The Seafood Proxy Battle Between China And Japan

Last year, in the midst of a political spat between China and Japan, China enacted a ban on importing Japanese seafood and warned Chinese citizens that visiting Japan was unsafe. But the impact of these policies hasn’t been quite what China intended.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

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• 0:44Dan Pashman?

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• 1:18Dan Pashman?

  We got an opera situation here.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  I know, I was just gonna say.

• 1:26Dan Pashman?

  This guy singing while grilling and blowtorching crab.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Crab, yeah. That's one way to get our attention, right?

• 1:35Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Quick note before we get to the show that we have a live taping coming up in Boston, my guest will be Irene Lee, co-founder of May May Dumplings, Matt Shearer, who you may know better as Reporter Matt for Instagram and TikTok, and Ian Cos, who put together that great series called Catching the Codfather that we featured. I mean, this is an all-star lineup, okay? May 1st at WBUR Cities Base in Boston. Get info and tickets at sporkful.com/live. All right, let's get to it. This week, we're sharing the second of two shows that I recorded on a recent trip to Beijing and Tokyo.

• 2:17Dan Pashman?

  Last week, we explored how the restaurant scene in China has exploded over the last 40 years. Today, we're going to look at the relationship between China and Japan. These two nations have a long history of conflict, but things are especially tense right now. And that's playing out in a lot of ways, including with seafood. But as I learned when I was there, despite all this geopolitical strife, the situation on the ground in both countries is more complicated. China and Japan have long been intertwined culturally, economically, and geographically. In my few days in both Beijing and Tokyo, I tried to get a better sense, not just of how new policies are affecting people, but how people in both countries are adapting. We'll start off in Japan.

• 2:59Dan Pashman?

  There was one thing I wanted to do in Tokyo so badly that I was willing to get up at 4 o'clock in the morning to see it. It's the wholesale tuna auction, which happens at Toyosu Market early every morning. It's the largest fish market in the world and a popular tourist destination for those willing to wake up so early. The market has observation windows overlooking the floor. When I first got to the windows, the scene below kind of took my breath away. Rows and rows and rows of gigantic raw fish, some of them as big as a canoe, all waiting to be sold. Their tails are cut off, so buyers can see a cross section of the meat, inspecting it for quality and fat content. The whole thing goes really fast. They're probably selling one fish every 10 seconds. And there are all kind of hand motions going on during the auctions.

• 3:41Dan Pashman?

  My guide, Toshi Sakai, translates the auctioneer, who points to one bidder after another to push prices higher. As he points around, he calls you, you, one more you.

• 3:52Dan Pashman?

  The most surprising thing I learned on this tour is that this market sells tuna from all over the world. I assumed it was just all Japanese tuna being sold. But turns out tuna season is different in different places. In September and October, the best tuna comes from New England, because the tuna have been chasing mackerel up the East Coast all summer long and getting big from eating so much. Then, as the water gets colder, they start to put on extra fat. When fishermen catch a big tuna, they have a broker who calls all over the world to get the best price, which is often in Tokyo, because there are so many buyers there. So yes, the tuna then flies all the way from Boston to Tokyo, where it might get sold to a supplier who eventually sells the fish to a restaurant in New York. So you could go out to eat in the US and the server might say, "We just had this tuna flown in from Tokyo."

• 4:36Dan Pashman?

  And you'd be so impressed, but it turns out the fish was actually caught down the street. But still, the reason why restaurants like to say fish has been flown in from Japan is that it gives it a lot of cachet, right? Japan is known around the world for its fish, which also makes its fish a perfect target for China to try to exert some leverage over Japan. I met up with someone to talk more about that. Can you just talk a little bit so I can get a look?

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Sure. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. We are at Sukiji Fish Market in Tokyo.

• 5:05Dan Pashman?

  You sound like someone who's done this before.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Done it a little bit, a little bit.

• 5:09Dan Pashman?

