The Rise, Fall, And Redemption of Belgian Waffles (Reheat)

At the 1964 New York World's Fair, Belgian waffles were introduced to America. They became a sensation. But a half-century later, the woman who sold those waffles says her family's legacy has been co-opted.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  As someone who has been lucky enough to go to Napa Valley, I can tell you, it's everything people say it is: beautiful scenery, quaint, beautiful towns, and phenomenal food and drink everywhere you go. I don't even know that much about wine, but I know that every glass of wine I had in Napa Valley was excellent. I mean, there's no bad glass of wine and no bad meal. Choose between hundreds of wineries, tasting rooms, and chef-led restaurants from a low-key lunch on a vineyard terrace to a full tasting menu paired by the winemaker. Plan your trip at visitnapavalley.com. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now, Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using

• 0:44Dan Pashman?

  Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:12Dan Pashman?

  Hey, everyone. Dan here with a reheat for you. And you know, a lot of foods we have here in America, you know that they came with a certain group of immigrants. So there was an era, a few decades, when there was an influx, and that's when the food came. But there's other foods where we can pinpoint the exact moment when this thing hit US soil. And that is the case with Belgian waffles. Today, we're going to revisit our episode on the rise, fall, and redemption of Belgian waffles. For that, I spoke with Marie Paul Vermerch, who helped her parents run a famous Belgian waffle stand at the 1964 World's Fair in Queens. That's the moment that Belgian waffles were introduced to America. We have the whole story coming up. And then later in the show, we reheat a call-in episode that kicks off with two brothers dueling pancake philosophies. What's a better topping

• 1:55Dan Pashman?

  strategy? Keeping things simple with traditional butter and syrup, or pouring on everything but the kitchen sink? It's waffles and pancakes, a perfect pairing. Remember, there's an episode of The Sporkful you want us to pull out of the deep freezer and reheat. Send me a voice memo or email to [email protected]. Thanks so much, and enjoy.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Everyone is coming to the New York World's Fair. They're coming from the four corners of the earth, and from five corners Idaho.

• 2:23Dan Pashman?

  It was spring 1964. LBJ was in the White House. An ad agency called Sterling Cooper Draper Price had just opened its doors, and the World's Fair was kicking off in New York City. All right, that middle one didn't happen, but the World's Fair did. And that summer, Belgian waffles were introduced to America.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Our surprise, we were that our product was, I mean, sometimes we had fights at the counter. People, you know, one comes time to close, please, one more, one more.

• 2:56Dan Pashman?

  Belgian waffles became a sensation, but somewhere along the line, they were co-opted, watered down, made from pancake mix. Today on The Sporkful, I'll talk to the woman who sold the waffles at that World's Fair a half-century ago. She'll define a real Belgian waffle, and she'll explain why you probably never heard of her.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  This is a very touchy subject.

• 3:18Dan Pashman?

  Has her mom forgiven her dad for everything that happened all those years ago? Plus, I'll talk to a young waffle maker who's shaking things up. Can old and new coexist? It's the rise, fall, and ultimate redemption of the Belgian waffle.

• 3:43Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Marie Paul Vermerch was just a teenager when she and her parents opened their Belgian waffle stand at the World's Fair. She didn't even speak English yet, but the experience changed her life. Last year, she was honored on the 50th anniversary of her family's contribution to the American food canon. And I had a chance to sit down with her then. We were also joined by Steve Lipshutz from Waffles and Dingus, which is a waffle truck that's been here in New York since 2007. And on The Sporkful, we like to define our terms, so that's where the conversation began. And I quickly learned that there's actually no such thing as a Belgian waffle.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  In Belgium, as you know, and Steve knows, we have many different types of waffles. This particular one that my parents introduced in the 1964 World's Fair, that was actually the Brussels waffle, which is the waffle that is a very, very light waffle, crisp, super crisp, deep, deep cast iron. Must have cast iron machines.

• 4:46Dan Pashman?

  You're saying, I'm sorry, but you're saying that the wells in the waffle structure itself are especially deep in a Brussels-style waffle?

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yes, yes. Although, my mother, observing a little bit when we arrived, observing a little bit that there was still a little bit of ignorance here, taught my dad, the Brussels waffle, call it the Brussels waffle, I don't think it's a good idea, because Brussels, where's Brussels for some people? And she said in French, la goutre belge, we need to call this la goutre belge, Belgian waffle.

• 5:16Dan Pashman?

  Steve, I'd like to bring you in here. Now, on the Waffles and Dingus menu, you write, and I should mention, by the way, Waffles and Dingus is sort of slang for waffles and things. Is that right? Waffles and thingamabobs?

• 5:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 5:28Dan Pashman?

  Okay. So on the Waffles and Dingus menu, you write, "In Belgium, you'd be slapped with an undercooked muscle for ordering a Belgian waffle, for the simple fact that in the motherland, waffles are named after their city of origin. The main heroes of our menu are the liege, liege?

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Liege.

• 5:45Dan Pashman?

  Liege, right. I took French. The main heroes of our menu are the liege waffle and the Brussels waffle, both typical Belgian street waffles. So you heard Marie Paul's plan, that her parents said, well, we can't call it the Brussels waffle, because people don't know. Now, here we are 50 years later. Is this a sign that Americans are better at geography?

