Duff Goldman Has Learned To Live With His Fear (Reheat)

When Food Network star Duff Goldman got into baking elaborate cakes, he was just trying to pay the bills while pursuing his real dream of rock stardom. So what happened? This week we talk with the Ace of Cakes host about his deep artistic roots, the risks he took as a teenage graffiti artist, and why he almost gave up on the food industry altogether.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  If you're the kind of person who plans vacations around where you're gonna eat, Scottsdale belongs on your list. And look, whenever I go somewhere, my priority is on eating things that are the specialties of that region, eating things that I can't get at home. So when I'm in that area, I'm looking for the specialties of the region, like authentic southwestern and Native American flavors, modern Mexican cuisine, and as basic as it sounds, homemade, fresh flour tortillas. There's nothing like it, and you can't get them like that in the Northeast. And there is such a farm-to-table culture in Scottsdale, inspired by the Sonoran Desert. Everything is so fresh, the peppers, the spices. It is so vibrant. And Scottsdale's just got a great vibe. It's one of those places where breakfast becomes brunch, happy hour turns into dinner, and every patio

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  has another amazing view. And explore old-town Scottsdale between meals, or relax at a spa after brunch. From award-winning and James Beard-recognized chefs to neighborhood gems and nationally acclaimed restaurants, every meal in Scottsdale tells a story. So come hungry and leave with new favorite restaurants. Start planning your next culinary getaway at experiencescottsdale.com. I grew up on Lando Lake's cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lake's American cheese. And now, Lando Lake's cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lake's cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lake's has plenty of quick

• 1:26Dan Pashman?

  dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:46Dan Pashman?

  Hey, everyone. This week's reheat is my conversation with the chef and TV star Duff Goldman of Ace of Cakes. And what I loved about this conversation is like, obviously, I know Duff from TV. I've seen him do his thing. I know the guy knows how to make a cake. He's got a great personality. I did not know that he was a teenage graffiti artist turned executive pastry chef who also had a stint as a professional musician. And not just like, you know, on open mic night. He and his band opened for Linkin Park. And that was all before Duff became the guy you know on Food Network. But despite all his success, one of the things that struck me in our conversation is that he was really honest about the very real fears he still has about taking risks. By the way, Duff is currently on tour. He's doing a one-man

• 2:28Dan Pashman?

  show called The Tao of Duff. That's happening in cities across North America till November. More information at duff.com. How did he get that URL? Anyway, if there's an episode of The Sporkful you want us to reheat, let us know. Drop me a line at [email protected]. Tell me your first name, location, what episode you want to hear, and why. Thanks so much, and enjoy.

• 2:51Dan Pashman?

  You've said that if you want to be a chef, you have to be obsessed with food. And I even heard you spend quite a lot of time dissecting the practice of taking a single bite out of a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  When you take a bite of the Reese's, first, there's two sort of like tactile things that happen. One, those little ridges kind of poke up into your lip. And then underneath, the chocolate's super thin, and your tongue can actually press into the peanut butter. You get chocolate, chocolate, chocolate, and then you get salty peanut butter. And just that salty mixed with that sweet, it's such a perfect bite. The ratio is perfect. Reese's, I think, are one of the most, like, well-designed candies in the world.

• 3:36Dan Pashman?

  And we're talking about the original low, wide, flat Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, not the more new-fangled, less-good, tall one.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't even know what that is. That doesn't even like, when I'm at 7-Eleven, I can't even see that thing.

• 3:56Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Today, I'm talking with Duff Goldman. He started out as the star of Ace of Cakes on Food Network. Now, he's on Buddy vs. Duff, Duff's Happy Fun Bake Time, and Kids' Baking Championship. He's known for his goofy, childlike enthusiasm, evidenced by the time he told one young competitor to hit him in the face with a pie.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Come here, Jane. See that pie right there? Yeah. Grab that pie. Oh, gosh.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  I signed up for this, Jane. Give it to me right in the face.

• 4:35Dan Pashman?

