Pod Insights The Sporkful This Memphis Restaurateur Thrives On Chaos (Live) About this episode Dan is live on stage in Memphis with famed local restaurateur Karen Blockman Carrier! Karen grew up Orthodox Jewish in Memphis, and she wanted to be a painter. But after a chance meeting with a caterer in a smoke-filled bathroom stall in New York City, she decided to focus on food.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Dan Pashman? As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean. Whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider. Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways
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1:01 Dan Pashman? This episode contains references to drug use.
1:06 Dan Pashman? This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And we're coming to you live from the Buckman Performing Arts Center in Memphis.
1:28 Dan Pashman? Very good Memphis, well done. Thank you all so much for being here. It's great to be here for our first live taping in the South, not counting Atlanta, which I guess is the South. But I mean, I probably have to cut that out because I'm going to insult people in Atlanta. That's the South. Thank you all for being here for our first ever live taping in Tennessee. We'll go with that, okay?
1:53 Dan Pashman? Hey, everyone. Quick note before we get into this week's episode that we are celebrating the South all month long here on The Sporkful. I recently took this road trip across Alabama and Mississippi. I stopped to chow down at a bunch of gas station eateries, something the South is famous for. I dined on chicken spaghetti, gas station sushi, and more. I met a lot of great folks along the way, and we will have that episode for you next week. Then later this month, we'll have a feature on legendary cookbook author Edna Lewis, then a story about a barbecue pitmaster and preacher in rural Tennessee. But today, kicking off our month in the South, we're live from Memphis.
2:30 Dan Pashman? My guest tonight was born and raised here in Memphis. As a young woman, she moved to New York, where she was involved in the art scene and opened Automatic Slims, a restaurant that's become an institution there. She returned home to Memphis and started a catering business, often cooking for movie stars who came to town for shoots. Tapping into her art background, she opened a series of restaurants in increasingly unlikely spaces around Memphis, from an old Victorian home to a former hair salon. As ambitious as these restaurant concepts are, she's known to toss them out and completely revamp a place when she feels pulled in a new creative direction. Today, she's a fixture of the Memphis restaurant scene and the person behind the Molly Fontaine Lounge, the Beauty Shop Restaurant, a music club called Bar DKDC, and more.
3:13 Dan Pashman? Please welcome Karen Blockman Carrier.
3:21 Dan Pashman? All right.
3:23 Dan Pashman? You just got back from Jamaica.
3:26 Speaker 01 Yes, last night.
3:28 Dan Pashman? Which I gather is a place where you spend a lot of time.
3:30 Speaker 01 Since 1976, every year. And I came back for you.
3:34 Dan Pashman? Well, thank you.
3:35 Speaker 01 I would have stayed.
3:35 Dan Pashman? I'm very honored.
3:36 Speaker 01 Definitely.
3:37 Dan Pashman? Thank you. I'm very honored. What do you love about it?
3:41 Speaker 01 The food, the people, I can go there and just chill out. When I get there, I kiss the ground and I take a drive with my friends to Negril to the West End. And the rest is history. I can relax. I don't, I de-stress.
3:57 Dan Pashman? And has the time you've spent there influenced your cooking?
4:00 Speaker 01 Oh, absolutely. I've worked with Ms. Winnie. She was a squatter on the beach. Her son would come and help her bring her pots and pans from Little London, which is a place about an hour from Negril. And he would dig a hole in the sand and she would start a fire. She would actually make her own coconut milk, her own sour sap juice, and put everything into like rum bottles and go sell them on the beach. It was, it was unbelievable. She made patties for us and everything. Once I brought 16 staff from Slims about two years after I opened, which was the craziest thing that I ever did. And she cooked for us. Like one night, we got her to cook for us. It was amazing. And just a big communal table with all her food. And people were like, what the heck? This is great.
4:43 Speaker 01 But yeah, her food has influenced me for years and still from literally the seventies all the way to what I'm doing now. She's passed away now, but I'm telling you, she was amazing.
4:56 Dan Pashman? So we're, we're gonna work our way towards the present day, but let's go back.
5:00 Speaker 01 Okay.
5:00 Dan Pashman? A little bit. Let's go all the way back.
5:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's a long way.
5:04 Dan Pashman? To 1952. You were born in Memphis in 1952.
5:07 Speaker 01 Gee, thanks.
5:09 Dan Pashman? I mean, Karen, you don't seem like the kind of person who's gonna try to hide your age.
5:13 Speaker 01 No, right.
5:14 Dan Pashman? It seems like you're still rocking.
5:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:16 Dan Pashman? So, you know, I think it's all good.
5:18 Speaker 01 It is all good.
5:20 Dan Pashman? Tell me about the food you ate at home growing up.
5:22 Speaker 01 I was raised in an Orthodox Jewish home, so we kept kosher. And my mother still keeps kosher to this day. So I never ate any bacon, shellfish. I didn't know what any of it was at all. So I'll tell you a story. When I was at the Art Academy here in Memphis, it was an art school.
5:38 Dan Pashman? This was like when you were in your twenties?
5:39 Speaker 01 Well, actually, probably 1920, yeah.
5:42 Dan Pashman? Okay.
5:42 Speaker 01 And so I went to this place called Berkels Bakery, which was now Overton Square. And it was a meat and three and a bakery. And all our art students went there. So the first year we were there, I think it was like the first month, and we went there to have some lunch or whatever. And this waitress came up and she goes, you know, what do you want? I said, well, what's catfish? And she looked at me, she had teased red hair and her big eyebrows painted on. She went, Shug, where are you from? And I went, I'm from Memphis. She goes, well, what'd you eat growing up? And I went, brisket, semis, matzo ball soup, gefilte fish. And she looked at me like I was from another planet. So yes, that's what I grew up eating.
