The Great Yogurt Feud (Live)

If someone asked you to name the country that dominates American yogurt aisles, you would undoubtedly say Greece. Thick Greek yogurt makes up more than half of all US yogurt sales. But shaking its fist from the shadows is another country that’s even more obsessed with yogurt: Bulgaria.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  My whole extended family and I went to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina this past spring. And I gotta say, I came away feeling like, number one, this is a great family destination. Number two, this is a great place to come all year round. The mini golf alone is probably worth, it's like the mini golf capital of the country. They have the most incredible elaborate mini golf courses. They also have more than 80 championship, full-size golf courses, plus 60 miles of beautiful coastline, all-season sunshine. Of course, you can relax by the beach or the pool. There's also jet skiing, fishing charters, paddle boarding, and of course, food. Oh, man, did we eat well in Myrtle Beach. From fresh local seafood, to Kraft burgers and Kraft beers, to kebabs on the boardwalk. With more than 2,000 restaurants to choose from, from legendary no-frills seafood shacks

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  to chef-driven dining, Myrtle Beach has it all. Plus, live entertainment at the beach, there's always something epic going on. So, summer may be winding down, but in Myrtle Beach, you're gonna find the coastal vacation of your dreams all year long. Start planning your ultimate beach vacation at visitmyrtlebeach.com. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now, Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking.

• 1:23Dan Pashman?

  Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners. Today, we're bringing you a special live episode that we recorded recently at Little Island, a small park on a pier in New York. We did a run of three shows there. It was really fun. So many of you showed up to sit in the grass and watch. We had yogurt samples, live singers, and gorgeous weather with a view of the Manhattan skyline. All this to say, you should come see us when we do live shows. It's a good time. So, here's the show, which began with our Bulgarian choir taking the stage.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Yay! Iana ide, yako zeto, Iana ide, yako zeto, te maniano, te reee.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Juvinoto, rosnakidka, juvinoto, rosnakidka, te maniano, te reee.

• 2:55Dan Pashman?

  There are a lot of rivalries in food, right? Coke versus Pepsi, Ruffles versus Lays. But there are other rivalries in food that no one really knows about, because only one side cares. Like, you think Chicago deep-dish pizza is laying awake at night worrying about St. Louis-style? Probably not. But it turns out, there's a one-sided rivalry like this in the world of yogurt. Let me ask you, if I were to say, what country has its yogurt, top-to-bottom shelf, the whole aisle, where's all the yogurt coming from that everyone wants to eat these days? Greece. That's right, Greece. Greek yogurt, Chobani, Faye, and a million others. Thick, creamy, Greek yogurt seems to be all anyone wants to talk about, right?

• 3:38Dan Pashman?

  Lurking in the shadows, shaking its fist at this leviathan of lactose, is another country. Can anyone guess what country that is? Bulgaria. It is? Yeah! Bulgaria, that's right. Now, listen to me, Bulgarians are obsessed with yogurt. They have a museum of yogurt. And they are pissed that their neighbors in Greece are getting all the attention. Listen to this guy.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Don't get me started on this one. Because, I have to say this, there's no such a thing as Greek yogurt. It's just a made-up word.

• 4:21Dan Pashman?

  So, you're saying there's nothing distinctly Greek about Greek yogurt?

• 4:24Speaker 02

  There's nothing distinct, and nobody can prove me wrong in this, because it's so obvious.

• 4:28Dan Pashman?

  This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And I'm jumping in here with the official intro, because we didn't do the official intro at Little Island. It was a different kind of performance. So, let's get right back to Little Island. Welcome to a live taping of the Sporkful podcast. Thank you. And we're thrilled to have you here. I want to welcome my friends at Yasna Voices, our Bulgarian choir. Some shows have a Greek chorus, we have a Bulgarian chorus. That's right, that's right. I think it's better, yeah. And I also want to bring on my good friend Eliza Rothstein, audio producer and reporter extraordinaire. Welcome, Eliza.

• 5:13Speaker 03

  Hey, Dan.

• 5:14Dan Pashman?

  Great to see you. Now, you're the one who told me about Bulgarian yogurt.

• 5:18Speaker 03

  I did. I'm obsessed with Bulgarian yogurt. I've been eating it every day for, I think, the last 10 years.

• 5:25Dan Pashman?

  That's commitment, yeah.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 5:27Dan Pashman?

  So, how did you hear about it?

• 5:28Speaker 03

  I was put onto it by a friend. I was living in Portland, Oregon at the time. And when I went looking for it, I could find only one brand in one grocery store, way in the bottom corner of the yogurt aisle. And over the years, I've come to really love it. And so, I've wondered, if this stuff is so good, why is it so hard to find? Why is it that all we see is Greek?

