The Search For Perfection In Buffalo Wings And Love (Reheat)

Dan talks to Matt Reynolds, director and star of the new documentary comedy The Great Chicken Wing Hunt, about the search for perfection in love and wings.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean, whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider. Start the day strong with Quaker protein products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker protein

• 0:42Dan Pashman?

  products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals. Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker. Available at a store near you.

• 1:01Dan Pashman?

  Hey everyone, Dan here with another Sporkful Reheat. And did you know that according to the National Chicken Council, Americans will consume about 1.45 billion with a B chicken wings on Super Bowl Sunday? This is the highest projection on record now. So, you know, maybe it's a little high, but it's gonna be a lot. It's gonna be a lot of chicken wings. So we all got wings in the brain, right? Well, to get you in the spirit, today's reheat is a deep dive into what makes for a great chicken wing, featuring my conversation with Matt Reynolds, director and star of the documentary comedy, The Great Chicken Wing Hunt, which is a really fun film and also includes a love story. Now, as always, if there's an episode of the Sporkful you want us to pull out of the deep freezer and reheat, send me an email or voice memo

• 1:43Dan Pashman?

  to [email protected]. Don't forget to include your first name, location, which episode you want us to reheat, and why. Thanks so much. Enjoy your next plate of wings and enjoy this conversation with Matt Reynolds.

• 2:00Dan Pashman?

  Today on The Sporkful, the search for perfection in chicken wings and in love with the star of the documentary comedy The Great Chicken Wing Hunt. Here's a clip.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  I feel like I believe that everything that you can possibly imagine existing in the world is out there, and if you look hard enough, you'll find it. I really do want to find the perfect wing. I don't think there is a perfect wing. I understand what you're saying, but I want to believe that there are perfect things in life. There's the perfect relationship, or the perfect song, and the perfect day, and the perfect wing. I think it's out there, waiting to be found. Are you married?

• 2:35Speaker 01

  No, I'm not married. Oh, okay. So waiting for the perfect relationship.

• 2:45Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. On the day of the Super Bowl, Americans consume 1.25 billion, with a "B," chicken wings. So, it's wing season. But, this show has year-round appeal, because we're gonna cover not only wings, but also the meaning of love. I mean, the two sort of go hand in hand, anyway, right? Matt Reynolds is the director and star of the documentary comedy The Great Chicken Wing Hunt. In it, Matt leads a band of wing lovers that includes his girlfriend Lucy, across a swath of upstate New York known as the Wing Belt. They're in search of the perfect Buffalo wing. Not just the best Buffalo wing, the perfect one. But, is perfection even possible?

• 3:28Dan Pashman?

  I sat down with Matt at the Village Porthouse on 3rd Ave in New York, and the conversation got pretty deep, even before we started eating wings.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  I grew up in a little town called Lyons, about two hours east of Buffalo. So, the wings didn't really completely get to that part of the country until the late 70s, early 80s, but I really just took to them right away. I remember there being like a brief period where they were too spicy for me, and then I started... Being able to tolerate the spice and then the people around me were like, oh my God, there's a five-year-old that can eat wings. It's amazing. And I think I liked the attention of that probably, which made me want them even more. And then I just really started to love them.

• 4:04Dan Pashman?

  Right. Because there's a moment in the, in the movie where you're doing like some radio interview and you say, I had an ulcer when I was eight because of chicken wings. I was like, wait, what? Is that true?

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. I had to stop eating wings for like six months and I had to drink this kind of like slimy green liquid that was supposed to help coat my stomach or something.

• 4:27Dan Pashman?

  But you're fully recovered?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, that has never come back up. But yeah, I'm fully recovered.

• 4:31Dan Pashman?

  Okay. Well, I'm glad to hear that. So you're living in Slovakia. You've been living there for years and you decided you're gonna set out and find the perfect chicken wing. But not before teaching the Slovaks about wings. What was their reaction? Tell me about teaching the people of Slovakia about buffalo wings.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  So I got into, I came to Europe in the late 90s and this is the Eastern, the former Eastern Bloc, the communist part. So there was, there was less infiltration of American culture there, including that they didn't have buffalo wings. So I would, I would have my parents ship me bottles of Frank's hot sauce and I would throw these huge wing parties that became very popular. People would bring friends of friends and suddenly it was a reoccurring kind of thing where every few months I would throw a wing party and 30 or 40 people would show up and it got like very rowdy and very, very, very fun. And, and we, we decided that, that the Slovaks, we would take a group of them on a wing tour in New York State, like you might go on a wine tour to France.