6:20 Dan Pashman? Right, right. And so did you get the catfish?
6:22 Speaker 01 Absolutely got the catfish.
6:24 Dan Pashman? And what'd you think of it?
6:24 Speaker 01 It was excellent.
6:25 Dan Pashman? And you were like, I've been missing out.
6:28 Speaker 01 Absolutely. And the next day I had some BLT. Yeah. I have a whole nother story about the bacon situation, but-
6:34 Dan Pashman? Tell me that story.
6:35 Speaker 01 Oh, my gosh. I don't know if I should tell that story. Well, we were kosher, so there was no bacon in our house. But my parents were out of town and it was, we graduated from, I graduated from high school and we were having a party at my house and needless to say, it was, you know, 1970 and there was a lot of things going on. And it was early in the morning and we were all waking up and there was a ton of people there and somebody said, oh, I'm gonna cook breakfast. I didn't think much about it. They started cooking breakfast. I came out and oh my God, they were cooking bacon. They had gone to the store. And I'm like, oh no, okay. So thinking, you know, my parents are out of town, whatever, but I knew I had screwed that house up. And that was really bad. And
7:17 Speaker 01 so somebody goes, Karen, there's somebody driving up the driveway. I was like, you're crazy. They were like, Karen, somebody's driving up the driveway. And it was my parents. And I'm like-
7:26 Dan Pashman? They had like come home early?
7:27 Speaker 01 Holy shit. What are we doing? They came home early and everybody left. They scattered like ants. They left me basically holding the bacon, you know? It was a mess. And I mean, it was bad. I mean, I had de-kosherized the home. And it was, that was really sacrilegious. It was terrible. She just looked at me. Just looked at me. That look could kill. I was like, I was wanting to run, but I had no place to hide. It was messed up. But I had to dig a hole in the backyard and bury all the pots and pans.
8:02 Dan Pashman? That's what you have to do. That's the-
8:04 Speaker 01 That's exactly right. Yeah.
8:05 Dan Pashman? That's the rule. Like if you-
8:06 Speaker 01 So, I hope my mother's-
8:07 Dan Pashman? De-kosherize pots and pans.
8:09 Speaker 01 Yes.
8:14 Dan Pashman? So, another thing that you did growing up is you had a lot of family in New York.
8:19 Speaker 01 Oh, yes.
8:20 Dan Pashman? So, as a grade school, high school student, you would, in summers, you had family trips to New York City to visit other family there.
8:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely.
8:27 Dan Pashman? And I gather that one family member who had an especially strong impression on you was your Aunt Gloria.
8:32 Speaker 01 Yes.
8:33 Dan Pashman? Tell me about Aunt Gloria.
8:34 Speaker 01 Aunt Gloria was my mother's sister. They're completely opposite. So, my family came from London after World War II and came over, actually, they got to Memphis because the Bell's family had heard my grandfather singing in London. And my grandfather was a cantor, so he came over and...
8:50 Dan Pashman? So, that's like a notable Memphis Jewish family. They heard your grandfather singing in London, and they said, "We want him to be the cantor, who's the person that does the singing at the prayer service, here at the temple in Memphis."
9:00 Speaker 01 That's exactly right. And so, that's how my mom, they all got here, and then she met my father. But the rest of them, my grandfather got a really big job in Jamaica Estates, Queens, at Hillcrest, and so, they all moved up to New York. My aunt was a painter. She was an artist. And she was, she mesmerized me. She was just wild. Very, very much in the late 50s, she did these big mosaics down in my grandparents' basement. She would do them, they'd be 15 feet wide, you know. And I would just sit there and watch her. But her best friend was Nina Simone. So, Nina Simone and her would take me shoe shopping at Bloomingdale's when I was a kid. And they were nuts. They incessantly smoked, and they
9:45 Speaker 01 were just horrible to the shoe people. And they, I'd sit there going, "Aunt Gloria, why are you being so mean?" "Karen, just, no." And, "Okay, okay." They wore turbans on their heads. That's why I wear a lot of hats. You know, my aunt, she was always just really flamboyant. And I was, I just, I loved her. I couldn't get enough of her.
10:09 Dan Pashman? So Aunt Gloria, she was an artist.
10:12 Speaker 01 She was a great painter and a great, she was a great artist.
10:15 Dan Pashman? And did you see her and think like?
10:19 Speaker 01 I want to be an artist. I want to be just like her. I want to look like her. I want to dress like her. You know, when you're a kid, that's sort of like a big deal.
10:27 Dan Pashman? Right. In 1970, you went to the University of Oklahoma.
10:30 Speaker 01 That's right.
10:31 Dan Pashman? And then to the Memphis Academy of Art. 1980, you're 28, you moved to New York to go to Hunter College on an art scholarship. But even with the scholarship, New York City is an expensive place to live.
10:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:44 Dan Pashman? You realized you could use some money and you happened to meet a woman who works for Martha Stewart.
10:50 Speaker 01 Well, yes. Now Sarah Jane's from Memphis. She's from Humboldt, Tennessee. And she had gone up and gone. She'd, I'd stand in touch with her. I said, I'm moving to New York. I'm going to start, you know, graduate school. And she goes, Karen, if you want a job, you need to go to this New York restaurant school. I did it for six weeks, 10 hours a day. They started you in sauces and butchering and catering and, you know, mother sauces. All French chefs that taught us. And I met all these people. It was just, I loved it. I think it was also the family, everybody cooking together and really learning and the taste. I just, it was fun. It was really, really fun. And I was learning something new and I always like a challenge. I get bored, you know, as a painter, you get bored. It's another painting. You got to start doing it.