• 5:52Dan Pashman?

  And so, like, what is it, how would you describe the taste?

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Sure. So, the taste is really unique. It's super sour, super tangy, and very tart. But there's something textural as well that I really love. It's really light-bodied. Bulgarian yogurt has this refreshing quality that I really enjoy.

• 6:11Dan Pashman?

  And am I right? You're so into it, you went to Bulgaria, like, on a yogurt research mission?

• 6:18Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. I took a yogurt pilgrimage to Bulgaria. I, this was last year, I was actually in vacation in Greece.

• 6:26Dan Pashman?

  Boo.

• 6:27Speaker 03

  Sorry. But I traveled north. I took a detour to Bulgaria.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Dobro večer, prijateljuma. Dobro večer, druga. Dobre došlo v naši agrad. Dobre došlo v Bulgaria. Zemlje v toliku bogdene, jedna bogar skrozavde. Nekad ja da ti razкажem, saromak nja sigla.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Za Balkana, za moreto i za svički nas, svički nas.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Now, I'm sure everybody here could point to Bulgaria on a map of Europe.

• 7:33Dan Pashman?

  But just in case, we got a map of Europe here. So, this is Europe. Starting in the west over here, we have England, we have France, we have Italy. As you move east, there's Germany, we get over to Ukraine, this big green one here is Russia. And right down here, that is Bulgaria.

• 7:52Speaker 03

  Bulgaria is bordered by two yogurt powerhouses to the south. So, there's Greece and Turkey. And then, to the north, a bit to the east, it's bordered by a number of former communist countries. Bulgaria itself was under communist rule for about 50 years, from World War II all the way to 1990.

• 8:13Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, now, I don't know about you, Eliza, but I have to, if I'm being honest, my, I have like a stereotype in my mind of what former communist countries look like, and it's generally gray and concrete.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  Yes, I had a similar assumption, but I was wrong. Bulgaria is vibrant and colorful. I was there in the fall. I got to drive through beautiful mountain ranges, and the leaves were turning orange and red and yellow. Bulgaria has an amazing coastline along the Black Sea, so you got these sandy beaches, turquoise waters. And the capital city, Sofia, is so colorful, it has an actual yellow brick road.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  So goodbye, yellow brick road, where the dogs of society howl. You can't plant me in your penthouse, I'm going back to my plow.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  And one thing, I confirmed.

• 9:13Speaker 03

  One thing I confirmed when I went to Bulgaria, yogurt is huge. It's everywhere. Their primary breakfast pastry is called banica. And banica is a filo-type dough filled with cheese and Bulgarian yogurt. And the custom is to drink alongside your banica, a beverage called airon.

• 9:35Dan Pashman?

  Oh, yeah, I love airon. Quick aside, so it's like a salty yogurt drink. First time I had it was in Berlin alongside a kebab. And like, people want to pair food and wine. This was the best food and drink pairing I ever had. It was the meat kebab and the salty airon beverage. But that aside, I love that in Bulgaria, they're having for breakfast a yogurt-filled pastry with a yogurt-drink chaser.

• 9:59Speaker 03

  Right, right. And it's not even 9:00 a.m. yet. That's two yogurts.

• 10:03Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 10:03Speaker 03

  The first night I was in Bulgaria, I stumbled into a restaurant. It had a lot of prepared food laid out in deli-style display cases. So I was able to try a ton. And I met the owner. His name was Konstantin. He's 27. He's from Sofia. And like many Bulgarians, he has a bone to pick.

• 10:25Speaker 04

  All the people in the world think that yogurt is Greek. But originally it's from Bulgaria. But we have bad advertisement. So all the people think that yogurt is Greek. But no, Bulgarian, and that's how you can make angry Bulgarian.

• 10:41Dan Pashman?

  That's right, Aliza. That's how you can make angry Bulgarian.

• 10:43Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 10:44Dan Pashman?

  You better watch it.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  It's true. Konstantin's family runs this restaurant. And they make all the dishes. They're open for lunch and dinner. And I found out that 50% of these dishes have Bulgarian yogurt in them.

• 10:56Speaker 04

  Oh, I have the ziki. Our variant is called snejanka. And we make it Bulgarian yogurt. I have katak. Katak is Bulgarian yogurt, Bulgarian cheese, and peppers. This is classic Bulgarian cake with yogurt. He's 50% yogurt.

• 11:16Speaker 03

  So there's yogurt in pretty much every meal.

• 11:19Speaker 04

  Every morning, every day, nonstop, I eat Bulgarian yogurt.

• 11:24Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, so I think we've proven that Bulgarians are serious about yogurt. Right? You guys get it. But it goes deeper than that because some Bulgarians say that they invented yogurt. Now, that's probably not true. Sorry, Bulgaria. But I can tell you where this claim... I'm sorry, you can't have that one. All right, but I can tell you where this claim comes from. It's all connected to the bacteria that turns milk into yogurt.

