Elle Simone Scott Brought More Compassion To The Kitchen (Reheat)

Elle Simone Scott recently died of ovarian cancer at the age of 49. This week's Reheat is our conversation with Elle from 2021.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  If you're the kind of person who plans vacations around where you're gonna eat, Scottsdale belongs on your list. And look, whenever I go somewhere, my priority is on eating things that are the specialties of that region, eating things that I can't get at home. So when I'm in that area, I'm looking for the specialties of the region, like authentic southwestern and Native American flavors, modern Mexican cuisine, and as basic as it sounds, homemade, fresh flour tortillas. There's nothing like it, and you can't get them like that in the Northeast. And there is such a farm-to-table culture in Scottsdale, inspired by the Sonoran Desert. Everything is so fresh, the peppers, the spices, it is so vibrant. And Scottsdale's just got a great vibe. It's one of those places where breakfast becomes brunch, happy hour turns into dinner, and every patio has another amazing view.

• 0:45Dan Pashman?

  And explore Old Town Scottsdale between meals, or relax at a spa after brunch. From award-winning and James Beard-recognized chefs to neighborhood gems and nationally acclaimed restaurants, every meal in Scottsdale tells a story. So come hungry and leave with new favorite restaurants. Start planning your next culinary getaway at experiencescottsdale.com. I grew up on Lando Lake's cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lake's American cheese. And now, Lando Lake's cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lake's cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lake's has plenty of quick

• 1:26Dan Pashman?

  dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:47Dan Pashman?

  Hey, everyone. It's Dan here with another sporkful reheat for you. And this one I bring to you with a heavy heart. It's my conversation with Elle Simone Scott, the chef, food stylist, and first Black cast member on America's Test Kitchen. And we'll share this one with you now because Elle died on January 5th at age 49 of ovarian cancer. She'd been diagnosed back in 2016 and we talked about this in our episode with her, her relationship with the disease, how she approached eating during chemo. And I actually ran into her at an event in the Boston area a couple of years after she was on the show and it was great to catch up with her. She was someone who was just known for her warmth, her generosity, her enthusiasm and her deep knowledge. And if you follow food media folks on social media, you've been seeing the tributes pour in in the last few

• 2:29Dan Pashman?

  weeks. But as you're hearing this conversation, Elle really believed in living life, no matter the situation, not dwelling on the things that you can't change. She's actually a former social worker. So she brought a curious, compassionate perspective to her work with food. We're all gonna miss her. Remember, if there's an episode of this Sporkful you want to hear in one of these reheats, drop me a line at [email protected]. Thanks. And here's my conversation with Elle Simone Scott. I heard you say that the job of the food stylist is to sell the story of the food. And whatever you have to do to sell that story, you do it. So what's the weirdest thing you've ever done to make a food look good on camera?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  For a breakfast shoot, I literally had to scour through maybe three economy sized boxes of cornflakes for the perfect cornflakes for just one bowl of cereal.

• 3:20Dan Pashman?

  You mean like, like you were literally going through every single flake?

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Every single flake.

• 3:24Dan Pashman?

  Every flake had to be right?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Yes. And there's a certain diameter. There's like, you know, it can't be folded.

• 3:32Dan Pashman?

  Like, can't be folded, Elle?

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:35Dan Pashman?

  Those are some of the best cornflakes. This is very subjective.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  That's why they're all in the box. That's why.

• 3:45Dan Pashman?

  But like, if you food styled a bowl of cornflakes that was all folded flakes and showed that to me, I'd be like, this is the most beautiful bowl of cornflakes I ever saw.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  It's the crunchiest. It's the best.

• 3:54Dan Pashman?

  That's right. That's right. That's what I'm saying.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  That's not what they want to sell. And, and there's no ifs, ands or buts about it.

