Hari Dreams Of Donuts (Reheat)

When comedian Hari Kondabolu isn't delivering incisive jokes about politics and identity, he's dreaming of being locked inside a magical bakery. Plus, Hari tells us why you shouldn't ask him about Indian food, and shares his take on whether famous Simpsons food scenes with Apu are racist or not.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  Make holiday hosting effortless with Boars Head Sweet Slice Uncured Ham. It's the perfect centerpiece for gathering family and friends around the holiday table. Hand-packed into netting, Sweet Slice Uncured Ham has the look of a traditional holiday ham with rich flavor worth savoring. Slow-roasted and delicately smoked, boneless Sweet Slice Uncured Ham delivers classic bone-in flavor made for the moments that bring everyone together. Find Sweet Slice Uncured Ham at your nearest Boars Head deli. And for holiday entertaining inspiration, recipes, and more, visit boarshead.com. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now, Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home.

• 0:42Dan Pashman?

  There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:03Dan Pashman?

  Hey there, Dan here with another Sporkful reheat for you. This one features a conversation taped live onstage with comedian Hari Kandibolu, who is this guy, he's thoughtful, he's hilarious, he's insightful. And I spoke with him in the months after the release of his documentary, The Problem with Apu, which delved into some of the problematic aspects of that Simpsons character, the ways that it played up racial stereotypes. So we got into that. We also covered a lot of other ground, including a recurring dream that Hari used to have when he was a kid, where he was locked in a bakery overnight by himself, surrounded by donuts, cupcakes, pies, Napoleons. So you're gonna hear about that too, and more. Now, as always, if there's an episode of the Sporkful you want us to pull out of the deep freezer, please let us know. Send me an email or a voice memo to [email protected].

• 1:45Dan Pashman?

  Tell me your name, where you are, what episode you want us to reheat, and why. Thanks so much, and enjoy my conversation with Hari Kondabolu.

• 1:54Dan Pashman?

  This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And we're coming to you live from the Bell House in Brooklyn, New York.

• 2:26Dan Pashman?

  That was great. I told you we didn't need to practice.

• 2:30Dan Pashman?

  Joining me now is a stand-up comedian whose work I have loved for so many years. He's smart, and silly, and incisive, and he manages to get into some pretty deep issues of identity and politics with an ever-loosing sight of the fact that he's a comedian. Last fall, his documentary, The Problem with a Pooh, all about the Simpsons character, got a ton of attention. We'll talk about that a little later. His new stand-up special debuts on Netflix, May 8th. It's called Warn Your Relatives. Please welcome Hari Kondabolu.

• 3:13Dan Pashman?

  Great to see you, Hari.

• 3:14Speaker 01

  It's good to see you, Dan.

• 3:14Dan Pashman?

  Thanks so much for being here. Is your mic in a comfortable place for you?

• 3:18Speaker 01

  No, not at all. Shall I adjust it?

• 3:20Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. You actually, beforehand, they said to me, they were like, "This guest you're having, can he hold his own microphone?"

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Oh, can I do that? Am I allowed?

• 3:28Dan Pashman?

  Will you be more comfortable? Sure, do that, yeah. I mean, you've held a microphone before. Is that better?

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. This is how my people do it. Comedians.

• 3:38Dan Pashman?

  Right, no.

• 3:42Dan Pashman?

  So Hari, let's get right into it. I want to jump right into the most pressing issues of our time. You recently did a Grub Street Diet. Now, Grub Street, for folks not in the New York area, it's a food website in New York, and they do a Grub Street Diet thing where they have a notable person write about everything they eat for a week, and I always love it. It's a great insight into all different people. You wrote in there that you used to have dreams about being locked in a bakery overnight and eating everything.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:13Dan Pashman?

  And then like you just stopped, like I wanted the rest of the article to be about that. Like, walk me through the dream, Hari, and don't leave it, don't leave out any details.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would have gotten locked in a bakery, and then I would have gone and eaten various baked goods.

• 4:25Dan Pashman?

  What baked goods?

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, we're talking, donuts, cupcakes, uh, full cakes, pies, uh, Napoleons. Uh, also, sometimes in the dreams, it wasn't just one particular, it wa, it was like, you'd have like stuff from a Mexican bakery and an Italian bakery and like all these different cultures bakeries in one magical bakery.

• 4:49Dan Pashman?