• 11:48Speaker 03

  So in order to make yogurt, any yogurt in the world, you need two types of bacteria. Streptococcus thermophilus and lactobacillus bulgarecus. That's right. These bacteria work together to help milk ferment. They essentially eat the sugars in milk, and then they produce lactic acid.

• 12:11Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, and this lactic acid has a couple of crucial things. All right, first, it gives yogurt its trademark sour taste. And it causes the proteins in the milk to clump together and give yogurt its gelatinous texture.

• 12:22Speaker 03

  And if you have these two bacterial strains, it's pretty easy to make yogurt. You add them to some warm milk. You let that mixture sit and ferment overnight, maybe up to 24 hours. And then bada bing bada boom, you've got yogurt.

• 12:37Dan Pashman?

  And these two bacteria are in all yogurt. Greek, Icelandic, French, Lebanese, you name it. Different styles of yogurt may use different ratios of these two bacteria to adjust flavor and texture, but they're both always in there. And you heard right. One of these bacteria is called lactobacillus bulgarecus.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  In 1905, a Bulgarian scientist named Stamen Grigorov brought yogurt from his home village in Bulgaria to the Pasteur Institute in France. He put that yogurt under a microscope and became the first person in history to see the primary bacteria that makes yogurt possible. So in honor of his discovery, in honor of his home country, the bacteria was called lactobacillus bulgarecus.

• 13:33Dan Pashman?

  But this bacteria did not originate in Bulgaria. It grows naturally all over the world. Truth is, we can't say for sure who invented yogurt. Humans probably stumbled upon it in different places at different times, most likely in the Middle East and Central Asia thousands of years ago.

• 13:48Speaker 03

  But even if Bulgaria didn't invent yogurt, they did have a massive role in popularizing it, particularly in Western Europe. Around the time lactobacillus bulgarecus was discovered, news was spreading about Bulgarian yogurt. There were researchers in Paris studying longevity. And they found people living deep in the Bulgarian mountains who claimed to be 120 years old.

• 14:16Dan Pashman?

  Right, and the scientists are like, that's definitely possible. And clearly, it's the yogurt. So people are like, we gotta get our hands on this stuff.

• 14:22Speaker 03

  Totally, fountain of youth.

• 14:24Dan Pashman?

  Thankfully, we don't have crazy health crazes like that anymore.

• 14:26Speaker 03

  Sure. So word is spreading about this yogurt and its health benefits. And since yogurt wasn't a big part of Western European cuisine at the time, it was first sold as medicine, not food.

• 14:42Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, so like in 1920s France, if you wanted yogurt, you would actually buy it at a pharmacy.

• 14:46Speaker 03

  And that is all thanks to a little company called Danone.

• 14:51Dan Pashman?

  Danone was effectively the first global yogurt brand. The founder, a Greek guy, had read all these studies coming out of the Pasteur Institute about the health benefits of yogurt. Eventually, Danone sets up shop in Paris. And on the marketing and branding front, this is where Bulgarian yogurt gets left in the dust.

• 15:08Speaker 03

  Even though Bulgaria is the whole reason this yogurt frenzy was started in the first place. By the time Danone hits the United States in 1942, there's no mention of Bulgarian yogurt.

• 15:23Dan Pashman?

  And at first, Danone just sold plain yogurt, like no sugar, no flavoring. But that wasn't gonna fly here. I mean, this is around the same time sugar cereals were hitting the market. What self-respecting American is gonna eat plain yogurt when they could be eating Frosted Flakes? So Danone had to pivot. Enter fruit on the bottom.

• 15:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that really sets us up for the next 50 years in American yogurt history. Yoplay, another French brand, enters the scene in the 70s. And then by 1990, yogurt shelves in the United States are filled with cups of fruity, sugary yogurt.

• 16:06Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Greek yogurt arrives in America and changes everything. Stick around.

• 16:18Speaker 03

  Hope you're hungry, because it's time for some ads.

• 16:23Dan Pashman?

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• 17:08Dan Pashman?

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• 17:51Dan Pashman?

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• 18:35Dan Pashman?

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• 19:02Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Last week on the show, I talked with chef and cookbook author Carla Lally about her latest book, which is a big departure from her previous work. She describes it as a divorced cookbook memoir. She tells me the story of how she and her now ex-husband tried to figure out how to tell their two teenagers that they were separating.

• 19:19Speaker 05

  We were in couples therapy. We were sort of getting the script, right? And how to navigate this very hard conversation? And then it was, for me, I mean, it's maniacal, but I'm like, are we gonna eat dinner after? Are we gonna have dinner for?