• 4:07Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Elle Simone Scott is a person who's deeply curious about stories, food stories and human ones. As you heard, she says that food styling is really about telling the story of the food. She's been a food stylist for shows on Bravo, Food Network, and now America's Test Kitchen. You've probably seen her on ATK's TV show on PBS. In 2019, she became the show's first Black regular on-air contributor. She's also the founder of She Chef, a networking and mentoring organization for women chefs of color. Now, Elle has a new podcast out called The Walk-In, where she talks with people who

• 4:50Dan Pashman?

  work in food about their struggles in the industry. Like I said, food stories and human ones. We'll get into that show a bit later. Now, listen, Elle can make just about any food look amazing. She's had a lot of practice, thanks in part to her family, going back to her great-grandmother, Ann Jordan Ford. Ann was a baker, and she ran the kitchen at a Jewish nursing home when Elle was a kid. Elle says that made sense. She grew up Seventh-day Adventist, which is a Christian religion that has some overlap with Judaism, including dietary restrictions similar to kosher rules.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  So I was introduced to like halas and lox and kugels and, you know, bialys and all these wonderful things that, you know, I mean, I thought all kids were eating like that, you know, smoked, smoked fish, you know, smoked table. I come from a family of really good cooks. I'm not the best cook in my family. I'm the only one who has pursued it professionally.

• 5:44Dan Pashman?

  Who is the best cook in your family?

• 5:47Speaker 01

  I will never, ever give my cousin the satisfaction of calling out her name.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  I just, I won't do it. She knows who she is.

• 6:01Dan Pashman?

  And I I heard you say in an interview that you grew up in a family where it was okay and sometimes even encouraged to ask why. Tell me more about that as it relates to food.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  I always care about where recipes come from, who made the first fill in the blank, how food is used as ritual in cultures. I think that the allowance of asking why made me feel like I could move through the world being very curious and expecting answers.

• 6:33Dan Pashman?

  And and it sounds like maybe in particular it made you curious about people.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  I remember knowing or being aware that there is depth to people, I think, from a really young age. So I definitely have always looked at people and wondered what their life story was.

• 6:53Dan Pashman?

  After college, Elle's curiosity led her to a career as a social worker. She moonlighted cooking in restaurants, but Elle felt especially connected to social work. She says to be any good at the job, you have to have certain personality traits.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  You have to have some sort of fearlessness about you because you, as a social worker, you can definitely find yourself in places and spaces you've never been before. And you have to know how to navigate that, like, in an instant. You know, I'm always looking at a situation on what is the solution? I don't spend a lot of time on the problems. And they're really just giving a damn. You know, like, you gotta give a damn about the people. It can't just be all about you in your head all the time, you know? I think that that's that kind of selflessness is is required, but it can be to a fault.

• 7:44Dan Pashman?

  Is that something that you sometimes have to a fault?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. It's more about the boundaries and the balance, you know? But I think that that's something that you can develop over time. It's it's it's difficult to to turn off the part of you that belongs to your job, you know? So you have to work extra hard to create boundaries.

• 8:10Dan Pashman?

  When the Great Recession hit in 2008, Elle got laid off from her job as a social worker. She started working more in restaurants. At one job in particular, she picked up a lot of new skills. Tell me about cooking on the cruise ship. What did you learn there?

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Wow, well, I learned that I was a little bit sheltered and I had a blast. It was my favorite job.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  I grew up very religious, so I had quite an eye-opening experience.

• 8:38Dan Pashman?

  So you weren't just cooking, you were dancing in some of the conga lines. Is that what you're telling me?

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, definitely. I worked on a cruise ship that toured the Hawaiian Islands. So I did a lot more luauing and parlaying than the average.

• 8:54Dan Pashman?

  More important than learning to party, Elle learned how to run a kitchen, how to work long hours, deal with a crisis. Like when the ship was stuck in a storm out at sea and couldn't dock. She had to come up with a menu using only the ingredients they had on hand. They couldn't get anything from shore like usual. Then she and her team had to cook and serve the meals with the ship rocking back and forth in the waves.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  People say if you work on a cruise ship, anyone will hire you, and it's pretty much true.

