Pod Insights The Sporkful New Jersey's Pork Roll-Taylor Ham Wars (Reheat) About this episode A 150-year-old blood feud over processed meat... When the New Jersey State Legislature tried to designate an Official State Sandwich, a fight broke out. Should it be pork roll, egg, and cheese — or Taylor ham, egg, and cheese? Thing is, pork roll and Taylor ham are the same food.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:28 Dan Pashman? Hey, everyone. Dan here with another Sporkful reheat for you. And let me tell you, you know, we put out a lot of episodes and certain ones kind of keep coming back to me. People reference back to me, they share things on social media. One of the things that I shared on Instagram connected to an episode is a map of the state of New Jersey that details the line, the Taylor ham pork roll line. Because part of the state calls this food pork roll, and part of the state calls it Taylor ham. And there's a map, and I shared it, and I'll reshare it for this episode, which is a super fun dive into my home state and a food that I grew up knowing and loving. I called it Taylor ham because I'm from North Jersey, and people love this episode. And I will say that neither of the pork roll festivals that are referenced in This episode seem to be happening anymore sadly.
2:13 Dan Pashman? Um, but look, I think there's a great opportunity for some pork roll Taylor ham festivals in New Jersey. So let's get it back going. Of course, if there's an older episode of the Sporkful you want us to reheat, drop me a line at [email protected] . Tell me your name, location, what episode you want to hear and why. Thanks so much and enjoy.
2:31 Dan Pashman? A few years back, the New Jersey State Legislature wanted to designate an official state sandwich. Sounds like fun, right? But a fight broke out over whether it should be pork roll, egg and cheese, or Taylor ham, egg and cheese. Now, the thing is pork roll and Taylor ham. Those are two names for the same food. It's a processed meat that looks like a slice of salami. People in New Jersey just can't agree on what to call it. The governor at the time, Chris Christie, he made his position clear. On his radio show, he responded to a question from moderator Eric Scott.
3:03 Speaker 01 Pork roll, egg and cheese, or Taylor ham? It's Taylor ham, egg and cheese. It is. Yeah, it is. You say definitively it is Taylor ham. I may do an executive order on this. Taylor ham, egg and cheese is the official breakfast sandwich of the state of New Jersey. And I would say this, it's not just Taylor ham, egg and cheese. It's Taylor ham, egg and cheese on a hard roll.
3:22 Dan Pashman? Well, see, I say a round one.
3:31 Speaker 02 Pork roll or Taylor ham?
3:33 Speaker 03 The New Jersey State Legislature wants resolution.
3:36 Speaker 04 I come here for a simple reason, to finally settle this pork roll versus Taylor ham question.
3:44 Speaker 04 I'm just kidding. There's not much that I'm afraid to take on in my final year office, but I know better than to get in the middle of that debate.
3:53 Dan Pashman? Maybe President Obama wouldn't go there, but we will. Because this is more than just a silly argument about what a food should be called. This controversy has its roots in a blood feud that goes back 150 years. And this food, it's not just any old local treat.
4:09 Speaker 05 You can't come to New Jersey without having a pork roll sandwich.
4:12 Speaker 03 Oh my God, we're from Jersey. My parents are from Jersey. I think I, as a baby, had it, just like I do with my daughters.
4:18 Dan Pashman? Pork roll doesn't get any more Jersey than Jon Bon Jovi or Bruce Springsteen. It is up at that level.
4:27 Dan Pashman? Today on This Porkful, we'll talk to a bunch of locals, a pork roll historian and comedian Chris Gethard to ask, what exactly is this food?
4:35 Speaker 05 You can't, you can't put into words. Daniel Webster did not make enough words.
4:39 Dan Pashman? Why is it so important to the people of New Jersey? It's just this weird thing that New Jersey has and wants to hold on to, you know, with the jaws of life. And why can't they stop fighting about it? Those are clearly two of the people in the world who care about Taylor ham most, and they can't get along. Right. That's where I grew up. That's all coming up. Stick around.