  And, and all the food was, well, there's good stuff, everything was really good?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Well, I was happy in the dream, you know, I was very content. I mean, at the end of the day, it all had sugar in it, so, you know, it was great. God, Matt, you know, the thing is, some dreams I wish I still had, and that's one I wish I still had.

• 5:05Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  That ended with childhood, but why should it? I mean, I still have, okay, here's the thing, so, there's a, there's a New Zealand pie shop in my neighborhood called Dub Pies, I get free coffee there because I mention them in podcasts and things like that, but...

• 5:26Speaker 01

  But I found out, like, you know, and this is true with all bakeries or any place, if you go at a certain time of day when they're about to get rid of them, you know, they either hand them out to people or throw them out. So there was a stretch post, uh, post a bad breakup, where I was going there on the regular, because I knew which baristas were working when, and I knew like when to go to get like a couple of free scones and a few donuts, um, and a few stomach aches later, and again, the realization that when you're in your early to mid 30s, that weight does not go away. That breakup weight is permanent, well, it, it does go away, but it requires you to eat healthy and exercise, but like...

• 6:02Dan Pashman?

  So what you're saying is that it doesn't go away?

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Right, exactly, it's not like before, where I'm like, hey, it'll just somehow go away, and I don't know why it will, it just will, and then it's like, wait a second, I can't eat dessert? Like, lunch dessert isn't a real concept?

• 6:17Dan Pashman?

  So, do you find that you eat more decadently when things aren't going well in your romance life?

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Decadent is a nice way of putting it. Yeah, I think, I think, I think a lot of people are like that. I think, I've heard people who, after a really bad heartbreak, they don't eat, they have the other issue, and they lose a lot of weight. For me, I end up being like a binge eater. Like, immediately it feels good to like, "Ah, sugar, I'm in control of this! Look at me!" I mean, it's a good thing. I mean, if it's alcohol or drugs, I'd be dead right now. So luckily, it's sugar. I mean, that's something that will kill me in the long run.

• 6:56Dan Pashman?

  You recently tweeted, "I just had papaya, thinking it was mango, and now I'm devastated."

• 7:03Speaker 01

  You know, man, I don't think I'd ever, I don't think I'd ever eaten papaya before. I don't know, maybe I assumed I had and I hadn't, and I was in Hawaii, and somebody had this, like, what I thought were, like, mangoes they've gotten from their yard, and they're like, "Do you want some of this?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I want some of this." So I thought it was a mango. And he opened it up, and I'm like, "This is no mango." And I felt bad, because he opened up this fruit and gave me half, so I can't not try to eat it. So I ate some of it, and, um, and then I, when the person walked out of the room, I, I left. And I left the papaya there, because I'm not gonna eat that, man. It's, it's like, it's a fake-ass mango.

• 7:47Dan Pashman?

  But why were you devastated?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Because mangoes are like, you know, they're ambrosia, they're the nectar of the gods. Like, why would I... Papaya? What is that?

• 7:57Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, no, look, you'll get in an argument for me. Clearly mangoes run circles around papayas. But I wonder if part of your disappointment was disappointment with yourself, Hari.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  What do you, how, how do you, uh...

• 8:08Dan Pashman?

  Well, I mean, as I understand it, the mango is especially revered in, in India.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:15Dan Pashman?

  I have heard tell of the mangoes there.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Throughout South Asia, yes.

• 8:18Dan Pashman?

  Absolutely extraordinary, and so, for you to not be able to recognize a mango...

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Mangoes don't look all the same. Each of, like, depending on the country, they have, they, they look different, they have different textures.

• 8:32Dan Pashman?

  I don't know, they look all the same to me.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Oh, here, here, we're getting into the racial analysis now, aren't we?

• 8:42Speaker 01

  I guess from now on, I might say that, like, you know, it's the difference between mangoes and papayas. It's apples and oranges. Nobody will know what I'm talking about.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  But god, that was so upsetting. It was so hard on the inside. It wasn't soft and juicy. It was really unbearable and it made me very upset. And I tweeted something and there was a lot of other people who had similar stories. And it was really nice to know that I could share something personal and have other people resonate with it. And, because they've been through the same kind of tragic circumstances.

• 9:14Dan Pashman?

  Right. What about the foods you ate growing up? I mean, I was interested in reading up to note that you didn't want to bring Indian food to school. You brought, you went to Burger King all the time. You guys ate beef.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:28Dan Pashman?

