Casey VS Microsoft

We dive deep into the recent Windows 11 update and Microsoft's claim of a "performance-first" rewrite for the Run dialogue. Is 94 milliseconds actually fast, or is it just "cope"? Casey breaks down why measuring UI responsiveness in FPS matters, the "racing the beam" philosophy, and why he’s officially done with Windows for good. We also get an update on Trash's "unethical" Pokémon card bot army, his Slack status management at Netflix, and why "Family Feud" on a floppy disk was the peak of gaming.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Before we do a sweet intro, I want to do an even sweeter intro. And I would love to hear about Trash's snack of the day, but before we do that Trash, I think you've been prompting a little too much, because I think I just caught you prompting right now. Right before this thing catch-

• 0:13Speaker 01

  I was responding to a Slack message at work, okay? Okay?

• 0:17Speaker 02

  You don't have an AI to do that for you? What the, dude? You respond manually to Slack messages? 1987 calls, geez.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  I just realized I'm the only one in this group that has a real job, so I'm sorry.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  What?

• 0:31Speaker 01

  But us real people-

• 0:33Speaker 00

  Dude, I, okay, I'm not gonna lie to you guys, when people say that to me on Twitter, it does act- That's how you can one-guy me pretty good. Is saying that I'm just like, "Mol-"

• 0:48Speaker 00

  Uh, anyways, I'm sorry.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  Exor posted, uh, uh, the, one of the guys who does shaders, like, you know, this cool, like, GL shaders-

• 0:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, Exor Dev. Shout out, Exor Dev.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  Uh, and, and he posted a poll that, that was like, "How, how is-" "Is it making your job more or less competitive?", I think was what he was asking. Um, so I was like, "Where's the option for 'don't have real job, don't know'?" And, you know. So I'm, I'm okay with it. I, I, you can't one-guy me that way. I did, you sensitive about this, Prime?

• 1:16Speaker 00

  It, yeah, I am. I am obviously, I'm triggered, okay? Just let it go.

• 1:21Speaker 02

  I can understand that. It's fair. I mean, it's a ton of work doing, like, content stuff. So much work that, like, it's more work than most normal jobs, so like, I don't know why people wouldn't think it's a job, but, you know.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  Well, the thing that, the thing that irks me the most is that I internally put on timelines on myself. And I try to build as much as possible, so I'm not like a dummy when it comes to programming.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  And so, you know, I'm learning, I'm learning Odin right now, having a great time. And just like, oh, I don't know why it gets me.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  I have the copium, dude.

• 1:51Speaker 00

  There's, I know, there's just like a couple things that get me, and that's just one of those- It's just, I don't know why, I gotta let it go.

• 1:57Speaker 03

  Fortunately, you only told us, Prime, and not anybody else, so that's good.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Not everyone's really gonna bring this up every day.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, though. I'm sorry, you're learning to do what? I've never heard. I don't know what you're talking about.

• 2:11Speaker 03

  I checked the Wikipedia page, not there.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Odin? I've never seen an article about that in any reputable publication. Odin? I'm sorry, like, is that, that's some god, I think. I looked it up.

• 2:24Speaker 00

  I'm actually trying to figure out this whole god situation, okay? So I'm starting with Odin, you know, the Norse roots.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, quick point of contention, does that make Odin, the Norse god, a notable character? Is Wikipedia saying he's real? Like, can Odin the language be a fictitious programming language? Created out of thin air by Ginger Bill, right?

• 2:46Speaker 02

  I don't know. I just need to know if Wired Magazine has ever talked about the Norse god Odin. If they have, then I'm told, then he probably exists. That's what I would say, anyway.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Believable.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  And he's probably notable, right?

• 3:00Speaker 00

  I would assume he's notable.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. If some Wired Magazine author talked about their imaginary friend when they were 12, then that's notable, because, hey, they wrote it in Wired Magazine.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Man, the power that Wired Magazine employees have.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  I just wanted to circle back really quick on the real job thing that Trash brought up. I was just saying, Trash, if you want, we can help you join the rest of us.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's true.

• 3:28Speaker 03

  And I also would like to throw out there, Trash is the only person with a real job. Why are you here during the workday?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is a good question, Trash.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Good question, TJ.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Now you're trying to make me join you.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  What's your current Slack status? I just want to know. What is your current Slack status? Is it green?

• 3:47Speaker 01

  This is the worst. I hate it when we bring up my Slack. It says "out of office until 11:30", thank you very much.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  Also 30 minutes after the podcast.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  That's every day.

• 3:59Speaker 01

  This is what I do though.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, nothing to do with the podcast.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  I make up for this time though. I make sure I work extra hard for an hour and a half.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Don't worry Trash, the recording's going. They know it's happening.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  I hate them.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  Trash, everyone at Netflix knows. Apparently when you show up in office, they're like, yo, it's Trash from the stand-up.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Hey, is that HTTP? Get that out of here. That's not how we order coffee. We order coffee via SSH. Terminal.shop. Yeah, you want a real experience? You want real coffee? You want awesome subscriptions so you never have to remember again? Oh, you want exclusive blends with exclusive coffee? And exclusive content? Then check out Kron. You don't know what SSH is? Well, maybe the coffee's not for you.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Now I'm all self-conscious. It's like, oh. I'm gonna work so hard today.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  You're gonna prom so good?

• 4:57Speaker 02

  You're gonna open up Netflix, it's gonna be so...

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Hold on, I gotta kick off an agent, so I don't feel so bad about being like that.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, kick one off.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  Alright Trash, what's the snack of the day? You gotta give us a little bit of the snack of the day. This is my blocker right now.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  I have these giggles. Which are like a healthy version of Skittles.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  No such thing.

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Did you have to go healthy because you ate too many snacks?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Well, my wife is like very much into like anti-food dye stuff. So this is like the candy you can get that doesn't have like the food dyes. And my daughter's like allergic to some of that stuff, so we're very like alert about that. And then we have these like Easter candy things. Some Annie's gummies.

• 5:33Speaker 00

  Ah, he is risen, yes.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  And then I got an orange juice because I went to get breakfast right before this. I just got here right on time. I got a quick workout in, got my quick pump. Ate a pancake and then sped on home.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Do you eat any non-carbohydrate foods?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know. I try not to.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, Trash, you eat.

• 5:57Speaker 03

  So do you have like a

• 5:58Speaker 01

  No, I'm a big meat eater. I'm like a big steak guy.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Okay, so you do.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  We, oh, by the way, we do need an update. This is true. Trash, the receipts, how are they going? How's your wife doing? What, what kind of things have you been?

• 6:11Speaker 01

  It's really funny, uh, that you bring that up.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  It sounds like it.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  I use it specific, I use it specifically for myself. I use it for myself now, so I could just like tell my wife when I'm doing the laundry. And so I have a huge list of just laundry. So then whenever something comes up, I'm just gonna pop it out. I don't know when.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Laundry list.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Literally.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Essentially, what you made was a self-promotion, a household self-promotion.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  I have converted it to making me look good.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 6:41Speaker 03

  That's smart, Trash. That's smart.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  And I'm not bringing it up. I'm not bringing it up. It's just when something happens and I'll be like, check this out.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Check out all this laundry I did.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Hit the scroll and then scroll all the way, baby. So that's how I've been doing it. She has a bunch on me, actually, which is not a good thing, but it's okay.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  All right, all right.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  It's okay. Prime, what about on your side? Are you still getting reseeded?

• 7:02Speaker 00

  Okay, uh, Trash, I'm gonna tell you the truth. I went to my wife and we talked about it. And she said, I'm not gonna use receipts because it's too toxic.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  I'm so shocked.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  Wise woman.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  I'm so shocked.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  Wait a second, though. Wait a second.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  She would probably destroy Prime.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  That, to me, sounds like Trash just needs to work on the PR, because that, to me, sounds like a reluctant, I'm not gonna use it, like, I wanted to use this to document all the crap that you're doing, Prime, but I don't wanna do it because it sounds a little too bad. So if, if like, if Trash changes the messaging to like, help your husband become a better person.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  Right. Come alongside your husband on his journey to adulthood, where he figures out.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Trash just needs PR. He needs a PR. We need to spin this for him and then this thing is going to the moon, man.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  I've already moved on to my next, uh, unethical thing, which is.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  What?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  I started building a bot army so I can get Pokemon cards. So I've been researching hard.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Yes!