• 19:34Dan Pashman?

  I gotta make sure it's gonna be warm.

• 19:36Speaker 05

  We're not not having dinner.

• 19:38Dan Pashman?

  Carla is fun and direct and introspective. I think you're really gonna love this conversation. It's up now. One more quick note. I'll be in conversation with chef Alon Shia at the 92nd Street Y in New York on Sunday, October 11th. We'll be talking about his latest cookbook. Tickets and more details at sporkful.com/live. Okay, back to our live show about Bulgarian yogurt taped at Little Island in New York.

• 20:03Dan Pashman?

  So it's the early 90s. Fast forward to the early 90s, our yogurt aisles are dominated by Yoplait whips, Dan and Fruit on the bottom, and those ones that have like the packet of sugary granola are just straight up candy on top that you dump into the yogurt. I mean, I did grow up on those. My kids love those ones. They are really good. But, you know, it wasn't exactly the way the godfathers of yogurt intended it. This is the yogurt scene when someone very important to our story first sets foot in America. The guy you heard at the start of the show.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Don't get me started on this one, because I have to say this, there's no such a thing as Greek yogurt. It's just a made up word.

• 20:46Speaker 03

  This is Atanas Valev.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  Give it up for Atanas. Atanas is from Plovdiv. That's Bulgaria's second largest city.

• 20:58Dan Pashman?

  So you left Bulgaria. How many suitcases did you pack?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  I think it was one.

• 21:02Dan Pashman?

  So you had to put, aside from some clothes, you had to put a handful of your most important worldly possessions into this suitcase to move to America. And inside that suitcase was your yogurt starter culture.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Yes, two jars of yogurt as a starter culture to start making my own yogurt.

• 21:21Dan Pashman?

  Why was it so important to you to bring the culture?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Because I didn't expect that I'm gonna find the same quality, the same taste yogurt. Yeah, I didn't know. And I was like, let me just take it with me. Because with this culture, you can make yogurt forever.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  Dan and I went to visit Atanas at his home on Long Island a few months ago. And he told us, when he first stepped foot into an American supermarket and saw the yogurt aisle, he was horrified.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  To me, yogurt is yogurt. It has to be plain. That's how I was thinking. I always say if I want a dessert, I'll probably go buy a tiramisu. You know, I just, I don't just need flavored yogurt. I need plain yogurt and I know how to make it at home. Then somebody came to me, a friend, and he said, hey, you make a good yogurt. Why don't you start a business? And I'm like, hmm, why don't I start a business? I didn't know anything about yogurt business back then. Nothing.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  But Atanas decided to start Tremona Yogurt. The name comes from the old Roman name for his hometown.

• 22:31Dan Pashman?

  Initially, Atanas just offered his yogurt to other Bulgarians, but so many other Bulgarians are already making yogurt in their own home, tough to build a business on that. He sold small amounts to local health food stores, but he wanted more, not just for his business, but for Bulgaria.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  This is one thing that we have, how should I put this? Not that no one else has, but it's the food, it's Bulgarian food, the yogurt, the Bulgarian food. That's, that's what it is. And nobody makes it the same way. And we're the same culture, which is called lactobacillus bulgarecus. It's named after Bulgaria. It's even on the Greek yogurt. It says bulgarecus, not greekus.

• 23:14Dan Pashman?

  I'm gonna start keeping track of the number of shots taking a Greek yogurt. We're almost in double digits.

• 23:23Dan Pashman?

  So when Atanas decided he was gonna go commercial with his yogurt, the first thing he had to do was nail down his bacteria recipe. He couldn't keep using the culture that he brought with him from Bulgaria all those years back.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, producing yogurt at scale is a very different process from making it at home. You have to work with a culture supply company. Yes, that is a thing. They provide a culture, which is essentially a blend of bacteria. And they give it to you in little frozen pellets that can be used for mass production.

• 23:53Dan Pashman?

  But these companies can make all kinds of cultures with different ratios of the key bacteria. Bulgarian yogurt tends to have a higher proportion of that lactobacillus bulgarecus. After a lot of back and forth, Atanas landed on a recipe that tasted just like home.

• 24:07Speaker 03

  So he had his brand name. He had his recipe, but a much bigger challenge was about to emerge.

• 24:25Dan Pashman?

  That's a Faye ad. Well, you don't need to clap for our dancing, please. We don't need pity claps. Thank you.

• 24:30Speaker 03

  I'll take the clap, Dan. Jesus.

• 24:34Dan Pashman?

  So yeah, Atanas was trying to build his business just as the yogurt world was on the brink of a revolution.

• 24:40Speaker 03

  Enter the Greeks.

• 24:47Dan Pashman?

