What is Orthorexia? When Wellness Becomes Illness — Plus Thoughts On PTSD, Self-Forgiveness & Running For Peace

We’re back with yet another installment of Ask Me Anything — a twist on my normal format where we answer questions submitted by you, the listener. In this week's installment, Julie and I discuss my recent visit to Beirut to run the marathon and then take two listener questions. First we discuss blogger Jordan Younger's battle with orthorexia and her decision to let go of her vegan identity. Then, in honor of Veteran's Day, we discuss a soldier's struggle with PTSD and the journey to self-forgiveness. Specific topics include: * why go all the way to Beirut to run a marathon? * running for peace in the Middle East * what is orthorexia? * the nexus between eating disorders & trauma * when wellness becomes illness * the prison of identity labels * a veteran's struggle with PTSD * the journey to self-forgiveness * making peace with the self in the wake of violence Thank you to all the veterans out there for your selfless service. This episode is dedicated to those that suffer daily the trauma of that experience. A related podcast on the subject of veteran's issues and PTSD that you might enjoy is my conversation with Jason Hall, the screenwriter of American Sniper – RRP 130: Finding Purpose in Tragedy. The show concludes with Cry, written and performed by Julie — aka SriMati – accompanied by our sons Tyler & Trapper Piatt. Thanks to everyone who submitted inquiries — keep ‘em coming! I sincerely hope you enjoy the conversation. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. What's up, wellness freaks and fanatics? It's Rich Roll, your host, back with another episode of the podcast. I hope that you are enjoying your commute. Maybe you're stuck in traffic. Maybe you're on the treadmill. Maybe you're cooking dinner for your kids. Whatever you're doing, wherever, whenever, whatever, thanks so much for stopping by. I really appreciate you exercising your discernment to tune into this podcast today. I appreciate all of you guys very, very much. Without you guys, the audience, this is nothing. And it's been a crazy, awesome journey, and thanks for taking it with me. We appreciate everybody who has taken a moment to give us a review on iTunes for always

• 1:57Rich Roll?

  using the Amazon banner at richroll.com for all of your Amazon purchases. Thank you so much. Today, we're back with another Ask Me Anything episode. It's been a couple of weeks. How are you doing, Julie? Hi.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Rich Roll, doing well.

• 2:11Rich Roll?

  When was the last time you were on the podcast?

• 2:13Speaker 01

  I think it was in a city called Paris.

• 2:16Rich Roll?

  That's right.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Whenever that was.

• 2:17Rich Roll?

  I know. Since then, I have come home and then gone back and went even one more time zone further east. So.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  And you leave again tomorrow?

• 2:27Rich Roll?

  I'm leaving again tomorrow morning. I've only been home for like a day. We barely had a chance to talk, so here we are.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so hi, it's nice to see you.

• 2:34Rich Roll?

  I actually can tell you about the trip that I just had.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  That's awesome, let's hear it.

• 2:38Rich Roll?

  Before we get into listener questions, I sort of talked a little bit about it in the introduction to the Robin Shetcan episode, so I don't want to go.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  So I should listen to that?

• 2:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you need to listen to that podcast to understand what happened. But, uh, no, I just returned from Beirut, and as I mentioned the other day, it was a really, um, it was an incredible experience. You know, it's a very topsy-turvy, tumultuous place of the world, the Middle East. I would say that in the sort of, you know, pantheon of, of countries throughout the Middle East, peppered throughout the Middle East, it's probably, you know,

• 3:17Speaker 01

  It's not that topsy-turvy.

• 3:18Rich Roll?

  It's on the more, it's on the more stable end of that spectrum, but certainly there is a lot of civil unrest. There's a lot of religious dissonance, there's political upheaval, and, you know, a sort of sense of unease and instability. And yet, at the same time, the people are really beautiful and generous and welcoming. I mean, everybody I met was like, just went to the ends of the earth to make me feel comfortable and to, you know, provide for me. And it was really kind of a beautiful thing.

• 3:50Rich Roll?

  And just participating in the marathon really was a cool experience to be able to partake in something that I think is helping bridge that gap of all the kind of,

• 4:03Rich Roll?

  All the kind of conflict that exists there to bring people together and to create some level of unity, at least for a day. And the ripple effects of that, you know, that sort of emanate out across the city and throughout Lebanon, I think are profound. May El Khalil, who is the founder of the marathon, as I mentioned last week, started it 13 years ago after she was hit by a car out running. She was an avid marathon runner and birthed the marathon as an expression of trying to give back to her community, to her country, something that had meant so much to her now that she wasn't able to do it.

• 4:43Rich Roll?

  And it's really difficult to, you know, start something like a marathon in that part of the world. It's not exactly like they have this robust running community. Every neighborhood has its own sort of little power structure and fiefdom. None of them are crazy about having roads closed and the sort of, you know, political game of trying to be able to get everybody on the same page to pull it off is a major undertaking. They had to change the course like a month ago.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm sure there were a lot more issues that you wouldn't, you wouldn't even know of.

• 5:15Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, there's, I'm sure there's all kinds of backdoor, you know, negotiations and things like that to pull it off and not easy at all.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Obviously, an amazing woman, another amazing woman with amazing heart and spirit and courage. It was beautiful to see what she created.

• 5:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you should have seen her throughout the whole experience, just remembers everyone's name, is just giving everybody hugs. I mean, she's just on the spot, like, the whole time, like, on point, trying to make sure that this thing gets pulled off. And there's a sense of, you know, uneasiness because anything could happen. Like, they're in the middle of this huge garbage crisis that has people demonstrating in the streets, and it has to do with political corruption and privatization of... of the garbage service and you know, price hikes and you know, sort of where that money is going and there's a lot of people that are really upset about it and they had to kind of, you know, rework the route to do an end run around where the protesters are and you know, there's all sorts of things going on and yet nonetheless, it exists as

• 6:15Rich Roll?

  the biggest running event in the Middle East and it's a world-class event. I mean, you should have seen like the start line and the finish line. They had these, you know, it was beautifully set up and there were a lot of people, I think 30,000 people over the course of the weekend, 800 people run the marathon and it was really cool.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  That's awesome. So how'd you do?