• 9:19Dan Pashman?

  After about two years on the cruise ship, Elle decided to make cooking her career. She went to culinary school. Eventually, she started working behind the scenes for various cooking shows as a chef and food stylist. In an interview, you once said, "I can look at a food and tell you what people will find appealing about it. And my job is to make sure it looks appealing until we get the shot." So I'm going to name a food, and I want you to tell me what people will find appealing about it.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:47Dan Pashman?

  What is the key to styling this food beautifully?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  I like this, gang. This is fun.

• 9:52Dan Pashman?

  Number one, chicken and dumplings.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  So people's eyes are usually going to go straight to the dumpling. So in this case, it's the shape, the uniformity of the dumpling, the size, the dumpling-to-chicken ratio. The chicken is a little bit more difficult to discern because it's probably shredded. So like, it has to look hot. If it's been sitting, the chicken is sinking. The dumplings are sinking. It's just looking really sad. So making sure it looks hot and your dumplings look cute.

• 10:21Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  That's how you do it.

• 10:23Dan Pashman?

  Okay. Next one, beef bulgogi.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Oh, beef bogogi. This is a good one. Okay, so all of the vegetables, the bean sprouts, like, I don't particularly want any sprouts with the heads popped off. Like, if they're bean sprouts, I want to see the whole sprout. You know, just making sure all your vegetables look fresh. Usually, that's like, holding them in water before you style the food. You know, making sure that the beef is a good cut, that it's cooked well, doesn't look dried out.

• 10:49Dan Pashman?

  Got it. Last one. We're gonna get tougher here now, Al. You ready?

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm ready.

• 10:54Dan Pashman?

  Banana date smoothie.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  This, you're right, this one is a little tricky. Well, anytime you're making a smoothie or anything that involves, like, cold temperatures, ice, cream, you're gonna have to keep making it fresh. And when you have a smoothie that has multiple ingredients like that, if there are dates inside the milkshake, you want to make sure that some of those dates are pressed against the glass on the inside so you can see all the components. If it's a topping, just making sure that, you know, the pieces don't look indigestible as it relates to drinking a milkshake. Like, you have to make it make sense. Like, this, can I drink? Can those dates fit through my straw? Like, let's make it make sense, right? But making sure that it stays cold and it looks foamy and delicious and you can see all the ingredients.

• 11:42Dan Pashman?

  My god, this is already making me hungry and thirsty.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Now, now I want a milkshake. Thanks, Dan. Thanks.

• 11:53Dan Pashman?

  Like I said, Al knows how to make just about any dish look amazing. Coming up, she takes her food styling game to the next level and starts appearing on camera when she comes to America's Test Kitchen. Then, later in our conversation, she gets personal about her new podcast and about being diagnosed with cancer. Stick around.

• 12:22Speaker 02

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• 12:33Dan Pashman?

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• 13:15Dan Pashman?

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• 13:57Dan Pashman?

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• 14:39Dan Pashman?

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• 15:09Speaker 03

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• 15:47Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to the Sporkful. I'm Dan Hashman, and I want to let you know that we have two live Sporkful tapings coming up. March 19th in Brooklyn with special guest Kenji Lopez Alt, and May 1st in Boston at WBUR City Space. Don't know the guest yet in Boston, but when we did a live show in Boston two years ago, we had a packed house and a lot of enthusiasm. Man, we got a great crowd in Boston. So I cannot wait to see all the folks in Boston and Cambridge and Somerville and wherever else you live. So again, March 19th in Brooklyn, May 1st in Boston. Get info on tickets at sporkful.com/events. Okay, back to my conversation with Elle Simone Scott. In 2019, Elle moved from behind the scenes to in front of the camera. She became the first black regular on-air contributor

• 16:32Dan Pashman?

  to America's Test Kitchen. ATK is known for going to extreme lengths to figure out the best recipe for something. Elle shares the findings, like when the Test Kitchen made 200 pounds of baked potatoes to determine how to make a perfect one. Elle joined Bridget Lancaster to report.