11:32 Speaker 01 But yeah, so what happened was Sarah Jane had been in New York for a few years. She was living in Connecticut and she started working for Martha. And then she actually started running her catering business.
11:43 Dan Pashman? Did you ever actually work for Martha?
11:45 Speaker 01 Once.
11:47 Dan Pashman? Once for how long?
11:49 Speaker 01 One night.
11:51 Dan Pashman? For one night? What did you do?
11:53 Speaker 01 Well, it was actually the opening of her entertaining book.
11:57 Dan Pashman? Oh, that's the, that's the book that put her on the map.
11:59 Speaker 01 It's the book that put her on the map. And she brought all the press in to her place in Connecticut. So I went up there and she had me grilling smelts. Have you ever tried to grill a smelt?
12:09 Dan Pashman? Those are like fish that are like the size of anchovies.
12:13 Speaker 01 That's exactly right. But it was on a rented grill. Well, rented grill grates are about this far apart. They're not little.
12:20 Dan Pashman? The gaps between the grates is very wide.
12:23 Speaker 01 Yes.
12:24 Dan Pashman? So all the smelts were falling in the grates.
12:26 Speaker 01 They were all falling in. I wasn't getting anywhere.
12:28 Dan Pashman? You're like Lucy and Ethel on the assembly line, except the smelt's going down the grates.
12:31 Speaker 01 That's right. Putting them on. And so, you know, anyway, it was like, what's going on wrong over here? I was like, this is not working. I said, you need to put me in the smokehouse. And she was like, excuse me. So one of her assistants, they said, okay, that's great. She's from Memphis, but her in the smokehouse. Perfect. I could hide. They didn't know where I was. Smoke other things. It was great.
12:57 Dan Pashman? Then you had another chance meeting, this time in a New York City bathroom.
13:02 Speaker 01 That's right, at the Lone Star Cafe. So we were graduating, we graduated from the cooking school that day. And we all went out to have a big party. And there was a whole bunch of us. And I was in the bathroom and I overheard somebody talking about they were a caterer looking for some help. They need to prep people, but also smelled something coming out in the bathroom. And I kicked the stall door open and went, I need a job. And what are you smoking over there? And so it was serendipitous. It was weird.
13:32 Dan Pashman? Come on now, Karen, did you really not know what they were smoking?
13:35 Speaker 01 I knew what they were smoking.
13:40 Dan Pashman? All right. So she's, so this, this woman's smoking a joint in the bathroom.
13:44 Speaker 01 That's right.
13:44 Dan Pashman? And you say, A, I need a job, and B, can I have some of that joint?
13:48 Speaker 01 Exactly.
13:49 Dan Pashman? Not necessarily in that order.
13:50 Speaker 01 Well, pretty much the other way around. I need the joint and I need a job. Exactly.
13:56 Dan Pashman? And she says yes to both?
13:57 Speaker 01 Yes. And she goes, you know, tomorrow morning, come to this address, she wrote it down, and on Avenue A. And I got up and I went down there and, oh my God, I got out of the subway and I was like, what is happening down here? It was First and A. Back then, it was 1980. It was, it was pretty, a little sketchy.
14:17 Dan Pashman? Right. So Avenue A and First Street, in 1980, in New York City, was kind of like the end of the earth.
14:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was. It was a lot of, you know, junkies and I was stepping over people. I was like, are they dead? Are they alive? I don't know. I get to her apartment or I get to the place, the door, and I'm like buzzing, knocking, nobody comes. I'm down there 20 minutes. So finally, I was like, what the heck? And so somebody opens a window and says, Karen, is that you? And they're up on the fourth floor or whatever. And she throws down like a monkey sock with a key in it, you know? And I open the door and I got these rickety stairs going up and I'm like, the hell's going on? So I get, and there's this door is open on the third or fourth floor, and this smells coming out of there. And I'll walk in and she has all these little apartment-sized stoves, all pushed together to make like a big stove, you know? There were women from Belize
15:08 Speaker 01 and Mexico, and they were getting ready to go to gigs and packing up. And there was a guy sitting there making gumbo. And this is Tony Garnier, who has been with Dylan for 40 years now. He runs his band. He's a great bass player, but he, him and Susanna, it's her and his-
15:25 Dan Pashman? So it's Bob Dylan's bass player's apartment?
15:27 Speaker 01 Right. But he wasn't with Bob then.
15:29 Dan Pashman? Okay.
15:29 Speaker 01 Okay. He got with Bob about three years later.
15:31 Dan Pashman? All right. And he's sharing the apartment with his girlfriend at the time, who is the woman that you met the previous night in the bathroom?
15:37 Speaker 01 That's right.
15:38 Dan Pashman? And that woman turns out to be Susanna Trilling?
15:40 Speaker 01 That's right, Chef Susanna Trilling.
15:41 Dan Pashman? Who is, for folks who-
15:43 Speaker 01 She was, well, she's an incredible chef. She has a cooking school now in Oaxaca, Mexico, 35 years. And she had a PBS show. She has a cookbook out. She was brilliant. And she became basically my mentor. It really changed my whole life because she said, Karen, you need to quit graduate school. We're gonna open a restaurant. I was like, what? I said, no, man, I can't do that. She goes, oh, yeah, you can. And I did. Because it was a lot more fun with her than it was in graduate school. And I was like, you know what? You're right. I'm gonna start doing this. This is great. And I just, that's what I started doing.
16:18 Dan Pashman? So that was really a moment when you-
16:20 Speaker 01 Dropped out.
16:22 Dan Pashman? Right, but also that you pivoted.
16:25 Speaker 01 I did.
16:26 Dan Pashman? That was the moment that you went from thinking, I want to be a painter and I'm going to work in food on the side to pay the bills.