• 6:36Rich Roll?

  Everybody's like, "What's your time?"

• 6:38Speaker 01

  You finished?

• 6:38Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Ask the person.

• 6:41Rich Roll?

  "What was your time?" And somebody asked that on Facebook and Mishka commented to that and it says, and he said something like, "I think he had a great time."

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Sounds like something I would say.

• 6:52Rich Roll?

  I know. Well, I'm making a video of the whole experience and I address this directly in the video, but I don't think I ever said anything on the podcast or on social media. But you know, I was hardly trained for a marathon. This opportunity came up kind of relatively last minute and I've been traveling all over the place. I've had a little bit of a knee injury, so I was hardly in marathon condition and I was not there to go out and try to PR or see how fast I could, I could run. I was just there to soak up the experience and enjoy it. So it was a very casual pace. In fact, I thought maybe my knee might fly, you know, sort of flare up at mile eight or something like that and I was worried I was gonna have to pull out. My knee held up quite fine and you know, I just had a fun

• 7:36Rich Roll?

  experience. I ran under four hours, which was my goal. That's all I wanted to do. I just ran with all of these other sort of ambassadors from all these different places and enjoyed conversations with people along the way and met some really incredible people. There's one guy... From Jordan, who had lost his eyesight as a youngster after a botched surgery and was running it with, you know, sort of a guy who was guiding him. There was women from Palestine who were there, running in sort of a political statement of trying to, trying to take a stand for their right to just be able to run and be outside in that part of the world. There

• 8:19Rich Roll?

  was an autistic teenager that was running, who is very inspiring. There was this event, like, two nights before the marathon, where myself and a bunch of other people who had interesting stories got to go on stage and kind of relate their experience. And I got to meet some really cool people. There was, there was a guy from Egypt who's trying to follow the model of what May created in Lebanon and create a marathon in Egypt. And he was telling me all these stories about how difficult it is there, because there's no real running community there. He's trying to, you know, ignite that, that flame and, and try to create something there. But, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a part of the world that's new to the idea of fitness and running as an expression, almost a political statement, you know, a

• 9:03Rich Roll?

  statement for, for peace and unity. So, in that sense, you know, I didn't go to like, run a marathon for the purpose of just running a marathon. I went there to learn something about that part of the world, to expand my horizons, and participate in, in this sort of, you know, political movement of trying to bridge that gap of political differences and religious differences, to do something that everybody can agree on, and then come back to the United States and help share that story. So, that's really what it was all about. It wasn't about how fast I was gonna run the marathon.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Well, and I feel like you've, you've definitely felt in your heart connected to this particular marathon, and also to May. And, you know, when you were having problems with your knee, I tried to give you, you know, sort of the voice of reason, and sort of propose to you that maybe you should not go. So I did sort of propose those type of ideas, and you were having none of them.

• 9:59Rich Roll?

  No, I was having none of that.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  You actually ran out the door with your suitcase. You were so excited to go. So, I really, yeah, I feel like you- You know, there's something about that part of the world which is kind of interesting and I think there may be some deeper karmic connection with you because for some reason you keep returning there and like I said, I tried to get you to consider possibly cancelling and not going just due to our schedule and everything else and you really wanted to. So I'm glad you went and I'm looking forward to seeing the video, very looking forward to it.

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  Thank you. Yeah, it is weird that I keep getting kind of summoned back to the Middle East. I think that's been my fourth trip in the last two years or something and I don't know what that's about, but it is a privilege to be able to travel to places that most people don't get to go and to see really what it's like, feet on the ground. Because I think, you know, most people, you know, what do we really know about Beirut or Lebanon? You know, we know there was a civil war from 1975 to 1990. We know there's been a lot of strife that dates back hundreds and thousands of years. We know that it was once the Paris of the Middle East. And then most people, when I mention I'm going to Beirut, they're like, wow, you know, isn't that dangerous? And that's kind of where the conversation ends. Most people don't know anything about it.

• 11:14Rich Roll?

  And I think it's, look, when you have an opportunity to travel to a place like that, I almost feel like a responsibility to broaden, you know, my knowledge base about, you know, how people live in different parts of the world and how complicated it is and what their challenges are. And, you know, I love to tra- I mean, I'm ready for a break from travel because I've been traveling like crazy, but, you know, it is amazing that, you know, literally like less, you know, about 48 hours ago, I was about as far away from here as you could possibly get. There's something really magical and special about that. And so I love the travel. I'm a little worn down though, right now.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Well, you're leaving tomorrow, so you better perk up.

• 11:56Rich Roll?

  So tomorrow I go to, I'm speaking at Emory University for the Food Equals Medicine Conference. There's a really amazing lineup of speakers there. Then I go to University of Georgia to speak there to the students. Then I'm going to South Bend, Indiana, and from there I'm going to Miami to the Seed Food and Wine Festival. So this is the last, this is the last big trip and then there's a break, which I'm looking forward to.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:21Rich Roll?

  So, anyway, that's the short story. Wasn't so short though.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Wasn't so short.

• 12:25Rich Roll?

  Anyway, but before we get into today's questions, let's take care of a little business, shall we?

• 12:39Rich Roll?

  The first thing I want to talk about is something that just came up in the last day. I got a lot of tweets and messages about it from various people. And it has to do with this woman named Jordan Younger, who was a vegan blogger who recently, I don't know how recently, I don't know exactly when it happened, but she decided that she no longer was going to be vegan and kind of announced this to her many, many followers. And what happened after that is kind of interesting. She talks a lot about something called orthorexia, which is when you become overly obsessed with your healthy eating habits.

• 13:22Rich Roll?

