Is Sandwich Sexism Real? (Reheat)

A while back on the show, food critic Mimi Sheraton told a story about a time she had 104 pastrami sandwiches in her car. She was taking them to a scale to weigh them to see which Jewish deli gave you the biggest sandwich for your money. A Sporkful listener named Bill in San Clemente, California, heard that episode and called in with a pretty provocative question: Do places make smaller sandwiches for women?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

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• 0:43Dan Pashman?

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• 1:27Dan Pashman?

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• 1:37Speaker 01

  Sirius XM Podcasts.

• 1:45Dan Pashman?

  It's Dan here with your Friday reheat, and this is gonna be a double dose of sandwich episodes. The first one here, I still get asked about this episode, even though it's been so many years. And it's one that I think about a lot. It's all about the idea of sandwich sexism. Do places make different-sized sandwiches for women than they do for men? To get to the bottom of this, I set off on a four-stop mission around New York City with my friend Laura Anderson. And then in the second half of the show, we're gonna go deep into the archives for an episode I did about a grilled sandwich competition in Brooklyn. Coincidentally, this competition is where I first met an executive at WNYC named Chris Bannon, who would later hire me to come do the Sporkful there. It was kind of my big break. So, thank you, Chris. Thank you to my buddy Ilya for inviting me to this. And thank you to you for listening to me talk all about it. Remember, there's an episode of the

• 2:30Dan Pashman?

  Sporkful you want us to reheat? Drop me a line, [email protected]. Thanks and enjoy. A while back, I interviewed legendary food critic Mimi Sheridan here on the show. And she told me this story about a time she had 104 pastrami sandwiches in her car. She was taking them to a scale, to weigh them, to see which Jewish deli gave you the biggest sandwich for your money. Well, a Sporkful listener named Bill in San Clemente, California, heard that episode and called in with a pretty provocative suggestion.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  The first thought I had was that, that they make the sandwiches smaller for women. And my wife and I were discussing it, and she wasn't so sure that would be true. And I think you guys should do an episode where you guys do some investigative eating and get out there and see if, if there's a gender disparity in sandwich making.

• 3:19Dan Pashman?

  What's your wife's take on, on this? What, what does she think about the sandwich weight issue? Why does she think it's, it's possible?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  She wasn't sure it was possible. We talked about it after I, you know, I mentioned it. She's the one actually said, you should send Dan an email. And because she said, I don't know if that's true or not. She goes, it wouldn't bother me if it was. Because she goes, I can't eat those giant sandwiches.

• 3:42Dan Pashman?

  But, but she's being charged the same amount?

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Yes. I think that, that, but she, she probably wouldn't eat it all anyway.

• 3:51Dan Pashman?

  But, but what your wife is accepting here, in theory, is like, the opposite of equal pay.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:58Dan Pashman?

  It's not fair to charge the same price for all sandwiches and then give smaller ones to women.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Oh, totally.

• 4:03Dan Pashman?

  Especially when they're not making as much for the same work. Am I right, ladies? Come on. Equal pay for equal pastrami.

• 4:12Dan Pashman?

  So, so what would, what would we have to do to, to satisfy you? Like, I'm thinking, we need to set out criteria. We need to, let's make this as scientific as we're able. I think one of the important things when we pick the places, though, is that the people who make the sandwiches have to see the person who ordered it.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah. If you go, yeah. If they don't see you, it would be invalid.

• 4:35Dan Pashman?

  The person making the sandwich may not know if they're making it for a man or a woman.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  No, no, you have to order it from the guy that makes the sandwich.

• 4:41Dan Pashman?

  Right, right. All right, Bill. We're gonna go out, we're gonna eat sandwiches, because this is the burden we bear for you, the loyal listener. And we will report back on what we find.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you very much, Dan.

• 4:56Dan Pashman?

  This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. So, before I could embark on my mission to test Bill's theory of sandwich sexism, I needed to establish some guidelines.

• 5:15Speaker 03

  Hello?

• 5:16Dan Pashman?

  Hey, Lauren, it's Dan.

• 5:18Speaker 03

  Hi, Dan. How are you?

• 5:19Dan Pashman?

  Good, good. I'm actually in the middle of doing my show right now, and I kinda need your help.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 5:26Dan Pashman?

  So, this is my friend Lauren Hale. She's an associate professor at Stony Brook University. She runs a lot of studies and crunches a lot of numbers. I wanted our experiment to be as scientific as possible. So, I brought her up to speed on what we were planning and asked her how to do it right.

• 5:40Speaker 03

  For starters, you're probably gonna need to buy a lot of sandwiches.

• 5:45Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  That might not be a problem for you. I don't know.

• 5:48Dan Pashman?

  How many? I mean, how many would we need for this to, to make it into the journal science?

• 5:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  That is a big conundrum, because it could vary a lot, depending on the size of the differential.

• 6:03Dan Pashman?

  So, basically, what you're saying is that the narrower, the difference between male sandwiches and female sandwiches, the more total sandwiches we need to buy in order to prove that there's a meaningful difference?

• 6:15Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 6:16Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 6:17Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 6:17Dan Pashman?

  Gotcha. Well, due to time and budgetary constraints, I think we're probably just gonna get about five sandwiches.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 6:25Dan Pashman?

  And see what happens.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  You still might find something, and, and we can test that. If you give me the numbers, I can crunch it for you.

• 6:34Dan Pashman?

  Now, it was time to go out and get those numbers. Of course, to do that, I wouldn't need a partner in crime, a woman to order sandwiches with me, so we could compare results. And I knew just the person. My friend Laura Anderson is an editor at Grist, who's written a lot about food over the years. For a long time, her Twitter profile said, "My interests include food, feminism, and fun. Just kidding, I hate fun." Clearly, Laura was perfect. Before we started, we discussed expectations.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Maybe there are people who will be like, hey, I look at the person, I take a bunch of factors into consideration, I, you know, think about how hungry they look, and I make a sandwich accordingly. Probably not, but maybe.

• 7:15Dan Pashman?

  Right, right. I also think, like, if I was a guy behind a sandwich counter, and if an attractive woman walked in, and if I was looking to win her over in some way, my thought process, the way it works, is I would make her, like, the biggest, most awesome sandwich I'd ever made.

• 7:32Speaker 04

  Interesting.

• 7:33Dan Pashman?

  And if that doesn't impress her, then that's not the girl for me.