• 6:04Speaker 03

  I mean, there is a greater understanding. You know, Brussels is the head of the European Union, and there is a, there is a better understanding of geography, sure, but, but part of our mission is to make sure that, that everything remains authentic. And we wouldn't want to change the name just to fit in with, with the normal Belgian waffle. It got to a point where even people are taking pancake batter, a simple pancake batter, pushing it in a Brussels iron and calling it a Belgian or Brussels waffle. And that's sort of where we had to intervene and say, whoa, whoa, you know?

• 6:39Dan Pashman?

  Marie Paul, you're nodding. What do you think of that?

• 6:43Speaker 02

  Terrible. First of all, those pancake are most of the time made with mix. We've, until today, I still make our waffle from fresh ingredients. No, I've been approached by many companies, why don't you make a dry mix? And it's something I promise, my parents I never do.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  We're with you on that one.

• 7:00Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. So what is called the Brussels waffle in Belgium is what most Americans think of as the Belgian waffle. But you have the liege waffle as well, Steve. Now, that one is soft and chewy as opposed to crispy.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  Right.

• 7:15Dan Pashman?

  Are the, is the physical structure different? Are the wells shallower?

• 7:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, the entire makeup of, of not only the ingredients, but also the iron that it's baked on is completely different. So the Brussels waffle, as we're talking about, is a batter that's made from scratch, and is in these deep wells and a deep grid.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  And lighter.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  Much lighter. And the liege waffle is made from a dough, actually, as, as opposed to a batter, and it has what's called pearl sugar in it, which is a beet-based sugar that it caramelizes when it cooks. So you end up with this, this very dense, sweet, soft, and chewy waffle.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Now, don't you divulge the other ingredient that makes it super light, that is, nobody, no.

• 8:00Dan Pashman?

  There's a secret ingredient? You guys know it?

• 8:02Speaker 02

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 8:03Dan Pashman?

  So, and it is?

• 8:06Speaker 03

  Secret.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  It's secret. It's liquid, and it's secret.

• 8:09Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  And it's not club soda, for some of the readers. For some of the readers, my father gave them the recipe, because he was exasperated. Sometimes people begging him, and he said, yeah, this is a recipe, and told them to put club soda. That's wonderful.

• 8:22Dan Pashman?

  So it was a fake, it was a fake recipe?

• 8:24Speaker 02

  It was a fake recipe. Absolutely no club soda.

• 8:34Dan Pashman?

  What are your most vivid recollections from that 1964 World's Fair? When you close your eyes and think about it, what do you picture?

• 8:42Speaker 02

  How, well, our surprise, we were that our product was, I mean, sometime we had fights at the counter. People, you know, one comes time to close, please, one more, one more. My brother was helping us and he was kind of a dry humor and he said, "These people never ate anything in their life." I mean, we had many, many, many different stories that, I mean, too many to tell about. But people just couldn't believe how light it just smelled. I bite into it and it melts in my mouth. Originally, we were going to serve just sprinkled with powdered sugar, like what was the most common way that it was eaten back then in Belgium.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  My mother, she also noticed, American people had a sweet tooth. So the whipped cream came around, fresh, fresh beaded whipped cream. We were constantly beading whipped creams. And strawberries. Now, the strawberry, we ran into a big problem because she wanted nothing to soak the waffle because she wanted nothing that would wet the waffle because it actually is the waffle that is the product, not the cream, not what you put on. And so we tried different ways to slice the strawberries and it was making juice. And finally, the only alternative was hand sliced strawberry. So we had a team of 10 people slicing constantly berries by hand.

• 10:03Dan Pashman?

  Wow. At the World's Fair?

• 10:05Speaker 02

  At the World's Fair and with nonstop line. So that's a lot of whipped cream. And we were serving the, we were garnishing, we were using pastry bag. We didn't have any--

• 10:15Dan Pashman?

  No spray cans.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  No spray cans. No, that did not exist, I think, at the time.

• 10:20Dan Pashman?

  And so Marie Paul, I mean, you and your parents played this pivotal role in American food history. Did your family make any money off this?

• 10:29Speaker 02

  This is a very touchy subject. We, we made a lot of money, but my father, being a great visionary, a great entrepreneur, but trusting too much people who approached him, we lost a lot of money. By a couple of times best partnership, I was trying to put through his head, let's open a shop, us, the family. Although the rest of my siblings were not interested in the part of the business, but I was. And I want, but he had this bug. He was very unstable.

• 11:06Dan Pashman?

  And your mother now is 95 years old.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:10Dan Pashman?

  You're getting a lot of attention right now with this 50th anniversary. What does she make of all this?

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Well, at first, she said, "I don't want to hear about it anymore. I don't want to bring," you know. And then I start taking her to different celebration. She now, you know, she enjoyed it. But at the beginning, when I start, you know, the media start calling me, she said, "Oh, no, not again, you know, I don't want to talk about this."

• 11:30Dan Pashman?

  Why is it that she doesn't want to talk about it?

• 11:32Speaker 02

  Because now she sees everybody making, you know, really with our idea that we introduce, waffles are everywhere. But one thing she always said, she said, "But they're not my waffles." And she's right.

• 11:44Dan Pashman?

  Right. So there's a part of her that sort of feels like, you know, that your family didn't reap the benefits of this idea.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Exactly. And then I had to explain to her, I said, "Well, Mom, at least now it's a recognition. At least now, you know, you're getting a recognition. And let's be, you know, that should make you happy." She said, "Well, I suppose so."