16:31 Speaker 01 Right.
16:32 Dan Pashman? To saying, the painting is going to be a side interest and my career is going to be working in food.
16:39 Speaker 01 But you know what? What she showed me was that food was art and it changed everything. The way it was presented, the taste, the composition, everything sort of made sense to me. And also I was really getting to see New York City. You know, we did unbelievable stuff. We did the opening of the Nile Wing at the Met.
17:00 Dan Pashman? I mean, you were catering Calvin Klein's 50th birthday.
17:03 Speaker 01 Right.
17:04 Dan Pashman? You catered parties for the director, Mike Nichols, where Carrie Fisher and Paul Simon were coming. They were married at the time. Whoopi Goldberg was coming to hang out. Then you would get a knock on the door in the middle of the party and who would show up?
17:15 Speaker 01 Jack Nicholson.
17:18 Speaker 01 That was crazy because nobody would answer the door. And so the doorbell's ringing and I'm like, isn't there like a butler here or something? And Susanna's out there serving because they had a huge round table, you know, they just put out Heartburn, the movie.
17:33 Dan Pashman? Mike Nichols had.
17:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, Meryl Streep, they were all there. And so, yeah, so Jack shows, he's late, obviously. So I like go open the door and it's snowing outside. And he's sitting there and he's got this big overcoat on and he's got this big lid of pot coming out of his coat. And I'm looking at him, you know, and I'm pointing out, he goes, are you going to let me in? I mean, it's snowing. And I go, oh, yeah, yeah, right. So I open the door and he looks at me, he goes, so do you want to smoke some? I'm like, yeah, sure. So he comes into the kitchen, he's on the kitchen table and Susanna's coming there.
18:05 Dan Pashman? He's rolling a joint.
18:06 Speaker 01 He's rolling a joint and he, and she's like, Karen, we have to, and I go, Susanna? Meet Jack Nicholson. She goes, are you kidding me? You're kidding me. I go, uh-uh. And I'm not telling him to stop doing what he's doing because it's just, it's his shit now, you know? It was a great night.
18:24 Dan Pashman? So, so what kinds of food are you and Susanna making at these parties?
18:29 Speaker 01 Susanna is part Mexican. You know, the salsas and tomatillos and roasted porcs and everything had like these beautiful chilies that were part of it. But she would do it in a way that was more traditional, so people wouldn't be scared of the food. Because back then, it was, you know, the eighties, people, Tex-Mex was just coming into fad, you know? Cajun food was getting there, but the chilies hadn't really hit the scene in New York City then.
18:57 Dan Pashman? But then eventually she decided to move to Australia. You decided to open your first restaurant.
19:01 Speaker 01 Yep.
19:02 Dan Pashman? In New York City.
19:03 Speaker 01 Yep.
19:04 Dan Pashman? Automatic Slims.
19:05 Speaker 01 Yep.
19:06 Dan Pashman? Describe Automatic Slims for us.
19:07 Speaker 01 Oh, my God. Automatic Slims has three tables and a bar that seats 16, and that's it. It's a sliver of a place at the corner of Bank and Washington. But my friend's father owned the building. And so I had met these two guys at the New Orleans Jazz Fest that summer before, and the guy had taken my number and he calls me like eight months, a year or two later, whatever, and he goes, "Hey Karen, we're gonna open this bar. We want you to come be the chef." And so I went down there and I was like, "Are you kidding? This place is teeny." And, but, you know, I was like, "Screw it, Susanna's leaving, this is good." And I started a catering company called Lunch Catering. We started catering for the fashion photographers.
19:50 Speaker 01 So Steve Mizell, Herb Ritz, and all these really great fashion photographers in the eighties.
19:55 Dan Pashman? And what was on the menu at Automatic Slims?
19:57 Speaker 01 It was a Memphis juke joint. We basically served soul food. Pulled pork sandwiches.
20:03 Dan Pashman? I assume you didn't tell anyone that you didn't eat catfish till you were 19?
20:06 Speaker 01 No, I didn't. We didn't serve catfish, actually. We did not do that.
20:11 Dan Pashman? Still, that might've ruined your cred, Karen.
20:13 Speaker 01 Right, exactly. But we did serve soul food. It was funny.
20:17 Dan Pashman? And it was a success?
20:19 Speaker 01 It still is.
20:20 Dan Pashman? I mean, and that opened what year?
20:23 Speaker 01 We opened in 1986.
20:25 Dan Pashman? Wow, so that's...
20:27 Speaker 01 A long time ago.
20:28 Dan Pashman? 38 years ago.
20:29 Speaker 01 Yep.
20:30 Dan Pashman? And you, and it's still there and you still own it?
20:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, me and David.
20:34 Dan Pashman? 38 years, I mean, that's extraordinary for any restaurant.
20:37 Speaker 01 It is.
20:38 Dan Pashman? To be open and successful for 38 years.
20:40 Speaker 01 But you know, the bar, it's a great bar.
20:44 Dan Pashman? So, late 80s, you moved back to Memphis.
20:48 Speaker 01 Yes, I happened to have to go to New York to meet a guy from Memphis to get married. Unbelievable.
20:54 Dan Pashman? So, and that's what brought you back to Memphis?
20:56 Speaker 01 Uh huh.
20:57 Dan Pashman? You fell in love?
20:58 Speaker 01 Yep.
20:59 Dan Pashman? With a Memphian who was living in New York? And so, the two of you decided to move?
21:02 Speaker 01 No, he moved back before I did. And then we got married and I went back to New York. And then I got pregnant and then I didn't want to move back. I just didn't want to move back. And so, I'd come back every three weeks to see him. But then, when you're seven months pregnant on Northwest Airlines, they won't let you fly anymore. So, I'd wear these big coats. They'd go, Karen, open your coat. I'd go, no, man, I'm fine. I don't want to come back.
