Dan Savage Recommends A Polyeaterous Lifestyle (Reheat)

What should you cook for breakfast the morning after? How can couples share power in the kitchen without driving each other crazy? We talk food and relationships with Dan Savage, who writes the sex advice column Savage Love and hosts the podcast Savage Lovecast.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  Boar's Head brings to the deli the taste of deep fried turkey. Look, whether or not you've had deep fried turkey, I think you can probably understand that it's amazing. But making it is also a massive production. That's why Boar's Head now presents the Friar's Turkey Breast. One bite and flavor takes over. Perfectly seasoned, deliciously golden fried. A backyard tradition, available at the deli only from Boar's Head. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite at your local Boar's Head deli. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now, Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious

• 0:45Dan Pashman?

  restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Sirius XM Podcasts.

• 1:10Dan Pashman?

  Hey, everyone, it's Dan here with another reheat for you. This one features my conversation with longtime sex advice columnist and podcaster, Dan Savage. Now, if you don't know Dan Savage, you should at least be able to tell by the fact that he is a sex advice columnist that this conversation may get a little racy. So if you're listening with kids, that's just another episode. But if not, you're gonna love this because Dan and I get into how food opinions and eating habits can affect dating and relationships, including my own marriage. I also open up the phone lines and dish out some food and relationship advice of my own. Of course, if there's a reheat you want to hear, drop us a line, [email protected]. All right, thanks so much and enjoy my conversation with Dan Savage.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  On Valentine's Day, it's romantic. People want to feel like their partners are attracted to them. And think about the times you actually do want to have sex with your partner. It's not when you sat across the table watching them chew. People want to have sex with their partners after they went out and did something together. Get out of the house, go effing bowling, whatever. Just go be physically active, go do, go move with each other, and then you'll want to screw. Watch your partner inhale chocolate mousse at a restaurant after a three hour dinner? You're not going to want to put your dick in there.

• 2:18Dan Pashman?

  I don't know, you've never seen my wife eat chocolate mousse.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  You could put a video up on Twitter and I will check it out.

• 2:30Dan Pashman?

  Food is a huge issue in relationships. We hear about it all the time here on The Sporkful. From what you order on a first date to how you cook together when you've been married for 20 years. How and what people eat can be common ground, but it can also be a source of tension. Today on The Sporkful, love and sex columnist Dan Savage dishes on eating in a relationship and cooking in one.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Get the fuck out is also a division of labor.

• 2:53Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  Somebody's moving around the kitchen, you know, and they're doing their thing and they're not, you don't communicate very well and they don't want to knock into you and bustle. Like, one of you just go the hell away.

• 3:04Dan Pashman?

  By the end of this episode, you'll be ready to wrap that special someone in fondant and take them up to bed. Actually, that may be the only good use of fondant. Just don't try to eat it.

• 3:17Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Valentine's Day is next week, which means it's a perfect time to talk with Dan Savage. His nationally syndicated sex advice column and podcast are called Savage Love. He's also the creator of the It Gets Better movement, which started with queer adults offering advice to young people struggling with their sexuality. I met up with Dan in his office in Seattle and I wanted our conversation to follow the same arc as a relationship. We'd start talking about eating on a first date and end talking about food in a marriage. My marriage. But let's not get ahead of ourselves, because as we know, first comes love. I want to go through some of the different ways of sharing food and I want you to tell

• 4:02Dan Pashman?

  me what you think it says about the person.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:06Dan Pashman?

  You're sizing this person up on a date.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  People eat very differently because they're being observed.

• 4:10Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  And they know they're being observed because somebody is sussing them out about whether they want to keep seeing them. And people eat self-consciously, particularly women, eat very self-consciously at that stage in a relationship.

• 4:20Dan Pashman?

  How so? Like, give me specific examples. What do you think is different about the way women eat? In that situation.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Well, women aren't supposed to, you know, when it comes to sex, have desire. You know, they're not supposed to be the actors or agents of their own shit of making their sex life happen. They can't appear to be too lustful because of all the like slut chaming and guilt we heap up on women. And that spills over into food, you know, appetites, sexual appetites for food can be stigmatized as well. And women will perform eating and eat very little. I'm not endorsing that.