  How did that come to be?

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Well, it was interesting. Like, I remember, because, you know, we were raised Hindu, but I didn't know beef was against the rules till I met other Hindu kids. In like the fourth or fifth grade, like, "What are you doing?" And I'm like, "I'm eating this hamburger." It's like, "Don't you know that's against the whole thing?" And I'm like, "I was not told of this growing up." I had no idea. I didn't know beef came from a cow, none of it. I was just, "This is good." My mom was a big fan of, like, she wanted us to be American. And she didn't, like, in terms of, like, being raised religious or whatever, Hindu, it was more like, get the moral lessons out of it. I know enough people that don't eat beef that are awful human beings. She probably knows people who eat beef who are horrible human beings, too. I don't think beef is a key factor in that.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  But that, I mean, which is the point, like, you know, whether or not you eat beef is irrelevant. Like, if you're, if you're not eating beef and you're terrible, I'd rather you get the bigger moral lessons and do what you want. And also, I think she wanted us to fit in. And I think for her fitting in meant eating terrible American fast food. So, we went to Burger King at a very young age and we ate a lot of fast food growing up. And, yeah, I mean, she, my mom, it was really, and I think still, is kind of caught in this place that I think a lot of immigrants are caught between, especially when you're a parent. You want your kids to know what their culture is, right? As defined by how they Grew up and at the same time you want your kid to fit and you want your kid to be part of this country,

• 10:55Speaker 01

  the country that they're part of and that's what my mom was kind of stuck in the middle of. So, you know, she made South Indian food every night, but me and my brother didn't want to eat that. So we had our own meals. We'd have macaroni or spaghetti or whatever else, even though like my friends, you know, as I got older, high school and college in particular, like, why are you not eating this amazing food that your mother is making? And to me it was like, what do you mean? It's Indian food. Don't you guys want macaroni? It's craft. Like, it's like, you don't even know that you have something special in front of you because it's like beaten into you not to be weird, don't be different, that you just, you don't. I didn't want to partake, yeah.

• 11:36Dan Pashman?

  Because I wonder, this is something I was thinking about in getting ready for us to chat, was that it struck me that on one hand, it sounds like in some ways you had a, you're, certainly in the food realm, you're fairly assimilated.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:51Dan Pashman?

  It's interesting to me then that that identity would become such a big part of your work.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 11:58Dan Pashman?

  Maybe this is my ignorance, but like I would have assumed, I would have expected that a person who would be inspired or motivated to follow such a career path would be someone who had grown up more in a traditional Indian environment and then had felt more of a tension when going quote unquote, out into the wider world.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  I mean, I grew up in New York and in New York there's, it really is integration as opposed to assimilation. I think assimilation is when I become you and I have to become you. Integration is, these are my pieces, these are your pieces and what works for both of us. And I think that's New York and I don't say that in a very like romantic way. I think that's just the truth. So when I would go to other places, whether, you know, I went to college in Maine and then I, you know, as a touring comedian, you start to realize that, okay, like everyone else doesn't see that. They don't see me as having a unique story that fits neatly into the fabric of this country. They see me as the other. And so, you know, just because I like to eat, you know,

• 13:04Speaker 01

  pizza and hamburgers doesn't mean that I've given up all dignity. You know, and a sense of self and a sense of like what I believe and, and who my parents are and, and you know, I, I see those dynamics and tensions.

• 13:27Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, my conversation with Hari Kondabolu continues. Why does he find it offensive when white people he's just met ask him to recommend a good Indian restaurant? We'll discuss. And we'll get into this Simpsons controversy. We play a game called, is this food racist? Apoo edition. Stick around.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  And now, a delicious word from our sponsors.

• 14:08Dan Pashman?

  When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food, they also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done, the odors and stains have to be tackled, and I want to feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes, and then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there. And All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself, it lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house, we're very happy with it, and let me tell you, family

• 14:50Dan Pashman?

  of four, two teenagers, we do a lot of laundry, so we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear, All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day. You put a lot of love into the things you send during the holidays. It's baked with love, carefully packed with love, or shipped with love right from home. Because what you're sending isn't just what's inside the box, it's the time, thought, and care you put into it. And this holiday season, the United States Postal Service is delivering your love to more addresses in America than anyone else. So send it with love, send it with USPS. The United States Postal Service. Learn more at USPS.com/holiday.