21:26 Dan Pashman? Karen, you're cut off!
21:28 Speaker 01 Right, exactly. Well, they finally said, you've got to make a decision. You can stay here, you've got to go to Memphis, but you can't fly anymore. And so, I packed it up. And yeah, I came back and didn't know what to do.
21:39 Dan Pashman? But did you always know you would come back to Memphis?
21:42 Speaker 01 Yep.
21:43 Dan Pashman? Why?
21:44 Speaker 01 It's my home. I love the city. I love the music. I love the people. I love the energy. It's a great, creative city, you know? It's amazing. It's got a lot of just bubbling energy in the people. I mean, I grew up in the music scene here, you know? I grew up during Stax and the soul music and, you know, Sam and David played our, you know, high school dances. And I learned how to dance to James Brown at the Goodwill Reviews.
22:11 Dan Pashman? But with him, with James Brown, on the stage, playing?
22:13 Speaker 01 He was on the stage.
22:14 Dan Pashman? Not like a DJ was playing a record of James Brown and he learned to dance.
22:17 Speaker 01 No.
22:18 Dan Pashman? You learned to dance watching James Brown actually perform.
22:20 Speaker 01 Watching James Brown, yeah, yeah. The women would say, get up, girl. I, okay. I get up.
22:25 Dan Pashman? That's pretty good.
22:27 Speaker 01 Yeah. It's just, it's in my blood.
22:36 Dan Pashman? Coming up, Karen returns to Memphis and launches her career there. A period that includes opening a restaurant in a century-old mansion and a stint as Tom Cruise's personal chef. Stick around.
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25:10 Dan Pashman? Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Last couple of weeks here on the show, we've been posing some big questions about recipes. Are the cook and prep times listed at the top of a recipe lying to you? What makes a recipe good or bad? And is there a better way to write a recipe for the average home cook? When I talked to food writer Elizabeth Dunn, she didn't hold back.
25:29 Speaker 03 There is no such thing as a 15-minute recipe. If you're really, if you are really taking into account all of the time that goes into executing a recipe, like from the moment I step into my kitchen and I read that recipe to the moment I've washed the last pan, I'm gonna say a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is a 15-minute recipe. Not something that has 14 ingredients and involves getting three different pans out. Like, that is, that is not a 15-minute recipe.
25:58 Dan Pashman? We got a huge reaction to these episodes, especially our "Is This Recipe Lying to You?" episode. It might have broken the record for emails from listeners, so thank you so much. Pamela from California expressed her frustration with recipe videos that don't reflect the actual recipes as written. Some listeners wrote in with suggestions for a clearer way to format recipes, from putting certain steps in bold to noting which ingredients will require prep, like chopping or peeling. And Anna in New Jersey emailed us that she's always griped about recipe times, but quote, "I was not expecting to cry. Your segment with Elizabeth Dunn made me feel so seen." Find out why these two episodes about recipes have hit such a nerve and share one with a friend. They're both in your feed right now. Okay, back to Karen Blockman Carrier.
26:42 Dan Pashman? In the late 80s, Karen moves back to Memphis. She's gotta figure out what she wants to do with her life. She's been gone for almost a decade. Now she's back in her hometown. She gives birth to her first child soon after she returns. And her husband Bob, he's bought this big old Victorian home for the family to live in. So Karen decides to start running a catering company out of the house. From there, she opens her first restaurant in Memphis, an outpost of automatic slims that's very different from the one she opened in New York. For starters, the Memphis Slims isn't straight-up soul food.
27:10 Speaker 01 It was everything I had learned in New York and, and from Susanna and from Miss Winnie and from, you know, Israel. And it was a cross-culture of a lot of cuisines, which is my life, really.
27:23 Dan Pashman? What are some of the menu items that stick out in your memory?
27:26 Speaker 01 Wachinanga. Wachinanga was the whole fish from the Yucatan. I was there and they took us deep-sea fishing and then we were gonna go catch barracudas. No barracudas were... Coming out that day, so they said, "Well, we're gonna keep going, we're gonna keep going." They caught all this red snapper. And when we came back, they had this big vat of oil and they just seasoned it and threw it in there. This fish was the best thing I'd ever put in my mouth. So I was like, "Oh, man, if I ever opened a restaurant, this is going." So that was one of the things I had on it. And, um, oh my God, we had the cowboy Travis steak and we had coconut mango shrimp and stuff that really people still remember to this day, which is-
28:03 Dan Pashman? Chicken Havanna's?
28:05 Speaker 01 Chicken Havanna's. Well, you did your homework.
28:07 Dan Pashman? I do. Well, I, when I was in your restaurant today and I was, I walked by the bathroom and there were articles up on the wall-
28:12 Speaker 01 Oh.
28:13 Dan Pashman? And I was reading the articles off the wall and one of them was listing menu items from Automatic Slims in Memphis. I was taking notes.
28:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, you did good.
28:19 Dan Pashman? Yeah, right. The other thing's the article referenced was something called a screaming Mimi salad.
28:24 Speaker 01 That's a wedge.
28:25 Dan Pashman? And a Brazilian sad salad.
28:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, Brazilian. That was Bob's favorite salad.
28:29 Dan Pashman? What was, what was the Brazilian sad salad?
28:31 Speaker 01 That's, it's, it's like a hot salad. So where you like take all the turnip greens or, you know, collard greens and sliver them up and saute them really quick. Usually you use like a bacon drippings or whatever, but we didn't do that. We just used olive oil and stuff, but-
28:47 Dan Pashman? Why is it sad?