• 4:51Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  That is an observation.

• 4:52Dan Pashman?

  Right, right.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  I'm not saying that's how women should eat.

• 4:54Dan Pashman?

  No, no.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Or how all women do, you know, get into trouble when you start generalizing about 3.5 billion people.

• 4:59Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  But generally and broadly, I think, you know, you read what women have to say about how they eat on dates when they know this is straight guy is observing them. The straight guy eats very unselfconsciously and a woman picks up a salad.

• 5:08Dan Pashman?

  I mean, I, I, I think there, I think, I know that when I was dating, I would be somewhat conscious, maybe less so than a woman, but like, I wouldn't eat something that was like, that was likely to drop all over myself, which I do frequently when I eat.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 5:24Dan Pashman?

  I, right. I wouldn't order something that might negatively affect my digestive processes later that night.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't want to fart when you're getting a blowjob.

• 5:34Dan Pashman?

  That's right. Yeah, that's a turn off, I'm pretty sure. And so.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  You hope it's, it's not always a turn off, but you're always hoping it's a turn off. You don't want to accidentally find yourself in bed with somebody who's happy you had the baby back ribs and the beans.

• 5:46Dan Pashman?

  Well, you know, to each his own, Dan, as I'm sure you know better than anyone.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  I'm down with the each his own thing, but I don't want to. I should keep it to I's statements. I shouldn't make it generally, you don't want, the universal, you don't want to find yourself in bed. Some of you do, I don't.

• 6:00Dan Pashman?

  Let's talk about the morning after. What do you cook for someone the morning after when you want them to stay? And what do you cook when you want them to leave?

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Well, you pull out the stops if you want them to stay. You don't make something you can't make. Don't make something bad. Don't like pull out Martha Stewart and try to make eggs benedict or something stupid. But if, and breakfast is simple. I never understand these people go line up for brunch on Saturday and Sunday morning. Outside, there's a restaurant by my house, people line down the block for brunch. Making eggs is easy. Poaching a couple of eggs, a couple of eggs poached on toast and some sliced fruit, that's all you need. And that's really easy and it's nicer and, and.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Almost more thoughtful than something crazy. You don't want to appear to be trying too hard. No eggs benedict. You want to try hard and fail because then what you've said is I suck at this cooking thing. And you don't want to, you know, overplay your hand. So something simple that you can bust out.

• 6:53Dan Pashman?

  See, that's an interesting.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  That says, please come back.

• 6:55Dan Pashman?

  Right. The thing about trying too hard, this I think is an interesting relationship issue. I'm sure you hear about it all the time in your work, but like, why is it that people don't like people who are trying too hard?

• 7:09Speaker 02

  It's not that people don't like people who are trying too hard. It's that the sensing that they're trying too hard creates sort of an obligation on you. Makes you aware that, you know, it puts a burden on you almost. If you have sexual relations with someone for the first time in your apartment and they come into your kitchen after showering off and there's some insane spread on the table, they're going to think, this is a little much for breakfast, the first time I sleep over. This is actually kind of makes me feel obligated to, A, if he sleeps over at my house or she does, to lay out a similar spread. Like what's being communicated by that is I'm so into you, I'm so into you. And people aren't ready to hear that at the start. Even if they are into you equally as hard, they aren't ready to hear it because saying that

• 7:53Speaker 02

  with food or just saying it with words that early in a relationship, it displays poor judgment and poor impulse control, the two, two things people look for in a partner.

• 8:02Dan Pashman?

  Let's talk a little bit about Valentine's Day. Do you and your husband do anything special on Valentine's Day?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 8:07Dan Pashman?

  I, I feel like it's almost like the relationship version of New Year's Eve. Like all this expectation, all this pressure to make it something super special, which invariably makes it disappointing.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Right. And you've been assaulted by commercials. There's this anxiety around not getting what other people are getting. And I don't think that people should do anything on Valentine's. My standard advice, though, for people who do do something on Valentine's Day, sex first, then go out to dinner. Because the calls I get and the letters I get in the wake of Valentine's Day are from people who are nervous and disappointed and spooked that they didn't have sex on Valentine's Day. They went out to dinner and then they came home and fell asleep. Well, because you were full of heavy food and booze and chocolate and you fell asleep. So have sex at seven o'clock and then go out to dinner at nine 30 or 10. When the restaurant's empty, easier to get a reservation. The staff isn't so frazzled and you, you'll have already nailed the sex part.

