grawl.

• 25:50Speaker 00

  They can.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  The only acceptable form of learning how to program.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Trash, I'm interested in, in your thoughts. Have you, uh, have you attempted to vibe code any games?

• 26:01Speaker 03

  I actually have attempted to vibe code like 20 games, like behind the scenes. I try, I try all the time. So I'm like, I have an idea for a game. I'm like cooking. I'm like, this is such a good game. So actually I have a one game I want to tell you about. I tried to do this dig simulator where we could race.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Say that again? What'd you just say?

• 26:17Speaker 03

  I, I tried to vibe code a game called Dig Simulator.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Okay, I think you said dig simulator.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  Oh, well, I could do that too. Maybe I did that. So just imagine us.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  That's called X.com.

• 26:27Speaker 03

  Yeah. So imagine.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  I thought it was this receipts app.

• 26:31Speaker 03

  I mean, that's, that's the other one. No, so hold on, timeout. I want to tell you about this. This is a great idea.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, go Trash, go. I'm so interested. I'm interested.

• 26:39Speaker 03

  All four of us basically are sitting in a virtual sandbox. We all get to pick our tools, like a fork or a spoon. And we all have to dig to like some specific threshold to see who can get there the fastest kind of thing. So I was trying to make this game out like a floating spoon and stuff. It is so hard to get the graphics right with LLMs. That's like my current, so the functionality is typically fine. But it's like the look of it that I just can't get good. Like if you look at all the AI like games, they all kind of look the same more or less. Some of them look really good, which I don't actually believe.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Have you, have you tried hooking up Blender and then like, the only way I've made it look any remotely okay? Is I hook up some sort of graphical program and I say, hey, you build it and then you have Fable rate you as a triple A harsh game critic.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  Do you actually prompt it like that?

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  You are a triple A CEO.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Yes. And I'll be like, you rate the models on a scale of zero to 10, 10 being triple A great. And you will not stop until you get a 10 out of 10 from the harsh triple A game critic. And it will generally actually get like, after like five hours, you'll get something that looks better. But I've also had it to where like a golfer, I made a golfing game, impossible to get it to stand above the ball. It's always.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Prime, I have to stop you. I have to stop you. You did not make a golfing game. You made a level editor for a golfing game and did not finish the game. I need that to be out there and in, in the world. That's what happened.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  I don't know if you know this, but there's been people outside of our little friend group that have played our games. And the only game people loved was my game because you could make your own golf levels and then play your own golf levels.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  That's just not true because Josh and his family are playing and his kids don't count. They're harsh critics. Okay? They made fun of us and said they could vibe code better than us when they watched the tower. Okay, so.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  All right. Anyway, sorry. Keep going, Trash.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  Trash, I want to hear more about your games.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  I don't even know.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  I want to hear more about them.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Games you're making. Your game ideas are great.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  They are pretty good. Well, I tried to make another start.

• 28:39Speaker 03

  They are pretty good.

• 28:40Speaker 00

  You had to consider that for a little while and then you were like, you know what?

• 28:43Speaker 02

  They are.

• 28:43Speaker 00

  You know what Prime's right about something?

• 28:45Speaker 03

  Well, cause it's like, I try to think about things I would play.

• 28:47Speaker 00

  How good my game ideas are.

• 28:49Speaker 03

  I don't want to give you guys all the special sauce, cause now I get, I need to do the blender thing. And then maybe, maybe the digging game will actually be a real thing. Cause I was gonna make it for some like hackathon, so I started like making all these random games.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Started cheating, building. You're building it for a hackathon, but you're just building it all beforehand? That's literally cheating, trash. The definition of cheating, trash.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  Well, I was gonna do the hackathon, then clearly I didn't. And then I just started building it myself, okay? Cause I didn't, I didn't make it in time.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  Give us one more idea, give us one more idea.

• 29:17Speaker 03

  Well, I was just making my own, like, so like my kids love Pokemon, so I was just making my own version of Pokemon. So like a variation of all of them.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  Oh, sick.

