Roy Choi Can Summon Flavor From His Fingertips

Roy Choi is a legend in LA. He was one of the first chefs to start cooking out of a food truck, and one of the first to mashup different cuisines in the way that’s become so popular. His Kogi korean beef taco truck was a sensation in LA when he debuted it in 2008 -- it later inspired the movie “Chef,” starring Jon Favreau.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  You put a lot of love into the things you send during the holidays. It's baked with love, carefully packed with love, or shipped with love right from home. Because what you're sending isn't just what's inside the box. It's the time, thought, and care you put into it. And this holiday season, the United States Postal Service is delivering your love to more addresses in America than anyone else. So send it with love. Send it with USPS. The United States Postal Service. Learn more at USPS.com/holiday. I grew up on Lando Lake's cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lake's American cheese. And now, Lando Lake's cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lake's cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table.

• 0:44Dan Pashman?

  From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad thai, Lando Lake's has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 0:59Dan Pashman?

  Please note, this episode contains references to self-harm and includes explicit language.

• 1:05Dan Pashman?

  You know, reading your memoir, I was so interested to learn a little bit more about the early days of Koreatown in LA and your parents' experience.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  There was no Koreatown. It was just maybe a thousand Koreans, but there was Koreans in the town, but there was no Koreatown.

• 1:22Dan Pashman?

  Right, but it wasn't called Koreatown yet. Right, right. This is Roy Choi, chef and TV personality. His parents moved to LA with the first wave of Korean immigrants in the 1960s. Today, LA's Koreatown has the largest population of Koreans outside of Seoul. But when Roy was a kid, it was very different.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  There were no ingredients, you know, because they were the first wave to come in. There was no kimchi. There was no napa cabbage. You know, there was no gokchigaru and all these things. So you would have to kind of make things on the fly, like sauerkraut, Claussen sauerkraut with Tabasco sauce. That was the first kimchi of Koreatown.

• 1:55Dan Pashman?

  Oh, wow. That's like quick and dirty Korean imitation kimchi.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  That's the first kimchi in Koreatown. You heard it here on the spork poll. Yeah.

• 2:09Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And before we get into this week's show, I want to ask for your help. We are looking for stories from food obsessives. And if you listen to this show, I have a feeling that might be you. Have you ever cooked something over and over again in an attempt to perfect it? Or like, have you ever set out on a mission to rank every taco in your town? Or try every version of a certain food available? We're looking for stories of people who have gone to extreme lengths in pursuit of deliciousness. That sounds like you. Send us an email or voice memo to [email protected]. I want to know your first name, location, and your story. I can't wait to hear from you. All right, let's get into it.

• 2:53Dan Pashman?

  Roy Choi is a legend in L.A. He was one of the first chefs to launch a food truck and one of the first to mash up different cuisines in the way that's become so popular. His Kogi Korean Beef Tacos were a sensation in L.A. when he debuted them in 2008. In fact, Roy's Korean Taco Food Truck was such a hit that it inspired the movie Chef, starring Jon Favreau, and then a Netflix series that Roy hosted with Favreau and celebrity guests. Roy wrote a bestselling cookbook and memoir, L.A.'s Son, in 2013. And now he has a new cookbook, The Choi of Cooking. Meanwhile, Kogi trucks are all over L.A. His food is served also at a small bar on the West Side, and he's expanded to a restaurant and food truck in Vegas.

• 3:33Dan Pashman?

  When you hear Roy's story today, you know that it ends with all this success. In fact, as you'll hear, in some ways, it seems like his life was preordained. But for many years, it wasn't clear he was going to survive, let alone thrive. A lot of his path has been uphill, full of twists and turns and setbacks. It started near the corner of Vermont and Wilshire in 1970s L.A. with a Korean community meeting. I was interested to read about, I'm probably, I'm sorry, I'm not going to pronounce the word correctly, but this type of meeting that takes place, the K- meeting?

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Oh, you pronounced it right. Yeah, K-meeting. So the K-meeting is that when you're an immigrant in this country, you know, there's racism, and you can't get a job, or you can't get a loan. No one's helping you out.

• 4:12Dan Pashman?

  Right, you need a little something to get started.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  The group of people that were first here... They create kind of like a bridge club or like a like a mahjong club or something and you're you just hang out. But then everyone in that club donates money every week or every month. And then one person, kind of like a lottery, gets picked for that month. And then you get the lump sum of, you know, what's been donated. And then you can take that money and then go and open your shop.

• 4:42Dan Pashman?

  Was that like the intent of the pot is like, we're gonna pick out a winner each month? And the idea is you're supposed to use this money to start a business?

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 4:50Dan Pashman?