28:49 Speaker 01 Because it's cooked.
28:50 Dan Pashman? Oh, so it's like, it's like it's wilted a little bit.
28:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's a warm salad. It's a sad salad.
28:56 Dan Pashman? Interesting. I never heard that expression.
28:57 Speaker 01 It's very sad.
28:58 Dan Pashman? I was reading that there were reviews from the time when you opened Automatic Slims in Memphis that called the restaurant daring, exuberant, eclectic, and risk-taking. What was it about the place that elicited those descriptions?
29:12 Speaker 01 I don't think Memphis had ever seen anything like this before because the interior, when you walked in... So you have to realize that the people who actually helped me build this and on design it were my friends from art school. So my contractor was not a contractor, he was a sculptor. Julia is an interior designer. She was my best friend. We were roommates and she went to art school with me. I've known her since ninth grade. So it was just labor of love of all these artists that came together. And the bar was made out of poplar, a huge poplar tree. The walls were mango. We had photographs that Bill Spears, who took the photographs of Elvis, we had those on the walls. I mean, it was-
29:57 Speaker 01 Copper leaf tables and we had a mezzanine and we have folk art sculptures that came down the banister and it was just these crazy light sculptures and lights that my husband was a lighting director so it was something to see you know it was across the street from the Peabody you could walk out of the Peabody Hotel walk right in there. It was something really new for Memphis. They could turn their head 360 degrees and see something different. And also when you sat down then the food was visual and then the tastes were different. So it just sort of hit them all at once.
30:28 Dan Pashman? It's like full color, everything. I imagine the restaurant also feeling like crowded in a good way.
30:36 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
30:37 Dan Pashman? A lot of stuff packed in there, a lot going on.
30:40 Speaker 01 Well, it was a lot going on. We couldn't even open for lunch for four months because we were too busy. It was just wacky.
30:50 Dan Pashman? So Automatic Slims was a hit in Memphis. Your catering business kept growing.
30:55 Speaker 01 Yep.
30:56 Dan Pashman? You worked as a personal chef to a bunch of stars when they were coming through the city to shoot movies. Now, just I'm curious, like I'm sure this is partly because you were known as a great chef in the city, but your husband worked in movies, right?
31:07 Speaker 01 Right.
31:08 Dan Pashman? So was that also part of the reason why they knew to come to you?
31:10 Speaker 01 Yes. But when the firm started here, they were looking, they had called me looking for a chef for Tom.
31:17 Dan Pashman? That's the, there's a movie based on a John Grisham book and starred Tom Cruise.
31:20 Speaker 01 Yeah. There was a lot of John Grisham movies made in Memphis, which was great at the time. And so when they called me looking for a chef, I was like, I can do this. I went and I interviewed with him and I got the job and yeah.
31:32 Dan Pashman? Interviewed with Tom Cruise?
31:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, I went and cooked for him. Yeah.
31:36 Dan Pashman? What'd you cook?
31:37 Speaker 01 Sesame pecan chicken, which you ate today.
31:40 Dan Pashman? Oh, that was so good.
31:41 Speaker 01 That's what they told me you ate today.
31:42 Dan Pashman? Yes, yes. I was, I was at the beauty shop restaurant, beauty shop restaurant today.
31:46 Speaker 01 Um, but notes to us.
31:47 Dan Pashman? Sesame pecan chicken. It was like fried chicken, but with this sesame pecan crust that was so, so good.
31:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:53 Dan Pashman? Wow, me and Tom.
31:57 Dan Pashman? Who knew, there's so many delicious things on that menu, but that just jumped out at me.
32:02 Speaker 01 That's crazy.
32:03 Dan Pashman? I guess Tom and I have more in common than I thought.
32:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, but it was...
32:07 Dan Pashman? So you made him your sesame pecan crusted chicken jus on a biscuit like I had today?
32:12 Speaker 01 No, no biscuits. I can't remember. It's been a while. I had to squeeze him a lot of beet juice. My hands were like red every day, you know, it's like, okay.
32:21 Dan Pashman? How does it work? Does he give you, like, okay, I need this many meals a week, or these are some things I like? Or he must give you some guidance for what to cook.
32:28 Speaker 01 No, not really. I just knew that he was very health oriented, you know, but he rented a house with a moat around it. Seriously. And it was amazing, because you know, you drive in there, there'd be deers running around and stuff like that.
32:42 Dan Pashman? Did you ever make him coconut cake?
32:44 Speaker 01 No, I don't bake.
32:46 Dan Pashman? Oh, okay. Did he ever request coconut cake?
32:49 Speaker 01 Uh, no.
32:50 Dan Pashman? Oh, okay. Because he's famous for this coconut cake in LA. He sends, it's known to be like his holiday gift. To like everyone he works with, if you work with him on a movie, he'll send you the Tom Cruise coconut cake. You can order it online, and I love coconut cakes. I've ordered, and I mean, it's gotten too much buzz now as the Tom Cruise coconut cake. So now the price is outrageous.
33:12 Speaker 01 Right.
33:13 Dan Pashman? But I did order it like a few months ago for my Aunt Merrill.
33:17 Speaker 01 Oh, really?
33:17 Dan Pashman? Well, my Aunt Merrill, I had ordered it for her once as a gift because she loved coconut cake. And then she passed away, so for her like funeral and shiva, I said, I'm ordering the special coconut cake.
33:26 Speaker 01 And you ate it all?
33:27 Dan Pashman? I ate a lot of it. I shared it. I shared it. But it's really good. It's really good.
33:36 Dan Pashman? You mentioned that you and your husband, you were living in this 1886 Victorian home. You're running a catering company out of it, but after a while, you decided to do what with it?