• 7:36Speaker 04

  Do you expect that all of our, all of the sandwich makers are going to be men? I expect that most of them will be, but possibly not all.

• 7:43Dan Pashman?

  Do they have female sandwich makers now?

• 7:46Dan Pashman?

  Wow.

• 7:47Speaker 04

  I know.

• 7:48Dan Pashman?

  Now I've heard of it all, Laura.

• 7:49Speaker 04

  I know, I know. What is the world coming to?

• 7:53Dan Pashman?

  No, you're right. That was, I should say he or she. And so, so do you think that it's more likely that a male sandwich maker would make an extra-big sandwich to impress a female customer? Or that a female sandwich maker would make an extra-big sandwich to impress a male customer?

• 8:07Speaker 04

  I just don't think that sandwich makers are trying to impress people all that often. Like, I don't think that this is a scenario that comes up that frequently.

• 8:17Dan Pashman?

  That's not how everyone thinks?

• 8:18Speaker 04

  I, we will find out.

• 8:21Dan Pashman?

  Right. Let's do it.

• 8:22Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 8:30Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Laura and I set off on a mission around New York City, buy a bunch of sandwiches, and weigh them. Is sandwich sexism real? We'll find out. Stick around.

• 8:53Speaker 05

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• 9:44Dan Pashman?

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• 10:01Dan Pashman?

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• 10:35Dan Pashman?

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• 11:06Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to a Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. Hey, if you're not already following the Sporkful in your podcasting app, what are you waiting for? In Apple Podcasts and Spotify, go to our show page and click Follow. In other apps, it might be like a plus sign, or a subscribe button, or a heart, whatever it is in your podcasting app, please do that thing. It's the best way to ensure you'll never miss an episode and it's good for our show. So please, go ahead and do it right now while you're listening. Thank you. Now, back to the issue of sandwich sexism. My friend Laura and I had a list of shops. We planned to go into each place one right after the other and each order the exact same sandwich without letting on that we were together. Then, after we got our sandwiches, we dropped the charade, tell them about our experiment, and tried to interview the sandwich makers.

• 11:51Dan Pashman?

  Our first stop was a typical New York bodega, like a little market with a deli counter. We got turkey sandwiches on rolls.

• 12:00Dan Pashman?

  The counter guy was too busy to chat, so we moved on to an old school Italian place called Fico's. I recorded my order with my cellphone. Listen to me trying to sound like I was making the sandwich up as I went along, even though I knew I was gonna order the exact sandwich Laura got. Hi, could I please have a fresh mozzarella sandwich? Could I do like broccoli rob? And um, do you have like artichokes? Okay. Yeah, I know, smooth. I got my sub, it was massive. Laura came back into the store and I pulled out my mic. We talked to a counter guy named Hoover Gutierrez. He insisted he's an equal opportunity sandwich maker.

• 12:40Speaker 06

  I always make sure to keep it the same. Every little focus on the customer, I focus on the sandwich. It's just so routine. When someone asks for something, I'm already, I'm already in my own mind zone and I'm just making a sandwich, packing it up and go.

• 12:51Dan Pashman?

  So Hoover, how do you portion the sandwiches? Like when you make a sandwich, how do you know how much meat or how much cheese to put on?

• 12:58Speaker 06

  I think it's all a matter of practice. After you make five or 10, you just happen to eyeball it. And for some reason, I always hit it right on the dot. It's just, I mean, I've been doing this for over nine years, so.

• 13:08Dan Pashman?

  Do you ever put a little extra into a sandwich? Like, let's say a guy comes in and he seems real friendly and he looks like he's real hungry, maybe he's a big burly construction worker. Do you ever throw in an extra slice of meat?

• 13:17Speaker 06

  Maybe a slice or two, but definitely just try to keep it the same for everybody.

• 13:22Dan Pashman?

  Does anyone ever request a bigger or smaller sandwich? Does anyone ever request smaller?

• 13:26Speaker 06

  Surprisingly, people request both.

• 13:29Dan Pashman?

  What customers would you say are more likely to request smaller sandwiches?

• 13:33Speaker 06

  Females. Females always want to look, take care of their shape and are worried about too many calories or so. Females were, females are most likely to request less meat and healthier bread, like a whole wheat bread.

• 13:47Dan Pashman?

  Do you think it's possible that like, you know, sandwich makers in general, not even at this store, but in the world, do you think it's possible that some people might, even without thinking, not on purpose, make smaller sandwiches for women than for men once in a while?

• 14:03Speaker 06

  I think that's definitely a possibility. And if I think someone was gonna make a lighter sandwich, it would probably be for a female, just for their safety or for their better interest.

• 14:21Dan Pashman?

  Our next stop was for banh mi sandwiches, but it turned out at this place that the sandwiches were made in the back, so the cook wouldn't know if they were making them for a man or woman. We nixed the banh mi, but we did refuel with some Vietnamese iced coffee. From there, it was on to a Mexican place called Choza for tortas. There are a lot of regional variations on the torta. These had cheese, black bean paste, chili cream, salsa, guacamole, and a choice of meat. Laura's a vegetarian, so I had to coach her up a bit on the order. All right, you go in.

• 14:50Speaker 04

  Wait, but tell me what kind of torta you got?

• 14:52Dan Pashman?

  Carnitas. That's all I gotta say, carnitas torta.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  With everything.

• 14:55Dan Pashman?

  Just say, one carnitas torta.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  Okay. Thank you for the script. One carnitas torta, I think I can remember it.

• 15:03Dan Pashman?

  I really want to see you go up there and be like, line.

• 15:07Dan Pashman?

  After we got our tortas, we talked to the woman who made them. Her name is Jay Lavi.

• 15:12Speaker 07

  I'm very consistent, like, and I really argue with my, even with my boss, I argue with him and with my other coworkers.

• 15:19Dan Pashman?

  What's the argument?

• 15:20Speaker 07

  Consistency.

• 15:21Dan Pashman?

  So you say you want it to be consistent?

• 15:22Speaker 07

  Yes, because people expect to come back and taste and try the same thing.

• 15:29Dan Pashman?

  One of the things that we're exploring here is whether or not, sometimes even by accident, without thinking, a person making a sandwich might make a sandwich smaller for women than they make it for men. Do you think that's possible?

• 15:41Speaker 07

  Um, when I did, when I worked nights, I think it was on a Saturday, I think, one of my delivery guys.