• 15:38Dan Pashman?

  There's nothing quite like Aruba. The white sand beaches are truly unlike anything you've seen. But what really stands out is the food. Because Aruba's not like other Caribbean islands. French pastries, Spanish paella, Peruvian barbecue, papardelle that has no business being that good that far from Florence. Not to mention the local fare. Aruba's food scene pulls you in with its astonishing variety of cuisines and beyond satisfies you with its unexpected flavors. So plan your escape to culinary delight at aruba.com. Your taste buds will thank you.

• 16:11Dan Pashman?

  For a long time, I did not understand the point of vests. Like, why not just have a jacket? That covers your arms, too. But something clicked for me. I think I got gifted a vest and now I am obsessed with vests. And it just adds that little bit of toastiness. And I got this new Quince packable puffer vest. I love that you can just squish it up and shove it in the bottom of your bag. That way you have it with you all day. If it gets a little chilly, break out the vest. I also got a Quince down quilted vest. It is so soft and cozy. They make them for men and women. And as with everything you get at Quince, they focus on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. These are all timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 16:54Dan Pashman?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the Sporkful. It's the best way to support the show.

• 17:22Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to another Sporkful reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. And just a couple of weeks ago, I got back from my tour of Italy with Culinary Backstreets. And man, it was even more incredible than I expected. We ate spaghetti a la Sassina. Actually, two different restaurants back to back so we could really taste test the difference. We went to Le Cè, all the way down on the tippy-tip, southern-eastern, farthest, most point of Italy. Not a lot of tours take you there, but we did. And we had so much fun. In fact, it was such a huge Success, then we're doing it again in 2025. The folks at Culinary Backstreets now are teaming up to do another tour, retracing the steps that I went to for my research trip for Anything's Possible. You'll eat Spaghetti a La Sessina, you'll hang up a Silvestro Silva story and cook together in Leche, you'll eat in Rome with Katy Parla. And hey, this is a good gift, okay? Why don't you go ahead and buy it right now?

• 18:07Dan Pashman?

  Surprise that special someone this Christmas or Hanukkah. Space is limited. If you want to come on the tour in November 2025, head over to sporkful.com/events for the link. Again, that's sporkful.com/events. Hope to see you there. Now, back to my conversation with comedian Hari Kandibolu. And a quick warning, there's a tiny bit of profanity about halfway through this segment in our Apu game. Speaking of which, Hari's gotten a lot of attention recently for his documentary, The Problem with Apu on True TV. It takes issue with the Simpsons character, Apu. The character's been voiced for decades by a white actor, Hank Azaria, using a pretty stereotypical accent that essentially mocks South Asian immigrants.

• 18:51Dan Pashman?

  In the film, Hari talks about how much he loves The Simpsons, how influential it's been to him as a comic. He also talks about what it was like to grow up in America when Apu was the best-known South Asian character on TV.

• 19:03Speaker 03

  The Simpsons stereotypes all races. Problem is, we didn't have any other representation. Cabby, cabby, cabby, deli, deli.

• 19:15Speaker 03

  Doctor.

• 19:15Speaker 04

  You know that a white guy does the voice?

• 19:17Speaker 03

  A white guy doing an impression of a white guy making fun of my father. How do you feel about that?

• 19:25Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm making a movie about how much I dislike it. Right away, they were like, can you do an Indian voice? And how offensive can you make it? I went, I immediately began to talk this way. I was like, it's not tremendously accurate. It's a little stereotype. Like, that's all right.

• 19:38Speaker 05

  They want the accent to sound like this, and they want your tongue to be really pulled back. So Patain King was going into a room and having to do that exact thing in front of people like a monkey.

• 19:51Speaker 05

  There are accents.

• 19:52Dan Pashman?

  That by their nature to, um, white Americans, sound funny, period. It's funny because it's racist. Just a few weeks ago, The Simpsons responded. They had a scene in an episode where Marge was trying to take an old children's book and make it inoffensive for 2018. She talked with Lisa about it. Well, what am I supposed to do? It's hard to say. Something that started decades ago and was applauded and inoffensive is now politically incorrect. What can you do? Some things will be dealt with at a later date. If at all. At that moment, Lisa looks to her nightstand, where there's a photo of a poo.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  One, to have Lisa say that is stunning because Lisa would have taken my side, there's no doubt. And Homer takes the other side of it, like Lisa doesn't do that. Lisa is always on the side of, like, for so many people.