• 29:24Speaker 03

  It actually looks pretty good. And not gonna show you, it's not ready yet, but making like my own, like, uh, my like game boy version, okay? Okay?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  I'm sorry for laughing, I'm sorry for laughing.

• 29:35Speaker 03

  Why are you laughing at me?

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Because. I'm excited, trash.

• 29:38Speaker 03

  I'm almost like, I'm like.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  The response of every person I've ever met making a vibe coded game is like, oh, I'm making it, it's awesome. I can't show you yet, it's not ready. It's like, I'm in that phase.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Hey Prime, has more Doria?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, show more Doria, okay, tough guy?

• 29:54Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 29:55Speaker 03

  Did they ever finish, did you ever finish the game?

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, at this point, I would call it like effectively feature complete. I just have to make it fun now, like I have to think about.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  To make it fun?

• 30:05Speaker 01

  What the fuck does that mean? Okay, let me give you, let me give you an example.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  That's not how games work.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  I'm done, but it's not fun. It's not fun.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Hold your legendary tongue, wench. Let me tell you about this, okay? First off, making a game in which has cards and all that and being properly balanced, that's like 99% of the work. Making the actual tower defense, putting towers down, having them level up, choosing all the different types of upgrades, all that, that's easy. But making it so that there's actually like feeling like risk, reward, suspense, like actual, like, that takes no programming experience effectively, but is infinity hard. Right? Like that is actually the hard part. I have a game, it's just not fun yet.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  Prime literally is doing what he's said.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  Call that an engine, not a game. The game is the part you're calling hard.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  I thought it was, yeah, I thought design, I'm stuck on game design. That's like, that's the harder.

• 31:02Speaker 00

  That's, that's the thing that's the game, right? The rest of it is the engine for the game.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Okay, well, mine is so crappy, I don't know what the difference between an engine and a game is.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  The game is very much not, not done yet.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  Okay, I didn't realize our program was an engine. So Prime literally did what I did. You could play it, but it's not fun yet.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  It's not fun yet, but you're.

• 31:23Speaker 00

  You did the part that I do, Prime. You, you did the part that I typically do. And you can't do the part that I also can't do, which is how to design the game.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  I actually need help, I need somebody that's good at game design, cause I have it fully working. I have like every hook you need, you can hook into anywhere. Oh, a projectile lands and it's a critical, boom, you have a callback. You can mutate the stats to like do stuff, you can count, you can do all, like you can add, oh, ah, it's fantastic.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  That sounds really fun.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Well, Nick, Nick Dobbs would love this game, there's callbacks that he can hook into. So he'd be like, that's the game, that's the game of the future is you hook into callbacks.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Great point, send, reply with the source code to, to it.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  But that means you can do anything now. Effectively, I built Fortnite.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  We got callbacks.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all callbacks, baby, it's good.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  I know we're joking here, but just to put a finer point on it. If you can do anything, that's just further evidence that there isn't a game, right? A game is the absence of all the things that you can't do, right? It's carving out exactly the space that's like, this is the set of things that makes this like beautiful, organic interaction. That's like both fun to do in the small and immediately like, uh, easy to grab onto, but sort of infinitely complex. So you can just keep spending time thinking more about it and learning more about how it works and coming up with strategies and so on, right?

• 32:45Speaker 03

  That's why my digging game's gonna be a number one hit.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Your digging game is friendship slop.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  Followed, but okay.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Your game is friendship slop, trash, you're making it.

• 32:55Speaker 00

  His game did sound like friendship slop.

• 32:57Speaker 03

  Imagine, imagine we all, we all had a fork, we had five minutes to dig as much as we could with a fork. You can do, do different strategies, you can scoop, spill, like how would you do it? You know, that's a friendship slop game right there.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 33:09Speaker 03

  This time next year, I'm like a booter, cause of this game.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Trash. If we, but there's ways for us after we dig, we can turn what we've dug out into money and buy bigger forks and do other stuff, right?

• 33:23Speaker 03

  You could, you know?

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Cause that.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Wait, hold, wait, TJ, are you suggesting we dig up like valuable items to thus sell?