  This is Karumi Mori. She's an independent journalist now after spending several years working for Bloomberg, covering Tokyo for an English-speaking audience. Karumi and I met up at Sukiji Market in Tokyo. It opened in 1935, and it used to be where the tuna auction happened, until it moved a few years ago to Toyo-Su. But Sukiji's little retail shops and stalls have remained. It's now a place where lots of tourists come for prepared foods, but it's also a place locals might come to grab lunch or something they can cook for dinner. Before we actually went into the market, I asked Karumi to give me a little background on the situation between Japan and China.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Of course, Japan and China, there's so much historical context to this relationship. I mean, geographically, we're close. We also share a lot of the same cultural kind of roots.

• 5:53Dan Pashman?

  You see those shared roots in food and culture. Ramen comes from Chinese noodles. Gyoza come from Chinese dumplings. Japan has multiple huge Chinatowns. And China has tons of clothing stores featuring Japanese fashion. Japanese, meanwhile, borrows Chinese characters in its writing system. But as I said, the countries have also found themselves at odds. In modern times, things really started to heat up in the 1890s during the Sino-Japanese War. When Japan won that war, they became the major power in the region. They occupied Korea and gained control over Taiwan. During their invasion of China, Japanese forces committed brutal atrocities, killing many Chinese civilians, including in the Nanjing massacre. When Japan surrendered at the end of World War II, they agreed to give up Korea and Taiwan.

• 6:36Dan Pashman?

  But there have been international disputes about Taiwan's status since, which will become important later in this story. So China and Japan never really made up. The feelings are still pretty raw, as Karumi saw when people on social media responded to her reporting.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  I would get DMs from some Chinese users telling me, you know, I shouldn't be talking about China, or, you know, I should be careful because of the wartime atrocities, and you should be ashamed to be Japanese. And so, I mean, I've definitely firsthand have experienced a bit of the hostility. Of course, I have a lot of Chinese friends as well, but I think there is the backdrop of that, which leads into more of the modern tensions that we do feel.

• 7:19Dan Pashman?

  Over the past few decades, China has become the regional power, and there's been an uneasy coexistence between the two countries. They're trading partners, including when it comes to seafood. In fact, until a few years ago, China was the biggest importer of Japanese fish. But the seafood trade turned rocky in 2011. That year, there was a tsunami and earthquake in Fukushima that killed 20,000 Japanese. It also caused a nuclear meltdown at a power plant there. It was a huge environmental disaster. Radiation was released into the ground and the water surrounding the power plant. The lasting impacts are still not totally clear. At the time, Kurumi was living in the US, but she visited Japan often.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  I definitely felt a sense of worry. So when I would travel back here, you know, I mean, we would still eat the food, but maybe there was, in the back of our heads, a bit of a concern.

• 8:03Dan Pashman?

  The Japanese government's official line is that water and food from the area are now safe. But there are some studies that show there has been contamination. It's just hard to say what the long-term impact is. When Fukushima happened in 2011, China banned seafood imports from surrounding prefectures. So did many other countries. Then, a couple of years ago, Japan announced it would release treated radioactive wastewater from the disaster into the Pacific Ocean. China responded by banning all seafood from Japan. Before that ban, China accounted for about 20% of Japanese seafood exports. After the ban, it dropped to effectively zero. Then, last year, it looked like the trade freeze was about to thaw. China announced it was lifting the seafood ban, that they would slowly start allowing more imports from Japan.

• 8:47Dan Pashman?

  That was short-lived, because in the fall, the new Japanese prime minister was asked a question.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Right, so November 7th, and this is a big date.

• 8:55Dan Pashman?

  That's how big of a deal it is that you know the date.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Yes, Friday, it was a Friday.