• 20:48Dan Pashman?

  She's like super social justice warrior.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, she was the original. Like, she's OG social justice warrior in America. That's the one everyone's, she's the annoying one who always says the thing that they read compared to the other people who are just basing it on, like, blind assumptions and stereotypes. Like, she is totally one of us who's critical and is questioning things.

• 21:08Dan Pashman?

  I always remember that Lisa subscribed to Junior Skeptic Magazine.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Right, it's like, why on earth? Would she look into the camera and say that, like, what can we do?

• 21:18Dan Pashman?

  So what did you think of their response? How did you feel about it?

• 21:22Speaker 01

  I thought, to me, you know, I think it shows the nature of white fragility. Like, there's a bunch of white people in a room, mostly older white men. They didn't like someone questioning The Simpsons for the first time in 28 years. Instead of ignoring it or having a nuanced portrayal, they basically said, "We heard you, we don't care, go to hell." That's lazy writing. As someone who's influenced by that show, that's lazy writing. As someone who, that is not a Simpsons response. If The Simpsons actually, like, were on the side of everything's politically incorrect, they wouldn't be The Simpsons. I learned to criticize popular culture by watching The Simpsons. Criticizing The Simpsons is the ultimate Simpsons move.

• 22:06Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  So, you know.

• 22:07Dan Pashman?

  And the thing that always bothered me, I mean, even me, in addition to everything that you point out in the film, is like, on top of all that... The Apu joke is just a hacky joke.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  It's so hacky.

• 22:19Dan Pashman?

  Like, it is so hacky to just be like, we're gonna give this, the Indian convenience store owner, the classic trope, Indian convenience store accent.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Which they acknowledge is happy in the movie, if you saw it, like, there's a part where, Mike Reese, who's one of the original Simpsons writers, who was there when that character was created, he was originally supposed to be called Clerk. He wasn't supposed to be Indian, he was just called Clerk. Hank Azaria, for whatever reason, did an Indian accent, it got laughs in the room, but in the notes it said, "Do not use an Indian accent, that's a comedy cliche." So they were well aware it was hacky. Like, it's, people are saying that, like, oh, you have an issue with it. Now, they had an issue with it then, like, it's hacky, it's not interesting, it's, and also Hank Azaria acknowledged, "It's not even a good impression." And it's too late for him to change now, because that's the hacky impression he used back then. So, I don't know, at the end of the day, you're allowed to criticize art.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  It's important, it's part of what you do when you make art, you get criticized, you criticize art. And I also, I'm hoping I don't need to talk about The Simpsons ever again.

• 23:20Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 23:26Dan Pashman?

  Does that mean we should skip this game we were gonna play?

• 23:28Speaker 01

  No, let's play the game, let's play the game.

• 23:31Dan Pashman?

  So, I will do my best to ensure that Noel will never ask you to talk about it again. But first,

• 23:37Dan Pashman?

  now we're gonna play, "Is This Food Racist? Apu Edition."

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:41Dan Pashman?

  Okay, ready?

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:43Dan Pashman?

  In the Simpsons episode, Homer and Apu, Homer gets sick when he eats tainted meat that Apu sold him. Apu had crossed out the expiration date on the package so he could still sell it. Is that racist?

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's saying that it... No, it's not racist. It's not racist? No.

• 23:59Dan Pashman?

  She says it...

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Do you usually have the audience to yell at your guests and tell them what is or is not racist?

• 24:04Dan Pashman?

  No, I was actually only asking Hari. But it's interesting to me that a white person in the audience thinks it's not racist because this is the one on my list that seemed the most obviously racist.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're basically saying that Indian shopkeep, and that's already the stereotype, there's a lot of Indian-like shopkeepers, are devious, will do whatever it takes to make an extra buck, right? And that's part of the thing, you know? Because there's no other also brown characters on the show, really. And later there was Manjula, who doesn't have much of a voice, and eight kids, because, you know, India, a million people.

• 24:38Dan Pashman?

  Right, it paints him as being this shady character.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is how people feel about the immigrant shopkeeper. They're cheating, they're hiding something, they're in it for money, they don't speak English, they do whatever they have to do.

• 24:49Dan Pashman?

  Next one. The Quickie Mart is known for selling milk for $12, quote-unquote, "surprisingly expensive penny candy," and chocolates on Valentine's Day for $100. Is that racist?