• 15:50Dan Pashman?

  And what did he do?

• 15:51Speaker 07

  He made the burrito for the men bigger.

• 15:53Dan Pashman?

  And did you say anything to him?

• 15:54Speaker 07

  Of course.

• 15:54Dan Pashman?

  What did you say?

• 15:56Speaker 07

  I said, you know, it's equally amount of each item, you know, like, I go over that a lot with them.

• 16:03Dan Pashman?

  Did you accuse him of doing it because she was a woman?

• 16:06Speaker 07

  I didn't tell him that, but I knew it. You know, I knew it.

• 16:11Dan Pashman?

  Are there any other examples you can think of, of a time that you, you know that someone made a smaller sandwich for a woman?

• 16:16Speaker 07

  Hmm, I've seen it. Like, I've seen it with, when I used to work at McDonald's with the fries and, and everything. I've seen it with the ice creams and I used to work in Starbucks. I saw it also with the milk. They, they used to even ask the girls, well, you like nonfat, not the men's?

• 16:32Dan Pashman?

  Interesting. And you said in McDonald's, they would portion the fries differently for men or women?

• 16:37Speaker 07

  Yes, they will. Um, yep.

• 16:40Dan Pashman?

  So you think, so this is a real thing, this happens all over the place?

• 16:42Speaker 07

  And in my house, in my, when I grew up, they gave more food to my boys, the boys in my family than the girls. Seen it all through my life.

• 16:51Dan Pashman?

  All right, thank you very much, this is great.

• 16:52Speaker 07

  Thank you. Thank you for choosing my restaurant.

• 17:01Dan Pashman?

  Laura, thoughts?

• 17:02Speaker 04

  I did not expect to have someone so openly acknowledge this pervasive unequal treatment. So that was really fascinating.

• 17:12Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 17:12Speaker 04

  Of course, of course, they don't have a policy of discrimination, but what she said sounded very plausible.

• 17:18Dan Pashman?

  And it could, we should say, it could be a result of unconscious bias.

• 17:21Speaker 04

  Of course, yeah.

• 17:22Dan Pashman?

  It's not necessarily that, that a person is saying, I'm going to shortchange this woman.

• 17:26Speaker 04

  Right. But it seems like this is perhaps an overgeneralization based on that one conversation, but it seems like maybe women are more conscious of this possibility than men are. And so women working in the food industry are perhaps less likely to unconsciously give more to men than to women. Or maybe not. I'm glad, I'm glad we got to meet a female sandwich maker, though. One with so much experience.

• 17:50Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, they do exist.

• 17:51Speaker 04

  They do exist, it's true.

• 18:02Dan Pashman?

  Of course, we couldn't do this test without hitting up a type of restaurant known for its portion sizes, the Jewish deli. We went to Second Avenue Deli for pastrami on rye, and I talked to the owner, Jeremy Lebowal. I asked him whether sandwich sexism could be real.

• 18:16Speaker 06

  Anything is possible, but when you're dealing with a ingredient like pastrami, or brisket, or corned beef that is so expensive and your food costs are, are so crucial to making sure that your business...

• 18:27Dan Pashman?

  Business is profitable and can stay profitable. I don't see it happening, no.

• 18:36Dan Pashman?

  Now, this episode was made back when we were doing the Sporkful at New York Public Radio. So Laura and I took the sandwiches there and headed down to the mailroom, where they have a scale. We met up with Alethea John, who basically runs the show down there.

• 18:49Speaker 03

  I think that they're really cheap with us women because they think that, you know, we're underneath the men sometimes, and then we can't eat as much as they can. But if I was making my own sandwich, it would be really double time, extra meat, extra cheese, extra mayo, lettuce and tomato. You know what I'm saying?

• 19:07Dan Pashman?

  Yes.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 19:08Dan Pashman?

  Now, we need your help to both operate the mailroom scale and help us eat sandwiches. Can you, are you qualified to do both of those things?

• 19:17Speaker 03

  I am qualified to do more than that. And yes, eat it all.

• 19:21Dan Pashman?

  All right. Okay, we're putting the first sandwich onto the, onto the scale. Here we go.

• 19:28Dan Pashman?

  10.6 ounces for the male turkey sandwich. All right, 10.6. Now, the female turkey sandwich. 10.9 for the female.

• 19:40Speaker 03

  That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Okay.

• 19:42Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  All right. That's not a discrimination. All right.

• 19:46Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 19:48Dan Pashman?

  Now comes the big mozzarella sandwiches that we got at the Italian deli.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  1 pound, 6.2 ounce.

• 19:54Dan Pashman?

  Okay. 1 pound, 6.2 ounce for the male giant mozzarella. You got that, Ann?

• 20:02Dan Pashman?

  Alethea, what do we have?

• 20:03Speaker 01

  1 pound, 9.1.

• 20:06Dan Pashman?

  Wow, so once again, bigger.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  That is crazy. So far, I'm shocked.

• 20:12Dan Pashman?

  Two out of two.

• 20:12Speaker 04

  I'm eating this one. This one is mine.

• 20:15Dan Pashman?

  All right. What do you think about this so far, Laura?

• 20:18Speaker 04

  I'm, I'm surprised. I think this is, so far, this goes against the hypothesis that inspired the episode.

• 20:26Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's move on to our tortas.

• 20:29Dan Pashman?

  Which one's this?

• 20:29Speaker 04

  Male, male torta.

• 20:32Dan Pashman?

  The male torta is?

• 20:33Speaker 01

  12 ounces.

• 20:35Dan Pashman?

  12 ounces on the dot.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:38Dan Pashman?

  All right. Time for the female torta.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  10.8. That's discrimination. Hell.

• 20:47Speaker 04

  This is particularly shocking because the woman who made our tortas told us, first of all, she was a woman. Secondly, she told us that she's very, very careful about consistency and thinks that discrimination is a bad thing. So the fact that my torta was smaller than the dance torta demonstrates that perhaps there is some kind of unconscious bias going on here. Or she's just not quite as precise as she thinks she is.

• 21:11Dan Pashman?

  All right, the final one here is the Jewish deli sandwich, hot pastramis.

• 21:14Speaker 04

  Expensive pastrami sandwich.

• 21:17Dan Pashman?

  The $20 pastrami sandwiches.

• 21:19Speaker 04

  Okay, we got our male pastrami here.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  11.7 ounce.