• 8:59Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  And the prime minister, her name is Prime Minister Takeuchi, she was in the parliament and she was answering a question about a hypothetical invasion, hypothetical action of China overtaking Taiwan. And this question actually is raised to prime ministers over the years, and in the past, most prime ministers like Ishiba have kind of just said no comment. But Takeuchi did kind of answer it. She said, and I have my notes here, she said, "The mainland used to force on Taiwan could constitute a, quote, 'survival-threatening situation for Japan.'" And to maybe the most of the world, it doesn't kind of sound like much. I mean, it sounds kind of obvious that they might want to protect if there's some sort

• 9:41Speaker 01

  of attack nearby, but China took that as a major, major threat, as something that, you know, Japan maybe doesn't recognize that it's one China. And so to them, it triggered this huge reaction.

• 9:57Dan Pashman?

  Beijing was not happy. Even though Taiwan sees itself as its own nation, the Chinese government views Taiwan as part of China. So these comments by the Japanese prime minister really struck a nerve. Just weeks later, China reinstated its ban on all seafood imports from Japan, claiming it was because all of a sudden the water needed more monitoring after Fukushima, even though as far as contamination was concerned, nothing had changed. Most experts agree it was a thinly veiled response to Japan's comments about Taiwan, especially because at the same time, Beijing warned Chinese tourists not to go to Japan because they said it wasn't safe, in part because of an increase in bear attacks. Still, since that warning, Chinese tourism has dropped by nearly half. The Chinese government's decision to go after

• 10:42Dan Pashman?

  Japan's fishing industry was noteworthy. While Tokyo is home to the world's largest fish market, Japan's fishing industry isn't actually that big a part of the country's economy. But fish has tremendous cultural significance. Japanese people eat a lot of fish. It's a huge part of their cuisine. And the quality of their fish is a point of national pride. So for China to say, "We don't need your stinking fish", proverbial shots fired.

• 11:06Dan Pashman?

  How much has the ban on fish affected the Japanese fish market?

• 11:12Speaker 01

  I have a friend, a family friend, who operates in Toyosu Market. They've been selling fish since 1964. And they've said like it impacts definitely the prices of our fish, right? And so if China's not buying, then maybe we need to lower the prices a bit because we have a surplus. But at the same time, they adjusted their business strategy. So now they weren't looking to China so much as the as the main consumer. They were looking at other countries. And so now he's like, it doesn't even matter what happens with China because we've done enough to kind of offset some of this. Because he's like, this could happen anytime. Like China can impose a ban tomorrow and next week and next year, and who knows?

• 11:54Dan Pashman?

  So Japanese fish sellers have adapted, and the numbers bear this out. Since China imposed its bans, Japanese seafood exports have actually increased. I was still curious, though, to see if the folks at Tsukiji Market have felt any other impacts from the latest tensions with China. All right, should we walk, walk around the market?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 12:10Dan Pashman?

  And check it out, see what people are saying?

• 12:11Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 12:12Dan Pashman?

  Kurumi and I cross the street. We're now at Tsukiji Outer Market, which is sort of the outer perimeter of the old market. There are all these stalls, multiple blocks of stalls selling all kinds of things. I see some gigantic king crab legs.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yes, it's the season for king crabs. Oh my God, look at that, so thick.

• 12:30Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, that's gigantic.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  Gigantic.

• 12:33Dan Pashman?

  These crab legs are easily two feet long. There are stalls selling wagyu that they grill to order, scallops and shrimp on grills, little paper boats filled with slices of raw fatty tuna. It's almost like people running stands here were like, what are the things that every tourist keeps asking us for?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 12:47Dan Pashman?

  Wagyu and uni, okay, let's just sell.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  And tuna toro.

• 12:50Dan Pashman?

  Right, let's just sell those three things.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 12:53Dan Pashman?

  The vendors here at Tsukiji rely on tourism for their livelihoods. So I want to know, have they seen any impact from the drop in Chinese tourism? Kurumi suggests we ask the owners of a stall that's especially popular among Chinese tourists.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  There's this store called Oh Mia. It's a meat shop and they do this really nice roast pork. And I used to see like a horde of Chinese tourists there.

• 13:13Dan Pashman?

  We arrive at the roast pork stall. Oh, that does look good.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  There's a picture of a former sumo wrestler eating this roast pork. So this is Japanese chashu.