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the same thing. It's like the idea of gouging, right? Like, this is also an issue that often comes up with Korean shop owners and stuff. Like, "How come you charge so much? You're charging this ridiculous amount of money, you're trying to rip us off." And it's racialized in that way, as opposed to like, I don't know, maybe they're shitty business people because they're shitty business people. Maybe the rent is really high. Like, I don't really know the things, but none of those things get factored in.

• 25:25Dan Pashman?

  All right, last one. In the Simpsons episode Lisa the Vegetarian, Apu reveals that, in keeping with his vegetarianism, the hot dogs at the Quickie Mart are actually tofu dogs, and nobody has ever noticed. Is that racist?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  No, he's a clever vegetarian.

• 25:41Dan Pashman?

  But isn't that its own kind of deception?

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's a different kind of deception. It's finding some way to be consistent and still have to survive versus like, "I'm gonna rip these people off just to rip them off." It's not to say it's not deception, but it's certainly not the same as, "I'm being devious and I'm gonna even potentially make you sick to make an extra buck."

• 26:00Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:02Dan Pashman?

  Well, I hope the people who haven't seen the documentary will check it out. It is great.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  I think so. And so do all, like, according to Rotten Tomatoes, 90% of the reviews.

• 26:10Dan Pashman?

  Very good.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  As a result, of course, of white liberal guilt and not because I earned it. That's the only reason.

• 26:21Dan Pashman?

  Here's another one that I was very curious to chat with you about. And this, you know, when I talk, especially when we get into these conversations of food and culture and identity and with people of color, there's a couple of frustrations that I have heard expressed from multiple guests that we've had on this world full. One is the whole issue of like, when people meet you and say, "Where are you from?"

• 26:45Dan Pashman?

  And then the other one is when people relatively quickly in getting to meet you want to talk about Indian food.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 26:54Dan Pashman?

  The "where are you from?" one, I can very easily wrap my brain around why that's offensive, because it suggests like that you must, that you're somehow not American or less American.

• 27:06Dan Pashman?

  And I can understand if someone literally walks up to you and says, "Hey, nice to meet you, I love chicken tikka masala too."

• 27:13Dan Pashman?

  That's, that's a little weird and reductive. But, but I do, I will be, if I'm being honest, I will say that sometimes when I meet a person of color, especially because I'm passionate about food, that is an area where I look for common ground. It's not the very first thing out of my mouth.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  That's key.

• 27:33Dan Pashman?

  But, but it's also, it's also not, like, it's also not necessarily, I will admit that sometimes I direct the conversation there quickly because it's something that I know that I feel comfortable talking about and think that it's an area of common ground. So I don't necessarily exactly wait for it to come up organically.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  What would you talk to me about? Like, if you were in that situation and you want to bring it up, what would you bring up? Give me like an example.

• 27:56Dan Pashman?

  Well, let's say we were chatting a little bit, "Oh, where'd you grow up? Oh, you grew up in Queens?"

• 27:59Speaker 01

  I grew up in Queens, New York.

• 28:00Dan Pashman?

  "Oh, man, there's so much great food in Queens."

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, Queens has a great range of food.

• 28:04Dan Pashman?

  I, uh, I hear, I love to get, uh, Indian food in Queens. You know a good place where I can get some Indian food?

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Now, at this point, a joke is forming in my head for a future show.

• 28:17Dan Pashman?

  Oh, good, good.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  As this is happening, I'm breaking down all the steps, thinking of the possible punchlines. Because if I was in that situation, let's say I liked food, and, one, Dan Pashman, I have to figure out, what kind of white is that?

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Okay, what kind of white is that? And is he a white that's been here a long time? Or is he a white that just got here? What's, what are his fractions? A third from Ireland, a fourth from here, a sixth from there, whatever. I gotta, I gotta go through all that. I have to like break down all that stuff. And at the same time, I have no interest in doing it.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  But like, so, so I have to do all that to get somewhere. For you, it's like a color assumption. Let's move, I'm hungry. So it's a, now the thing is, well, first of all, most Indian food, when people talk about is North Indian food, right? We're South Indian. Nobody knows what that means. It's only like over a billion people in a place, but whatever.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  And, and also it's strange, like, what are you getting? American food? Oh, so you're getting grips? No, you're getting Indian clam chowder? No. It's like, what? Those are completely different. But it's all, it's, it's not all the same, right? Regionally, it makes no sense whatsoever. So to me, it's like, my favorite type of quote-unquote Indian food is South Indian breakfast food. And so if I start naming South Indian breakfast food places and you did not know what that was, it's like, man, I don't know what the hell this guy's talking about. I just wanna know, where is the best chicken tikka masala? Where is the best chicken mukney? Or something else that has minimal flavor and minimal spice? Like, at what point, you know what I mean? The number of assumptions that go into it are kind of like, whoa, that's a lot of assumptions.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Like, um, like I know more about like food in coastal Maine than I probably do about Indian food 'cause I went to college in Maine. And I wish I didn't know as much about food in coastal Maine, but like...