• 21:25Dan Pashman?

  11.7 for the male pastrami. Last one, this is the female Jewish deli sandwich.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  13.7 ounce.

• 21:33Dan Pashman?

  Am I correct, then, that three of our four sandwiches were larger for the female?

• 21:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:39Dan Pashman?

  Well, you know what this means, Laura?

• 21:40Speaker 04

  This is a shocking twist.

• 21:42Dan Pashman?

  Yes.

• 21:42Speaker 04

  That's how I would describe it. What does this mean?

• 21:45Dan Pashman?

  Well, I was gonna say, it means that I gotta take you with me whenever I buy sandwiches.

• 21:47Speaker 04

  I guess so.

• 21:52Dan Pashman?

  Whether or not sandwich sexism is real, one thing's for sure. No one's as consistent as they think they are. Sandwich making is as much art as science. Like, you know when you go to a bar and order a cocktail and the bartender starts measuring out all the ingredients? Doesn't that feel a little lame? I mean, I'm sure just pouring the drink results in inconsistency, and some drinks end up better than others. But I kind of like feeling like my drink, or my sandwich, is its own special snowflake that was made just for me. So I guess what I'm saying is, I'm okay with some inconsistency. But don't be shortchanging the ladies. I did check back with my friend Lauren, the professor I talked to earlier in the show. She confirmed that our findings were not statistically significant with such a small

• 22:37Dan Pashman?

  sample size. No big shock there. But she did have an idea for how to fix that.

• 22:42Speaker 03

  I mean, one thing you might consider doing is upping the sample size by encouraging your listeners to buy two sandwiches and weigh them. One purchased by a male, one purchased by a female. It has to be the same sandwich at the same place, at the same time of day.

• 22:57Dan Pashman?

  Made by the same person.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  Made by the same person, and then submitting the numbers. I'd be happy to rerun some numbers if we had like 30 or 40 pairs.

• 23:08Dan Pashman?

  After this episode first aired and Lauren put that call out, we did get more data. In fact, I got an email from the investigative TV show Inside Edition. Yeah, that's right. They went out and got sandwiches from 17 different places. But the segment never aired because they too found no evidence of sandwich or Chipotle burrito sexism. Some of you wrote in to say that you think other biases may be at play in these situations. A listener named Melissa said, "As a 29-year-old African-American woman, I feel at times I don't get as big or as good a portion as a Caucasian customer would receive. I also feel that while a Caucasian customer could ask for a little more of X on their burrito and not be thought of negatively, I would be perceived as a quote-unquote 'greedy'

• 23:51Dan Pashman?

  black person for making the exact same request." Another listener named Laura wrote, "I've noticed inconsistencies in serving sizes due to the person making your food. Thinner staff give less food in general. Larger workers give out a bit more, and I appreciate it. Check it out when you order a small fries from any fast food restaurant." Does any of this sound familiar to you? Do you have more research to add to our esteemed body of work? If so, drop me a line at [email protected].

• 25:04Dan Pashman?

  This is the two-man gentleman band, friends of the show, love these guys. I do want to add that we reached out to McDonald's, Starbucks, Fico's, and Chosa, and they all either declined to comment for this show or didn't get back to us. My thanks to Laura Anderson, my partner in crime on this week's show. She's the news editor at Grist, which is a very good site where they say they are working toward a planet that doesn't burn and a future that doesn't suck.

• 25:30Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, we'll revisit the time I emceed the second annual Brooklyn Grilled Sandwich SmackDown. Did I talk to the chefs and participants about what constitutes a grilled sandwich while I was there? What do you think? That's coming up. Stick around. Hope you're hungry because it's time for some ads.

• 25:49Dan Pashman?

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• 26:33Dan Pashman?

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• 27:18Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back. It's time now for the Brooklyn Grilled Sandwich SmackDown.

• 27:24Dan Pashman?

  Recently, I was lucky enough to be asked to emceed the second annual Brooklyn Grilled Sandwich SmackDown competition, a fundraising event for the Amazing Garden, which is a beautiful little community garden in Brooklyn, which up until recently was filled with abandoned cars and drug dealers, and now is a beautiful garden with flowers and fruits and vegetables growing. And my friend Ilya Maritz, with whom I worked at NPR, who's now over a reporter at WNYC, he volunteers at the garden, along with many others in the neighborhood. And he asked me if I'd come down and host this fundraiser event. And of course, I was happy to do it, not only because I got some delicious sandwiches, but because it'd be a fun time. So there are three chefs, one from The Good Fork, one from Fort Reno and Palo Santo, and one from Better Being Underground.

• 28:07Dan Pashman?

  They each made two sandwiches, one meat and one vegetarian. And the audience, the people in attendance, were the judges. It was a ton of fun, met a lot of great people, had some very Sporkful-esque conversations about the definition of a grilled sandwich, about the chef's strategies going in, about some of the techniques being used. And here's the tape.

• 28:28Dan Pashman?

  So I'm here in the Amazing Garden with my friend Ilya Maritz, reporter for WNYC. Hey, Ilya.

• 28:32Speaker 06

  Hey, how's it going, Dan?

• 28:33Dan Pashman?

  It's going well. And of course, Ilya and I worked together at the Bryant Park Project back at NPR. We used to share cabs into work at 4:30 in the morning.

• 28:41Speaker 06

  Every little thing that I know about American football, I know from you.

• 28:45Dan Pashman?

  Which is not much, considering how many car rides we had together.

• 28:48Speaker 06

  Pathetically little. Go Pats? I don't know, something like that, yeah. Bill Belichick.

• 28:52Dan Pashman?

  Oh, that's pretty good, actually. So tell me about this. We have, this is the second annual grilled sandwich smackdown, we're gonna call it. We're going with smackdown.

• 29:00Speaker 06

  I think this year's gonna be a little rougher than last. Yeah, it may be a smackdown in the end.

• 29:03Dan Pashman?

  How does it work?

• 29:04Speaker 06

  Okay, so we have three chefs, and they are each designing one meat, one vegetarian sandwich. And these are grilled sandwiches, which is a little different from a hamburger, and it's a little different from a grilled cheese sandwich. This is, this could-

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Would be like grilled arugula or grilled peaches with some cheese and some French bread. It's really delicious. It's sort of like the open air equivalent of a panino, I would say.

• 29:27Dan Pashman?