• 8:12Speaker 01

  I've been researching.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  Trash, you were the chosen one!

• 8:14Speaker 01

  It's actually so complicated to do these bots.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  I love that you're building this trash because you're building it for good purposes so that you can actually just get Pokemon yourself without getting into a fistfight at a machine.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  But don't you become the bad guy once you're using a bot army?

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Well, I'm not making like, uh, so like typically these bots, people have like thousands.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  He's backpedaling really fast.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  I can't even make that many because there's like a lot of complicated reasons, but I'm just gonna make a handful just to like up my chances slightly. It's not gonna actually guarantee that I'm gonna win.

• 8:45Speaker 00

  Trash, I have a MacBook mini. I will let you, I will let you use it if you want to use it until you can get at least...

• 8:51Speaker 01

  I will use it.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  Trash, you write stuff that gets deployed on every Netflix computer, right?

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, dude, what?

• 9:01Speaker 00

  Trash, have you heard of Spinnaker?

• 9:03Speaker 02

  What?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  I don't know, I'll think about it.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  There's like Nintendo has to shut off like all of Netflix's IPs because all of a sudden it's just like this massive like Pokemon buying spree.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Just wait till this wall gets super high. That's when you're gonna know my bot's working.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  It's working, yep.

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Alright.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  That's when you know. That's when you know.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Is there any possibility we could intro, we could actually start?

• 9:27Speaker 00

  Welcome to the stand-up. Today we have an extremely special episode for everybody that's watching the stand-up. For those that don't know, this is the world's most attended stand-up. Congratulations everyone for being a part of it. I hope everybody has their blockers, they're ready. Yep, thank you, thank you.

• 9:44Speaker 03

  Unfortunately, interns, still unpaid.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  Still unpaid, still unpaid. The interns are always unpaid, but you guys, the thing is that I love you with the love of a CEO, okay? I just want you to know that right now.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Oh, somebody can we talk about valuable work experience that someday could land you a paying job, right?

• 10:04Speaker 00

  True. Someday, you guys will get paid.

• 10:08Speaker 00

  Just not here.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Not today is not one of those days. So go get some coffee.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, now go get me some coffee. All right, now today, our very special episode, it has to do, Casey, I was absolutely fascinated with some of the tweets you were making because Windows 11, uh, actually, well, to be fair, we gotta back this up a little bit. Uh, about a couple of months ago, Satya released a note of intent saying that Windows cures you. We are going to win back the consumer is exactly what he said. And the first major patch since that announcement just came out. And that exact patch contained a new and improved Windows Run Dialogue. And so this is a part of their major push to make performance more top of mind. At least that is what Windows 11 explicitly said.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  And as part of their announcement, they said, this is the fastest that the Run Dialogue has ever been. Ever, E V E R, like this is the best it has ever been. Here we go. And they announced it and it takes approximately 90 milliseconds to show on screen on the median. So the 50 percentile, so we don't know what, we don't know what like the 25th percentile, we don't know the quartiles here, so we have no idea what's going on. But we do know that the median is 90, approximately 90 milliseconds.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  It was 94, I think might have been what they said.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know how they measure that. That seems really impressive considering most displays don't. You know, they're usually locked to some number that probably doesn't land on 94 every time. I don't exactly know how they're measuring that, but nonetheless, that's what they're saying. Absolutely impressed with this performance, but then Casey, you did a little bit of snooping.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  I did, so I actually didn't, uh, so I just, I really didn't. I didn't care because like I said, I don't use Windows really like anymore. We kinda, we kinda nixed that, uh, pun intended. And, uh, so like, I'm just like, it's a, it's kind of just a like, all right, you guys, you know, you can do your rodeo now of where you decide to try and make Windows performant or whatever. That's fine. Um, but what I was gonna say is,

• 12:16Speaker 02

  Originally, I only saw this because Tim Sweeney was commenting on it. I think he was, said something snide, like, you know, he said it was 94 milliseconds for this, you know, performance top of mind rewrite. It's like, a gaming monitor is like, you know, 8 milliseconds to refresh a frame. Like, what's go, you know, what's going on? And so, the only thing I really did was just retweet. I'm like, okay, popping up the run dialogue, like, is like a drop to 10 FPS, right? Because that's what, you know, it's like 11 FPS, I think, would be, if you rounded 94 milliseconds, it'd be like, it'd be, you know, it'd be like 10.6 frames a second or something, if that was your run rate. And nobody cared about the run dialogue, for the most part.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Pretty much, people just cared about the fact that I used it FPS as a way to, like, explain what the number was. Now, remind you, I'm not posting anything original here, at all. I literally just like, here is the screenshot of the thing that Tim Sweeney posted, or was replying to, rather. And I'm just like, and I highlighted it, and I was like, they were like, perf, top of mind, 94 milliseconds. And I was like, geez, like, that'd be really sl- like, 94 milliseconds is a long time. Especially because, like, when you think about what the run dialogue is, it's not really, like, it's a user interface interaction.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Well, you hold on right there, Casey. There's processes that they have to create. I don't know what a process is, but apparently it takes 90 milliseconds.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this was, this was the thing, where they were like, a lot of people just had a problem with this. And a lot of people is probably the wrong term. Like, most, you know, it was a very popular tweet, actually, so I suppose most people didn't have a problem with what I said. But, for the people who did have a problem with it, there were two things. One is, they were like, well, this is like, you know, loading. It's like, how long something takes to load. Which to me is ridiculous because it's like, no, it's like a text box and maybe some history. There's no, there shouldn't be any loading. Like, this should just be, it's a trivial, it's, you're talking about like 4K or something of data

• 14:26Speaker 02

  that should be required to do this thing. Like, it's so minimal that you, there's no question you shouldn't be launching a process for this, in my mind, right? Maybe if you have some kind of weird process isolation thing going on because you're scared that someone's hacking your run dialogue, but then at that point, we should talk about why that's happening exactly and other things like that. But, you know, there's a whole sort of thing. So you could come back with some blog post where you explained like, here's why it has to be a process. And maybe I'd be like, okay. But in general, no, like, that should not be, if the user doesn't perceive them to be loading something, then that's not really an acceptable excuse. A, so I didn't think anyone who replied with that, I don't think they have any leg to stand on. So I'm sorry, like, I just completely disagree with you. This is not a load operation.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  But that was relatively minor. That was, I felt like that was just as, as you folks saying, as the kids say, that was just cope? That was just like trying to come up with a number for the 94.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  That was some cope. Yep. It's a little bit of cope and also launching nodes so you can use React. That's all. Just a little bit.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  The bigger, the bigger thing was, was they didn't like the use of FPS.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  And this to me is like, I can, if you, if you don't want to use FPS as a way to like, talk about how things feel and how long they take, right? That's totally valid, in my opinion. Meaning, I would never go to somebody who quoted milliseconds and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, son, you should be saying FPS. Like, I wouldn't do that because I'd be-

• 15:56Speaker 03

  In this house, in this house, we measure with FPS, okay?

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. Like, I would never, I would never do that, right?

• 16:02Speaker 00

  Yo, milliseconds!

• 16:03Speaker 02

  If I did that to somebody and they were like, dude, I quote these things in milliseconds, that's how I do it, I'd be like, ah, sorry, like, I was just, I, yeah, I was being a dick. I shouldn't have done that or whatever, right? Like, that, I would feel bad about that if I did that, right? Not so with these people. These people are like, "You cannot quote FPS numbers unless", apparently, because there's some internet committee that must have decided this. FPS has to be average FPS.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  Yes. So Casey, you may not know this, but in a video game, in a video game, if you fire a gun, but you only fire it once, and it takes 90 milliseconds, that's just loading. It only counts if you repetitively fire it.