5:05 Dan Pashman? This is This Porkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Now, the Taylor ham pork roll divide is regional. So, right off the bat, I gotta say, full disclosure, I'm from northern New Jersey. That means I grew up calling it Taylor ham. South Jersey calls it pork roll. But in the interest of maintaining some journalistic objectivity, I'll try to go back and forth in this episode. So, what is it? It's a meat roll. The whole one looks like a big salami. You cut slices from it, and the slices are round and flat, about a quarter to a half inch thick. It's hickory smoked and cured with sugar, so it's salty and sweet and smoky and very meaty. It's usually cooked on a grill or griddle,
5:50 Dan Pashman? so it gets really juicy and a little crispy around the edges when the sugar caramelizes, and oh my god, it's so good. The iconic way to eat it is on an egg and cheese sandwich. I like it with eggs over medium, so they're a little runny, but there are other ways. We'll get to that later. So, why are people in New Jersey so attached to this food? Well, one guy who gets it is Chris Gethard. He's a comic and actor. He hosts the podcast Beautiful Anonymous. He's born and raised in West Orange, New Jersey, Taylor ham country, if you're keeping score. He went to Rutgers University in New Jersey. But you wanna know what really takes Chris's Jersey cred to the next level? I worked for about four years.
6:30 Speaker 06 Full time at a magazine called Weird New Jersey, which is a pretty beloved piece of New Jersey culture. It's a magazine, comes out twice a year, and it just covers all different like local legends, strange people.
6:44 Dan Pashman? So you grew up calling it Taylor Ham?
6:46 Speaker 06 Oh, I get, yes, absolutely. And I just did a show, uh, two nights ago, I did a show, uh, I did a stand-up show in Asbury Park. And I said to them outright, I was like, just so everybody knows, I'm from West Orange and it's called Taylor Ham and we all know it. And I was booed out of the room. So I learned that the Jersey Shore are pork roll people.
7:05 Dan Pashman? Right.
7:06 Speaker 06 But I'll never be a pork roll person.
7:07 Dan Pashman? Yeah.
7:08 Speaker 06 And I get it, I understand pork roll is the product and Taylor Ham is the brand name, but it's like, you call a Kleenex a Kleenex, nobody gets mad at you for not calling it a tissue. It's because Kleenex stomped the competition and laid claim to it. It's Taylor Ham.
7:24 Dan Pashman? Why do you think this food is so important to people in New Jersey?
7:28 Speaker 06 Well, I think it's, uh, it's one of the only things in New Jersey that's ours. You know, like, it's ours. You go to diners just across the river in New York and they don't have Taylor Ham. You go into Philly and they don't have Taylor Ham.
7:43 Dan Pashman? What Chris is saying is that most of our home state is either part of the New York metro area or the Philly metro area. There's not a whole lot that's distinctly New Jersey.
7:52 Speaker 06 It's made in Jersey, a lot of it comes from Trenton area. It's made there, it's served there, and it's kind of been embraced there. And I think that, you know, there's a lot of foods from different parts of the country that you can only get in those parts of the country. But Jersey people, I think, are fiercely prideful about the things that are theirs.
8:08 Dan Pashman? Do you have a specific memories or experiences from growing up that relate to Taylor Ham?
8:12 Speaker 06 First of all, late nights, high school, diners, Taylor Ham egg and cheese, fries with gravy. That was my order. You were, I ordered that for years until I realized it was probably killing me. And then you clean up your act a little bit. But I have a couple of other things. One, I had an aunt who lived in Montana. And she left Jersey when she was 18 years old. She lived all over Texas, California, eventually Montana. This woman had a pretty hard life. Bounced around, never had money. And she's someone who would call my mom and say, can you ship me some Taylor Ham? That's not just, I want to eat this thing. That's, I remember where I came from. And the thing that gives me that is biting into this weird meat.
9:05 Dan Pashman? So how did this food get to be so important? And how did the fight start? Well, there are two famous pork roll brands out there, Taylor and Case. And these guys are like the Montagues and the Capulets of New Jersey processed meat.
9:18 Speaker 03 As they were selling on rival carts or rival stores on Broad Street, there was already a feud.
9:25 Dan Pashman? This is Jenna Peasey, author of The Pork Roll Cookbook and our show's resident pork roll historian. Back in 1856, a New Jersey state senator and businessman named John Taylor started selling Taylor ham around Trenton, the state capital. A few years later, 1870, a butcher in Trenton named George Washington Case, he started selling something very similar that he called pork roll. Taylor and Case have been at it ever since.
9:49 Speaker 03 They have been trying to rival their lineage for many, many, many years now, many generations. Both are still owned by direct descendants of both families. Both are very protective and no one from Taylor would agree to talk to me for the book at all. And Case didn't let me inside their facilities or anything like that. So they're very, very, very protective of their product and of their legacy.