  And I came across this, she was on the Today Show, because I think she's got a book that just came out, talking about it, and there was an article that I printed out here about it. And I thought it would be good to talk about, kind of, what, you know, sort of, what happens within the plant-based vegan movement when somebody decides they no longer, somebody who has a voice in that movement decides they no longer want to do it, or they feel like it was unhealthy for them. And I want to talk about this idea of orthorexia. So, basically, in the case of Jordan, she sort of was on this journey to get healthy, and that kind of morphed into an unhealthy regimen of being very food-restricted.

• 14:06Rich Roll?

  She was, she got to a place where she was only eating 800 calories a day and doing just juice cleanses and exercising compulsively. She'd wasted away to about 101 pounds, her hair was falling out, she had stopped menstruating. And, and, and so she claims that she was suffering from something called, this, this, this thing called orthorexia. And she made a decision, I'm kind of going through this very long article in a not very cohesive way, but essentially, she, she decided that she didn't want to be vegan anymore.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Well, her health, you know, it came, you know, because she had a lot of health issues.

• 14:47Rich Roll?

  Right. And she felt all this pressure to remain vegan, you know, she had all these readers and followers who were kind of living through her experience.

• 14:57Rich Roll?

  And so when she finally announced like, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop doing this and eat differently," she lost all kinds of followers and she got all kinds of hate mail and all that kind of stuff. There was a sort of a backlash against her, I suppose. But I think the real issue here is, is, you know, the distinction or the differentiating line between eating plant-based, you know, striving to be healthy and when that, that kind of journey of wellness tips over into this kind of obsessive disposition where you become completely neurotic about every single thing that you put into your mouth to the point

• 15:40Rich Roll?

  that it becomes very disruptive to just living your life.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you, I mean, you've stepped into something that, that stands for health and expansion and vibrance and vitality and by making the parameters so restrictive and bringing your own neuroses into the equation and issues around food or, you know, deeper issues like deprivation or self-esteem or who knows, you know, what's wrapped up in, in those kind of emotions. But in, in effect, you know, she created her own prison by being so, such a perfectionist in her approach.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  And so I think the, the big issue with the whole discussion is the, are the three letters that make up the word, the ending of the word ism. That vegan has become veganism, which suddenly it is like a religion. So as a, as a yogi and as a spiritual seeker, whenever I see those isms, which are, you know, religions or movements that start to create boundaries, which then separate.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Humans from each other and they are means for fighting and violence and arguing and not conducive to supporting the very altruistic and beautiful qualities that was the point in the beginning of creating that structure.

• 17:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think also that, you know, it goes back to this idea that wellness is much more than, than, you know, what you find on your plate, right? And in the case of this individual, just reading between the lines here, you know, she has deeper issues that transcend the food that she was putting in her mouth. I mean, you know, the, whatever is behind this obsessive nature that led her to, you know, come to this place that created all these, this anxiety around food and, and her kind of, you know, restrictive approach to what she was putting in her mouth, that's an emotional and a mental, you know, sort of disorder that's being driven by something that has nothing to do with, you know, the decision to be vegan or be plant-based.

• 18:02Rich Roll?

  It has to, it's probably rooted in some childhood trauma or something like that because what it is really is an effort to control your environment, right?

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:11Rich Roll?

  Like when you, in the same sense that anorexia or bulimia are a response to, you know, a similar sort of, you know, either trauma or lack of self-esteem or chaotic, you know, household upbringing, you know, family environment, this is, this is really a related sort of condition. And, you know, I get, I get sort of, not dismayed, but like, I have issues with people linking veganism to orthorexia in the sense that, that they're, they're innately connected. I think maybe, you know, a vegan diet or a plant-based diet could be a place that somebody who is already prone to that condition of orthorexia, becoming obsessive about their

• 18:54Rich Roll?

  food choices and, and overly restrictive because it does require removing certain things from your diet. So it becomes a self-selecting group. Like I can see why somebody who is orthorexic or has That capacity to go in that direction would move towards a vegan diet or a raw diet or something like that. Because that's a very, it's a controlled environment in which to kind of let that condition flourish and grow. But just being plant-based by its very nature is not orthorexic in its own regard.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  No, and I think, I mean, that's one of the reasons that, you know, I live my plant-based lifestyle in a very spontaneous and very free way. I've always said I don't like putting labels or rules on myself because I don't want to create my own prison, my own hardness, my own violence against myself and against other people. So, that's why, you know, in what we share through the cookbook we created through the Plant Bower Way is that, you know, everybody is in their own time, in their own step in the process, and each being has to be respected for who they are and where they are on the journey. And so, it's not black and white, and it's not a world of absolutes.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  And when you enter into that state of perfectionism, you're squeezing, you're squeezing the energetic field so tightly that there's no room for unexpected beauty to come in, or miracles to come in, or an expanded sense of being. So, you know, she is absolutely entitled to have her own experience through food and through her own unique journey, which she is experiencing. And she is entitled, you know, to experience that in her own way. And so, there's nothing wrong with what she's experienced. You know, her experience is her experience. This is all part of her path.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  And hopefully, she's learning things about herself as we all learn things about ourself on the way. So, you know, again, I think it's unique, and I think we, you know, we talk about with eating styles and in your kitchen, if you've brought violence into your kitchen and this eating is constricting you, then maybe you need to loosen up a little bit. You know, at the same time, you know, I don't think that... You know, then this is now, you know, a license to not use your discernment and not make healthy choices, you know, so it's a balance.

• 21:31Rich Roll?

  Right, I think that when you're talking about that violence, in the case of someone like Jordan, it's violence against the self, right?

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 21:38Rich Roll?

  Because when that enthusiasm for being healthy tips into this fanaticism, or this overly compulsive obsessive disorder, that's a violent act against the self.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:47Rich Roll?

  Right, and what began with a journey of sort of, you know, trying to flourish, turns into, you know, essentially a, an emotional or a mental disorder, that is, you know, certainly not, you know, the definition of wellness. That's not like living healthy and free, that's living imprisoned.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:04Rich Roll?