  Eventually, Roy's parents won the pot. They opened a liquor store, but after a few years, that closed. They tried a jewelry business, which also struggled. Then in 1978, when Roy was eight, his parents decided to open a restaurant. They didn't have a grand vision. It's just something a lot of immigrants do, and there weren't many other Korean places around yet. But this business did have one thing going for it. Roy's mom was a great cook. There's this Korean tradition of, I want to make sure, of Seonmash?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Yes. Man, your Korean is superb so far. What the heck is going on?

• 5:23Dan Pashman?

  I'm gonna quit now.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Flavor in your fingertips. That's what it means.

• 5:30Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  It's flavor in your fingertips in a sense that you have the touch. You have, you have the magic and the pixie dust in your, in your hands and your fingers. And you're a wizard and you can swirl flavors and elixirs and spices together.

• 5:46Dan Pashman?

  It's like a deep intuition.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  The, the term specifically means the deep intuition, but also specifically means it directly comes out of your fingers, like sweat.

• 5:56Dan Pashman?

  Or, or like a wizard's rays.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Or like a wizard's rays, yes. And it comes out and it affects the food and it changes the flavor. That's what makes you so special.

• 6:05Dan Pashman?

  And it was said in the community that your mother had this, your mother had Seonmash.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Yes, my mother had it, but not only her, but my, my grandmother had it, my great grandmother had it. My family lineage going back 2,000 years had it. I was being told these stories as a kid and I was sat down and told that for thousands and thousands of years, our family had Seonmash in their fingertips. And we were all cooks and great chefs and flavor generators.

• 6:33Dan Pashman?

  Roy's parents' restaurant was called Silver Garden. They had hot plates of barbecue, banchan, and all kinds of soups and stews that his mom made. As a kid, Roy spent a lot of time at the restaurant.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  My role was, I call it maître d'.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  You know, it was during my elementary school years. I would just greet people at the door and then walk them to their table, ask them if they wanted water or this or that, and then I would never bring it to them.

• 7:01Dan Pashman?

  Why not?

• 7:02Speaker 01

  I forgot. I was fucking 10 years old, man.

• 7:09Dan Pashman?

  So you were helpful-ish.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Helpful-ish, yes.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Usually, most people just saw me under the soda machine. Drinking, drinking, drinking under the soda machine with no cup.

• 7:21Dan Pashman?

  So you just had your head under the spat?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's what people would see when they come into the restaurant.

• 7:29Dan Pashman?

  The restaurant had a good run, but after a few years of success, the business dropped sharply.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Kind of like what restaurants go through all the time. You never know. You're just living your life. You're just waking up, prepping every day, serving 200, 300 people, and then all of a sudden, there are 12 people.

• 7:47Dan Pashman?

  After the restaurant closed, the Troy family went through some hard years. Eventually, though, they found themselves back in the jewelry business, and this time it went well. Roy's parents saved up enough to move from the busy streets of LA to the wealthier suburbs of Orange County. Roy was 13 at the time, and he struggled with the transition. At first, it was pretty typical teenage rebellion stuff. He started doing poorly in school, got into a couple of fights. But then it got more serious. He started dabbling with hard drugs, taking LSD and mushrooms. He and his friends collected weapons, sawed-off shotguns, butterfly knives, brass knuckles. His parents didn't know what to do. I asked him to read an excerpt from his memoir about that time in his life.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  "I never met their high expectations, and with the drugs, my long hair, and my sneaking around, I justified their shame. When their friends visited with their Harvard-bound sons and daughters, my parents sent their quasimodo of a son to his room. Out of sight, out of mind." In my bell tower, I felt like I was in the wrong body, the wrong time, the wrong era, suffocating in a prison of structure. I had to get out. I had to disappear. I thought about ending it all, knife, wrist, gun, trigger, but no, that good Asian son heritage pulled me back. I couldn't do it. So instead, I took off for nights at a time to a place where nobody knew my name, where I could escape the expectations, the disappointments, the

• 9:09Speaker 01

  failures, even the successes. It was a place I knew as a kid, Hollywood.

• 9:15Dan Pashman?

  Roy spent many days wandering Hollywood with his friends, sometimes breaking into restaurants to steal food, then sleeping on the streets for nights at a time. I asked him what he thought pushed him past the typical teenage angst to such self-destructive behavior.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  You know, maybe I was just, you know, meant to, to do something with my life, you know, I just couldn't figure it out, you know, and there was this, there was this push and pull of a few things, which was one, my Asian heritage and culture. It's a very specific experience growing up in an Asian household, you know, um, there is the, the pressure of not only your parents and the expectations and the education, uh, you know, barometer that you have to meet. That barometer is damn high, man. But then it's not only that, it's the guilt and the passive aggressive pressure of thousands of years of ancestors that, that are being pushed on you all the time, you know, and the power of embarrassment

• 10:13Speaker 01

  that is constantly fed to you like cough syrup, you know, throughout your life. For me personally, with that, you know, I was dealing with this push and pull of like, knowing that I had something to say or this thing that I was meant to be here for, but then I couldn't deal with not being able to express it. That was, that was it for me, you know.