• 5:32Dan Pashman?

  Right. But this sounds much fancier than that.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Exactly. Much more pretentious. And then that just kind of evolved eventually into this quest to find the world's best wing.

• 5:40Dan Pashman?

  Your girlfriend, Lucy, in the film, she is Slovak. She comes with you. She's Czech, but all right, let's not split hairs. All right. And so my wife is Slovak, my descendants.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:51Dan Pashman?

  And you, you proceeded to drag Lucy on this chicken wing hunt. Now, and Lucy plays a big part of the film. We'll talk, I want to talk more about that a little later on. But first, let's talk about the wing hunt itself. Now here on the Sporkful, we often start by defining our terms. So I really liked that in the film, you did the same. How do you define the buffalo wing?

• 6:12Speaker 01

  A unbred, deep-fried chicken wing.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Coated in a pepper vinegar sauce, usually Frank's. That was the one that was used originally.

• 6:23Dan Pashman?

  Frank's Red Hot, that's the original.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:25Dan Pashman?

  Nowadays, it's different things, but that's the original.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Butter, unbreaded and deep fried. And that's basically it. And then, you know, you can do a lot of different things with the recipe. But that's the basis. So we were throwing out anything that was breaded. We were throwing out, you know, we weren't looking for a honey mustard wing. We weren't looking for a teriyaki wing.

• 6:43Dan Pashman?

  Now, when you set out on the hunt, you took a very scientific approach, which I really appreciate.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:48Dan Pashman?

  And you had score sheets. Who developed these score sheets?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  A group of scientists at Michigan University. Yeah, statisticians. It's funny, when we were doing, it was kind of a friend of a friend who had kind of hooked that up for us. And these scientists were like, oh, it's great. You know, we, you know, we're always doing cancer and stuff. It's fun for us, you know.

• 7:05Dan Pashman?

  So cancer research was put on hold for this, Matt? That's just great.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  So they flew in, right? And part of the scorecards were a series of questions about mood and sobriety and such. They were doing the statistical regression to try to like factor out mood and fatigue, right? I mean, they were so that you'd get a nice bell curve, right?

• 7:28Dan Pashman?

  Interesting.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  And at one point, my friend who would kind of hook this up, he turned to me and he goes, do you realize that this guy is like the second most important cancer researcher in the country?

• 7:39Speaker 01

  And his name is Albert Levine at Michigan. And so that was cool. I didn't, I didn't even realize till that moment that he was such an esteemed dude.

• 7:47Dan Pashman?

  That's impressive. And before you set out on the hunt, you actually set up, in order to make sure that you and your entire, your motley crew of wing hunters were all on the same page. And you were all going to be, you were going to sort of set a common bar for how good is a three versus a five versus a seven on the scale? You did a control wing.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  We did a control wing, yeah. We stopped at a deli. The control wing was supposed to be a five. So everybody knows, okay, this is a five. So we're on the same page. It was so bad, we made it a three.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  But, uh, yeah, that was interesting. That was something I would not have thought of if not for the guys from Michigan.

• 8:26Dan Pashman?

  And do you think, I know, I like to ask this question sometimes. I've taped shows or appeared at, um, cooking competitions. And I'm often curious whether the chefs and or the judges, what their opinion is about like going first versus going last. I know that you, you give the advice to people when the hunt's starting out. Don't give all tens on the first wing because you need to give yourself room to go up. How do you think the order that you went in affected the judging?

• 8:52Speaker 01

  That's a really good question. I mean, there's, Buffalo, many of the places in Buffalo did not have such a strong showing. And I wonder if it's because they came so late in the process. I don't think it's because we were sick of wings or weren't giving them a fair shake. I think it's because we were comparing them against the best wings we had had on the trip. And maybe because we were comparing them against such a high benchmark. We were rating them a little lower than maybe we should have. And maybe the earlier places when we were, when we wanted to find something great and were excited, more excited to hunt for wings. Maybe we rated them a little bit more highly.

• 9:32Dan Pashman?

  But it's also possible, we'll get into this more in a minute, but, um. One of the recurring themes of the film is, is this sort of tension between sort of this seeking out the perfect platonic ideal versus the idea of, of evolution and change and progress.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 9:49Dan Pashman?