  Duff's also known for making extravagant, over-the-top cakes. They're almost edible sculptures or art installations. Like the time he made a life-size motorcycle cake, complete with revving engine and fake exhaust coming out of the tailpipe. A lot of detail goes into making these cakes. So maybe I shouldn't be surprised that Duff has even more opinions about Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Like, opening the package of a Reese's used to be a lot more pleasant, now that, like, they use this weird sort of plastic cellophane. It's not as fun.

• 5:04Dan Pashman?

  It used to kind of have like the envelope fold underneath, right?

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it had that. And you could slide your pinky and pop it open. Remember that? You would just sit.

• 5:12Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Right? And then, so, once you get the Reese's out of the package, peeling the paper off without knocking off some of the serrated chocolate, that's the trick, right?

• 5:24Dan Pashman?

  You're talking about the paper cup that it's sitting in.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  It's like peeling a sticker, right? You gotta just get your thumb right on it, peel that paper back. Then, when you grab the paper and you pull it off, and it goes click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, you know, and like, it's not like a smooth, it doesn't just go, it goes, right? And that's a nice little sensation.

• 5:46Dan Pashman?

  It's interesting that you are so focused on the tactile experience of eating a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. I think it's telling that that's something that you are so attuned to, because you come from a long line of artistic people, like, a long line of makers who have made things that you can feel and touch and interact with.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, my great-grandmother was a milliner. She made like ladies' hats back in the 30s when she came to this country. She was also a weaver. She had this huge loom, and she would make all this stuff. And she was a baker. She was a really good baker. She taught me how to make phyllo dough. And then, my grandmother was a silversmith, an enamelsmith, and a photographer. My mom is a, she's a stained glass artist, and she does mosaics. And I was a graffiti artist and a metal sculptor. But, you know, then I moved to cooking, which, you know, I find is one of the most challenging of arts, because with painting,

• 6:50Speaker 01

  for example, right? You paint a picture, people look at it, and you're trying to elicit an emotional response just by what they're looking at. With cooking, you taste it, you smell it, you see it, you touch it. You're so intimately involved with food. And you eat it. You take something and you put it inside of your own body, which is, you know, kind of a weird thought. Like, you don't really think about that too much.

• 7:15Dan Pashman?

  Right. I haven't eaten many paintings, but I would be a different way to interact with art.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%. Wouldn't taste good, right? Water lilies are a little bitter.

• 7:25Dan Pashman?

  Food has to connect with every sense. It has to work in so many different ways.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like, what's gonna taste better? Like, super fried, crunchy, crinkle-cut french fries on a ceramic plate versus a plastic red basket with a piece of wax paper in the bottom of it?

• 7:46Dan Pashman?

  Plastic red basket.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  100%, right? That's just, that's part of the experience.

• 7:50Dan Pashman?

  Duff's been thinking a lot about food since he was a kid. Growing up, he'd hang out in the kitchen while his mom cooked. She'd turn on their little black-and-white kitchen TV, and together, they'd watch the classic food shows of the 70s and 80s, Chef Tell, The Frugal Gourmet, and Julia Child.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  I just thought they were hilarious, right? I was a little kid, and I'm like, these adults are funny and different than all the other adults that I know. All the adults that I know are miserable people, and these guys seem like they're having a pretty good time. Kids love seeing things made and seeing things done. It looks like magic.

• 8:25Dan Pashman?

  When he was 13, Duff found something that combined his artistic roots with his nonstop craving for fun: graffiti. He'd sketch his paintings, then work up the nerve to paint them outside for real, on a cement culvert underneath a street a few miles from his house.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  So I snuck down there one night, and I did like my first piece, and it was terrible. They said, "Duff," and blocked letters, you know? So then, I went back, and I painted over, and they did it again. They did it again. I just, I kept going over and over. My mom was like, "Where, you know, where are you going every day?" I'm like, "Oh, I'm just riding my bike around doing stuff."

• 8:56Dan Pashman?

  So what was not good about it?

• 8:58Speaker 01

  It just wasn't very creative, and it was sloppy. You know, it's like graffiti, just like everything else. I mean, you really have to, you have to practice. And, you know, eventually, I got pretty good at it. And then, I started, like, doing buses and trains and things that I really shouldn't have been painting on.