• 10:36Dan Pashman?

  And also, I, I mean, shoot me down if this is wrong, but I would imagine that like some of it is also like this feeling that whatever this special thing that you're meant to do is, even if you're not quite sure what it is, on some level, you understand that it's not the thing that your parents want.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Absolutely. That was, you put, you put it better than, than I just said. That's exactly what the push and pull was.

• 10:59Dan Pashman?

  Roy graduated high school, barely, and enrolled at Cal State Fullerton. But he was still getting into a lot of trouble and on the verge of flunking out. When he was 20, his parents decided to send him to Korea on a summer program for college students. They hoped it would help straighten him out and connect him with his heritage. And Roy did find that connection through the food.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Growing up in America, you hear so much about the distinction between regions throughout Europe, and especially Italy and France and Spain. When you hear about Asia, it's just called Chinese food. It's just called Korean food, you know, it's just called Vietnamese food. For me going over there, it just opened my eyes and brought a lot of depth to my understanding of like, it's not just, it's not called Korean food. It's, it's specific to each region. I started to understand why it's not so spicy on the southeast and why it's so spicy in the southwest.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Why the things that I love the most, the funkiest, dirtiest, like smelliest stuff comes from the southwest? And why the cold, brisk, kind of refreshing things come from the southeast? And then why those foods in the southeast have kind of a Japanese tinge to it? You know, I understood, I understand all those things.

• 12:17Dan Pashman?

  While the trip to Korea did make a real impact on how Roy thought about his culture, it didn't slow his downward trajectory. When he got back to the US, a bad breakup sent him into a tailspin. He spent a week smoking crack. His parents didn't know where he was. Finally, when he returned home, his mother did what she always did. She cooked for him. That was 35 years ago, but Roy remembers it vividly.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  She made salted broiled fish. She made kimchi jjigae. She made kalbitang, which is like a, like a, a slow cooked, uh, clear soup. She made all different types of pangchans and kimchis. She made mung bean pancakes. And she also made juk, which a lot of mothers feed their kids when they want to restore their, their energy. And juk is a porridge, abalone porridge.

• 13:07Dan Pashman?

  As I read Roy's memoir, I kept thinking, this has to be his rock bottom. Now he's gonna turn it around. But he kept falling further and further. After barely graduating from college, he got addicted to gambling, hanging out at a C D club where he says a guy was murdered with an axe, like literally axe murdered. Roy picked fights. He got beat up. He was held at gunpoint. He says his friends were getting tired of his behavior. And finally, when he was 24, he got tired of it too. One day, he was sleeping on his friend's couch. And when he opened his eyes, the TV was on.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  I was on that couch and the Essence of Emerald show was on there.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Hey, hey, Emeril Lagasse here. Welcome to the Essence of Emerald.

• 13:47Dan Pashman?

  Classic iconic Emeril Lagasse cooking show.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  It was just on and I was half awake on a couch. And it was just there in the ether in the background. And then I had this out of body experience.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  Why don't you come join me in the kitchen today?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  He came out of the TV, grabbed me and pulled me off the couch and slapped me around and rubbed rosemary and thyme and tarragon. And smelled this, taste this.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  I'm gonna show you how herbs and spices can make the whole difference.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  These are all things happening. Whether they're happening for real or in my mind, who knows? We only know this third dimension, but there are other dimensions, so.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  I know, you can't believe it.

• 14:29Dan Pashman?

  But like, were you high at this moment?

• 14:31Speaker 01

  No, I wasn't high.

• 14:32Dan Pashman?

  Okay. You're lying on the couch and so you have this, this vision, this out of body experience, but it's, it's, it's food specific. You know, so it's not, it's, it's not only is it a famous chef doing this in your mind, but he's literally rubbing herbs in your face, saying, get your shit together.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  This is what I was waiting for back as a kid when I was trying to explain I was meant to do something, you know? This was that moment, you know? Like, I'm here to do something. I know I can do this. There's something in, in coming out of my hands. You know, I just didn't know what it was. And, and it was, it was Emerald that, that showed me what it was, you know?

• 15:13Dan Pashman?

  I asked Roy to read another excerpt from his memoir about that experience.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Up until that moment, I just didn't see it. I didn't realize how much food was a part of my family, a part of me. I was almost too close to it all, too close to the screen to really see the big picture. But the moment Emeril waved those herbs at me, my whole world clicked into place and I saw what had been in front of my face this whole time. Food, flavors, son mash. I saw myself in the kitchen. I saw myself at home. That was it. I made up my mind. I was done with the anger, the shame, the mistakes, the self pity, the pain. For real this time, I was done. I peeled myself off the couch, got up, went to the bathroom and took a hard look at myself.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  You fucking lowlife son of a bitch. Get your shit together. Get your shit together.