• 9:05Dan Pashman?

  Let's talk about couples cooking together. There was a term that I heard, I don't know if the New York Times coined it, but that was the first time I came into contact with it a while back. They did a story about couples cooking together.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  Which only happens in Viagra commercials.

• 9:18Dan Pashman?

  Well, they coined the term kitchen bully. And I don't know if you have this experience in your home. I know I have it sometimes in my home in both directions.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Which is why couples don't cook together and shouldn't cook together.

• 9:29Dan Pashman?

  Okay, go on.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Well, cooking, I think, is a solitary process. And everybody has their own ideas about how it should be done. And if one of you is the better cook or enjoys cooking in a relationship, I think you should cede the cooking to that person. If they indeed enjoy it, you're not burdening them with the cooking. It's what they want to contribute. Let them cook, get the fuck out of the way, and you clean up. But you know, you only ever see couples cooking together merrily in commercials where relationship dynamics are misrepresented in order to sell us products.

• 9:56Dan Pashman?

  So tell me, so here's my personal situation. You tell me what, how you think I should deal with this. So I think my wife would freely acknowledge that I am the more experienced, accomplished home cook. But she's a good cook and she, there's a few dishes that she makes that I love that are really delicious. The issue is that, especially because since I've started doing this food podcast, or without me in charge, I've accumulated more food and cooking knowledge. So now I know more and it's very hard for me to walk into the kitchen and see her cooking and like.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Then don't look. Turn right around and walk back out.

• 10:30Dan Pashman?

  Really?

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, don't look.

• 10:31Dan Pashman?

  Even if I could say something that would make the meal better, like if I have a tip that's like, actually you should cook this chicken at 400, not 350. And I know it'll be better.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  If you can gently slip it in.

• 10:42Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Which applies not just to cooking. And get away with all sorts of stuff in a relationship if you can gently slip it in.

• 10:48Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  So lube that comment up and gently slip it in.

• 10:50Dan Pashman?

  So you be me, I'm my wife.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  And pick your bet, like one comment per meal cooked, maybe.

• 10:56Dan Pashman?

  Okay, that's good advice.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  But not this, that, the other. Don't take over.

• 11:01Dan Pashman?

  Okay, so, so, so, uh, let's go ahead and, and, and role play here.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  All right.

• 11:06Dan Pashman?

  I'm my wife, you're me, you just walked in, there's one comment to make. Tell me, uh, how would you say it to me?

• 11:13Speaker 02

  I think the way to do it is this, you know, one of the people I interviewed said it's a good idea to do this. Not, I'm telling you that you're an idiot and you don't know, but we both didn't know this and now we both know it because I learned it doing my food podcast. So if you frame it not as I am correcting you, but I have this new information that corrected how we both used to cook chicken, maybe you'll get away with it. Maybe that's the lube you need to slip it in.

• 11:35Dan Pashman?

  Okay, I like that. I like that.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Good luck with it. But I think you should go with my original advice, which is to back slowly out of the kitchen and go look at something else. If you can't look at somebody cooking without tossing comments out about how they could be doing it better.

• 11:46Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  That's a bad strategy for cooking. It's a bad strategy for sex. It's a bad strategy for driving. It's a good strategy for high conflict relationship. Oh, you know, you could be cooking that chicken, but you know, I have a blowjob technique for you while you're down there, that maybe you might find helpful, would improve the blowjob for me. Nobody wants to hear that.

• 12:04Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  While they're blowing you, nobody wants to hear that.

• 12:14Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, I'll ask Dan for more advice on my own relationship. Janey doesn't care as much about going to restaurants as I do. So what's the solution? Then later in the show, I will take Dan's seat and become the relationship expert myself. I'll help a couple in Illinois work through a unique food conflict. Stick around.