• 30:15Dan Pashman?

  But can you, can you under, I, that, that, that makes sense. And I understand why there's a reductive element to that. A, a white person who you meet in an interaction, like, yes, it may be clumsy. And yes, in a perfect world, they, they wouldn't necessarily jump to conclusions. But at the end of the day, their intention is still to find common ground with you, to try to demonstrate to you that they have some basic respect and appreciation and knowledge of your culture. And that they want to connect with you on that basis. And it seems to me like that's imperfect, but it's still a positive intent.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  I get the positive intent, but it immediately has to other me. You immediately have to put me as different from you in certain fundamental ways before you know for sure. I'll get into any conversation with anybody, but like, there's so many things we have in common that we should get through first without the assumptions. Like, you know, I've been to parties where the first thing I get is, where are you from? As opposed to, what is your name? How, who do you know at this party? Where did you grow up? Often, especially in certain like, levels of class and stuff. Where did you go to college? There's so many things there that we can break down. It just means, hello, I'm nice, I'm not gonna hurt you, let's talk, what do we have in common?

• 31:36Speaker 01

  And I will say, as a person of color, and this is somebody who tours the country, I think, will they hurt me? It's a realistic thing. So I'd like, that's my first, like, are we friends? And that situation, the food question actually, is like, whoa. They're just using me for information.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Hari Kondabolu's documentary, The Problem with Apu, is on the True TV website and app and all the streaming places. Before you make your mind up on the issue, watch it. And a couple of updates on the controversy. Just hours after we taped this show, Hank Azaria, who voices Apu, said he watched Hari's film, and it made a real impression on him. And he said he'd be willing to step aside and have someone else do the voice. In response, Hari tweeted, "Thank you, Hank Azaria. I appreciate what you said and how you said it." But a few days after that, Simpsons creator Matt Groening basically gave Hari the finger when he said, quote, "People love to pretend they're offended." So, it continues. Some more promotional info.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  Hari and his brother Ashok host the hilarious podcast, The Kondabolu Brothers. It's available wherever we get this podcast. It is so, so good. And finally, Hari-

• 32:54Dan Pashman?

  His new stand-up special, Worry Your Relatives, debuts on Netflix May 8. Check it out. This show is produced by Anne Sandy and me. Peter Clowney is our editor. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Jenny Rattlin. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman. And I'm Cindy Elder from Lincoln, Nebraska, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 33:30Dan Pashman?

  One quick update. In early 2020, Hank Azaria announced that he decided he'd no longer voice Apu. As of this recording, no one has been cast to replace Azaria. And in fact, Apu hasn't uttered a single word on The Simpsons in years. But in 2023, Hank and Hari did have their first public discussion about Apu and a whole lot more when they appeared together on the NPR podcast Code Switch. If you want to check it out, that episode is called The Fallout of a Call Out. This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producers are Nora Ritchie and Colin Anderson. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app?

• 34:14Dan Pashman?

  Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 34:44Dan Pashman?

  Traditional home security only. Alerts you after a break in, and that's too late. Simply Safe is changing that.

• 34:50Speaker 04

  Stop. This is Simply Safe. Police are on the way.

• 34:53Dan Pashman?

  We don't just alert. We help stop crime before it starts. Plans starting around a dollar a day. Right now, get 70% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplysafe.com/sxm. Simply Safe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 35:08Speaker 04

  Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplysafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

• 35:14Dan Pashman?

  Hey, it's Dan here. Thank you so much, first of all, for tuning into this podcast every week. We really appreciate it. And I want to let you know, if you want to hear new episodes ad-free, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts Plus on Apple Podcasts, or visit siriusxm.com/podcastsplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. Thanks.