• 16:46Speaker 03

  And I thought people were mad, though, Casey, because the run thing is kind of like, you know, Anthropic sort of started the trend. Everything's a game engine, Casey. So it's like, they were... So they're saying it's not a fair FPS measure.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  Alls I'm saying is, so what I would say is, if that's the way you want to quote things, that's totally fine, because I like having both. My preference is to see both. So I like to see the milliseconds, and then I like to convert that to FPS in my head, so I can see like, if I was hitting monitor refresh, because the way that I usually like to program anything that's like a user interaction, is I like to hit monitor refresh for like what I expect the target monitor refresh to be. So if someone pushes a button, then like from the time that that button comes in, I want to try, on the frame that it came in, I want to try to have the response to it on this frame that's submitted at that time, right?

• 17:49Speaker 02

  So you push a button on one frame, and the next frame that you see as should have it. Now, sometimes it's two frames, because like there's a compositor in the way. Sometimes it's more if the TV sucks and it's buffering a lot. It's like there's reasons why that can start to multiply out. But the way I like to think of it is like, okay, at least for the code, like, you know, for telemetry, which I assume is where this number is coming from. If you timed from like when the the event happens and when someone actually got a frame, I want to see something close to monitor refresh or twice monitor refresh, depending on what you're counting there, right?

• 18:29Speaker 02

  And so this is actually legitimately the way I think about it. Like, that was not, I think people were saying or were trying to impugn to me the fact that I was trying to make it sound worse than it is by using FPS. And I guess what I would say is that is like, no, or yes and no. I I do think of it that way. And yes, I suppose the reason I use that number is because I actually believe it's bad. Like, when you're not getting monitor refresh, that I think you did something wrong, probably, right? It's like, especially if it's just I'm popping up a text box or some UI thing. I just think you did something wrong. You should, you should be at monitor refresh, just period, right? And if you don't agree with that, that's fine. Like, you can just be like, no, I like my things to be more laggy than that. You can totally make an argument that you just don't care.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  You're like, look, 100 milliseconds is what I think is reasonable for response to UI. So that's what I do. Totally fine, too. But like claiming that FPS is a bad way to do it, I totally disagree. I think FPS is a very good way for someone to have in their head like, oh, am I close to monitor refresh? Like, I know I should be hitting 60. It's just a good like metric to have. And if you want me to convert that so I always say 16.6666666666667 instead. Six seven. I suppose I could say that for you. Did that help? If I changed it from FPS to hertz, what like, I mean, well, cycles per second, presumably they'd say, again, it has to be average for some reason. I don't know why. Those are not intrinsic to the measurement.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Frames per second just means you took a count of frames and you divided by a time, right? And it does not imply that there was any more than even one, actually. Technically, you probably need to have two to measure something between, but like, you know. So anyway, I found all of that ridiculous and very disheartening because it just, I was like, this is ridiculous. All of that, all of this, for something that as far as I can tell, isn't actually relevant anyway. Like, because, for a couple of reasons. But here's the first one. They said in that same post that the original run dialogue experience was 104 milliseconds. And the thing they were replacing with-

• 20:38Speaker 03

  Really?

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, was 94 milliseconds. That's what they said in the post, right?

• 20:43Speaker 00

  No, no, no, not in that post, right? I thought it was 400 milliseconds.

• 20:47Speaker 03

  That can't be real.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  No, it was in the blog post that I saw, I think it was 104, on Microsoft's blog, they were like, "The original one was 104, this one's like 94," or something like that. Or 98, or, I don't know the exact numbers, but they were both very close to 100. Like, one was less than 110, the other was less than 100, right? So, between 90 and 100.

• 21:07Speaker 00

  Well, remember, half of the measurements are above 94, too. Because remember, that's just the median.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Well, sorry, yeah, well, I'm just saying. So, I was curious about that because I was like, I don't know how they're measuring it, right? Because there's different ways you can measure it. If you're talking about like a latency chain, where you press a physical button and then see something, it's pretty easy to get a response time to go up to something like 100 milliseconds. If you have slow mouse, slow USB processing, the operating system's a little slow, your code is a little slow, the GPU is buffering several frames, the monitor's buffering some more frames. I could construct a situation where some code that responded potentially, like, my little piece of code that responds instantly,

• 21:53Speaker 02

  still is taking 100 milliseconds because everyone else in the chain is screwing me, right? This is a thing that people who have ever measured latency with like a camera know. You can easily start to beef that up, right?

• 22:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, or you've ever actually played a game on a TV set to non-gaming mode. And all of a sudden, you can feel it when you're playing Mario. You're like, "Oh, what is happening? I can't jump anymore."

• 22:15Speaker 02

  That's why Prime loses in games.

• 22:16Speaker 00

  That's actually why. I've been on TV mode. I didn't know that I've been on TV mode. I didn't know that. That's why I lost at Fortnite.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  That was why, yeah. We used to watch this channel that...

• 22:25Speaker 03

  Like a lot of TVs.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, when he used to do that doc... When he used to be Dr. Disrespect and do that channel, he had to stop playing competitive games and create this Primogen thing, specifically because of this, you know, TV... He had a TV that was buffering too many frames. He couldn't win anymore. Their Call of Duty career went down the toilet, and here we are on the stand-up. But that's ancient history now. No sense dwelling on the past. The point is, um... So I don't know where they get this number from, right?

• 22:52Speaker 00

  I don't think Casey knows. We'll just keep on going.

• 22:55Speaker 03

  He... Let's just say hit the end of his career as a...

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, no, it was not that. No, I...

• 23:01Speaker 03

  Okay, all right, just...

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. It... It was... Let's say that it, uh...

• 23:08Speaker 03

  Anyways.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  It involved...

• 23:09Speaker 03

  Trash, go, here we go.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  It was not Minecraft. But anyway, um, the point is, uh, when we, uh, look at these kind of numbers, who knows how they're measured, right? Like, nobody knows.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Because they weren't discussed. So we know that they were statistical, meaning they said it was like a median. So, meaning, we know that they were talking across a number of machines, right? A number of configurations. Probably, meaning it's telemetry, meaning it probably comes from end-user machines, but it's hard to say, because, again, I don't... I don't know exactly what their setup is for doing this. But I was curious about that, because I was like, you know, that sounds really high, actually, from my recollection of the run dialog. I was like, I don't think it takes 104 milliseconds, uh, from end of click to showing the run dialog, uh, on, like, Windows 10, for example.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  By the way, this is a very important part, because remember, the post said this is the fastest ever.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Right, which it may well be...

• 24:10Speaker 00

  Which tends to mean forever. It does mean forever.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Which is, right, which is, uh...

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Good point.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Is what I'm trying to get to. So the part that confused me was I was like, where did that number come from? So like, on the... On Windows 10, I tried testing the existing run dialog, which obviously is not the updated one. And I did a 60 Hz capture. Now, I know that 60 Hz will make people very uncomfortable. So what I mean to say is, a capture where the frames were capped to 16.66666666667 milliseconds.

• 24:43Speaker 03

  How many, Casey, is that in deca-frames per hour? That's my preferred... That's the only unit that I prefer discussing, so...

• 24:51Speaker 02

  What is the 60... in 60s per an hour? Yeah, I don't know. So I captured it and captured a bunch of me running the... You know, doing the run dialogue, just to see what it was. And it always responded in 2 frames, which would be, you know, somewhere in the 30-millisecond range, depending on, again, if you were trying to include mouse clicks or something, I don't know. But assuming you were doing telemetry from a machine, then you can't do that, because you don't have a high-speed camera sitting on it. So I'm assuming they're recording something like that. And so I don't... So I don't know now... So if they're using that number 104 as a median, well, I tested this on a machine that's a decade old. It's 9 years old, right?