10:17 Dan Pashman? Jenna says in the early days, Taylor focused on selling more in North Jersey. That's why people there call it Taylor ham. Case pork roll was sold more in South Jersey, so South Jersey calls it pork roll. But these days, both are sold throughout New Jersey. Taylor is saltier, Case is a little milder and fattier. Some people do prefer one or the other, but truth is, most people who order it in a diner don't even know which one they're eating. So the fight isn't even really about which brand is better. It's just about the name.
10:46 Speaker 03 The real feud started in earnest when the Taylor Company was told that it couldn't call its product Taylor ham anymore.
10:57 Dan Pashman? That was because of the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906. After that, according to the government, Taylor ham did not fit the definition of ham. So Taylor went to court and he said, now that we have to change and call our food pork roll, we should be the only ones who can call our food pork roll because we invented it. But-
11:16 Speaker 03 A judge ruled that pork roll could not be copyrighted and they couldn't have the naming-
11:21 Dan Pashman? Rights to pork roll. So everyone can do it. So they decided to call it Taylor Pork Roll. So, but it is interesting that the original Taylor versus Case fight was over what to call it. Yeah. It's the same fight that we're having today. Like that. Yeah, but the courts have already ruled on this. Where are you from, Jenna? I'm from South Jersey. So you grew up calling it pork roll? I did. Maybe you and I can make our own little piece right here. Because I'm from North Jersey and I grew up calling it Taylor ham. Well, you're wrong.
12:00 Dan Pashman? So as Jenna said, the Taylor and Case companies are very protective. We tried to get interviews with them. We called Taylor and the person who answered wouldn't give us a phone number or even a name for the person who handles interview requests. They just forwarded us to a general voicemail box each time we called. So we left five messages. None more returned. Case was more open, but still tough to pin down. After lots of discussion, they told us we could expect a call from their CEO at some point on a Thursday. That whole day, we carried our phones with us. We kept checking for missed calls. But at the end of the day, nothing. Then, after more back and forth. Hi, my name's Tom Bribed and I'm CEO of Case Pork Roll Company. And what's your relation to George Washington Case?
12:46 Dan Pashman? I guess he would be my great, great, great grandfather. Six generations. What is it about this food that makes it so delicious? Like, is it an ingredient, a technique? It's, it's basically a technique. It really is. There is a little science behind making this product. That's why you really don't see a lot of people making this, except for really me and my competitor. And, and I mean, can you give me some idea of what, what that technique is that's so crucial? It's, it's just time.
13:20 Speaker 06 This product takes three days to make one batch.
13:25 Dan Pashman? Right.
13:25 Speaker 06 Start to finish.
13:26 Dan Pashman? Is the smoking the part that takes the longest?
13:30 Speaker 06 It's actually the whole cure process.
13:32 Dan Pashman? Okay.
13:32 Speaker 06 Cooking, smoking, curing.
13:34 Dan Pashman? How much pork roll do you eat nowadays at this point in your life?
13:38 Speaker 06 I actually still eat it two or three times a week.
13:41 Dan Pashman? And what's your favorite way to have it?
13:43 Speaker 06 I like it on a hamburger and I like it in an omelet with eggs.
13:47 Dan Pashman? Oh, like a cut up?
13:48 Speaker 06 Yeah, a cut up.
13:50 Dan Pashman? Tom wasn't what I expected. I mean, I figured I'd be talking to the Wizard of Pork Oz. But really, he was more of a teddy bear. I asked him about his relationship with the Taylor folks. I figured Trenton's not that big of a place. They must cross paths.
14:04 Speaker 06 You know, I've never met them, but I would never have anything bad to say about them. They make a great product. You know what? They've been in business a little longer than I have. And they do their thing and we do our thing.
14:17 Dan Pashman? I know there's this sort of ongoing argument in New Jersey about whether the food should be called Taylor ham or pork roll.
14:23 Speaker 06 Oh my god, I say to myself, don't they have anything better to do? Our politicians, you know?
14:30 Dan Pashman? Yeah.
14:31 Speaker 06 I wouldn't even, I wouldn't even comment on that. I wouldn't even get involved in it. I don't like any conflict.
14:37 Dan Pashman? But like if you're just sort of out in a social situation and someone says, hey, you're the guy who makes Taylor ham? I love Taylor ham.
14:44 Speaker 06 I will correct them.
14:48 Speaker 06 That way I'll correct them. Other than that, as long as you eat it, I'm good.
14:57 Dan Pashman? I was surprised that Tom was so laid back about something that has everyone else so fired up. But then I thought about it, you know, studies show that people are more likely to fight over something when it's scarce. Tom is concerned with his bottom line. So as long as there's enough pork roll demand for both companies, which there is, there's no reason to fight. But everyone else in the state, they're concerned with identity. And the things that make New Jersey, New Jersey, those are in short supply.