• 16:07Dan Pashman?

  And just like that, you did.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Just like that, I did.

• 16:16Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Roy turns his life around and his career takes off. But when he gets fired from a prestigious job, he has to make a very tough decision. Stick around.

• 16:31Speaker 03

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• 16:33Dan Pashman?

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• 17:59Dan Pashman?

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• 18:43Dan Pashman?

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• 19:27Dan Pashman?

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• 19:46Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman and I want to shout out an event happening in Boston in a few weeks that my friend David Lewis and a few other folks are putting on. It's called the Big Queer Food Fest. It was founded to celebrate LGBTQ chefs, bartenders, authors, and purveyors. And from April 28th through May 4th, the Big Queer Food Fest is taking over Boston with the first ever multi-day celebration of queer food. There's going to be dinners, cocktail parties, chef panels, and so much more. It sounds incredible. I'm so bummed that I can't be there, but if you're in the area, you should definitely be there. It's in just a couple of weeks. Check out the whole schedule and grab your tickets now at bigqueerfoodfest.com. Now, back to my conversation with Roy Choi, whose new cookbook is The Choi of Cooking.

• 20:30Dan Pashman?

  Shortly after Emerald came to him in a vision, Roy moved to New York and enrolled at the Culinary Institute of America. He did well, and after several semesters, he and his classmates had to find externships. They fanned out across the streets of the city, dropping off resumes in kitchens, trying to find positions in the best restaurants. One by one, Roy's friends got gigs, but nothing for him. Late in the afternoon, after another day of rejection, Roy had one resume left in his hand. He was just about ready to give up.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  With that last resume, I know it sounds so poetic, but it really was. It really was. With that last resume, I was walking down 51st Street back to the 6th train, and I just happened to look left, and right at that moment, Eric Repair was in the window looking out.

• 21:15Dan Pashman?

  Eric Repair, like a very famous chef from La Bernardin. And so, but like, did you know who he was?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  No, but I had recognized his face because I had seen a magazine where he was holding a knife.

• 21:24Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so you were kind of like, I'm not, I'm not positive who that is, but I'm pretty sure he's a famous chef. And, and so you do what?

• 21:30Speaker 01

  So I look at him, and he looks like a big deal, you know?

• 21:35Dan Pashman?

  I'm picturing him like in a perfectly pressed white chef's coat.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:39Dan Pashman?

  Like a serious, like sort of contemplative expression on his face. Like, this is a guy who means business.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  You were there. That's exactly, that's exactly what it was. And then I look over, and just crisp and clean, this, this, this beautiful specimen of a human being. And then I look around, I'm holding the resume, and I just look at him through the glass, and I pointed at my resume, and I pointed at him, and I pointed at me. And then... And again, if I knew who he was, you know, us as young culinary students, I would have never done that because we have so much reverence and respect, you know, yes chef, right? Yes chef, head down, yes chef.

• 22:17Dan Pashman?

  Right, probably better that you didn't quite realize exactly who he was.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  But I was just like, yo, motherfucker, like, you know, here, you me.

• 22:23Dan Pashman?

  You me, resume, let's do this.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  You me, let's do this, yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  And then I guess he's, you know, like, he felt something too. And then he said, come around back. And then I came out and then by the time I had walked in, service had started. And it was like walking onto a Broadway show just as the curtains opened. And then you just, and you're somehow like on the stage, you know, it was like a trip. He took me outside and put me on the pass.

• 22:52Dan Pashman?

  Right. The pass is the place where the, the finished dishes, right, come out, come from the, the chefs in the kitchen, that comes to the counter for a final inspection before it goes to the table.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  So I get brought back to that area. You know, just 30 minutes before, I was like going to the six train, you know? And then all of a sudden, by 5:15, I'm like, you know...

• 23:14Dan Pashman?

  You're at the pass at La Bernardine.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  And, and he just had me sit, stand there for like 30, 40 minutes, watching service, where the chef stands and expedites and calls out the tickets. And then the cooks are in, in a brigade behind the chef, uh, yelling back, we, you know, yes, yes chef, we chef. And then the food gets brought up and then it gets finished at the pass and then the servers take it out on silver trays. And then at the end of that, he pulled me back around and then back to the office and said, so, do you find our kitchen, um, worthy of your externship? Would you like to work here? And I was like, yes?

• 23:51Dan Pashman?

  Yes chef.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Yes chef, yeah, we chef.

• 23:58Dan Pashman?