• 12:05Dan Pashman?

  So Marie Paul, I should mention also that you did sell your family's recipe to one other family--

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 12:13Dan Pashman?

  --in Syracuse, New York. And they are, on the condition that they would keep it secret--

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 12:18Dan Pashman?

  --and that they would only serve that recipe at the New York State Fair. Have you been there to taste their version of your recipe?

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:27Dan Pashman?

  And does it measure up?

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Actually, last year, that's the first year my mother was, lost the availability to walk, that she was in a wheelchair. And I was here last summer to help out with her. And it was, came the time of the New York State Fair. I said, "Would you like to go see our business?" You know? And I said, "You're not mad anymore at Dad? Is it time?" And she said, "Oh, I'd like to go." And so we went and they made the waffles and they, she ate three waffles in a row. And she said, "They're exactly like mine."

• 13:06Dan Pashman?

  That's great.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  I compliment you, they are my waffles.

• 13:09Dan Pashman?

  That's great.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  They were very, very happy.

• 13:22Dan Pashman?

  Steve, let's talk about your history a little bit. The Waffles and Dingus truck launched in 2007. You've been with it almost since the beginning. One of your colleagues told my producer, Kristin, "We really felt that the Belgian waffle was in the midst of a difficult moment and we wanted to change that." Tell me more about that.

• 13:39Speaker 03

  So, yeah, we spoke a little bit about it before, but there's this, this misconception about, about Belgian waffles, that it's just the shape. And it really boils down to much more than that. The ingredients, the irons that it's baked on, the preparation, how you eat it. And we found that, that that wasn't being respected. The owner is Thomas de Geest. He's a Belgian gentleman who remembers waffles as a child. And he said, "This is, this is it. This is my mission. I'm going to quit my corporate job and I'm going to invest what money I have into buying a 1964 box truck."

• 14:22Dan Pashman?

  I should briefly mention that I have my own legit Belgian waffle history. I have been to Brussels. I had a phenomenal Brussels waffle in the train station in Brussels. And it was so good that I bought an extra one for my brother, who was at the time at summer camp in, back in the US and complaining about how awful the food was there, that he couldn't even eat it. I bought a Belgian waffle at the train station in Brussels and I just put it in an envelope and sent it back to the US.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  And what it was like when it got here?

• 14:57Dan Pashman?

  He said, "When it was like in a manila envelope."

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 15:01Dan Pashman?

  And he said, "When it arrived, the grease, the oil had come through the entire bag. You could almost see through the bag."

• 15:05Speaker 02

  The butter.

• 15:06Dan Pashman?

  The butter, right. You could see right through the bag. But he said he ate it and it was amazing.

• 15:17Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, my conversation with Marie Paul and Steve continues. Now, it's all been lovey dovey between them so far, but what do Marie Paul say when she finds out that Steve's topping Belgian waffles with pulled pork? Kelskandal.

• 15:36Dan Pashman?

  Now, let's get back to my conversation with Marie Paul Vermeer, whose family brought the Belgian waffle to America in 1964. We were joined by Steve Lipshutz from Waffles and Dingus in New York. And I asked them both, is there such thing as too many toppings on a Belgian waffle?

• 15:52Speaker 02

  I draw the line to stay very conservative. I mean, do you want to taste what's on the waffle or do you want to taste the actual waffle? And so that was a big little head-on collision between me and my dad at the New York State Fair, when he started coming up with the idea of putting whipped cream, strawberries, what he called the waffle sundae with, with ice cream and then with, you know, and then fudge. And I totally, I said, "No."

• 16:20Dan Pashman?

  At the Waffles and Dingus truck, Steve, I know you have a section of savory waffles and you even write on the menu, "If the BOWI, Belgian Office for Waffle Inspection, heard about some of the savory waffles we serve, they would lock us up. But New York City is not under their jurisdiction." You got waffles with--

• 16:36Speaker 02

  I was shocked.

• 16:37Dan Pashman?

  Marie Paul, you were shocked. You saw they got pulled pork on top of some of these waffles.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, yes.

• 16:44Dan Pashman?

  What was your thought when you first heard that?

• 16:45Speaker 02

  I look at his employee and I say, "No, no, no, no, no."

• 16:48Speaker 03

  Well, let me, let me just chime in. So we feel that in order to be considered a waffle authority, you need to be able to, first, offer an authentic Brussels and/or Liège waffle, period. Once you can do that, then you can branch out a little bit and, and take what waffles should be and try to play around with waffles, what waffles can be.

• 17:29Dan Pashman?

  Marie Paul, you've kind of already described what makes a great Brussels waffle, Belgian waffle, great. How do you eat it?

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Well, we serve at the World's Fair, like we were eating in Belgium, right? Walking into the street and grabbing one from the establishment window with the hands.

• 17:49Dan Pashman?

  Steve, hands or utensils?

• 17:52Speaker 03

  Definitely with your hands. I mean, there are different settings for different waffles. There's the Brussels waffle, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is traditionally eaten in a teahouse, where you sit down and you can add different toppings if you'd like. And then there's the Liege waffle that we're talking about, that is a traditional street waffle. So, as much as you can, eat it with your hands, get in it, you know? Try to become one with the waffle.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Several times, people ask, can you cut? We garnish the waffle, and can you cut? Me and mom did not speak any English, and my mother would say, "No."