• 9:18Dan Pashman?

  What did you like about it?

• 9:20Speaker 01

  It was fun to break the law. It was fun to go sneak out, you know? It's fun to, like, be part of this, like, secret club that, like, not a lot of people knew about. And you're making these incredible, beautiful paintings, you know what I mean? Like, you know, really nice stuff, where like, you know, I went down to that culvert, and there was like, all kinds of bad words and, you know, just stupid stuff that was put on the wall. And like, to cover it up with something colorful and beautiful was like, you know, "Oh, yeah, I'm doing, I'm doing a good job. I'm making it better." But it was fun. I mean, I'm not recommending that you go do it. It's incredibly dangerous.

• 9:58Dan Pashman?

  But also kind of fun.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  But it was kind of fun. It was kind of fun. When you're 13, 14 years old, and you, like, jump a 12-foot fence into a train yard and spray paint a train, and you might get chased by the cops, you might get chased by dogs, you might get chased by other graffiti writers. Like, I think one of the things that it did for me was, like, I'm not really scared of much, you know? I don't have a lot of fear. And I think that, like, conquering those fears when you're, when you're that age, it sticks with you. Walking out onto a stage, for example, there's 2,000 people, and I'm gonna, you know, improv two hours of just whatever, you know, would scare a lot of people. Like, I just don't have that

• 10:43Speaker 01

  fear. Like, walk out, I'm like, "All right, let's do this."

• 10:46Dan Pashman?

  You got so into graffiti art that you needed more money for spray paint. You worked at a bagel shop, you got in trouble for making the sandwiches too big. So you got a job at McDonald's.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:58Dan Pashman?

  When you worked in McDonald's, you also got in trouble for putting your own spin on the fries.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yes. I just, listen, I just thought that they needed like another 25 seconds. So, and every time the beeper would go off, I'd turn the alarm off, and I would stand there.

• 11:14Dan Pashman?

  You wanted them to be a little more, a little golden brown, a little crispier.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Tiny bit more. They weren't into it.

• 11:23Dan Pashman?

  You mean this multinational, multi-billion dollar, global conglomerate that may be best known of all things for the consistency of its french fries, didn't want teenage Duff Goldman to put his own spin on the fries?

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Listen, people make mistakes, right? You know? People make mistakes.

• 11:40Dan Pashman?

  Who was making the mistakes in this scenario? You or McDonald's?

• 11:43Speaker 01

  McDonald's, they knew.

• 11:44Dan Pashman?

  But we see a consistent through line of you had a lot of your own ideas about the way you thought that these restaurants should be operating.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 12:01Dan Pashman?

  After his time at McDonald's, Duff decided he wanted to make more of a go at cooking. He was still in college at the time, so he applied for an apprenticeship at a fine dining restaurant in Baltimore. But his only experience cooking to that point was at McDonald's. So the head chef was skeptical. She decided to start him out on something basic, cornbread and biscuits. Nothing but cornbread and biscuits.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  And I did it every day for two years. And I was like, I was born to do this. This is what I want to do. Absolutely just fell in love with baking.

• 12:30Dan Pashman?

  Why? What was it about baking?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  For me, it was like a little more thoughtful. And it was like less immediate than cooking. Cooking is like a fast, you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, you know? Like when you're cooking on the line.

• 12:46Dan Pashman?

  Right. You're throwing stuff in a pan over the fire and it's done in a few minutes.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know? And I love like, by the way, I love to cook, right? I love to cook and I'm good at it. But for like baking, the thing that really kind of got me was it was a little more cerebral. You know, I was a philosophy major, so I'm, I like to think and overthink and analyze and over. But I'm Jewish, so you know, I just obsess about everything and I'm constantly like, you know, what's going on here? What's going on? You know what I mean? I'm just, I'm a neurotic Jew and I love baking because there's so many things to be neurotic about.

• 13:23Dan Pashman?