  I mean, I remember the rise of Greek yogurt, Eliza, and it felt like it came out of nowhere. I'd never heard of it. And then one day, it was the only yogurt in the supermarket.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, for me, it was middle school. I remember loving this particular flavor of Yoplait whips. It was key lime pie. And I certainly didn't connect that to any particular country or yogurt style. And then all of a sudden, my friends and I are eating thick yogurt, and we're calling it Greek.

• 25:13Dan Pashman?

  The first major Greek yogurt brand to hit American shelves was Faye. That's the ad we just heard. That was in 1998. Faye, you may have seen it. It's the one spelled F-A-G-E. Now Faye is a Greek brand. It was imported from Greece to the US. And Faye is a strained yogurt. Okay, that means some of the liquid whey is strained out to make it thicker. But Greek yogurt as a category didn't really get going until another brand came on the scene.

• 25:37Speaker 05

  In a world of secrets, one woman hides her Chobani in a secret hiding place because she'll rest at nothing to keep her rich and creamy yogurt out of sight from her hungry coworkers.

• 25:52Speaker 03

  Chobani played a huge role in the growth of Greek yogurt in the United States. But get this, the founder of Chobani is not Greek. He's Turkish. He took over this abandoned dairy factory in upstate New York, and he was trying to figure out what kind of yogurt to make. He decided to make a style that he remembered loving as a kid in Turkey, a strained yogurt.

• 26:19Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. And when he looked around, he saw that strained yogurt had already been marketed as Greek because of Faye. So he decided to market his yogurt as Greek too.

• 26:28Speaker 03

  Now, they do have strained yogurt in Greece, but not all yogurt in Greece is strained. They have other kinds too.

• 26:36Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, and strained yogurt is found in a lot of other places, including Turkey, Iran, even Bulgaria. But at the time, Atanas was trying to get his business off the ground, none of that seemed to matter. American consumers had already conflated strained with Greek. You can imagine how he felt about that.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  When you strain a yogurt, you call it strained. That's it. There's nothing Greek about it. Or same with any strained yogurt, just like this Kir, this Icelandic style. Same thing. They remove the liquid fraction of the whey protein to make it more dense and perhaps more palatable, especially for the American palate. Because when you strain it, it's more like a dessert, like a cheesecake kind of thing.

• 27:17Dan Pashman?

  It feels kind of decadent.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Yes, it's, it turns to a different product.

• 27:22Speaker 03

  We're talking a lot about yogurt thickness, but I have to point out, true yogurt heads make a distinction between thick and creamy. Thickness comes from liquid content. It impacts the consistency of yogurt. So thick yogurt will hold its shape on a spoon.

• 27:42Dan Pashman?

  Right. Meanwhile, creaminess comes from fat content. It's more about a smooth, silky texture and mouthfeel. The Bulgarian yogurt that Atanas makes is creamy, but not thick. It's actually very delicate and a little wobbly. It's sort of between a solid and a liquid.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  Greek yogurt, on the other hand, is thick, but not necessarily creamy. It has this dense paste-like texture. And if you make it with skim milk, you get all the thickness without any creaminess because there's no fat.

• 28:12Dan Pashman?

  Now, the thickness of Greek yogurt was a huge selling point when Chobani hit the market. It launched at a time when Americans were becoming more concerned about sugar. Greek yogurt felt indulgent even when it wasn't sweetened. So it could have no sugar and no fat, and people would still eat it up. Dan and Sud followed suit with their own Greek yogurt brand.

• 28:30Speaker 05

  New Dan and Arco's triple zero is my go-to protein snack.

• 28:33Dan Pashman?

  Protein from yogurt.

• 28:34Speaker 05

  Yep. This Greek nonfat yogurt packs 15 grams of protein punch.

• 28:39Dan Pashman?

  Now, that's another thing that ended up helping Greek yogurt. It's high in protein.

• 28:42Speaker 03

  Because it's strained, Greek yogurt is more concentrated. So it can have two, maybe three times as much protein per serving as Bulgarian yogurt. Now, of course, the focus on protein in the American health zeitgeist has ballooned in recent years, and Greek yogurt has ridden that wave.

• 29:01Dan Pashman?

  Now, when Chobani hit the scene in 2005, Greek yogurt was less than 1% of all yogurt sales in America. Today, it's more than half. And in the past few months, there's been a boom of Greek frozen yogurt shops right here in New York with lines out the door and the requisite influencer videos of said lines. And the Bulgarians, the people who identified the key bacteria, who eat the stuff morning, noon, and night, who built a museum of yogurt. They're on the outside, watching all this happen.

• 30:06Dan Pashman?

  After the break, Atanas makes the case for Bulgarian yogurt, and some of our audience members get their first taste of it live on stage. Stick around.

