Tommy Rosen On Life Beyond Addiction

Addiction doesn't discriminate. It doesn't care how smart you are or how much money you have. Left unchecked, it will destroy your career, decimate your relationships, asphyxiate your aspirations and ultimately bankrupt your soul until you are but a shell of a human being — totally lost, devoid of hope and utterly alone. I've been there. Tommy Rosen has been there too. By the grace of a power greater than ourselves, both Tommy and I found a way out. A solution for sobriety that slowly pieced us back together, made us whole and gave our lives purpose. That solution is the focus of today's conversation. With over twenty-four years of continuous sobriety, Tommy is an addiction recovery expert who has spent the last two decades immersed in yoga, recovery and wellness. He is the author of Recovery 2.0: Move Beyond Addiction and Upgrade Your Life*, and the founder and host of the Recovery 2.0: Beyond Addiction Online Conference. In addition, he holds certifications in both Kundalini and Hatha Yoga and leads Recovery 2.0 retreats and workshops internationally and presents regularly at yoga conferences and festivals. This is a conversation about Tommy's remarkable path to recovery. It's an intense and at times profound discourse on the ravages of addiction and alcoholism. And it's a master class on the healing journey to becoming whole through the lens of Tommy's expertise, which is utilizing yoga and meditation to empower people to free themselves from the prison of addiction and ultimately build purposeful, fulfilling lives. If you are suffering from some form of addiction, this episode is a must listen. Even if you're not an addict, I encourage you to embrace this conversation as a means to better understand the affliction, as chances are you probably know someone in need of help, I sincerely hope you enjoy this powerful exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  Addiction hits you on four levels. It hits you at the level of mind, the level of body, the level of spirit, so your spiritual connection, and also, it messes up your relationship with time. If you want to recover from addiction, therefore, you've got to address it at all four of those levels. So, people who are scientifically minded, or medically minded, or who need proof, and white papers, and peer-reviewed science, have to understand that you're dealing with something that attacks the human being at every level of their being. Some of those levels cannot be measured. So, how can we convince people that actually the solution is to stop looking for escape

• 1:49Speaker 01

  hatches and to sit still long enough to develop a real and true relationship with yourself? A real and true comfort with yourself?

• 1:58Rich Roll?

  That's Tommy Rosen, this week, on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody. How you guys doing? What's happening? My name is Rich Roll. I am your host. Welcome or welcome back to my podcast. I'm coming at you guys today from Portland. I'm here for an event called the World Domination Summit. It's this incredible conference put on by Chris Gilbo, who's a former podcast guest and author, a really amazing guy. After we did our podcast, I think it was about a year ago, he invited me to come here and speak and I'm just, I'm touched and honored to be here. And I love this city. It's best when the weather is great, which it is right now. I went out for a really cool run this morning and I appreciate all the shout outs and the hellos and the high fives that I got this morning

• 2:55Rich Roll?

  when I was out on my run. It never ceases to amaze me when I travel, running into or encountering fans of the podcast. So if you see me out there on my travels, please never hesitate to say hello or introduce yourself. That is, that is like manna for me. I really get a lot out of connecting with all of you. So I appreciate that. And Portland is a really special city for me because it's a city where I got sober. I went to rehab just outside the city here back in 1998. So coming here always brings me back to that time. It helps me to revisit what it was like for me at that period of time, that very difficult period when I was caught in that cycle, that prison of addiction.

• 3:39Rich Roll?

  And it gives me perspective on how far I've come, this journey that I've been on. And that really grounds me and gives me this amazing infusion of gratitude. And I bring that up because I've been getting a lot of emails and messages lately, over the last couple of weeks, asking me, how come I don't speak about recovery as much as I used to? That we need more of that on the podcast. And I wasn't aware that I had avoided it or that I wasn't speaking about it, frankly. It certainly wasn't a conscious decision because recovery infuses everything that I do and who I am. But if you are one of those people who's been yearning for me to address this in a more direct fashion, then you're in for a treat. With today's guest, Tommy Rosen, because Tommy and today's discussion is all about addiction

• 4:24Rich Roll?

  and recovery. And I love that there's this great weird, universal convergence that I'm presenting this episode from the place where I myself got sober. It's just one of those beautiful little synchronicities that's super cool. In any event, Tommy is a yoga teacher and addiction recovery expert with 24 years of sobriety himself, who has spent the last two decades immersed in yoga, recovery, and wellness. He holds certifications in both Kundalini and Hatha yoga, and is the author of Recovery 2.0: Move Beyond Addiction and Upgrade Your Life. He's also the founder and host of the Recovery 2.0 Beyond Addiction Online Conference Series, which is going on right now, another synchronicity. I'm

• 5:09Rich Roll?

  a featured guest, as is podcast favorite Guru Singh. I'll put a link up in the show notes for you guys to check that out. It's definitely worth your energy and your time. And Tommy leads something called Recovery 2.0 Retreats and Workshops internationally, and presents regularly at yoga conferences and festivals. I've got a couple more things I want to say about Tommy and the upcoming discussion, but first...

• 5:40Rich Roll?

  All right, today's conversation. So, this is obviously a conversation about addiction, alcoholism, it's about spirituality, and the varying paths to sobriety and recovery, with a specific lens on not only Tommy's personal story, but on his expertise, which is utilizing, leveraging yoga and meditation to empower people to move beyond addiction and build fulfilling lives. So with that said, I think that's enough. Let's meet Tommy.

• 6:13Rich Roll?

  Tommy Rosen in the house.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  So good to be here.

• 6:16Rich Roll?

  I'm super stoked to talk to you. We're going to talk about addiction and recovery and sobriety and spirituality and yoga and meditation and God and everything, right? We're going to solve the universe's problems.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Basically, all the reasons I'm alive.

• 6:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, me too, right? Just as kind of a preface to this, for the last couple of years, I mean, this is the first time we've actually met in person. I did your show. Thank you for having me on your Recovery 2.0 program recently. But prior to that, for years, people would say to me, well, you know Tommy Rosen, right? Like, you guys must be hanging out all the time because you guys talk about the same stuff and you're kind of vibrating on the same wavelength. And I'd be like, no, I don't, I don't know this guy. I mean, then I looked into you and I was like, oh, this guy's cool. But it was amazing to me how frequently your name would pop up with mutual friends and acquaintances of ours.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Well, that's a story that has a way that it played out in my life as well with you, your name constantly coming up. And I would always say to people, what makes you think that I'm an insane endurance athlete?

• 7:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  That I have, that I would ever be ending up where this incredible athlete is spending his time in his life.

• 7:28Rich Roll?

  And, you know, I don't want to be mistaken as an expert on things like yoga and meditation. They're subjects I'm interested in and I love to talk about and I'm a practitioner, but hardly a, you know, hardly renowned for my adeptness in these fields. So I'm anxious to learn more and hear your story. So let's track it, man. I mean, you know, you've had an incredible life and so many permutations and, you know, valleys and peaks to get you to where you are right now. We're going to talk about all of that, but, you know, let's begin at the beginning.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  When people ask me, often people will say, you know, tell me the story of addiction in your life. And I'm like, I hope you have some time.

• 8:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Which part do you want me, you know, where do you want me to start?

• 8:13Rich Roll?

  Well, you know, I want, maybe we could start by, by hearing a little bit about what your childhood was like and kind of, you know, how you conceptualize what, you know, triggered your path into, into addiction.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Yes. I definitely entered the world under interesting circumstances. My parents were on their way out as a couple. A lot of emotional stress and pain in their lives, particularly in the first year of my life, which was the last year that they were together.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  We learned from people like Gabor Maté and other people who have looked at addiction that trauma, especially early childhood trauma, plays a major role in addiction developing later on. I have no recollection of the first year of my life or the first, really, four or five years of my life. But based on the testimony of aunts, uncles, cousins, and older sisters, there was a tremendous amount of turmoil in the home in which I grew up as a child.

• 9:17Rich Roll?

  We're on the East Coast?

• 9:19Speaker 01

  East Coast, New York City. My mother came from very socialite circumstances. My father, quite the opposite end of the tracks. They met, they fell in love. They had my sister in 1965. They had me in 1967. My mother drank heavily. She smoked cigarettes unbelievably heavily through her pregnancy with me. So there was drinking and smoking. I'm sure my first couple of days on the planet Earth were particularly uncomfortable as I was

• 9:51Rich Roll?

  Detoxing your nicotine habit that you developed in the womb?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  There's no question about it. And there's actually a picture, a famous, in our family, famous picture of my mother in a hospital bed with a cigarette and the scotch right by the bed as she had just given birth to me.

• 10:08Rich Roll?

  So madman.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 10:10Rich Roll?

  This is classic. And then, if I'm not mistaken, your dad came out of the closet, right? That was a big triggering event in the gestalt of your parents' marriage?

• 10:21Speaker 01

  No question. My father... Now, you have to understand, contextually, we're talking about late 60s. This is before gay rights. We're in the middle of civil rights. There's all kinds of turmoil in the country. And in my mother's life in particular was the turmoil of trying to prove herself to her father. She had already been married once as an 18-year-old. She had my older sister Julie with her first husband as a 19-year-old.

• 10:50Rich Roll?

  So that's a heavy... I mean, at that time, that's no small thing.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  At 20 years old, she finds herself a single mom. Later on, a year or two later, she meets my father. They fall in love, they marry. And then, five years later, I come along. And about a year after I was born, my dad, in a low emotional moment, it basically, his reality and his lie and his, his thing came crashing down and he said to my mom, one day, he told her that he was gay. Out of the blue. Which was, some people would say, nowadays, people would say, "Oh, she must have known." On some level, she must have known, but no.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  It, it, it is, it was an impossibility. It, it couldn't, it couldn't, what would that even mean? Was he sleeping with men? Had he been sleeping with men while they were married? Was he gay? Was he bisexual? How could he have married me? How could we have had children?

• 11:47Rich Roll?

  Or how could she lack the, uh, sort of, you know, EQ to be able to register that?

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, incredibly painful for her, uh, on a certain level. On the shame side of things, I don't think she ever really came back from it. And as a woman who's trying to prove herself to her father, who was incredibly homophobic, misogynistic, difficult as it was, here, in, in my grandfather's words, "My mother had married a faggot." Right. That's where, that's, that's what we're dealing with. So my mother, uh, you know, and her, the rift between her and her father became greater. Her shame must have been epic. My father's shame was epic. Uh, he was basically ostracized, blacklisted, if you will, from certainly anyone on that side of the family.

• 12:35Rich Roll?

  Cause his daughter, very, oh my god.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Can you imagine?

• 12:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and the, the, the scarlet letter that then she has to bear. And, and this shit rolls downhill, man. So this is spilling into how you're being raised, no doubt.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so I think, as, you know, my parents, in, in, with all of this struggle and, and emotional challenges of their life, they were amazing people. Highly educated, deeply interested in life and people and the well-being of people, always engaged in progressive politics, forward-thinking, loved the arts, loved the theater. I mean, these were amazing.

• 13:12Rich Roll?

  Right, so, so sort of New York Manhattan intelligentsia?

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:17Rich Roll?

  Village Voice?

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 13:18Rich Roll?

  People, you know, did they work in the arts or?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Well, my father, interestingly, he was very much on the conservative side of things, despite the fact that he was a gay man. He was, he was a Republican gay man, which is a weird combination of things, especially at that time. But, you know, highly educated, interested in, in, in life and living and, and being engaged and had a really tremendous heart, both of them. But they encountered emotional circumstances that were bigger than the tools they had to deal with those things. That gets passed on.

• 13:52Rich Roll?

  Right. And so, when, what's your first recollection of, you know, bearing that cross?

• 13:58Speaker 01

  I can remember, you know, in my own awareness of being an individual, I can remember waking up around five years old and being very excited to make it to the kitchen so I could have a cup of strong black tea with milk and a lot of sugar poured into it. I, I really, on a, on a daily basis, getting excited to wake up to get to the kitchen to have that tea.

• 14:21Rich Roll?

  That's the first drug of choice?

• 14:23Speaker 01

  I think so. I mean, first knowing drug of choice.

• 14:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  And I-

• 14:26Rich Roll?

  You're making a conscious decision to seek something out that will alter your emotional state.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  I would say it was an unconscious decision. I was aware of the pull, but not aware of what it meant. And what I was setting up in my life was this, this rhythm. The rhythm was feel a low-grade sense of anxiety and anxiety that I'm not exactly sure of its origin. Do something about it. So get high, right? Find a way to relieve that sense of anxiety. Get high. There's a rhythm and then crash. Cause I also remember as a kid, maybe around eight or nine or 10 o'clock in the morning, feeling that sense of a low-grade dread, that feeling of, oh my God, something's wrong. And what was wrong was I was coming down off of sugar and caffeine.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  And then I would chase that for the rest of the day through some other form of sugar, basically, or sugar-filled food or candy.

• 15:22Rich Roll?

  But you didn't have like a conscious awareness of that at the time? You were just chasing it?

• 15:27Speaker 01

  No sense of it. I was setting myself up unknowingly for a walloping case of addiction in my adult life.

• 15:36Rich Roll?

  So did you have that thing, you know, that we always hear about that, that, that sense of, you know, lacking the roadmap for life or that, that feeling of separateness from, you know, your peers that a lot of people in recovery talk about?

• 15:53Speaker 01

  The, the thing that I felt was a sense of, I felt ashamed of my family, though I couldn't place it. I remember my parents coming to school to visit and I was the kid that didn't want to claim my parent as my parent necessarily.

• 16:11Rich Roll?

  And dad had split, moved out or?

• 16:13Speaker 01

  He, well, he had split from the home, but he was very much present in our life for our entire life.

• 16:19Rich Roll?

  Is he still around?