• 12:41Dan Pashman?

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• 12:48Dan Pashman?

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• 13:29Dan Pashman?

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• 14:14Dan Pashman?

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• 14:58Dan Pashman?

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• 16:04Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pasch. Hey, if you want to hear what I'm eating and reading every week, you should sign up for the Sporkful newsletter. I'll give you my weekly recommendations and so do our producers and the whole rest of our team. We also share announcements about exciting things happening with the show, when there's special discounts on my pastas. And on top of all that, if you subscribe to the newsletter, you're automatically entered into giveaways for cookbooks featured on the show, as long as you live in the US or Canada. There's literally no downside. Sign up right now at sporkful.com/newsletter. I promise we won't spam you. We're only going to send you really good stuff. Again, that's sporkful.com/newsletter. Thanks.

• 16:41Dan Pashman?

  Now, let's get back to my conversation with Dan Savage. I still had some questions for him about food-related tensions between my wife, Janie, and me.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  Do I put your wife's consent to hash out your relationship with her on the show?

• 16:52Dan Pashman?

  Yes, I called her on the way here. She's a huge fan of yours and she loves what you do.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Oh, thanks.

• 16:55Dan Pashman?

  But here's one of the things that we run into is that she's not as passionate about food as I am. She doesn't love to eat. Like she, her idea of a great night is just like eating cereal on the couch and watching The Real Housewives. Like, that's all she needs. She also doesn't like to spend money. So she doesn't like to go out to, I'm not even talking about a super fancy, super expensive restaurant, even for the two of us to go out and spend $80 for the two of us to eat a decent meal. Like, I get excited about that and she immediately, the check comes and she's like...

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Wasn't worth it.

• 17:30Dan Pashman?

  Right, right. And I used to resent that a little more until I got a hold of these flavor tasting tabs that test your palate. And, and she couldn't taste anything on the tabs, which the results show that she is in the bottom 25% of tasters. So I feel like I can't really hold it against her. And on one hand... Hey, look, we don't do everything together. I can go out for a nice meal with someone else.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  Ding ding ding.

• 17:54Dan Pashman?

  But like, but I, but, but I liked, you know, it's fun to share a great meal with someone that you care about. And so she's a good sport and she'll sometimes be like, yeah, sure. Like, let's go out wherever you want to go. But like, there's a little bit of a disconnect there. So what's the, what's the solution?

• 18:09Speaker 02

  You go out with other people and have those fancy foodie meals with other people who can really appreciate and enjoy it and dish about it with you and you don't make her perform delight in a restaurant where she is bored or unable to taste all the subtleties. My husband likes to go out dancing and I hate it. I don't enjoy it. Um, and every once in a while I'll go to a club with him, just so I go to a club with him. But otherwise he goes out with his dancing friends, his clubby friends, and I don't resent him for going out on those nights. Bye, have fun. Thank you for not being the kind of insecure bag of slop who can't do this on his own.

• 18:42Dan Pashman?

  So really what you're advocating.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  You go for the fancy meals. She stays at home and watches Real Housewives and eats cereal. And then you're both happy.

• 18:47Dan Pashman?

  Right. So, so what you're advocating for my wife and me is a polyeterous relationship.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Yes, essentially.

• 18:55Dan Pashman?

  Polyeteri.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  You should, that's a good term. You should, you should totally have that trademarked immediately.

• 19:00Dan Pashman?

  But, but what happens to like, she might say, it's okay. Sure, honey. Let's be polyeterous. But then I go out all over town.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  And she's upset. Well, you just have to check in, you just have to check into each other. You have to talk to each other.

• 19:11Dan Pashman?

  And, and how does that explain? Tell me how that conversation goes.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  Well, it works in my house with Terry going, I'm going out tonight. Do you want to come? And I say, no. And he says, okay, bye. So I think you go to her and say, I made reservations at this restaurant. If you want to come, I'd love to go with you. If not, I'll make, I'll ask somebody else to come along and let her choose, let her pick. And then she, without any stigma or guilt or sad feelings or long faces is free to opt out whenever she wants.

• 19:35Dan Pashman?

  What if she starts going out for nice meals with other people? How am I supposed to feel about that?