  And my concern is that people will look at this story, and the conclusion that they'll draw is that eating a plant-based diet, or, you know, living a vegan lifestyle is by its very virtue, you know, unhealthy and fanatical. And, you know, that's not our experience with it, and, you know, although we're passionate about this way of living and eating, it doesn't carry into that kind of fanatical obsessive quality where, you know, you're measuring everything and you're, you know, sort of creating disruption everywhere you go. I mean, there's one story, there's one sort of little anecdote that this, that this woman, Jordan, relates where she goes to a restaurant and she orders something vegan and it comes back and it's not entirely vegan, and she throws a tantrum, right?

• 22:46Rich Roll?

  So, if you're throwing a tantrum in a restaurant because your order isn't right or perfect, then that's, you know, evidence of, of, you know, something beneath the surface that needs to get looked at. And I think in the case of, of this person, you know, if she felt the need to, you know, let go of being so restrictive and not being vegan, I mean, she does say she eats predominantly a plant-based diet still, but, you know, she allows herself to eat other things, and whatever, if that's part of her, you know, curative path towards addressing this, you know, underlying obsessiveness and fanaticism, that's great, but I think that, um...

• 23:22Rich Roll?

  That the real work for her most likely lies in addressing the underlying emotional conditions that led her to that place in the first place. The cure is not in changing the plate. The cure is in getting to the root cause of what, you know, made her feel so, um, that the feel the need to be so controlling.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's like, and that is, you know, that is the work of every life and that is the challenge for every single human being, you know, it's turning the mirror back on ourselves and looking at the deeper origins of our actions and our behaviors and why we're in the experience at all to begin with. So, you know, it's, again, it's like this whole, you know, jumping on a movement in one way or another with an absolute perspective of how things go, um, I just don't think is realistic. I don't think it's real life in my experience. So, you know, we advocate eating lots of colors of the rainbow, eating non-processed, organic, healthy, plant-based meals, adding more and more of these kind of foods into

• 24:25Speaker 01

  your diet, eating closer to nature. And again, many varieties, so you're getting a wide expanse of nutrients. And, you know, again, above all, exercising compassion and non-judgment and unconditional love and acceptance for the life you're living right now, for where you are right now in your life, and for others as they make their way through their own journey. So, she deserves respect and, you know, to be honored through her own process. She is, you know, an emanation of a divine force, as is every single being, and it doesn't have to be a fight for any isms.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  We can simply let go of the ism and connect and, you know, extend our hearts and our understanding to each other.

• 25:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, somebody who talks about this issue quite well is Jackson Foster.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  I love, I'm drinking tea out of Jackson Foster's, you know, he, he's a ceramicist, an artist, and he threw a teapot for me and also a bowl. And he's a lovely artist and a lovely young man.

• 25:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's quite a teapot that he makes.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  It's really good. He's actually really great.

• 25:41Rich Roll?

  But anyway, he's had, he's had, he in his past has had a similar struggle. Whether it's anorexia or orthorexia or whatever kind of diagnostic label you want to put on it. That has been kind of an interwoven aspect of his journey through eating plant-based and vegan. And he shares pretty openly about it. So for people that are interested in, in maybe hearing a different perspective on that condition, you can check him out. He has his own podcast, The Plantryotic Podcast, and he, he blogs on Facebook and all that.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  And Instagram as well. Beautiful Instagram.

• 26:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I can't remember what episode number he was on the show, but it was a while ago and he was fantastic.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was also on his show. And you've been on his, have you been on his show?

• 26:22Rich Roll?

  Yes, I was on his show. And, you know, on the, on that, I think it's worth kind of exploring a little bit further in our own experience of trying to manage, you know, being healthy, eating plant-based, but not falling prey to being overly obsessive and fanatical about it. So one of the questions that always comes up is, you know, how do you do it when you travel? You know, so I just went to a crazy part of the world.

• 26:48Rich Roll?

  And, you know, it'd be very easy to get really uptight, like, how am I going to eat there? Where am I going to get my food? And, you know, is it going to be okay? And kind of like obsess about that, create all this anxiety around it. But I've just learned through experience, like, I just don't worry about it. Like, I try to bring stuff on the plane to make sure I can take care of myself. And in the case of this most recent trip, I flew American Airlines and at, at, at the Los, at LAX, Los Angeles Airport, in the American Airlines terminal, there's a restaurant called Real Food Daily, which is one of the best plant-based restaurants in Los Angeles. So that's one reason to be allegiance to American Airlines, in my opinion.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  That's not usual.

• 27:26Rich Roll?

  Because I know before I get on the plane, I can eat a really tasty plant-based meal, drink a green smoothie, and then take some stuff to go for the airplane ride. So I don't have to worry about that. And then when you're going to a foreign country and it's all new and foreign to you and you don't know what you're gonna do, you know, in my case, like, I've just learned to, I just let it go. Like, I, I try to plan a little bit ahead of time, but I just trust that I'm gonna find my way when I get there, that I will be guided. And that doesn't mean that it's gonna be perfect. Like, I got there very late at night, the first night, um, and, you know, everybody was asleep, but thank God, room service was open in the hotel that I was staying at. And I'm not gonna get, you know, a Julie Piatt creation from the Plant Power Way.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  No, you're not. You're actually not, no.

• 28:11Rich Roll?

  So I was able to get, like, penne, you know, with tomato sauce, with, you know, wheat-based pasta. It's not ideal.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Not ideal.

• 28:18Rich Roll?