  I guess I should be clear on the rules since I'm hosting this event, I guess. I'm seeing now grilled sandwich. How much of the sandwich needs to be grilled for it to be legal and binding in this competition?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Oh, Dan, I'm embarrassed to say I haven't even thought about that.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  The bread, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna go with the bread and I would say if the meat is not grilled, you probably shouldn't eat it.

• 29:53Dan Pashman?

  But, but if the meat has been cooked elsewhere, let's say all the ingredients are cooked elsewhere and put into a sandwich and the sandwich as a whole is grilled, are we gonna allow that?

• 30:01Speaker 01

  We're going to this year because, because Chef Jacques Gautier insisted upon it. He has smoked pork butt.

• 30:10Dan Pashman?

  I'm extremely excited about that. Well, thanks so much for having me.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Thanks, Dan. Thanks for doing it.

• 30:14Dan Pashman?

  All right. So I'm here with Sohee Kim, chef from The Good Fork here in Brooklyn. Hi, Sohee.

• 30:18Speaker 04

  Hi there, Dan. Thanks for having us here today.

• 30:21Dan Pashman?

  Thanks for coming. Now you are, now we've all heard of fried green tomatoes. You're doing some grilled green tomatoes here.

• 30:26Speaker 04

  I've never done this before, so you know, I take every opportunity to try something new, right?

• 30:30Dan Pashman?

  You've never done this before?

• 30:31Speaker 04

  Oh, I've never grilled green tomatoes before. I've always fried them. But I thought, why not in a sandwich next, right next to some sweet grilled peaches? I thought nice little tartness from the green tomatoes might complement with the peaches and the rest of the veggie sandwich that I have prepared.

• 30:48Dan Pashman?

  So can you give me a sneak preview? I won't tell anyone else. What is in your veggie sandwich?

• 30:51Speaker 04

  The veggie sandwich actually has a little extra protein by way of tofu and I marinated that. That I won't tell you. And that's gonna be nicely grilled, slathered with a little kimchi mayo that I have prepared today.

• 31:06Dan Pashman?

  You're up against some stiff competition. Of course, it's all, it's all for fun, but I mean, it's still, I mean, come on now, you wanna win, right?

• 31:11Speaker 04

  Well, I think all chefs, I hate to say this, but there's a definite competitive streak in all of us. But today, the day is so nice. My children are gonna come visit us later and it's just gonna be all fun.

• 31:22Dan Pashman?

  One of the things I was thinking about from, from the chef's perspective in this competition is where in the order of sandwiches would you want your sandwiches to be consumed by the audience? There's, you're making two sandwiches. There's six sandwiches total. Would you rather be the first thing people taste or the last thing people taste?

• 31:39Speaker 04

  Interesting. I would like it to be the first.

• 31:43Dan Pashman?

  Why?

• 31:43Speaker 04

  I don't know. There's something about, you know, when you're hungry, you come to an event like this and you know, if all the, if all the flavors are playing together and it comes together, I think they will really remember the first bite of whatever they had.

• 31:55Dan Pashman?

  Thanks. Good luck, Sohee.

• 31:56Speaker 04

  Thank you so much, Dan.

• 31:57Dan Pashman?

  So I'm here with Sherri Drewitt from Better Being Underground. Hi, Sherri.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  How are you?

• 32:01Dan Pashman?

  I'm doing well, thanks. So you have a crew here working on your grilled sandwich for the second annual competition. What, what's your sort of strategy going into the competition?

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Our strategy? Well, we've been, yeah, night and day for the last.

• 32:18Dan Pashman?

  10 minutes?

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're out here to have fun and support the garden.

• 32:23Dan Pashman?

  All right, cool. Better Being Underground is sort of literally and somewhat figuratively an underground establishment.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  It is.

• 32:31Dan Pashman?

  I'm a little disturbed to see you out here in broad daylight like this.

• 32:37Dan Pashman?

  Are you guys okay with this much sunlight?

• 32:38Speaker 01

  It's hard. If I keep my shades on, I'll be all right.

• 32:41Dan Pashman?

  Cool. And so what's, what's on the menu for you guys today? You have a veggie sandwich and a meat sandwich to make.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have a beautiful sandwich. It's grilled squash, kale, manchego cheese, grilled red onions. And then our meat sandwich today is gonna be grilled turkey with mission figs. We're gonna grill them up. We've got grilled radicchio. Gorgonzola sage butter.

• 33:09Dan Pashman?

  Wow, that sounds, that's one of the best kinds of butter.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the secret.

• 33:13Dan Pashman?

  Would you rather have your food be the first thing people taste or the last thing people taste?

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Wow, I'm gonna defer to my chefs. What do you guys think? I would say last because people remember the last meal they had. We wanna give other people a chance to, you know, before they get our food.

• 33:30Dan Pashman?

  How sporting of you.

• 33:33Dan Pashman?

  All right, thanks. Good luck, guys.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Thanks a lot.

• 33:35Dan Pashman?

  So I'm here with Chef Jacques Gautier. Hi, Jacques.

• 33:38Speaker 06

  Hi, how you doing?

• 33:39Dan Pashman?

  Good. Jacques is the chef at Fort Reno and at, wait, I wanna say it right.

• 33:43Speaker 06

  Palo Santo and Fort Reno, both on Union Street between 4th and 5th.

• 33:46Dan Pashman?

  In Fort Reno, you do barbecue there. I noticed that on the menu at Fort Reno, you have fatty brisket, but not lean brisket. Is that because people who want lean brisket don't deserve brisket?

• 33:57Speaker 06

  No, if anybody asks for lean brisket, we're happy to make it. At Palo Santo, we make egg white omelets. We don't advertise the fact because we're kind of ashamed of it.

• 34:07Dan Pashman?

  It's just a secret for people who know?

• 34:08Speaker 06

  Seriously, it's not, it's not a secret. It's more like, you know, hey, man, if you want your steak well done, you want your egg, your omelet egg whites only, you want your brisket trimmed and lean, yeah, no judgment, we'll make it for you. But that's not how I would eat it, you know?

• 34:23Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I find, you know, people consider the word fat to be a dirty word in food. What they don't understand is that when fat gets cooked, it turns into juice, which is a good word.

• 34:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 34:30Dan Pashman?