  So, uh, which is a process that never ends. You never have a finished perfection.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:55Dan Pashman?

  And I think it's interesting that Buffalo, where the wing was invented, uh, did poorly. Because often I find that, that a specific region that is invented a food may not always be the best at it after a while because they're stuck in their old ways.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 10:10Dan Pashman?

  Is that possible?

• 10:11Speaker 01

  I think that's so. I mean, somebody in the movie posits the theory that Buffalo is kind of, that maybe, you know, some of the wings we found are part of the next evolution of wings.

• 10:19Dan Pashman?

  And, and one of the finalists in the competition, and this was sort of one of the points of controversy of the film. We won't give away how it ends, but, uh, he puts blue cheese into his actual sauce, which simultaneously.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  And celery.

• 10:35Dan Pashman?

  And celery, right.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:36Dan Pashman?

  Which kind of simultaneously blows your guys' minds and also sets off a heated debate about whether or not these are.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:43Dan Pashman?

  Buffalo wings. But that's an example, the kind of thing that, that. You know, if you're stuck in the buffalo bubble.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Right. And, you know, I should say, it could have turned out to be bad, but it's really, really great. It's really something.

• 10:55Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. I want that.

• 11:06Dan Pashman?

  Talk to me a little bit more about the score sheet and the criteria specifically relating to judging the wings themselves. What were the criteria you were looking at in the score sheet?

• 11:14Speaker 01

  So, this is not verbatim, but it was, uh, quality of the meat, the frying, greasiness. So, that was, you know, if it was a low score, it meant they were too greasy. Um, the consistency of the sauce, the overall quality of the sauce, the, uh, this was an interesting one. To what extent the, uh, the degree of the, in the name of the sauce matched the actual flavor, which is a very roundabout way of saying, was it medium, a medium, was it hot, a hot, was it mild, a mild? And was there a spread? Could you tell the difference between a mild and a medium?

• 11:48Dan Pashman?

  That is great. That is a classic problem at so many, at so many sort of bars that are just slinging wings and not paying attention.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:55Dan Pashman?

  Either they're all, they all seem the same.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 11:57Dan Pashman?

  Or they're poorly described.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:59Dan Pashman?

  Or both.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  You could go to a wing place and get great wings, and, but the hot is not really hot enough, which we would, so we would take off points for that. The most important category was overall flavor. Uh, so that was weighted like 40% against all the other categories.

• 12:15Dan Pashman?

  You know, I have said here on the Squawkful before that I object to spiciness for the sake of spiciness.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  I do think that there is, it's very, very silly when you start using extracts, um, to create a wing that's so hot that, that A, it doesn't have any of the flavor because you're using extracts, or it has that kind of bitter.

• 12:34Dan Pashman?

  Extracts basically is just ridiculous.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:37Dan Pashman?

  The most intense, pure spiciness you can add.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  It's just pulling the capsaicin out of the pepper, and it uses a chemical to do that, and then the chemical is discarded, but it leaves like a little imprint, so you can kind of taste that kind of chemically artificial flavor. Um, so it's, you're not getting the flavor of the peppers, all you're getting is the heat, and, you know, you create These wings where you have to sign a waiver to eat them and you have a contest. And if you eat six, they're free or you get a free T-shirt. And I mean, I think all of that is is pretty silly. You know, it's like, why not just have a contest where you let somebody punch you in the face? Or you you slice your lip open with a razor blade? You know, like, we did one of those. I got peer pressured into doing that at one of our stops. And it was probably good in the film because we addressed this point.

• 13:23Dan Pashman?

  Right, actually, I actually have that sound. Let's hear it. This is sort of the evolution as the spice sinks in more and more.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Right. At first, I'm like, you know, it's not so bad. And then it gets bad. It's a clean burn. I just ignore it. It's a carterizing burn. It is getting harder and it's hurting more.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  This is day one. And it like, it's a slow burn and it just doesn't stop building. Now it hurts when I breathe.

• 13:59Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, my conversation with Matt Reynolds gets deep. Matt said in the film, he wants to believe there's a perfect wing, a perfect day, a perfect relationship. Does he still believe that now? And what does his relationship with wings tell us about his relationship with his girlfriend? Plus, we'll eat wings together and I'll ask Matt to take a stand on my controversial opinion that wings would be better with the sauce on the side. Stay with us.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  It's time to open up a can of advertisements.