• 25:36Speaker 02

  So it's a very old machine. What are they testing across such that they're able to get a number that's 3 times higher than that as the median, right? I don't know. And since I don't know, now I have no idea what's going on. So I don't know where the 100-millisecond number goes... comes from. But the reason I say this might just be much ado about nothing is because if that number is similarly inflated and the 94 is similarly inflated, the actual number for response time might be much better. It might be that number divided by 3, which would again be 2 frames, which is fine, right? Much, much better than the, you know, drastically increased 3x latency one that it sounded like it was going to be,

• 26:20Speaker 02

  which everyone, I think, would have been correct to kind of freak out about, because like, they're all used to an experience where it's 1 or 2 frames to pop up that run dialogue, and now it's taking 3 times longer. That would be annoying. So I really don't know what's going on here. I feel like they needed to... If they were going to make a post about performance and they didn't want people to comment on it, they needed to put more information in there that would be clearer about what's going on. And also blaming people for having a reaction to this, especially when they just quote, like, they just put a quote and be like, "I think what I said is, 'Am I reading this right?'" That's what I said. To get really mad at someone who said, "Am I reading this right? This sounds really slow," is ridiculous. Like, that's what makes X so crap.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  The only response to that should be, either, "Yes, you're reading it right, this is kinda slow for popping up a run dialogue, because that shouldn't really be any work," or, "Yes, you were reading it wrong, actually that 100 milliseconds is this really bad way we measure it, where we measure it from the start of the click to when we show it, and since we can't launch till the person releases the mouse button, that's an extra 50 milliseconds that's just padded on there," right? Like, that is the answer to this. Not some snide, like, "You can't use FPS." Like, it was garbage. Like, I really didn't like the responses to that. I felt like they were ridiculous, and so, like, I'm pretty thumbs down on what people said. That is my annoyance with it.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  The happy news, though, is I think what's going to happen is, the run dialogue will probably be fine. I can't say for sure, but I think these numbers are not, like, they're not measuring either what we think they're measuring, or they, somewhere in their test suite, have 10,000 really old buggy laptops that take an extra 70 milliseconds to do this operation, and they're skewing the median or something, right? Like, some explanation like that. So until we get more information, I think this is just a dead issue, except for the fact that people out there who think FPS isn't a good way to intuit response times, I think you're totally wrong.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  Okay, I gotta jump in. Casey, so, there is something about all of this that you're really missing, and I would just like to, I would love to hear Trash's opinion on this one. Which is, Trash, you've worked at Netflix now since the Great Fall. Like Trash joined and Netflix dropped by 60%. Effectively is what happened.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  I feel like it was more.

• 28:45Speaker 00

  It might have been 70%. Anyways.

• 28:47Speaker 03

  They heard that he was coming.

• 28:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, they heard that he was coming, he joins the company, Netflix went from 690 to 170 or something like that. It was a disastrous moment for us.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  Now Trash, do you have like a bunch of like stock from when you worked there that Trash, personally ruined your retirement savings?

• 29:05Speaker 00

  He did everybody a favor, he helped people for a decade. So thank you Trash for that, everybody.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  Okay, John Trash. Everyone, give Trash a clap. This is why he's still at Netflix.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Get those options down so they can go back up.

• 29:20Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly, there you go Casey Stonk, right there. Anyway, so, we've been at, like, you've worked on a product that's sensitive to any sort of code, right? Because the TV platform is just, it's a very hard platform, it's a much slower platform than everything else. Now Trash, have you ever once heard anybody at all, in any point in life, ever talk about response times in frames?

• 29:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, Casey, so this is something that you might not know, but in the web world, nobody has ever once thought of something in terms of frames. I don't, like, this is a whole novel concept of you being like, when something happens, I expect next monitor refresh rate something to happen. Like, no one's ever said that, ever.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  That would, that would explain the disconnect probably, because to me, so I, like, obviously I was raised, I don't know if that's the correct term.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  To catch on fire?

• 30:17Speaker 02

  So I was raised in the era of, during the,

• 30:20Speaker 00

  Thanks, David.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, R-A-Z-E-D.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was good, bro, nice vocabulary, buddy.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  Okay, Casey, continue on saying something smart, please.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  It's not smart, it's historical. What you normally would do, right, is you'd try to have it so that, you know, you update your stuff during the vertical blank of like a CRT, right? Like the scan line comes down, you update your stuff, and you come back around to the top, and you need to have everything done in that time, like for the next, right? So you're always, I mean, the phrase "racing the beam" like made it into the title of a book, I think, right? And that's what that was referring to. You're racing the beam, the like, the actual like CRT like display beam, right? That the thing that excites the phosphorus on the screen of a cathode ray tube, right? And then went from there to like, in sort of like the Carmack era of gaming,

• 31:12Speaker 02

  like when like the Quake engine kind of ushered in 3D and this sort of stuff in a big way. At that point, like, I believe he had a thing, and I don't remember if this was like something that he said in like person that I remember him saying, or whether it was something that he posted in like a plan file. But I remember him being like, "Look, if you structure your update loop in one way, where you like do your rendering, where you issue your rendering, you update the world, do issue rendering, and then process input, you lose a little bit of time because some of the input maybe you could have gotten

• 31:54Speaker 02

  a little bit like just before you were about to submit the render," or something like, like, there was a thing where he was talking about that. And I was always like, "Oh, okay, yeah, I probably should always be very thoughtful of like, how can I make sure I get input as close as possible to submission so that I'm introducing the least, like, the little, smallest amount of latency?" Especially if you have something like vSync on, where you're going to like, if you like processed input and then waited on vSync, then came around and did your render, now there's an even bigger gap between those things, right? And so I've always, I'm always used to think of it as it frames. So input comes in on a frame, you should see it on the next frame, as close as I can make it. I don't want to be the weak link in that chain.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  I want it to be the TV that's screwing you, not me. So I've always thought of it that way. So I always think of it as FPS. And especially nowadays, when like, you know, when I do ping times on like the network here, even on this crappy Comcast connection that I'm on. Most network on modern broadband internet, the actual ping time out from the person to like a local, to something that's close to them, is actually sub-monitor refresh. Like you can actually get a network packet to someone and back in less time than like a 60 Hz refresh. That's how good this stuff has gotten, you know? People on fiber are getting sub-one millisecond ping times to things like the Liris Google node, right? It's incredible.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  And so nowadays, I just think everything should be thought that way. Like it's just, it's just, look, the fastest we can, the reason to do it in frames, that's the fastest we can get something out to the user. Like what's the lowest amount of time this monitor can hit? That's what we should be shooting for. And sometimes it's unrealistic because it's like, okay, they're on like some north of 500 Hz monitor. The operation we're doing is too heavyweight, so we gotta set a more conservative frame target, totally fine. But I, I never think of it in terms of anything other than that because that's our limit. That's what I can give you the frames at.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, to be fair, we do, even in the web world, we do think about FPS, especially for like animated, heavy websites, when you noticeably see like Jank is like stuttering. That's typically when we'll actually take into account like FPS. But honestly, most apps like aren't really doing any animations. It's all just async crud apps just waiting for something, right? So it's a more of how long does it take to load, which we will use time, like milliseconds verse an FPS, because that just wouldn't make sense in that case as far as.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  A little TTFB? Is that what I'm hearing, Trash?

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit of that, a little bit of time the first byte, yeah, a little bit of that.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  I feel like that is sort of a separate thing too, is like. You know, to me, the user should see the response instantaneously, even if the thing takes a little while. So like, suppose I'm on some network and I'm like, "Look, it's AWS, so, you know, good luck getting this response back in less than 30 milliseconds." Because like, even though the data center is like 2 milliseconds of hop away or something, as soon as it hits AWS, it's just grinds to a halt, right? And like, that's been my experience. It was like, the late... The time it takes light to get to the data center has nothing to do with how long it's gonna take. They are just gonna chew through those milliseconds, doing whatever it is that they do, with like their switching and, you know, virtual machine management or whatever it is.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  You know, I don't work there, I have no idea. So, assuming that you're gonna do that, you're like, "Look, we're not gonna hit 60 Hz or 120 Hz, because we know this thing's gonna take like 40 milliseconds to get back from AWS." I still wanna show the thing immediately. So like, for the case of a run dialog, let's say for whatever reason, I can't predict it. I don't know the user's gonna do it. I have to fetch their run history from AWS for some reason, because like, it's... "Oh, it's a shared, it's like a synced run history across machines." I didn't know they were on this machine, or so... I mean, I don't know how that... Doesn't make any sense. I should've sunk this ahead of time, but whatever.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  I would fire off that request, but display the run dialog on the next frame, right? Because I know that by the time they're actually able to hit the first key that I'll need to search that run dialog for, I probably will get at least some of that information back. And so I'm covering a little bit of that latency, and giving the user the instant response that I want to give them, right? And then if, you know, the response doesn't come back, and they do hit a key, and I'm sitting there and I'm like, "AWS not loading", then I have to put up a little spinner or something, right? Just tell them like, "Look, AWS is dicking me here." So, I get it, like, you know, "Run history not available till AWS responds", the little thing. But you know, that's just how I think about it. So like, I'm not being disingenuous. That is literally how I think about it.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  And it pisses me off in games, too. Like, if I'm sitting there waiting for a loading screen, that you... I'm like, "Guys, you obviously could've streamed this in." Like, why wasn't this already loaded? Like, what's going on? I get mad at that all the time. I'm just like, the goal should be zero wait states for the user, pretty much ever.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  So we've had a lot of arguments about this over the years and

• 36:56Speaker 02

  Who? You and?