• 16:20Speaker 01

  No, my parents are long gone now, unfortunately. That's a, that's a story how they, how they ended up. You know, these emotional things became very physical realities in their life later on. But so I, I had, on the one hand, I was, I was incredibly in love with my father. Like I can't tell you how, what he meant to me. And our relationship, everybody would tell you that we had one of the closest father-son relationships they'd ever had. He was, you know, he was so, so there in my life, came to every sporting event and really showed up for me and was huge. He was also smothering and, and, and overprotective and concerned and worried and anxious.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  So that would be the shadow side for him. On my mother's side, she was more neglectful, especially in the early years. She was so caught up in her own pain and her bitterness. And so she was a very angry, bitter exterior.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  And she could freeze a room when she walked into it. At the same time, she was this funny and loving woman who had just gotten caught up in all these emotions. So she would drink a lot, she partied a lot. And, and in particular, in her case, I felt like, God, I don't want the other kids to know that she's my mom. I remember that feeling and I'm, I'm even, I feel, I'm sad. I feel a little bit sad that I even could report that right now. Cause my mom was so amazing in so many ways, but that's how I felt as a kid.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  So that, that burden of something's wrong in my family, but I don't know what it is. And I don't know how to fix it and I don't know where my part in it is. There's a real confusion there. But I was, I was a popular kid growing up, very gregarious, a lot of energy, hyperactivity.

• 18:05Rich Roll?

  And so was your crowd like the, you ran with the cool kids and that clique or like athletes or? I mean, were you, you, this is pre like falling into kind of a stoner crowd, right?

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely. This was, this was much more of an athletic crowd. We, we played sports psychotically. That's all I could say. It's all we wanted to do. We traded baseball cards. That's all we wanted to do. So it was just about sports, activity, movies, always going, always doing a lot of energy. That's how we grew up.

• 18:38Rich Roll?

  And so where do, where do, you know, drugs and alcohol start to creep into, into your life?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Right around 12, 13 years old, we start to have, oh, oh yeah, we, we started to experiment. And it is New York City. It's all around you. Remember this is the 1970s.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Some, I, I have to look back and say that some enormous part of the population in New York is, is addicted to something.

• 19:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  In a big way in the late 1970s.

• 19:04Rich Roll?

  Disneyland for alcoholics.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Crazy. Yeah. Crazy.

• 19:07Rich Roll?

  What part of the city were you living in?

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Well, we were in the Upper East Side, what we thought was the safe area. And it was really more the repressed area in some ways. But we, I came from an upper middle class background, so there was, there was money, there was, there was, there was.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  We never wanted for anything.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  And there was this just weird thing going on in the late seventies in New York, you know, and you were perhaps an artist and you had an outlet there, or you were into drugs and alcohol and that was your outlet there, or there was violence and that was your outlet there, or you were, you know, one of the few people who had it together and you were just raising family and being athletic and healthy out in the world, which was unusual then.

• 19:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because when I think about New York City, I have an obsession with New York City in the seventies. Like, I feel like I was born out of time. Like, part of me wishes that I was like 25 years old, like, living downtown in New York City in like 1976. You know, there's, there is an allure and a pull to that dark underbelly and that incredible energy and, you know, artistic, creative explosion that was happening at that time in art and music.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Even as a sheltered Upper East Side kid, you felt it and you were excited by it. There was this thing going on. And I might have even said as a child, wow, that's weird. Oh, I could never be like them. Or wow, that looks weird. Look how they dress. What's so strange? But there was always an allure.

• 20:43Rich Roll?

  Undeniable.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  And the graffiti, the art. I mean, you're on the subway every day and it was, it's all around you. The, the, the vomiting forth of all this emotion and all this feeling and all this anger and all this creativity, looking for an outlet in a place where there really wasn't much of an outlet in, in a strange way.

• 21:08Rich Roll?

  And by the time you're 15, I mean, you could, you could get into Max's Kansas City or CBGB if you wanted to. Like, you could, you'd grow up fast in that city if, if you made that choice.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  We had, we had access to whatever we wanted to have access to, pretty much.

• 21:22Rich Roll?

  But you were pretty cloistered uptown.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we were, we were, we were Upper East Side. You know, upper middle class or wealthy kids who went to private schools, who were bussed, I mean, in my case, I was bussed through Harlem in the South Bronx every day to get up to Riverdale to where I went to school. And you'd look out the window of your bus and you'd just be like, oh, my God. I mean, we're going through the South Bronx in the 1970s. Every other building is burnt out.

• 21:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  People are suffering. It is abject and you're this, you're living, you know, two miles from this, three miles from this, and you're saying to yourself, my God, what, what, what is this? How does this figure into life? Well, for me, you know, it was, it was certainly, uh, drugs and alcohol sort of gave me a, a closer, uh, relationship with, with some of those folks. Cause you know, that was the equalizing ground. I could, I'm going up to Spanish Harlem to, to get pot, you know, and, and to buy herb from these supermarket windows where you used to go. And, and, uh, all of a sudden you're encountering these different personalities and these different people

• 22:33Speaker 01

  who are, at least as far as you're concerned, they're not criminal elements. These are not violent people. They're just a different color than you are. Or, you know, they're involved in, in, in, in providing people with, with drugs, you know? But, uh, never being violent. So it was this really interesting, strange sort of, uh, exploration into this other world. And, and that was the thing, Rich, is more than anything else, I wanted to get out of the world that I was in.

• 23:04Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So I presume it probably started with, you know, sort of sneaking into your mom's liquor cabinet or just sipping drinks when she's not looking, you know, at, at the party or whatever. But where does it turn into more of a, you know, an adventuresome, uh, exploration?

• 23:20Speaker 01

  The, yes, everything you just described. So there's the liquor cabinet. It was a prominent destination in the home, uh, for, certainly for my mom, most of my life. And, and then later, you know, of course, we, we took to it. The first time I drank alcohol, I drank so much that I got alcohol poisoning, almost died from it.

• 23:39Rich Roll?

  First time.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Very first time. And I genuinely wasn't trying to kill myself or anything like that. I never had had, and I have never truly had suicidal thoughts, actually, in my life. I'm always that kid that was happy to be here and just wanted to be able to transcend some of the pain that I was feeling. I overdid it out of ignorance. Almost died, didn't die, but made a decision in my mind right then and there alcohol was not to be the ticket. When I started to smoke pot, that's when it happened. That's when I felt something that I had been looking for my entire life up to that point.

• 24:15Rich Roll?

  That clicked in with you. So how old were you then?

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Thirteen.

• 24:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and that was it?

• 24:20Speaker 01

  I felt that feeling of relaxation, of ease, come into my body for the first time. I felt as if I had a deep breath for the first time in my life.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  And it was 1980, so Ronald Reagan's coming in, Nancy Reagan with her Just Say No slogan coming in, and it's a weird time for a kid like me who everyone everywhere is saying, "No, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this," but your own personal experience is this is making me feel better. Why would I stop?

• 24:51Rich Roll?

  Right. And so how long before it becomes, you know, I guess, quote unquote, like habit?

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Not long. I mean, you know, everybody who's educating, who's trying to share a message, whether that's with children or teenagers or adults, can be very quick to demonize a drug or an experience or what have you. Everybody wants to do that.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  They want to say, you know, marijuana, all bad. Any drugs, all bad. Alcohol, all bad. Psychedelics, all bad. And...

• 25:38Speaker 01

  It isn't like that in the real world.

• 25:41Rich Roll?

  Of course not. If you weren't getting that relief and having that kind of an experience, you wouldn't keep going back to it, you know. They say it works until it doesn't work, but it works. And sometimes it works for a while. I credit it with a lot of the sort of social skills that I was able to develop and interpersonal, like, it worked for quite a while before it started to rebel on me. And you have to acknowledge that. To repress that or deny that truth, I think, is being disingenuous and dishonest.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Yes, we want to come from a truthful place. And of course, any parent is concerned, wow, I understand that that was your real experience, but if I share that with my child, you're setting up a situation where you're condoning them doing these things, and these things lead to hardship and pain, et cetera, et cetera. And so where does that conversation go?

• 26:30Rich Roll?

  But you forsake trust. If you can be honest with your child and say, look, this was my experience, or this is the reality of it, then you engender a level of trust in that relationship, so that that person, should they choose to experiment, is going to feel comfortable sharing that experience with you. And through that communication, you can have a productive exchange about what that means in that person's life.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. You're speaking my language right there. And I think you, ultimately, I will ask parents that I work with, many of them have found that their kid has just started to drink, or they're smoking pot, or they found something stronger in their room, or whatever it is. They're thinking, I don't know how to handle this. I've got to shut this down. I've got to end this. And what I tell them is, well, actually, what's your goal here? And I say, isn't your goal that your child can go out in the world and have the ability to self-reflect, based upon their own experience, and to self-correct if they make a mistake, and to have the strength of character and personality to be able to

• 27:41Speaker 01

  make a shift and to make a good decision for themselves? Wouldn't that be your goal? And most parents are, yes, they'd agree with that. And so I say, well, don't make the end of drug use your goal, then.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Educate your child to make good decisions in their life. Open up a room for an open and honest discussion about what their direct experience is. Cause if you go against what their direct experience is, that's going to be a very confusing rift for that kid.

• 28:09Rich Roll?

  I think that's true of any number of life habits that you're trying to instill, you know, in your child. And I think that if you work at cross purposes with that and do the demonizing thing, then the impact of that is this is going to lead to the kid coveting it and being secretive about it and lying about it and shutting down from communicating with the parent about what is actually going on. And then you, as the parent, have lost complete control and ability to even engage.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  It's so true. And a lot of folks will come actually and speak with me about being in that phase where they'll even say, okay, I've actually lost control of my kid. And whatever the reasons are, they feel incredibly responsible, incredibly guilty. And maybe it's a parent who realizes that their child has become a drug addict or an alcoholic or some other thing. And they'll always ask, you know, what's the right course of action to help a person who you've lost control of in that way? And I'll try to remind them that while we feel like we always have control of our children,

• 29:23Speaker 01

  that's got an end date to it, no matter what. So we want to be able to recognize that we can influence, but we don't own and we don't control. That right there like can shift a dynamic between parent and child in a really positive way.

• 29:42Rich Roll?

  But that path back to a trustworthy relationship is what?

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Communication.

• 29:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  And it may be communication with a third party present. And I mean, it's really going to be very wise and conscious communication and a process of healing probably has to take place. Where, you know, a parent, there may be a lot of water under the bridge in a relationship between parent and child, a lot of pain, a lot of anger, a lot of yelling and resentment about things that have happened on both sides. So, one can't converse as if those things have not happened.

• 30:15Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  My mom, I remember my mom and dad used to try to speak to me when I was so angry. And, lo and behold, I wasn't really open to the conversation.

• 30:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're not hearing it.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Not hearing it.

• 30:27Rich Roll?

  It's not going through.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  And so, something would have had to happen where we could have had, a, a bridge would have to have been built, a therapeutic bridge, where someone would take me into one room, someone would take them into another room and say, "All right, what's the problem? Express yourself." Because really, that's all I was looking for, was a way to express myself honestly, but I, I, I don't, I didn't feel like I'd been given that.

• 30:50Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Now, I don't want to get too far off topic, because you asked me, "At what point does that become habit?" Drugs and alcohol are not the problem. They've never been the problem. And, we find out very quickly when we get sober and drugs and alcohol are taken out of our life, that the real problems that have been there all along are still there.

• 31:14Rich Roll?

  Of course. And now you don't have the cure. You don't have the, you don't have the self, you don't have the medication, you know? And that's very disorienting and, and even more painful.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  It's a tough day when you realize that your chosen medicine has been taken away.

• 31:31Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  And, when it's taken away, that you realize that it didn't turn out to be medicine at all.

• 31:36Rich Roll?

  Or just the realization that, that it isn't the drugs and the alcohol, but there is an underlying condition.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:44Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's a, that's a uphill battle in and of itself.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  That's right. So, you see, I had been in the habit that you're asking me about. I'd been in the habit since that four-year-old kid was getting up and going for that tea and that sugar in the morning.

• 31:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and it's just a, a progressive escalation of that habit.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:04Rich Roll?

  And prioritization of it.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  It's just another substance or behavior where I'm looking to the outside world.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  It could be a drug, an alcohol, any kind of behavior, sex, relationships, money-related, food-related approaches, anything that I can do to feel better from this, it can be low-grade or really high-grade anxiety. If it works for me, why wouldn't I go there?

• 32:32Rich Roll?

  Right, of course.

• 32:40Rich Roll?

  Were your parents sort of living vicariously through you? I mean, did they sort of project onto you this idea of who they wanted you to be in the world, some kind of something that you were shouldering?

• 32:51Speaker 01

  I don't think, I don't think that was one of our psychological demons, one of theirs, you know. My, my experience of them was more, you know, it was more self-centered on their part. It didn't extend to me. My, my father had his, his shame and guilt to deal with. My mother had her bitterness and anger and hurt to deal with. And so they weren't looking for me to be the happy person that they never got to be, or, or this person, or that person that they didn't get to experience. They were more sort of caught up in, at first, their own struggles, but later on, when I really became a full-blown drug addict, it was like, okay, ah, now we're, we really

• 33:36Speaker 01

  have no choice but to pay attention to what's going on here because our son now, his life is in danger.

• 33:42Rich Roll?

  And how long before that phase entered the picture?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  That was, so I started when I was 13 with substance. And I would say by the time I was 19, when I, when I got, see, it's interesting, marijuana is, I mean, I'm speaking generally now, marijuana's not going to kill you. It isn't. Oh, oh, there are prices you will pay for smoking pot. One of those prices is, in my opinion, as a yoga teacher now, the dimming of the human spirit over time. That's a big price to pay. But it's not going to kill you physically. And that's, that's sort of like, there's a pro and a con to that. Well, you're not going to die, but you're not going to fully live either. That's my, my opinion.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Psychedelic drug use is also not going to kill you. It can cause, for certain psychological makeups, it can cause some real, serious mental problems. For other people, it can give them a glimpse of something that's important, but not something that's sustainable or integratable into your life. But it's not going to kill you. Alcohol can kill you. Benzodiazepines, especially when mixed with alcohol, can kill you. Cocaine, heroin, crack cocaine, methamphetamine, all of that can kill you.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  So when I crossed over from this, you know, addiction for sure, but addiction to less immediately dangerous substances to what I would say the powders, essentially cocaine and heroin, when that happened, the stakes went up to a level that I couldn't have imagined before.

• 35:30Rich Roll?

  What was the impetus for crossing that line?

• 35:35Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 35:37Rich Roll?