• 14:48Dan Pashman?

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• 15:33Dan Pashman?

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• 16:16Dan Pashman?

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• 16:55Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. Want to watch me walking my dog while ranting about some food-related issues that's on my mind? Want to see what I'm cooking? Want to see what I'm eating? The best way to do that is to follow me on Instagram. My kids make occasional appearances. There's a lot of fun to be had. So please follow me on Instagram @thesporful. Again, that's @thesporful. Thanks. Now, back to this week's reheat.

• 17:19Dan Pashman?

  I'm not a chef, but occasionally I get inspired. I like to share my creations. Now, I don't like my wings too spicy, but I do love them smoky. So I created a dish called "Where There's Smoke, There's No Need For Fire Chicken Wings." The recipe's up at sporkful.com. Now, let's return to my conversation with Matt Reynolds, director and star of The Great Chicken Wing Hunt. We got together at the Village Porthouse in New York. At the start of this show, I played the clip where you say, you know, you really believe there's a perfect wing out there. There's another part that listeners didn't hear where your girlfriend Lucy says, "Well, maybe instead of trying to find the perfect wing, you should just look for the best wing," which is an interesting distinction.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:00Dan Pashman?

  And I want to play another clip here. There's a moment when you're getting sort of discouraged about the wings that you're finding. You're driving across upstate New York, you're getting sort of a little wistful, and you say some things, and then it cuts to Lucy. She makes a comment, and then it goes back to you. Let's listen to that clip.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  A little bit surprised that we haven't found more people doing great things with wings. In a way, it mirrors like a lot of things in life. Most people aren't trying that hard. Most people don't care that much about what they're doing. I feel old saying that, but like, it's my experience.

• 18:35Speaker 03

  It's not only about chicken wings. I think it's not about chicken wings. It's about like fulfilling your dreams.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  I feel like I believe that everything that you can possibly imagine existing in the world is out there. And if you look hard enough, you'll find it, you know? And...

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Maybe that's not true.

• 18:57Dan Pashman?

  What's your take on that question now? Does the perfect wing exist? Is everything you can imagine existing out there if you look hard enough?

• 19:06Speaker 01

  I guess I'm less inclined to believe that those things exist. I think that, um, growing up in a small town, you can kind of imagine that, you can think that anything you could imagine must be out there somewhere in the world. And then when you have traveled and experienced more, you realize that people are very similar everywhere and that maybe there is less variation than you thought. So my thinking on that has changed. Um, we were, I guess you're chasing that moment where you just feel like, I can't imagine anything could be better. Um, and I guess in your line of work, you're always kind of chasing that, which is interesting. You're always looking for the, you know?

• 19:45Dan Pashman?

  Right. Well, because I've been, I've been writing a book and in the book, I identify this concept that I call perfect deliciousness. But I kind of describe it more as this platonic ideal. Maybe you don't ever get there, but you know, you're always just trying to get closer and closer.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:03Dan Pashman?

  Um, but it's kind of a double edged sword because on one hand, on one hand, I like the idea of always striving to make things more delicious. Always striving at everything in life to make it better and better. Always find a better way. So much of what I do here on The Sporkful is about finding new and better ways to eat.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:20Dan Pashman?

  So I think there's merit in the pursuit of perfection. But there's also the danger of setting yourself up for disappointment.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. It's kind of like love.

• 20:29Dan Pashman?

  Well, it's, so it's interesting because I do think this relates to your relationship with Lucy, which is a real part of the film. You know, as we said, at the top of the film, you're saying, I believe that there's a perfect wing. I believe that there's a perfect relationship. But it's clear that you at that point in the start of the film, feel like you haven't found either.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right.

• 20:51Dan Pashman?

  Even though at that point you had been with Lucy for six years.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. Yeah, there's kind of a parallel to like making a decision about the perfect wing and making a decision about... My relationship and or always be looking for something better.

• 21:07Dan Pashman?

  Right, exactly. Well, that's what I want to get to because at times Lucy in the film questions whether you love wings more than her.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 21:14Dan Pashman?

  And this is kind of, I was wondering whether maybe it's on some level what motivated you to go off on this hunt to quit your job and stop your work in Slovakia, come to the US and make this movie and do this and bring her. It is that you had gotten to this point in your relationship with Lucy that paralleled your relationship to wings.

• 21:36Dan Pashman?