  Roy completed his externship at the Bernardin, then began climbing the ladder in the world of professional cooking. He started off in country clubs, small hotels and resorts, and eventually made his way to bigger places. He wasn't necessarily at major culinary hotspots, but he says the experience was invaluable.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  You learn how to cook American food. You learn how to cook meatloaf, pot roast, um, corn on the cob, club sandwich. Maybe these things may sound a little pedestrian, but there's a, an essence and a beauty to them if you pay attention to them. You know, there's a reason why they exist and are timeless. And a bad or mediocre club sandwich, you know, is the worst thing in the world, but a really, really great club sandwich is the best thing in the world.

• 24:44Dan Pashman?

  I'm so happy to hear you say that because when I go to a diner, and I'm from New Jersey, so I have great reverence for diners. And if I go to a diner, I either get an omelet or a club sandwich. What, what do you think? What is the secret to a great club sandwich, Roy?

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Well, one is paying attention to it. You know, is paying attention to the layers. You gotta remember that it's an architectural masterpiece.

• 25:03Dan Pashman?

  Yes, yes.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  So you can't just put together a house of cards. You know, you-

• 25:09Dan Pashman?

  It needs to have structural integrity.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Structural integrity. You have to look at it like Frank Gehry. And then you have to, you can't use wilted lettuce. You know, you can't use, uh, cheap turkey, cheap bread. You know, you gotta pay attention to these things. You have to toast it correctly. And then the bacon should be cooked correctly. You know, and it shouldn't just be haphazardly thrown together. It's a very powerful sandwich because it, it has three pieces of bread sometimes in it. Um, and so you have to be very, uh, very specific with your intent on how you, how you construct that.

• 25:42Dan Pashman?

  What are your feelings about condiments on the club sandwich? Cause this is something, as an avid club sandwich eater, I still struggle with knowing what, what the right condiment is and how to, how to add it.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  To me, it's just mayonnaise. It's mayonnaise and then Tabasco sauce on the side.

• 25:56Dan Pashman?

  Oh, okay.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  You know, yeah. You could do cracked pepper and stuff in between the layers. But to me, my club sandwich is a turkey cheese sandwich on the bottom and a BLT on top. And that's the way I make my club sandwich and how I learned it.

• 26:10Dan Pashman?

  That's interesting because, because I think a lot of people put the bacon with the turkey.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, nah. Y'all wrong, y'all wrong for that.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  You make a BLT, you make a BLT and then a turkey sandwich.

• 26:21Dan Pashman?

  Oh, okay.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Together are separated by the third slice.

• 26:25Dan Pashman?

  The middle slice, right.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  The middle slice. And that becomes the club sandwich.

• 26:30Dan Pashman?

  No, man. Someday, Roy, I want to come to LA and I want us to do a club sandwich pop up.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  I'm in, let's do it.

• 26:36Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's do it. Like, like, there could be a couple of different versions, like maybe one is like a, you know, put a Roy choice spin on it, whatever, you know, I don't want to get in the way of your artistic sensibilities because you obviously know what you're doing, but like, I just love the club sandwich. And I think, I think it might be prime, it might be like due for a reappraisal.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Well, everyone's into retro now, you know, so even beyond cultural trends, I think, just think a club sandwich pop up is amazing.

• 27:00Dan Pashman?

  All right, all right, all right, we'll talk, we'll talk.

• 27:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:03Dan Pashman?

  Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

• 27:07Dan Pashman?

  Clearly Roy's passion is infectious. And I can see how he could get a restaurant kitchen full of people instantly excited about a new project, ready to follow him wherever it leads. And that bond that people who work in a restaurant share, it's sacred to him.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  The kitchen is such a powerful place, you know, it, it, it is a refuge and like a breathing ground for us misfits, you know, it, it saves so many souls. I became the person I was meant to be through a kitchen.

• 27:35Dan Pashman?

  Are you able to put your finger on what it is about cooking and working in a restaurant and being in the kitchen that, that did that?

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Definitely, there's so many things, there's, there's a level of connectedness that you need each other, you know, for a lot of people that never felt needed in their whole life. A lot of us that end up in kitchens are usually people that ended up on the fray, that ended up getting spit out by our families, by life, everything, where no one said we were worthy or needed for anything. And if, and all of a sudden you're in the center, you're, you're completely needed, you know, and that, that instills a lot of confidence and, and power and trust and love in, in that person.

• 28:23Dan Pashman?

  Roy continues climbing the career ladder. At age 37, he becomes head chef at the Beverly Hilton Hotel. Now, this is not just a fancy hotel. It's also where the Golden Globes are held every year. After a few years there, Roy is lured to a splashy new restaurant called Rock Sugar. He helps build the menu, and when it opens, it becomes one of the hottest spots in L.A. Halle Berry and the Beckhams are a few of the celebrity diners. But it's all too much. There are too many dishes, too many customers, and a wildly fluctuating pace. It all moves too fast for Roy. He struggles to keep up, and after a series of mistakes, he gets fired. A major setback. Now, it's 2008. The Great Recession is starting, and Roy is struggling to find any work. He even gets rejected by a small local country club. He's starting to feel desperate.