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Uh, my previous team, shall we say. And so one of the, one of the big things was, what's worse, the initial loading or in-app loading? Like which one actually makes a user more nuts? Uh, which one's going to cause them to be more upset? Would you rather have a bunch of small distributed little loads? Throughout the app, or would you rather have a bigger initial load?

• 37:20Speaker 02

  So in my mind, usually, so I would say that if I find myself in that literal position, then my answer would be, how often do they load this thing?

• 37:35Speaker 02

  But before finding myself in that position, I would have asked the question, are you sure? Are you sure that you couldn't find a way to make this work? Because a lot of times, if people are like, oh, we have no choice but this long initial load. I'm like, are you sure? Like, are you sure that you actually did everything you could? To make that initial package you needed to get started as small as possible, right?

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Well, I'm on team bigger load initially. That's

• 38:05Speaker 02

  If, if the app is

• 38:06Speaker 01

  But obviously within a threshold.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  If the app is loaded infrequently, then if you have to make that trade-off, I would say you'd do that. If the app is loaded all the time, because you like typically load this thing, do a little tiny thing and then close it, then you're kind of in this nasty situation where it's like, okay, well, I don't know. It's, it's sort of just as bad, right? Like because, you know, so I, I would say, I wouldn't think about those things as different. I would just say there's frequency of operation and cost of operation. And you're trying to minimize the total of those, right? The cost times the, you know, the, the cost times the frequency. And so if the frequency of launching this app is very high, and the frequency of things you do in the app is very low, then maybe it would make sense to actually try to minimize your app load time. But in general, I would say like,

• 38:54Speaker 02

  99% of the time when someone's like, "Oh, I needed to do X, so that's why there's a long load time here." I'm like, "No, you didn't." Like, I can think of tons of ways that I could have not done it that way, right? Like, strip this out, don't do it that way, have a low-quality version of that thing you stream in first, right? Like, think megatexture, right? Or, uh, level of detail would be a better way to think of it, right? I know that I have something I can display for this thing. It may just not be the best-looking version of that thing. So if I'm caught by surprise, I do that right away and then increase its resolution when I can, right? Things like this. Uh, you can typically do things to try and make sure that you're very responsive.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  And, you know, if you then decide like, "Okay, no, we can't do that because this thing has to be super ceilingly." Sure, you can always paint yourself into a corridor where you absolutely have to this thing, and then I agree you do. But I would make sure all those avenues are exhausted first, is I guess what I would say.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, we do have like some techniques that we call, or that we coined call like progressive enhancement, which is-

• 39:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  ... display the shittiest thing. But if you have a good machine, then we'll slowly enhance your experience, right? Which I think is fair. But, um, just to- I don't- Go ahead, go ahead.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  No, I said just to try and get that nice responsive feel, because, you know, um... And that's, again, that's just because that's the way I like things. I like things to be very responsive. Maybe some people just don't care. They like, they push the right button on something, you know? If you open up an X-Files, you push the rights button, it takes a while, it kind of lag in, it goes, "Uh." I'm like, "That sucks, like, someone should fix this," right? If, someone else might be like, "I don't know, it was fine." Right? And so, and so it really depends on who you're talking to, probably what their preference is on those two things, right? I don't know. Um, does that make sense? Like, you know, some people might be fine with that, some people might not be.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's hard to... Everyone has a different threshold-

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Threshold, yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  ... on what they really tolerate, right?

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it's hard, like, who do you optimize for? Like, there's nothing I hate worse. I would hate to have a quick experience, like load, or like a quick loading experience, but then every time I click something, it's like, "Ah."

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Now, now we got a, now that thing is-

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  I think that's like significantly worse, in my opinion.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Because the clicking is more frequent, right? It's, that's what I'm saying, like, it's frequency versus cost. If you're gonna click 100 times in this thing, but only load it once, you don't want the 100 things to each take the long time and the one thing to be fast, right? That's not helping anybody, right?

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  That's what all my banking software looks like. I got like, open like my banking dashboard and it's just like 20 spinners and then I click something else and it's like 40 more spinners. I'm like, who's making these banking apps?

• 41:23Speaker 00

  It's also so complicated.

• 41:25Speaker 03

  Trash has just got so many zeros in his, you know, it's just such a full bank account. They're spinning forever to figure out what's in his account.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  Progressive money banking.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  Oh, zeros getting added to Trash's bank account. It's like 0, 0, 0, 0. Oh my goodness, we have to widen this div. It's crazy.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  If I had that many zeros, I would not be on this podcast and I would say, I'd be traveling around the world.

• 41:45Speaker 03

  That doesn't even make sense, Trash. You're not working right now.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, the wall of Pokemon would be bigger. The wall of Pokemon would be much bigger.

• 41:54Speaker 03

  That's what I'm saying. Aren't you having fun hanging out with us? Wouldn't you still be on the pod?

• 41:59Speaker 00

  Trash, you're not paid to be on this podcast. What do you mean? I thought you did it for the love of the game, baby.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Whatever, whatever. I said what I said. I don't care.

• 42:11Speaker 03

  Uh, red button, blue button. I don't know.

• 42:14Speaker 00

  I don't even care.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  Oh no.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  I would say-

• 42:19Speaker 02

  That was still the best answer. I'm answering, from now on when people ask that red, blue question, I'm giving Trash his answer. It's the best answer I've ever heard and I loved it. It was so good.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  I don't like red.

• 42:30Speaker 03

  I was thinking about-

• 42:31Speaker 02

  That was exactly how much thought the question deserved. It was perfect. I like, that was a teachable moment for me and I have learned from Trash and I am a better person now. That's my opinion. Anyway.

• 42:40Speaker 03

  I really wanted to for the full episode. Just like, I thought about just having the edit be, it does Trash's answer and then we play everything else on 16x and then it just ends with KCU saying, "I hated this discussion." At the end of the episode, it's too fast.

• 42:59Speaker 03

  I thought people would enjoy the overall conversation, but I did think about like publishing the full episode just with Trash answering and then-

• 43:06Speaker 02

  It was a perfect answer. It was frickin' perfect, dude. I loved it.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  Microsoft has a bit of a hill to climb because I am just gonna throw this out there. I also get like an update just recently that restarts my computer like six times before the update actually happens. And I just read an article from somewhere where it's just like, it's actually totally normal that Windows needs to restart your computer 15 times for an update. Like, this is actually by design. And so I think part of the problem that I personally have is that they're like, "Look at the run dialog performance." And it's just like, well, that's something I virtually never use.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  Because I just don't, I mean, I don't do development on there, so I'm not opening something that needs that typically. I'm opening a couple of things that I've pinned. I use Windows in a very rookie way. And so it's just like, none of these improvements really help me. I still run into bugs all the time. Like, right now, for whatever reason, we're back into the state where when I create a folder, it goes to the bottom of the list and not the top of the list. Like, all the folders are on the top. I create a new one, it goes to the bottom, and so I have to leave and come back if I want it up at the top again. And it's just like, it's driving me bonkers again that there's so many little things are broken and I just wanna like lose my marbles. And then they're like, "Bro, but run dialog, dog. It's so fast."