  Do you remember it? Was it a momentous occasion?

• 35:40Speaker 01

  It sure was. I remember it like it was yesterday.

• 35:44Rich Roll?

  Was cocaine the first, was the first thing?

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Yes. So a friend approaches me, I'm in my, I'm at the end of my sophomore, I'm in the middle of my sophomore year in college.

• 35:54Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. On the east coast, where'd you go?

• 35:57Speaker 01

  I went to University of Colorado Boulder.

• 35:59Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  So I'm out in Boulder.

• 36:00Rich Roll?

  So you're like a Upper East Side stoner, what, like lacrosse playing? You know, like, I'm trying to picture, you know, you as a young guy. We were the same age, so the same era we came up in.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  I was a small kid. I was athletic my whole life, but I, I had such an atrocious diet, literally, that I didn't, I didn't nourish myself to the point where I could grow. And I didn't really, really reach puberty until I was about 18 years old. So I was this tiny kid.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  All my classmates had grown up. When I should have been on varsity teams, I just wasn't. I had all the agility in the world, but no strength, no size. And so people started to pass me by. That was very difficult for me, uh, growing up. So I wasn't that lacrosse playing kid. I wasn't the, like, when I had been a popular kid, all of a sudden, these people started to grow up and, and gain strength and, and athletic ability over me. And I had based part of my identity on those things. I all of a sudden was, was a much less popular kid.

• 37:01Rich Roll?

  Gotcha.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  I found, you know, marijuana to be, uh, sort of a, a more helpful identity. As a kid who was smoking pot, much more, you know, for my ego, the way it was and my, my fragile identity. I could find solace and comfort and community and, and love in, in the community of people that smoked pot. So that, that's the direction that I went in. Um, that was the kid. I was listening to the Grateful Dead. So you can, you could, you could peg me as a Deadhead.

• 37:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay. So now I got it.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. All right. So Deadhead kid.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:37Rich Roll?

  Upper East Side Deadhead kid.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:39Rich Roll?

  Like, dead, you know, it's like, there was always the joke about like the, the trust fund kid that was following the dead. It's like, oh, it's, you know, it's super awesome for you to have dreadlocks and, you know, go to all these dead shows when you don't have to worry about paying the bills.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:53Rich Roll?

  I, not, not saying that was you, but like kind of identifying with the, the Manhattan, you know, kind of pedigree.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:59Rich Roll?

  And then going off to Boulder, which is, you know, is kind of a deadhead-y kind of school.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 38:04Rich Roll?

  The 3-2 beer is flowing.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Well, that's hilarious. Well, uh, you could, you know, as far as the trust fund kid, well, I didn't have it. Uh, the trust fund, that is.

• 38:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And that's what I meant to say. Like, I'm not saying that you.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Sure. And I also, you know, for all the kids who are, who, you know, came, grew up with money, it's, it, it frankly, I see it as just another hurdle you're going to have to get past. Not a blessing necessarily, especially if you're leaned towards addiction. Money will be a real, uh, could, could be a killer for you.

• 38:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  But, but I, I, I went off to Boulder and so I'm the, I'm the deadhead kid who was smoking a lot of pot and putting all my energy and all my enthusiasm into the loving of this band and this community and psychedelic experiences and dancing my face off and all those things and finally finding some people that I felt at home with. So it was a beautiful thing for me, but there I am in the middle of my sophomore year. I'm, I'm the deadhead kid that swore to God I would never do cocaine. That's a line I'll never cross because first of all, it's, it looks like an evil drug. When I watch people do it, it looks kind of awful. And I, I just didn't want any part of it.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  And then one night, a kid, a kid in my class came up and he said, you know, hey Rosen, we, we've got a whole bunch of cocaine and these two girls want to hang out with us tonight. And there was something magical about that combination.

• 39:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like enter, enter the two girls and that rule goes out the window.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  I guess when I'm 19 years old, that was true.

• 39:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, if that had been presented to me, I, I would have made the same choice because I made the same promise to myself and, and luckily or unluckily, who knows? Like I didn't cross that line because for the same reason, I saw the lights go out and people that were doing that and you could tell it was like a demon possession. And I knew, you know, at 19, at 20, that alcohol was already, you know, a problem enough for me and that if I was to try cocaine, it probably would be the end of me. Like I knew I had enough self-awareness to understand that. And then ultimately I would have to stop drinking or it was going to kill me. So I just said, it's better to never crave it, to not know what that experience is like.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:19Rich Roll?

  Uh, and so I was able to avoid it. Perhaps if I had tried it, it would have brought me to my knees more quickly. Maybe I would have gotten sober earlier, maybe I would have died, who knows?

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yes, well, the, the interesting thing about cocaine that I say to people is I found nothing positive about it. It was such a painful experience, so unbelievably painful for my nervous system that I feel it affected me for years and years to come.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Negatively. And I, and I, the many, many, I don't know, the hundreds of nights that I spent awake, trying to fall asleep with the most negative thoughts bombarding me. Because cocaine has a grip on my nervous system and by this point I hadn't, I didn't have the sense to drink myself into oblivion or to get heroin or some other Valium or Downer that would break the grip of cocaine's hold on my nervous system. So I just, I would just be awake for these nights on end that you just couldn't believe how painful it was.

• 41:22Rich Roll?

  So despite not having like the, so that when you first do it, it's not like, oh my God, I found, I found my path to God?

• 41:31Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:31Rich Roll?

  You didn't enjoy it and yet you couldn't wait to do it again?

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Well, this is the thing, it's, it's a, it's a, it's, you're, you're on the dark side of life. And what I mean by that is you will feel it as a walloping high. I mean, your heart is pounding out of your chest and you feel this great sense of power. This great sense of presence all of a sudden like, wow. And it, it's literally gripping, right? It's gripping you. And so, yeah, there's a, there's a like to it in a dark kind of shadowy way. The come down from it is so, is so steep and so painful

• 42:15Speaker 01

  that all you can think to do is to try to recreate that high as quickly as you possibly can. Hence it's, it's massive addictive nature. So, you know, people ask me, you know, if, if you describe it as so horrible, what would make you come back time and time again? And it's, it's that walloping high. And really what's going on, we know from a, from a biochemical standpoint is the, the dopamine receptors in your brain are being treated to 12, it's like, I think it's 12, it's, it's, it's 12 times the amount of dopamine is released into your brain circuitry as when you're having sex. When you, when you do a hit of crack cocaine.

• 43:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  12 times the amount of dopamine as the sexual act. Now for most people, the sexual act is the most powerful thing they ever feel in their life. So what is, what does it mean for that to be 12 times stronger than that? Now you understand.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  And, you know, I say to people, if you've crossed over into the world of, of doing cocaine and you think it's recreational, I believe that that's not true. I believe that you're, you're in trouble. No matter who you are, I don't care. If you've crossed over into doing heroin, I think you're in trouble. If you, if you're doing OxyContin, I think you're in trouble. Vicodin, any opioid, I think you're in deep trouble. These are not recreational drugs. These are drugs that say, I am a person that no longer is going to deal with my life. I am, I am beyond that now. I'm taking things into my own hands and I've chosen a, a, a drug as my vehicle to navigate through the challenges of my life.

• 43:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's staggering the extent to which opioid addiction has proliferated. The extent of the population that is taking these kinds of medications on the regular is baffling. And it usually begins with a doctor prescribing it, you know, whether you, you hurt your knee or you had a surgery or you're just in a little bit of pain, the, you know, the quickness with which the doctor will pull out the prescription pad and write the, the oxy or the vicodin prescription is a huge problem.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  As you know, we're, we're dealing with the most

• 44:41Speaker 01

  painful epidemic of, of, you know, narcotics, opioids, painkillers that we've ever seen, ever. And if somebody wrote the true story of how this came down the pipe, it's not conspiracy. It's not people getting together to figure out how to create pain and suffering in people's lives. It's just greed.

• 45:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was thinking it's just capitalism.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  It's just greed. And it's, it's unconsciousness and greed. It's a bad combination. You know, in 1995, the FDA approves the use of OxyContin. And the reason they did that was because OxyContin was a long, had a long release. So people who were in end of life scenarios could take OxyContin and get a full night's sleep because it would last for 12 hours. Very quickly, very quickly, the doctors found out that that 12-hour number decreased literally as soon as a couple of weeks after use began. And all of a sudden, it wasn't even eight, or six, or even four hours.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  The addictive nature of this drug was so epic, people would have to keep taking it. So the reason it was originally released became, well, was proven, you know, not to be not true, not necessary.

• 46:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and for those that are listening that aren't familiar, it's pharmacologically incredibly similar to heroin.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Exactly. So you're just talking about any of those opioid drugs in a over-the-counter, available, powerful, incredibly powerful form. So that's heroin, morphine, vicodin, Percocet, all those drugs, that class of drugs, was just basically put into the form of a super pill that was intended for people who were in chronic pain, end-of-life scenarios. And lo and behold, doctors, all of a sudden, start prescribing this drug, not just for end-of-life scenarios, but for a multitude of different pain scenarios.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Fibromyalgia, lower back pain, migraine headaches. Now, flash forward 20 years. 2015, we're in the worst epidemic, opioid epidemic in our country's history, fueled in a great part by this, by the presence of OxyContin. With all of the information that we have, and all the knowledge of the damage that this drug has caused, in August of 2015, the FDA approves the use of OxyContin for children. Between the ages, between the ages of 11, 11 and 17.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  So

• 47:33Rich Roll?

  There's a powerful lobbying group behind that, no doubt.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  You ask yourself, you know, I know that we, you know, neuroscience tells us that that our brains are not really fully formed until 25 years old. That's it actually is 25 years when our brain, you know, fully takes its form. At 11 years old, a child gets OxyContin prescribed to them and has that experience. The, the, the way that changes that child's neurochemistry and circuitry and the development of that child's brain cannot scientifically be stated yet because we don't have enough

• 48:17Speaker 01

  time behind the use of this on children to know exactly what's going to happen. But I would be willing to tell you that 10 years from now, because of this, unless this law, unless the availability of this drug changes, we are just basically breeding a new generation of addicts.

• 48:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, it's inevitable, right? I mean, if you overpower a young mind with such a powerful drug and, and provide that kind of experience to somebody whose cognitive functions are not even actually fully formed, and you're just overflowing their brain circuitry, you know, with this incredibly powerful agent, even if it's a short period of time in which that young person is using it, the amount of time for the brain to then sort of recalibrate and reach homeostasis, it's a long time.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 49:09Rich Roll?

  I just know, and I know you know, through knowing, you know, hundreds and thousands of people in recovery, years and years and years for, you know, the brain and the body to kind of overcome all of these sort of, you know, the receptivity to these drugs that make it difficult to think straight and all of that, to, you know, regulate your mood and sleep and everything.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Yes. And it, it underlines a core, a very core problem in our society. And this is going to sound to some people like a ridiculous statement, especially if they're in the medical or scientific community, I think. But I feel confident in saying, we still don't, haven't begun to understand addiction. And haven't begun to understand how to recover from it and what that actually means. Which is a big reason why I'm doing what I'm doing. And trying to re-educate around those topics because, you know, you say to yourself, what could make somebody approve a drug for children? That has obviously been so disastrous for adults.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  Well, it's very simple. Somebody along the way said, well, that can't be proved scientifically. And that was good enough. Well, show me the, show me the data.

• 50:30Rich Roll?

  All you need is doubt. You know, it goes back to that idea of the merchants of doubt. If you can just inject enough doubt into the equation, then you can sail it through whatever regulatory process is required to get that thing approved.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Yes, and so that, thank you so much for that. And when I talk about the, the healing from addiction, I talk about, uh, there's four levels that it takes place on. Addiction hits you on four levels. It hits you at the level of mind, the level of body, the level of, um, spirit. So your spiritual connection and also it, it messes up your relationship with time. If you want to recover from addiction, therefore, you've got to address it at all four of those levels. So people who are scientifically minded or medically minded,

• 51:26Speaker 01

  or who need proof and, and white papers and peer reviewed science, have to understand that you're dealing with something that attacks the human being at every level of their being. Some of those levels cannot be measured.

• 51:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I would take it one step further. I mean, what is the impact on your soul, on your spirit? And

• 51:49Rich Roll?

  You know, let's not forget, you know, the spiritual component to all of this. And that's something that can't be measured scientifically. I know it for a fact to be true in my experience and the experience of many people that I know. And when you are, you know, if you're, if you're taking in this foreign mind altering agent into your body, you are disconnecting yourself from source. And that is truncating your ability to mature emotionally. But, but also you are disconnecting from your higher consciousness. And you become unfamiliar with your own self in a very profound way. And recovery is about, you know, plugging that back in and reconnecting to that.

• 52:33Rich Roll?

  And that's something that you're not going to be able to evaluate in a lab. And it's, you know, it's ephemeral and all of that, but you know, it's very real too.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  That's right. Now, now you and I are sitting here and, and let's say that we both have reestablished a connection with our self, our true self, that we've reestablished a, a spiritual connection with the world around us. And beyond the physical, but also a spiritual sense of being-ness has been restored to our life. The way that you got there with your family background, your story, your genetics, the things that you've eaten, the people that you connected with who gave you ideas, your teachers, your mentors, the things that you may have read. Everything you've been exposed to in your life has been a factor in your development as a human being.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  And no two human beings could possibly have the same unfolding of their development in the way that I'm describing. So how could you possibly put a, a metric on personal development? There's too many variables in each human being, in each individual. So the good news from my perspective is that, for example, in the world of yoga,

• 53:52Speaker 01

  You know, recently, I don't know how many years ago, maybe five, 10, 15 years ago, it came out, I think there was actually a newspaper article, meditation reduces stress. And like, you know, there are, every yoga teacher and every yoga practitioner and every meditator who read that headline that day, smiled and laughed. And it was kind of like, wow, really? You figured that out?

• 54:21Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Thank God that science has been able to prove that because for 5,000 years, we've proved that anecdotally. We've proved that directly through our direct experience in life. And by the way, we've written books about it. We've shared about it. And we have proved it in ourself and in our communities at large. But, you know, thank God that here in the, in the year 2010, or whatever it was, science has, has corroborated this, this great news.