  Let me just describe to our listeners what, what we have here. Now, this is sort of a bicycle with two wheels in the back. It looks a little bit like a mini rickshaw bike. But instead of there being seats in the back, there is an oil drum laid on its side with the top sliced off and it's turned into a smoker. So it is a bicycle smoker. This is a mobile smoker. Do you drive while cooking?

• 34:54Speaker 06

  No, we, we get to the event and then, and then cook at the event.

• 34:59Dan Pashman?

  And what kind of questions you get driving this thing around, around the town?

• 35:02Speaker 06

  You know, a cabbie kinda cut me off on the way over here and he was like, what do you have ready to go? I was like, no, man, you know, I'm not pedaling on the street. I'm, I'm going to an event and I'm gonna cook at the event.

• 35:15Dan Pashman?

  So he cut you off, then he asked for food?

• 35:17Speaker 06

  He cut me off to try, to try to stop me so he could get some barbecue.

• 35:20Dan Pashman?

  Oh, okay. All right. I guess that's okay. You're up against some stiff competition here. What's, what's your strategy going in here?

• 35:27Speaker 06

  We've got two different sandwiches. A vegetarian portobello mushroom sandwich made with some mole poblano. And then we also have a pulled pork sandwich.

• 35:39Dan Pashman?

  Would you rather be the first thing people taste or the last thing people taste?

• 35:43Speaker 06

  Um, that's a tough question. I don't know. Haven't really thought about that. I think either, either way, I'm, I'm feel pretty good about what we're gonna be serving today.

• 35:53Dan Pashman?

  All right. Good luck today.

• 35:54Speaker 06

  Cheers. Thank you very much.

• 35:59Dan Pashman?

  Now, as I said, the audience for this event are the judges. And so, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't get some, some information from them as we headed into this competition. All right. Hi, what's your name?

• 36:09Speaker 06

  Sam McAfee.

• 36:10Dan Pashman?

  Sam, you're here for the sandwich competition?

• 36:12Speaker 06

  I am, yeah.

• 36:13Dan Pashman?

  Tell me your, your approach going just purely as an eater. You, there are gonna be six different sandwiches served to you, three meat, three vegetarian. What is your strategy going in?

• 36:24Speaker 06

  Uh, I'm starting all meat, definitely all meat. And looking for sweet, looking for salty, looking for perfectly cooked, not too dry. And I wanna get it early in the competition so they're not overcooked and they're not old. You get as fresh as possible. I, I see he's keeping his meat on the grill over here, Jacques, so I wanna make sure to get a nice cut on the sooner side so it doesn't dry out.

• 36:42Dan Pashman?

  That's some good strategy. You, you ought to be listening to this work for more. You're gonna fit right in here. What kinds of things are you judging a grilled sandwich on that make it different from other, other types of sandwiches?

• 36:53Speaker 06

  Well, it's gotta have that grilled flavor. And, and, and if they don't actually apply the grilled flavor to the, to the bread, it's not gonna hit my mouth right, so.

• 37:01Dan Pashman?

  Now, do you feel that the interior components of the sandwich should also be grilled? Or if you make the sandwich basically off the grill and then grill it as a whole, is that still valid?

• 37:13Speaker 06

  You know, that's a, that's a really good question. I actually think, for instance, what's this group over here called?

• 37:19Dan Pashman?

  Better Being Underground?

• 37:20Speaker 06

  Better Being Underground. I saw them grilling their radicchio earlier and I was like, excellent plan. It brings out the flavor. It really, really enhances the sandwich. And then they reassembled it, so I think they have a lot going on.

• 37:31Dan Pashman?

  Did you see Jacques' bike over there?

• 37:33Speaker 06

  I do. I like the bike a lot.

• 37:35Dan Pashman?

  I, but he said that he doesn't cook while driving, which I think is a little bit disappointing. I wish that he would drive around while cooking and just like throw meat from his bicycle like, like so many newspapers or something.

• 37:46Speaker 06

  A 400 degree grill on a bicycle.

• 37:48Dan Pashman?

  How could that go wrong? I don't see how that could possibly result in injury or harm to anyone whatsoever.

• 37:53Speaker 06

  It's a perfect combination.

• 37:56Dan Pashman?

  An open flame and New York City cab drivers.

• 38:02Dan Pashman?

  All right. So I'm here with Catherine and Andres. Hey, guys.

• 38:05Speaker 06

  How are you?

• 38:05Speaker 04

  Hi.

• 38:06Dan Pashman?

  What are some of the things that you think are important for grilled sandwich success?

• 38:10Speaker 06

  I guess I, I tend to be a little picky about the, the bread. I don't like for it to be too big, so I wanna fit the whole thing in my mouth.

• 38:20Dan Pashman?

  You're, you're very concerned with the ratio of bread to filling.

• 38:23Speaker 06

  Yes, but also the type of bread. I like, I like ciabatta bread a lot. I like that crunchiness on the outside, but a little bit soft inside.

• 38:31Dan Pashman?

  Now, I'm with you guys. I, I would say that I like crisp, but I'm not so crazy about crunch. All right. Because if, if the outside of the bread is too hard, especially when in grilled sandwich, the interior ingredients have been, have sauce or if there's melted cheese, they can get slippery. And if the exterior of the bread is too hard and you have to bite down with too much force, you're gonna lose ingredients out the back. Are you with me?

• 38:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, I've done that almost every time.

• 38:56Speaker 06

  Keep a, you know, a fork, a spoon, or a spork around, you know, and uh.

• 39:01Dan Pashman?

  Now, well, you guys, since you guys are part of the judging contingent here, if you are required to use utensils to eat part of one of these sandwiches, do you think that that counts, should count against the sandwich?

• 39:15Speaker 06

  I would, I would say no. I actually say no.

• 39:18Speaker 04

  I mean, I don't usually use utensils even if I need to, so it's not gonna stop me.

• 39:24Dan Pashman?

  That's impressive, Catherine. I like to hear that. That's the kind of attitude we want. I would say that it, to me, that's minus one if you need to use utensils. Because I mean, a sandwich, it was invented by the Earl of Sandwich so that he could eat without silverware, right? And that's what makes it a sandwich, is that you're supposed to be able to eat it with your hands, to me.

• 39:42Speaker 04

  It's more complicated, yeah.

• 39:43Dan Pashman?

  What is your ideal ratio? Give me percentages. Let's get out of the nitty gritty here, Andres. I want to know percentages of bread to sandwich filling in your ideal grilled sandwich.