• 16:48Speaker 04

  Bridget, some crazy things are happening in the world with baked potatoes, and it has to stop. Oh, no. Immediately. First, we're cooking our potatoes.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  In the microwave.

• 16:58Speaker 04

  Not good. I've done it.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Not good. I've done it too.

• 17:00Speaker 04

  Right.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  And it cooks unevenly. It cooks from the inside out. We also cook our potatoes in foil.

• 17:04Speaker 04

  I've done that too.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  And it traps in all of the moisture and it doesn't give us a tasty potato.

• 17:10Dan Pashman?

  Even though Elle started appearing on TV for America's Test Kitchen, she kept styling food too. So you start food styling for ATK and you also did food styling for their book, How to Cocktail, which was your first time styling drinks.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:24Dan Pashman?

  How is it, how is styling drinks different from styling foods?

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Time is a little less on your side, you know, like food lives longer than ice cubes. That's for sure. You know, learning how to make garnishes and trying to do something that you didn't already see on like Pinterest or something, you know, trying to be original with orange slices, you know, like good luck with that, right?

• 17:50Dan Pashman?

  But like, speaking of orange slices, can I just vent for a minute, Ellen? I'm curious to hear your thoughts. I feel like the orange wheel.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 17:57Dan Pashman?

  The full, the full circle, you know, slice with the one, you know, slit taken out of it so that it rests on the rim. I know that it looks nice, but it's impossible to squeeze that into your drink.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:09Dan Pashman?

  With that, it just, it just like kind of buckles and mushes and now it's all over your hands and not in your drink.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  Well, it shouldn't even be in your drink. Like the orange should really just be complimenting what's already in the drink. Like, like the drink is made with orange. So sometimes the orange is just say, hey, this drink has orange citrus.

• 18:26Dan Pashman?

  I'm not supposed to be squeezing that into my drink?

• 18:28Speaker 01

  No, no, it's really, it's literally just garnish.

• 18:32Dan Pashman?

  Do you eat it?

• 18:33Speaker 01

  You can, you can. Can I tell you a secret though?

• 18:35Dan Pashman?

  Please, yes.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  I don't eat garnishes from cocktails. If I'm at a restaurant, I don't eat the garnish. They're usually in a little container that if they don't use it all in a day, they put it in the refrigerator. And then people put their hands in there to put the garnish on the drink. I usually just say no, thank you on the garnish, you know, I mean, unless it makes a difference, like, of course, if you're having like a martini, you need the olives, right?

• 19:00Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  That's kind of how it goes. But if it's not necessary, if orange is already in my cocktail, I would prefer if you didn't put an orange on it.

• 19:08Dan Pashman?

  So you're telling me that, that um, when I take that garnish that other people have already been rubbing their hands all in, and then I smush it into my, in my hand, in an attempt to squeeze that juice into the drink. Now it's running down my arm. Um, it's sort of doubly disgusting is what I'm learning here.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  To the germaphobe such as myself, yes, I'm, I'm totally grossed out right now.

• 19:38Dan Pashman?

  The image on the cover of the How to Cocktail book. Did you style that one?

• 19:43Speaker 01

  That's my hand. Yeah.

• 19:44Dan Pashman?

  Wow.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  That's me.

• 19:46Dan Pashman?

  There, there's a drink that is in a, um, I'm so bad at remembering the names of different kinds of glasses, but it's like the shallow, round glass.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Oh, it's a coupe, the coupe glass.

• 19:59Dan Pashman?

  The coupe glass, yes.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:02Dan Pashman?