  You know, it's not ideal, but, you know what? That's gonna have to make do for tonight, and I'm okay with that. Like, I'm not gonna get totally freaked out about it. It doesn't mean that I'm gonna order a steak or eat a cheeseburger, but I'm gonna do the best that I can under the circumstances that I've been given. And I think, and I'm at peace with that. You know what I mean? Like, oh, it wasn't gluten-free, so what am I gonna do? Like, freak out? No, I'm not gonna do that. You know, it's like, I'm living my life. And a life is so much more than, you know, sort of the macronutrients and micronutrients and the proportion of those on your plate. And it's important to be, um, conscious about that and to strive to always do your best, but you're not always gonna get it the way that you want it. And if you're holding on too tightly to that and trying to overly

• 29:01Rich Roll?

  control that, you're gonna make yourself very unhappy.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:05Rich Roll?

  And that's gonna, you know, sort of, obviously, that affects your emotional and mental and spiritual state, and that's gonna affect you physically, right? So that's, that's undermining the overall wellness equation.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  It's true. It's true. And, you know, we always say, you know, stay in tune with your own feelings, with your, you know, trust your instincts, trust how you feel. And, you know, as you go on this journey of, uh, you know, refining your health, refining your diet, refining your meditation, you know, um, enhancing your connection to something beyond the body. All of these are subtle levels of refinement and we transform and change. You know, there's a lot of transformation that happens in a human life. So you can't hang on to, you know, a diet as the ultimate end all of every single thing in life. You know, life is complex. There's many, many, many other areas. And I trust that if you're doing the spiritual work and you're connecting at a very deep level

• 30:02Speaker 01

  to your heart and to that which is beyond this entire physical play, you will spontaneously be guided to make the decisions that are in the highest divine alignment for your authentic self. And that in turn spreads out. It's a ripple effect. So that will affect everything in creation in a higher vibratory way. So again, it's like trust yourself, know yourself, cultivate these expressions, meditate, and you know, when you're eating, feel the connection with nature and listen to your body. Eat many, many varieties of different kinds of plant-based foods. And you know, I've often said on the podcast, if I woke up tomorrow and something was telling

• 30:45Speaker 01

  me that I needed to eat a piece of meat, I would find a wild hunted piece of meat, say a prayer over it, and I would eat it. If, if my body really required it for, you know, some purpose. That has not happened. I don't expect that to happen because I'm very energetically sensitive to, to the violence that's, that's inherent in any meat that's been harvested. But like I said, I caution myself against making any rules or any sweeping statements about, you know, my behavior, you know, in, in a fanatical way or in a, in a, you know,

• 31:28Speaker 01

  statement of, of a static truth that will be a certain way for all time.

• 31:34Rich Roll?

  Or sweeping statements or judgments about other people like, you know, in terms of in terms of, you know, whatever backlash kind of came at this woman, Jordan, you know, I don't participate in that and I don't support that, you know, for anybody who wants to sit around and stand in judgment of other people and their choices about how they want to live their life, you know, turn that, you know, telescope around and put it on yourself and just worry about what you're doing and stop worrying about what other people are doing.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Don't throw stones if you have a glass house.

• 32:05Rich Roll?

  And it's a weird, it's, you know, it's a weird thing in this age of the internet where, you know, we have very little, almost no privacy and, you know, everything is sort of transparent and we've made this lifestyle decision to, you know, kind of live that way and live transparently. It's a very vulnerable feeling where you're, you're exposed and open to, you know, other people's judgments and ideas about what you should or should not do and, you know, and, and it's, you know, for the most part, we're on the receiving end of just an unbelievable amount of support.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  So much love and sweetness from everybody. It just blows, blows me away so much.

• 32:46Rich Roll?

  But when you get the occasional person who, who wants to, you know, tell you you're doing it all wrong, it's just like, you know, why don't you worry about what you're doing?

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Follow someone else.

• 32:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Don't listen.

• 32:58Rich Roll?

  I'm open to like constructive criticism. I'm not, you know, afraid of that or anything like that. But when you get somebody and you know they're just, it's really about them more than it is about you, you know, I try to address that with compassion and say, well, maybe you should, you know, why don't you think about, you know, a mindfulness practice or, you know, whatever. Like, I think the more that we can just focus on being the best versions of ourselves and, and we're kind of engaged deeply in that, the less important it is what other people are doing or not doing.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also just the humility of understanding that we're all imperfectly human, you know, and there's, there's great beauty in that. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's like to, to pretend or be holding up some, you know, some facade or some, you know, image that, you know, that you never make a mistake or you, you know, nothing ever goes wrong in your life or you're never forced to. You know, maybe make a lesser choice than what you would like. I mean, it's just, it's not real. It's not compassionate. And it's just, uh, it's, I, I think it's not productive ultimately.

• 34:07Rich Roll?

  Let's go to a different question. Um, I'm going to keep this guy anonymous. Uh, but he wrote a very interesting email. Uh, and it goes like this. Uh, "I am a retired US soldier living in Europe that is struggling from PTSD from five combat tours in Iraq. I listened to your podcast. I read your book. I also use cycling and running as a processing means to digest the things I had to do in combat. It's a great help. After the army, I became a Hindu monk and thought better to help others as I am a hopeless cause. But now years later, I am still struggling with how to forgive myself and move on from the past. The idea of the actions in combat doesn't reflect who I am is foreign to me.

• 34:50Rich Roll?

  And even after years of treatment, hospitalizations, suicide attempts, it is an issue that is still a daily struggle for me. Um, I was wondering if you had any advice you could throw my way. I don't want to live in the past forever. And the idea of just forgetting isn't working because it constantly comes in my brain." So this is heavy, man. I mean, this guy has clearly undergone a lot, has been in situations, you know, most people can't imagine or fathom. Um, and has had to perpetrate acts that haunt him, you know, that haunt his consciousness. And he's having issues moving on.

• 35:28Rich Roll?

  And, uh, it sounds like whatever he's been advised to do isn't really connecting with him and isn't working. And that's got to be, you know, this is another, this is another prison. You know, it's a relate, it's a similar question in that, you know, it's a, it's a person who has, who has, uh, done things that have erected walls around how to move forward and live, live their life more freely. So this one's really, I think you can go deep into, uh, the spiritual aspects of, of, you know, how to advise someone like this to be able to, um, begin the process of, of unraveling, uh, that,

• 36:12Rich Roll?

  those scars and that damage to be able to.