• 29:07Dan Pashman?

  And that's when he gets a call from Mark Mangere, a friend and former coworker from the Beverly Hilton. Mark's got a big idea that he wants to pitch to Roy. Mark says-

• 29:16Speaker 01

  You want to start a Korean taco truck and park in front of the clubs late night? We're gonna kill it. That was his exact words.

• 29:23Dan Pashman?

  Immediate reaction. What are you thinking when he says that?

• 29:26Speaker 01

  I was just like, I was just out of respect, giving, you know, giving him my attention. But in my mind, I was like, this dude's crazy. We ain't gonna do this. Like, I'm not gonna do this, you know? I have to get a job. I just didn't know how to say yes because I was a career chef at that time. You know, I didn't know how to be an entrepreneur.

• 29:47Dan Pashman?

  But Roy did know he had to do something.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  I had gotten fired from my job, you know? The economy had just crashed. I was out of work. So his timing and just the way the stars aligned were perfect. Just like that Emerald moment. I was there, ready to accept and listen and hear the words that Mark was saying. And I just needed a night to sleep on it.

• 30:14Dan Pashman?

  So you sleep on it, and the next day-

• 30:17Speaker 01

  I was like, let's do this. Let's do, just like the club sandwich pop-up. Let's do this.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  So everything happened instantaneously. Once he heard, "Let's do this," he picked me up. We went to the store, got ingredients. I started opening up my third eye and I just started like, "Okay, what is this Korean barbecue taco?" Then I started, all these memories and energies of growing up, started to flow through me. Started to feel all the tacos I've eaten throughout my life. All the family homes that I had been welcomed into. All the lowrider clubs that I had been a part of. All the Korean restaurants that I had eaten at. All the food from my mother and my family and my aunties. You know, all these things just started flowing into this tornado.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  And then I went to the market and it just kind of started picking ingredients, you know, without even thinking. I was out of my brain. It was all coming like through my spirit. Started filling up the basket and we went back to his, we didn't go to a professional kitchen, we went back to his apartment. And then I just started prepping these things.

• 31:31Dan Pashman?

  Within an hour or two, the Korean beef taco was in Roy's hand.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  So it was two grilled corn tortillas, marinated kalbi, double caramelized, cilantro onion with lime, salt, pepper. And it had this Korean goksejang salsa, which was emulsified like the chili de arbol, street taco salsas. And then it had a salsa verde as well. Roasted salsa verde with roasted garlic and tons of cilantro and lime. And then it had sesame seeds on top. We ate it and there was a couple of other people there as well. And we all looked at each other and we're just like, "Fuck."

• 32:17Dan Pashman?

  We talked about this idea of sonmash, flavor in the fingertips, that you talked about, sort of this idea that it's been passed down through generations of your family. Was there a moment that you realized that you have it? Because your description of you in the supermarket, the day you made that taco, it sounds like something was flowing through you.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  That was definitely the stamp. That was the final stamp. And so that's kind of when I knew I had it in my fingertips.

• 32:43Dan Pashman?

  Roy felt immediately that he was on to something with this taco. Now, all he needed was a truck.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  The first truck was an old catering, white catering truck that was loaned to us. It was like, like the last truck on the lot that, that the truck owner was like, I just take this one. You know? And then we just put this like vinyl, like makeshift logo on the side. And then we went out there and then we went in front of the club. And, uh, I don't know, man, it just, the first people to really start to eat it were just like people at night that happened upon it. They were a little, you know, semi drunk coming out of the club. And they would eat it not expecting anything, just looking for something like a pizza slice to fill their stomach. And, uh, and they would take a bite and the eyes would go back in their head. And I was just like, man, we, we got something here.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  The problem with that audience is that they didn't remember who we were.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  The next day.

• 33:41Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, that's the downside of feeding drunk people lunch in the morning.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Who we were. Well, but, um, but eventually social media kicked in and Twitter kicked in and things started to change.

• 33:52Dan Pashman?

  Roy named his truck Kogi, the Korean word for meat. It launched and quickly became a sensation. And, you know, you gotta realize these days, food trucks have become a low cost way for chefs to get discovered, build a following before opening a restaurant. But back then chefs from the Beverly Hilton and buzzy restaurants like Rock Sugar were not interested in food trucks. Nobody could imagine that you could win food and wine's best new chef award running a food truck. And yet in 2010, Roy won it. Kogi was listed in the LA Times 101 best restaurants in 2013. On Masterclass, they call Roy the godfather of the gourmet food truck movement. And may I remind you, there's a whole movie inspired by his story? In 2016, Roy made Time magazine's list of the 100 most influential people. That was partly because food trucks took off after Roy did it.