• 54:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's hilarious, but I think at the same time, it's, it's indicative of an interest in science and exploring these things. And, you know, one of the things you said a few minutes ago is that, you know, we have so much to learn about addiction and recovery. At the same time, there's been a lot of progress in recent years with understanding, or at least better understanding how the brain functions and the mechanisms of addiction that are at play in the brain. And this is helping to inform treatment protocols. So I, I think it's an exciting and an interesting time. I think it's very much in its infancy. But it's going to be cool to see where it goes and how that kind of juxtaposes or interplays

• 55:33Rich Roll?

  with traditional ideas of recovery, you know, 12-step, Alcoholics Anonymous and the like, with treatment protocols going forward. I, I feel like we're in this kind of flux period right now, which I don't know if it's so good because, you know, I got sober in 12-step, I know you did. But now there's a little bit of science about some other stuff. And so people are very quick to dismiss Alcoholics Anonymous or 12-step, or, or, or just deem it antiquated. You know, and sort of parochial or what have you, without really fully kind of understanding the comprehensive, you know,

• 56:12Rich Roll?

  depth that it actually contains and, you know, the countless millions of people who have been helped and in many cases, saved by virtue of this program.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, my comment to people who vehemently come out against Alcoholics Anonymous or come out against the 12 steps in general, I just tell them, you know, you would not want to wake up in a world tomorrow morning without the 12 steps. Because you would find that there were several million people, I don't know exactly how many million, but several million people in the world who had found solace and connection and healing in that place, who had come from severe and chronic addiction that previously was unsolvable. You would all of a sudden find a world that was filled with those people without anywhere to go.

• 57:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's not a pretty picture.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 57:12Rich Roll?

  I mean, I think it's, you know, it's important to be open to new ideas and to be objective about what they can, you know, perhaps contribute to this problem, this growing epidemic that we have. And I think it, you know, there's a population of people that will perceive, you know, there's a certain population of people that will look at 12 step and say, that's malarkey, you know, for the reasons I just said. There's another population of people who will say, it's divinely inspired by God and it is an absolutely perfect program. But it's created by human beings. It's fallible. I wouldn't say it's perfect. It doesn't have a perfect track record. It's helped millions of people. It's saved my life. I, you know, I don't know what I would have done without it. It's unbelievable.

• 57:56Rich Roll?

  But I wouldn't say that it's perfect. And I think we need to be open to new ideas and how can we sort of continue to, you know, progress what we understand about addiction medicine?

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yes. Thank you so much, Rich. I want to comment on that. The, the point at which a spiritual program, meaning a program that requires self-inquiry, an examination of one's own life, and the experience one is having in connection to everything, that, that's spiritual to me. The point at which a spiritual program becomes a religious, dogmatic program, is the point at which we, we hear from people who say, "This is perfect. It's heresy to change it. Um, how dare you suggest, didn't this save your life? And now here you are, speaking out against it."

• 58:54Speaker 01

  I've heard all of those things. I am the first to say that the 12 steps absolutely saved my life, and there are things that they don't address, which when added as a supplement or a compliment to that program, makes that program and the whole experience even more successful and more powerful.

• 59:15Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the key thing that you said there is supplement or compliment as opposed to replace.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 59:22Rich Roll?

  You know, and I, I think a lot of the, the naysayers either are people that are not themselves addicts or alcoholics or in recovery, or perhaps had some kind of negative, you know, experience with the 12 steps, or are people that are so shut down spiritually that the mere sort of utterance of the word "higher power" or "God" just, you know, flicks the switch off for them and they can't hear anything else. And so, uh, they're unable to, you know, kind of explore it, you know, perhaps more objectively.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, when you come with a religious prejudice or a spiritual prejudice, or, or even a prejudice against certain kinds of words or phrases, that's gonna make it very difficult. And certainly, that's one of the, one of the barriers to entry for a 12-step program.

• 1:00:09Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  When you step into a room and you're reading the steps on the wall and eight or nine times in those steps, the word "God" is used. If you're coming there with religious prejudice, that's gotta be a little alarming for you in that moment.

• 1:00:24Rich Roll?

  And a lot of people do, because a lot of people are so broken, or they're so damaged, or they've been beaten down so hard by life and their addiction, that there's a sense that God has betrayed them, or whatever, you know, sort of hope and faith and that they had placed in whatever their religious upbringing was, or whatever concept of faith that they had, has been decimated by their own life experience. So it becomes very difficult to accept the idea that perhaps there is something beyond the senses.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Well, it's, it's at that moment that a person would, would do well, or would be fortunate to connect with a human being there who could translate for them, here's a way to access this, the goodness that is here, that doesn't require that you believe anything in particular. Here's a way that you can access the spiritual wisdom of what's in these steps, without being someone who believes in, in, in any particular vision or concept of God. And I know atheists who have gone through the 12 steps and done, done amazingly well.

• 1:01:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, you, you need a desire to stop drinking, and you need a belief, a fundamental belief, that this group of people has figured out a way to maintain sobriety in their own lives in some way, and that you can glean some wisdom from that, that would be applicable to your life, and, and hopefully help you sort of cross that hurdle for yourself.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, I, I think, you know, there is that gift of desperation that certain people have, that they are so beaten down that they need to stay there. And they stay there long enough for a positive effect to take place in their life, where they begin to have this thing called hope and faith, and, and real, real change, real transformation can take place for them, despite whatever they're bringing to the table when they arrive there.

• 1:02:29Rich Roll?

  All right, well, let's bring it back, though. Cocaine's blowing your mind, right? And so what happens then? Where does heroin start to enter the picture?

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  Once you're doing cocaine at that level, and especially crack cocaine, as I was smoking coke, you're now in this sort of psychotic realm of life. Like, you're...

• 1:02:49Rich Roll?

  The realm of the hungry ghost.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Fully the hungry ghost. You're not sleeping well. You're not eating much at all. You're starting to lose weight. People around you are taking notice. This is where you can no longer hide your addiction, though you may actually think you are. Because you're so uncomfortable physically from cocaine, or meth, or whatever else you're doing, because you can't sleep, you start looking for something to help you. And heroin was the thing that showed up for me. I tell people heroin was never my thing, and it truly wasn't. As a cocaine addict, I preferred to do cocaine. I preferred that feeling to the feeling that I got from doing heroin. However...

• 1:03:32Rich Roll?

  You gotta sleep so you can do more cocaine.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  There you go. There's a reason. And so, life very quickly came crashing down for me.

• 1:03:42Rich Roll?

  So is this still in college?

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Still in college. I'm 22 years old when my life, as I had known it, stopped.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  And I reached out to my father, the person that had always been there for me, the loving, caring, anxious, worried father.

• 1:04:06Rich Roll?

  Where's mom at this point?

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Mom's there. She's very present. She and the rest of my family are speaking to people at various addiction agencies in New York City to try to figure out what to do with their son to save his life.

• 1:04:19Rich Roll?

  I had a little of that going on, too. Yeah. So you... But then, so you finally reach out to your dad. He's probably happy to get that call.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Very happy to get that call, except that call was to tell him everything except the truth. And then he, he, he basically said, listen, I, I know you're on drugs. I know. And you're gonna need to go away and you're gonna need help. You've got to get help. And I said, I'm not gonna do it. And then my father broke down, started to cry. And there was a moment for me in that breakdown that, that opened the gates of willingness for me just a little. I glimpsed my dad's pain. And I said, stop, stop crying. I'll go. I'll go. And, uh, and off I went. More or less, I went and got help.

• 1:05:12Rich Roll?

  That's pretty powerful. I mean, you were able to have enough, you know, awareness, cognizance to tap into the level of pain that your behavior was causing.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  As I, as I had told you, you know, with all the troubles and all the challenges, you know, my dad had always been there for me. Never ever left me, never abandoned me. Always was there. As was my mom. He was just the warmer side. And so I, I went there, you know, and uh, I, I got help. I started my life again, went to Hazelton up in Minneapolis. I really got it. And, and then I started the second phase of my recovery, which, which for me is, so the first, the first phase is, okay, I'm so desperate. I need help. I'm not gonna be able to survive. And that's the first phase. And then you come through that phase and all of a sudden now you have to live a sober life.

• 1:06:05Rich Roll?

  Right. So you were, how long were you at Hazelton?

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  About 50 days.

• 1:06:08Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  And then you come back to, you go back to Colorado?

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  They had me go to halfway house for three months. I made it five days. And, and I left halfway house.

• 1:06:20Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Um, to this day, I stand by it as a great move in my life. Uh, I had no intention of using drugs or alcohol ever again. But I found the halfway house to be quite, quite literally an insane asylum. And I was very glad to leave there, even though my parents were certain that I was on, on my way to imminent relapse. And I went back to Boulder where I had been and everyone was sure I was headed for imminent relapse and I was determined to stay sober. And one story I'll tell you very quickly to, to sort of speak to the magic that was taking place in my life at the time. We'd been sending quite a lot of drugs through the mail, through Federal Express in Boulder,

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  Colorado, and it was always the same guy, the FedEx agent dude, who we'd give these packages to. I mean, we were so stoned and our eyes were red and we must have reeked like pot. And we'd walk in there with this like beautiful, perfectly sealed box, which was always sort of the same size, you know, and we'd be like- This guy's like- Here's a, you know- Okay. So I go back to Boulder after I leave halfway house and I, I, I'm like, you know, I'm like determined to stay sober. So I'm like, all right, I've got to go to meetings. You know, my counselor said, go to meetings, go to meetings. So I'm going to go to meetings. I'm not going to do anything else, but I'll go to a meeting. The first meeting I went to in Boulder, Colorado, I opened the door and the Federal Express agent is in the first seat.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Oh my God. You can't make that shit up. And I looked at him and he looked at me. He totally did a double take and we never spoke. It wasn't the kind of thing where at the end of the meeting, he came up to me and was like, I've been waiting for you to show up for the last three years. It wasn't that. Like, but I realized in that moment, if that guy was not a member of a 12-step program, if he had not himself come through addiction, he would never have let us just do what we were doing- Right. -in the hopes that maybe we'll get sober someday. Yeah, he just had you busted.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Oh, I would still be in jail to this day, 25 years later, probably. So- And he never brought it up? He never brought it up. We didn't become friends. It was none of that. It was just this, this miracle moment in my life where I, I look at that as God speaking directly to me of the universe saying, just so you know, your case is being considered. And by the way, we may come knocking someday and need something from you.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Right. Did you have that awareness at that time or did that kind of settle into you? No, the awareness at that time was, okay.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  Where do I put this? Like that's, I did realize that something extraordinary was taking place. But I had nowhere to put it, no understanding of how the universe worked, or the language of the divine, or you know, the ability for unseen forces to reach out to you in ways that only you could see and no one else would be able to understand. I didn't have any of that. So, I stayed sober for a year. I went to meetings, like I compartmentalized that part of my life. I would leave my life and go to a meeting. After the meeting, I would return back to my life. The meeting held no weight for me. I didn't share or let anybody get to know me, nor did I take an interest in anybody's life there.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  It was just a box to tick off each day. And if you treat your recovery like that, you're going to be bored. You're gonna find boredom. It's gonna come and you're gonna feel like, God, I don't really feel like going to this meeting. And the reason you don't feel like going is because it has no weight for you. You've invested nothing.

• 1:10:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you've invested nothing and you're not emotionally connected to anything that's going on.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Exactly. Now unfortunately-

• 1:10:18Rich Roll?

  They call it being a tourist.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I was a, I was a, I mean, I was barely even a tourist. I was a shitty tourist. Going to these meetings and... So after about six months, when I was, you know, I was going to a meeting every day, all of a sudden it was maybe four meetings a week. You know, and another month after that, the minute I started diminishing meetings, I was like, oh, this feels a lot better. You know, if four is good, maybe three would be better.

• 1:10:43Rich Roll?

  But even throughout that whole period of time, people aren't like, come on, man, let's go to dinner. Or they're not like wearing you down with, you know, kind of what happens when you're showing up all the time.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  It's funny.

• 1:10:52Rich Roll?

  Same people seeing you.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  You mean the people at the, at the meetings?

• 1:10:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  I bounced around a lot, went to different meetings.

• 1:10:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, don't go to anyone meeting too much, because you might have to talk to somebody.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  It really was that. I was in that phase between desperation, which had now worn off, right? I'm not desperate anymore. So the original reason why I got sober and why most people get sober is because you're desperate. Interestingly, it's a very good reason to get sober, but it's not powerful enough to keep you sober.

• 1:11:29Rich Roll?

  Right, it won't sustain you.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  Because you're gonna feel better and the desperation will go away and you'll start thinking. So I started thinking.

• 1:11:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I see. I sniff a relapse on the horizon.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I make it, I make it through a year. I graduate from college. Four days after I graduate, I'm at a, a, a party. There's a bunch of guys on a porch smoking pot and it was very simple. They were like, you know, do you want some? And I sort of looked over my right shoulder, looked over my left shoulder. There was nobody that I knew. And I said, sure. And I just started to smoke pot. Another hour later, at that party, I drank a little bit. A little bit later, I took some ecstasy. And I was back.

• 1:12:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:12:12Rich Roll?

  Didn't take much.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Didn't take much.

• 1:12:13Rich Roll?

  Right back on the horse.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  I was terrified of heroin and I was terrified of cocaine. So I, I pretty much stayed away.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  But an interesting thing happened for me through the next 12 months of relapse.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  I started to develop a feeling that I actually wanted to be sober.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  That I wasn't really living and that I was never going to be able to know what my life could have been if I didn't find a way to put down drugs and alcohol.

• 1:12:44Rich Roll?

  Well, that epiphany is a gift.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  So that's that second phase, what I call, that's the second bottom for me was, oh, I actually want this. And no, I don't have it and I don't know how to get it.

• 1:12:58Rich Roll?

  I think that's the, the key. First of all, that's the key to not just getting sober, but maintaining sobriety. And I think that's the thing that, that a lot of people fail to really understand. If people have addicts in their life, they just want to find a way to get them help. But they don't understand that, that, that, and that sort of self-initiated desire, that willingness to solve the problem. Uh, you know, on behalf of the person that is suffering has to be, you know, come from within that individual and you cannot will that onto another human being.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:13:33Rich Roll?