  Yes, the coupe glass, right. So, so it's, it has a stem and then it has a bowl that's kind of shallow and very round and bulbous. And the cover of How to Cocktail has a drink in there with the color of the drink itself is like a, a deep reddish orange and it has a beautiful thin layer of white foam across the top. And then you're holding like a toothpick with this cherry dangling over the drink and the cherry has a little drip drop of cherry juice, just, just falling off of the cherry. It's like almost in midair.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 20:38Dan Pashman?

  It looks so delicious. And there's something about,

• 20:44Dan Pashman?

  I feel like I might've read something about how like, when you're trying to sell orange juice, it's better to have the picture show the orange juice pouring, like, as opposed to just a glass of orange juice, like motion.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:52Dan Pashman?

  The fact that you see, the fact that even though it's a still image, the drop that of, off that cherry that is about to fall into the drink suggests motion and it makes the image so much more compelling to me.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  That was one of the things that we worked so hard for in the book is to give the beverages where it made sense, that motion that makes it so exciting, you know, like there are lots of like ice cube drops that give up splash. There are some milkshakes kind of pouring off the side of the glass, some caramel coming off the side of the glass. Definitely leaning into a lot of motion for the cocktails, you know, that was, that was a great experience. I mean, we were tossing. Ice cubes from across the room. Drake is certain. I wish, I wish I were exaggerating when I say that, but we were doing.

• 21:40Dan Pashman?

  Did you have to like bring in Steph Curry to like, and then getting an ice cube into a glass from across the room is not easy.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  What? Like Drake said, I'm Steph Curry with the pot. It's me. It is I. It is I.

• 21:54Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 21:56Dan Pashman?

  And as you said, it was your hand there on the cover, holding that toothpick that's got the cherry on the end of it. Is that common for you as a food stylist? How often do your hands end up in a photo?

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Oh, it's very common, you know? And also, you know, at America's Best Kitchen, we're working a lot harder on representation. I work there. I'm a part of that company. I'm a part of that family. And so my family is a part of that family, you know? And so I want my family to look at every, all the work that I do and know that I'm not just talking to any one group of people. I'm talking to the world about food. And so having brown hands, having all kinds of hands in our food photos is extremely important.

• 22:42Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, it's so, it's, it's so interesting. I, I saw an Instagram post a little while back by Yowande Kamalafa, who's been a guest on our show. You may have crossed paths with her. She's a recipe developer, food stylist.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  I love her. Amazing food stylist.

• 22:54Dan Pashman?

  Fantastic. And she was talking about how she had, making the conscious decision to include her own hands in more of the photos that she posts of her food. And it was like, kind of an eye opening moment for me that I just, you know, it was like a, probably a bias that I have that I hadn't really investigated. If you just show me a picture of beautiful food, I would probably, on some level, without, not even consciously, my head would assume that a white person made it. And it just made me more aware of noticing whose hands are appearing in the photos. That beautifully styled, styled dish that I may swipe through on Instagram, to thinking more carefully about who made this, who came up with it, who made it look so beautiful,

• 23:37Dan Pashman?

  who photographed it, and thinking about all the people that were involved in that.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. It, it also helps to remind where equity and representation are and is not, right? Like. Um, when you see a set of brown hands for the first time in a photo, it reminds you that it's something that you've never seen before. And then it gets you to thinking about, you know, who's working in food media? Who has access to telling food stories? And, you know, it, it plays a huge role in what stories are being told about food and how, you know? And, and what is not being told about food, you know, what's being left out?

• 24:24Dan Pashman?

  Over the last few years, as Elle's career has progressed, she's found her work and her hands on book covers. She's also been struggling with something else very serious, something that's had a big impact on her personally and professionally. So in 2016, you were diagnosed with ovarian cancer at the age of 40, as you've discussed publicly before.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:46Dan Pashman?

  And I know the cancer occurred last spring.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 24:49Dan Pashman?

  First off, how are you doing?