15:27 Dan Pashman? Coming up, a new pork roll feud erupts. There's a few guys, they went and got hard hats and they spray painted them like this baby blue. Blue color and they put pork roll UN on there. Yeah, it was really funny. Yeah, it was funny until it wasn't. You know, his own greed and selfishness is what took it away. Can the sporkful unite warring factions and bring peace to the processed meat galaxy? We'll find out. Stick around.
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18:50 Dan Pashman? Welcome back to a Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. Hey, if you're not already following the Sporkful in your podcasting app, what are you waiting for? In Apple Podcasts and Spotify, go to our show page and click Follow. In other apps, it might be like a plus sign or a subscribe button or a heart. Whatever it is in your podcasting app, please do that thing. It's the best way to ensure you'll never miss an episode and it's good for our show. So please go ahead and do it right now while you're listening. Thank you.
19:22 Dan Pashman? Now, back to pork roll. If your summer's cooking out on the grill did not include pork roll, you did not grow up in New Jersey. Sometimes you gotta warm up with just pork roll and cheese off the grill while the burgers are grilling. But I've never told anyone when they were eating pork roll that they were eating it wrong. Now, as we've heard, the pork roll epicenter is in Trenton, New Jersey's capital. Taylor and Case are both still based there. And you might think of Trenton as a small northeastern city, but it actually has more in common with the Rust Belt. It's where the Roebling Company made the steel ropes that hold up the Golden Gate Bridge. There's a famous sign there that says, "Trenton makes, the world takes." But that's not so true anymore.
20:08 Dan Pashman? Pork roll's one of the last things that That the city of Trenton makes. This is TC Nelson. He's born and raised in Trenton. He owns a bar and restaurant there called Trenton Social. So there is a certain pride and a certain history, like, you know, we've lost a lot of the things that used to be made here. So if we could hold on to a few things, and especially if they're dear to us, why not celebrate it? Yes, celebrate it. That was TC's first thought when he heard from a guy named Scott Miller, who suggested having a pork roll festival in Trenton. Scott's lived in the Trenton area for 25 years, but he's from Pennsylvania, so he didn't grow up eating pork roll. First time he tried it, he actually didn't like it. But one day, when a friend was frying some up, everything changed.
20:53 Speaker 04 And I ate it, and I realized, wow, I've been missing out. Pork roll is a seriously good treat. And I kind of fell in love with it right then and there. Now I'm obsessed with it.
21:03 Dan Pashman? Scott and TC planned to hold the festival at TC's bar and restaurant, Trenton Social. The event was set for Memorial Day weekend 2014. People were really excited. Here again is Jenna Peasey, author of The Pork Roll Cookbook. The whole community came together in support of hosting this event that really shined a good light on Trenton. You know, a city that has some crime troubles and some corruption issues and some bad things that had happened. So people seemed psyched, but no one really knew for sure what to expect. Finally, the big day arrived. Here's TC. It was like waking a sleeping giant.
21:44 Dan Pashman? People started waiting out in line before the gate opened, and I was just like, there's people waiting, like, they're, it's like they're waiting outside for a concert. You know, we were expecting over 1,000 people, and I think 4,000 people came through the doors. People came from as far away as Florida, and afterward, everyone agreed it was a huge success. And then the second year, they got ready to make it bigger and better. Have everything be awesome and then they just split. Yeah, that's right. Another pork roll feud. One guy was like, I don't like your ideas. And the other guy was like, well, okay, I'm gonna keep going with it.
22:27 Dan Pashman? I talked to both TC and Scott about the dispute. We're not going to get into all the details, but basically, they agree that the initial kernel of an idea came from Scott. Scott says from there, it was all him. He just rented TC's bar. TC says they planned the thing together. They both did a lot to make it a success. It's really both of theirs. Months after the festival, when they finally met to try to hash things out, Scott brought a lawyer. So you feel like there's no solution to the dispute?
22:55 Speaker 04 Yeah, I can't comment on it.
22:56 Dan Pashman? You feel like you've tried your hardest to, to, okay.
23:00 Speaker 04 It's a legal matter. I can't comment on it.