• 13:23Dan Pashman?

  But this is the same type of pork that you would see like thin sliced over ramen.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that's right. We do that as well, but we can also eat it in big chunks like this. And like I said, I like to eat it over rice at home with some scallions on top and drizzle that sauce all over.

• 13:39Dan Pashman?

  Kurumi asked the person working at the shop if she noticed any changes in Chinese tourism here. She says most of her customers are locals because the stand also sells meats to cook at home.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  But she said that the whole feel of Tiki Market, she does think there are way less Chinese tourists recently since November.

• 13:56Dan Pashman?

  And has that affected her business?

• 13:58Speaker 01

  She said she doesn't feel a big impact on the business. Like there are fewer Chinese tourists, but maybe, you know, other tourists like the Americans are making up for it. And it's kind of funny because we keep talking about like the tensions between China and Japan, but you can see the cultures are so integrated and the people on the ground, it's like, we love Chinese culture and Chinese food and obviously the Chinese people love coming here and enjoying the Japanese culture and the Japanese food. And so, again, it is very geopolitical what's happening, but in everyday terms, people kind of shrug off what's happening in a way.

• 14:34Dan Pashman?

  Kurumi tells me that before the recent warning against Chinese tourists visiting Japan, she met some tourists from Shanghai in line at this shop.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  And they were saying, you know, they love pork and chashu actually comes from China. So, I mean, it's like a Japanese version, I guess.

• 14:50Dan Pashman?

  Japanese chashu is related to Cantonese char sue, a similar type of roast pork, another way that Chinese and Japanese cultures overlap. But that's one interesting thing you were saying is that as much as these two countries have had a lot of hostilities back and forth over decades, there's also a lot of similarities with the cultures.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure, right? I mean, if you look at the roots, of course, it's all, you know, very, very similar. And I think a lot of the food and we also have so many Chinese restaurants, there's a huge Chinese.

• 15:17Dan Pashman?

  While we're here, Kurumi's gonna buy some roast pork to cook at home. But luckily for me.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  I'm asking for like a little sliver for you to taste it.

• 15:28Dan Pashman?

  Oh great, we got the tray, we got it all.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  But we got a little table too.

• 15:31Dan Pashman?

  Oh wow, this is fancy.

• 15:35Dan Pashman?

  Alright, time for a taste of the pork.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  I like to put tons of sauce on it.

• 15:42Dan Pashman?

  It's so tender.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  It's quite fatty, but I I love it.

• 15:46Dan Pashman?

  But even like the fact that it's cold.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:49Dan Pashman?

  And it's still so soft and tender.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Imagine when you like regal it grill it by yourself at home. Oh, so good.

• 15:58Dan Pashman?

  Yes, this episode's about fish, but Karumi offered me pork. What do you want me to do?

• 16:04Dan Pashman?

  We talked to a few other vendors at the market and they share similar sentiments. There are about the same number of total tourists, even if they're coming from different places. And with China's ban on Japanese fish, the industry has been able to make up for any losses by selling more to other countries. I think the Japanese attitude towards these Chinese policies was summed up by one Japanese woman I spoke with, who said, we don't care. They care. But as I learned, in China, the seafood import ban has had a much bigger impact. Just not in the way that Japanese woman may have thought. Coming up, I visit a sushi restaurant in Beijing to see and eat the surprising ways the ban has changed things. Stick around.

• 16:46Speaker 02

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• 16:51Dan Pashman?

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• 18:19Dan Pashman?

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• 18:25Dan Pashman?

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• 20:01Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to This Forkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Last week was our first episode in this two-part series from China and Japan. In that one, I explore China's restaurant scene, which didn't even exist 40 years ago. I go to a very high-end restaurant where they serve me a 16-course tasting menu. Then the next day, I go somewhere that's pretty much the exact opposite. It's a popular hot pot chain called Heidi Lau. It's part restaurant, part entertainment venue, and even part spa? There's flashing screens, ring lights, and other surprises. What are these robots doing, though?