• 24:50Speaker 01

  I'm doing well. I've had, I had surgery. I was out for a while. The tumor was operable, which is always great. Both times, very early detection, which can be a game changer. You know, you never know what it will turn out to at the end of the day. But ovarian cancer is one of the cancers that is always very likely to reoccur. But, you know, overall, I'm doing well. I'm just, I'm living life from day to day. Cancer is probably the, maybe the fifth thing I think about every day. You know, it's, it's not on the, it's not on the top of my list. I don't live that way anyway, you know? And I definitely encourage people to always live life first. Think about, think about the things you can't change later, you know?

• 25:32Dan Pashman?

  Has it affected your ability to do your job or your work in any way?

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Um, I can't go into the studio and do food styling. Um, because of the pandemic, you know, with COVID, I'm considered immune compromised, you know, because anyone could be tested positive for COVID at any given time, you know? Um, I was actually thinking about that today. It's funny that you mentioned it. I, it just made me a little sad. Like, man, I really miss food styling. I miss it, you know?

• 25:59Dan Pashman?

  What, what, what do you miss about it?

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, it's my passion work. It just brings me joy, like. Making food look in a way that the people who created the recipes makes them feel good for having created it, you know, it's more than what the world sees, you know, when someone works on a recipe for months and they see it finally come to fruition in print, it's getting ready to go on a book, you know, it's getting ready to go out into the world, it's like grooming your kid to be the president, not the current, but the president. You know, and like knowing that they're gonna do the great job, you know, just preparing something that you know is gonna be great, go out to the world, and I get to make it

• 26:43Speaker 01

  look beautiful for them, and to see them have that pride behind making an awesome recipe, it means a lot.

• 26:50Dan Pashman?

  I, I, I would imagine that, I know some people who have chemo, it affects their tastes, and any one of us who loves food, loves to eat, takes a lot of pleasure in food, sometimes uses food as a comfort, it must be hard, I would imagine, to be in a difficult situation in life and then not be able to sort of find that same comfort in food.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Some advice that someone gave me, though, a friend who had gone through chemo before I started the first time, she said, don't eat things that you like while you're on chemo, because if you taste it while on chemo and it tastes bad, it could kind of ruin your life.

• 27:28Dan Pashman?

  Oh, interesting.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  And so, I, that's kind of what I do, I have some things that I can really stomach through chemo.

• 27:34Dan Pashman?

  So, what are, what are, tell me a couple of the foods that you put on your do not eat list during chemo?

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Um, my eat list is probably an easier list to share with you. That's probably a easier list. While, while on chemo, I eat lots of things with, like, umami heavy things, like miso soup tastes great to me, any Asian food, curries, masala, any of that, I love it, I can deal with it, um, short of that, it, it becomes more complicated.

• 28:03Dan Pashman?

  While undergoing chemo, Elle says she found an outlet hosting her new podcast, The Walk-In.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Every restaurant cook knows that The Walk-In Refrigerator is where you go when you need a moment to cry, to confide in a friend, or to collect your composure. It's the place where the pressure to appear in control falls away, where you're allowed to feel your feelings and get real about the hard stuff. From America's Test Kitchen, I am Elle Simone Scott and this is... The walk in.

• 28:35Dan Pashman?

  Just as the walk in is the safe space in a restaurant, Elle tries to create a safe space in her podcast. She talks with chefs, food writers, and more about their experiences in the food industry. Writer Tony Tipton Martin talks about growing up as a chubby kid and how that influences her today. Chef Kia Damon confesses she struggles with imposter syndrome. The show seems to bring together a lot of the threads of Elle's journey. The curiosity about people that traces back to her childhood. Her instincts as a social worker, connecting with all different people. And her experience as a chef. She says like social workers, chefs also tend to have certain things in common.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  If you've never been in the world of cooking, like in it, you know, like the belly of the beast, so to speak, you could easily be like, why would you want to be doing that? You know, why don't your feet hurt? Don't you miss your family? And you're like, yeah, I do, you know, but there's something, there's something in us, you know, food people, and I don't know what that is. I call it a seed, but it's something in us that just is so passionate and in love and, you know, driven. It's the kind of job that gives you instant satisfaction. I think the food people really do have a need for that instant satisfaction,

• 29:54Speaker 01

  even if it's just from themselves, you know, like I did this thing. This thing is good. I know it and now I can move on to the next thing, you know?