33:46 Speaker 01 I decided I didn't want to sell it, and so I made it into Cielo, which was sort of a Caribbean French restaurant. Sort of more fine dining and, which is not really my style, but we did open it up and we had a lounge upstairs. And that tended to be where everybody gathered. And we were open for about 10 years, and then I was like, I don't want to do tablecloth anymore. I don't want to do this. And I closed down for three months and then opened the Molly Fontaine Lounge, which became just the lounge. It's like walking into someone's home.
34:19 Dan Pashman? Like, walk me through the moment when you decide, like, was it just that you decided I don't want to do tablecloths anymore? Or was there something more that prompted this shift?
34:27 Speaker 01 I got bored.
34:28 Dan Pashman? Okay, alright.
34:29 Speaker 01 I get bored every seven years. It's like a seven-year itch, you know?
34:33 Dan Pashman? Right. Because, you know, to close a restaurant for three months and completely revamp, to redecorate, redo the menu, that's no small thing.
34:43 Speaker 01 No.
34:44 Dan Pashman? It costs a lot of money. You're not making any money during those three months.
34:47 Speaker 01 Right.
34:48 Dan Pashman? And it's a risk.
34:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
34:50 Dan Pashman? I would think it must also have been a little scary.
34:53 Speaker 01 Well, to some degree, but I just, to me, it wasn't my style anymore. So, you know, it was like, if I don't want to do it and I don't feel it, I have to let go of it.
35:06 Dan Pashman? So, let's talk a little bit about The Beauty Shop, which I had the pleasure of having lunch at today. It was lovely and funky and cool. And this is a restaurant in an actual former salon.
35:16 Speaker 01 That's right.
35:16 Dan Pashman? Where Priscilla Presley had her hair done.
35:18 Speaker 01 Or beehives.
35:19 Dan Pashman? I love that you still have those plastic, what do you call those?
35:23 Speaker 01 The hair dryers.
35:24 Dan Pashman? Hair dry, oh, they're...
35:27 Dan Pashman? They're just hair dryers? I thought they were doing something more than that.
35:31 Speaker 01 Just a hair dryer.
35:32 Dan Pashman? These are the things like, you know, do they even still have those devices in hair salons today? I mean, you can tell I don't spend a lot of time in hair salons. They do still use those to dry people's hair?
35:41 Speaker 01 Yep.
35:41 Dan Pashman? It's like this giant plastic cone they put over your head?
35:44 Speaker 01 Yep, some places do still have them.
35:46 Dan Pashman? I air dry, I don't know. So, anyway, you still have those in place. So, I was sitting in a hairdresser chair.
35:55 Speaker 01 Right.
35:56 Dan Pashman? With the hairdryer cone thing over my, and not literally on my head, but like up above.
36:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:01 Dan Pashman? Which I loved, like, I thought you did a great job of keeping just the right elements from the original space.
36:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:08 Dan Pashman? And then adding modern touches, and they blended together in a way that, and you have these tucked-in booths back behind the hair dryers.
36:14 Speaker 01 And they were all there. I mean, literally, all those glass booths, everything was there.
36:18 Dan Pashman? What were those used for?
36:20 Speaker 01 That was where they would get their hair done. Washed and curled and coiffed and then, you know, yeah.
36:26 Dan Pashman? But it also has like, all these different materials coming together in a very eclectic way. And then the menu also, I mean, you've got carnitas, you've got mussels and frites, a jerk fish club sandwich. And something called adult Lunchables.
36:42 Speaker 01 Oh, that's good.
36:44 Dan Pashman? What's adult Lunchables?
36:45 Speaker 01 Well, actually, I've never been into pimento cheese because I didn't grow up eating it.
36:49 Dan Pashman? Okay.
36:49 Speaker 01 I never knew what it was, sort of like the catfish.
36:51 Dan Pashman? Right.
36:52 Speaker 01 It's like, what's that? That's pimento cheese. What the hell, Karen? And so, and, but I fry the saltines and put the, but I put a finocchio, a fennel salami, put the pimento cheese on there and then put the fennel salami, a little bit of arugula vinaigrette. It's yummy.
37:07 Dan Pashman? Ooh.
37:08 Speaker 01 It's good.
37:09 Dan Pashman? Does it come preassembled?
37:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, so there's four on a plate. We call them adult Lunchables.
37:13 Dan Pashman? It sounds phenomenally delicious, but I feel like for it to be Lunchables, it should come separately and people should assemble it themselves.
37:19 Speaker 01 Well, they're not in a plastic container.
37:23 Dan Pashman? But they could be, Karen.
37:24 Speaker 01 They could be, yeah.
37:25 Dan Pashman? This seems like a missed opportunity. This seems like a Karen carrier home run right here.
37:28 Speaker 01 That's a good thing.
37:29 Dan Pashman? At least get like a sectioned off tray.
37:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's a good.
37:32 Dan Pashman? Like a lunch, like one of those, um, the plate with the dividers.
37:35 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, right.
37:36 Dan Pashman? And, and put each thing in a separate area and let people assemble them.
37:39 Speaker 01 They're prettier when we assemble them.
37:41 Dan Pashman? That's probably true.
37:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's prettier.
37:42 Dan Pashman? Yeah. All right. When you look at a space for a restaurant.
37:46 Speaker 01 Yep.
37:47 Dan Pashman? What are you looking for?
37:48 Speaker 01 I have to feel it. I have to walk in and feel it. It's a weird thing. I don't, it's hard to explain that to someone. And so, it's interesting. I wanted to open a place in a neighborhood instead of, because I was downtown and we lived in the house downtown, so everything was downtown. And then I was like, well, I'm going to go to Midtown. You know, a lot of people who work with me wanted to invest in a place. And, and so I started looking and Cooper Young, and I saw this place.