• 20:31Speaker 03

  They are like designating the dishes and like preparing the dishes.

• 20:36Dan Pashman?

  The robots prepare the dishes?

• 20:37Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 20:38Dan Pashman?

  Oh, man, we're all doomed, yeah, boo. We also learn about Heidi Lau's birthday song, which has replaced the traditional birthday song among many young people in China. Check that one out. It's up now. Okay, back to the seafood trade wars between China and Japan. As we heard in the first half, Japanese fish sellers have been able to adapt to the Chinese import ban by selling to different markets. But what does the ban look like in China? I went to a Japanese restaurant in Beijing to see how geopolitical tensions are trickling down to the food. I meet up with Wei Hang Li, who you heard in our last episode. I love food, of course, and I'm for the writer. And now I also have a podcast named Omniverse Table. Wei Hang's podcast co-host Jason Tang also joins us for this meal.

• 21:21Speaker 04

  I work in a US bank here in Beijing. But my major hobby is I use a lot of part-time to restaurant critic. Not only to review the restaurant, but I put a lot of content on how the food are coming from, the story behind the ingredient.

• 21:38Dan Pashman?

  Wei Hang and Jason have brought me to a Japanese restaurant called Akimoto. It's a nice place with a dining area and a sushi bar that has six or eight seats. Jason, Wei Hang, and I haven't discussed it, but I quickly realize I'm in for an omakase, which means no menus. We'll eat whatever the chef selects for us. And Wei Hang, what is this? Wow, it's my favorite, one of the favorite greens or vegetarian ingredients during the winter time is winter. Bamboo. So it will taste very sweet and all ah just to eat it. Stop asking, just eat it.

• 22:16Dan Pashman?

  So sweet and ju- is this tempura?

• 22:18Speaker 04

  No.

• 22:19Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  It's a tempura.

• 22:20Dan Pashman?

  Right, oh, but it's so like light. In America, we have tempura, but it's like very heavy. There's not a plate coming.

• 22:27Speaker 04

  Basically, the next dish, they got aged grouper. So grouper is one of the the large one. In Japanese, they called kuai. If you don't age it, like this one aged probably for ten days. It's very difficult to try.

• 22:46Dan Pashman?

  Difficult to chew.

• 22:47Speaker 04

  Chew, yeah, difficult to chew.

• 22:49Dan Pashman?

  Well, this grouper must have been perfectly aged because it was tender and a little sweet, almost buttery.

• 22:57Dan Pashman?

  Japanese restaurants really started popping up in China in the nineties, mostly owned by Chinese people. And those owners often adapted Japanese dishes to Chinese tastes.

• 23:05Speaker 04

  It's a Chinese type of Japanese food. So in that restaurant, basically, you are not using the Japanese ingredient.

• 23:13Dan Pashman?

  Eventually, Japanese people started opening Japanese restaurants here, catering more to Japanese business people in China. When Japanese restaurants were first opening in China, what was the attitude? What was the perception of Chinese people to Japanese food and culture? Was there also some, any hostility or doubt or question because of the mixed relationship between China and Japan?

• 23:40Speaker 04

  I don't think so. I I think in the eighties and nineties, there's a honeymoon period between China and Japan. Not only we start to have Japanese restaurant in China and also if you look at televisions. Station, you have the Japanese animation, a lot has been. So at that time, I think the people are more open.

• 24:02Dan Pashman?

  Jason says that as Japanese food was taking off in China, these restaurants were mostly not importing ingredients from Japan. They were using what they could get locally and importing some ingredients from Europe. Then there was the next wave of Japanese restaurants.

• 24:14Speaker 04

  So the business model at that time in Beijing was the Japanese restaurant will do buffet. You pay one price, like maybe seventy to one hundred US dollar, but you can eat all you want. And then there is another small boom of teppanyaki.

• 24:30Dan Pashman?

  Like a grilling, like hibachi?

• 24:32Speaker 04

  Like hibachi, yes. So people think the Japanese restaurant is fancy but expensive.