• 34:38Dan Pashman?

  But also because when he put Korean beef in a taco, he helped start a huge trend of culinary mashups. When Kogi first opened, the late, great LA food critic Jonathan Gold wrote, quote, "Kogi's taco is a new paradigm of a restaurant, an art directed take on Korean street food previously unimaginable in both California and Seoul. Cheap, unbelievably delicious, and unmistakably from Los Angeles. Food that makes you feel plugged into the rhythms of the city just by eating it." All that said, as we've seen since this became a trend, not everyone is able to fuse cuisine so seamlessly. Roy obviously knew Korean food and he grew up in LA where Mexican culture is woven into the fabric of the city. For him, it was organic. But not every fusion cuisine or culinary mashup that's come along since has worked as well.

• 35:24Dan Pashman?

  Still, overall, Roy likes the trend he helped launch.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  It allows people to, especially cooks or maybe folks who run small restaurants, to find new ways to attract people into their place or make flavors. I'm not a big authenticity guy where, oh, this this white guy can't cook ramen or the Japanese guy can't cook pizza, you know, all these things like I don't believe in discrimination of what people should cook. Maybe they're just throwing it together because it's trendy at first, but I hope if it does bring them some success, it allows them to go down the path to learn about it, you know, to learn about where this food comes from or how they could make it better, even if they don't learn about culturally of how they could refine it.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Because we all have to start somewhere, you know, and it's okay if people start with just a glop or a train wreck, but then if it allows them to get to a better place, then that's a good thing, you know?

• 36:24Dan Pashman?

  Roy's open-hearted approach has led to more success in the years since the launch of Kogi. He opened the restaurant Best Friend in the Park MGM in Las Vegas, which he describes as a mashup of bodega, bar and restaurant. He recently opened the chef truck in Vegas too, serving the food depicted in the movie. In LA, you can still see Kogi trucks driving all over town. And if you don't want to use social media to track their location, there's one permanently parked on the west side. Or check out the Alibi Room, a bar in Culver City that serves Roy's Kogi menu. Now, his latest project is the Choi of Cooking. It's more than a cookbook. It's an expression of Roy's personal philosophy and love of food.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  I really wanted to share.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  The trail and the path to where you could get there too. And like how great it is over here, you know? Like getting into cooking, personal transformation of loving and giving and caring and nourishing. Flavor, how to maximize flavor, how to be one with ingredients? How to cook instinctually, make adjustments on the fly? You know, all of these things are the joy of cooking. The joy of cooking is a philosophy.

• 37:32Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, and you talk in the book kind of about wrestling with your own food demons over the course of your life.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:39Dan Pashman?

  Eating your feelings and I was eating a lot of junk. So how is that sort of part of the inspiration of the book?

• 37:45Speaker 01

  I come from an era and a life and a friendship group and neighborhoods of we don't sometimes know how to eat healthy. There's a polarity to it of like, we have to either eat healthy or we have to give up on the things we want. And I just tried to write a book that spoke to a lot of people that are similar to, you know, myself or whoever. They don't want to give up on the things they love, but at the same time, they don't want to die. You know, and they don't also don't want to wear yoga pants. And, and the thing is, is like, how do we make a healthy book? But still allow you to enjoy the things that you want to enjoy in life.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  And so it's like taking gut bombs and like club sandwiches or like hamburgers or tuna melts. Taking noodle dishes and steamed pork, you know, just taking all these things, you know, that you want to eat. But finding ways to manipulate them without them losing their sensation, but making them healthier. But it not being like you're just eating salads, like even the salads in the books eat like a meal.

• 38:59Dan Pashman?

  Right, right. Yeah, some of those salads look insane.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:02Dan Pashman?

  Tuna Niçolas, Bibimbap, you got, uh,

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:05Dan Pashman?

  the, uh, Cottre Pepe Caesar. I mean, like, I can't wait to make that for my family.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Thank you. And a big part of my philosophy, I always believe you have to start somewhere. So this book is really about starting somewhere, wherever you are. If you aren't eating healthy right now, this book can help you start without you feeling like you're giving up who you are. And then if you're already advanced and wearing yoga pants and drinking green juice, that this book has recipes already there to meet you.

• 39:34Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  And so that's what the Troy of Cooking is all about.

• 39:38Dan Pashman?

  So Roy, last year you were awarded an honorary doctorate from your alma mater, Cal State Fullerton. You even delivered the commencement address to the university's College of Business and Economics.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 39:50Dan Pashman?

  That must have been a trip, thinking about what kind of shape you were in when you were actually a student there, to the point you're at now.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  That's crazy. I don't even remember graduating.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  To be honest, I don't even, I was a D student.

• 40:04Dan Pashman?