  Which is sort of like, you know, it was really great, but you hadn't experienced perfection.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 21:42Dan Pashman?

  And so, so you, you were feeling restless and you're sort of plagued by this idea that that perfection is out there. I mean, you've been with this girl for six years.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 21:51Dan Pashman?

  And, I mean, no offense, because I'm sure you guys, you know, you seem like a great couple in the film and all, but you've been together for six years and she's still not sure if you love chicken wings more than her.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Right, right. That's not a great sign.

• 22:04Dan Pashman?

  All right. And so there's that. And then there's this idea of, of I want to find perfection.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:10Dan Pashman?

  Um, you know, with wings and I'm sort of chasing this impossible dream. But now what you're saying is that you're, without me even prompting, you're comparing your relationship to wings.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 22:19Dan Pashman?

  To love in that, you know, it isn't always the fairy tale.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:23Dan Pashman?

  I mean, is that a fair parallel? And what are your thoughts on that?

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I think it is a fair parallel. And I think maybe, uh, the process of going through this quest to find the perfect thing taught me uh, something about perfection and about life that is applicable to my relationship. I kind of go back and forth on it, to be honest with you, feeling like there's one person out there for me and kind of, you know, uh, allowing myself to indulge in the idea, this romantic notion of love. And then the more practical cynical side that thinks that, you know, you know, relationships are a lot of work and, and, you know, that's kind of the beauty of them is that you make this commitment and then, you know.

• 23:06Dan Pashman?

  But isn't that, I mean, I guess, and I think it's, it's, it's true with food as in love that, that. Maybe the best place to be is sort of a happy medium.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Right, right. Don't marry the first girl that you you you fell in love with, but.

• 23:18Dan Pashman?

  That's right, just like you said, don't give a 10 to the first wing that you eat.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 23:22Dan Pashman?

  You gotta give yourself room to give a higher score.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Exactly, but don't keep searching forever.

• 23:27Dan Pashman?

  Exactly, and understand that, you know, like, sometimes there can be two really freaking amazing wings, and you might have an intense debate with your friends at the end of a documentary comedy about which one should win the award.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  And eventually you just pick one.

• 23:39Dan Pashman?

  And eventually you just pick one, but you know what? You probably would have been pretty happy with either one, because they're both really great wings for you.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right.

• 23:47Dan Pashman?

  All right, should we eat some wings?

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  I'm having one while I listen to you because I'm hungry.

• 23:58Dan Pashman?

  Which one is that? Is that hot?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  This is a hot one.

• 24:00Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Is that okay?

• 24:00Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, no, go ahead, go ahead.

• 24:03Dan Pashman?

  There's two different shapes of wings. This is not something you got into in the film. There are the mini drumsticks or drumettes. And then the flats or paddles, that's the one that is the two parallel bones.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, the terms that I usually use are drummy and flatty.

• 24:16Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  But there's there's many different terms.

• 24:17Dan Pashman?

  That's right.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:20Dan Pashman?

  Do you have an opinion about which is better?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know, again, if this is an upstate New York thing and just growing up in the region, but I'm agnostic on that question, and most of the people that I grew up with who were wing eaters are.

• 24:32Dan Pashman?

  I'm shocked and disappointed to hear that.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's funny, I I like both. I kind of go back and forth on any given day, I might prefer one over the other. I think that the.

• 24:42Dan Pashman?

  What do you see as the pros and cons of each?

• 24:43Speaker 01

  I think that the meat in the flatty is a little tastier, there's more skin. Usually you get a little bit more sauce because it's a flat surface. And you can kind of, if you're dipping in the sauce, you can it retains sauce better. But it's more work.

• 24:59Dan Pashman?

  Matt, you're worried about more work? You're the man that is talking about this pursuit of perfection.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:03Dan Pashman?

  You're not willing to put in that hard work.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  I don't usually mind.

• 25:05Dan Pashman?

  Didn't you say in the movie that most people just aren't that committed to their jobs? They're not, are you willing to work a little harder?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  That's a good point. So if you if you only could eat one wing and you wanted to have the the the best possible taste experience, I guess you would go for the flatty.

• 25:18Dan Pashman?

  The meat to bone ratio. Of the flat is .66.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:24Dan Pashman?