• 36:17Rich Roll?

  To, you know, live. And I think it, I think it, it has to begin with the journey towards self forgiveness.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, I just want to say, um, thank you for sending this, this message. Um, thank you for, uh, sharing your heart and being so courageous. And I want to tell you that I'm extending extreme love and compassion to you in this moment. I wanted to, um, give you that message and extend that respect and that recognition to you. Because, uh, you do matter and you are an emanation of a divine force.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  And, um, it takes a lot of courage and a lot of heart, um, to have, uh, agreed to experience what you have in your human life and also to reach out with such vulnerability and, um, and honesty, you know, in the face of something that's very difficult. So, um, I'm feeling your heart deeply and, uh, and thank you for, for writing.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  I would say also, I agree, um, I believe the answer is within self forgiveness and within going deeper within, um, to connect with, uh, a greater purpose. Um, and even more so to explore your role in this, um, purpose of humanity. Um, and I, I say purpose of humanity, but it's sort of like, um, a, a condition of war on this planet, uh, that has plagued generations of men, uh, and some women, uh, for thousands and thousands of years.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Um, and so you are expressing an experience in a life condition that is superimposed on, you know, millions and millions of individuals, um, really.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Against their will. I don't think that anyone would, you know, I guess there are people that would volunteer to go to war, but what I'm saying is I'm guessing that this wasn't your idea for your life, that this wasn't, you know, on your vision list that you wanted to go and sign up and be involved in this kind of expression. So I think there's healing and there's forgiveness and understanding that as human beings, we're not only living our own lives, we're also part of this collective experience that we're having on the planet.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  And, you know, I think that there is a place to find forgiveness and to find some release from the personalization of what you experience, which of course is extremely personal. But I think there's a greater collective play that could be explored through some alternative healing methods, through breath work. I would really encourage you to explore finding some techniques that include breathing and actually releasing this energetic out of your memory.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  And, you know, again, finding a way to hold yourself in loving compassion for the horrors that you have experienced.

• 39:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's a tough, tall order, you know, there's no easy path towards that. I mean, this is a guy who clearly has, you know, realized that he needs to go on that journey and went so far as to become a Hindu monk and is still suffering, right? And I think, you know, one kind of approach that might be helpful, if he hasn't already considered it, is understanding that this distinction between sort of the acts that you perpetrate and your higher consciousness, right? And understanding that there's a meta-play That's involved here, that a set of circumstances that are systemic to our culture and the way the world operates, placed him in this position. Of course, he made a conscious

• 40:34Rich Roll?

  decision to become a soldier, but at the same time, he, you know, made that decision without all of the evidence, right? And this thing is already underway that he found himself in the middle of, and to survive, you have to participate. And so then he perpetuates acts that are not in alignment with who he is, or what his higher consciousness dictates. And that dissonance between, you know, his idea of himself, or that higher self, and the person that, you know, did these things are at odds with each other. So how do you reconcile that, like, and even out that equation? You know, it's very difficult. Like, I don't, you know, I don't say, "Oh, do this and you'll be fine." You know, clearly, he's, he's making

• 41:19Rich Roll?

  the effort and has, you know, undergone, you know, he's undergone extensive work to try to get to that place and still continues to struggle. So I think patience and graciousness and sort of gentleness on yourself and understanding, like, it's not going to happen overnight. But to, you know, continue to engage the process of trying to heal that. And I think maybe getting yourself, you know, I think what, what, what potentially, you know, occurs in this situation, and I don't want to sound like I understand it completely and empathize, because I've never been in this situation, but I think that, in my experience, you know, this can become an obsession of the mind, where you become completely self-obsessed

• 42:01Rich Roll?

  with your own pain. And that's not helping you, and that's not helping anyone else. So, you know, one way towards, sort of, exercising that healing muscle is to be of service to other people, like, maybe help out other veterans, or, you know, be of service to other people that are experiencing PTSD. So, you know, you can be a resource to someone else, and the more you can kind of invest in somebody else's struggle and pain, then that will take you out of your own obsession of the mind. And I think that will give you some relief, at least as a stepping stone towards completely healing it.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I feel like there is a freedom in, in taking the responsibility. So,

• 42:45Speaker 01

  There's a process of really looking at your actions, looking at the acts in a very clear way of like what went down and exactly what were the feelings, sensations, and details around those events. And by taking this higher perspective of the reality that you are an emanation of a greater source, that you agreed to come in here and sort of play this role for a certain evolutionary purpose, both your own and also collectively. So by taking the victim sort of out of it and sort of owning your life and understanding

• 43:24Speaker 01

  that for some reason, as horrible as it is and as horrific as it is in places, there was some agreement at some level for this exchange to happen. And so what would be a tragedy would be if you didn't get the lesson from it, if you didn't receive the expansion from it. And so, you know, God or consciousness is all forgiving, unconditionally loving and forgiving. So there is a place for you to revisit these experiences and to clear them and release the victim energy, release the violence from them, and come to a place of understanding and acceptance so that you can leave them behind.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  This happened many, many years ago. It's time to move forward and to release them. You still are here now. You have this moment now, and you have, God willing, many more moments. So the question is, what are you going to do with your life now? Like, what are you doing now? And in that presence of the moment and in releasing your past with responsibility and with ownership of it as a greater soul, you can transcend this entire play and move into a much higher state of being.

• 44:48Rich Roll?