  That has to come through their own experience.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Exactly. And you can't force it. And it's important to understand for people either struggling with addiction or their families and loved ones that you're in a continuum. It's, it's, this is life. It's not, I'll go to treatment, do a lot of work, I'll be better and never use drugs again. That's not what it is at all. We're talking again about the unfolding of an individual's development and it takes a lifetime. So the part of the challenge in the way that we treat addiction is that we front load it. And we really do believe that if you work really hard or you send your kid to the right treatment center, or it's the right amount of money, you know, or the right kinds of people are there, they're

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  gonna go and this nightmare will be behind us.

• 1:14:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that, that speaks to the anxiety and the fears of the surrounding family members and, you know, the ego investment in that as well. Like their, their, their own dis-ease, like their lack of ease with what they're, you know, the one who's suffering is experiencing, has to be solved. And that gets solved when you spend a bunch of money and ship them off to a place and then you can sleep at night feeling like that person is being taken care of and that problem is solved.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Right. That person will then have to live life like we all do. And interestingly, one of the challenges that parents face or, or loved ones face in helping people to get sober is when they realize that getting sober may mean that this person will be different, truly different than they used to be. They don't want it.

• 1:15:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  I, and I can't tell you how many parents have said to me, really, and, and suggest, and, and, and beat around the bush about the idea that I, I just, I don't want my kid never to drink again.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  I want them to be able to drink normally.

• 1:15:33Rich Roll?

  Good luck with that. I mean, you know, I had a, you know, my experience with this was that my parents were terrified, justifiably so. I mean, they, you know, they were really concerned about me for valid reasons. And I went to rehab and I was there for a long time. And when I got out, you know, I learned a lot and I was ready and I was willing. Prior to that, I preloaded, you know, my tourism, you know, by going in and out of AA many, many, many times prior to going to rehab. But by the time I went to rehab, I really was ready and I took full advantage of that. And when I came out, you know, my parents came out for Parents Week and the whole thing. And when I completed that tenure, you know, I very specifically remember saying like,

• 1:16:17Rich Roll?

  I'm gonna make some changes in my life. Like, I don't think I'm gonna continue to be the person that I was before. And I don't know what the future version of me looks like, but I have a very strong inclination that it's gonna be very different from what you're used to. And I think that, I don't think they really heard that at that time, because I think there was a sense like, oh, now I'm all fine. And now I'm gonna go be a good boy and I'm gonna go make partner in this law firm, you know, and they can sleep at night. And so there was, there was many years of, of sort of discomfort and trying to re, reimagine our relationship and figure out how we could relate to each other. And it's all fine now, but there was a growing, there was an extended period of growing pains when we were trying

• 1:17:01Rich Roll?

  to figure out what that was gonna look like, because I did change quite a bit. And I think that that perhaps is not fully appreciated in that family dynamic with so many people that go through that process.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, the, the, the thing I would say to anybody who's got a loved one who's suffering, or if you yourself are, are suffering from addiction, the, the, the changes that, that we try to avoid in addiction are forthcoming. And it's a great thing. It's a wonderful thing and it's an amazing ride and you wouldn't want to miss it. Even though everything in us, when we're stuck in addiction, the ego wants to really keep things the same.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  But that that process of of that second bottom that an individual can come to, like what you described when you went to rehab and you were truly ready, or like what happened for me when I had to relapse for a year and understand like, this isn't really the way I want to live my own life, and this has nothing to do with my parents, and this has nothing to do with teachers or society. Me as an individual, I'm truly unhappy and I know it. And now I feel like I have to do something about it, only I don't know what to do. I've been to rehab, I don't want to go back. I've been to meetings. Maybe I give that a try again. You know, so I go to this meeting in New York City and I and I announce, you know, my name's Tommy, I'm one day sober.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Hi Tommy, you know, everybody welcomes me. I go out that night to a concert and I get completely wasted, go back the next day to that same meeting, same group of people, really. You know, I'm Tommy, I'm one day sober. Go out that night, get wasted again. Come, come back the third day in a row.

• 1:18:47Rich Roll?

  How fun is getting wasted, though, when you've got a head full of AA? And you know you've been in a meeting earlier that day and you're probably gonna go again tomorrow.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Completely miserable. Completely miserable. You can't, you're not really getting high, by the way. You're not, you're not getting a relief, you're just, you're just taking drugs in hope for some relief that truly is not gonna come. So it's a real turning point that's coming. You are, you are either gonna survive this thing or you're not. And it's, you can feel it like getting thicker and thicker, more intense by the day. I go back that third day and this, this is the thing that, another one of these sort of divine intervention stories. I raise my hand, I'm Tommy, I have one day sober. Hi Tommy. And this guy finally comes up to me at the end of the meeting and he says, you know, what's your problem?

• 1:19:33Rich Roll?

  Yes, like good New York meeting.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:35Rich Roll?

  He's gonna call you out.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  Oh, he calls me out. What's your problem? And I stutter. He's like, that's right. You, you don't know what your problem is. You have no idea. You know, I bet you think you have romance problems. Oh, I bet you have money and family problems. You know? He goes, you, you may have those problems, but that's not your problem. Your problem is that you're walking around the earth with untreated addiction. And it was like, boom. I mean, it hit me so hard.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  And I was like untreated addiction. And it's not like I didn't understand that I struggled with addiction. But the way he said it, the conviction of it, his presence in my face, you know, he was really up in my grill. And then he said, I'm your sponsor now.

• 1:20:28Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  It was one of those.

• 1:20:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  And I said, okay. And he said, I'm gonna come to your house every day and I'm gonna pick you up and we're going to a meeting every single day now. Are you willing to do that? And I said, yes. And I told him, two months from now, two months from today, I'm supposed to move to San Francisco. And he said, we'll see. Because don't worry about it right now. Because right now, we're going to a meeting tomorrow. And so for 60 days in a row, this guy Neil, took me to a meeting every day. First 20, I was like in 100%. Then all of a sudden, I called him up like, you know, Neil, it's like, I'm totally in, I'm fine. But I don't, I don't really want to go to a meeting today. I'm fine. Everything's cool. I'll meet you tomorrow, we'll go tomorrow.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  He's like, I'll be over in two minutes. You know, it was like that and he was relentless. And he taught me discipline, devotion, dedication, commitment. He got me to a meeting every day. I ended up moving to San Francisco after that 60 days. Got a sponsor right away, started to do the work, actually worked the 12 steps, got involved, started to meet people, shared about my past, heard about other people, let them in, went to coffee after meetings and hung out with people. Truly got involved and changed my life, my attitude changed.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  And from that day that I met him, June 23rd, 1991, I've, I've never had a drink or a drug since.

• 1:22:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's amazing. So Neil is this unbelievable catalyst and the message is really delivered in this, you know, package of selfless service. Like who, who in, you know, in, in your life experience, like shows up for a stranger? In that kind of way, you know, it's like, it just, it doesn't happen, you know, it's a, it's a daily occurrence in the rooms and in this program. But you don't see that walking down the street or in your, you know, experience of your career or even your family at times. It's just, it's a very beautiful, rare thing that is woven into the fabric of this program. And I think when you come in and you're broken and you're resentful

• 1:22:45Rich Roll?

  and you're angry and you're jaded, when someone like that rolls up on you, you're like, what's your angle? What's your agenda? What are you really after? It's hard to like be open with that person and really trust that they are coming from a genuine place.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, this is why I say to people who don't understand the magic and the, the incredible humanity that's available there. You, you, if you don't understand fully 12-step fellowships and 12-step work and the program itself and the fellowship part, you, you really shouldn't make any comment about it. There's, there's, there's some very, very valuable and amazing things there. And you and I are, are, the outcome of our life is tied up with that reality.

• 1:23:30Rich Roll?

  At the same time, it's called Alcoholics Anonymous, right? And anonymity is a cornerstone principle that, you know, kind of defines this program. And I'm interested in your perspective of how you think about anonymity and how you sort of temper or don't temper, like how you talk about 12-step. Because on some level, we're both public figures that are products of 12-step. And I've made a personal choice to not be personally anonymous. I, I don't speak about anybody else, you know, in the program.

• 1:24:11Rich Roll?

  But at times, and what we've just done is kind of speak about 12-step in maybe not the most general terms. So is that a transgression of anonymity? Like, how do you think about that and, and try to, you know, sort of adhere to that tradition and also kind of do what you do, which is try to broaden people's perspectives about recovery in general?

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  Yes, thank you so much. It's a, it's a. It's a question that gets raised for me in a lot of ways that aren't quite as nice as the way you just raised it. And a lot of judgment and a lot of opinion comes usually when people ask me about this. But what I'll say is this.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  Okay, so there's an element of

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  the 12-step world

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  that exists

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  based upon the time in which the program was created and first disseminated. 1939.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  Different world. Different needs. Different situation.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  The the program and the fellowship that grew up around the program

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  needed and needs to protect itself

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  from a misunderstanding about what it is or from other people suggesting that they're spokespeople of a program.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Because what happens if those spokespeople then go out and relapse? Or if they're unsavory people involved in unsavory activities and how does that reflect upon the fellowship that they're a part of?

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  There was also a need in the early days to protect the fellowship from numbers that were too great to manage. At first, there was no infrastructure. There was, there was nothing. There was it would have been overrun by the amount of people that were suffering behind this disease of alcoholism. So they created these traditions, really, they created them later.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  16 years later.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  After they had had 16 years of experience of learning what works here and what doesn't work here. And they talk about anonymity at the level of press, radio and film. What does that mean anonymity? They talk about this being a program based on attraction. Rather than promotion. That nobody should promote for them. That they would not promote themselves. It has to be based on attraction. So for me, I would say this. Nobody in the history of Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous. Any Anonymous. Has ever been attracted into the program.

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  Not one person ever.

• 1:27:15Rich Roll?

  But I think that, but you, to play devil's advocate with that, right?

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:27:19Rich Roll?

  If somebody is suffering and they're listening to, you know, a podcast like this and they hear somebody who, who, you know, sort of has what they want. There's a level of attraction and they say, if I want what that guy's got, maybe I should, should do what he's doing. So that would be an example of attraction.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just haven't met that person. Now, I'm, now I could, that person could be in the world. That's fair. And so I'll retract the previous statement. I'll say, I just never met that person.

• 1:27:48Rich Roll?

  In the work that you do and the voice that you put out into the world has created, I'm sure plenty of people have come into 12-step who have been on the receiving end of your content.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Mostly, mostly you make it to 12-step rooms out of desperation. Not out of attraction. You don't know where.

• 1:28:04Rich Roll?

  Definitely not out of accidents.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  You don't, yes. You don't know where else to go.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Now desperation can look a lot of different ways. You might make it to a 12-step room because a court ordered you to go there. You might make it to a 12-step room because your wife and children are going to be taken away from you if you don't go. Or because your wife or husband says to you, I cannot take this anymore if you do not get help. If you do not attend meetings, I'm going to leave you. You're going to lose your family. And that's, that's a level of desperation. Something gets presented to a person. Where they can't stand it and they have to go.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  I just don't know of any other scenario where anyone could say, "Oh, I was, I woke up and I felt attracted to be one of them. I felt attracted to go to meetings. I felt attracted to do this spiritual work." I hear you. I get what you're saying. You know, but, but, but that's not, that's not a slight against the 12 steps, or against Alcoholics Anonymous, or against anything. It's just to understand that this point is, is what I'm trying to say. If you knew what was going on behind those walls, if you understood the love, the camaraderie, the, the, the passion and enthusiasm of the people to uplift each other, if you understood the level of storytelling and how powerful

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  that is, as a, as a catalyzing agent for change, if you understood how families are healed, how an individual was healed from addiction, if you knew what was going on behind those walls, you would be attracted. And you would be like, "Wow, let me get some of that, because that's amazing. And, and I want some of that magic in my life. And wow, I, I would go after that if only I knew that." But you know what? You don't know what's going on behind those walls, because nobody will tell you. Because it's an anonymous program, and it's based on attraction rather than promotion. And so

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  anonymity, sometimes is confused with secrecy. And I think that's a mistake. Now, Anonymous, I will not talk about you, Rich, in public unless you give me permission to, about the fact that you're a person in recovery from addiction. I know that you speak about it all the time. I don't think you're particularly concerned about someone knowing. But I won't speak about anybody, or anyone else's program, with anybody. It's none of my business, and that's their anonymity.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  But when it comes to me being able to tell a story like the story we're telling today, or somebody asking me what my experience has been, or me writing a book, or me going on a podcast, or a TV show, or a blog, or anything that has to do about my recovery, I absolutely feel not only is it important, but I feel it's an obligation for me to tell the story of how I healed from addiction, so that you know that it's possible, and that you could do it too.

• 1:31:10Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that. You know, I'm on the same wavelength with you on that completely. Because had I know, had, you know, sort of opportunities like podcasts been available when I was struggling, and I could go to iTunes and listen to people talk about recovery, and paint a picture of what it would look like, I might have gotten sober years sooner. But I was walking around with a preconceived idea about what this world was all about, that was based on nothing, probably television shows that I'd seen of church basements and, you know, chain smoking guys in trench coats.

• 1:31:52Rich Roll?

  And I just presumed that this was the dismal world in which I would have to, you know, enter into if things got that bad. And, you know, my experience couldn't have been more radically different from that. But how was I supposed to know? And so to the extent that I can responsibly,

• 1:32:12Rich Roll?

  you know, create a concept of what this might be like for somebody who is suffering, so that they feel welcome and encouraged about exploring it, and to the extent that I can help them overcome the preconceived ideas that they have about what it would be like, I see that as well as a responsibility, as a way of carrying the message. I do get caught up in thinking, am I transgressing that tradition?

• 1:32:41Rich Roll?