• 18:36Dan Pashman?

  No.

• 18:37Speaker 03

  It would be like eating a hot dog or a pretzel on the street in New York with a fork and a knife.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  You know, it's a...

• 18:46Speaker 02

  And asking for a fork and a knife to cut your...

• 18:49Dan Pashman?

  Right. But I do think this also is sort of, gets back to one of the tests that distinguishes a Belgian waffle from a typical American breakfast waffle, which is that it needs to be sort of firm enough and of the right size and shape that you can hold it in your... Like, if you took a giant, round, one of those circular, American style waffles that has the four wedges?

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:13Dan Pashman?

  You couldn't hold one of those whole things. It would flop over. Marie Paul, do you have a preference between Brussels and Liege waffles?

• 19:22Speaker 02

  No, because they're two completely different things.

• 19:26Dan Pashman?

  Steve, what's your preference, Brussels versus Liege?

• 19:29Speaker 03

  I honestly think it depends on the weather.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  That's true, too.

• 19:34Speaker 03

  I mean, there's...

• 19:35Speaker 02

  No, that's true, too.

• 19:36Speaker 03

  There's nothing, you know, it would be like choosing between your children, you know? But if, you know...

• 19:42Dan Pashman?

  So, tell me, what kind of weather is Brussels waffle weather? What kind of weather is Liege waffle?

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Sit by the beach, by the North Sea, in a gophry, in the afternoon, after you've done, you know, just walking, and then let's go to a tea, you know, to what's it called? Gophry, the those tea rooms that Steve was mentioning earlier. And then the...

• 20:02Dan Pashman?

  That's Liege weather?

• 20:03Speaker 02

  No, that's Brussels waffle.

• 20:06Dan Pashman?

  Brussels waffle is 4:00 in the afternoon, on the North Sea, you've been at the beach all day, you go to a nice tea room, you have a Brussels waffle. What's Liege weather like?

• 20:15Speaker 03

  I'm thinking, cold, rainy, you need something to comfort you, warm you up. It's like New York City today.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  And stick to your stomach.

• 20:23Speaker 03

  You know, it's part of the reason why the majority of our trucks serve Liege waffles. It's because the weather in New York City, and in Belgium, too, is, you know, you're gonna get cold and rainy weather, and there's nothing like a hot Liege waffle to warm you up.

• 20:37Dan Pashman?

  So, we're just about to wrap up here. Marie Paul and Steve, you guys are sort of, you know, two generations of Belgian waffle purveyors. Marie Paul, you know, Steve sort of represents the next generation. I know some of the stuff he's doing is a little crazy for your taste, but I think he maybe has demonstrated to you that he has an appreciation for the traditional way. Do you have any advice for Steve?

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Try to maintain the consistency, at least in the authentic product that you carry. Always keep your, you know, consistency on that. And train your staff to not inform people wrong.

• 21:14Speaker 03

  Rest assured, when we hire new waffle masters, the Belgian-ness is a thing that is a major focus. Don't worry, your family's tradition that you started and the legacy is, it's in good hands, for sure.

• 21:40Dan Pashman?

  That's Steve Lipshutz from Waffles and Dingus in New York. They make great waffles. They have a cafe. They got food trucks around the city. Check them out at wafflesanddingus.com. And of course, Marie Paul Vermerch, her family introduced America to Belgian waffles. It was a real treat for me to get to talk to her.

• 22:00Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, it's pancake time. We revisit a classic Family Feud-themed call-in episode in which one man defends the sanctity of pancakes and his very upbringing. Stick around.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  And now, a delicious word from our sponsors.

• 22:21Dan Pashman?

  When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher-quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food, they also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done, the odors and stains have to be tackled, and I want to feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes, and then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there. And All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself, it lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house, we're very happy with it. And let me tell you, family of four, two teenagers,

• 23:04Dan Pashman?

  we do a lot of laundry, so we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number-one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear: All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day.

• 23:23Dan Pashman?

  Boar's Head brings to the deli the taste of deep-fried turkey. Look, whether or not you've had deep-fried turkey, I think you can probably understand that it's amazing. But making it is also a massive production. That's why Boar's Head now presents the Friar's Turkey Breast. One bite and flavor takes over. Perfectly seasoned, deliciously golden-fried. A backyard tradition, available at the deli only from Boar's Head. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite at your local Boar's Head deli. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

• 23:53Dan Pashman?

  Last year, right around this time, I got a new jacket from Quince, a lightweight fall jacket. And it has turned into my favorite jacket. And this is why you need a lightweight jacket, and probably a new one, because it's time to freshen up your look. You need a lightweight jacket from Quince, because the beauty of a lightweight jacket is you can wear it in the early fall, you can wear it in the early spring, but also it goes over a sweater, over a sweatshirt. And then suddenly, your lightweight jacket is a great accessory for pretty much the whole winter. Bottom line, when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. They make elevated everyday essentials using premium materials and designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. So, find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the

• 24:38Dan Pashman?

  Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the Sporkful. It's the best way to support the show.