• 30:04Dan Pashman?

  Something, something also just about the, seeing the fruits of your labors frequently. And like, there's probably a bit of an adrenaline factor, factor to it as well.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The pressure, the pressure is great. It's like good applied pressure, you know?

• 30:18Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 30:21Dan Pashman?

  Now, look, the world of food and restaurants, you know, like there are people who, we all have our struggles and there are people with mental health issues in every line of work and life.

• 30:31Dan Pashman?

  I do feel like it comes up a lot in the restaurant world. And you certainly, you know, have a lot of conversations along those lines with folks on the walk in. Is it that working in restaurants creates some of these mental health issues? Or do people who may be predisposed end up working in restaurants?

• 30:50Speaker 01

  I think the answer is yes to both of those. Because the food and beverage industry is one of the very few industries that does not discriminate against people's personal backgrounds, right? Like, they don't have the best track record on race and gender. But like, in terms of, you know, mental health and/or past, you know, we don't really discriminate on that, you know? So you can have all kinds of people from all walks of life in the kitchen at any given time. So you know, so you get very abusive people, people who are abusive in the world, come to work and be abusive at work, you know? Because they're a Michelin star chef, they make the best food, you know? We want our restaurant to make the most money. We don't really care what it takes.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  We don't care whose expense it's at, you know? And I think that's really where the problem lies, you know? But I think COVID has done something for us, something very positive in the food world. And I know it sounds really strange because a lot of people are out of jobs. But I think it has kind of leveled the playing field, you know? Like, there's no such thing as a five star restaurant right now. You know, like, everyone's a carry out dine out restaurant. Everybody is fricking McDonald's right now, right? And so, like, it dismantled the hierarchy really quickly, you know? And so, I hope that there, that structurally something can be created from that, you know?

• 32:18Speaker 01

  And it can translate into a new industry, you know, when the pandemic is over.

• 32:27Dan Pashman?

  What do you hope that people will take from listening to The Walk-In?

• 32:31Speaker 01

  I hope that people will go into the world being more compassionate, more compassionate for themselves, for others, for me, for the guests, for the food and beverage industry. I hope that they walk away from it knowing that it's okay to have baggage issues, problems. It's, you know, it's more normal than they think, but it is also okay to talk about it and get help if you need it. I just hope they walk away feeling empowered and feeling whole.

• 33:16Dan Pashman?

  That's Elle Simone Scott from America's Test Kitchen. You can hear her podcast, The Walk-In, wherever you got this one. This show is produced by me along with senior producer-

• 33:26Speaker 05

  Emma Morgenstern-

• 33:27Dan Pashman?

  and producers- Andre Sojera- and- Tamika Weatherspoon- our editor is- Tracy Samuelson- the show is mixed by- Jared O'Connell- music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher. Our executive producers are Peter Clowney and Daisy Rosario. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  And I'm Erin in Albuquerque, New Mexico, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 34:13Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by- Gianna Palmer- the team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer-

• 34:19Speaker 05

  Emma Morgenstern-

• 34:20Dan Pashman?

  and senior producer- Andre Sojera- Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era. Plus, live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 35:07Speaker 06

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness,

• 35:51Speaker 06

  pain, or color changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NUR-TAC or visit nurtac.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  What kind of day is it? It's a White Claw day. Grab a pack, grab your friends. Everything else in life can wait. Your friends shouldn't. Let's go. White Claw, grab life by the claw. Please drink responsibly. Heart's also with flavors. White Claws also work, Chicago, Illinois.