• 39:52Speaker 06

  I mean, the bread needs to make a statement, so um.

• 39:56Dan Pashman?

  I will grant you, it depends a little bit on the given sandwich, all right? But give me an average here.

• 40:01Speaker 06

  I would say the bread still makes it up to like 40%, and then the filling 60.

• 40:06Dan Pashman?

  Catherine?

• 40:07Speaker 04

  I mean, I'm not really that much of a bread person. I'd like to see a sandwich made without bread. I think that would be a good challenge.

• 40:13Dan Pashman?

  I've done a lot of work in that field, actually.

• 40:15Speaker 04

  Oh, really? So what do you use as bread, bread substitute?

• 40:18Dan Pashman?

  I've got one sandwich, well, I mean, I guess a donut is still sort of bread. But I've made a sandwich with potato pancakes in lieu of bread.

• 40:26Speaker 04

  Oh, that sounds great.

• 40:27Dan Pashman?

  All right, talk to you guys soon.

• 40:28Speaker 04

  Thanks.

• 40:29Dan Pashman?

  Hey, guys, so you are Jesse?

• 40:31Speaker 06

  Jesse, yep.

• 40:32Dan Pashman?

  And Hans? Yes, I am. What are you looking for here? Let's just talk about grilled sandwich philosophy in general here. When you're talking about grilled sandwich as opposed to any generic kind of sandwich, Hans, what are you looking for? Well, I'm looking for a grill primarily. All right, so we've got that. We definitely do. In a grilled sandwich competition, how many of the ingredients themselves do you think should have to be grilled? Like, can you construct a whole sandwich ungrilled and then grill it as a whole? Is that valid? Or do you think interior ingredients should have to be grilled as well? No, they can, it can be grilled like that. I do believe a panini sandwich can be considered a grilled sandwich. And plus, you think about what the heat's gonna do to it, the cheese is gonna melt. Something's gonna get crispier. There's goodness in that, and I consider that grilled, definitely. And Jesse?

• 41:17Speaker 06

  Um, I completely disagree, actually. Um, everything has to be grilled inside. Otherwise, it's kind of just like a sandwich that just got heated up. That's it, yeah.

• 41:24Dan Pashman?

  You're saying everything, everything?

• 41:26Speaker 06

  Basically everything. I mean, let's say you're gonna make like a tomato sandwich with some eggplant, cheese. I mean, it'd be kind of lame if the tomato and eggplant weren't grilled beforehand. It's kind of just be like, I don't know, warmed up sandwich. I don't know, like, basically, I would say 99% of these ingredients have to be grilled inside of it.

• 41:40Dan Pashman?

  It's a bold statement. All right. Messiness is one thing, but if one of the sandwiches requires you to use utensils, would you hold that against the sandwich?

• 41:46Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 41:48Dan Pashman?

  Why?

• 41:48Speaker 06

  It's a sandwich. Hand into mouth. There's, you know, I don't want a fork and a knife. That's not what I eat, a sandwich. I eat a sandwich because I want to use my hands.

• 41:58Dan Pashman?

  I completely agree.

• 41:59Speaker 06

  Good. I'm glad you agree.

• 42:02Dan Pashman?

  The Sporkful is all about strongly held opinions about eating. And so I respect the fact that you're a man of conviction.

• 42:09Speaker 06

  Well, thank you. That's how I like to live my life.

• 42:15Dan Pashman?

  Is Hans not actually a man of conviction?

• 42:17Speaker 06

  At times he can be, but not really. He's pretty much a pushover.

• 42:25Dan Pashman?

  So at this point, the sandwiches have been served. We've all eaten. The sandwiches were amazing. I'll give you my thoughts in just a moment. The one sandwich that was not mentioned in any of what we just heard was Sohee Kim from The Good Fork. She also made what she called a Korean cheesesteak. It was Korean beef with American cheese. Absolutely delicious. She was the one who also had the grilled tomato, grilled peach, and tofu sandwich. Then there were the folks at Better Being Underground. They had the turkey fig gorgonzola butter sandwich and the squash manchego sandwich. And then there was Jacques from Fort Reno and Palo Santo. He had the pulled pork sandwich and the portobello mushroom with mole poblano sandwich. Uh, so that's sort of what we're looking at here.

• 43:09Dan Pashman?

  I circled back with some of the people I spoke to earlier to get their post-meal thoughts. So I'm back here with Sam, who we spoke to before the competition. You've now tried all the sandwiches. What are your thoughts? I was completely surprised with the one I actually loved. Which was? Turkey. The turkey fig radicchio, uh, gorgonzola butter thing, yep. It's delicious. It was the mix of sweet, it was a mix of tender, it was a mix of salty. It had all these flavors on top of it. It just really came together and had a lot of complexity. All right, thanks, Sam. Yes. Hi, how are you?

• 43:41Speaker 07

  I think I could be interviewed.

• 43:43Dan Pashman?

  Okay, what's your name?

• 43:44Speaker 07

  Sam.

• 43:45Dan Pashman?

  So, Sam, um, tell me, which sandwiches have you eaten so far here?

• 43:49Speaker 07

  Um, I've eaten, well, I haven't eaten theirs yet.

• 43:53Dan Pashman?

  The barbecue ones, you haven't eaten those yet?

• 43:55Speaker 07

  No. But, um, I've eaten their tofu one and I've eaten theirs. I forgot what it was called, the Better Being.

• 44:04Dan Pashman?

  What do you like about grilled sandwiches?

• 44:06Speaker 07

  Um, I like them because, well, I like grilled things. So, um, I really like grilled challah, how challah is sometimes grilled. So, because, um, since we're Jewish, we celebrate Rosh Hashanah.

• 44:23Dan Pashman?

  And speaking of challah and Rosh Hashanah, which do you think, which do you like better with honey, apples or challah?

• 44:29Speaker 07

  I don't know, maybe both.

• 44:31Dan Pashman?

  Have you ever made a sandwich with apples and honey on challah?

• 44:35Speaker 07

  No.

• 44:36Dan Pashman?

  Are you gonna do that now?

• 44:37Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:37Dan Pashman?

  Sam, you are a smart young man. How old are you?

• 44:40Speaker 07

  Um, I am eight.

• 44:41Dan Pashman?

  You're way ahead of your time, buddy. Keep up the good work.