• 25:01Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to the Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman, and I want to tell you about a super cool live event we have in the works. We're gonna be doing a run of shows at Little Island in Manhattan, which if you haven't been there, it's a beautiful park on a pier on the Hudson River. Rolling hills, trees, flowers, and a beautiful, grassy hillside, which is where we'll be doing our show. Now, the show we're doing is gonna be entitled "The Great Yogurt Feud." It's about Bulgaria's obsession with yogurt and why they lost out to their neighbors in Greece. These shows are Friday through Sunday, August 28th through 30th, 5:00 p.m. each night. Free shows, no tickets required. It's the same show every evening. There will be free yogurt samples, plus froyo on sale, so come on down to Little Island. More details

• 25:44Dan Pashman?

  at sporkful.com/live. Thanks. Time now for pancakes. What's the best way to eat them? Let's get into it.

• 25:55Dan Pashman?

  This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Now, let's get to the phones. Hi, who's this?

• 26:01Speaker 05

  Hi, this is Matt, calling from Dayton, Ohio.

• 26:04Dan Pashman?

  Hey, Matt. What would you like to talk about today?

• 26:06Speaker 05

  Well, I'm wanting to talk about the humble pancake. And when I was a kid, growing up, my brother, my younger brother, used to sit around the breakfast table on Saturday morning when we had pancakes. And my mom would make great pancakes, and I would, like a normal kid, put butter and syrup on the pancakes. And my brother would put butter, peanut butter, applesauce, jam, syrup, and fruit, sometimes all at the same time, on his pancake. And I always thought, you know, where do you draw the line? I mean, when does this no longer become a pancake? It's a shame that the ancient pancake is treated with

• 26:51Speaker 05

  such disregard.

• 26:54Dan Pashman?

  When you were a kid, and your brother was doing this with the pancakes and putting so much stuff on top, did you ever challenge him on it then? Was this ever a point of discussion or tension?

• 27:04Speaker 05

  Oh, absolutely.

• 27:06Dan Pashman?

  And what would he say in response?

• 27:08Speaker 05

  Well, he would say that he likes the variety.

• 27:11Dan Pashman?

  What does your brother say about pancakes now?

• 27:15Speaker 05

  I mean, I think, I think he has, like me, fond memories of, of his days growing up and eating pancakes, but he hasn't moved from his position of, of dumping everything on top of one.

• 27:29Dan Pashman?

  So you're more, your approach to pancakes is a little more minimalist, traditionalist?

• 27:35Speaker 05

  Right.

• 27:36Dan Pashman?

  His approach, a little more outlandish, a little more of an individualist?

• 27:41Speaker 05

  Right.

• 27:42Dan Pashman?

  Do you see those approaches manifested in your personalities today in other ways?

• 27:48Speaker 05

  I mean, yeah, you're, maybe you're really getting to the heart of it here. I do, I do to some degree. I mean, my brother's always been this individualist. I mean, he, he, he does his own thing, does it in his own way. And so, yeah, you, you may be right about that. I mean, during college, he lived in a cabin in Montana, which none of us did. And so, that, that type of individualist spirit, you know, maybe, maybe that did carry over into his love for pancakes.

• 28:16Dan Pashman?

  He wasn't writing any manifestos up there, was he?

• 28:19Speaker 05

  Not that I know of. But, but he has written like a, a, a novel, so maybe, you know, that's, that's, that's close, I'm sure.

• 28:28Dan Pashman?

  And so, explain to me exactly what your concern is. Are you, are you just upset that you feel like he's making something that's gross and that pancakes are better and a more minimalist approach? Or is it that you're, you're trying to defend the, the word pancake and that you feel like it's sort of being co-opted into this other, you know, and used to describe this other concoction that your brother came up with?

• 28:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think more the latter. And, I mean, if, if a pancake is truly going to be part of, like, the breakfast canon, I think we need to know its place. And, you know, when you, when you have all of these other things on top of it, we're really confusing the traditional breakfast dish of a pancake with something much more dessert-like.

• 29:11Dan Pashman?

  But, I mean, if, if making it dessert-like is your concern, I mean, you're putting butter and maple syrup on top of it.

• 29:17Speaker 05

  Right. And, and, and that's a valid argument, for sure.

• 29:20Dan Pashman?

  And it does have the word cake in it.

• 29:23Speaker 05

  It does. It does have the word cake in it. But, by the same token, I feel like a pancake should be something you should be able to grab even without butter and syrup. And it, it should still be a delicious thing to have. You know, you could take one even going out the door, and it should still be something you can enjoy.

• 29:41Dan Pashman?

  I don't disagree with that, but does that mean that when you put a lot of things on it and you can't grab it as you're running out the door, that it's no longer a pancake?

• 29:49Speaker 05

  Well, let me put it this way. When I see a pancake that's covered with tons of other stuff, the first thing I think to myself is whoever created that pancake is hiding something. I mean, the makers of that pancake were afraid to let the pancake shine because the pancake is faulty in some way.

• 30:08Dan Pashman?

  But see, now we're getting another heart of the matter here. All right, Matt? Because, you know, I asked you a minute ago, are you upset because you feel protective of the pancake as a food, or because you're worried about the terminology? And you said it was more about terminology, but, but I can hear in your voice and based on where you end up focusing that actually, I mean, one of the first words you said here in our conversation was "the humble pancake."

• 30:32Speaker 05

  [laughing]

• 30:35Dan Pashman?

  You have a certain feeling of, you, you feel protective of, of the pancake?