• 33:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Like we dig up gold?

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Yep. Yeah, right. And then we can get bigger stuff and eventually you can get all the way up to like bucket wheel excavator. You know what I'm saying? And we're just out there operating bucket wheel excavators, one of the largest machines on earth. And that would be fun, trash, now we're talking.

• 33:46Speaker 03

  See? My game is fun, telling you.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  I will say in Prime's defense, uh, he recognizes that he has a lot of work left on Mordoria. So even though we're memeing right now, I will give him a little bit, I'll, I'll help him out a little bit here. We're, we're aware, we're aware of the status, but.

• 34:02Speaker 03

  Oh no.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  He's making progress.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  But, but, but at this point, it is like, it is complete in some sense. It's just the, the hardest part, which this is my whole reason why I think people aren't gonna vibe code their games is exactly like, this experience I'm having is why it's not fun. It's because you can make everything you need, like, because if my game is rather simple, it's not like I need to be a legendary game programmer to make this work. I went and used flame graphs to see how much like time. 60% of the time, I'm waiting for the next game tick. At 60 frames a second, on, on a debug build. It's just like, I'm not even doing anything, it's just like hanging out there, very, very simple. No talent needed to build this actual game.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  But if I could vibe code that in one day, it would still take me two years to really figure out how to make the game actually like ultra fun. And so no one's gonna build, like no one's gonna, no one's gonna do that, that's not fun. And so it has to be like a completely different type of game that this works on. But then how can you really make that a fun, consistent experience? Like how, cause even that would become boring because it becomes the same thing eventually. It becomes so cookie cutter that these fun generative games are the same game, just with different skins on. I'm just, I just don't buy it, I just don't, I currently don't buy it.

• 35:18Speaker 00

  I think the, you, you are correct. And the different type of game part of it is like, just imagine in your head that you have TikTok, but everything that comes up is like Trash's thing where it's like, dig with the fork real quick. And you dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig for like 15 seconds and then you scroll to the next game. Right? It's not, it's not actually something that's actually all that, uh, like doesn't have any longevity or whatever. And then those just kind of, the algorithm ranks those, everyone's vibe coded game that you can only really play for 30 seconds, but that's fine, cause it's the TikTok of games. That's what it will look like, right?

• 35:59Speaker 00

  It, it, it won't, it won't be like you said, because in order to, the producing the thing is not the hard part. It was finding something new that's in a very rare space, which AI is kind of are uniquely bad at finding for you, uh, is, is the hard part. But that's not necessarily what you would be building for this category in the short term, right? In the, in the near, you know, in the five year horizon, where you're just having these like slop, AI slop games. It would be more like a TikTok experience. And again, not taking over all of gaming, but it would be some, it would be a platform that someone could maybe make money on, because people would just do that and they just kind of scroll through that or whatever.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  You, so what you're trying to tell me is that there is a, there is a non-zero market for, uh, a Mario Party like friendship slop game. In which people can stream together and play generative, little one-off difficulties potentially. And it'd be hard to expand beyond that.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Well, it's, it's not so much I'm saying hard or easy to expand beyond. I'm more saying that the places where people are imagining that AI would somehow make some new category, the, that are big, that's bigger, that, or that's, that's a different thing, that's a more complicated thing, we already built. Those things exist, they're like Fortnite, they're like whatever, we have them, they're out there. So you're not really creating a new category by using it. But there is a new category that you could see being created in the short term by this, which is just, yeah, WarioWare basically, as a much bigger revenue stream. Like right now, WarioWare does not capture much, uh, revenue by, by volume, right? If you just looked at like, WarioWare is this tiny little sliver in a gigantic game revenue pile.

• 37:44Speaker 00

  You could see TikTok for gaming, which is just WarioWare with AI generated slop, as being a bigger revenue generator from advertising. It wouldn't be because anyone would buy it, cause no one would buy any of this stuff. But it's like, it would be a significant thing, just like TikTok is, right? It, it makes money, I, I assume, I actually don't know the, I don't know the market of TikTok, but I assume they make a significant money out of advertising or whatever.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Now I just want to build this just so we could have competitions, like when TJ's giving me lip and I'm like, I'm your boss. And he's like, no, I'm the boss. And I'm like, take it to the, take it to the court and we jump on TikTok for gaming. We play three mini games and we determine who's CEO that day.