  Right, not in a penance kind of way, like, oh, the rest of my life is now a prison sentence where I have to try to atone for this, you know, this sin that I've perpetrated.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  No, in the, in the, in the, in the experience, or the feeling, or the spirit of, that we are reborn in every moment. And that's why I tried to link him to the breath work. Because within the breath, we're reborn. Every time you take a breath, it's a new moment energetically. And so by working with the breath, I think it could be a transformational way for him to rise out of this experience. And absolutely, no, I'm not talking about any penance. I'm talking about releasing the past and moving into the moment and understanding that you, you are alive right now and you have a moment in front of you. And you have the opportunity

• 45:42Speaker 01

  to create whatever you want to with that moment. And so I'm more concerned about what are you doing now than for you to be focused and living in a past moment that is no longer existing.

• 45:58Rich Roll?

  I also think that it's an incredibly powerful, potent, and timely story. And there are, you know, countless people that are suffering similarly, who are in dire need of help, who don't even have the courage to write an email like this. So on some level, he is already, you know, very much in touch with what's going on. And the fact that he has exercised, you know, such efforts to try to heal himself is an indication that he's owning his story. And I think to the extent that, that, that, that he can, or you, if you're listening, can get to a place where you can share it more openly with other people,

• 46:38Rich Roll?

  with others that are suffering similarly, or even with the general populace at large, will have a tremendous, a tremendously powerful impact on healing all of us. Because the, the extent of PTSD in our veterans and in our soldiers...

• 46:58Rich Roll?

  Is profound and there really isn't enough treatment or enough acknowledgement or enough resources or help for those that suffer. So to the extent that we can all be made more aware of just how severe and significant this is, then collectively as a culture, we can raise awareness and hopefully, you know, marshal additional treatment resources to come to the aid of those that are suffering silently.

• 47:35Rich Roll?

  Are there any books that you can recommend?

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Well, I mean specifically to, you know, just to any evolution is, you know, I would say Rasha, Oneness by Rasha would be a good, a good-

• 47:55Rich Roll?

  That's always your go-to.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  It's kind of a go-to. It's pretty comprehensive and it sort of describes, you know, life on earth from an expanded perspective and you start to see, you know, patterns for different stages of life and, you know, just kind of a new perspective at looking, at looking at life. But I don't have a specific book for trauma and again, I would again just, you know, you said you were a Hindu monk. I don't know how much of that is steeped in religion. So, you know, a yogi is different than Hinduism. So I would, I would, I would wonder if you would find some more freedom in embracing some of those spiritual practices. And of course, you know, pranayama would be, you know, a practice to engage in. But

• 48:41Speaker 01

  I'm even thinking of some rebirthing type of processes where you're actually using the breath work to get experiences and energetics out of your body to move beyond that. So I think your answer is in the breath, you know, in some sort of technique or, or practice.

• 49:02Rich Roll?

  All right. Did we answer his question?

• 49:06Speaker 01

  I hope we did.

• 49:07Rich Roll?

  I think we did to the best of, of our ability. So I think we did it for today's episode of Ask Me Anything. How do you feel?

• 49:15Speaker 01

  I feel good.

• 49:16Rich Roll?

  Feel good?

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:18Rich Roll?

  You ready for me to leave town again?

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 49:24Rich Roll?

  That's so reassuring. I feel fantastic about that answer.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  I'm so sad you're leaving. No.

• 49:30Rich Roll?

  I feel better now.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  No, yeah, I guess I'm, I'm not really ready for you to leave town. You've only been back like five minutes. Your suitcase is still in the living room. But, you know, you're, uh, I'm happy you're going to touch people and speak to them and reach them and share your message. That's awesome. I'm, I'm excited about that. And I'm kind of, you know, I'm working on some books right now. So I'm becoming you. Actually, I started to become you last week a little bit.

• 49:54Rich Roll?

  Right. Julie calls me, uh, we're FaceTiming. I'm in Beirut. She's like, I'm so, I have so much anxiety. I've got to get this done. I've got to get that done. I don't have any time. And I'm like,

• 50:04Speaker 01

  And I said, I'm obsessed by my book.

• 50:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was it. You're like, all I want to do is write and work on my book. And all this other stuff keeps invading my time.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  My writing.

• 50:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Welcome to my world.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I had become very, I was very in my writing and I was, um, understanding that life doesn't let me write for as long as I want.

• 50:23Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah. You got to go into the cave, man.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. So I know. I was in a man cave.

• 50:27Rich Roll?

  So, uh, the other big news with you is that you're banking some podcast episodes for your new podcast. You want to at least like bait the hook a little bit?

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's so cool. Thank you. Yeah, I'm super excited. I actually, I've been talking about doing this for a while. And with everything else that we're working on, there was never the time. And then I actually was just recording, um, a little rough sitar track, um, and some vocals with, uh, my engineer, my sound engineer, Brad Swanson. And he was up in my meditation room, which no one ever goes up in there except me. And the sound was so gorgeous. And just all of a sudden, I was like, okay, we're going to record a podcast. And so, right there in the moment, the podcast was born. Um, I have seven episodes banked. Um, I'm expecting to launch on the 22nd of December. Um, and I'm super excited.

• 51:15Rich Roll?

  You better do that now.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  I know. Well, I kind of said that. Now I do. Yeah, exactly. So the, the, the show is called Divine Throughline. And, uh, that's the name because it is focused on all things spiritual and really just the sacred thread that weaves together life. And, you know, how do we, um, explore life from a spiritual? Perspective in all things. It's not a guest format and the podcasts all open up with a raw musical performance. And then about thirty minutes of spiritual discourse. I will be posting a second podcast episode on the same day, which will include a technique.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  So it is a technique of healing, of meditation, of transformation, or you know, something in that category. So I'm super excited and thanks to everybody who's been emailing me and Instagramming me and supporting me. I really, really, really do appreciate all that.

• 52:14Rich Roll?

  Right. So no interviews?

• 52:16Speaker 01

  No interviews.

• 52:17Rich Roll?