  You know, it's funny because I'm also a neurotic Jew and I think I dislike baking for the same reason. Because, you know, I like the immediacy of like, when you're cooking in a pan, the heat and it's all going to be done soon and it makes it impossible to overthink it. I overthink other things.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was going to say, you probably have a good outlet, right? That you overthink, right? Right? There's something else in your life that you get to completely obsess about and just, you know, be, be who you are. And so you're like, I don't want to do that with baking because I have it other places and I need a break, right?

• 13:59Dan Pashman?

  Right. No, that's right. Like I obsess about like the podcast or my job or like life and work things, you know? So for me, cooking is like meditation. It's like, it's like the escape from that. So soon after spending two years making cornbread, you end up at the French Laundry, one of the preeminent fine dining destinations in the world. It's famous for great food, but also famous for being a very intense place to work.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's intense. It was intense.

• 14:31Dan Pashman?

  I would imagine they don't want you to tweak their french fry recipe.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Uh-uh. Nope. And I didn't try. I didn't try. You know, right? You get in there, you just like, you do this exactly how they showed you how to do it. Don't change anything. And even if you don't like the method, just do it until you like it.

• 14:54Dan Pashman?

  And what did you learn from that experience there?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  One thing I learned is that that's, that kind of environment is not a very good fit for me. I mean, you can probably imagine that would be a square peg in a round hole.

• 15:07Dan Pashman?

  In retrospect, it seems obvious, but.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  I'm a goofball. I'm a big, I'm a clown. But I tell you though, it was one of the greatest experiences of my life. It was just incredible. And I think the thing that I loved about it was seeing the pursuit of excellence, right? Seeing people who are really, really trying to make everything perfect and exactly the way that they're envisioning it, you know? And really, like when we were talking about the, the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, same thing. It's like people really thinking about all the little things that go into every bite, you know?

• 15:50Speaker 01

  And seeing that, I think really kind of like, like awakened me just to its existence. It just like understanding that that level of dedication could be there.

• 16:04Dan Pashman?

  I saw a quote where you said that you, you learned the depth of yourself there at French Laundry. Tell me about that.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Well, you learn, you know, you're doing this very, very intense thing, you know? And every plate has to be perfect. It has to be perfect. Your first plate of the night, you're like, all right, let's do this, you know? And you make your first plate and it goes out and you're like, awesome. Making your last plate with that same intensity and that same energy, that's where you learn about yourself.

• 16:44Dan Pashman?

  So at the French Laundry, Duff saw what it was like to pursue perfection. He realized he could summon that intensity. But as he said, he also learned that was not the environment for him. After about a year, he decided to leave.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  I was in a dark place. I had decided a long time ago, like I want to be a chef. This is what I want to do. And I get a job at the French Laundry, which for me was like.

• 17:09Dan Pashman?

  It's like getting into Harvard.

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like this is the best restaurant in the world. Why would I ever want to leave? Like I made it. I made it. I'm doing it. And I'm there and I was like, I, I don't think I can do this. I was having an existential crisis, like, like this thing that I thought that I loved, if this was the pinnacle of what it is, I don't want to be there. It's like, well, then now what?

• 17:38Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, how did Duff go from existential crisis to food TV stardom? He'll tell us. Stick around.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Hope you're hungry because it's time for some ads.

• 17:56Dan Pashman?

  If you're the kind of person who plans vacations around where you're going to eat, Scottsdale belongs on your list. And look, whenever I go somewhere, my priority is on eating things that are the specialties of that region, eating things that I can't get at home. So when I'm in that area, I'm looking for the specialties of the region, like authentic southwestern and Native American flavors, modern Mexican cuisine, and as basic as it sounds, homemade, fresh flour tortillas. There's nothing like it and you can't get them like that in the Northeast. And there is such a farm to table culture in Scottsdale, inspired by the Sonoran Desert. Everything is so fresh, the peppers, the spices, it is so vibrant. And Scottsdale's just got a great vibe. It's one of those places where breakfast becomes brunch, happy hour turns into dinner and every patio has another amazing view.

• 18:41Dan Pashman?