• 30:30Speaker 03

  And now, a delicious word from our sponsors.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  This podcast is supported by Nurtec ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So, when migraine takes your time, take Nurtec. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtec can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtec is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtec ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers

• 31:27Speaker 01

  and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTEC, or visit Nurtec.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.

• 31:41Speaker 06

  Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange-traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.

• 32:25Speaker 06

  While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.

• 32:42Speaker 05

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• 33:12Dan Pashman?

  Before we return to Bulgarian yogurt, I want to tell you real quick about a recent episode from our friends at Radiolab. Co-host Latif Nasr becomes fixated on a question from his kid. What's the sweetest thing in the whole world? So Latif, his kids, and Radiolab co-host Lulu Miller set out on a quest to uncover the answer. They try various substances, some surprisingly sweet.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  It's almost like I picture all these like flowers, like it's like flowery sweeter.

• 33:36Dan Pashman?

  And some even disgustingly sweet.

• 33:41Speaker 07

  Oh, okay. What do you think? Ugly. Ugly?

• 33:48Dan Pashman?

  Lulu and Latif even test whether sound plays a role in perceived sweetness.

• 33:52Speaker 03

  It gives it like more dimension.

• 33:56Dan Pashman?

  And reveal the sweet substances existing in some of the most unexpected places of the universe.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  Oh, wait, wait, space tastes like raspberries?

• 34:04Dan Pashman?

  No, no, no, just it's one cloud. I love everything Radiolab does. That show is one of a kind. So make sure you check this episode out. It's called The Sweetest Thing. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. All right, back now to our live show about Bulgarian yogurt.

• 34:21Dan Pashman?

  So Greek yogurt is booming. Meanwhile, Bulgarians are stewing, especially Atenas.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  People would ask me, before they even see the yogurt, I said, oh, you Bulgarian, do you know anything? You guys make yogurt? I'm like, really? You take this as an insult or something? Like, what? That's all we do, and that's all we make.

• 34:42Dan Pashman?

  That's our number one thing.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  That's one, yeah, you tell them if I know about it. Yeah, but yeah, people just don't know.

• 34:49Dan Pashman?

  So why don't more people know about Bulgarian yogurt?

• 34:53Speaker 02

  Because we're a small diaspora here. I mean, let's not forget Bulgaria lived in communism for so long. So just the past 35 years, the world get to know a lot more of the stuff that we make.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  As we said, Bulgaria was under communist rule for decades, until 1990. Not much going in, not much going out. Meanwhile, Americans became very familiar with Greek food and culture as Greek immigrants who came earlier in the century assimilated.

• 35:25Dan Pashman?

  I feel another Atenas rant coming on.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Compared to Greeks, for example, I mean, Greeks are everywhere. Everybody knows about Greek salad. There's a Bulgarian salad just like it, even better. There's a yogurt dip like tzatziki. We have the same thing, just called snow white. If people don't know, we make it too. Again, it's better. Don't forget, I'm Bulgarian. I'm Bulgarian. It's better than Greek.

• 35:47Dan Pashman?

  So the point is, when Greek yogurt came on the market, Americans already had an impression of Greece as a place not just with great food, but also incredible natural beauty, the Greek islands with their blue skies and crystal clear water. Who wouldn't want an indulgent yogurt from a place that looks so luxurious?

• 36:04Speaker 03

  That's right. And as we said, Bulgaria isn't seen as a hotspot vacation destination, even though it should be.

• 36:12Dan Pashman?

  Right, even if that's unfair, yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Greek yogurt had a big head start on that marketing front.

• 36:17Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, so when Atenas launched his yogurt company, he was up against a lot.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Some of my friends here were skeptical. They said, what do you think you're doing? You're going to compete with the Greek yogurt? And I'm like, you'll see.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  Atenas thought he had one advantage that the Greeks could never match: that unique Bulgarian flavor.

• 36:37Dan Pashman?

  Right now, I want to call down three volunteers to try Bulgarian yogurt right here on the stage. You, sir, come on right down. Yes, I need two more. You need to be someone who has never had Bulgarian yogurt before. And all right, are you two related?

• 36:51Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 36:52Dan Pashman?

  Are you brothers? Okay, what's your name?

• 36:54Speaker 07

  Nate.

• 36:55Dan Pashman?

  Nate and?

• 36:56Speaker 07

  Jake.

• 36:57Dan Pashman?

  Jake, Nate and Jake. How old are you, Nate?

• 36:59Speaker 07

  10.

• 37:00Dan Pashman?

  10, very good. And Jake? 12. 12, and your name, sir?

• 37:04Speaker 01

  Michael.

• 37:05Dan Pashman?