  I don't know how you do that. Like for me to, the hardest part of this whole podcast for me is when I have to do the intros and I'm just alone and I gotta talk into the microphone without having an exchange with another human being. Very difficult.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, I am having an exchange because I'm having an exchange through the music and it's really groovy as, you know, I sang like, you know, I did some song like the first, I don't know, five or six episodes and then Brad played one yesterday and Tyler's coming on next week. So it's, it's not just all me and what's been cool is that Brad, you know, he's a spiritually inclined man and musician and lives his life that way and he was able to hold the space for me to create all of my music, which is all spiritually based. So, you know, he, he knows me well and has always been able to hold that space for me to be free in that.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  So it's not, it's not quite as hard as what you think it is. It's easier.

• 53:16Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, stay tuned. I haven't listened to any of it yet, so I have no idea.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  You'll hear it when anywhere and everybody else does.

• 53:22Rich Roll?

  I don't get to hear it ahead of time.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  You're too busy anyway.

• 53:24Rich Roll?

  All right. All right, so let's lock it down. Thanks so much, you guys, for tuning in today. Couple of quick announcements before we say goodbye. Make a point of subscribing to my newsletter, you guys, if you haven't already. I'm doing weekly podcast updates, product offers, and I'm going to start sharing some additional exclusive content there. Just helpful information oriented around the wisdom of my guests, like Sri Mati, and their books, and their films, and their products, and their resources, stuff that I'm finding helpful in my own life. So, go ahead, subscribe. I'm never going to spam you. As you guys know, iTunes-only catalog's the most recent 50 episodes of the show, so if

• 54:04Rich Roll?

  you want free access to the entire back catalog of the show, all 192, 93, 92 episodes? 92, I think. At this point, the only way to do that is to get my free iOS app. Just search Rich Roll in the App Store or on iTunes. You can find it there. It's totally free. We have a new version coming soon that's going to deal with any bugs you might be experiencing. And we are working on an Android version. We don't have one yet. But, anyway, I also can give updates on the app about appearances and other kinds of things that are going on. And it's really just easy and fun and simple to use. You can read the blog posts there, all that kind of good stuff. And it's your way to access all of the amazing episodes, if you're new to the show, that

• 54:47Rich Roll?

  perhaps you haven't had a chance to be able to see or review yet. So, that's it. Thanks so much for subscribing on iTunes, for giving us a review. For always making sure to use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. The banner ad is right there on the podcast page. It's also on every episode page at the bottom. We have Amazon banners for the United States and the UK. There's a little toggle on the episode pages at the bottom, whether you're in the UK or the US. We do not have one for Canada or any other territories. Canada actually didn't accept our petition, our application to be an Amazon affiliate. Maybe we'll appeal that. But, anyway, it doesn't cost you guys anything. It's just a really great, easy, simple, free way to support what we're doing, and really does help us out a lot.

• 55:32Rich Roll?

  So, thank you so much. For all your plant power needs, go to richroll.com. We have signed copies of our cookbook, The Plant Power Way, also signed copies of Finding Ultra. We have Julie's amazing guided meditation program. We got nutrition products, like our vitamin B12 supplement. We have 100% organic cotton garments. We have plant-powered tech tees, t-shirts you can wear when you're running. Or at the gym, we have sticker packs, temporary tattoos, we have limited edition art prints, all kinds of cool stuff to take your health and your life to the next level. So that's it. We were gonna take us out with a song, Julie?

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Sure, why not? Sri Mati music. Sri Mati, why not? How about Cry?

• 56:13Rich Roll?

  Have we done that one?

• 56:14Speaker 01

  We probably have, but a long time ago.

• 56:16Rich Roll?

  All right. Cry by Sri Mati, accompanied by our boys Tyler and Trapper.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  That's right. Produced and arranged and performed by Tyler and Trapper Piatt.

• 56:25Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Actually, Harrison played bass on that track also.

• 56:28Rich Roll?

  Right on. And Brad, who you were just talking about, who works with you on your new upcoming impending podcast, also did-

• 56:36Speaker 01

  He engineered it.

• 56:37Rich Roll?

  He engineered it, right. All right, cool. So I'll be in touch with you guys in a couple days from the road. Got lots of cool, new, exciting podcast guests coming soon. And I'm gonna be recording a few episodes when I'm traveling, most notably, Dr. Michael Greger.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Great.

• 56:56Rich Roll?

  We're both speaking at this event in Atlanta. He's got a new book coming out, I think it's coming out in December, called How Not to Die, or How to Not Die?

• 57:03Speaker 01

  How to Not Die.

• 57:05Rich Roll?

  No, How Not to Die.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  That's How Not to Die.

• 57:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The first question I'm gonna ask him is, how did you decide between those two titles? That's gonna be a huge book. He's amazing. He was one of my very early first guests on the podcast way back, almost three years ago. We're coming up on this three-year anniversary-

• 57:20Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 57:21Rich Roll?

  -of the podcast, which is crazy. And that was a Skype interview. And so, he's really kind of an extraordinary guy. So I'm gonna pin him down, sit him down, and force him to answer my questions for the podcast, plus a couple other cool ones that I'm gonna be doing on the road. So, lots of stuff to look forward to you, too.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 57:42Rich Roll?

  Right? All right.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  Sounds great.

• 57:44Rich Roll?

  Peace and plant, everybody.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Hey, namaste, everybody.

• 57:46Rich Roll?

  Right on.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Be well.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Trying to make sense of everything in life.

• 58:10Speaker 02

  Trying to sort it all out in my mind.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  Love is not a problem to be solved.

• 58:31Speaker 02

  I only cry, cry.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  Used to be approval was my thing.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  What you think of me was all that seemed.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  Important in the achievement of a dream.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  In your blue eyes.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Now I see the truth inside of me.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  Find to love myself has got to make me.

• 59:49Speaker 02

  Not for what I thought you wanted.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  For me to be.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  My heart beats open wide My heart beats open wide My heart beats open wide My heart beats open wide

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Trying to make sense of everything in life

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  Trying to sort it all out in my mind

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  Love is not a problem to be solved

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  I only cry, cry

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Be