• 38:23Speaker 02

  Yep. I do like that. I was thinking there's gotta be like, we're not that far away from being able to do something where it's Mario Party, but then like, when you set up a, a party, you can like type, everybody types in like 10 different random things. And then the AI just like smushes them together into like a bunch of random min- random mini games and you get surprised. By like the games that come up. And then what I would do is if we had multiplayer for this, I would save which ones people liked and didn't like. And then we could do some RLHF on this bad boy. And then before you know it, we could be inserting ads inside of those subtly and making a trillion dollars.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  Do we have a billion dollar business right now?

• 38:56Speaker 01

  I think we might have just made a billion dollar idea. And honestly, these are the problems with these types of ideas.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  Someone start the repo.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  It's trash.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  I think I saw a Black Mirror about this.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Trash. Here's the problem is that we're all gonna leave secretly making our own billion dollar company after this. We're gonna be about 15 props in, being like, you're a horse game critic.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  The thing is, these are not, like, everyone has already thought of this, is my point. Like, the game companies already know this, right? We're all thinking of exactly what this should look like right now, not us.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  Oh, you think Zelnik, CEO of Take-Two, that has managed to make hundreds of billions of dollars is smarter than me? He only got that because of nepotism, idiot. I'm the smart guy.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  I know, it's true. We're the smart people on this podcast. Game developers don't know shit.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  They don't know shit.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  That's why people come here, is for our really smart takes and knowledge.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Oh dude, I'm being fair. There has also been some tragically bad games that cost hundreds of millions of dollars. So it's not, not all game developers are in fact good, but.

• 39:59Speaker 03

  That's true. That's true.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  No, and, and that's why I'm saying this idea is not that good, because I'm like, everyone's already had it and they're not that bright, guys.

• 40:09Speaker 03

  They didn't do it better than me. I'm gonna do it better. That's why I'm gonna win.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  I worked at Netflix, Casey. I have ideas, okay?

• 40:16Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, okay. Uh, the, the other thing I would point out is like, because we are so smart on this podcast, which I think we just demonstrated with all of these ideas. Where is our like premium subscription newsletter that costs like $2,000 a month for like analysis or what, like, you know what I'm talking about? Like, one of those like premium, like analyst newsletters that we're gonna tell you like what's up kind of a thing, right? Like, you know what I'm saying?

• 40:43Speaker 03

  That's another good idea.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  I like that idea.

• 40:45Speaker 03

  Keep the ideas going. Keep the ideas going.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  We need, we need that.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  That was computer even more enhanced, or something like that.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Where we like AI generate, like a, a thing that talks about the state of the, the market.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Casey, Casey, do you want to, instead of computer enhanced, do you want to make a sub-company called Software Enhanced?

• 41:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Where we talk about all of this?

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. Uh, like the Gartner hype cycle and things like that, like all of that stuff. We need, we need to be into that. Where's the stand-up hype cycle and things like that and graphs, like those four sector graphs, which just, where they just clearly just place dots wherever they wanted. There's no actual data. They just put dots where they think they should go on like some hypothetical axis. We could do that. We can make that graph.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Uh, Microsoft is leading innovation, Casey.

• 41:35Speaker 00

  Okay, sorry, I'm sorry.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Based on the Gartner graph, Microsoft is outcompeting AWS in AI innovation.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Can I just, I have to stop us really quick and just read an insane chat message that is like an offshoot of the TikTok for gaming idea, which was just popular court. This is from C17er. A TikTok-like experience where watchers get to decide the case.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  That's just such an, just you're flipping through the channels and voting on whether guilty or not guilty.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  That's so insane. I just had to surface it for everybody else. So such a bad idea could get some airtime.

• 42:11Speaker 00

  Love it.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  It's such a bad idea. I like it.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  All right. Uh, and C17 just got banned. Okay, now the end. All right, uh.