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Hmm, I don't know. I don't know how you're supposed to feel about that because.

• 19:45Dan Pashman?

  That's the other side of the polyeteri coin, isn't it?

• 19:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is the other, but that's, you know, to, to, to stretch the sexual sort of analogy to its breaking point. There are people with really low libidos whose partners get permission to go have sex with other people. Uh, and then when the low libido partner thinks they want to have sex with other people, the partner who's already been out there having sex with other people is like, I'm only doing this because you don't want to have sex very often. And now you're saying you want to have sex more often?

• 20:12Dan Pashman?

  So how do you advise those people?

• 20:13Speaker 02

  I advise them to break up.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Maybe we should, maybe we should back slowly away from this analogy.

• 20:19Dan Pashman?

  Honestly, I, I don't foresee a day when my wife is going to start going out to dinner with other people. I mean, we get two small kids. She's content with her bowl of cereal on the couch and her TV.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, then you don't have to hire a sitter either. You're saving money left and right.

• 20:33Dan Pashman?

  I always say I'm not worried.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  You can split the check if you go out with somebody else and you don't have to hire a sitter. What's not to like?

• 20:37Dan Pashman?

  Another question about, uh,

• 20:39Speaker 02

  Pick up a box of Lucky Charms on the way home for the wife.

• 20:43Dan Pashman?

  She loves Lucky Charms.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 20:46Dan Pashman?

  So my wife was raised in a kosher home, which you probably know means no pork, no shellfish, but people may also not realize that it means you can't mix meat and dairy. And it even means in a true kosher home, you're supposed to have separate plates and separate utensils and separate cooking implements so that nothing that ever has dairy on it can ever touch something that had meat on it. Now she is not so insistent that we have our home that way. But I'm also Jewish, but I was raised in a, like, we eat everything household and I love pork and shellfish and I love to cook and I love butter on just about everything.

• 21:21Dan Pashman?

  And we've reached this sort of like tenuous compromise where I said, okay, I won't cook pork or shellfish in our house. I can eat whatever I want. We're out of the house and if, and I can buy cooked pork or shellfish outside the house and bring it home and eat it on a paper plate.

• 21:37Dan Pashman?

  And I also won't cook with meat and dairy together, like really blatantly, like I'm not going to melt cheese on top of her chicken. I'm not going to make her chicken parmesan.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  And deep dish pizza with sausages right out.

• 21:50Dan Pashman?

  Right. None of that. But, um, you know, here, here's really the issue is that when I just talk about the, the kosher issue with her on an intellectual level, we really kind of agree that.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  That it's horseshit.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  That it's goofy, purely arbitrary cultural inheritance.

• 22:09Dan Pashman?

  Right. What I find frustrating, though, is that intellectually she and I agree, but she feels guilt because she feels like this is a tradition that's been in my family for many generations. And I respect that and I'm respectful of the way her family wants to eat. But it's frustrating for me when she, when it's more like, I almost, if she was like, I want to be orthodox, I'm just taking all the rules. I'd almost be like, okay, you know, that's an issue on a larger level. But like, it's that it's more that she just feels.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  What is it you want me to say that's going to upset your wife? I feel like you should slip me a piece of paper across the table with exactly what you want me to say about this.

• 22:44Dan Pashman?

  What? How should I, how?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  To get your, to help your wife through this. Or what it is, you've always wanted to say that you haven't been brave enough to say to her about it.

• 22:51Dan Pashman?

  I don't, I think I probably said it all. I guess, I don't know if you have any, like, is this sort of tenuous compromise that we have, which sometimes is a source of tension, because she'll say like, she feels like I'm pushing her away from this thing she wants to observe. But sometimes I feel frustrated because I feel like it's all a bunch of BS. And why should I have any restrictions? So we have this kind of tenuous compromise that works nine days out of 10. Is that the best we can hope for?

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, absolutely.

• 23:18Dan Pashman?

  Is there something else we should be doing differently?

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Tenuous compromise is, I think, the gold star for long-term relationships. If you can get to a tenuous compromise about something, Yahtzee, you win. You won't get to, you know, surrender, unconditional surrender on most sort of points of contention in a long-term relationship. But if you can hammer out some, carve a groove into each other and hammer out a workable compromise.