• 44:24Speaker 02

  But they didn't say that. What they said is, "We're putting in a new run dialog" "that was made with performance top of mind." And great news, it's basically the exact same speed as the old one, right? That's what they said. Like, nobody said that it actually substantially improved the run, the performance. So presumably what they were trying to say was, "We added some features." Right? I'm guessing. I assume. I mean, I don't know, because I don't care. This is the other thing that I hate about the fact that this tweet got, I guess, so many likes that people started replying to it with this crap about FPS. But anyway.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  I'm assuming that the idea is they added a bunch of features and didn't make it slower, which is good, right? I mean, like, I'm happy that they- First time in a while. Didn't do that, but at the same time, it's like, I wouldn't mention that, right? I wouldn't have cited some numbers and been like, "Hey, like, we're so proud of ourselves that we didn't slow down a run dialogue." Like, I'm like, "Yeah, like, like, what, that's like, that's like, par for the course." I mean, what are you talking about? Like, of course you shouldn't have slowed down the time it takes to open the run dialogue. That's a blog post now? Like, what's going on, right? So, that alone, too, is just very frustrating, because you're like, now you're getting mad

• 45:46Speaker 02

  at, now you're getting mad at me for replying to somebody who replied to your thing where all you did was say that the run dialogue takes 94 milliseconds, which is a hell of a lot of time for something to take. And like, how did we get here? You know, it's ridiculous. This shouldn't have even been news. It shouldn't even have been posted.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  Well, to be fair, the person that got, the person that most got mad at you was actually a writer for something. It wasn't, it was like-

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Wired Mag.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  They could have got Odin, they could have got Odin a Wikipedia page, but instead, Casey, you're now getting a Wikipedia page being Mr. FPS, you know, falsifier.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  Um, except it's not false. It is the, it is the FPS. But yes, uh, like, the question I have, um, there would also be like, could we, you proposed this trade, uh, I believe, to Jimmy Wales on the previous episode, let's propose it now. I can go back and delete my original tweet and post a new tweet where I put the millisecond number in place of where the FPS number. Now, mind you, my tweet had both, because I quoted the millisecond number. So it wa, it wasn't that I didn't- Include it right there. -include that information, right? It was that they didn't like the even, the fact that you could bring FPS into it was just this unholy, you know, absolutely, uh, ridiculous thing to do.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  But anyway, I'll go back and delete that tweet and only mention milliseconds. I won't mention FPS anywhere in it, in exchange for them writing a nice article about Odin, um, and how it's used at Jenga effects. There we go.

• 47:22Speaker 00

  That'd be pretty good.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  That's a good deal.

• 47:24Speaker 00

  That's a good deal.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  Right? We all, everyone wins.

• 47:28Speaker 03

  Everyone.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Um, by the way, Casey had-

• 47:30Speaker 03

  Except Microsoft.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  I don't know if you know this, but a kind of a little update. Uh, this person named Phil, which you can't really quite see well on my, or the stream can't quite see it very well. But Phil over here wrote his own version, in which takes approximately 20 milliseconds to show up on screen. And so he's able to show a dialog super ultra quick. In his own handwritten one.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the problem with that is that like, um, I'm just, I'm just gonna put myself in the mind space of the people who were replying to my tweet.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  The problem with that-

• 48:03Speaker 00

  Take a moment, take a moment Casey, take a, take a moment.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  The problem with that is, is in, that demonstration doesn't mean anything. Because that person didn't run it on all the same machines and take the median.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  Hmm, yeah, true, true.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  So this is a meaningless, it doesn't, it doesn't matter, it doesn't mean, it doesn't matter.

• 48:21Speaker 03

  It's meaningless because he has a different monitor.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Also, he's not loading, he's not loading the run history from Microsoft OneDrive, or whatever the heck it is that this thing does, right? So he's not doing, the, the things I always get, they're all ridiculous, but they're that, they're like, um, you know, it's not an apples to apples comparison. Uh, you don't have all the features, it's the features. Uh, it's, um, it's the plugins. You just don't, you don't have plugins, plugins, everyone knows that as soon as there's a concept of a plugin. Everything is, takes, uh, several seconds to happen. Um, blah, blah, blah.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  Casey, you know, I think you're-

• 48:57Speaker 02

  That's what he will, people reply with, with that crap to that person, even though he did it, right?

• 49:01Speaker 00

  So Casey, you're actually missing kind of like a really fun part of web dev, uh, which goes a little something like this, which is, alright, we're gonna rewrite something, and we're gonna rewrite it, and here's our kind of first implementation of it. And it is 10 times faster, bro.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Then what?

• 49:20Speaker 00

  It's so good, the previous version, like this new version, it's so fast, and they release it, and everyone's like high fiving. And then, about three months later, after you've fully rewritten it, it's effectively baseline or worse, like typically it actually goes worse. Like this happened with a very major project that I saw that actually got significantly worse memory usage. And so it's just like, but in the beginning, it was so good. So when I see like a run dialog rewrite that came in below budget? I mean, you don't realize what this does to me, like, I can't, I didn't even think it was possible. So I'm actually very impressed.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  I mean, like I said, I, I don't know. I'm just saying what people will say. I, I don't know. I, I-

• 50:02Speaker 03

  I thought for- Oh, good.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  No, Teague, please.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, initially when I saw the tweet, I thought for sure I misread it because I thought they were saying the start menu thing, the thing that people actually open. You know what I'm saying? The one that like- Sometimes you press the start thing and then it like, it just doesn't show up for five seconds and then it shows up. And I was like-

• 50:23Speaker 01

  On the screen?

• 50:24Speaker 03

  I was like, good for, yes, yeah, it shows me ads for Edge and for Bing and like- I was like, wow, good for them. A feature that a regular, everyday person uses. They rewrote from scratch and took from my experience median of five to 10 seconds to load, it feels like, and they brought it down to 90 milliseconds. I'm like, great, good for them.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  It's the opposite of that, right? Every single version of Windows, it gets slower.

• 50:51Speaker 03

  The start menu is still bad and the run menu that my parents don't know exists is faster.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  My mom has never seen the run menu. She does not know what that even means. Like, if I were to tell her, oh, just use the run menu, she'd be like, what is a run menu?

• 51:04Speaker 02

  I, I'm kind of confused about the run menu, to be completely honest, because, um, again, this is kind of like, for historical reasons. Originally, the start menu did not really have the concept of like, type to execute, so, like, if you look back at like a Windows 95 or Windows 2000 XP era start menu, then what happened, if I, if I'm remembering correctly, is typing would be, would be interpreted as like, trying to hotkey through that menu.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  I think you're right.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  So like, if you popped up the start menu using like, uh, the super key or whatever, or the Windows key or whatever it would be called, I guess.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  The copilot key now, Casey.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  Copilot, what, no, yeah, right.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  It is, yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 02

  You push that, the start button opens and you type a key, I think it just hotkeys through that menu. It doesn't start, uh, it didn't originally, I'd, at least my recollection is, it didn't originally start- Accepting those as keystrokes to be interpreted as a command of some kind. If you now do it, like if I hit that button, uh, it, it does. So like if I hit the start menu button and I start typing, it does sort of like a Linuxy style thing where you start typing into a kind of ambiguous box that's just like, I don't know, I'm gonna do something with this.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, dmenu, effectively.

• 52:22Speaker 02

  Effectively. My question is, why is there even a run menu to begin with now? Isn't that thing, like what, why are there two different things? And I'm guessing, and I could be wrong, I'm guessing the answer is because the run menu is actually gonna run the thing, whereas the, the box is like, we have to keep that as like an idiot box. Like it has to be a thing where you just type, if you type in C colon, uh, backslash, uh, you know, windows backslash notepad.exe into that or something, we have to show you ads for our new Copilot improved, uh, notepad that you, or what, right?

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Like it has to, it has to do all these other business oriented operations, so that can't be the run dialog, we have to have this other run dialog. Is that the explanation? Cause I don't really know, like, I don't know why there are two.

• 53:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, Casey, unfortunately, you're 100% right. It will literally show you internet search results in the start menu in Windows.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  I'm trying it right now, I'm booting up my Windows machine.