  And I'm always confused about where that line is drawn. I'm very clear about other people, I would never venture into that, but when it comes to the entity itself. And so, yeah, I mean, I appreciate you articulating in that way, and I think that gives me additional clarity about how to, about how to handle that.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  Thank you. There's also maybe a deeper sort of thing that we could explore now or another time, but there's a level of shame that seems to go along with the dis-ease of addiction, alcoholism, what have you. The anonymity concept was created to protect the members, so that if you were one of these people who were in recovery, nobody in your world would know, because you didn't want anyone to know. But that covets shame. That protects the shame.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  Exactly. So at what point, at what point do you transcend this disease? At what point? Now, if you are going to hang on to a doctrine that says you never, you never will be beyond this, well then, you have, at least for the time being, relegated yourself to a way of thinking that deems you sick for the rest of your life. What if one day at a time is the way everybody is in the world? Aren't we all on a 24-hour

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  clock? Don't we all have to sleep every day, eat every day? What if one day at a time is just part of the human condition? What if addiction is just nothing more than a particular outcropping of the human condition that actually isn't shameful at all? Now, the behaviors that come out of a person's addiction, yeah, we're all going to be ashamed of stealing, lying, cheating. Any human being will be ashamed of those things at some level of their being, because you understand that it's wrong, that it's against the natural flow, that it's against the things that you believe in. But there's a healing of that

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  once you get better. I could say to you right now, I've lied, but I'm not a liar. I've cheated, but I'm not a cheat. I've stolen, but I'm not a thief. That's not what or who I am.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  There's been a transformation in me. I recognize that I behaved poorly because I was in a very dense state of consciousness in which I would seek to feel better from my disconnection and my disease through the taking of drugs that only made things worse for me. I did that. I'm not ashamed of it, not even in the slightest bit. I don't regret it. I'm not ashamed of it. And I'm not particularly concerned if you have a judgment about me for it. I'm comfortable in my character and my personality today. I've healed to the point where it doesn't matter. So you see, I'm free.

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  Now, if you portray freedom to people who say to you, "It is not possible to be free", you will be threatening. You will be disrupting their way of being, and a great outcry will take place. And the way my friend described it is, "You're in a barrel of monkeys and you're climbing out of the barrel, and the other monkeys don't like it, and they will do everything they can to pull you back down." Now, that's not to say that that's... I'm not referring to people in 12-step programs as a barrel of monkeys. There's no... There's no end to my respect and love for anybody who's working at moving along a continuum of being free.

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  The only thing I'm saying is, at what point do you become a human being on a path of discovery and not just a member of a fellowship? At what point do you move beyond all that?

• 1:36:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, I get that. I mean, that's beautifully put. I think the only caveat I would present you with is that that freedom is preconditioned or, you know, is contingent upon...

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  A continual commitment to progressively growing.

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  Which is the case for every human being.

• 1:37:11Rich Roll?

  Right. So the sense that like, I think, I think baked into the word freedom is this idea, well, you can, now you can just relax and take your foot off the gas and cruise.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:37:20Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:37:21Speaker 01

  I, that's so great. And I think the idea of freedom to most people who are either stuck in addiction or who are in recovery from addiction, the idea of freedom or healing or having recovered means now I can drink with impunity. Now I can use drugs because I'm free. Now I get it. Before I was an addict, but now I'm free. You see, the way I'm looking at it is anybody who seeks to solve their life's problems through something in the outside world that ultimately is addictive is in a state of delusion. It's delusion and it will be played out. You don't have to listen to me. It'll be played out in your life.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  Just like it was played out in my life. When I looked to the outside world through drugs, alcohol, sex, food, gambling, cigarettes, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, to solve my life's riddle. I was on, I had the right destination in mind. The right destination is connection, love, healing, recovery. But I was on the wrong train. I got on the wrong train. And so all I'm saying is we have to get on the right train. And when you've healed and when you're free, you will know it because you no longer have any desire, any desire to go back to the behaviors or the, the, uh, the person that you once were. It's as if, it's like a snake that has completely shed its skin.

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  It's not you anymore because it never was you.

• 1:38:54Rich Roll?

  But to get to that place, there's a lot of work that has to happen. You've got to wrestle with the dark recesses of your soul and, and really figure out who you are. It's, it's a process of birthing the authentic self within so that you can stop jamming that square peg into a round hole. And suddenly that peg fits perfectly. And to get to that place means, you know, making peace with your past and mending those relationships and resolving these, you know,

• 1:39:24Rich Roll?

  Emotional wounds, or overcoming these childhood traumas, to put it in Gabor's terminology, so that you can own your story, speak freely about it, without shame, without being triggered emotionally. And with that comes a sense of not just self-esteem, but self-empowerment that allows you to then be this lighthouse, who then is an attractive, you know, sort of person for somebody who is struggling, or further down, you know, a couple pegs further down on that path. But it doesn't come overnight, and it doesn't come without, you know, you can't circumvent or find some way to growth hack that process.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  And think of the alternative. So you can just, you can continue.

• 1:40:18Speaker 01

  No one is saying you have to do anything. You can, you can stay on your train. And eventually, you yourself will become sick of it. Not because I say so, or your parents say so, or an authority figure of some kind says so, but because inside, you're not meant to suffer in that way. And you will wake up to it. And you will realize, this is unbearable, this is untenable for me. I'm going to have to change, what do I do? And it begins one day at a time. It doesn't happen overnight, it is a lot of work, but what are you doing in the meantime?

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  Being a human being, you think you came here and it's gonna be easy?

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Whether you're an addict, or anybody else on this planet, you think there's anybody that gets away from being human?

• 1:41:14Rich Roll?

  I think we need to reconceptualize, or redefine the word addiction in and of itself. You know, I think that we think of addiction in terms of severe cases, the heroin addict, or, you know, even the bulimic, or something like that. But I think that the vast majority of people, if not everybody, fall somewhere on a spectrum of addiction. You know, how often are you checking your Twitter feed? Like, you know, why can't you stop going to the mall? How much ice cream are you eating? You know, what are you trying to resolve within yourself through the relationship that you're in? Anything outside of yourself can be used as a vehicle for treating your emotional,

• 1:41:56Rich Roll?

  you know, mental and spiritual state. And to the extent that you are doing that on even a very rudimentary level, there is an element, a kernel, a seed, that is inherently addictive, that can be redressed. Even if it's mild, it is there.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  Yes. There's no question that for me, this is a part of the human condition. And it may manifest itself in a variety of different ways and levels in different people. But at the end of the day, when you close the door and it's just you, you know, you know now, here are the things I need to work on. Here are the things that are hard for me. Here are the pains I'm feeling. Here's the difficulty of being me, the difficulty of being human. Like, you know what it is. And you know the things you do, the escape hatches that you

• 1:42:57Speaker 01

  look for every day, to not sit still long enough to face those realities, heal them.

• 1:43:04Rich Roll?

  Well, first of all, you installed them, so you know where they are, right?

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  They're in there somewhere.

• 1:43:08Rich Roll?

  Maybe nobody else does, but you know where they are.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the problem is, you know, the two of the biggest addictions right now are the addiction to having, the addiction to doing. And you have to do to have. So how can we convince people that actually the solution is to stop looking for escape hatches? And to sit still long enough to develop a true, a real and true relationship with yourself? A real and true comfort with yourself?

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  You can, you can look for addiction and, and outlet, you can look for an escape hatch in anything. You know it full well with athletics and you can, you can go there. I've seen people use yoga as a, as a full-on, full-blown way of avoiding themselves. So, we, eventually, we will be brought to stillness. And when we get there, it's a incredible day because we're like, wow, I'm contented just to be sitting still with myself. That's enough. Now, most people never even could imagine such a place, or imagine that they would want that for themselves.

• 1:44:31Rich Roll?

  Not only that, it's becoming more difficult because we're never bored anymore, because we all have a phone in our hands. So, standing in a line, or, you know, wherever you may find yourself, you can always stimulate your brain. And so, you're never, you never have to just be with yourself, ever.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, this is the importance, especially in this day and age, of, of taking immersive experiences. So, you have to, because, and I'm as susceptible to this as everybody, I'm just a human being. So, I have a, an iPhone, I, I get it, I get the pull. And in order for me to really unplug and get away from it, for me, it requires, I, I, I break set, I break the routine. And I do it throughout the year, as often as I can, to continually bring my nervous system back to rest, to continually stop myself from pretending

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  like there's something out there that's going to save me. And the more I do that, the, the, the more relaxed I feel, the happier I feel, the more energy I feel, the more effective I feel. And I realize, in having just gotten to the, as far as I've gotten, I, and I realize how much further there is yet to go, but I also realize, wow, even in the little progress I've made this last 25 years, there's untapped joy to be had in quiet, that I, I've only just begun to explore. And I'm, quite frankly, I'm so excited for the rest of the time I get to experience that.

• 1:46:16Rich Roll?

  I have an intellectual appreciation for that, but as they say,

• 1:46:22Rich Roll?

  you know, this idea that something outside of ourselves is the, you know, the mana that is going to solve our problems. Understanding that not to be the case, and yet, you know, the persistence of that illusion is astonishing, as they would say. And it's so difficult to constantly remind yourself that that is not the answer, that that is not the answer on a moment-to-moment basis.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  And that's the, that's the practice, just like the meditation practice might be just simply to notice that you've been caught up in thinking and to bring yourself back to the breath. It's that same practice, practice, practice, without judgment. And then the other piece of this, which we haven't really gotten into, of course, is, you touched on it before, but service. I mean, when you are available enough to actually show up for somebody else,

• 1:47:16Speaker 01

  the way that Neil showed up for me, the way my father showed up for me, the way my countless teachers have showed up for me, the way you showed up for me today.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  It's, it's where the real juice is. There's a, there's a real alchemy in that. And there's a real joy in that in and of itself. Like, the connection you feel in seeing somebody's light, lights go on when you look at their eyes and you're like, you know, how maybe Neil could feel if he understood how much he affected my life.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  I mean, when, when people have written me and said, "You really, you really helped me."

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  That's a great day.

• 1:47:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's nothing better than that. And there's not going to be a university-led scientific study that will establish that being of service is going to improve your life or make you a happier person. But there is no more indelible truth in the universe. It's, it, it's why every billionaire becomes a philanthropist. You know, it, it, and it is, in my experience, the most joy that I've ever Had the privilege to inhabit has been when I can get out of myself and my small world and invest myself in somebody else. And you know, the podcast is part of that, like the podcast is not about me. The podcast is about celebrating people that I respect and to be able to sit here and put

• 1:48:42Rich Roll?

  a microphone in front of somebody like yourself that I have a lot of respect for, who has a powerful message and, and to be able to share that with a lot of people is an incredible privilege. And yeah, it's a business, but it's also an act of service that gives me incredible pleasure. You know, it just, it, it gilds my life with meaning. And to the extent that, you know, you can find some version of that for yourself in even the smallest way, you know, looking the cashier in the eye at the Ralphs. It doesn't have to be a big deal, but to develop habits around that is the quickest, easiest, cheapest, most facile, most insanely effective way to improve the quality of your day-to-day existence.

• 1:49:26Speaker 01

  I love it. I love it. That's, that's, that's traveling first class to me.

• 1:49:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  I just, I just want to say on that note, I got back from India a week ago now. And when I'm there, the reason I go every year is because I'm encountering these unbelievable individuals that have, in my opinion, achieved a certain level of mastery in life. And they stand as examples of what I could someday strive to become. And, and I need an example like that to, to something to go toward, right? An example of victory, and they really are that. Every one of these people, if I had to say, there's one characteristic that is common to all of them. It's that, it's not that they're, it's not the service that they do, it's that they're

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  in service all the time. There's never a moment when they're not in service. Everything is service to them. It's just an attitude that's, that's in the cells of their body. It's how they traverse the world. It's how they navigate. And it doesn't matter who they come across or what the situation is. There's never a no from these people. It's yeah, of course. Well, yeah, okay. Well, let's talk about it. Oh, okay. Great. This is up now. Let's figure it out. It's one thing after the next. They're just there to serve. They realize that they're not the doer. They're connected to God in a way that lets them understand they're not the doer. They have to take the action, but the fruit of their action is not theirs.

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  And what an incredible way to live, you know, it's just beautiful.

• 1:51:04Rich Roll?

  That is amazing. That's beautiful that you, you know, are able to go and have that. You do that. You go every year?

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  Every year. You, you, you come with us next year.

• 1:51:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Where do you, where do you go specifically?

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  We go to Rishikesh in the north and we, there's a beautiful festival called the International Yoga Festival there. And then we, we, we bring groups of people in recovery out there. So we just did a Recovery 2.0 immersion there. Uh, so we had 25 incredible people in recovery coming to just immerse in spirit and recovery and yoga meditation. And we had a wonderful, just immersive experience in India. So, uh, yeah, that's a yearly, annual occurrence for us.

• 1:51:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's beautiful. Well, let's talk about Recovery 2.0. Like, I'm interested in your thoughts about sort of innovating or iterating on traditional 12-step, not in a, not in a, you know, replacement model, as we said before, but in a supplemental or complementary kind of way. So talk to me about, you know, how you approach that and, and, you know, where all of this comes from.

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  Recovery 2.0 is really a, a, a, a, a community of people that believe we, we honor all paths to recovery. If you are asking me or, or a Recovery 2.0 person for help because you're struggling in addiction.

• 1:52:29Speaker 01

  We would refer you to a 12-step program if you were willing to go there. Because many of us have had success there. Some of us, though, are Smart Recovery people. And some of us have had success there. So they might refer someone to Smart Recovery. I've had direct experience with Noah Levine and Refuge Recovery, the Buddhist approach. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very powerful. Other people have had great success, myself included, with Y12SR, yoga, and 12-step recovery. That's Nicky Meyer's work.

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  Other people are more of a Christian approach, more of a religious approach. That's Celebrate Recovery. We're all into it. See, whatever you have chosen as your path of recovery, or whatever you're willing to embrace, we'll support you along the way. It's not about this way or that way. It's always, as long as it works. Now, if you hit a wall, or you struggle, or you're relapsing and you need to try something different, we'll help you with that. We'll help suggest different ways that you can approach this challenge in a different kind of way.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  If you tell me, "I'm really, I'm open and I'm willing to try the 12 steps," great. I can refer you, I can help you to understand how that process works. If you're not open to that, we'll find something else for you. In the meantime, Recovery 2.0 puts out yoga videos, meditation videos, nutrition videos, lifestyle videos, spiritual videos, interviews with experts, all kinds of stuff that can help inspire a person and give them applicable tools to move along their path of recovery, whatever that path of recovery is.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  Now, very soon, we'll release our, we'll launch our membership community online, which is coming up, I believe, in July of this year, which is exciting. And that will be a place where we can serve the needs of people in recovery, and their families, and people who work in the field, every day. There'll be live streams every single week from experts. There'll be different community engagement things you can get involved in each week, an entire library of teachings that you can look at at will, different suggestions for books and podcasts that you can get into. All kinds of teachings and wonderful lessons that will help a person to grow their spiritual

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  life, to grow their physical life, to grow their mental and emotional life as well.