• 30:40Speaker 05

  And, but shouldn't we all be protective of these traditional breakfast foods?

• 30:45Dan Pashman?

  I got a few issues with that one sentence because the fact that it's a traditional breakfast food to me has always kind of been problematic, first of all.

• 30:57Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 30:58Dan Pashman?

  Like, you know, it's got the word cake in it. It's basically cake. The other thing you've said that sort of, I, I, I struggle with, I just don't get it with pancakes. Like, to me, they're, they're so ordinary. Even a really good pancake doesn't have that much going on. Like, I could name probably 50 bread-based products that I would rather have than a pancake.

• 31:21Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, aside from the fact that, that's crushing to hear, I, I, I think, I, I think that you are profoundly misguided. When, when you talk about bread-based products, the pancake does have a special place because of its standard shape and because of its fluffy texture that could be lost, you know? Were people like my brother able to run rampant over the definition of that, of that food?

• 31:53Dan Pashman?

  Who made the pancakes growing up in your household?

• 31:58Speaker 05

  It, it was kind of a family thing.

• 32:01Dan Pashman?

  And what are some of your memories of pancakes around your house on those Saturday mornings?

• 32:07Speaker 05

  Oh, a lot of my best memories of my childhood. I mean, you know, we'd have that huge steaming plate of pancakes. You know, we were all sitting around the table. Usually, the weekdays, we're rushing to get somewhere to school or wherever, so we'd just grab cereal. And so, on Saturday mornings, we had that time. We're all together as a family eating pancakes.

• 32:26Dan Pashman?

  Is it possible that maybe that's why you feel so protective of pancakes, Matt?

• 32:32Speaker 05

  Wow, I mean, that, boy, I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. You, you may be on to something.

• 32:38Dan Pashman?

  I, I mean...

• 32:39Speaker 05

  You, you think maybe I'm linking that to my, you know, that, that, that lost childhood, if you will, to my love of pancakes?

• 32:48Dan Pashman?

  Something like that. I mean, it, it just, it strikes me that you have a visceral reaction to protect pancakes. As if an attack on pancakes is an attack on your very upbringing.

• 33:01Speaker 05

  Right, right. You may be right.

• 33:03Dan Pashman?

  And do you have a significant other in your life? Do you have a, a family?

• 33:07Speaker 05

  I do, yep. I have a, I have a wife and a, and a young daughter.

• 33:11Dan Pashman?

  What do you guys do on Saturday mornings?

• 33:13Speaker 05

  We often have, actually, waffles.

• 33:16Dan Pashman?

  [laughing]

• 33:18Speaker 05

  Hey, it's, I know, I know. It's, it's not, it's, it's maybe, my wife's a big fan of waffles. So, you know, in, in the interest of loving her and being supportive of her, I let her choose the, the breakfast food.

• 33:37Dan Pashman?

  So you, so basically, tradition and family and pancakes meant a lot to you until your wife came into the picture, and then you threw all that out the window and went to waffles?

• 33:47Speaker 05

  Well, I still think that I'll be able to establish a bulwark in my daughter's life. I mean, she's only seven months old at this point. So, I believe that as she grows up, you know, covertly, I can kind of establish that love, and then we'll outnumber, of course, my wife at some point.

• 34:04Dan Pashman?

  Okay. All right. So, Matt, before I let you go, I guess I do need to give you a definitive answer here. I would say, as to you and your brother, you guys are different people, and your approaches to pancakes reflect that. So, I think you should accept your brother and his pancakes as they are. As to the question of terminology, I guess this is one of those situations where I think that the word pancakes has two meanings. There's the food pancake, and there's the dish pancakes. Okay? Now, the food pancake is just pancake batter poured into a pan and cooked, and that is a pancake. And no matter what you

• 34:47Dan Pashman?

  put on top of it, that round thing that you took out of a pan will always be a pancake. You can't call it something else. That being said, if you take a pancake and cover it with butter and syrup and peanut butter and jelly and applesauce and fruit, is that still an order of pancakes? Or is that some other concoction in which a pancake is one component? Where is the line there drawn? Do you want to take a crack at, at a rule?

• 35:27Speaker 05

  I guess, I would say if the volume of the, what is on top of the pancake exceeds the volume of the pancake or pancakes themselves, then you have something that is no longer a pancake. It's more of a dessert cake or a, or a, or some other dish entirely.

• 35:47Dan Pashman?

  So by that definition, I could take a stack of three pancakes. I could spread butter on top. I could pour syrup on top. I could spread peanut butter and jelly on top. And that would probably still not equal the mass of those three pancakes.

• 35:59Speaker 05

  And, and I'm, and I'm okay with giving a little ground there. I mean, any way we can get more pancakes on your plate, that's okay with me.

• 36:07Dan Pashman?

  I'll go along with that. And if the percentage of pancake dips below 50%, then, you know, depending on what's on top, you got to decide what you're going to call it.

• 36:16Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 36:17Dan Pashman?

  Okay. All right. All right, fair enough. Well, Matt, in Ohio, thanks so much for the call. Enjoy your pancakes and/or waffles.

• 36:24Speaker 05

  All right. I appreciate it. Thanks for what you do.

• 36:27Dan Pashman?

  My pleasure. Thank you. Take care.

• 36:28Speaker 05

  All right. Bye.