• 44:43Speaker 07

  Okay, thank you.

• 44:45Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's make our way over here to Catherine and Andres, who were standing up when I met them, and they're now sitting down. A little less pep in your step after that feast. Catherine, what are your thoughts?

• 44:55Speaker 04

  It was a lot of food, but it was really good.

• 44:58Dan Pashman?

  What were the highlights for you?

• 45:00Speaker 04

  Um, I really liked the pork. I was, I was looking forward to that, and it.

• 45:04Dan Pashman?

  So you were our Kentucky representative, our southern rep here, who knows, Good Barbecue, from Good Barbecue, and you, your highlight was the pulled pork sandwich?

• 45:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, I really liked it. It met my criteria, and the Latin American influences were great, too. The mole on the mushroom burger, that was awesome. I loved the spice. It was really good.

• 45:24Dan Pashman?

  Andres?

• 45:25Speaker 06

  I'm just not gonna say how many, uh, pulled pork sliders I ate.

• 45:29Dan Pashman?

  You know, I was noticing that, I keep looking over to see when they're gonna put more out. And every time I look over here, there aren't any more out, and I guess now I know where they all went.

• 45:37Speaker 06

  Some of them.

• 45:39Speaker 04

  And it's the reason why we're sitting right here next to the grill now.

• 45:42Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, well, that's one of the things I talk about in the Sporkful a lot, which is that any time you're dealing with food being brought out of a kitchen or brought out of an area, you want to find the source. And you want to locate yourself near the source so that you know when fresh supplies are being brought out. You obviously already knew that.

• 45:55Speaker 04

  Oh, exactly. We've been getting them as they came out.

• 45:58Speaker 06

  I'm done, by the way, eating the sliders, so there should be more coming out soon.

• 46:02Dan Pashman?

  So there's less competition for me now, is that what you're telling me? All right, good.

• 46:05Speaker 06

  I don't, personally don't like tofu a lot, but the tofu, uh, sandwich was really great, too.

• 46:10Dan Pashman?

  I liked that one, although, I mean, I liked the flavors. I'll tell you what my issue with that one was, which was the tomatoes were sliced, like tomato slices, they're flat, but the peaches were sliced into wedges. And what happens there when you have a wedge laid into a sandwich, that as you bite into it, the wedge necessarily kind of slides away, it does not sit still for you. And I was very excited to have the experience of the grilled peach and grilled tomato together in the same bite, and I couldn't do it. I couldn't get them together because of that wedge formation. Did you guys have that trouble?

• 46:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, I had the same problem. I just ended up picking them both up with my hands and shoving them in my mouth. But it was really good. That was probably my favorite vegetarian sandwich.

• 46:51Dan Pashman?

  Maybe I should go back and do it by hand. You know, I feel like it is a mark of the sandwich that you shouldn't have to do that, but at the same time, I'm excited about that flavor combination, so maybe I just need to go back and, and just get dirty. Andres?

• 47:02Speaker 06

  I mean, to be fair, I think, you know, there's a calculation here that I think wasn't, wasn't made by, I mean, all of the sandwiches were great. I think all of the teams did an amazing job. But they had to be cut into pieces for people, and then things started just falling off of the sandwiches. And I think that was a problem across the board.

• 47:20Dan Pashman?

  I see. Oh, excuse me, guys. I see that more pulled pork sandwiches just came out. All right, hang on, timeout. I'm taking pieces of pork off the serving tray, which fell out of my sandwich, just for the record. It's one of the interesting ethical quandaries that's come up here in this meal, which is, so the chefs periodically put out a couple of sandwiches. And as you said, some of them had to be cut, and little pieces of the sandwiches are falling out and landing on the serving tray. Now, I want every piece of the roast pork that may ever have been associated with my sandwich, right? But, you know, we're in mixed company here, and, you know, this is a public event. We don't know each other. So, you know, you feel a little bit less bold about picking pieces of food up off the serving tray, but not that much less bold. Am I right?

• 48:00Speaker 04

  I felt, yeah, I don't know anyone here. They're not gonna, maybe they will judge me, but I might not see them again, so it's fine. I was eating with my hands the whole time.

• 48:10Dan Pashman?

  And did you pick up any pieces of stray meat or veggies off of a serving tray with your hands?

• 48:14Speaker 04

  Um, I didn't do that, just off of my own plate.

• 48:17Dan Pashman?

  Because I did that?

• 48:19Speaker 04

  If it was the pork, I would have done that, yeah.

• 48:21Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so I'm okay? I'm in the clear?

• 48:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's fine.

• 48:25Dan Pashman?

  Andres, what do you feel about the etiquette in that situation when you have, like, if I'm picking up a pork sandwich off the serving tray, and a big juicy piece of pork falls out of it as it's moving to my plate and lands back on the serving tray, can I pick up that piece of pork with my hands and put it in my mouth?

• 48:40Speaker 06

  I'm trying to think why not, and I can't, I can't come up with an answer.

• 48:49Dan Pashman?

  So when all was said and done, the winner for best meat sandwich was The Good Fork. They had the Korean cheesesteak, the Korean beef with the American cheese, which was outstanding. Best vegetarian sandwich went to Better Being Underground for their squash manchego sandwich. Between those two, the Korean cheesesteak took home the overall title. Uh, I thought they were all outstanding. Uh, my personal vote, though, would have gone to the pulled pork for outstanding overall sandwich. I just thought that one really, weirdly was amazing, but, but I'm a little biased because I happen to just love pulled pork. Uh, my thanks to Ilya Maritz, my old friend from NPR and WNYC for having me. Uh, congrats to The Amazing Garden on a great event. Thanks to folks from The Good Fork, Fort Reno, Palo Santo, and Better Being Underground

• 49:30Dan Pashman?

  for also volunteering their time and food and efforts and cooking me some damn good food. That was awesome. And thank you to everyone who came out and everyone who joined in to make this week's podcast so much fun. I'm Dan Pashman, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 49:55Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by

• 49:57Speaker 04

  Gianna Palmer.

• 49:58Dan Pashman?

  The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer

• 50:02Speaker 04

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 50:03Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer

• 50:04Speaker 05

  Andres O'Hara.

• 50:05Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Sirius XM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, if you want to hear new episodes of The Sporkful ad-free, subscribe to Sirius XM Podcast Plus on Apple Podcasts, or visit siriusxm.com/podcastsplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

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