  Michael, all right, come on over here. So first, just take a little smell. Are you ready to go ahead and take your first taste?

• 37:08Speaker 03

  Head nods.

• 37:09Dan Pashman?

  Thoughts?

• 37:10Speaker 03

  Give us a word.

• 37:11Speaker 07

  It's normally, well, by normally yogurt, I mean Greece yogurt, because I haven't had Bulgarian yogurt before.

• 37:17Dan Pashman?

  How is it different?

• 37:18Speaker 07

  It's a lot more sour. Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

• 37:21Dan Pashman?

  Is it too sour for you?

• 37:22Speaker 07

  I'm not a big fan of sour things, but.

• 37:25Speaker 03

  Oh, gosh.

• 37:26Dan Pashman?

  You don't have to keep eating it if you want to.

• 37:27Speaker 03

  Power through.

• 37:28Dan Pashman?

  All right, what are your thoughts down here?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  It's, at first, it's almost like sour cream. It's got that lightness to it, but you have the sour aftertaste. It's tasty.

• 37:38Dan Pashman?

  Right. Would you keep eating it?

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 37:41Dan Pashman?

  Okay, all right. Did you finish it, Nate?

• 37:43Speaker 07

  Uh, I mean, I might.

• 37:44Dan Pashman?

  No, you don't have, it's all right. It's all right, you don't have to, don't worry about it. Big hand for our volunteers, everyone.

• 37:52Dan Pashman?

  Great job, you guys, thank you.

• 37:56Dan Pashman?

  Look, so as we just demonstrated, Bulgarian yogurt is very tangy and tart. In fact, the word for yogurt in Bulgaria translates as sour milk.

• 38:05Speaker 03

  And back to Atenas. When he was starting out, he believed that if he could just get enough people to taste his yogurt, they'd see how good it is. They would see that it's better than the Greek stuff. So he set out for his first in-store demo, where he would give out free samples to customers.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  So I set up the nice tablecloth and everything. I'll never forget the very first person that tasted the yogurt. This woman approached, oh, what's this? This is yogurt, it's Bulgarian star yogurt that I make, and so on. So she tasted it, and she just went, oh my God, oh my God, started running around. I gotta put something in my mouth. This is so sour. I was so embarrassed. I was like, oh my God, is that what this is going to be? Wow, that's my very first demo. But guess what? In the next hour, I sold out everything from the shelf.

• 38:59Speaker 03

  So Atenas saw that as proof of concept, but it would take eight more years of hustling before he got his big break.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  In 2014, actually, I won a first place in this Martha Stewart competition, so I got to hang out with her and other people in her office in Manhattan for two days. It was great. And Bulgaria even heard even more about it. I was all over the news there.

• 39:25Dan Pashman?

  How big of a deal are you in Bulgaria?

• 39:29Speaker 02

  I think I'm very popular.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  And I tell you one thing. So I'm visiting my mother in hospital. She's laying in the bed and watching TV. And here is, there's a film about me, how I started the company and everything else. And that's the time when all the doctors are visiting. And then she goes, wait, wait, wait. That's my boy over there on the screen. And the doctor's like, oh, I've seen that guy before. I'm like, I'm right here. I was like, really?

• 40:07Speaker 02

  It's a good feeling.

• 40:09Dan Pashman?

  I think you should get a T-shirt that says, I'm big in Bulgaria.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  Going back to the Greeks, I have a shirt that says, let the Greeks have their philosophers. Leave the yogurt to us.

• 40:21Speaker 03

  So after getting all that attention from Martha, business for Atanas started to pick up. By the end of 2024, he was in Whole Foods nationwide. Last year, he got his first contract with Costco.

• 40:35Dan Pashman?

  That's right. Yep. As his business has grown, Atanas has softened on some of his strictest rules.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Today we make vanilla yogurt because of, upon customer requests, they keep saying, why don't you make something else? I didn't want to make vanilla yogurt, but I did. Because it's better for the business. We have more product on the shelves and then people like it. And it's not overly sweet, by the way. It's just very well balanced.

• 41:01Dan Pashman?

  Where do you think Bulgarian yogurt is in America today?

• 41:06Speaker 02

  I believe it's getting more popularity. People started hearing about it, but still it's like, I would put it in the less known, you know, yogurt category. When you get used to eating this yogurt, I've heard it for thousands of people. You can go back to eat another yogurt that it's not that tart. You get accustomed and your brain start thinking different way, I guess. Cause you try it, the other one is like a blah.

• 41:35Dan Pashman?

  One more shot at the Greeks for good measure.

• 41:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, like blah. So Dan, when we went to Atanas's house a few months ago, you tried Bulgarian yogurt for the first time.

• 41:45Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 41:46Speaker 03

  What did you think?