  And explore old town Scottsdale between meals or relax at a spa after brunch. From award-winning and James Beard-recognized chefs to neighborhood gems and nationally acclaimed restaurants, every meal in Scottsdale tells a story. So come hungry and leave with new favorite restaurants. Start planning your next culinary getaway at experiencescottsdale.com. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking.

• 19:25Dan Pashman?

  Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners. Last year, right around this time, I got a new jacket from Quince, a lightweight fall jacket. And it has turned into my favorite jacket. And this is why you need a lightweight jacket and probably a new one because it's time to freshen up your look. You need a lightweight jacket from Quince because the beauty of a lightweight jacket is you can wear in the early fall, you can wear it in the early spring, but also it goes over a sweater, over a sweatshirt. And then suddenly your lightweight jacket is a great accessory for pretty much the whole winter. Bottom line, when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long.

• 20:07Dan Pashman?

  They make elevated everyday essentials using premium materials and designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted and made to be worn again and again. So find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was this pork full. It's the best way to support the show.

• 20:40Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. Want to watch me walking my dog while ranting about some food-related issue that's on my mind? Want to see what I'm cooking? Want to see what I'm eating? The best way to do that is to follow me on Instagram. My kids make occasional appearances. There's a lot of fun to be had. So please follow me on Instagram @thesporful. Again, that's @thesporful. Thanks.

• 21:02Dan Pashman?

  Okay, back to Food Network star Duff Goldman. After the French Laundry, Duff was at a loss. He says he felt broken. He packed up and moved out to Colorado, crashed on a friend's couch, did a lot of snowboarding. Pretty soon, he ran out of money. And it just so happened that a local hotel was looking for a pastry chef.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  And I was like, man, I've never worked in a hotel, first of all, and I do not want to be the pastry chef of a hotel. I am burnt. I'm done. I'm a, you know, I'm a quivering hunk of meat. But I went in and I was like, maybe I can, I can convince this guy to just like, let me bake bread, right? Because baking bread is one of, it's one of my favorite things to do. And if I could just go to the hotel and get there at like, 2:00 in the morning and bake all the bread and leave before anybody else comes in, or you have to deal with anybody else, just go in, bake bread, it'd be the perfect existence.

• 21:52Dan Pashman?

  But the head chef, Jesse Lapatan, talked Duff into baking much more than bread. Duff took the job as the hotel's pastry chef, and he and Jesse got close.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  He just kind of like took me under his wing and he taught me how to do it and he fixed me. He kind of showed me that it's fun again. We had a great team there and everybody was, you know, really fun and supportive and cool. And we were always like playing jokes on each other. And he like showed me the joy again.

• 22:19Dan Pashman?

  Duff got back to chasing that joy. He moved back to Baltimore and was working as a personal chef. But at this point, getting a Food Network show hadn't even crossed his mind, because he was busy pursuing a completely different dream: being a rock star. He plays bass and drums. He and his buddies formed a band, and they were doing well. They played bigger venues, opened for some pretty well-known groups, Clutch, Linkin Park. But being a personal chef wasn't compatible with the life of a rocker.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  So I quit that job, and I started making cakes in my apartment so I could pay the rent. But then if I was the one making the cakes, I could decide when not to work. And so that way I could be on tour, or make a record, or, you know, do the things I needed to do to be in a band.

• 23:01Dan Pashman?

  That cake shop Duff was running out of his apartment would become Charm City Cakes, the bakery where Ace of Cakes, the Food Network show that made him famous, would eventually be set. Back in those early days, Charm City Cakes was a very different place. Duff hired some of the guys in his band to work there, and some friends from the local art school. He describes it as a motley crew of eccentric weirdos making increasingly eccentric cakes. And pretty soon, they came up with another eccentric idea. Let's do a live cooking show onstage. And unlike Duff's later work, let's make it not at all family-friendly. He called it FU Let's Bake, but not the PG way I'm saying it. And at one point, he would strip down to nothing but a cup and have the audience throw raw eggs at him. Beyond that, the whole thing was just weird.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  I would like make a cake, the lights would go out, the lights would come back on, there'd be a team of ninjas, and I have to like fight the ninjas while I was like making little flowers. Or like, I would make souffle, you know, for everybody, and I would make the entire place be super quiet because souffles were in the oven and everybody had to whisper, right? And like, so, you know, like, really like fun, but also like, not family-friendly comedy.