• 23:40Dan Pashman?

  And then?

• 23:41Speaker 02

  I mean, do you feel really restricted and restrained by the compromise? That you can't make a pork loin for dinner for your family?

• 23:46Dan Pashman?

  Not terribly restricted. Not terribly. But it's also, you know, like, my parents will go buy me a delicious lobster roll and bring it to my house. And that is delicious and wonderful.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  But you have to eat it in the car.

• 24:00Dan Pashman?

  I can eat it at home, but it's still, I'm sort of like, but I would like there to be more lobster rolls in my life. I'm not a.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  But there'd be less wife, Ben. So you have to pick.

• 24:09Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  The price of admission, more wife means fewer lobster rolls. And hopefully you love your wife more than you love dead lobsters.

• 24:16Dan Pashman?

  I do.

• 24:27Dan Pashman?

  That's Dan. Savage, his nationally syndicated sex column and podcast are called Savage Love. Now, as you know, we've been talking about the way food affects relationships here on the Sporkful for years, often by taking calls from you. And while I may be no Dan Savage, I like to think I've dished out some decent advice over the years. So, right now, we're going to share one of the very first food and relationship calls we ever did here on the show, and it remains one of our favorites. So, let's go to the phones.

• 24:56Speaker 06

  Hi, Dan. This is Barbara Young in North Aurora, Illinois. My husband and I have issues about how we eat cornbread muffins.

• 25:05Dan Pashman?

  Okay, go on.

• 25:06Speaker 06

  He always takes a knife and cuts them horizontally, so there's a bottom and a top, and then while they're warm, he butters them, lets the butter melt in. And I take the muffin and I break it with my fingers, top to bottom, so that there's a piece of the nice crown, the nice top, and a piece of the, you know, the bottom on each half, and that it's craggy in the middle. So, when I butter it, it's got nooks and crannies for all the butter to melt into. And we don't understand each other. How we eat cornbread muffins.

• 25:44Dan Pashman?

  How long have you guys been married?

• 25:45Speaker 06

  We've been married about 10 years, together quite a bit longer than that.

• 25:49Dan Pashman?

  Okay. So, it's two issues. Part is that you like the nooks and crannies, part is you want a little bit of top in every bite.

• 25:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, pretty much, yeah.

• 25:59Dan Pashman?

  And the nooks and crannies is really what you're getting at there, Barbara, is surface area to volume ratio, a common hobby horse here on the Sporkful. By breaking it apart and having an uneven surface on the piece of cornbread muffin, you are increasing the surface area available to absorb that delicious, delicious butter.

• 26:18Speaker 06

  Yes, and it just tastes better that way.

• 26:20Dan Pashman?

  Okay, all right. Well, that's a strong argument. Is your husband Bruce around? Can I talk to him?

• 26:26Speaker 06

  He's right here.

• 26:27Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 26:27Speaker 06

  Yes, hang on.

• 26:28Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's see what Bruce has to say for himself. Hello. Hey Bruce, how are you? I'm pretty good, how are you? Good, good. So, so I was just talking to your wife Barbara. She's got some issues with the way you eat cornbread muffins. What, uh, what do you have to say for yourself? I have some issues with the way she eats it too. (laughing) Um, I'm not sure. I, I've always done it this way. Cornbread, when you try, for me, when you try to tear it apart, often it breaks. And so, cutting it in half seems to keep the pieces together, so you don't have little chunks around. Um, which is one of the reasons why I do it. And I like cornbread muffins a lot.

• 27:09Dan Pashman?

  I like the top better than the bottom, but I still like them both and I, I will butter it and eat the bottom and then, and eat the top later and, and really enjoy it. What do you say to Barbara's comment about the butter? About the, the crags, the nooks and crannies and the advantages that those present? Um, I'm, I, I, I think that's just a little overrated. I find, uh, with a, a nice smooth surface to put hot butter on, it, uh, it, it melts right in and through the cornbread.

• 27:47Dan Pashman?