• 42:22Speaker 03

  Oh man.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  All right. So I think that that's effectively all we're gonna talk about. I'm not gonna lie to you though. I do think there is really something to this, like this TikTok of game thing. It's just that you have to purely make it so social that you have to like include Twitch chat as a part of it or all this. So you just really get, you know, a whole bunch of people playing it and, you know, experiencing it. There could be something there.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  You're falling for exactly the same fallacy that the guy who said the tweet that gaming is dead right now, which is that, well, since I like doing things with Twitch chat and we do stuff together and it makes the experience fun, other people will do the same thing.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Oh, I know. Don't worry. I, I understand that. Uh, I'm a fallacy machine.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. That's good. I just wanted to make sure. I think the, the, the thing, just like overall for this whole like vibe coding games thing, it is like, I have fun doing it. Like I'm having fun. I'm making a few, like, I made a fun putt-putt game for our team and some other stuff. I'm working on a fishing game. Not putt-putt save the zoo though, sorry.

• 43:28Speaker 03

  Trump said your game sucks.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, your game sucks.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's because Ein was in 3D and he's like, the only putt-putt games that are good are stickman golf. And then he made his and he still couldn't get the physics right for the ball to go into the hole in a 2D game.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  2D games are extremely difficult physics, okay? Not like 3D, 3D games are easy. It's 2D games that are actually extremely difficult.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  So.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Cause you have one less D to work with, guys. Like, you, you're missing an entire D. How can you get the physics to work without that D?

• 43:56Speaker 01

  I'm not missing a D, Casey.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. The D simulator, as Trash was talking about earlier.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  I'll make it.

• 44:05Speaker 00

  Dealist.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  But like, I recognize that I'm a kind of guy that enjoyed like tinkering with Neovim and having fun on Linux, but like before LLMs. So, so it's like, it doesn't, it, I don't think it translates really at all. And people who like get this into their head are getting a little confused about what things they think are fun versus what thing everyone is fun. And it's like, I think that's really the, the big thing for it. And I would say gaming's probably not that. I'm gonna go out there on a limb and I'm gonna throw it out there. I'm gonna stake that. It's not that.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Um, I, you know, me living in Rapid City, South Dakota, not known as a, a luscious tech hub. I have yet to meet one person that was like, yo, I like being on a computer. So.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Perhaps I'm in a bit of an echo chamber, but I just somehow doubt that all these people are gonna be like, I'm gonna make my own game now. Like, I just don't think.

• 45:00Speaker 03

  What do they like to do?

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Uh, they like drinking, they like playing games, they like going out to eat, they like hiking. Nature stuff, touching grass, shooting things, fishing things, boating.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  When I was riding down the trail, a person came up on their horse and said to me, I like vibe coding.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  My agents are working right now.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  You know what my wife calls it? Dude, my wife walked into my office one day.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  Even my horse got an agent. Working on carrots.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry. My stuff froze there for a second. What is your wife?

• 45:34Speaker 02

  What did your wife say?

• 45:35Speaker 03

  My wife walked in like the other week, and maybe I told this story before, but she was like, are you jive coding? And I was like, what? Cause she heard the term like on Instagram or something. She's like, is that jive coding? And I was like, oh my god.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  Why isn't there something called jive coding?

• 45:50Speaker 03

  Disco ball fell from the ceiling. I put on disco shoes. I was like, yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  Why isn't there something called jive coding? There, someone needs to make something called jive coding right now.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  It's a thing now.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, just throw some sunglasses, get some funky music going on. You got jive coding.

• 46:06Speaker 03

  I'd be jive coding. What does it mean? I don't know. It's a feeling.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter what it mean. It's provocative, okay?

• 46:16Speaker 00

  Great point, great point.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  We're gonna have to end this here. Thank you, everybody, for watching this stand-up on Is the Future of Gaming Making Games? Is Friendship Slop in There? All that fun stuff. I, hopefully you learned some amazing things. And this is all for today. Everybody say goodbye.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Bye.