• 24:13Dan Pashman?

  FU Let's Bake may not have been ready for prime time, but it showed that Duff had major star potential. His brother was a TV producer and helped him shop around a demo reel. Eventually, they landed the Food Network show Ace of Cakes, which debuted in 2006. It showed Duff and his friends at work at Charm City Cakes, creating ever bigger, crazier, more complex cakes.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  This week, we are making a working replica of a brand-new roller coaster called...

• 24:40Dan Pashman?

  With Duff, a cake that just sits there is never enough.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  We need a customizable, working roller coaster model.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  I want the roller coaster to actually go through the cake. All right, go team.

• 24:55Dan Pashman?

  Even though he now had a TV show, Duff still stuck to that DIY lifestyle. He would drive halfway across the country to deliver a cake himself, sleeping in his car along the way, using his engine to heat up canned foods for snacks. Duff often decorated his cakes using edible spray paint, so all that graffiti work came in handy. And it prepared him for working on a large canvas, whether it's a highway overpass or a cake model of Hogwarts. Duff was known to bust out blowtorches and power tools in the cake shop. This was the kind of fun he was looking for. Duff became one of the country's best-known cake makers. So I had to take some time in our conversation to debate the finer points of his work. Buttercream or fondant?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  You know?

• 25:35Dan Pashman?

  Wait, so our first question, do you say fondant or fondant?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Come on, man.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  It's fondant.

• 25:43Dan Pashman?

  Fondant?

• 25:43Speaker 01

  It's not fondant, right? That's not how you say it.

• 25:48Dan Pashman?

  All right, okay, fair enough. Fondant. So buttercream versus fondant, which is better and why?

• 25:52Speaker 01

  You know, my friend, those two are not mutually exclusive, right? So the thing about fondant is that I liken it to a banana peel, right? A banana peel looks pretty, it kind of changes colors, they're nice to look at, it keeps the banana from getting beat up and bruised, it keeps it moist, it keeps the banana good. So you bake a cake, you cover it in buttercream, and then you cover it in fondant. The fondant keeps it moist, keeps it together, makes it look cool. Then when it's time to eat it, you peel off the fondant, you eat all the good stuff underneath.

• 26:26Dan Pashman?

  So when you eat a cake covered in fondant, you don't eat the fondant?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  No. It's gross.

• 26:31Dan Pashman?

  What's your ideal ratio of frosting to cake in a bite?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  I'd probably say like,

• 26:41Speaker 01

  three to one cake to frosting.

• 26:45Dan Pashman?

  Okay. I mean, to me, the cake is like a frosting conduit.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Too much frosting's gross, man. Like, too, like, when you get a cupcake and it's got like, three inches of, of, you know, cold buttercream on top, that's just, that's just dumb.

• 26:59Dan Pashman?

  I feel like, as I've gotten older, my ratio has changed. Maybe a couple decades ago, I would have wanted it like 50/50. But now I more want it three parts cake to one part buttercream. But I do put a lot of thought, when you have a multi-layer cake, and then you have the, the backside of the slice that has the exterior frosting. You gotta put a lot of thought into how you sort of carve out your bites, so that you're spreading the frosting evenly and equitably throughout the bites. Do you have a strategy for that?

• 27:29Speaker 01

  What I'll try to do is like, I'll take my fork and get a little bit of the backside, and then take a bite of a thing, and then I almost use the backside like a reservoir, you know?

• 27:42Dan Pashman?

  That's, that's a pro move right there.

• 27:51Dan Pashman?