  Do you ever slice the cornbread muffin horizontally? Put the butter on the insides and then griddle it till it gets golden brown and crispy? Um, let's see. No, I have to say I've never tried that. That certainly sounds fun. It's more than fun, it's freaking amazing. But, uh, (laughing) um,

• 28:09Dan Pashman?

  this is an interesting one. And, and so, so what do you think about it? Where, where do you lie in this controversy? Well,

• 28:20Dan Pashman?

  I, I, I have to say that I think your approach is probably say a lot about your personalities.

• 28:30Dan Pashman?

  Like, for instance, actually, you know what? Barbara and Bruce, I'm gonna put you on hold for a minute. Are we good? They can't hear me? Okay, alright. I'm gonna make a prediction. I'm making a prediction, we'll see if I'm gonna be right. Barbara likes to get in there. She likes to pull the food apart with her hands. She wants maximum butter. She is someone who... She's more the one who's a little bit willing to take risks, a little bit more full of gusto. Bruce, he's more the steady... He's the steady hand. He wants a nice, smooth cut. He's got his way of doing it. It's the way he's always done it, and he's happy. Alright?

• 29:11Dan Pashman?

  I also suspect that Bruce is neater than Barbara. Those are my predictions. Okay, let's bring him back.

• 29:20Speaker 04

  Hello?

• 29:21Dan Pashman?

  Bruce and Barbara, can you hear me?

• 29:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:23Dan Pashman?

  Could you hear what I was just saying just then?

• 29:25Speaker 04

  No, uh-uh.

• 29:25Dan Pashman?

  Okay, okay. So, keep Barbara nearby, I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions now, Bruce.

• 29:31Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 29:31Dan Pashman?

  Between the two of you, which one would you say is the more adventurous? The one more likely to take risks? The one who's more... Who may live life on the edge with a little more gusto?

• 29:45Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 29:46Speaker 04

  Um, well, personally, I'd say that we're pretty close, but probably me.

• 29:51Dan Pashman?

  Really?

• 29:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'd agree.

• 29:54Dan Pashman?

  Really? Well, shows you what I know.

• 29:56Speaker 06

  Not by a lot.

• 29:59Dan Pashman?

  And now, which one of you is neater around the house?

• 30:04Speaker 06

  That would be me.

• 30:06Dan Pashman?

  So, it was the exact opposite of what I had predicted. Well, I will tell you this. Here's where I come down on your debate. I think that if you are going to eat the muffin, hide out of the oven, I would go with Barbara's approach. I would break it up by hand, because I agree, I want a little bit of that crust in every bite, and I like those crags for catching more butter. However, I have often done Bruce's approach when the muffins aren't quite so fresh, and in that case, slice them in half horizontally, butter the insides, and then put those buttered inside sides down and griddle them in a nonstick pan,

• 30:51Dan Pashman?

  so they turn golden brown and crispy and buttery.

• 30:54Speaker 06

  We have to try that. We often have more than enough cornbread muffins to have some the next day. We're definitely going to try that.

• 31:01Dan Pashman?

  There you go. And if you really want to go hardcore, if your muffins are big enough, you can do what I call muffin trifurcation. Slice them into thirds. This time I would go vertically. Slice them vertically into thirds, and then you have the middle slice that's got two open sides. You butter both sides and griddle both sides of that one.

• 31:19Speaker 06

  Ooh.

• 31:21Dan Pashman?

  Now you are vastly increasing your butter per muffin, which is something we can all get behind, I think. Well, Barbara and Bruce in North Aurora, Illinois, enjoy your muffins.

• 31:31Speaker 06

  Thank you so much. Thank you.

• 31:32Dan Pashman?

  Thanks, guys. Take care.

• 31:33Speaker 06

  Thanks for the good ideas.

• 31:39Dan Pashman?

  This show is produced by me along with our senior producer. And Sandy. Associate producer.

• 31:44Speaker 04

  Ngofen Putubuele.

• 31:45Dan Pashman?

  And our editor. Gianna Palmer. The show is mixed by. Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Jenny Radley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  And I'm Noni from New York City, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 32:13Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by. Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 32:20Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer. Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is. Jared O'Connell. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

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