• 36:30Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, a husband and wife call in to ask me to settle a cookie-related conflict. My response could save their marriage. Stick around.

• 36:58Speaker 06

  Ooh, advertisements. Yummy.

• 37:03Speaker 06

  With the Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/five for details.

• 37:29Speaker 07

  Don't you wish everything was more rewarding? With Rakuten, almost everything is. You can earn cash back on those shoes you've been wanting. You can save on the next trip you book. You can cash in on groceries. Just shop your favorite brands and save. It's that easy. And there are several ways to get paid, including PayPal, check, points, and gift cards. So go ahead. Take a trip. Fill that cart. Join a world of rewards. Go to rakuten.com or get the app.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. From roof repair to emergency plumbing and more. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at angie.com.

• 38:18Dan Pashman?

  Let's get right back to the phones. Hi, who's this?

• 38:21Speaker 04

  Hi, this is Chloe from Baltimore, Maryland.

• 38:23Dan Pashman?

  Hey Chloe, what can I do for you?

• 38:25Speaker 04

  So I am an avid home baker, and I bake for my husband almost weekly, and all from scratch. And we run into a problem that I refer to as the baked good freshness threshold. The thing about Jason is, is that he would eat a, you know, three-week-old cookie if given the chance, when it's crumbling. And I feel that there is a certain freshness threshold for, for every baked good.

• 39:02Dan Pashman?

  Right. I refer to this in my book as the window of optimal consumption.

• 39:06Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:07Dan Pashman?

  Now, I don't know, like, are you one of those households where, like, you always like to have cookies or brownies or cheesecake or something? Like, that you always want a home-baked sweet to be somewhere available?

• 39:18Speaker 04

  Yes, I feel like that's part of why Jason married me.

• 39:24Dan Pashman?

  Well, I'm sure that you have many other redeeming qualities.

• 39:28Dan Pashman?

  And you said at the very outset, Chloe, that you bake for your husband. Do you also eat these foods?

• 39:35Speaker 04

  I do, but I respect the threshold. And he gets frustrated with that.

• 39:41Dan Pashman?

  So you only want them when they're really good, when they're at their best, and Jason eats them when they're not as good?

• 39:47Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:47Dan Pashman?

  A couple of, like, what seem to me to be very obvious solutions. One is, you could just cut your recipes in half.

• 39:56Speaker 04

  I never thought about that, and that seems so simple.

• 40:02Dan Pashman?

  But if you cut your recipes in half, it means you're gonna have to bake twice as much.

• 40:06Speaker 04

  True.

• 40:06Dan Pashman?

  How do you feel about that?

• 40:08Speaker 04

  I, I'm usually open to that, depending on what else is going on in our lives.

• 40:15Dan Pashman?

  All right, I want to delve into this a little bit further. Is Jason there?

• 40:19Speaker 04

  He is here.

• 40:20Dan Pashman?

  Okay, can I talk to him for a minute, please?

• 40:22Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 40:25Speaker 05

  Hi, Dan.

• 40:26Dan Pashman?

  Hey, Jason, how you doing?

• 40:27Speaker 05

  I'm good, how are you?

• 40:29Dan Pashman?

  I'm doing well, thank you. So Chloe set up the situation for me, and I want to sort of get a little more information from you. When Chloe stops eating whatever batch of baked goods she made for that week after the first or second day, she said that that upsets you. Why?

• 40:49Speaker 05

  Well, I wouldn't, I think that's an exaggeration to say that it upsets me.

• 40:55Speaker 05

  But I do, I am, I do kind of like question it, you know, like,

• 41:00Speaker 05

  you know, why would you stop eating these? I should also state that, you know, for the most part, like, nine times out of 10, Chloe doesn't eat any of the stuff that she bakes. Zero. So I am the only person eating it in the house. And so at, you know, in two days, like, if something disappears because it's reached her threshold for freshness,

• 41:23Speaker 05

  I find that, you know, particularly problematic because she's not eating those things, I'm eating them. And so should we really be disposing of the baked goods on her perceived threshold of freshness? Or on my perceived threshold of freshness, since I am the one doing the majority of the consuming?

• 41:44Dan Pashman?

  So when Chloe throws out baked goods that she thinks are stale, but you think are still good, even though you're the only one eating them, why do you think she's doing that?

• 42:01Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, you know, she, her argument is that she only wants me to have the very best. And I get that. But I also don't want it to go to waste.

• 42:11Dan Pashman?

  But like, but let's say that Chloe were to cut all her recipes in half and bake twice as often. Putting aside for a minute that she's now baking for you twice as often, just in terms of your eating experience, would you like that more? Or would it be part of you that would, like, miss the week-old cookies?

• 42:32Speaker 05

  I, I might like that more, but I would also, you know, like, I wouldn't, it's a lot of work. We've got an eight-month-old, you know, and so she's, she's got her hands full. You know, it's not like this condition in our household that she bakes or something. Just to bake more to keep the baked goods in a smaller window of freshness, I, I, you know, I kind of feel like that's ridiculous. But I would eat it, you know? If she bakes them, I'll eat them.

• 42:56Dan Pashman?

  Way to take one for the team, Jason.

• 42:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, thanks.

• 43:00Speaker 05

  It's all I can do, you know? I'm, I'm here to service.

• 43:04Dan Pashman?

  All right. Jason, can I talk to Chloe again for a minute, please?

• 43:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  Hi, Dan.