  In 2011, Ace of Cakes came to an end after 10 seasons. He left the Baltimore location of Charm City Cakes in the hands of his trusted employees, and moved out to LA to open a West Coast branch of the bakery. It was a big leap for him, maybe his biggest yet. Around the time he was getting ready to make this move, he was profiled in the Baltimore Sun newspaper, and he said, quote, "I would be stupid if I wasn't nervous. I'd be stupid if I wasn't scared. But being nervous and scared are great motivators. There's nothing like painting yourself into a corner to motivate yourself to perform." I asked him how it felt to hear that quote today, 10 years later, and he traced that feeling of fear even further back.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  When I quit my job as a personal chef and I woke up the next day, I had no paycheck. And I had enough money in my bank account that I could pay my bills for about two months if I didn't sell a single cake. And I was like, all right, I got two months to start making money. You just don't have a choice. Like, I don't have a choice. I have to succeed.

• 28:51Dan Pashman?

  I understand that kind of, that kind of fear early in your career. But in 2011, at that point, you're a TV star, Charm City Cakes is doing well, you're moving to LA.

• 29:04Dan Pashman?

  So I think that some people would be surprised to hear that you were still scared or nervous about that.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  I'm still terrified of stuff, you know? And, but, but the thing is, and like, we were talking about this earlier, about sort of like jumping those train yards and, you know, being terrified. The thing is, is that you never stop being terrified, because you're still doing stupid stuff, but you learn how to deal with it. You know, I think you, you learn how to operate within, you know, or just in spite of being afraid, or, you know, being scared, or being nervous, being anxious about something. You know, you just, you learn how to do it. I'm always scared of stuff when I walk out, you know, if I have a new show, if I'm, you know, investing in something now, you know what I mean? Like, you know, there's always like scary stuff, and I'm like, if this doesn't go right, I might be working at Chili's any year, you know? Like, it still happens.

• 29:56Dan Pashman?

  See, it's interesting, because I, I'm sure some people would hear that and be like, oh, come on. Like, you, you've reached a level of, I, I don't want to deny, of course, like, you have every right to feel however you feel, and I'm sure that those feelings are real. But then I think it's also to the average person, they would think, oh, but hasn't Duff reached a level of success that like, yeah, the future is unknown, and Ben, there's always risk, but that, you know, you're gonna find your way. And I think it's just interesting to hear you say that there are still things that you're very scared of.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, I've almost gone bankrupt a couple times. You know, running a business is hard. And there was a few times when I was close to bankruptcy, and I was, you know, just didn't know what to do. Didn't know what to do. And that can happen again, you know? I mean, is, it's much less likely, I'd say, today than it was 15 years ago, but it can still happen again. You know, it really could. I think one of the, one of the biggest lessons I got was when I left the French Laundry, there was a good few months of living on the couch, living off of my credit cards, and just not caring

• 31:03Speaker 01

  about much. And I got myself into some crazy debt, crazy credit card debt. And I worked my tail off. I worked six days a week. I lived in a, you know, little apartment, and I just like paid off all that stuff, because it's terrifying, right? When you're getting letters from creditors. And like, that, that whole period scared the bejesus out of me. And so that fear's never left me. It's always there.

• 31:35Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, what desserts does Duff Goldman serve at his wedding? We'll find out. Stick around.

• 31:51Dan Pashman?

  When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food, they also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done, the odors and stains have to be tackled, and I want to feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes, and then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there. And All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself, it lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house, we're very happy with it, and let me tell you, family

• 32:32Dan Pashman?

  of four, two teenagers, we do a lot of laundry, so we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear, All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day. Boars Head brings to the deli the taste of deep fried turkey. Look, whether or not you've had deep fried turkey, I think you can probably understand that it's amazing. But making it is also a massive production. That's why Boars Head now presents the Friar's Turkey Breast. One bite and flavor takes over. Perfectly seasoned, deliciously golden fried. A backyard tradition, available at the deli only from Boars Head.

• 33:14Dan Pashman?

  Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite at your local Boars Head deli. Boars Head, committed to craft since 1905.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  Confidence, it's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations. Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 33:56Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back. Let's return now to my conversation with Duff Goldman. These days, as I said, Duff stars in several Food Network shows, including Kids' Baking Championship. He's kind of known as the food TV host who all the kids love, even though he's usually the one in charge of telling the young contestants which one of them's been eliminated. He and his wife have a one-year-old daughter now, and I wonder how his experience breaking bad news to kids will inform his parenting. Is your wife gonna be like, "Well, Duff, you're gonna tell her that she's grounded. You know how to do it." You know? You're gonna tell her there's no dessert for a week.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  I don't, man, I don't know if I could do it, you know?

• 34:32Dan Pashman?

  It'd be cool if you unveiled your punishments in the style of Kids' Baking Championship eliminations.

• 34:41Dan Pashman?

  Like, very long, dramatic pause. Maybe cut to commercial and then come back, and then, and then reveal what the punishment for the infraction will be.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  And your punishment is, move those rocks from that side of the yard to the other side of the yard.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Good luck, bakers.

• 35:00Dan Pashman?

  Cut to confessional, "My dad's such a jerk."

• 35:06Dan Pashman?

  So Duff is successful, he runs a business, he's settled with his family. To an outsider, it might actually look like the guy who only ever wanted to have fun is all grown up. But he hasn't totally surrendered to adulthood. He still plays music in a band called, bear with me, Foie Gras, although they're thinking of changing it to Bread Zeppelin. He threw a Super Bowl party with a petting zoo. He actually kind of has a thing for petting zoos. He had one at his wedding, too. And speaking of that wedding, as you'd expect, he went all out when it came to his wedding cakes. And yes, that's cakes, plural. He had three. First one, simple, traditional tiered cake. The second one was an underwater scene, more like something you'd see at Charm City Cakes. And the third one?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Was actually made out of meat. The bottom tier was meatloaf. The next tier was meatballs. The next tier was shawarma. And the top tier was scrapple. And then we iced the whole thing in mashed potatoes. We made a bunch of, right? Because when you get, like, when you whip mashed potatoes, you can actually pipe it out like buttercream.

• 36:09Dan Pashman?

  Oh my god.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  And then we made a bunch of roses out of bacon and, like, roasted them, so they, like, came out, like, there were these, like, little crispy bacon roses all over the cake. And then the bridegroom on top were hot dogs. And we made their clothes out of, like, shaved deli meat, like, so we got, like, mortadella and, like, all this stuff, like, made their clothes out of deli meat.

• 36:33Dan Pashman?

  Oh my god.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  And, and then, next to it, we got a chocolate fountain, and we filled it with canned gravy.

• 36:44Dan Pashman?

  I, I mean, I'm just gonna say it. That sounds delicious.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  It was amazing.

• 37:06Dan Pashman?

  That's Duff Goldman, star of Buddy vs. Duff, Kids' Baking Championship, and Duff's Happy Fun Bake Time. He also recently published his first kids cookbook called Super Good Baking for Kids. And Duff will be showing off his cooking skills for the first time on TV in an upcoming new show called Ace of Taste. This show is produced by me, along with senior producer? Emma Morgenstern. And producers?

• 37:27Speaker 04

  Andres O'Hara.

• 37:28Dan Pashman?

  And? Johanna Mayer. Our editor is? Tracy Samuelson. The show is mixed by? Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher. Our executive producers are Peter Clowney and Daisy Rosario. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 37:43Speaker 05

  And I'm Hannah Knox in Estes Park, Colorado, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 38:05Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by? Gianna Palmer. The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer?

• 38:11Speaker 05

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 38:12Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer?

• 38:13Speaker 04

  Andres O'Hara.

• 38:14Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is? Jared O'Connell. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Sirius XM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, if you want to hear new episodes of The Sporkful ad-free, subscribe to Sirius XM Podcast Plus on Apple Podcasts, or visit siriusxm.com/podcastsplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 38:44Speaker 03

  You've never been one to settle. Stand down or stand still. You're a lifelong learner, energized by excellence. There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. You've got competition to outrun, momentum to build on, and your own high standards to meet. Stop now? Not a chance. At Capella University, we help you catch what you're chasing, because you've always had the drive. Now, go earn the degree. Capella University, what can't you do? Visit capella.edu to learn more. Confidence, it's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.