• 24:38Dan Pashman?

  The chef at the restaurant we're in is Chinese. His name is Min Chang Zhang. And Jason tells me that Chef Chang got his start in two thousand and four, working in one of those expensive Japanese all-you-can-eat buffets.

• 24:49Speaker 04

  I think in that Japanese restaurant is still old style, is not using any Japanese important ingredient.

• 24:56Dan Pashman?

  Then there was a turning point for Japanese places in China, the two thousand eight Beijing Summer Olympics.

• 25:01Speaker 04

  After the Beijing Olympic Games, there are at least ten years when the fine dining industry in China has been grow a lot. And people have become rich, people want to find more expensive, more authentic way of having the fine dining, especially Japan. People are going abroad to visiting Japan more and more often. People have become more educated on the Japanese foods. And then they come back to China in Beijing and Shanghai. They want to find a similar restaurant which they can do the regular visit. So at that time, they start to have this fancy hand, omakase type of the Japanese restaurant opened,

• 25:44Speaker 04

  up to per person three hundred dollar to five hundred dollar per person.

• 25:48Dan Pashman?

  Chef Chang got a new job at one of these fancier places.

• 25:50Speaker 04

  Another fancy Japanese restaurant called Lü Yü Chuan. So that is one of the first two Japanese restaurant here in Beijing.

• 26:00Speaker 03

  Asian adopt Japanese importing ingredients. So at that time, they import ingredient from Japan twice per week. At that time, everyone says Japanese ingredients is good.

• 26:12Dan Pashman?

  Soon, more Japanese restaurants in China followed suit, importing fish and other ingredients from Japan. Even though these items were more expensive, chefs now preferred them because they believed they were higher quality. And this belief spread to customers. Even many Chinese thought Chinese fish wasn't as good.

• 26:29Dan Pashman?

  When the Fukushima disaster happened and the first partial ban on Japanese seafood imports went into effect, Wei Hung says the chefs of these Japanese restaurants started freaking out. If we don't have Japanese fish, we can run a Japanese restaurants. Right, people are almost saying, if we don't have Japanese fish, how can we make Japanese food? Yeah, exactly. And does China don't have good fish? I don't think so, but right? Right, so people had doubts. Yeah, during that time, I interviewed some, I write articles and I interview a lot of the Japanese chefs. They are felt crazy. They think, oh, it's just like a tragedy because they don't have fish. Once the panic subsided,

• 27:14Dan Pashman?

  these chefs understood they had to adapt to their new reality. They had to make some changes. We get to see a couple of examples of these changes in our meal at this restaurant. First, with Spanish mackerel. It's a common menu item in Japan, so Japanese restaurants in China used to import it. But today, they get Spanish mackerel from around Dongshan Island in southern China, which Chef Chang says has an abundant supply. Still, figuring out they can get Spanish mackerel from their own seas only solved part of the problem. Because sushi-grade fish isn't just about where it comes from, it's also about how the fish is handled once it's caught. Jason says Spanish mackerel in particular is very delicate.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  And when you caught it, the fresh of this fish has losing so quickly.

• 27:55Dan Pashman?

  Oh, it doesn't, it doesn't last very long.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  Yes, so that's also the reason why when we eat this fish.

• 28:02Speaker 04

  In Chinese cuisine, we normally do a little bit heavy seasoning.

• 28:07Dan Pashman?

  But now, Chinese fishermen have changed how they handle the mackerel after they catch it. They kill the fish immediately using Japanese techniques called ikejime and shinkijime. The Japanese use this method in part because it's considered more humane, kills the fish very quickly, and in part because it stops the surge of stress hormones that a fish releases after being caught. Reducing these hormones wards off decay and helps the fish retain freshness and flavor. In a recent article in The New Yorker, a Japanese-American chef named Junya Yamazaki said this technique brings out the best characteristic of every species. Reporter Hannah Goldfield says that Yamazaki has taught the technique to so many fishermen in Southern California that it's transformed the fish sold in many top restaurants in L.A. Chinese fishermen made other changes after the import ban started.