• 41:47Dan Pashman?

  I mean, it's, it is sour, like that's as advertised. Okay. You first, that first taste, it almost like puckers your lips. Um, it's almost like you just like bite into a lemon wedge. Um, and, and the first bite or two, I was like, oh my God, like it does like your brain almost starts tingling. It's, you know, your, it, um, your whole palate reverberates. Um, I will say that like, after a few tastes, I'm sort of like, I don't know how much, like, I don't know that I could eat a whole tub of this.

• 42:11Speaker 03

  Okay, okay. So it sounds like I haven't totally converted you to my side of things. You're not exclusively eating Bulgarian yogurt henceforth.

• 42:19Dan Pashman?

  Not exclusively, but I do buy it. I bought it a number of times since we were at Atanas's house. And I actually, this is gonna be a little controversial, Eliza, but I'll tell you what I've been doing. I have been combining Bulgarian yogurt and Greek yogurt.

• 42:34Speaker 03

  Whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 42:40Dan Pashman?

  Just follow me, follow me here. Okay? You get that tart, tangy, uh, lightness of the Bulgarian yogurt, but also some of that rich, thick decadence of the Greek yogurt. And you mix them together and then I like it with a hefty sprinkle of flaky salt, some good olive oil and some za'atar. Maybe dip some bread in there. Ah, it is so good.

• 43:01Speaker 03

  Okay, okay. I'm coming around. You know, this actually reminds me of something that I do. When I find myself in the dire situation of having access to only Greek yogurt, I will add a little bit of water, stir it up to make the texture a bit more liquid. And then I'll squeeze a little bit of lemon in there to make it a little bit more sour.

• 43:20Dan Pashman?

  So you're making the Greek yogurt more like Bulgarian yogurt.

• 43:23Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 43:23Dan Pashman?

  But it ends up probably like the stuff I'm making.

• 43:25Speaker 03

  Well, maybe so.

• 43:26Dan Pashman?

  All right. I think, did we just create world peace, Eliza?

• 43:30Speaker 03

  I think we did, Dan.

• 43:31Dan Pashman?

  I think we did. All right. You're welcome.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Di umano, di ubero, di umano, di ubero. Di umano, di ubero, di umano, di ubero. Kajimi katsi sadi pipero, kajimi katsi sadi pipero. Di umano, di ubero, di umano, di ubero. Kajimi katsi sadi pipero, kajimi katsi sadi pipero. Dzatzi da vage, dzatzi da vage. Da berish, berish, berish katsakas. Da berish, berish, berish katsakas. Di umano, di ubero, di umano, di ubero.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Kajimi katsi sadi pipero, kajimi katsi sadi pipero. Di umano, di ubero, di umano, di ubero. Kajimi katsi sadi, sadi pipero. Kajimi katsi sadi, sadi, sadi, sadi, sadi, sadi pipero.

• 44:38Dan Pashman?

  How about a big hand for our choir Yasna Voices?

• 44:43Dan Pashman?

  Thank you so much. Now, a couple of things I want to say. First off, I want to acknowledge a very special guest who's joining us here today. The one and only Atanas is here. Atanas, see, see, look, he matches the head. See, it's really him. That's how you know.

• 45:00Dan Pashman?

  I want to also mention that, uh, so, uh, Atanas's brand is called Trimona. It's on his T-shirt, T R I M O N A. Big hand for Eliza Rothstein, audio producer extraordinaire. And the Sporkful's resident yogurt head.

• 45:16Dan Pashman?

  And, uh, I want to thank you all so much. Thank you to the Little Island Crew who are phenomenal to work with for all their hard work. Shout out to Emma and Andres and the whole Sporkful crew for being here. And thank you all so much.

• 45:41Dan Pashman?

  Next week on the show, I talk with body positivity influencer Gabrielle Liscano about what she thinks went wrong in the movement. While you wait for that one, check out last week's conversation with Carla Lali about her so-called divorce cookbook. And hey, if you want to hear new episodes of The Sporkful ad-free, subscribe to Sirius XM Podcast Plus on Apple Podcasts or visit siriusxm.com/podcastplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 46:11Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer. Andres O'Hara. With production and reporting this week by.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  Eliza Rothstein.

• 46:16Dan Pashman?

  It was edited by.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  Camille Stanley.

• 46:18Dan Pashman?

  Our technical director is. Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Sirius XM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pasch.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  And we're Austin. And Karen from Provo, Utah, reminding you to. Eat more. Eat better. And. Eat more. More better.

• 46:50Speaker 06

  Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information.

• 47:33Speaker 06

  Read it carefully. While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Broker Services LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain or color changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NUR-TAC or visit nurtac.com. All right, back to your podcast playlist or whatever's keeping you going today.