23:03 Dan Pashman? And here's TC. My opinion is that, you know, his own greed and his, you know, selfishness is what took it away. So for the six years since that first festival, there have been two festivals on the same day. TC's Trenton Pork Roll Festival and Scott's Official Pork Roll Festival. Both are in Trenton, just a half mile apart. Both have a pork roll recipe contest. Both have pork roll, egg and cheese sandwiches, plus dishes like pork roll sushi burritos, pork roll donuts, Korean pork belly with pork roll, even pork roll cocktails. The only big difference seems to be that TC's festival has more drinking because it's at his bar.
23:44 Dan Pashman? Scott's is more family friendly because it's in a park. Some people go to one or the other, some go to both. Here's Jenna Peasey.
23:52 Speaker 03 I think people were really angry. They felt like another good thing in Trenton had gone wrong. You know, why can't we just lift each other up and help each other out for?
24:02 Dan Pashman? Something that could be really great for our economy and help us out and change our image. Why can't we work together? But not everyone sees the falling out that way. After all, this is New Jersey, and this is pork roll. So there's disagreement over how people should feel about the disagreement. I talked about the dueling festivals with comedian Chris Gethard.
24:22 Speaker 06 It's awesome because that's two dudes trying to win. It's like, it's like a very New Jersey thing to me because it's like you guys made a festival about a food product that almost no one cares about. Forty-nine of the 50 states don't care. Even a lot of people here are not going to eat it because it's the unhealthiest thing in the world. And you've somehow managed to fracture that and splinter that and be mad about it. And you're attacking. Those are clearly two of the people in the world who care about Taylor ham most, and they can't get along. That's, that's where I grew up.
24:57 Dan Pashman? Maybe Chris is on to something. I mean, after all, the Trenton area has a history of food feuds. It's also known for tomato pie, which is basically a tomato-centric pizza. But there are two De Lorenzo's tomato pie places, started by a pair of brothers that have had this decades-long rivalry. So at one of the pork roll festivals, a Trentonian named Joe had this to say.
25:18 Speaker 06 The rivalry is awesome. I love it. I think it's the best thing to hit Trenton. I think the battling pork roll festivals is the new De Lorenzo's versus De Lorenzo's, the new Gino's versus Pat's, the, you know, Ric Flair versus Roddy Piper. It's awesome.
25:36 Dan Pashman? Yeah, Gino's versus Pat's, that's the classic Philly cheesesteak rivalry. Ric Flair and Roddy Piper, they're famous pro wrestlers with a classic rivalry. So maybe the dueling festivals are meant to be like that. But let's get back to the big question. Pork roll versus Taylor ham. Is there any hope for peace? At what point do we get tired of fighting? That bill about the official state sandwich never passed. The politicians lost interest. The Montagues and the Capulets, they made up. Even Ric Flair and Roddy Piper reconciled. I'm sure you remember it, after they retired, when they went on Celebrity Wife Swap together.
26:12 Speaker 04 I'm worried about you because you're rolling out. What's that mean? Same thing I was doing. You need to slow down just a little bit, just to catch your breath. And I love you. And I'm a little scared for you.
26:25 Dan Pashman? If Roddy Piper can tell Ric Flair he loves him, can't the pork roll and Taylor ham people do the same? I asked Chris Gethard for help. So much of what people gravitate towards about you is that you are a person who brings people together. Like, you have a real grassroots following as a comedian. You could step into this controversy and you could bring people together, Chris.
26:52 Speaker 06 Wow. You're saying I could be someone who might step up and say, "We need to find a middle ground where we can all be happy."
26:58 Dan Pashman? That's right.
27:00 Speaker 06 I could do that. Or I could follow my heart and say, "To hell with that South Jersey bullshit. It's Taylor ham forever. It's Taylor ham forever. That's what it is. You'll never hear the words pork roll come out of my mouth. Never. I'm disgusted I have to say them here and now. It's Taylor ham. And if they want to make it pork roll, egg and cheese in the state constitution, I think North Jersey should secede. We'll take all the industry with us and South Jersey can keep all the farming. It's Taylor ham. Don't take away my childhood.
27:40 Dan Pashman? This show is produced by me along with senior producer-
27:42 Speaker 03 Emma Morgenstern.
27:43 Dan Pashman? And producer- Andres O'Hara. Additional production by Anne, Sandy and Shoshana Gold. Editing help from Dan Charles and additional reporting by Kyrie Greenberg. Our engineer is- Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Daisy Rosario. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
28:03 Speaker 06 This is Max. And this is Rose from Verona Nutzes. Reminding you to eat more- Better.
28:17 Speaker 06 And eat more better.
28:32 Dan Pashman? This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer
28:40 Speaker 06 Andres O'Hara.
28:41 Dan Pashman? Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era. Plus, live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app, all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
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