38:17 Dan Pashman? That's a cool, cool neighborhood of Memphis where, uh, where.
38:20 Speaker 01 That's where the beauty shop is, yeah. And so, there was this for rent sign and it was weird. It was pouring down rain and the door was cracked open and, and I went in and I'd never been in there. Apparently it was a hair salon called Hollywood Designs that a friend of mine, Robert Tucker, had in the eighties, but I was in New York, so I didn't know anything about it. But it, yes, it had been the old Atkins Beauty Salon. It was a barber shop up front and a beauty salon in the back. And when I walked in and I walked around this wall and saw what was in the back with the hair dryers, I just said, screw it, I'm taking it. It was that cool. I couldn't even believe it because I saw it. I saw the, you know, the booths, basically the glass booths where I could seat people
39:04 Speaker 01 for dining, that people could eat with the hair dryers. It was just perfect. But I had to have more room for my kitchen. That's why I took over. There was a gallery next door and I rented that too. So when I first opened The Beauty Shop, I had The Beauty Shop general store next door. And we sold old Vespas and prepared foods for my catering business to go. And then-
39:24 Dan Pashman? Wait, did you just say you sold old Vespas and prepared foods?
39:28 Speaker 01 Uh huh, yeah. Oh yeah, and we had Denstil's chocolates, assorted cheeses. We had Jaredon's Italian shoes for men and women, Amy Down's hats. It was crazy in there, but you know, it was way ahead of its time.
39:42 Dan Pashman? It may still be ahead of its time. I'm not sure.
39:46 Dan Pashman? I'm not sure if we've hit the prepared foods and Vespa-
39:49 Speaker 01 The Vespas were cool. They were in the window. It was very cool.
39:54 Dan Pashman? But I feel like that's a great example of your art background.
39:58 Speaker 01 It is. And that was the only restaurant I decided to use no color in. So Automatic Slims was extremely colorful. Everything, every surface. Beauty Shop's not. To me, I wanted the food to be the color. And that's how I changed that. For me, it's very awkward because it's very white and beige and toned down. But I thought that would be a good switch up.
40:24 Dan Pashman? You said that composing a plate of food is in some ways like painting.
40:29 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
40:30 Dan Pashman? Is there a specific example? Like, is there one dish that you've created that comes to mind that kind of illustrates that?
40:34 Speaker 01 Well, there's quite a few. I do believe that a lot of people, you know, even in catering, they crowd a lot of platters. They put all this food on one thing. They're carting it out to a table. It's ugly. You know, to me, everything needs to breathe. You know, you need almost like a border around everything so that you can really see the food and the way it's laid out and the way it works within each other, you know? How does that crispy duck sit on top of that almond scordalia? And how does that muddled blackberry come down into it? And where is that a lote corn gonna sit? How is it gonna sit there?
41:10 Dan Pashman? And you're obviously not in the kitchen cooking every meal. So you're training the-
41:13 Speaker 01 That's right.
41:13 Dan Pashman? The chefs, not only on how to cook the food, but precisely how to arrange it on the plate.
41:17 Speaker 01 Absolutely. And some of them really get it and they pick up on it really quick. But if I do see it doesn't look right, I'll go back to talk to the kitchen, yeah.
41:26 Dan Pashman? But it does seem, Karen, as I think about- Both your approach to your career, the way that you design restaurants, the way that you design menus, the way that you bring together all these different influences. It seems like you don't want things to be too calm. Like, you like a little bit of chaos.
41:47 Speaker 01 I like chaos, yeah.
41:49 Dan Pashman? What do you like about it?
41:50 Speaker 01 I just think that's the way I grew up. I think I grew up in a chaotic situation. Everything was wild. You know, the time was crazy, you know? I think in the 60s, you know, we changed a lot of things that our parents were like, "What is happening?" So I think, you know, I was very rebellious, you know? I was raised in a very orthodox Jewish home. I married a non-Jewish guy, you know? I rebelled against everything. But I believe that, yes, you're born into your family, but I also believe it's very important to see what else is out there in the family you create, you know? And the things that you learn along the way.
42:33 Speaker 01 And I think that's very important to me.
42:38 Dan Pashman? Well, I really enjoyed our conversation. Ladies and gentlemen, Karen Blockman Carrier is the person behind the Molly Fontaine Lounge, the Beauty Shop Restaurant, another roadside attraction catering, a music club called Bar DKDC, and more. Big hand for Karen Blockman Carrier!
42:56 Dan Pashman? And a big hand for all of you. Thank you so much for coming out. Good night.
43:09 Dan Pashman? I want to add a special thanks to all the folks at the Buckman Performing Arts Center in Memphis for having me. I can't wait to come back. Next week on the show, we continue our month in the South with my road trip across Alabama and Mississippi, where I stop at some of the finest gas station eateries those states have to offer. While you wait for that one, check out those recipe episodes. They're called "Is Your Recipe Lying to You?" and "The Joy of Recipe Writing." As I said, these episodes got a big reaction from you. If you haven't already listened, make sure you check them out. They're in your feed right now. And hey, before we go, I want to shout out two really important people from our team: Colin Anderson, an exec who's been a great advocate for our show, and Nora Ritchie, who was our executive producer and editor for the last couple of years. Thank you, Colin and Nora, for your insights, your enthusiasm, your support.
43:54 Dan Pashman? We're really gonna miss you here. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app, all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sportful. This episode was produced by me, along with managing producer- Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer- Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is- Jared O'Connell. And our intern is-
44:32 Speaker 03 Julia Liu.
44:33 Dan Pashman? Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
44:40 Speaker 04 This is Alison Copeland, hailing from Austin, Texas, but coming to you from London, England, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.
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