• 1:54:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's beautiful. So, you know, an online virtual community of people, but also, you know, in-person events. I know you guys do, you do retreats and, you know,

• 1:55:08Speaker 01

  We do trainings.

• 1:55:09Rich Roll?

  Kripalu and, you know, SLN and all these places like that.

• 1:55:12Speaker 01

  We do workshops throughout the year. We do, uh, we do variety of retreats. We do immersions, so spiritual immersions. And then we do, uh, coming up soon, we're going to be doing our Recovery 2.0 training program, where we start to train people to do the work that we're doing. So they can go out and help folks in this kind of way.

• 1:55:33Rich Roll?

  Right. But a key, you know, kind of cornerstone aspect of all of this is yoga and meditation. Right?

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  Yoga and meditation, in my opinion, it just is going to make your life sweeter and your recovery stronger. Uh, mainly because if we can agree that addiction is disconnection, yoga is all about union. If we can agree-

• 1:55:54Rich Roll?

  That's the definition of the word itself.

• 1:55:56Speaker 01

  Literally. And it really is, yoga delivers you, you know, to the, to the state of oneness, to the state of union. And so, we also can look at addiction as a sense of lack. And, and yoga brings you back to a state of wholeness. Uh, addiction is a state of dis-ease. Yoga delivers ease to the mind and body. So it's, it's so complimentary, uh, to life as a human being. And particularly for people who struggle with addiction, it, it helps you to rebalance and rebuild your nervous system, rebalance the endocrine system, strengthen the body, calm

• 1:56:35Speaker 01

  the mind, reconnect you spiritually with yourself, your higher self. So it's, it's such a wonderful thing. Of course, meditation, it's going to help you calm the mind. It's going to get you the ability to be still, as we spoke about earlier. And, uh, as my teacher likes to say, you know, Tommy, he says, Tommy, you need to fall in love with the subtle.

• 1:57:01Speaker 01

  You need to be thrilled by the subtle. And as an addict who was always looking for impact, who was always looking for anything but subtle.

• 1:57:11Rich Roll?

  Subtle, like where are the fireworks?

• 1:57:13Speaker 01

  Right. And so what I've learned experientially is I have truly fallen in love with the subtle.

• 1:57:21Rich Roll?

  Who was your teacher?

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  Guru Prem. My teacher is Guru Prem. He lives here in LA. He is an amazing man and he's given me endless gifts on this path of discovery, as he would call it. And among those gifts has been the ability to use my breath for all the breath can do and also to enter a meditative state and yoga and all these teachings. So this is key. Nobody's required to do yoga who doesn't want to do yoga, but I say to people in recovery, you always want to be a scientist for yourself. Explore. Try. You can give it a try. If you don't like it, then you at least you had an experience with it. You can say, this wasn't for me.

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  But you want to not get into that writing things off without having direct experience.

• 1:58:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I, my introduction to yoga was right after I got out of rehab. And it was like, I felt like I was home. Like I needed, you know, I needed new friends. I needed a new community of people, like a healthier crowd. And it definitely served that. But it was, you know, it was like, I don't know what to do with my time anymore. If I'm not going out at night. And I just gravitated towards yoga, fell in love with it. And I think one of the things it did for me, you know, as somebody who had been an athlete and knows how to be in the body and also was in kind of an intellectual career and knowing how to be in my mind, I had bifurcated these things. And we like to think about, you know, sort of mind, body, soul, spirit, whatever,

• 1:58:52Rich Roll?

  and differentiate these things. We don't understand that these are integrated systems that are part of a greater whole that cannot be disinterlineated from each other. And yoga is a great, beautiful practice, process of helping you to understand that these things are all working together. And it's a methodology for enhancing the synchronicity of how you're functioning emotionally, mentally, spiritually and physically.

• 1:59:18Speaker 01

  I love it, Rich. And this is, this goes all the way back to the beginning of our conversation, talking about how addiction hits us on four levels: mind, body, spirit and time. And so recovery has to treat us on all four levels and yoga happens to do that. It improves mind, body, spirit, and it also improves our relationship with time, brings us to the present moment. And the ability to enjoy the present moment for what it is.

• 1:59:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's interesting that, you know, meditation is baked into the 12 steps. Um, but I think it gets short shrift. It's not, I think it's the bastard stepchild of all the stuff. You know what I mean? Like you kind of rush through this really short meditation in general, you know, most of the meetings that I go to. Um, but to really take that one seriously and expand upon it and understand that there's a whole world to explore within that.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  And the founders of, of, of the big book, uh, of the 12 steps, essentially Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob. They were the first to say, there are elements in this book that are incomplete. They knew that. And they said, we are going to have to see.

• 2:00:24Rich Roll?

  How dare you?

• 2:00:24Speaker 01

  I know. They were very clear about it. They've written about it openly and most people, if you, if you just search, you'll, you'll find so many references. Bill Wilson in particular saying, we're, we don't know everything. We're going to have to look for outside help. And I think in the world of meditation, what's presented in the original text, the big book, what's presented is a, a form of contemplation. That I happen to think is beautiful and very powerful. From the yogic standpoint, it's not meditation at all. But that doesn't matter. There are different looks at what this thing is, but at that point in 1939, when this book was written.

• 2:01:05Speaker 01

  They, they devoted one and a half pages to this idea of meditation. And it was a form of contemplation, of being quiet, of asking questions and allowing answers just to come. And it's a beautiful process. And then as a person desires to get deeper into meditation, they can, they can look for more.

• 2:01:26Rich Roll?

  It's actually prescient that in the 1930s, these two guys, you know, had, had the foresight to put meditation into this book. It's not like people in the United States were meditating in the 1930s. I mean, I'm sure there are people that were, but it wasn't a thing.

• 2:01:47Speaker 01

  It, it comes straight out of, of, of essentially the Christian mystic tradition. And they were exposed at the time.

• 2:01:57Speaker 01

  There's an incredible book I'm thinking of. It's called Not God.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  Not God. It's the history of Alcoholics Anonymous, written by, I'm forgetting his name. It could be Ernest Kurtz. Incredible documentation of the early days when these guys were exposed to first century Christianity. And the first century Christians were, basically, they'd come to the conclusion that, listen, before there was a church and before there was any of this, there was those first years after Jesus was gone. What was going on then? You know, what was happening then? And so they decided to sort of adopt a lot of those practices. And in fact, there was contemplation and meditation going on as a direct teaching from Jesus Christ.

• 2:02:42Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. And so that's the source material for how that ended up in?

• 2:02:46Speaker 01

  So they figured, we need something that can tap into a person's ability to connect more deeply with God. And, and, and, you know, that was from the Christian tradition, that was the form of meditation that would bring you closer to God. And so they have, they speak in simple terms, which can be expanded upon by anyone who's thirst for more takes them further. But in simple terms, you would sit and you would get very quiet and be very still and be very open and not have any agenda. But to ask a question. And just to allow whatever download would come. Just to allow it. And

• 2:03:29Speaker 01

  the better and better and deeper and deeper you would go into this and get at this would be essentially what you're doing is you're developing intuition. It's the development of intuition through contemplation. That's a very Christian practice going back.

• 2:03:44Rich Roll?

  Fascinating. That's absolutely fascinating. Well, speaking of inching closer to God, I want to switch gears a little bit. There's something we gotta talk about. Which is this sudden cultural obsession with ayahuasca. So let's talk about the work and the medicine.

• 2:04:05Speaker 01

  Sure. Thank you. I don't know if you know, I wrote an article on this.

• 2:04:09Rich Roll?

  I did. I read it.

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:04:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:11Speaker 01

  All right. So, good.

• 2:04:14Rich Roll?

  And I'll just preface this by saying that this has come up on the podcast before. And it's come up quite a bit with many of my friends who are exploring in this world. Some more than others, some a lot, you know, some to an alarming degree. And as somebody who's never done it, I don't have judgment on it and I'm not sure what to think of it. Like, I'm reluctant to form an opinion on it, but when it gets presented to me as an avenue for enhancing my sobriety, I sort of think of it as, it's like telling an alcoholic that, or an addict, that the solution to their problem lies in a mind-altering substance. Like, that's good news, right? That's news I want to hear.

• 2:05:00Rich Roll?

  And that's very dangerous territory for me. The red flags go up and I'm like, I don't think that's such a good idea for me. But it keeps coming up and more and more people are talking to me about it. And I know there's a lot of listeners out there who are sort of in that similar position, who are trying to form an idea of what this is about and whether it's right for them.

• 2:05:24Speaker 01

  Everything in the natural world has a value, has a purpose, has a meaning. There's nothing that's wasted. Ayahuasca has a place.

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  In the world of recovery,

• 2:05:47Speaker 01

  I mean, you're getting down to the most core discussion of what are we after? And what were we always searching for?

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  And in all the places that we've looked, all the effort we've put in, all the drugs we've taken, the alcohol we've drank, the ways we've acted out in other addictive ways to solve the riddle, to try and figure out, who am I? How am I to be in this world? How can I find peace and contentment? How can I get beyond the suffering of my condition?

• 2:06:28Speaker 01

  These are the questions.

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  As long as we depend upon any experience in the outside world, it will own us. We will never find the peace we're looking for.

• 2:06:47Speaker 01

  Ayahuasca as a catalyst for a person's spiritual development?

• 2:06:53Speaker 01

  It's possible, show you something, give you a glimpse of something. Understand, I'm not coming from direct experience. I have no experience with it, so I can't speak from direct experience. I've taken an unbelievable amount of psychedelics of a variety of kinds, but not ayahuasca.

• 2:07:15Speaker 01

  People come to me all the time.

• 2:07:18Speaker 01

  I'm thinking about doing ayahuasca in recovery. What do you think?

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  I say, "Well, why do you want to take it?"

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  The answer is because there's something about my reality that I cannot currently accept. And I hope that by taking this medicine, I'll be changed in some way, or reality will be changed in some way, so that then I can find peace.

• 2:07:51Speaker 01

  That's pretty much the answer for everybody. I'm suffering, I'm unhappy, and I don't know how to get through it.

• 2:08:01Speaker 01

  So I've tried-

• 2:08:02Rich Roll?

  Or the potential to shift your perspective on your reality by opening a certain window that is not available to you without altering your way, altering yourself in that way.

• 2:08:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so again, there's a reason and a purpose for everything in the natural world.

• 2:08:23Speaker 01

  I'll tell you why I... There's two reasons why I don't take ayahuasca, or have no interest in it.

• 2:08:33Speaker 01

  One is because I found what I was looking for. And that's probably the most important thing to understand, because the way I found it was through the work of yoga and meditation, going inside.

• 2:08:47Speaker 01

  You could say, "Well, Tommy, didn't you take lots of psychedelics back in the day?" Yes, that's true. "Didn't those psychedelics bring anything positive to your life?" "Oh, absolutely." "They absolutely did. They gave me a glimpse." I couldn't integrate that glimpse at the time. It didn't help me recover from the addicted state in which I was. But it gave me a glimpse of something meaningful and something hopeful, that maybe someday I could touch upon that some other way. That's hopeful.

• 2:09:19Speaker 01

  At that time in my life, that's what I had available to me. So I don't regret it.

• 2:09:26Speaker 01

  As a person who understands addiction, and who's been in recovery for 25 years,

• 2:09:32Speaker 01

  even if I hadn't found what I was looking for, here's the other reason why I wouldn't do ayahuasca.

• 2:09:40Speaker 01

  I understand my mind. I've been looking at it a long time. I've paid very close attention to it, particularly over the last 15 years.

• 2:09:51Speaker 01

  My mind works in such a way that

• 2:09:56Speaker 01

  when I have an experience that is pleasing or helpful, I'm thinking about doing it again.

• 2:10:04Speaker 01

  I've never had a pleasing or helpful experience that I didn't think about doing again

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  in my life.

• 2:10:12Speaker 01

  There was never a one-off. "I love that. It was incredible. I'm never doing that again."

• 2:10:19Rich Roll?

  I can see where this is going.

• 2:10:21Speaker 01

  That's not how I work.

• 2:10:24Speaker 01

  The reason I don't or wouldn't even consider for me and why I would advocate for most people in recovery against ayahuasca is because it will begin a certain kind of thought process that I think is detrimental to the makeup of people who have struggled with addiction. And I know for me, I have no desire to start that thought process. I don't want to get that beast going. The way that I live my life, the practices that I have, the teachings that I've been privy to are enough for me.

• 2:11:06Speaker 01

  I have really good days and sometimes I have hard, challenging days. But on those hard, challenging days, it's never, "This shouldn't be the way it is." I know that I'm having a hard, challenging day because I have to learn something and if I wasn't challenged, I wouldn't learn it. If I then go out into the world and I seek a medicine to fix me for my hard, challenging day, for me, I feel like that's saying to the universe, "This should be other than what it is. I shouldn't be feeling this hardship, this pain, this suffering, this grief." That's for me. Now, I'll try to put myself in someone else's shoes.

• 2:11:50Speaker 01

  Imagine you haven't found what you're looking for. You're on a path of recovery. You're not taking drugs and alcohol anymore, but you're unhappy, really unhappy. You're miserable. Maybe you've just experienced a divorce. You could be a man or a woman. Maybe you've lost somebody dear to you. Maybe you're in a codependent relationship and you feel like it's killing you and you don't know how to get out. Maybe you're stuck in another form of addiction like gambling or cigarette smoking or overeating. Maybe you're really heavy and you despise your body and you feel negatively about yourself.

• 2:12:33Speaker 01

  And yet, here you are, maybe you've come through the 12 steps and you've gotten rid of the drugs and alcohol, but you're miserable in your life on this path of recovery and you wonder, "Wasn't there something more?"