• 28:51Dan Pashman?

  They used to put the fish they caught on ice to transport it, but now they put it in ice water. That way, the fish float, so when the boat rocks back and forth, the water's more like a cushion. The fish don't get beat up in transit. So, all along, Spanish mackerel was available in China, but the fishermen needed a little education on how to handle it properly for Japanese food. In some ways, this change to where the fish comes from could make sushi in China better, even if it's the same fish in both places, because it's coming from closer, it's going to be fresher.

• 29:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. So, because if you import this fish from Japan, we don't have any direct flight to import agricultural goods from Japan. So it normally coming to Hong Kong, Shanghai, and then they need a second stop to Beijing. So Beijing normally, when we get the Japanese fish, is one day behind Shanghai or Shenzhen or Hong Kong.

• 29:47Dan Pashman?

  So chefs figured out how to source the fish. The fishermen learned how to handle it. But to truly make the transition, restaurants had to do one more thing: convince Chinese customers.

• 29:57Speaker 04

  I think in the past, even the same fish, they think this one caught in China, they we cannot eat raw.

• 30:03Speaker 05

  When the time changed, the chef only can offer the local fish. At the beginning, they won't accept it, and they think, oh, maybe, I'm not sure, is it low quality? They have lot of the questions, and it's need time.

• 30:19Dan Pashman?

  To uh to let them experience, right? When they did experience it, Jason says Chinese diners were able to appreciate it.

• 30:27Speaker 04

  Also the diner, the people who having uh the the making the consumption decision. They have been become more mature, more educated. And they understand the ingredient much better than before because they travel all around world. They they understand which one is good, which taste is good. The the cheap one could be have have have good good good way of cooking it. So I think that also push the restaurant make a change uh in a good way.

• 30:57Dan Pashman?

  Right. Customers came to believe that Chinese fish tastes just as good as Japanese fish, even if it isn't as expensive. When Japanese restaurant can use local fish very well and in different way. I do think local people will think, oh, our fish can have more opportunities. Yeah.

• 31:16Dan Pashman?

  Oh, man. Our Spanish mackerel arrives. It's broiled and glazed with just a few drops of a miso sauce. There's a lime wedge and a candied kumquat on the side. That Spanish mackerel was really good and just like the the lime juice with the miso. It's like it's got a little bit of a glaze. It's a little bit sweet, a little bit tangy, meaty, but also flaky. Two years before, I cannot imagine we can have a like a plate of different uh local fish. And they they were made uh into sashimi and also they are all in high quality. Two years ago, you would not be able to imagine that this would be possible.

• 31:52Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, exactly. So Chinese chefs and consumers have come to believe that Chinese fish can be just as good as Japanese fish. But could it actually be better? Jason and Wei Hung tell me about one instance where they think the answer is yes.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  In Japan, it's called amberjack. I think the best quality of amberjack should be in the North China Sea and the Korean Sea.

• 32:16Dan Pashman?

  It has a silver skin, so it's very, very quickly to get not good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 05

  So in the past, the chef suggested he won't use this fish from Japan. But now if you get it from local seas, will be very high quality.

• 32:33Dan Pashman?

  Before the ban, Japanese amberjack was rarely served at sushi restaurants in China because it wouldn't survive transport from Japan. There was domestic amberjack in China, but it wasn't considered high enough quality for sushi. Chinese people only ate it cooked. When the ban went into place and the fishermen learned those techniques of yukejime and shinkijime, it transformed the quality of the fish. Suddenly, local amberjack was good enough to be served raw at sushi restaurants in China. Wei Hung says it was a real revelation for Chinese chefs and diners to learn that their amberjack could be such high quality.

• 33:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, just like a new, new friends come.

• 33:10Dan Pashman?

  New friends.

• 33:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:12Dan Pashman?

  Right then, a piece of Chinese-caught amberjack lands in front of me, served with a yuzu koshou sauce, sprinkled with yuzu zest, and finished with a blowtorch.