• 43:14Dan Pashman?

  Hey, Chloe. So it's interesting to me because you bake all this stuff mostly for Jason. And that's like a way that you take care of him and show him love, right?

• 43:30Speaker 04

  Sure, yes.

• 43:32Dan Pashman?

  And when you throw away the cookies because you think they're getting stale, you feel like, again, like that, you're trying to take care of him. You want only the best for him.

• 43:41Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 43:42Dan Pashman?

  I think it's also interesting, though, that Jason feels that by eating stale cookies, which he doesn't mind too much, he's showing love to you.

• 43:55Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 43:55Dan Pashman?

  Because he is showing that he appreciates the cookies that you made for him, and he doesn't want to, you know, he doesn't want to throw them out.

• 44:03Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:05Dan Pashman?

  And yet, in this sort of one specific area of your relationship, the ways in which you're trying to show love to each other are not matching up.

• 44:14Speaker 04

  Right. You know, I, I'm flattered that he, that he would want to eat, you know, a three-week-old cookie that I've made, that it's, that it's still good to him, that he would want to eat it, and that he appreciates the work that went into it. But it's also, you know, that's not, it's not good. That's not how I intended it to be consumed. So, yeah, we're at, it's a, it's a conflict.

• 44:42Dan Pashman?

  Well, and I, and, but I think, you know, it's a, it's probably a not uncommon conflict in a general sense. You know?

• 44:50Speaker 04

  True.

• 44:50Dan Pashman?

  Like that, you know, you are two people with, you both have good intentions, but you're showing, you're, you're, you're trying to, like, sort of take care of each other in, each in the way that the other one doesn't want to be taken care of.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  True. Yeah, I never thought about it that way.

• 45:06Dan Pashman?

  So, you know, and that's hard. It's a hard thing, you know?

• 45:10Dan Pashman?

  I, I'll be so curious to see what'll happen when your daughter starts eating cookies.

• 45:15Speaker 04

  Me too. Yeah, I'm curious about that, too, that if, if Jason will kind of pass on his,

• 45:23Speaker 04

  you know, disrespect of the, of the freshness threshold to her.

• 45:29Dan Pashman?

  But I mean, I also wonder about you, Chloe, because I would be a little concerned, like, if one way that you show love to Jason is through your food, which is a way a lot of people express love for people in their families, then it would, you probably show love to your daughter in a similar way, right?

• 45:45Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, definitely.

• 45:47Dan Pashman?

  And if you only want the best for Jason, you're only gonna want the best for your daughter, which is very noble, and your heart's in the right place, but I get worried that, like, you're setting an impossible standard for yourself.

• 45:57Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 45:59Dan Pashman?

  I think that, Chloe, you can cut yourself a little more slack.

• 46:03Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 46:04Dan Pashman?

  If Jason's happy with the cookies, four or five days old, go put your feet up.

• 46:11Speaker 04

  Great.

• 46:12Dan Pashman?

  Wait, wait another day to cook the next batch of cookies, you know?

• 46:16Speaker 04

  Great. I think I just needed that permission.

• 46:19Dan Pashman?

  Yes, I think.

• 46:20Speaker 04

  From someone.

• 46:21Dan Pashman?

  Well, I, I, as, as a person with no real culinary or psychological experience, I hereby give you that permission.

• 46:29Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 46:30Dan Pashman?

  Well, Chloe, go, go enjoy some leisure time.

• 46:34Speaker 04

  Thank you, Dan.

• 46:40Dan Pashman?

  So about a week after we recorded that call, I got a package in the mail. And based on the return address in Baltimore, I was pretty sure that it was from a listener. So I figured it was either someone's lingerie or anthrax. Turns out, it was cookies from Chloe. She sent brown butter, white chocolate, and grapefruit cookies. That's one kind of cookie, with brown butter, white chocolate, and grapefruit inside. They were great, just like a little bit of tart. Mmm, so good. But the cookies that stole our hearts were Chloe's Old Bay Corn Cookies. They were sweet and salty, buttery and peppery, just, mmm, just amazing. She says she adapted the recipe for corn cookies from the Mama Fuku Milk Bar Cookbook. And she added the Old Bay because it's literally illegal to cook anything

• 47:23Dan Pashman?

  within Baltimore city limits without putting Old Bay on it. And Chloe was nice enough to share the recipe for her Old Bay Corn Cookies, so we'll put that in the blog post for this episode at sporkful.com. This show is a production of WNYC and The Sporkful. It's produced by Anne Sannie and me. Our engineer is Irene Trudell. We get help from Tim Righeri. Special thanks to Paula Schuman. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Hi, this is Amy from Austin, Texas, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 48:04Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful.

• 48:49Dan Pashman?

  Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Mr. Monopoly here. Miss me? Monopoly is back at McDonald's with millions of prizes. A 2027 Jeep Cherokee, a Carnival Cruise vacation, gift cards from DoorDash and Best Buy. Feel and play in the McDonald's app. Get your bag. No purchase necessary. 50 U.S. and D.C. age 18 plus. See playatmcd.com for rules and playatmcd.com/amoe for info on playing without purchase by mail by November 2nd. Chance card game ends November 8th. Game ends November 22nd, 2026. See rules for prize details. Monopoly is a registered trademark of Hasbro. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. From roof repair to emergency plumbing and more. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at angie.com.