  Right. But it, but it's interesting to me that you delivered the commencement address at the business school because like in business school, I would imagine that they teach you sort of like to be very analytical, very strategic. There's a lot of data, there's a lot.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  That was crazy. Yeah, that was crazy too. Thanks for running that. You keep reminding me of how, of the specific reasons why things are so crazy.

• 40:23Dan Pashman?

  So you go, no, go on, like, like, like, why is it so crazy? Cause like, you're somebody that seems like, like you have so much been guided by intuition.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  I don't even know how much is in our corporate bank account.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  I'm serious.

• 40:35Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  I, I don't run the businesses with ROI in mind. I have great partners and people on my team that, that, that do that, but me as the, as the leader and the CEO of the companies, those aren't the things that I speak about every day in our pre-shifts or in our, in our meetings or in our mission statements. You know, I run our businesses, you know, out of heart and soul. And for me to speak at the business school and then give the speech about those things of like running the business from a mystical metaphysical standpoint. I don't know how many of them really took it to heart, but that was the speech I gave.

• 41:17Dan Pashman?

  Roy encouraged the business school students to lead with kindness, love and generosity. He said, quote, "I know businesses are about scale and growth and domination, but we can be rich without others having to be poor. There's a world where that can exist and you can lead that change." Roy keeps doing his part to lead that change. His James Beard Award-winning TV series Broken Bread featured people using restaurants and food to highlight social justice issues. In 2016, he opened Local, a restaurant bringing quality fast food to the struggling neighborhood of Watts. And recently, in the aftermath of the LA wildfires, Roy's used his kogi trucks to deliver meals to people who've been displaced.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  It was a tough three months. My company kind of pivoted January, February, and even until today, feeding the relief efforts. So our business model changed over the first three months and it takes a different like energy and a different heart.

• 42:12Dan Pashman?

  How is it different doing that kind of like feeding relief workers, people as opposed to running restaurants?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  You gotta dig deeper. You have to get the equation of money out of your head in many ways. You know, you have to be ready to absorb the despair and the grief. You have to be strong enough to, to go through that storm with others. It's not transactional and you're going through that with someone and food is a, is a very, is a very powerful bridge. It doesn't solve anything. It doesn't solve their house being rebuilt. It doesn't solve, you know, the fire stopping. It doesn't solve their pain, but it's a very powerful mechanism that helps them in that moment. So that's, that's where it becomes more than a business.

• 42:59Dan Pashman?

  Congrats on the book, Roy. I'm really happy to finally get a chance to, to meet in person. And hey, if you want to do a club sandwich pop-up, I'll come to LA for it. You just say the word, you know, we'll make it happen.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  I think LA and New York. I think that we would be the hottest thing in each town and we might have to pull out the third slice for efficiency.

• 43:20Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Cause it will be that busy.

• 43:26Dan Pashman?

  But then is it separately a BLT and a turkey sandwich? Are we, is it a club sandwich if it's not a double decker?

• 43:32Speaker 01

  We'll have to, we'll have to have long nights of discussion about that.

• 43:44Dan Pashman?

  That's Roy Choi. His new book is called The Choi of Cooking. It's out this week. Get it wherever books are sold. Next week on the show, I talk to three men in different stages of their lives about what it's like managing eating disorders. Boys and men are one-third of the population diagnosed with an eating disorder. So this affects millions of men in the US. But they're less likely to be diagnosed and less likely to seek treatment. We find out what that looks like for three men. That's next week. While I wait for that one, check out my conversation from last week with comedian Matteo Lane. He talks about how Italian machismo is tied up with cooking. Why dried pasta is sometimes better than fresh. And offers some very pointed advice to a Sporkful listener. That one's up now. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts,

• 44:29Dan Pashman?

  plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era. Plus, live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer Andres O'Hara. And producer

• 44:57Speaker 04

  Kimmy Gregory.

• 44:58Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. And our intern is Julia Liu. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  And I'm Alex Faugh, calling from San Diego, California. Just got done eating a burger with a fried egg and some pickled onions on top, reminding everyone to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 45:36Speaker 05

  Who's ready for a bike ride?

• 45:38Speaker 04

  Peppa Pig is learning to ride her bike. First, pop on her helmet. Safety first. Then attach the push stick and give her bike a push.

• 45:50Speaker 04

  And watch Papa Paddle. Her legs go round and round as the wheels turn. With more than 75 sounds and phrases, every ride is a big adventure. Papa Pig Ready, Paddle, Go. Available at all major retailers now.

• 46:05Speaker 06

  Tu sausage McMuffin with egg no cambió. Tu recibo, sí. El sausage McMuffin with egg, extra value meal. Trae un hash brown y un café pequeño por 5 dólares. Solo en McDonald's, por tiempo limitado. Precios y participación pueden variar. El precio de la promoción puede ser más bajo que el precio del meal.