• 33:23Speaker 05

  So good, right?

• 33:27Dan Pashman?

  Very good.

• 33:28Speaker 05

  I don't think it's both a Japanese technique and the local fish magical.

• 33:34Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. I should say, when I was in Japan, I tried their amberjack, which likely came from Japan. And honestly, both were great, but I don't think I could tell the difference. The one in Beijing might actually have been better. After the Spanish mackerel and amberjack, the parade of small dishes continues. Each plate, just a bite or two. There are these local shrimp that are incredible. There's a steamed egg topped with fish roe and served inside a yuzu peel. And then there's something very exciting that comes out. So is this the uni now? Uni is sea urchin. It's a delicacy because of its sweet, fatty, slightly briny flavor. It's a huge thing in Japan. It's also becoming more of a thing in the US where it's a real luxury item. And it's gaining popularity in China.

• 34:15Speaker 05

  Chef Chang, guess, it's actually the ingredients from Russia.

• 34:19Dan Pashman?

  This uni is from Russia?

• 34:21Speaker 05

  Key guess. I think the best uni you can find in Japan, the most expensive one, is also coming from Russia. It's coming from Northern Four Islands. Northern Four Islands is an area which currently

• 34:36Dan Pashman?

  Owned by Russia, but historically they have some some debate whether this should belong to Japan, Hokkaido or Russia. But the best quality of uni all coming from that area. The northernmost part of Japan is only 25 miles from the closest part of Russia. These islands Jason's talking about are the Kurel Islands. They've been occupied by Russia since World War II. So in China, the official line is that the uni comes from Russia. In Japan, I was told all the uni comes from the north of Japan, near islands currently occupied by Russia. To be clear, both sides are talking about the same water. They just disagree about whose water it is. Another area where you see tensions playing out between China and Japan.

• 35:19Dan Pashman?

  Anyway, the uni here is phenomenal, as was the uni I had in Japan, which makes sense. It's all coming from the same place.

• 35:28Dan Pashman?

  I didn't ask anyone at the restaurant for their takes on the geopolitics of uni or the ban on Japanese fish. I learned pretty quickly that in China, there are some questions you don't ask, at least not in public to people you don't know very well. So tensions are high between the Chinese and Japanese governments, but on the ground, people on both sides are adapting. And the adaptations are further intertwining these two cultures, which became clear as I sat in this restaurant with Jason and Wei Hung, eating Chinese fish prepared in a Japanese style.

• 35:57Speaker 05

  I tried a lot of fish before. I cannot imagine, I can see a lot of the new fishes on the table in that way. So I do think Japanese techniques to let lot of the local fish in a new life.

• 36:12Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 36:24Dan Pashman?

  That's Wei Hung Li and Jason Tang, co-hosts of the Omnivore's Table podcast. We'll link to their Instagrams in our show notes. The restaurant we ate at was Akimoto in Beijing, and you can find Karumi Mori on X and Instagram. She's at @roomirport. Special thanks to Yebuji and Ellen Horn for making my trip to China possible, and to Yuki Nakajima and Kaneko Matsuyama for your research help in Japan. Next week, I invite longtime friend of the show Kenji Lopez Alt and comic Judy Gold to join me for a salad spinner. We'll get into the state of the bagel, the recent revelations about Rene Redzepi of Noma, and babies eating straight up sticks of butter. We'll cover a lot on that one. That's next week. While you wait for that show, check out last week's episode about the explosion

• 37:07Dan Pashman?

  of the restaurant scene in China. You'll get to hear me eat Swallows Nest Soup and get my nails done at two very different Beijing restaurants. That one's up now. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer- Emma Morgenstern. and senior producer- Andres O'Hara. It was edited by- Camille Stanley. Our engineer is-

• 37:52Dan Pashman?

  Jared O'Connell. Our interns are- Morgan Johnson. and- India Rice. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman. And I'm Alyssa from Jupiter, Florida, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 38:23Speaker 03

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