  The meat to bone ratio of the drumstick, .49. In other words, more meat to bone in the flat. Plus more tender meat, as you say, because it's got more fat in it. So it's more meat and better meat in the flat. All you gotta do is, is have a good strategy to find out how to eat it.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  That's interesting. I would not have, I mean, there's that big chunk on the drum. That is a bigger chunk than any possible chunk on the flatty. So that's kind of what jumps out at you and you think, oh, more meat.

• 25:50Dan Pashman?

  But if you remove one of the bones from the flat that you see.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:54Dan Pashman?

  Let's eat some wings and we'll keep talking.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:55Dan Pashman?

  I'm curious to get your thoughts. This is, you know, you and I have been getting along real well here in this interview so far. But I think that things could take a turn south when I tell you that I believe that buffalo wings might be better. When served and eaten with the sauce on the side.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Wow. What, what is the advantage of? I'd like the idea of extra sauce on the side.

• 26:16Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  But why can't the wings also be sauce?

• 26:18Dan Pashman?

  Well, one of the criteria that you talk about in the film is crispiness.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 26:23Dan Pashman?

  When you sauce wings, you are automatically reducing crisp.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 26:27Dan Pashman?

  And the only counter argument I can imagine is that there's a certain sort of absorption that takes place.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:32Dan Pashman?

  When the wings sit in sauce. One of the places that you go to in the film. They actually said that, made a point of saying that we don't mix the wings with the sauce.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  We paint the sauce on.

• 26:41Dan Pashman?

  We paint the sauce on because we don't want the wings to get soggy by, by stirring them around a lot. So clearly it's a concern.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  This is a great wing, Matt.

• 26:50Dan Pashman?

  I'm so glad you like it. Why not eat wings with the sauce on the side?

• 26:55Speaker 01

  You know, I am not as dogmatic as one might think. I think that, that could be a fine way to eat wings. To be honest with you, I, I think.

• 27:04Dan Pashman?

  But is it better? Is it closer to perfection?

• 27:07Speaker 01

  I am open to that notion. I, I think. You look disappointed. Were you spoiling for a fight?

• 27:13Dan Pashman?

  I want, a little bit, yes, but I also want, I want you to take a stand on whether or not it might be better.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 27:20Dan Pashman?

  Than the traditional way.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Try it and then?

• 27:22Dan Pashman?

  Yes, let's try it.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Okay. Do you want to do a play by play and I'll, uh?

• 27:25Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, Matt's gonna take a wing.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  So here's where you run into problems. So my flatty will not go into the, the, the small dipping bowl that I've been given. So I'm going to have to pour onto my flatty, which is fine, but I'm going to very quickly run out of sauce. It's, it's, it is, I believe, an inconvenient way to eat wings, but the question here is, is it better? So let's, let's set aside the, the point about it being harder for a second. I'm going to, I'm going to bite into the wing.

• 27:53Dan Pashman?

  Matt has poured the sauce over the wing and is now biting in.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  That was good. That was very crispy. Let me do a controlled bite of a wing that has already been sauced.

• 28:04Dan Pashman?

  Please do. We need like a crispometer, like a, a sort of a sound effect detector that can detect crisp and crunch.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  I, you know, I, you know, my snap, my first reaction is that, you know, you're, I think you're onto something here, Dan. The wings are slightly crispier when you pour the sauce on or dip the sauce on. You have to go to more work, obviously, but I think they are a little better that way.

• 28:31Dan Pashman?

  Wow. Well, that concludes the interview. Matt Reynolds, director and star of The Great Chicken Wing Hunt. Matt, I really enjoyed the film. I love your perspective on wings and love, and you're obviously a wise man. I look forward to seeing what you're going to do next.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's been a pleasure eating these wings. I hope people enjoy the movie. I mean, I think there's something, you know, for everybody, even people who aren't super into food, but I'm talking to people who are listening to a food podcast, so.

• 29:00Dan Pashman?

  The Great Chicken Wing Hunt is available on DVD and as a digital download. You can get it at chickenwinghunt.com. This show is a production of WNYC and The Sporkful. It's produced by Anne Sannie. Our web writers are Talia Ralph and Alay Trong. Special thanks to Chris Bannon. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 29:47Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by

• 29:48Speaker 04

  Gianna Palmer.

• 29:50Dan Pashman?

  The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer

• 29:53Speaker 04

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 29:54Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era. Plus, live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app, all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 30:36Speaker 05

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So, when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's Syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color

• 31:20Speaker 05

  changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTC or visit Nurtac.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist, or whatever's keeping you going today.

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