• 53:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:27Speaker 00

  Thank you, Trash, thank you for getting on the case. You can do internet search results, it's a thing.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Uh, Casey, why don't you let me comment on that?

• 53:34Speaker 03

  Wait, can I say one more thing about that though? Which is that Casey, unfortunately, you'll be really pleased or sad to hear, I don't know, depending on, you know, are we preying on Microsoft's downfall? I'm not sure. But oftentimes, it shows the internet search result higher than the local program. In my experience on that, where you start typing something, I start typing slay this buyer 2, and it doesn't pick the game, it's gonna pick a web search to bring me to slay this buyer 2.com or something like that instead, and it opens it up and...

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, it does a bunch of stuff.

• 54:05Speaker 03

  Ed.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, Trash, hold it up so we can see. Flip, flip your, you know, point, point yourself away from the camera.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  No, you might reveal his one password.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  This is a work machine, hold on.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  It might reveal his one password, don't do that. Don't do, don't listen to him, Trash.

• 54:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, true.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Don't give away his one password.

• 54:19Speaker 00

  That's fishy right there, Trash.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Oddly enough, I do have my password on the screen right now.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  No, no you don't, don't say, no, are you kidding me right now?

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Oh no. Was that a joke?

• 54:32Speaker 03

  I don't think he's kidding.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Oh no.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  Guys, you can't admit that. You cannot admit that out loud. You just, you just...

• 54:39Speaker 02

  Bro.

• 54:40Speaker 03

  It's secure. It's secure.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  It's not secure.

• 54:43Speaker 00

  Trash.

• 54:44Speaker 03

  I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  Alright, Casey, can I make, can I make you even more frustrated?

• 54:55Speaker 02

  I mean, I, I, again, like, I don't care. Windows, do whatever you want. I switched. I don't care. The frustration was the tweets.

• 55:03Speaker 03

  Okay, so that's very immature of you.

• 55:05Speaker 00

  That is very immature of you. So, one thing that's kind of interesting about, uh, uh, what's called the start menu is that you can, you can kind of treat it like a fuzzy finder a little bit. So I can type in like S notes and hopefully I get what I'm wanting. It doesn't quite work that well. It, it pulls up results. I can't quite figure it out. But the Run one is definitely not fuzzy findable.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  So the Run one, you have to type in like the correct thing. You have to say the program you're gonna run.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Which I assume is the intent, right? Like, it's trying, it's trying to be more of a command line-like experience. Which is why I, this is why I assumed that there are two, which is kind of weird, but like, you know.

• 55:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, and so that's, that's the, that's the interesting one is that you get a more fuzzy find plus internet results one for one and a no fuzzy find one for the other one. And so, but the updates to the one that nobody know, really, generally, most people don't use, I assume.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:59Speaker 00

  That's an assumption though.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  I'm assuming it's more for people who just like, they, they, back in the day, they opened the start menu and selected Run, which is how you originally got to this. Or you learned the hotkey of Win-R or something. And now that's just part of your workflow, so we tried to keep it. Which I appreciate them doing. Like, they could have just removed it. Like you said, very few people probably use it in relative to their gigantic user base. But very few people in this case is still probably in the hundred thousands, right? Because Windows is so huge.

• 56:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think I most often see it in, um, let's see, Kit Boga videos where the guys are trying to scam him and they make him run a command.

• 56:40Speaker 03

  That's the time I most often see the Run menu is they say, "Open up Run menu, type," and then they say something insane to type in there.

• 56:50Speaker 00

  By the way TJ, just so you know, you can always disable search results if you wanted to.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  Oh, I can't. I don't have any Windows computers left now.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 57:01Speaker 00

  Just in case you wanted to. If, you know, it's one of the fantastic features of the start menu, you can disable ads. It's like a, it's an available option.

• 57:09Speaker 03

  We talked about this recently. I literally tried to boot up an old Windows computer that I had. So I could have it as a Minecraft machine for my wife, so that when we play Minecraft together, she just has one computer that we turn on. And then it opens to Minecraft, basically. It got stuck in an update loop. Where I couldn't download Minecraft because it was waiting for Windows updates. But Windows updates couldn't run because it was trying to run Windows Store problems. And so they fought each other and I couldn't get an update or Minecraft installed on the machine. So I deleted everything and installed Linux and put Minecraft on there faster than I could get the Windows update.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  Minecraft, a, a Microsoft product.

• 57:50Speaker 03

  A Microsoft product. I had to run the Android emulated version of Bedrock Minecraft on my Linux machine. Which I installed from scratch faster than I could figure out how to get the Windows thing to work. Because I had to do the, because it was Bedrock one, that's the one that we're running for my kid. So anyways, it's crazy.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  I think Microsoft should just start shipping Linux. I think it's over. I think they should just.

• 58:14Speaker 03

  They could ruin that too.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  They should put a Windows logo on Linux and call it Microsoft Linux. Or something like that. Microsoft Winix.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Uh, just Windows 12. That's all you have to do.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  That's just, it's Windows 12. Windows 12 is just Linux and they just, and they just like, like. Send all their source code to the Wine developers. Because as far as I'm concerned, it's over. Like it's just, it's over, guys. Like it's over.

• 58:40Speaker 03

  Instead of Windows subsystem for Linux, it could be, what would be the opposite of subsystem? Something that consumes the others. Windows super system.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  There we go for Linux. Yeah.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  It's still WSL, but it's also Copilot. It's called Copilot WSL.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  Because people have been trying, I mean, people have been trying for decades to get things fixed at this point now. And it's just, it's too late. Like, it's just like, everyone was forced to go do other stuff now. That's why this is happening. No one wanted to do this. Like Valve didn't want to make SteamOS. Like, I didn't want to change our machines here to Linux. I was fine with Windows. They just, they forced us to do it by just never caring about what any of us think. And so now we're gone. I'm not coming back. It doesn't matter.

• 59:28Speaker 03

  Oh, great question.

• 59:29Speaker 00

  Can they win you back? What would Microsoft have to do to win you back?

• 59:33Speaker 02

  They can't. Because I was, that's what happens. So when you have a customer who's been a customer for, you know, I don't know, 30 years or something, or 25 years, I don't know, I'd have to go count how long it was. Since, since like the early 90s, probably, I would say. When I was like in high school, I think I started using Windows. But doesn't matter. Like Windows 3.1 and stuff. So the point is, when you have a customer who's been with you that long and had all of their stuff like built on your system and was used to it, and you know, that was how they do their work.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  The amount of work you're asking them to do to leave is pretty substantial. In order to get to that point, right? It's not a like, it's not a trial separation. It's not a like, we're just gonna take some time to find each other and then we'll come back and see if this marriage still works. It's none of that. This is a like, I find you, found you screwing the babysitter and we're getting divorced forever and I will never speak to you again and I'm taking the kids. Like, that's, that's how the Windows thing went with me and I suspect that's how it went with a lot of people. They were so bad for so long and so egregiously anti-user that the people who left because of that are never coming back. Like, I'm never coming back, ever.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  There's nothing you could do to win me back. I will die a user of some alternative operating system. The question that they would need to ask is, how do they stop that from happening to more people? That's the only question left for them.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  Casey, I hear all those words you said, the babysitter, all that, okay? But what if? Just hear me out here. You know, you know how Hollywood stopped having good and new ideas?

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  What if? Windows 7 remastered?

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  Windows 7, Part 2.

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  Windows 7, Performance Edition.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  Just throwing it out there, whatever we went backwards.

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  Well, but the problem, here's the thing, is that's assuming that, you know, that's, to continue my analogy, that's just like saying, "I've changed." What do you mean? Like, how do I know? How do I know you're not gonna go, "If I take..." Because now I have to do work to switch back to your platform. What guarantees do I have that you won't just start sucking again immediately, right? And none. You've demonstrated what kind of company you are. You've demonstrated how you treat your users. You've demonstrated institutionally what you think of us. Which is, you don't think of us. You don't care. When we repeatedly say, "You need to fix this Windows update situation." When we repeatedly say that all of these things are broken.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  The Explorer, if you accidentally drag an icon over a network share, it pauses for several seconds unrecoverably. How long has that been in there?