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  So that's the person who hears about ayahuasca, that all of a sudden starts thinking, "Well, maybe there is something more."

• 2:12:55Rich Roll?

  That's the thing that I've been looking for, or that's the thing that is gonna solve this problem.

• 2:13:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. Now, I can't sit here and say, "Nobody should do this medicine." That's ridiculous. I bet there are many people who have benefited from it. And I bet there are other people who have gotten hurt from it. To me, as a person in recovery, the question I'm asking myself is, "What is missing from my life? What misunderstanding do I have that is bringing me to this place of pain and suffering?" I know that the way I perceive the world and the experiences that I have in the world

• 2:13:44Speaker 01

  are based upon my level of consciousness at this moment. A person might say, "If I take ayahuasca, maybe I can bounce myself out of this level of consciousness and feel something else." I would say, "If you don't match that with a program of recovery which has depth and weight every day of your life, then you'll just be reaching out into the outside world for another drug."

• 2:14:13Rich Roll?

  And then it's gonna be every Tuesday.

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  Or, or, or then it'll be just simply in the back of your mind as, "Hmm, maybe I could do that again someday, or maybe some other thing will come along someday." Or, and maybe this is the case for someone, I, I'm not saying this is not the case, maybe there's someone who took it, got to see what they needed to see, and then got onto a path of recovery and started to do the sustainable work of healing. But I would caution anybody against thinking that by taking a substance of any kind, that it can be the solution that brings you closer to God. I think that is a total illusion and delusion.

• 2:15:01Speaker 01

  And I think the work of being human is 24 hours a day, one day at a time. I don't think there's a magic pill of any kind. I think that meditation and yoga is a sustainable way to visit the wonderland of your consciousness and go to not just the places that any substance could take you, but everywhere else. I think it takes time to learn those techniques, how to do that. But I think what we're all searching for, the love and the connection and the oneness and the sense of purpose and why we're here, I think it's available to people, you know, in a myriad of ways that don't include any external substance.

• 2:15:44Rich Roll?

  Right, sure. But I think, I think when you kind of contemplate, first of all, I really appreciate that well-thought-out response that was beautifully put. When you contemplate this in the context of our, you know, hyperdrive culture, where we want what we want, when we want it, you know, the way we want it, and we're all trying to, you know, sort of shortcut our way to all, to meeting all of our wants and needs, there's going to be this idea that I can either spend, you know, all this time meditating, you know, next 10 years of meditating to like master meditation, so I can get some level

• 2:16:26Rich Roll?

  of, some sense of higher awareness that comes with that, or I can just drink this tea and just take the superhighway there immediately, right? That's a, that's, that's sort of more in line with how we function socially right now. So that's what you're competing against.

• 2:16:44Speaker 01

  Yes. No, I recognize, and thankfully, I'm not competing against it.

• 2:16:51Speaker 01

  But I

• 2:16:52Rich Roll?

  But I mean, it's sort of a competition of my hearts and minds, you know what I mean? Like, this is where most people's heads are at. Like, they don't, it's like, I don't wanna, you know, why waste all that time when I can do this?

• 2:17:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:17:02Rich Roll?

  And get there right away?

• 2:17:03Speaker 01

  It's a, it's, well, to answer that question,

• 2:17:07Speaker 01

  someone who would ask that question, "Why waste all that time?" is in a very, very addictive relationship with time. And is already in the, in the way of living of bringing on, hopefully, a desired future that will be better than this present moment. And is therefore living in illusion.

• 2:17:32Speaker 01

  Because it will never get better than now.

• 2:17:34Rich Roll?

  That is the truth, and let that bend your noodle, right?

• 2:17:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean that.

• 2:17:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. No, it's, it's, that's profound.

• 2:17:42Speaker 01

  Well, the, the, the level of if-then thinking of the human race, okay. Everyone should ask themselves this question. "When's the last time I did something simply for the joy of doing it, not for what it might bring me later?" For example, did you go to the gym today? Really and truly because you had joy, real, true joy in the gym? And it wasn't about how your body would change as a result of you going to the gym? Or what might happen later? Or how somebody would think of you with your newfound body from going to the gym? Did you go to the gym for pure joy? How about yoga? Did you really go to yoga class today?

• 2:18:28Speaker 01

  Because you wanted to connect in with yourself? Did you connect in with yourself when you got there? Was it joyful? Or was it some later moment? "Maybe I can get that, that yoga body that I've seen, and I can get those Lululemon pants, and it's gonna just be the right look for me to get the right things that I'm trying to bring into my life."

• 2:18:47Rich Roll?

  Or who, or who else is gonna be there?

• 2:18:49Speaker 01

  Or who else will be there? You know, are you going to eat food today? Based upon a diet that you're on that will bring about a certain kind of effect? Or can you really just naturally just enjoy a meal today? Not overeating, not throwing sugar and processed food down your gullet, but just being able to sit and connect with people? When's the last time you had a meeting that wasn't a meeting? That wasn't about work? That wasn't about making money? That wasn't about a networking connection? When's the last time you met with somebody because you loved them? And you only wanted to talk to them?

• 2:19:33Speaker 01

  And you wanted to give them your full attention? And you turned your phone off? And you couldn't, you didn't want it to end? Because the connection between you and that person, and I'm not talking about a lover? Or someone you were trying to get to go to bed with you? I'm talking about a friend? A family member? Somebody that needed you and you were present for them? And they were present for you? So this is what we need to cultivate into our lives is presence. The future, if we're living for a future that may or may not show up? We are, time has us? We are in time-bound consciousness? And we are gonna forever be trying to find a way out of that suffering?

• 2:20:13Rich Roll?

  That's a beautiful place to end it, I think. That was incredibly powerful, what you just said. I appreciate that. We're like well over two hours here. We gotta wrap it up. But I can't let you go without sort of imparting a little bit of wisdom for the people who are listening, who are perhaps still suffering or caught in some cycle of addiction that they've been unable to crawl out of? You know, so where does somebody begin to address what has previously been unaddressed or under addressed in their lives? So that they can grow and heal?

• 2:20:54Speaker 01

  The, the beginning of, of change at any level? Whatever, whether you're trying to get sober from an addiction today? Or you're already sober and you're trying to make a, a, a health change in your life of some kind? The, the thing that has always done it for me is community? So I have to have, number one, I have to let somebody know about what I'm feeling, honestly? And what I'm trying to achieve?

• 2:21:24Speaker 01

  So if I'm trying to get sober, it turns out that being around other sober people is a huge asset. It actually unlocks possibility. So the first thing I'd say is whatever you're trying to change, don't be alone with it. That's number one. If you continually try to keep it to yourself, whether you're ashamed of yourself, which by the way, you shouldn't be because we've all been through it. Or there's some other reason that you're keeping this to yourself. Let that go, drop it. Find somebody trusted in your life. Or step into a community of people who are doing this kind of work and tell them the truth. That is going to help a tremendous amount. Next thing is aside from the community,

• 2:22:06Speaker 01

  you can begin to adopt any of the many, many pathways to greater health and healing that exist. For example, if you're trying to get sober, check into one of the 12-step programs. If you're absolutely, positively unwilling to go to a 12-step program, would you consider working one-on-one with a therapist? If you're absolutely unwilling to do that, would you consider some alternative path? Maybe it's refuge recovery, as we spoke earlier, or celebrate recovery if you're a religious person. Or if you're an atheist, maybe, you know, pursuing some other form of recovery, but that brings you into community with people

• 2:22:49Speaker 01

  who are walking along a pathway. So those are the two things. You need a path and a community of support. And if you're willing to go after those things, you can beat whatever it is that you're facing. You can overcome any addiction. And you can heal. And on the other side of that is joy and amazing purpose and incredible opportunity to be the version of you that you desire yourself to be. So I strongly wish that for you.

• 2:23:19Rich Roll?

  And if you're unwilling, then you need to keep doing your research until you are willing.

• 2:23:24Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes, if you're, if you, if you just need to stay alone with this thing, I, I, I want your suffering to become so intense in this minute, that 60 seconds from now, you'll realize, okay, uncle, uncle, uncle.

• 2:23:39Rich Roll?

  And you're willing to do anything.

• 2:23:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:23:41Rich Roll?

  Right? And the excuses go out the window.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:23:45Rich Roll?

  Beautiful, man. We did it. That was fantastic. Thank you so much.

• 2:23:50Speaker 01

  Thank you, Rich.

• 2:23:52Rich Roll?

  You're a beautiful soul, and I really appreciate the work and the heart and the intention that you put out into the world. You're helping a lot of people, and you are a beautiful, shining example of service. We need more people like you. We should clone you. But the community that you've built, I guess, is the closest thing to cloning you, right? And, and so for people that are listening, what you sort of omitted from your beautiful speech is that they can find resources and help in the Recovery 2.0 community. So check that out. It's, the website for that is Recovery 2, how does it spell out?

• 2:24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, the best thing to do, because when we launch our membership community, it'll be a different URL, but just Google Recovery 2.0.

• 2:24:36Rich Roll?

  Right. And your website is TommyRosen.com.

• 2:24:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:24:39Rich Roll?

  Learn more about him and pick up his book, Recovery 2.0. And I'm excited to see where you take all of this, man. Where, are you doing any events coming up that you want to announce?

• 2:24:51Speaker 01

  So it's all on your website. It's all, it's all on the website. There's, there's so much coming, so many opportunities. And if you want to explore this recovery thing, just come find me, come give me a hug. I'll be looking for you, and, and we'll get into it.

• 2:25:05Rich Roll?

  Or maybe I'll see you walking down the street in Venice.

• 2:25:08Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 2:25:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Awesome, man. Well, come and talk to me again sometime. This was really fantastic.

• 2:25:14Speaker 01

  Thank you, Rich, so much.

• 2:25:15Rich Roll?

  All right. Take care.

• 2:25:16Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:25:17Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:25:25Rich Roll?

  All right, we did it. I hope you guys enjoyed that, especially those of you out there who had been petitioning me to do an addiction and recovery focused episode. And if today's episode resonated with you, if you're somebody out there who is currently struggling with drugs and alcohol, I just want to say this, if you don't want to, you never have to use or drink again. So please reach out for help. Don't wait. Extend yourself. Get out of your rut. Ask for help. I know it's hard, especially when you're caught in that dark, lonely place, that prison, that cycle of addiction. But I'm telling you, it can literally be the difference between living and dying. It saved my life here in Portland 19 years ago, and I assure you that it can save yours as well.

• 2:26:09Rich Roll?

  I also want to thank all of you guys out there who shared your favorite episode of the podcast to honor our 300th episode with the hashtag RRP300. We picked the winners, five men and five women who are going to get signed copies of Finding Ultra and Jason Camiolo, my engineer, should be in touch with you about that. So congratulations, and I look forward to doing another contest. Again, that was super fun. If you're looking to get more plant-based meals into your daily routine, but you're too busy, or you're not quite sure how to do it, we have a great new product for you, our Plant Power Meal Planner. And what I love about this is that it solves all of the problems and creates ease and facility around adopting a plant-based, a

• 2:26:53Rich Roll?

  plant-centric lifestyle. Because the truth is, eight out of 10 people who try to go plant-based end up lapsing. And that's tragic. And the reason for that is that they either don't have the tools, or they don't have the resources, or they can't find the time. And that's why we created this program for you. It's essentially thousands of plant-based recipes right at your fingertips, unlimited meal plans, grocery lists. In fact, we even have grocery delivery in 22 metropolitan areas via Instacart. Everything is totally personalized and customized based on your goals and your food preferences, your allergies, your time constraints. We have amazing customer support from a team of experts. We're getting amazing feedback. Basically, people are really loving it. And what's great

• 2:27:36Rich Roll?

  is that it solves that problem. You don't have to lapse, or you don't have to enter this from a place of confusion or unknowing. It basically provides you with this incredibly robust toolkit to make eating plant-based super facile. So, check it out by going to meals.richroll.com or clicking on Meal Planner on my website. For those of you who are interested in my daily training and preparation for the Odllo World Championships, Swim Run World Championships, coming up pretty soon at this point, early September in Sweden, you can follow me on Instagram, I'm @richroll there, as well as on Strava, where I'm sharing my daily workouts, especially on Instagram stories. I kind of go behind the scenes and tell you what I'm doing every day. So, check that out. And if you would like to support

• 2:28:21Rich Roll?

  this show and my work, share it with your friends and on social media. That's a great way to do it. Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, iTunes, click that subscribe button. And also, you can support my work financially on Patreon. And thank you. Big love to everybody who has done that. I really appreciate it. Also, I should mention that every week, I send out a free newsletter. It's called Roll Call. It goes out every Thursday. It's essentially five or six things that I've come across over the course of the week, generally articles, podcasts, a documentary, a video, or a product or two. Things I've enjoyed, things that have inspired me, things that I've found useful and informative. No spam, no affiliate links. I'm not trying to sell you anything. Just good stuff. So, if that sounds interesting

• 2:29:02Rich Roll?

  to you, you can subscribe on my website by just entering your email. And look forward to receiving that in your inbox every Thursday. And while you're at richroll.com, we also have signed copies of our books, Finding Ultra, The Plant Power Way, This Cheese Is Nuts. We have Plant Power t-shirts and all kinds of cool, plant-power-oriented swag and merch. I want to thank today's sponsors, Bowlin Branch, the first honest and transparent bedding company that only uses sustainable and responsible methods of sourcing and manufacturing. Go to bowlinbranch.com today for $50 off your first set of sheets by typing in the promo code richroll. And of course, Harry's, a superior shave at an affordable price. Friends For the Rich Roll Podcast, you can visit harrys.com/roll to redeem your free trial

• 2:29:45Rich Roll?

  set, which comes with a razor, five blade cartridge, shaving gel, and post shave gel. All you pay is shipping. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiello for audio engineering and production and help with the show notes and also help with outreach with respect to the winners of the RRP 300 contest. Sean Patterson for all his talents and artistry on the graphics and theme music, as always, by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. Thanks for your attention and I appreciate you guys more than you'll ever know and I'll see you back here soon. Peace. Plants. [music]