• 1:02:33Speaker 00

  Wait, what is that? I don't know this one.

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  You don't fix anything. I don't care anymore. I don't want to rely on you anymore, right? It's gotten to the point where some random people on the internet, who put together a Linux distribution and put up an ISO, are more reliable to me than you. That is where you have gotten, right? In terms of what I think of your ability to provide software to me that I can rely on. It's over. It's done. There's no way, there's nothing you could do. I will, you know, I would go start working on Linux to fix it before I would go back to Windows.

• 1:03:10Speaker 00

  Wow. So not even XP remastered? That's brutal.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  No. No, it's a loss of confidence, complete loss of confidence in the institution, right?

• 1:03:21Speaker 03

  Okay, but what about Windows Dose?

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, shut up.

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  What about, what about if we had Ms. Daws, what about Mr. Daws?

• 1:03:36Speaker 03

  Windows Daws.

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  I did not even get the dose quo- I didn't even get the joke, the, the dose, I didn't even get it.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, that's just a joke, it's absurd.

• 1:03:48Speaker 00

  Mr. Daws, though, that's pretty funny.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  Uh, here's what I will say, I don't remember if there was a Windows 2. I remember there was a Windows 1, and I remember there's a Windows 3, I don't remember if there was a Windows 2, was there?

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  I never, I never was. I started Windows in 3.1 era. I never got to, I never was on a Windows 1.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  I, I remember, 1 was amazing, you should go back and take a look, it's like, it was a tiling window manager, Prime.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  What?

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  Believe it or not.

• 1:04:14Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh, so Windows could actually handle Windows well?

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  Tiling, people are all like, tiling window manager, oh my god, it's the hotness, like, baby, I had that with Windows 1. You opened up a new window, all your other Windows shrank. That's what happened, all your other Windows shrank, look it up, kids.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh, that actually hurts me a little bit.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  Bill Gates brought you the tiling window manager, all these noobs, all these noobs thinking Linux did that, didn't do that.

• 1:04:40Speaker 03

  I knew it was a conspiracy theory. I knew when tiling window managers were a conspiracy by the Gates Foundation.

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  Look it up. DHH, you think you're doing some fancy type of land, you're just Windows 1, baby, you're just Windows 1. Nothing new under the sun, Windows 1, open up calculator, like, it only had like, 3 things.

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  Calculator? Open up calculator again?

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Open up clock, it was like, clock and calcu- like, I was, it was crap.

• 1:05:06Speaker 00

  Word perfect.

• 1:05:07Speaker 02

  Notepad, that's all you got.

• 1:05:09Speaker 00

  No, it was word perfect back in the day.

• 1:05:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was probably a couple apps that were actually important that people were using, I don't know what they were, but, I, I just played around with it, I never used it for anything real.

• 1:05:20Speaker 00

  True.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  I was a little kid, I was a little baby. The heck did I know?

• 1:05:23Speaker 00

  I feel like Trash just hasn't had a lot to say, so Trash, why don't you, why don't you give us the last word?

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Oh, I was gonna say, I used to play Cuber and Family Feud on my Windows machine via floppy disk.

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  What is Family Feud the video game?

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  If you, uh, I was on floppy and I used to just play Fam- Feud, Family Feud for like ten hours a day. I don't know, on my Windows machine, it was like the best time of my life.

• 1:05:46Speaker 03

  Trash, how did you never bring that up after we hosted two Family Feuds? Like, we would have featured you more highly in the show if we knew you were such a superfan.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I just had nothing else to do with my time, you know?

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  Do you, in this, I don't remember the Family Feud game, I don't think I've ever seen it. Is it like, they give you the cate- the thing, like, name something you pack for a vacation?

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was very that, and then you type it in, you type it in, and then

• 1:06:10Speaker 03

  You had to get it exactly right or what?

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  And you just try not to get, so it's either the scoreboard or like the X's, and that was it. And I would just play that non-stop.

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  Do you have a virtual family on the thing, or is it just the screen?

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  I don't think it actually had people, it was just, it was just like the things flipping? They didn't even flip, I mean, it was just showing the X's.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  Right, right, I mean, it's the old days, the stuff was harder, right?

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  And then Cuber, Cuber was my other big one.

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  We ain't coding it flipping.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  And Dig Dug, Dig Dug was another big one I played too.

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  Dude, my son just discovered Dig Dug, we were at an Airbnb with some friends and they had a little arcade thing down there. So then we started, we started, uh, you know, he's five, so we're, but we started vibe coding, uh, a Dig Dug alternative for him to be able to play. Uh, and like, cause he, he really liked that in one of them, you could make, uh, like, jackhammer the ground. There was like a 2.5D version as well, Dig Dug undercover or something, I don't know, crazy.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:07:01Speaker 03

  I don't know, they had other Dig Dug versions that I was unaware of, but I remembered the original. And so we, we just started building one with him, it was pretty sick.

• 1:07:10Speaker 00

  I don't know Dig Dug.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Dig Dug?

• 1:07:13Speaker 00

  No, I mean, I know Rampage. I know all the time.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  He's just basically digging around the screen and then you just encounter monsters and you shoot them.

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  Rampage is like a decade after Dig Dug. Dig Dug is way older.

• 1:07:22Speaker 00

  Okay, so maybe, maybe, okay, hold on, maybe I do know Dig Dug by accident. I do have a nice little Atari machine, uh, like gigantic arcade machine that's an Atari machine with a few different games on it. And one of them is a thing where you dig through the ground and these enemies try to get you and you like shoot what appears to be a pump at them.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  Yes, that's Dig Dug.

• 1:07:41Speaker 00

  And then you pump them three times and they pop.

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  That's Dig Dug, yeah.

• 1:07:43Speaker 00

  Oh, that's Dig Dug? Okay, that's Dig Dug. Okay.

• 1:07:45Speaker 02

  You inflate them and they burst.

• 1:07:47Speaker 00

  Yes, they burst. Yes, okay. Very, it's a very graphic game. You explode people.

• 1:07:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is kinda wild.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  I think Doom was like the first game I played. I have like gore in it. I was like, what's happening here? That was insane.

• 1:08:02Speaker 00

  It was a good game.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:04Speaker 00

  Alright, well, great. Final note, Trash. I appreciate that.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 1:08:09Speaker 00

  You know, I actually feel bad for making you.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Trash brings the show together. Like, I don't know, man, you got, we gotta keep him on the show.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  I have like a very urgent, I have a very urgent Slack message. I was like reading it like nearly, and I was like, I gotta like address this Slack.

• 1:08:20Speaker 03

  I guess, go Casey, what that means though too is we have to make sure Trash never gets rich, cause apparently as soon as he gets rich, he's leaving us behind.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  You gotta call Netflix, be like, do not promote this man. He's questionable.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Soon as I get rich, I'm in the sky full time.

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 1:08:39Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh. So by the way, if anyone's, if, if we ever do a stand-up without the Trash, you know why.

• 1:08:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:48Speaker 03

  What's the, what's the meme where it's like, uh, if I become rich, like there will be signs, how, what's the phrase? I won't, it won't be obvious, but there will be signs. You guys know the thing I'm talking about?

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do know that meme, yeah.

• 1:08:59Speaker 03

  It's Trash, not, it's our podcast with three people on it in an empty seat.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  The one, the one episode before that happens, the room he's in right now will just be, it'll just be, all Pokemons are all, like, he's kind of like being crushed slowly by the sheer force of the Pokemon boxes. Yeah.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  That is the dream. Hopefully we get there.

• 1:09:21Speaker 00

  Alright, well, thank you very much for joining us for the stand-up. We didn't, there was an alternative topic we might have talked about today, which was GitHub's uh, big performance push as well.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was ready to talk about that. I was like, I guess we're not getting to that.

• 1:09:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, this went on a little bit too long, so that's something we'll probably have to do another time, maybe. Anyways, thank you for joining us. The name is Casey Miratory Trash Tej Ajan.

• 1:09:46Speaker 04

  It's a crazy name.